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It was fun while it lasted

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1979scotte
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It was fun while it lasted

Postby 1979scotte » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:53 pm

Any thoughts on this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-41585323

Didn't realize anyone had died on the Evo.
Probably a good thing if the police shut it down.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:25 pm

My thoughts are.
It is the scorpion and and frog fable again.

Tighten up here it will move somewhere else. Another road will be used. Thats the way it is

Very personal view here.
It is sad when a loved one dies. But people die.
You cannot cheat death. When it's your time, it's your time.
We, will all die at some point. We all effectively have our own egg timers with the sands of time running.
When and how, is generally an unknown.

I have electricuted myself twice possible three times, have had major brain surgery and put 1 car in a ditch on its roof.
But I am still here.
Somebody somewhere today will have died from eating or choking on a peanut or being stung by a bee and going into anaphylactic shock. Or doing a bit of DIY missing the last step of the ladder, stumbling and impaling themselves on a screwdriver or clonking their head.

When it's your time, it's your time.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby 1979scotte » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:00 am

I am not sure being plowed into by a 21 year old doing 107 in a Clio can be put down to fate tbh.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales- ... s-40119462

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:59 am

That's just it. It is.
If it wasnt by means of a clio. It would be something else. But the result would be the same.
Proverb.
Fate, is often met, on the path taken to avoid it.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Topdownman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:02 pm

It is a shame that some nice driving roads transformed into some sort of rite of passage almost, destination through social media/youtube etc. People could maybe not go to the Nurbergring but they could get to Wales to do the triangle. The Black mountain road has also become a victim of its own success and is now a 40mph limit because of it.

It was never a good idea to have everyone heading for the same few roads though and I suspect the last time anyone from EVO went there was not long after they first published it.

The clio incident was very sad but I suppose the driver would have been driving like that whether on the triangle or on other roads until something happened?

If you do find some nice roads, best to keep them to yourself now.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Joesson » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:11 pm

I did write what I thought to be an eloquent response but lost it in my efforts not to double post.
So, I will simply say that Fate maybe Fate but I sincerely hope that mine is not determined by some twonk in a Clio.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:27 pm

Or a 5

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby 1979scotte » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Joesson wrote:I did write what I thought to be an eloquent response but lost it in my efforts not to double post.
So, I will simply say that Fate maybe Fate but I sincerely hope that mine is not determined by some twonk in a Clio.


Amen.
Have driven it twice and haven't come close to killing myself let alone anyone else.
Don't remember any police presence either.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Joesson » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:40 pm

Ardent wrote:Or a 5


Could Fate be that cruel?

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:27 pm

1979scotte wrote:I am not sure being plowed into by a 21 year old doing 107 in a Clio can be put down to fate tbh.

What would you put it down to?

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:48 pm

Joesson wrote:
Ardent wrote:Or a 5


Could Fate be that cruel?

Seemingly so.
In a popular newspaper yesterday, the following report appeared.
A mother celebrating her 50th, was gifted a tandem parachute jump.
A solo jumper collided with her and the instructor at 15k ft.
All became tangled and unable to open their chutes.

There is a huge amount of space up there, but, on that day, at that time, in that very specific space........................

Or a year or two ago. A woman walking her dog along the beach on christmas/boxing day. Was hit by a falling rocks.
A few seconds earlier or later and would have been fine. But no.

In the last couple of months in Madeira. On their holyist of holy days.
A limb from a 200 year old Oak tree let go and crushed 14.
There is a back story to this that runs much deeper and shows how cruel fate can indeed be.
The shrine they had just left was untouched.

I would have been very interested in your eloquent response. Any chance or re typing it?

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby shnazzle » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:22 am

No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Mikeymead » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:28 am

shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Yes but can you argue that it wasn't fate that was causing him to be driving like a numpty at that time, the truth is that we will never know....

Fate like God is very subjective.
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Re: RE: Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby shnazzle » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:41 am

Mikeymead wrote:
shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Yes but can you argue that it wasn't fate that was causing him to be driving like a numpty at that time, the truth is that we will never know....

Fate like God is very subjective.
A man-made concept/crutch to provide emotional comfort and acceptance of a bad situation.

Nothing wrong with that at all! It's good.

Each his own. I reckon, whatever allows your brain to reach a decent state of calm/function is a good thing.

Some face it head on (the "let's talk about it" crew) to line things up and make peace with things.
Others coat the events in a comforting wrapper (religion, fate, blame, vengeance, etc).
Others choose more drastic escapes.

There's no limit to coping mechanisms and nobody should be chastised for using any, within moral/ethical boundaries.

But on topic; completely inevitable and you know for a fact that once a route gets a name like evo triangle, its days are numbered.

As said before, keep it to yourself or between a very small group of friends.
We share routes on here, but I would imagine the "use" is so sporadic it would never be on anybody's radar.

Publishing a time trial route in Evo magazine sealed its fate. Surprised it lasted as long as it did.

I'm surprised there aren't speedbumps on Hartside Pass to be honest. How many helicopters are called out there a year?
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 pm

shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.
That sounds like my view of fate.
Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
Correct. We will all die one day. Just the means and time are usually unknown.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.
Fate would have happened. The numpty is a distraction here. If it wasn't them, then it would have taken another form, perhaps a blow out, gone off the road etc etc.
All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Given the 3 actual real life examples in my post above yours. (11:48) of steps that collide in an unfortunate end result.
Where is the numpty in these cases?

Same with the rocks (clio) scenario. A couple of seconds (or less) either way and totally different outcome.
But at the precise moment at that precise place. That was their time.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Carolyn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:42 pm

**** happens.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Treboeth » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:16 pm

Carolyn wrote:**** happens.



Even more so when people drive cars well beyond their capabilities.

I would imagine this is welcome news for people who actually use these roads as part of their daily lives.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby smarty2072 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:29 pm

I can see the argument for fate.

However, as a result of drivingly recklessly and unlawfully this idiot has taken another persons life - this is not fate, as the situation was / is totally avoidable.

If it could be deemed as ‘fate’, then I don’t see how they could be convicted of anything?
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby 1979scotte » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:34 pm

shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Put quite well.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Carolyn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:01 pm

I do have to agree that there can be no sympathy or tolerance for muppets who use public roads as a race track. They deserve the full consequences of the law. If you really want to drive like a hooligan; that's what race tracks are for.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:58 pm

Carolyn wrote:**** happens.

My point exactly.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:11 pm

smarty2072 wrote:I can see the argument for fate.

However, as a result of drivingly recklessly and unlawfully this idiot has taken another persons life - this is not fate, as the situation was / is totally avoidable.
Yes they have. But the point people continually miss or choose to ignore, is. if not by the clio, they would have died by some other means
If it could be deemed as ‘fate’, then I don’t see how they could be convicted of anything?
Convicted of breaking the law


I refer again to the three cases I have put forward earlier.
No one has put forward a reasonable explaination for these events.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Ardent » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:18 pm

1979scotte wrote:
shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Put quite well.


I agree. But don't forget, it works both ways. We have all heard of cases where people have missed trains or planes and things have gone wrong. Fate, at that monent for them, was in their favor.

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Re: RE: Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby shnazzle » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:37 pm

Ardent wrote:
1979scotte wrote:
shnazzle wrote:No such thing as fate. Everything follows a logical series or steps. Sometimes these steps collide in an unfortunate end result for us.

Fate to me imposes some kind of notion of whatever the sequence of events is, the "fate" is set in stone.
It's rather the opposite. "fate" would never have happened if numpty wasn't driving 107mph down that road.

All consequences of our actions or someone else's


Put quite well.


I agree. But don't forget, it works both ways. We have all heard of cases where people have missed trains or planes and things have gone wrong. Fate, at that monent for them, was in their favor.
Hmm... No not really.
Again, all of this predicates on the notion that their demise was imminent, regardless of the series of events that occurred. Which is logically flawed. "Their time" means that there is a predestined time. Who has set that? This is where you get the religion camps.
So, there is no argument, as you can't argue a belief system. Moot point.

With billions of people each following their own pattern every second of every day, there are going to be tons of "collisions". Some can be overcome, some are welcomed, some are fatal.

Carolyn truly did summarise it most accurately; sh1t happens. Why? Because it's inevitable. Just as finding a 20 pound note on the floor or just walking past a falling building sign with centimeters to spare.

It's simple probability and chaos theory.

And it's those theories that have lead to the limits on the evo triangle.
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby smarty2072 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:00 pm

Ardent wrote:
smarty2072 wrote:I can see the argument for fate.

However, as a result of drivingly recklessly and unlawfully this idiot has taken another persons life - this is not fate, as the situation was / is totally avoidable.
Yes they have. But the point people continually miss or choose to ignore, is. if not by the clio, they would have died by some other means
If it could be deemed as ‘fate’, then I don’t see how they could be convicted of anything?
Convicted of breaking the law


I refer again to the three cases I have put forward earlier.
No one has put forward a reasonable explaination for these events.


Not sure I miss the point, I just take issue with the original incident referred to in this post being fobbed off as ‘fate’. Obviously we are all mortal so will die eventually, that’s not in question.

However, I wager you have never knocked on someone’s door and told them their loved one is dead as a result of the irresponsible behaviour of a third party, and then followed it up with “but hey, it’s fate really, if it wasn’t this guy driving recklessly then something else would have got them”.

This incident is so NOT fate (in my opinion and that of the legal system of this country).
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby Joesson » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:08 pm

It would seem that “Fate” has been something to ponder for some time-

Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all.
Alexander the Great

Alexander may have been referring to the actions of his soldiers before a battle, the discipline of one soldier affecting the “fate” of his comrades, but on a broader scale if every action has a consequence or reaction then what any one person does interrelates infinitely with the actions of others. Even my writing this, and it then being read means that the reader is doing something other than what they would have been doing if I had not written.

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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby delhusband » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm

"This great question of predestination and free will, of free moral agency and accountability, and being saved by the grace of God, and damned for the glory of God, have occupied the mind of what we call the civilized world for many centuries". Robert Green Ingersoll
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/robertgree719177.html?src=t_free_will
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Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby delhusband » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:30 pm

“Man blames fate for other accidents, but feels personally responsible when he makes a hole in one.” Anon.
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Re: RE: Re: It was fun while it lasted

Postby shnazzle » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:02 pm

Joesson wrote:.... if every action has a consequence or reaction then what any one person does interrelates infinitely with the actions of others. Even my writing this, and it then being read means that the reader is doing something other than what they would have been doing if I had not written.


This is exactly what I was referring to. Call it the butterfly effect if you want. It fascinates me massively. As you say, you writing that, could mean one of us is reading it with interest, which may be delaying us from getting in our car and crossing paths with a lorry that at that second may have missed a red light.

It's mind-boggling (in a very fascinating and spectacular way) how many variables are at play at any time in any situation. It's like the world's most mental chess game. If people could foresee 3-4 steps ahead of every influential factor in any situation, you could actively prevent or circumvent it. Alas, we cannot.

Scary how little control we have over anything.
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It was fun while it lasted

Postby jonbill » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:34 pm

There’s a great episode of in our time that debates free will & determinism. Every action you take is the unavoidable consequence of what happened before.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z5y9z


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