Hi all,
I have been researching recently into a project car that I can get behind and keep as an evolving long term project, the car will be a project car so not a daily driver but still usable on the road, I don't yet have the project car as of yet as I am in the process of moving house.The new house has plenty of garage/workshop and driveway space to be able to tweak and mod the car moving forward without the worry of needing to get it back together right away if I were a daily drive.
I will be planning on completing this project in stages, I wanted to just lay these out below as an example of what I am planning to do on the car, I will also be running the car down Santapod to get an idea of the 1/4 mile time, the low stock weight of the car is one of the reasons I have decided to chose this car. Please note that I am planning on a 2zz swap, but will have 2 x 2zz engines, one will be stock internally, the second will be built up whilst the other engine is in the car
Phase 0 - initial baseline
Stock 1zz engine
Stock weight
Service and check car over
Remove precat material
Phase 1 - bolt on mods on 1zz engine
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Shortshifter
Stock weight
Phase 2 - Bolt on mods on 1zz with moderate weight reduction
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Basic 'unbolt' weight reduction - tool kit, spare wheel, AC if it has it
Aftermarket wheels (small weight saving but unsprung weight)
Uprated suspension, brakes etc (possible weight saving)
Phase 3 - Maximise stock 1zz power to weight
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
More drastic weight reduction - carpet/sound deadening, trim
Possible swap to lightened hard top with soft top removal
Phase 4 - Initial 2zz swap (engine 1)
Stock 2zz engine (swap kit with mounts, PnP ECU harness etc)
Intake and exhaust mods
Lightwieght flywheel
Uprated clutch
Uprated in tank fuel pump
Weight reduction as per previous stage
Power FC with commander
Phase 5 - Lightly boosted 2zz (will allow test fitting of forced induction parts such as manifold and exhaust without pulling the engine)
Stock engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Baffled oil sump
Weight reduction as per previous stage
Power FC with commander
Uprated injectors
Small turbo (to be decided)
Intercooler setup (to be decided)
Phase 6 - built 2zz swap (engine 2)
Forged 2zz - forged rods, forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Darton dry liners
Uprated clutch
Uprated gearbox (to be decided)
'Stage 2 or 3' camshaft
Ported cylinder head
Turbo (to be decided)
Uprated valvetrain
Uprated driveshafts
As you can see from the planning above I will be doing everything in stages with the initial swap for a stock 2ZZ engine being a way to test fit everything and see what the performance gains are with the different configurations, initially I will be looking to see how far the stock 1ZZ can go with a few bolt ons.
One thing to note is that I am going after power to weight ratio, having an easy 2zz swap on the cards means that I will be able to bolt in the engine the car really should have had when it launched, it will be a learning curve and I know that things will break which is why it won't be a daily drive but still have an MOT and run on normal fuel.
A slight side note, I have previously owned an RX7 FC3S, I do find piston engined turbos and fuel systems quite small in comparison, the fuel system on the FC before I sold it had 2 x 550cc injectors as primaries with 2 x 1680cc as secondaries, I also had an inlet manifold that could take a further 4 injectors if needed.
I first heard about how good the 2zz can be tuned by reading about Frank Profera's compound charged Lotus, I don't plan to go that extreme but it shows how far it can be taken for power to weight:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/epcp-1007-2005-lotus-elise/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/epcp-1007-2005-lotus-elise/)
Here are some initial power and weight goals - using an online 1/4 mile time calculator:
Stage 0 = Stock 1zz engine = 140bhp, Stock weight 996kg - 143 bhp per ton, 15.81 quarter mile @ 86 mph
Stage 4 = Stock 2zz engine = 190bhp, weight reduced to 900kg - 214 bhp per ton, 13.6 quarter mile @ 100 mph
Stage 6 = Fully built 2zz = 400 bhp, weight reduced to 850kg = 478 bhp per ton, 11.46 quarter mile @ 123 mph
Note, a bone stock FC3S can run a 14.2 second 1/4 mile @ 99.02 mph - have found it hard to find a car that could possibly match it considering the you can easily run 4-500bhp out of a 13b, issue with the FC3S is that they are now getting rare and also starting to rust away, wanted to look for a slightly newer car with the same sort of light weight potential.
Will be getting the car in the next 3 months or so, currently doing research but will be looking at a 2003 or later face lift model with the standard 6 speed box.
I am of the opion if you plan to go forged 2zz forced induction you may aswell just keep the 1zz and forge that.
You will need a stronger transmission. The C series box is only good for 250 torque.
I have gone for V6 because i want more torque and the gearboxes are stonger.
FC3S i had to google.
RX7 not scared of burning a little oil then.
Pretty sure a 2 will handle a bit better and a good 150kg lighter. FL are a bit heavier. Mine was 1050 when corner weighted. Half tank fuel.
Hopefully use less oil and fuel too.
Also if planning an engine swap anyway why not buy something with a shot engine.
If you want a good car Shieldsontour has one for sale good car last time i saw it.
Quote from: "1979scotte"I am of the opion if you plan to go forged 2zz forced induction you may aswell just keep the 1zz and forge that.
You will need a stronger transmission. The C series box is only good for 250 torque.
I have gone for V6 because i want more torque and the gearboxes are stonger.
FC3S i had to google.
RX7 not scared of burning a little oil then.
Pretty sure a 2 will handle a bit better and a good 150kg lighter. FL are a bit heavier. Mine was 1050 when corner weighted. Half tank fuel.
Hopefully use less oil and fuel too.
Also if planning an engine swap anyway why not buy something with a shot engine.
If you want a good car Shieldsontour has one for sale good car last time i saw it.
There seem to be more parts for the 2ZZ and I also like the fact that it has VVTL-i rather than just VVT-i, there is an easy standalone ECU swap with the PFC and the 2ZZ block is apparently also stronger in terms of its makeup and has a better flowing head.
I will be looking to fit a Toyota E153 gearbox I think, again its a long term project but the gearbox should be able to handle the power, considering the gearbox will only need to be uprated with the fully built 2ZZ engine I have a while to get part together.
The FB was the 1st generation RX7, the FC3S was the 2nd generation (ending in 1991) and the FD3S was the 3rd and final generation (ending in around 2002), there was also the Mazda Cosmo with the 2 litre 20B 3 rotor which can be boosted to around 1,200bhp, or go for a custom 2.6 litre 4 rotor with around 1,600 bhp - think there is also a 6 rotor someone is building. There is a lot of misinformation with the RX7s, they are meant to burn oil, they run a total loss oil system, the engine has an oil metering pump which injects oil via the oil injectors to keep the rotors lubricated - the oil can't exactly drain back into the sump as the whole housing is the combustion wall. You can however just switch over to running 2 stroke oil in the fuel or run a conversion kit to run 2 stroke oil via the OEM oil metering pump. Also, the higher the engine spins, the more the apex seals seal against the housing meaning even more power - basically make sure that the engine doesn't run lean on boost and it will be fine. Its usually the owner or a bad tuner who messes the engine up rather than the engine design itself, need to get the engine up to temp before driving it off due to the mix of metals expanding at different rates. The RX7 was the last proper rotary powered car made, the RX8 was terrible in comparison, chassis was good, engine was rubbish as it was NA - anyhow I digress.
I am planning an engine swap at some point, probably in about 2 years time, I would like to drive and enjoy the MR2 in the mean time though and I would also need to source the parts and go through the engine to check everything before installing it.
Thanks for the update in the car weight, until I actually get the car weighed I don't know where I am starting from, should be able to pull a fair bit out with just unbolting items anyhow - I would rather go with the FL car due to the extra chassis braces which do add weight but are beneficial.
No offence meant.
I know how a rotary engine works. Whatched a video only last week. s;) ;) s;)
I love the FDS3. I always think of it as THE RX7.
There is a PFC for the 1zz too.
Tbh i think the pfc is past it. I know it plugs straight in but you cant run a map sensor easily and i dont think it accepts afr or egt input. Link monsoon or ECUmaster would be my choice.
2zz rods are way way stronger.
Yamaha know how to design a head no doubt.
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH BRACING.
Especially in a ragtop.
Quote from: "1979scotte"No offence meant.
I know how a rotary engine works. Whatched a video only last week. s;) ;) s;)
I love the FDS3. I always think of it as THE RX7.
There is a PFC for the 1zz too.
Tbh i think the pfc is past it. I know it plugs straight in but you cant run a map sensor easily and i dont think it accepts afr or egt input. Link monsoon or ECUmaster would be my choice.
2zz rods are way way stronger.
Yamaha know how to design a head no doubt.
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH BRACING.
Especially in a ragtop.
No worries, I am just passionate about rotary engines, its a shame they aren't around anymore, the FD3S is the RX7 everyone really knows, I just went with the FC3S as I liked the classic lines plus its got a single turbo and much more engine bay space rather than the slightly problematic twin turbo setup on the FD.
Hmm i will look into ECU options, I had a Greddy Emanage Ultimate in the FC, with the wideband O2 it could map itself whilst driving along which was handy, will look at some options, the PFC was the go to choice on the FD.
Stronger rods are always good, I think the 1zz rods are cast but I guess it also had a fairly low power output as stock.
Yeah ideally you want a coupe rather than a soft top for a sports car, I have had 3 mk1 MX5s and they were fine but its always odd when a sports car seems to mean its a soft top when its actually detrimental to the handling of the car - will be bracing the thing up don't worry!
We dont talk about MX5s.
They are the mx5
Quote from: "1979scotte"We dont talk about MX5s.
They are the "car with engine in wrong place"
This would be why I have seen the error of my ways and have joined this forum s:) :) s:) a mate of mine had a mk3 ages ago and was always raving about how it would out corner pretty much anything.
I would look to do something like a K swap into it due to the additional parts I could get, but I feel that the 2ZZ is the engine the car should have been shipped with so I am pretty much finishing it off so to speak - at least its still a jap engine s:) :) s:)
I can see that Monkey Wrench Racing have swap kits for them but I would rather stay with the 'standard' 2zz swap, good news is that it looks like they have a plug and play patch cable for the E-manage ultimate which is great as it was rather a faff trying to source patch cable for the FC to then manually splice in the connectors.
Love the plans. Seems like you have a set plan of attack. Never a bad thing at all. My build thread may be able to help you with the 2zz turbo aspect of your build. As for a tuning solution I went with aem ems4. Seems to have much more features then others available and more safe guards. Looking forward to seeing more of your build. Originally I actually wanted to swap in a rotary to the mr-s but saw the 2zz as a piston version of just that . The motors are very similar for being so different in even the core basis of design. They just behave similar.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "trackkingracing"Love the plans. Seems like you have a set plan of attack. Never a bad thing at all. My build thread may be able to help you with the 2zz turbo aspect of your build. As for a tuning solution I went with aem ems4. Seems to have much more features then others available and more safe guards. Looking forward to seeing more of your build. Originally I actually wanted to swap in a rotary to the mr-s but saw the 2zz as a piston version of just that . The motors are very similar for being so different in even the core basis of design. They just behave similar.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Will check your build thread out as well, I will also check out the AEM system along the way, I don't think I need to go full Motec but need something better than a megasquirt!
I might look to collapse the engine build down slightly and the 2zz build will be the fully built engine just initially running without boost so that I don't need to drop and swap an engine twice.
For the forged engine the plan is:
Forged rods (still deciding on brand)
Wiseco forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Stage 2/stage 3 cam from MWR (will decide on this at a later date)
Uprated valve springs + retains
Stock sized valves, might look at upgraded valve options but not really needing to go for a higher than stock rev limit
Uprated oil pump
Baffled sump
Stock head, lightly ported to match gaskets
Water/meth injections
Main cost for the project engine is that I am going to get some Darton dry sleeves installed in the block which will allow me to happily run whatever piston I want without the MMC causing issues, will also help keep the bores round on boost - high cost due to machining but will allow me to reuse the engine again if it needs re boring out.
I will also need to look into gearbox options as although the stock 1ZZ 6 speed with LSD fits on the 2ZZ, I would need the box to be stronger so need to see whats out there if I am unable to upgrade the internals - want to keep the LSD.
E153 box is the common big power swap but its only 5 speed and the ratios could not be optimal.
EA series diesel boxes have been done. 6 speed good choice of ratio but more complicated and expensive.
Quote from: "1979scotte"E153 box is the common big power swap but its only 5 speed and the ratios could not be optimal.
EA series diesel boxes have been done. 6 speed good choice of ratio but more complicated and expensive.
I know that MWR have an E153 conversion kit but it's big money, might be able to source the box myself and then get the adaptor plates etc if I go that route - wonder if you could run the E153 box and change the final drive ratio? I guess the other option is the drop in a 3S-GE engine with forged internals meaning that I could bolt on the E153 box as standard. One of my project car parameters was to not do engine swaps as those are usually fairly expensive and can be harder to get running, because the 2zz is a direct drop in I don't really see it as an engine swap so the MR2 qualifies for the project car.
Also noticed this thread on a Lotus forum with someone running almost 400whp out of a stock block 2ZZ, it was on E85 though but will be interesting to see which box they were running:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160/391-whp-stock-2zz-turbo-179386/
Will have a look to see what turbos I have sitting on the shelf, think I might have some a few smaller turbos kicking around but looks like the GT30/35 sized turbo should be around the right size, t28 is also an option as I know those are fitted onto the 1.8 MX5 engines.
Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.
I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.
Jubu gears?
Expensive.
Think mattperformance had them fornhis track car.
I believe they handle more than what they are rated too.
Unlikely C and E cogs can be swapped it would have been done.
C is tiny E is huge.
Dont put a 3s engine in they weigh a ton. My V6 is lighter.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.
I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.
Isn't that what Mattperformance had on his 450+ hp track car? And uprated drive shafts right?
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"Gearboxes are the main reason i dropped the 1zz.
The S54 on my V6 so much stronger.
I have found some uprated gears for the stock box but I don't think they will suffice in terms of torque, wonder if there is any commonality between the C and E series boxes to be able to swap the E gears into the C box.
Isn't that what Mattperformance had on his 450+ hp track car? And uprated drive shafts right?
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
I thought tx400 had JUBU gears but i could be wrong.
It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Have you seen the price of the JUBU gears!
£730 just for 3rd and 4th.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "shnazzle"It does. So if it can handle that much... Seems good enough for me. I'd not sacrifice the good 1zz box unnecessarily. Unlikely any of us are going to run 350+ on it anyway.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Have you seen the price of the JUBU gears!
£730 just for 3rd and 4th.
I guess it's due to the fact that it's quite a specific need, I am going to look into different box options, have a while before I need to work something out - would be interesting to see if the gears from the Toyota E boxes fit in the C boxes - is it just a case that the OEM gears fail or are there other shortcomings when adding power to the box?
Just checking out some other threads on other forums, seems that around 250bhp or around 285 ft/lb torque is the limit with 3rd gear being the weak link along with the driveshafts.
It would seem that the C transmission is great for the 1zz and 2zz in lightly boosted applications but not for the power levels reliably above that - looks like I will probably go with the E153 swap as an option, need to see what parts are required and perhaps source the box separately and then get a conversion kit for it, I can then work out gearing to see if I need to change the final drive.
Another thing that flagged up was the lack of an oil cooler on the C transmissions vs a cooler on the E transmissions so it also sounds like the heat also kills the C transmissions.
Just doing some additional reading it seems that the MWR kit isn't that good, coupled with the e153 being quite heavy, it seems that some are offering upgraded transmission setups for the C64 transmissions fitted to the Lotus to make them work better with 3rd and 4th seemingly being the issues:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25/better-c64-transmission-310161/
https://www.blackwatchracing.com/product-p/1031.htm
https://www.blackwatchracing.com/Blackwatch-Ra-C6X-Upgraded-3rd-4th-Helical-Lotus-p/1240.htm
It also seems to show that its the hard launches or wheel hop that really breaks the box so I need to look into how I can reduce this without going for drag radials etc, when I do drag launches I don't really hard launch, I usually slip the clutch which when builds up engine load spooling the turbo quicker and giving a smoother launch.
I have also read that someone had some truck gears swapped into the box instead - might look to see the compatibility between gearboxes, Toyota might use the same gear splines so might be able to find something beefier to swap out 3rd and 4th from an OEM perspective - its a bit like those who run TDI gearbox parts in higher BHP petrol applications.
Just doing some additional research I might look to change my plans slightly with regards to big power (might still be on the cards at a later date though mainly due to the gearbox power issues.
I have run some calculations with regards to quarter mile drag times in terms of bhp per ton and found that its calculating that to run a very respectable 12 second pass its suggesting around the 250bhp per ton mark.
This would mean that I could run a low boosted 2zz engine to then just about retain the stock box (perhaps adding in an oil cooler) to get to a 12 second pass.
I am attacking this from 2 directions regarding reduction in weight and and increase in power, by using a figure of around 950kg it would seem that I would need to get around 225-250bhp out of the engine to get to the goal. If I can pull slightly more weight out of it (perhaps running with only the driver's seat) I might be able to get into the 12s with around 220bhp.
Need to look into this gearbox issue, the power issue isn't the problem but its being able to transmit the power down without needing to go massively custom and expensive.
At the slightly lower power levels needed from the 2ZZ engine I might be able to get away with simply running uprated pistons and rods rather than bore liners etc.
You can get 250bhp out of a 1zz with T25/28 and a decent map.
My turbo 1zz makes 235.
Have seen rotrex 2zz pumping out 300bhp on stock internals and box.
Low torque doesnt stress the mechanicals.
Quote from: "1979scotte"You can get 250bhp out of a 1zz with T25/28 and a decent map.
My turbo 1zz makes 235.
Have seen rotrex 2zz pumping out 300bhp on stock internals and box.
Low torque doesnt stress the mechanicals.
Thanks for this info, I did google around asking about the 1zz max power on internals and most are saying its ok on '6 psi'....6 psi on what turbo? GT45 lol
I might look to tweak my plan slightly and perhaps turbo the 1zz initially and see where that gets me, I know with some VAG/Audi mapping they run a reduced torque map if running on stock rods to stop them bending, might be able to do the same with this project's ECU mapping.
I really do like the idea of the VVTL-i 2ZZ though, could look to swap out the rods in the 1zz for a bit of safety - what boost level are you running with your setup? It seems that with your current power output and around 960kg the car could run a high 12 1/4 mile.
Will have a further research into different setups - thanks for the info!
Definitely not 6psi as the SP240 kit runs closer to 9psi. 6psi is the stock wastegate pressure for the T25 turbo used
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"Definitely not 6psi as the SP240 kit runs closer to 9psi. 6psi is the stock wastegate pressure for the T25 turbo used
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
As mentioned before, the size of the turbo would also need to be taken into account as 9psi on a gt35 would flow far more than a gt28 for example.
I am now tempted to look at boosting the stock 1zz but then still look to build up a 2zz at some point as well. I didn't know that the 1zz could be boosted over 200, will look to get an AEM ECU as that will do both the 1zz and the 2zz in the future with the addition of the VVTL harness add on.
9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.
Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.
Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.
Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.
Anything that will mate to a t2 or a t3 flange is good because you can get the cast manifolds from either Denmark or Bulgaria and they arent too dear.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"9.72 psi on a TB2559 which is not a great turbo but gets the job done.
A gt2554r would be good for a 1zz on stock internals but not for a 2zz.
Even a GT2860RS doesnt flow quite enough for the 2zz i think people go for the 2871.
For a 2zz i would go rotrex tbh.
Its what i wanted for my V6 but i may have to get a cheaper eaton roots unit instead.
Ah a Saab 9000 turbo, might look at the K03 or k04 turbo as well as I know you can get mid 300bhp out of the K03 on the TFSI engines so might be another option as they are quite cheap and plentiful. Will check out compressor maps.
Anything that will mate to a t2 or a t3 flange is good because you can get the cast manifolds from either Denmark or Bulgaria and they arent too dear.
Ah, will check out some t3 turbos I think, guessing I would need a different manifold for the 2zz though as (just guessing) the head stud pattern won't be the same? Which supplier did you use to get the manifold btw? Can only really see the 2zz manifolds floating around.
Isn't Viet Tran selling a nice 2zz turbo (t3 I believe) manifold on Facebook?
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"Isn't Viet Tran selling a nice 2zz turbo (t3 I believe) manifold on Facebook?
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
The turbo part of this project is probably about a year away - need to actually get the project car first lol.
Are the 1zz and 2zz turbo manifolds interchangeable?
m http://tuning-parts.bg/manifold/1324/ (http://tuning-parts.bg/manifold/1324/) m
the ammount i times i have posted that link is silly.
Mitch i was going to suggest rotrex but Scotte beat me to it. If those maximum torque figures are accurate then you can still make up to 350bhp at 6500rpm.
I have a c30-74 rotrex on a shelf somewhere, should push about 260 on an internally stock 2zz, c30-94 will get 350bhp. Plenty of power!
C30 94 Is the one to go for.
m http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/super ... -kits.html (http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html) m
Quote from: "jonty"Mitch i was going to suggest rotrex but Scotte beat me to it. If those maximum torque figures are accurate then you can still make up to 350bhp at 6500rpm.
I have a c30-74 rotrex on a shelf somewhere, should push about 260 on an internally stock 2zz, c30-94 will get 350bhp. Plenty of power!
Thanks for the info, will look into the rotrex although I personally prefer turbos as its simply using waste energy to make energy rather than using up engine power to make power - guess it's probably due to always having a turbo.
Will weigh up the pros and cons of it, I think if I size the turbo correctly there shouldn't be any lag, would still have to run oil lines for the Rotrex plus mount the SC on the engine and run belts vs the turbo which would simply bolt onto the exhaust, going the turbo route it seems that as the 1zz and 2zz manifolds are interchangeable I could simply unbolt the setup from the 1zz and bolt it onto the 2zz engine.
Another option COULD be to run nitrous on the stock 1zz engine, using the AEM ECU it might be a way to run a wet shot nitrous kit progressively (aka no 'fast and the furious' style!) - would give me the power level but without the added weight as I wouldn't need full power all the time.
Here is a revised plan now that I know the 1zz can run some pretty respectable figures (although will still look into nitrous):
Phase 0 - initial baseline
Stock 1zz engine
Stock weight
Service and check car over
Remove precat material
Phase 1 - bolt on mods on 1zz engine
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Shortshifter
Stock weight
Phase 2 - Bolt on mods on 1zz with moderate weight reduction
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
AEM ECU
Uprated injectors
Uprated in take fuel pump
Basic 'unbolt' weight reduction - tool kit, spare wheel, AC if it has it
Aftermarket wheels (small weight saving but unsprung weight)
Uprated suspension, brakes etc (possible weight saving)
Phase 3 - Maximise stock 1zz power to weight
Stock 1zz engine
Intake and exhaust mods
Lightweight flywheel
Uprated clutch
More drastic weight reduction - carpet/sound deadening, trim
Possible swap to lightened hard top with soft top removal
Phase 4 - Forced induction on stock 1zz
Stock 1zz engine
Turbo/supercharger
Intercooler/charge cooler depending on space, weight and complexity
-------------- Increased power past this point requires a better gearbox ------------------------------
Phase 5 - built 2zz swap
Forged 2zz - forged rods, forged pistons @ 9:1 CR
Darton dry liners (piston dependent)
Uprated clutch
Uprated gearbox (to be decided)
'Stage 2 or 3' camshaft
Ported cylinder head
Turbo/supercharger from 1zz engine
Uprated and lightened valvetrain
Uprated driveshafts
Notes:
Limiting factor on this project will be the gearbox, I don't want to go with an E153 box due to additional weight and incorrect gears, I have seen that black watch racing does have uprated gearboxes for the Lotus including an uprated gearset but its in the US and its big money. Unsure why Toyota have such chocolate gearboxes owing to the fact that they make high power engines, will have to look into options without breaking the bank too much as at this rate the box will cost more than the engine and several times more than the car.
Will be looking into turbo and supercharger options as well as possible nitrous use instead of a turbo or supercharger on the initial 1zz build - I could swap rods out in the 1zz engine however the issue is the gearbox it seems so I can easily make more power but I won't be able to transfer the power onto the ground.
Initial target time for the project is to run a 12 second 1/4 mile pass, I have a feeling that the boosted 1zz might be able to make this target but it would depend on how low I can get the weight considering the car is already very light (one of the reasons behind going for the MR2 mk3).
WIll be running the AEM ECU as this is a simply plug and play setup onto the factory loom and will allow me to simply configure the ECU to the engine, would need an VVTL-i connector when the 2zz is dropped in.
Hi m1tch
I agree with Rotrex option. They are brilliant units and ultra efficient.
Also, turbos don't use waste energy, they actually are less efficient than a Rotrex. By using exhaust gas they slow the gasses and create excess back pressure (remember turbo lag?) which hinders engine performance. But once boosting the added boost advantage exceeds the back pressure to give greater benefit than hindrance. The Rotrex makes constant boost always providing extra air to the engine and is proportional to engine speed so it does not bog the engine down at low speeds, actually helps significantly. Only thing you might miss is the sudden whoosh of boost from a Turbo coming off lag but that is what introduces people to hedges and ditches... Then again, a 2ZZ with Rotrex would still 'whoosh' when the cams come on as the engine breathes better and takes off. Nice thing is it keeps its power band with the Rotrex.
But good luck with your build, I look forward to the progress.
Quote from: "MrT"Hi m1tch
I agree with Rotrex option. They are brilliant units and ultra efficient.
Also, turbos don't use waste energy, they actually are less efficient than a Rotrex. By using exhaust gas they slow the gasses and create excess back pressure (remember turbo lag?) which hinders engine performance. But once boosting the added boost advantage exceeds the back pressure to give greater benefit than hindrance. The Rotrex makes constant boost always providing extra air to the engine and is proportional to engine speed so it does not bog the engine down at low speeds, actually helps significantly. Only thing you might miss is the sudden whoosh of boost from a Turbo coming off lag but that is what introduces people to hedges and ditches... Then again, a 2ZZ with Rotrex would still 'whoosh' when the cams come on as the engine breathes better and takes off. Nice thing is it keeps its power band with the Rotrex.
But good luck with your build, I look forward to the progress.
Will initially running the car NA and get everything maintained and upgraded where needed, will have a look at the Rotrex options when the time comes to run forced induction, if the turbo is correctly sized then it shouldn't mean any lag, I do see the appeal of a linear power curve, however without swapping out the pulley I can't run less or more boost or change the boost depending on gear etc.
Fair points, and there isn't a one fits all solution. Well almost, someone finally did what I thought of ages ago, fitted a planetary gear to a Rotrex type traction drive with a secondary electic motor to adjust SC speed or even spool it up at idle. That gives you everything you just asked for, Turbo and SC benefits... But only OEM development at the moment.
Quote from: "MrT"Fair points, and there isn't a one fits all solution. Well almost, someone finally did what I thought of ages ago, fitted a planetary gear to a Rotrex type traction drive with a secondary electic motor to adjust SC speed or even spool it up at idle. That gives you everything you just asked for, Turbo and SC benefits... But only OEM development at the moment.
Hmm that's an interesting proposition, would certainly be an interesting way to run different boost levels or as you said run an amount of boost on idle, I will defiantly look into the option when I come to it, now that I know that the 1zz is ok for some boost as well as the gearbox being ok to take a bit more power it opens up a few more options.
Currently looking into the baffled sumps you can get, I believe the 1zz sump is slightly baffled vs no baffles on the 2zz, but I would be looking to run a larger baffled sump day to day as it seems that the oil capacity is quite low whereas it uses a huge volume of coolant!
Still looking at all of the options, good news is that I should be moving house this week so I will have a garage to support getting the MR2 and space to work as well.
Looking at all of the options so far I think I will be initially going for the 1zz turbo route when I do go for more power than simple intake and exhaust bolt ons (after the brakes, suspension and weight saving).
I can see that the 1zz rods are the weak point but these could be swapped out and not need the engine to be sleeved as its not got the MMC coating like the 2zz engine. Still deciding on if I want to go with a 2zz swap as 1979scotte has mentioned that you can get low 200bhp from a lightly boosted 1zz on stock internals which is slightly more than an 2zz swap (although NA).
I will still consider a 2zz swap at some point, however I would need to budget in a gearbox rebuild (to swap in the LSD etc) plus possibly sleeving the 2zz block to run aftermarket pistons - might as well stick with the 1zz engine and forge that instead.
I have a feeling my upgrade path will probably be:
Stock 1zz full weight
Stock 1zz with bolt ons
Stock 1zz with bolt ons and weight saving
Lightly boosted 1zz
Rebuilt 1zz with lower CR pistons and forged rods running light boost/slightly higher boost every now and then
To be fair the engine will probably be fine with low boost on stock internals, but its more about peace of mind knowing that the internals are meant for boost for me to upgrade - also need to make sure that the bores are oval as well!
Moving into my new house this Friday so will take a few weeks to sort out a few things before looking to buy the project MR2 - measured up the garage yesterday ready for it to be turned into a workshop s:) :) s:)
All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.
Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.
Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.
Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
Thanks for that, I think if the mileage on the 1zz engine was lower I might have looked to lightly boost it on stock internals, think I will instead go with the 2zz swap instead and simply enjoy the 1zz power for the time being whilst I tidy up the car and sort any issues I find.
I might look to get my hands on a 2zz and then swap out a few parts before the engine goes in, checking lift bolts, timing chain, oil pump, sump and might look to swap out to lower compression pistons as I know the stock 2zz rods are fairly beefy.
I have my eye on the AEM EMS4 standalone ECU, I am guessing you can simply swap over the base maps when the engine is swapped out and use the stock connectors etc as the ECU would then know which ECU pinout is which on each of the looms.
Hopefully will pick the car up new weekend but I already know there are a few things that need attention:
Full oil and filter service (running aftermarket panel filter already)
Front and rear number plates need changing as they have deteriorated
Wheels need a complete refurb
Few seams on the soft top have pulled apart slightly, softtop itself is still fine though
I noticed a slight oil leak which I believe might be the rocker cover gasket
Polish up the headlights as although they don't look bad they could do with some attention as they aren't perfectly clear
Need to check the exhaust fully, might remove the rear bumper to check everything back there, its a TTE exhaust though and the manifold has been replaced with a decat version
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.
Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT! U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required. And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money. I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.
Quote from: "brettfield999"Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"All moved in, internet and desk sorted, amazingly a mate is selling his facelift car for quite a reasonable price so I will look to get that - its high mileage due to motorway driving but that's ok as I might either pull pistons and rods or go with the 2zz swap.
Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT! U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required. And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money. I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.
Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "brettfield999"Quote from: "1979scotte"Go with the 2zz swap.
1zz forged pistons and rods are so expensive.
2zz and rotrex = big power.
As long as you dont mind the low torque.
+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT! U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required. And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money. I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.
Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.
Yes but 1zz pistons and rods cant be sourced for reasonable money within the uk.
2zz doesnt need rods and pistons arent too dear. Comparibly.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "brettfield999"+1
Chants: DO IT, DO IT, DO IT, DO IT! U can get a Celica for next to nowt and that will have most of the bits required. And you can sell on some bits from it to make up your money. I think its possible to do the swap for free if you do it yourself and are shrewd, if not minimal cost.
Will see how things progress, I know that the 2zz has the MMC on the bores so only certain pistons are happy unlike the 1zz which can be rebored if needed making the 2zz kinda a 'single use' engine unless you get dry liners fitted at £££s.
Yes but 1zz pistons and rods cant be sourced for reasonable money within the uk.
2zz doesnt need rods and pistons arent too dear. Comparibly.
I think I am going to go the 2zz route after a piston upgrade, have seen the Wiesco 9:1 pistons that are ok with the MMC bore coating, will probably sort out the 2zz engine sooner rather than later so I can work on it a bit before doing the swap.
I will keep the 1zz internally stock but will do a few mods to it in the mean time, the car already had a decatted precat header, panel filter and TTE exhaust, will work on the few issues already flagged up, will keep the stock ECU for the 1zz and then probably go with the AEM EMS-4 when I swap over to the 2zz - unless I can get a basemap for both 1zz and 2zz engines to warrant running a remap on the 1zz although I don't think it will be worth it.
Right, I have now collected the car, here is the spec:
2003 Facelift
175,000 miles
I am the 3rd owner
Previous owner had it from 105,000 miles and has done a lot of motorway driving
TTE exhaust
TTE rear spoiler
Very short shortshifter
Decatted manifold
Panel air filter with cold air intake pipework
After driving it back I can see that the car is well balanced and responsive, although I haven't revved it all the way up (still getting to know the car) I can tell that its not the most powerful engine, I have a feeling my daily drive turbo diesel Fiesta has more torque!
Here are some photos from collection:
(http://i.imgur.com/9NkN5Z2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/RKt3Kjf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JSDiUVZ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/DvfaUfq.jpg)
Anyway, overall the car is pretty good as a base, here is a list of a few things that need sorting though:
Wheels need a refurb as they are quite badly flaking
Rattle at lower RPMs, unsure if this is a heatshield or if its chain rattle - timing chain I believe is OEM stock
Rear tyres are probably needed, might get new tyres front and back - previous owner bought premium but budget tyres and are missmatching brands due to not having the same brand for both front and rear tyre sizes
New numberplates as they are cracked and damaged
New rocker cover gasket - there seems to be a fairly slow leak down one side with that side of the engine being caked in oil
Check to see if any error comes come back - I read the codes and they are coming up with a few O2 heater codes, check engine light bulb seems to have been removed - will keep checking to see if they come back
Oil and filters were changed last month so that's ok
Passenger door window doesn't open/work
OEM radio doesn't work although I believe this has been disabled due to an issue with the electric mast
Headlights are slightly cloudy
Car doesn't apparently really use much oil, I have a feeling that the leak on the rocker cover gasket might be the issue
I have 1 fully working standard key, a valet key and a fob where it seems the blade has snapped off
Brakes and pads are in ok condition but could be good to change them out soon
Mods/service items planned so far:
Hard top with fitting kit being collected by the end of the month - will be repainting it before I get the rouge hardtop solid mounts
LED interior light as the OEM one is rubbish
Replace numberplates with either pressed or plastic
Replace rear tyres
Change rocket cover gasket whilst checking the tension of the chain
Polish up headlights
Get replacement blade and case and move internals of damaged fob over to new fob as it all works still
Debadge rear lettering
Brake pad and disc change
Shifter extension to make it a bit easier to change gear with the very short shortshifter fitted
I will hopefully run the car at Santapod to get an idea of the 1/4 mile time for straighline speed, I will then start looking at some weight reduction, V5 states that the car is 1,140kg - unsure if this takes into account the TTE exhaust though.
All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for that:
Ah that might be a simple fix for the passenger window!
The leak seems to be top right when looking at the ending, will try and get a photo - sounds like it might be the oil seal though
Will check the plate for the actual weight - the V5 states 'weight in transit' I think
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for that:
Ah that might be a simple fix for the passenger window!
The leak seems to be top right when looking at the ending, will try and get a photo - sounds like it might be the oil seal though
Will check the plate for the actual weight - the V5 states 'weight in transit' I think
Chain tensioner o ring is a common one and an easy fix as long as you can get the right size o ring, the way the leaking oil spreads can make it look like the head though.
I should also point out I missed the P off my previous comment, I'm PFL so a bit lighter than yours due to the increased bracing on the FL.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"All sounds good. 3 things if you haven't already checked/had suggested. Passenger window lock switch, timing chain tensioner oil seal if the leak is top, right hand corner and is the weight on the V5 gross vehicle weight or kerb? I can't remember but I know my FL is supposed to be 950 from the factory..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for that:
Ah that might be a simple fix for the passenger window!
The leak seems to be top right when looking at the ending, will try and get a photo - sounds like it might be the oil seal though
Will check the plate for the actual weight - the V5 states 'weight in transit' I think
Chain tensioner o ring is a common one and an easy fix as long as you can get the right size o ring, the way the leaking oil spreads can make it look like the head though.
I should also point out I missed the P off my previous comment, I'm PFL so a bit lighter than yours due to the increased bracing on the FL.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well that's the window sorted - still working out what all the buttons do!
I have checked the plate in the engine bay in the back left, weights are as follows:
1225kg
1225kg
1 - 540
2 - 735
Really hope the car isn't 1,225 kg! I know its a facelift model but its not like it has air con or anything else special on it.
Also some of the oil does indeed look like its coming out the chain tensioner - is it worth getting the tensioner replaced or just swap out the seal? Might have a spare seal in the toolbox so could be a job tomorrow. There is also oil above that as well so it might also be a slightly leaking gasket - need to take the rocker cover off to check the chain tension between the cam gears for stretch but also to give it a clean up and paint.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "m1tch"Thanks for that:
Ah that might be a simple fix for the passenger window!
The leak seems to be top right when looking at the ending, will try and get a photo - sounds like it might be the oil seal though
Will check the plate for the actual weight - the V5 states 'weight in transit' I think
Chain tensioner o ring is a common one and an easy fix as long as you can get the right size o ring, the way the leaking oil spreads can make it look like the head though.
I should also point out I missed the P off my previous comment, I'm PFL so a bit lighter than yours due to the increased bracing on the FL.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well that's the window sorted - still working out what all the buttons do!
I have checked the plate in the engine bay in the back left, weights are as follows:
1225kg
1225kg
1 - 540
2 - 735
Really hope the car isn't 1,225 kg! I know its a facelift model but its not like it has air con or anything else special on it.
Also some of the oil does indeed look like its coming out the chain tensioner - is it worth getting the tensioner replaced or just swap out the seal? Might have a spare seal in the toolbox so could be a job tomorrow. There is also oil above that as well so it might also be a slightly leaking gasket - need to take the rocker cover off to check the chain tension between the cam gears for stretch but also to give it a clean up and paint.
The handbook states Gross Vehicle Mass as 1225kg.
I'm only a beginner but fairly confident there's not usually a problem with the tensioner itself, just the o ring, although it's worth making sure you've definitely got the correct replacement or you'll be doing it again in no time, granted it's only a 10 minute job.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Chain tensioner o ring is a common one and an easy fix as long as you can get the right size o ring, the way the leaking oil spreads can make it look like the head though.
I should also point out I missed the P off my previous comment, I'm PFL so a bit lighter than yours due to the increased bracing on the FL.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well that's the window sorted - still working out what all the buttons do!
I have checked the plate in the engine bay in the back left, weights are as follows:
1225kg
1225kg
1 - 540
2 - 735
Really hope the car isn't 1,225 kg! I know its a facelift model but its not like it has air con or anything else special on it.
Also some of the oil does indeed look like its coming out the chain tensioner - is it worth getting the tensioner replaced or just swap out the seal? Might have a spare seal in the toolbox so could be a job tomorrow. There is also oil above that as well so it might also be a slightly leaking gasket - need to take the rocker cover off to check the chain tension between the cam gears for stretch but also to give it a clean up and paint.
The handbook states Gross Vehicle Mass as 1225kg.
I'm only a beginner but fairly confident there's not usually a problem with the tensioner itself, just the o ring, although it's worth making sure you've definitely got the correct replacement or you'll be doing it again in no time, granted it's only a 10 minute job.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just reading into it a bit more it seems that the 1,225kg is the max weight of the vehicle, just re-read the V5 and it states 'Mass in service - 1,105kg (not 1,140kg I remembered incorrectly). Does seem like a fair jump although that might be all up wet (kerb) weight including fluids (considering there is 10 litres of coolant etc!). The 950 might be the dry weight of the lighter PFL model? Either way I will be looking to drop some weight along the way, the TTE exhaust would have already removed weight and there are other bits I will be ditching soon as well after the initial run at Santapod. Using a 1/4 mile calculator and 140bhp @ 1,105kg its predicting a 16.3 1/4 mile, the weight might be down slightly with the TTE exhaust, decat manifold and BHP might be up say 5bhp which should land me at around 16 second 1/4 mile time - still fairly slow but a good baseline if I can run that time.
The extra chassis bracing, bumpers, lights and interior features might well push the weight up to that, there's far more experienced members on here will probably be able to quote chapter and verse on the increases. I know my Fox exhaust added around 2kg over standard and don't imagine for a minute it increased the BHP, just the smiles per hour and that's enough for me!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"The extra chassis bracing, bumpers, lights and interior features might well push the weight up to that, there's far more experienced members on here will probably be able to quote chapter and verse on the increases. I know my Fox exhaust added around 2kg over standard and don't imagine for a minute it increased the BHP, just the smiles per hour and that's enough for me!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah I think the extra bracing was around 10kg, not sure how much of a difference in weight changing to the decat manifold is but I have what came off the car, the heat shields alone must be about 2kg!
I am tempted to see if I can find a weigh station and see what the car actually weighs, will make a note of the weight of anything I remove from the car so I can work back to the weight the car is now and the 1/4 mile times etc.
My turbo car was corner weighted 1050kg.
My V6 probably only weighs 1100kg.
Tommy zoom has his down to less than 950kg.
Quote from: "1979scotte"My turbo car was corner weighted 1050kg.
My V6 probably only weighs 1100kg.
Tommy zoom has his down to less than 950kg.
Thanks for the info, seems odd that the weight stated is 1,105kg, will just make a note of any weight I remove so when I do get the car weighed I can see how much the car was as it sits now.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"My turbo car was corner weighted 1050kg.
My V6 probably only weighs 1100kg.
Tommy zoom has his down to less than 950kg.
Thanks for the info, seems odd that the weight stated is 1,105kg, will just make a note of any weight I remove so when I do get the car weighed I can see how much the car was as it sits now.
Wiki quote the kerb weight as 996kg which i believe to be correct for pfl.
Fl gained better crash protection which added weight also seats and lights are heavier too.
It seems that this car also has a rattle somewhere, currently looking into the possible cause, I thought it might be the gearbox input shaft bearings but it might be something as simple as the heat shield coming loose, will investigate further though.
I have now got 2 new tyres fitted, will be getting the fronts sorted as well at the moment as they aren't a good brand/one that I would trust with my life, they unfortunately have a lot of tread on them but will be swapping them out when I get the chance. I have driven the car for 2 days now to and from work getting used to the usual noises and feeling of the car, its a good little car but does need some work here and there.
Here is a list of things I am currently sorting/sorted:
New rear tyres - bought and fitted
Brake discs and pads
Adjust handbrake
Possibly rebuild rear calipers if sticking
Paint up brake calipers
New wiper blades - ordered
Hard top and fitting kit - arranged for a few weeks time
Refurb alloys
Find rattle in engine bay
Replace main cat O2 sensor
Replace/refresh number plates
Check bores/pistons of engine using bore webcam - arrived
Check current spark plugs for engine health
Compression check engine - ordered kit
Replace failed bulbs for instrument backlight
Check status of check engine light bulb on instrument PCB
Check camchain for play
Replace/reseat rocker cover gasket to sort possible leak
Replace cam chain O ring to repair main oil leak
Check for possible exhaust blow
Debadge rear
Replace 175,000 mile old fuel pump
Check steering U joint
Check rear subframe - initial check shows no rust but want to check closer
Replace incorrect locking wheel nuts with correct flat washer locking wheel nuts to avoid snapping studs
Paint hard top
Polish headlights to remove clouding
When I had the tyres changed the fitter commented that the hand brake was only working on 1 of the rear wheels, when I got home I noticed that the passenger rear alloy wheel was slightly warm indicating a possible seized caliper, I believe that the calipers have already been rebuilt, however the pads and discs are well past it - although the car brakes fine.
I have now had a look down the bores using the USB borescope, I can see that the piston tops are fairly carboned up, not sure if they are oily though but the good new is that I can see the outline of the casting marks on the top of the pistons - the circle meaning that they are probably in pretty good shape.
I have checked the plugs, they were Iridium plugs and I wouldn't say they were new but were ok, light gray soot on them so everything is burning well and no oil on them which is also good!
I am now in the process of removing the rocker cover to check for timing chain play, one stud is stuck so will soak that overnight.
Brake discs and pads have been ordered, will be adjusting the hand brake after those are fitted.
I have some paint stripper to try out on the alloys to prep them for repainting, still deciding on colour.
Need to order some new wheel nuts to replace the incorrect locking wheel nuts.
Have also checked the instrument cluster and found that the check engine light LED had been covered, will keep it covered until I have sorted out all of the O2 sensors.
Sorry for the bad photos so far, they are all taken on my phone so not ideal, will get some better photos of the car when I get into anything more interesting!
Here are some photos I took inside the cylinders, the quality isn't that good due to the cheap camera plus fairly poor lighting but you can make out the OEM marks on the piston tops:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/170613_181540_zpssq3w5yj2.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/170613_181540_zpssq3w5yj2.jpg.html)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/170613_181632_zpsd7dappdx.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/170613_181632_zpsd7dappdx.jpg.html)
Photo of the Iridium plugs I pulled out, top plug is the far left cylinder when looking at the engine:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/20170613_180944_zpsvr8v1eeb.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/20170613_180944_zpsvr8v1eeb.jpg.html)
Pulled the rocker cover to check the chain, everything looks pretty good, chain is tight:
(http://i.imgur.com/3kvDkj0.jpg)
Although I still need to polish up the rear to get rid of the very light outline of the badges, the rear has now been debadged:
Before
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/20170615_170242_zps2s60xcri.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/20170615_170242_zps2s60xcri.jpg.html)
After
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/20170615_173129_zpsqytrttdd.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/20170615_173129_zpsqytrttdd.jpg.html)
New number plates are on order as well, and I have some new locking wheel nuts coming that are the correct flat washer sort, hopefully I can remove the current conical ones without snapping the studs! Compression tester also arrived yesterday so will run a compression check when everything is back together.
Those plugs! Oh my. They haven't been changes in a very very long time.
Been a while since I've seen them that bad.
Looks like valves may need some work as well. Quite a bit of deposit on them.
There will be some oil going through there (as well?)
I bet the car feels like new after a good service.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Those plugs! Oh my. They haven't been changes in a very very long time.
Been a while since I've seen them that bad.
Looks like valves may need some work as well. Quite a bit of deposit on them.
There will be some oil going through there (as well?)
I bet the car feels like new after a good service.
I know they are Iridium with extended service life but yeah they are fairly worn, have got some basic replacements to get me going, still got to put the rocker cover back on, hopefully the new gasket arrives today so I can put it all back together, will also look to do a compression test as well on them.
The photos at the top are for the top of the pistons - that's a photo through the spark plug hole to the top of the piston so its fairly coked up, at least I can still see the circle from the top of the OEM pistons though!
Not sure how much oil the car burns but there isn't any blue smoke at all even on acceleration, need to also replace the O ring on the tensioner (currently in the post).
Will be good to get it back together to enjoy the car again, I have new number plates on order and new locking wheel nuts arriving soon (current ones are the incorrect conical ones and hopefully the studs are ok!).
Looks like a new set of plates have arrived as well as the new locking wheel nuts and a replacement main cat O2 sensor, will look to get these all installed tonight and check on the OBD2 reader to see if I am getting a voltage from the main cat sensor. I am tempted to replace the main cat at some point as its done 175k miles which might mean its a bit past it and its already quite rusty.
Just been reading this thread.
What spoiler do you have on the back?
Quote from: "Cabrioman"Just been reading this thread.
What spoiler do you have on the back?
That's the standard TTE 'Banana' spoiler, both the TTE exhaust and the TTE spoiler were stock on my car, the TTE exhaust does sound really good, the TTE spoiler will be coming off and sold at some point soon.
I plan to run the car down the drag strip in the next couple of weeks to get a baseline 1/4 mile time for acceleration in the current 'as delivered' condition, I can then compare how each of the upgrades go in stages to see what makes a difference.
I can already see a fair amount of weight can be taken out the car but will be running the car as bought to see what it can do initially with the few mods it has.
I am still deciding on the route I want to go with the car, I am still tempted to stick with the 1zz and turbo it, however pistons and rods don't seem to be that common or readily available as for the 2zz.
The dilemma I have is that the current engine is high mileage, but the gearbox has an LSD, I could easily turbo it on stock internals and run low 200bhp, the engine is already in the car so could also easily change pistons and rods at a later date but they aren't easy to come by and I don't know how good the current bores are. The 2zz route is tempted as its the common upgrade, internal parts are easy to come by however there is extra cost in the fact that I don't have the engine plus I would need the C64 gearbox to be rebuilt to include the LSD so would need to get a spare LSD.
Will need to have a think, I have a feeling I might be going down the turbo 1zz route with a 2zz sat in the garage being worked on whilst I build up other parts like the gearbox, maybe even those uprated 3rd and 4th gears.
It's a shame that the 1zz doesn't really have many aftermarket internal parts but I guess the engine needs help to get from 140bhp to 210bhp whereas the 2zz with the same displacement is already up 40bhp more in stock form.
Hi , as you know from my thread that I'm in the same position .....
my 1zz engine lasted 2 years @ 176bhp fitted @ 77,000 if I remember rightly , but it totally transformed the car ,
after many suggestions here I just put another standard 1zz back in but now have some bits that should get it to 250bhp as the kit was designed for , but how long will it last if driven hard .......
haven't had the car for a few months cause fitting monocraft kit and its taken longer than I was expecting , mates rates bodyshop ............ will run it @ 250 to see how it is but my mind is thinking MWR built 1zz with the stronger gears , don't think I want the expense of 2zz swap converting turbo and then it goes bang again .........
Quote from: "paul.mcgrath"Hi , as you know from my thread that I'm in the same position .....
my 1zz engine lasted 2 years @ 176bhp fitted @ 77,000 if I remember rightly , but it totally transformed the car ,
after many suggestions here I just put another standard 1zz back in but now have some bits that should get it to 250bhp as the kit was designed for , but how long will it last if driven hard .......
haven't had the car for a few months cause fitting monocraft kit and its taken longer than I was expecting , mates rates bodyshop ............ will run it @ 250 to see how it is but my mind is thinking MWR built 1zz with the stronger gears , don't think I want the expense of 2zz swap converting turbo and then it goes bang again .........
I am tempted to look at the 1zz turbo route, at low boost it should be ok on stock internals, my engine is high mileage but until I have the head off I won't know if the bores are still ok, its done a lot of motorway miles and looks to have been daily driven from the first owner.
I know that I can do pistons and rods whilst the engine is still in as its a case of timing chain off, head off, sump off undo the rod bolts and remove (highly simplified but do able), I would class myself as having an ok mechanical skill level but will use this project as a way to increase that. The car isn't a daily drive so if it takes longer than expected I wouldn't be too worried, plus the car will probably be off the road over the winter so can take my time on a few things.
I am looking to see what I could do with the OEM parts, main thing I think needs looking at is the high compression ratio, might be able to drop the compression ratio slightly if I look to use a decompression plate on the engine, or indeed have a look at the OEM pistons. I can see that the OEM pistons aren't flat top so I could look to machine down the top so that its all level - eg removing the high spot without causing issues with the thickness of the crown and overall strength.
I know that the rods are a weak point but its torque that bends rods and the engine doesn't have a huge amount of torque, I will however look into any other alternative OEM Toyota rods from a different engine but same specs.
I will look to probably take the head off over winter and check the bores, change the pistons and rings to keep oil in check as well as possibly doing some head work in terms of regrinding valves, oil stem seals etc perhaps some gasket matching and a mild port/tidy up.
If the bores are ok and the block is good I would look to add some ARP head studs and decide on what head gasket I want to go with (if going thicker), I have a feeling a turbo 1zz will be perfectly adequate to make the car more enjoyable - when I was looking for a project car I didn't really want to do an engine swap but the 2zz swap is still an option down the road as its still fairly 'drop in'.
Will do some more research, I have a fair amount of spare pipework, turbos, intercoolers, fueling parts and meth injection parts sitting in the garage.
Will look to maximise the stock engine, the upgraded ECU would be happy with either engine and other parts such as the fueling would also work on both engines so I wouldn't lose anything if I did decide to go 2zz in the future, I am aware that looking to tune the 1zz is a slight uphill battle vs a 2zz but for me that will be part of the challenge.
I have however found I can get some H beam Molnar rods @ $414
m http://molnarrods.com/toyota-1zz-connecting-rods (http://molnarrods.com/toyota-1zz-connecting-rods) m
Or a set of ZRP forged rods @ £331:
m http://forged-pistons.co.uk/webshop/zrp ... -toy-007h/ (http://forged-pistons.co.uk/webshop/zrp-h-beam-forged-connecting-rods/toyota/1-8ltr-1zz-r-toy-007h/) m
Looks like its the pistons that might be the issue getting hold of.
Rubbish 14 year old number plates have been taken off, shiny new ones fitted - needed to enlarge the holes slightly and use a rawl plug to use the standard fitment screws provided with the plates, no ugly rusty screws and peeling plates anymore - did notice that these have been on the MOT advisory list for a while!
I have now collected a hardtop and fitting kit, its currently red but I will look to prep and paint it a matt black which would basically match the original softtop, I will then look to get some solid hardtop mounts and only run with the hardtop on the car. Driving back with the hardtop its amazing how much quieter and warmer the car is vs just the softtop, coupled with the weight reduction it will be a great addition to the car.
I have checked the brakes again and it seems that the discs are amazing but are in OK condition, plenty of meat left on the front pads, not a huge amount on the rear pads - I have a full set of discs and pads to fit soon but just need a caliper wind back tool.
I have also bought off the forum a Dastek Unichip which is still being sold over in the US, it is premapped for intake, exhaust with a low/high octane map which I guess would be needed for the lower octane US fuel:
m http://www.unichip.us/vehicle/vehicles/ ... Spyder-18L (http://www.unichip.us/vehicle/vehicles/1106-2003-Toyota-MR2-Spyder-18L) m
This will just be a stopgap ECU to maximise the stock engine in NA form until I get another aftermarket mappable ECU - which I am still deciding on.
The plan next is to go over to Santapod and run a few 1/4 mile passes to see the sort of acceleration the car has to see what the power to weight improvements moving forward - will be looking to run with 2 different setups:
As delivered weight - stock ECU
As delivered weight - Dastek ECU
After I have some baseline runs that I am happy with I will start removing some weight from the car, will be weighing everything that comes off the car so I can then workout how heavy the 'as delivered' weight is, I will also put the OEM exhaust heat shields in the car even though the car has an aftermarket decat manifold. The only weight reduction from stock would be the TTE exhaust which was factory fit for my car, this is probably countered by the TTE banana spoiler in terms of weight though!
I am still looking at mods further down the road in terms of engine swap/engine upgrade/turbo/supercharger, for the 1zz or 2zz engine here is how I see it at the moment:
Both routes will need:
Standalone ECU
Uprated radiator
Intercooler/charge cooler
Oilpan with turbo drain feed
Fueling/injectors
Clutch
Other supporting non engine mods eg brakes, half cage, wheels and tyre package etc
1zz-T route:
Pistons
Rods
ARP headstuds
Possible rebore
2zz-T route:
2zz engine swap
Pistons
ARP headstuds
C64 gearbox rebuild to include LSD
Looking at the MWR dyno figures (which are probably optimistic) it would seem that the 1zz built engine could hold the mid 300bhp mark with a stock engine running low 200s, with the 2zz running higher power but box breaking torque.
Thinking about a few factors I think I might look to run the 1zz and turbo that considering I initially don't need to open the engine up at all to run a fairly good power figure for the car's weight. Also the fact that I can swap pistons and rods whilst the engine is still in the car which would also be handy - unless it needs a rebore.
I know that the internals will cost more on the 1zz as I would need both rods and pistons, however I don't need to buy a completely new engine and swap, plus the bonus of already having an LSD as standard in the car so the 1zz turbo would be the 'cheaper' option. I might also be able to look into a way to mod the stock pistons to lower the compression ratio of them, plus any head work in terms of porting, might even look into decompression plates. Will be doing a compression test on the engine later to see how healthy the engine is, although I haven't noticed any oil level change after my first few hundred miles of driving in the car which is good to know.
I am taking inspiration from Leethesparky's build, although I won't be going widebody its good to see that you can reliably run a turbo on a stock block.
Quick update from the initial list of things to sort:
New rear tyres - Done
Brake discs and pads - bought, but only rears need sorting, fronts have plenty of pad, plan to do that soon
Adjust handbrake - After rear pads fitted
Possibly rebuild rear calipers if sticking - Need to check condition of rear calipers
Paint up brake calipers - WIll do at the same time as rear pads
New wiper blades - Fitted
Hard top and fitting kit - Fitted
Refurb alloys - waiting for weather to improve
Find rattle in engine bay - Think this is the manifold heat shield, still investigating
Replace main cat O2 sensor - Replaced and working
Replace/refresh number plates - replaced
Check bores/pistons of engine using bore webcam - checked, carbon build up isn't too bad after longer run
Check current spark plugs for engine health - Plugs were worn, have replaced with new
Compression check engine - cold compression test shows even pressure on all cylinders
Replace failed bulbs for instrument backlight - need to order bulbs once I work out which ones I need
Check status of check engine light bulb on instrument PCB - check engine light has tape in front of it within the cluster
Check camchain for play - No play, chain tight
Replace/reseat rocker cover gasket to sort possible leak - Gasket changed when checking cam chain
Replace cam chain O ring to repair main oil leak - O ring has arrived, fitting soon
Check for possible exhaust blow - Exhaust seems ok although is slightly rusted, TTE exhaust is original
Debadge rear - done
Replace 175,000 mile old fuel pump - still to do
Check steering U joint - still to do
Check rear subframe - initial check shows no rust but want to check closer - looks ok but will take off heat shields to check
Replace incorrect locking wheel nuts with correct flat washer locking wheel nuts to avoid snapping studs - replaced with flat washer sort
Paint hard top - paint ordered
Polish headlights to remove clouding - headlights polished up a bit but don't seem too bad
Main things I have to do are:
Hard top painting
Wheel refurb
Rear brake pad replacement/hand brake adjusting
I have a Dastek unichip to try out soon, have ordered some 5 point security torx bits to remove the security shield, this will allow me to run with or without the Dastek down the 1/4 mile to see the difference in stock 'as delivered' weight before I start removing weight from the car.
I am also looking into future power options as the Dastek will probably maximise the engines power in the current condition, its high mileage so not expecting miracles from the performance but will see what it does in NA form.
After a good think I am going to look to go this tuning route to maximise power to weight:
Stage 0 - As delivered weight and OEM map
Stage 1 - As delivered weight with Dastek remap
Stage 2 - Reduced weight with Dastek remap
Stage 3 - Reduced weight with standalone ECU
Stage 4 - Turbocharging on stock internals, low boost
Stage 5 - Replacement built engine with upgraded rods, pistons etc, low/high boost
I will look to get a spare 1zz engine with the stock MR2 6 speed gearbox to rebuild it in the garage over an extended period of time with a plan to fit:
Engine rebore (rebore depending on used engine specs)
Uprated pistons (low compression)
Uprated rods
Valvetrain upgrade - stiffer springs to cope with boost behind valves
ARP headstuds
Uprated bearings
Lightened flywheel
Uprated clutch
Rebuild 6 speed gearbox with stock LSD, upgraded 3rd and 4th gears
I have now painted the red hardtop in a satin black - was mean to be a matt black however they sent over the incorrect paint, still looks good though, needs a few bits touching up but wanted it to mirror the OEM softtop.
Just took some very very quick photos last night after refitting the hardtop.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/20170703_212606_zpsvgg1fvto.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/20170703_212606_zpsvgg1fvto.jpg.html)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/20170703_212622_zpsuov4vtsj.jpg) (http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/20170703_212622_zpsuov4vtsj.jpg.html)
This thread is going to be quite an epic s:) :) s:) Looking forward to it
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"This thread is going to be quite an epic s:) :) s:) Looking forward to it
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Indeed, its a long term project, I don't plan to sell the car and it will be a learning experience for me as well, I know that parts of this project will be quite demanding but its ok as I can SORN the car if needed, its not my daily drive, I think the MOT is up in December but might look to get parts on the car sorted and then MOT it in a month or 2 as its then not in the middle of winter if if needs work!
After owning some older cars I am slightly disappointed with more modern cars that aren't user serviceable, they usually have a massive piece of plastic over the engine and usually need to be plugged into a dealer only PC to do simple jobs. Having owned a 1982 mini that can be fixed with a hammer, screwdriver and a spanner, along with a few mk1 MX5s I am wanting to simplify everything as much as possible.
I have decided that I want to simply improve the driving experience of the car meaning I can look at certain parts quite subjectively when looking to remove weight, example being the central locking door motors - yes central locking is good, however it doesn't help with the driving experience.
Plan for this car will be to build up a built engine with an uprated gearbox to hold some moderate power without breaking so I only need to put an engine in once.
Started preparations for the initial drag runs, will be taking off the hardtop to run with the standard soft top for the 'as delivered' weight, I have also refilled on fuel, I have filled the tank to the brim as if I brim the tank for this run and then brim the tank when I reduce the weight I will have a consistent amount of fuel each time. The drag time would be slower as I might be running with 30kgs more on board but it means that I can take the fuel variable out of the comparison as it wouldn't be like for like if I ran with slightly different fuel loads each time. Once I get a baseline with a reduced weight I can then run with less fuel to get a faster time.
I also brimmed the tank when I bought the car as I was wondering what sort of MPG the car does, since I have had the car I have had some commutes to work - mixed speed limits with roundabouts with some dual carriageway, brim to brim the car took 30.5 litres after traveling 286 miles - this works out at 42.6 mpg (unsure if this is good or not!).
Mods currently on the car:
High flow drop in air filter
Brake cooling hose used as cold air intake (instead of mkIII pipe)
Removal of pre cats in manifold
TTE exhaust
Tein lowering springs on new stock dampers
Better mpg than I ever get
Quote from: "1979scotte"Better mpg than I ever get
Take is that that's a good MPG then? I took it steady coming back from collecting the hard top and have only really revved it up a couple of times, although there was a fair amount of idling whilst checking the Dastek which was running rich!
Hard top has been taken off now ready for Saturday, will probably be the last time the car has a soft top fitted, still need to order the rogue solid mounts.
Fuelly tells me I'm averaging 69.3mpg.. I think Fuelly is FUBAR...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Fuelly tells me I'm averaging 69.3mpg.. I think Fuelly is FUBAR...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you got it setup incorrectly.
As in litres instead of gallons of km instead of miles.
Also you want imperial gallons not US.
I use fuelly and think it's great.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Fuelly tells me I'm averaging 69.3mpg.. I think Fuelly is FUBAR...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you got it setup incorrectly.
As in litres instead of gallons of km instead of miles.
Also you want imperial gallons not US.
I use fuelly and think it's great.
I thought I had but possibly not, I put it down to only putting in two, part fuel ups so far and it not having enough data yet.
Do me a favour Scott, list for me your settings please and I'll double check mine..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Fuelly tells me I'm averaging 69.3mpg.. I think Fuelly is FUBAR...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you got it setup incorrectly.
As in litres instead of gallons of km instead of miles.
Also you want imperial gallons not US.
I use fuelly and think it's great.
I thought I had but possibly not, I put it down to only putting in two, part fuel ups so far and it not having enough data yet.
Do me a favour Scott, list for me your settings please and I'll double check mine..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In settings it just says display units and i have selected UK.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "1979scotte"Have you got it setup incorrectly.
As in litres instead of gallons of km instead of miles.
Also you want imperial gallons not US.
I use fuelly and think it's great.
I thought I had but possibly not, I put it down to only putting in two, part fuel ups so far and it not having enough data yet.
Do me a favour Scott, list for me your settings please and I'll double check mine..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In settings it just says display units and i have selected UK.
I'll double check, cheers!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"I thought I had but possibly not, I put it down to only putting in two, part fuel ups so far and it not having enough data yet.
Do me a favour Scott, list for me your settings please and I'll double check mine..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In settings it just says display units and i have selected UK.
I'll double check, cheers!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No matter what I select the result is still the same but I've only done 300 miles for £50 over 2 part fuel ups so I think it still needs more information.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Will be heading over to Santa pod in a bit, for reference the car at this point is at the 'as delivered' weight, although I have also put the OEM heat shields in the passenger footwell as those would be fitted in a stock car if it had an OEM manifold.
Current mods:
High flow drop in air filter
Tein lowering springs on stock damper
Decat manifold
Dealer fit TTE exhaust
Dealer fit TTE spoiler
Stock ECU (not taking the Dastek today)
Softtop but with hardtop fitting kit attached
All interior trim including tool kit, spare wheel etc
'As racing' all up driver weight including keys/wallet/phone/shoes etc - 81.6kg (so I can take this into account the next time I run in terms of weight reduction).
I will also be taking a portable tyre compressor and a bottle of water - will weigh both of these as well, I also don't know if I need a helmet as it technically an open topped car so will be putting one in the car although won't be running with the roof down etc.
Have fun
Quote from: "1979scotte"Have fun
Thanks, just sitting in the queue right now, fair mix of cars today, didn't need the helmet as I'm not running with the roof down. Will get as many runs in as I can to see what a very lightly modded MR2 runs.
I think the official figure is 15.6
Best run so far is 15.97 at 85mph, also another run at 15.98 so consistent, and that's on a 175k miles on the engine on a very hot day here. Have done 5 runs, lifted out of one but all are 15.9 to 16.1 so very consistent to get a good baseline.
Those are good times.
+1. Doesn't look like too many horses have escaped in those 175k miles.
I have just got back home, here are the results from 6 runs, its very hot out there!
Run 1
2.3044 second 60 foot
16.0027 second 1/4 mile
86.88mph terminal
Run 2
2.4065 second 60 foot
16.1749 second 1/4 mile
85.06mph terminal
Run 3
2.3435 second 60 foot
15.9728 second 1/4 mile
85.56mph terminal
Run 4 - missed 3rd, aborted run
2.3704 second 60 foot
16.3858 second 1/4 mile
78.55mph terminal
Run 5
2.3618 second 60 foot
15.9813 second 1/4 mile
85.07mph terminal
Run 6
2.2833 second 60 foot
15.8627 second 1/4 mile
86.86mph terminal
The last run was the quickest at 15.86 seconds, but its amazing how consistent it was earlier on, looks like on the last run I had a much better launch shown by a better 60 foot time, I also held it in gear slightly longer and held it at the top of 3rd I think as its at the limiter near the line.
The car does have a short shifter which I believe has helped quite a bit and actually the lower power is helping the traction down low as I only get a tiny bit of wheel spin off the line before the front end lifts lol. Today I beat to the line: a custard yellow Seat Leon Cupra R, a fully stripped out civic hatch (with those expensive drilled out rear arms), Mitsubushi GTO and also was keeping up with a highly modded Skyline until about half way (till the turbos kicked in). Just goes to show how nimble and light off the line the car is coupled with the short shifter and close ration 6 speed box - was quite a bit of fun.
I have now started to remove some parts from the car, I will also weigh the helmet that I didn't need, also took 1.5 litres of water with me and the air compressor, was also running an almost full tank - still have just over 3/4 tank left, looks like the stock tank takes 48 litres meaning I am still carrying probably 35kgs of fuel still so can easily remove say 25kg from the car by running with less fuel.
I have weighed a few parts so far from what I have pulled out of the car in the 'as delivered' weight, will update the post once I get a suitable set of scales, will also list down even the smallest parts as they all add up:
Helmet - 1.475kg
Tyre inflator - 0.725kg
ECU shield - 0.459kg
Box for Toyota locking wheel nuts 0.082kg
Smaller exhaust manifold heat shield - 0.588kg
Larger exhaust manifold heat shield - 1.202kg
Engine vanity cover - 0.357kg
Toolkit - 3.039kg
Spare wheel - 11.2kg
Frunk plastic cover - 1.4kg
Frunk lid - 1.218kg
Frunk well - 3.418kg
Frunk under bracket (long) (1 of 2) - 0.138kg
Inside trim piece where seatbelt threads though (left and right) - 0.714kg
Front floor mats - 1.927kg
Trim over rear bar - 0.764kg
Wind deflector - 0.620kg
Parcel shelf - 1.585kg
Rear carpet - 1.652kg
Rear bin - passenger - 0.902kg
Rear bin - driver - 0.901kg
Rear bin door - passenger - 1.220kg
Rear bin door - driver - 1.205kg
Sides of rear bin trims - 0.344kg
Rear bin fitting hardware - 0.056kg
Engine vanity cover - 0.355kg
Hardtop blanking plates and fitting hardware - 0.119kg
Radio - 2.086kg
Aerial relay - 0.094kg
Ash tray/cup holder/12v socket - 0.484kg
Speakers/tweeters - 2.452kg
Still to weigh/remove:
TTE banana spoiler
Passenger seat
Frunk under bracket (long) - due to seized bolt
Soft top
Assorted bolts
Centre console
Centre radio surround trim pieces
What the total weight removed then Mitch?
Quote from: "jonty"What the total weight removed then Mitch?
Need to get a different set of scales - probably the fishing type scales to then hang some of the parts, might be about to roughly work out a few things using bathroom scales though. Looks like the spare wheel is around 11kg, even the doors to the rear bins are a couple of kgs, will make bigger gains once I remove the passenger seat at some point - won't be all the time though.
I have just taken the car out and found that it feels much more nimble and has a better turn in, there is additional engine noise as I have removed the rear parcel shelf and rear trim but its not that bad. I have remounted the OEM alarm siren onto where one of the bolts go for the frunk well (where the wheel goes), seems fairly sturdy. I do however need to address a few bits in the frunk area as its not seen the light of day in 14 years!
Sounds good progress s:) :) s:) I'm considering getting rid of a lot of interior stuff that's not used and having a general purge of weight. Starting with the soft top since it's not been used in 3 years - I always use the hardtop, though I could consider running neither on days when I know it's going to be dry, or having a really light shower cap for when it's parked.
Quote from: "jonty"Sounds good progress s:) :) s:) I'm considering getting rid of a lot of interior stuff that's not used and having a general purge of weight. Starting with the soft top since it's not been used in 3 years - I always use the hardtop, though I could consider running neither on days when I know it's going to be dry, or having a really light shower cap for when it's parked.
Yeah, its getting there, been holding off on all this until I had a benchmark run in to get some indication of what it was like as stock, the aerial has had it so I am removing the radio and the speakers etc, think that will add up to a fair bit!
Its actually quite simple to take apart so far, mainly those poppers and a few bolts here and there, nothing complex at all, just in the process of looking into the intake setup, its a shame that the stock MAF pipe is part of the airbox - will have to look into other options I think.
Interestingly, plugging in the ET from today and guessing at power at 140 bhp its showing that the weight would be at just over a ton, or its guessing at around 150bhp if the 'mass in transit' figure on the V5 is used, still fairly happy with the time today even though it was very hot.
Just pulled another 2.454kg from the doors in the shape of aftermarket speakers (Alpine type S) and the stock tweeters, no stereo in the car so no point having those, each door card seems to weigh around 1.5kg, will keep them initially but might look to change to lighter door cards.
Also, I am taking some inspiration from the below project video, ignore the terrible music, but check the progression from stock running a mid 15 to a low boost turbo, to 1 bar boost on forged then again on 20psi running a high 11 second pass, aware that the car isn't about straight line speed but you can always dial down a turbo whereas today I felt the car was losing a bit of top end power.
m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTv1GZVA3VI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTv1GZVA3VI) m
I like a car to be fast enough that the straights on track are still entertaining - in my 300bhp/1250kg 200sx it is quite fun, in the 190bhp/1000kg 2zz MR2 it's just about OK, in stock 140bhp MR2 it's dull (especially when other cars just disappear the moment they get on throttle out of a corner), so I understand where you're coming from Mitch.
I'm more interested in how I can progress in lap time at the local circuit (drag strip in anything other than a car that I'm genuinely scared of doesn't appeal) but what you're doing is probably the best objective way to compare. I'm interested to see how you get on with this project!
Quote from: "jonty"I like a car to be fast enough that the straights on track are still entertaining - in my 300bhp/1250kg 200sx it is quite fun, in the 190bhp/1000kg 2zz MR2 it's just about OK, in stock 140bhp MR2 it's dull (especially when other cars just disappear the moment they get on throttle out of a corner), so I understand where you're coming from Mitch.
I'm more interested in how I can progress in lap time at the local circuit (drag strip in anything other than a car that I'm genuinely scared of doesn't appeal) but what you're doing is probably the best objective way to compare. I'm interested to see how you get on with this project!
This is why I am wanting to go the turbo route as I can run the car at lower boost for 95% of the time to keep the car balanced but then still crank it up for the times that I do go drag racing - on the RX7 I had a 'scramble boost' option on the AVC-R boost controller which would enable extra boost for a set amount of time - say for overtaking.
I need to build the car up to be reliable in terms of the top end power I will be looking for meaning that its over engineered for most of the time - will look to upgrade the gearbox to take the extra torque plus the rods and pistons internally.
Now that I have a baseline run of 15.86 my 1/4 mile goal for this project will be to run a 12.86 pass, using the online 1/4 mile calculator it would work out at 140bhp engine power at 1,032kg, pulling say 50kg out the car might give me around 1/2 a second quicker time by just unbolting things. I then have the Dastek unichip to try which will up the power slightly - probably so say 155bhp. The Unichip plus the weight reduction should push me into the high 14s which is fairly respectable, I know that the turbo kit plus associated intercooler etc will add weight so the weight I pull out the car will probably be put back into the car when that is installed.
I think for me the plan will be to run the car as light as I can to a certain point and then boost the power slightly using the Unichip, will also be working on preserving and maintaining everything else on the car as its fairly rust free apart from a few bits under the frunk which is my next job.
I have had the centre console out to check the handbrake cables as apparently it was only working on 1 wheel, I need to swap out the rear pads as they are low as well but I have found that the cables move freely, they just need adjusting - think they might have been adjusted before the pads were worn down.
Will get some photos of the car in its current setup, the car looks fairly standard when sitting in the seat and the removal of the radio and cupholder etc has actually give the car a much more airy feel - need to remove the 12v socket from the surround and reattach though as I need that for the sat nav etc.
So far weighed and removed 42.781kg,
Still have the below to remove:
TTE banana spoiler
Passenger seat
Frunk under bracket (long) - due to seized bolt
Soft top
Assorted bolts
Centre console
Centre radio surround trim piece
OEM exhaust mounting bracket for catted manifold
There will also be additional weight taken out the airbox/intake once I get a spare airbox to mod, then there is the fact that I was running with an almost full fuel tank, got home with 3/4 tank left so I might be able to drop around 20kg in fuel by running less than half tank.
I have now also removed (although will be putting back) a few more items:
Passenger side sun visor - 0.268kg
Brake duct (aftermarket intake pipe instead of elbow) - 0.180kg
Heatshield on passenger side - 0.121kg
Stock intake pipe (MAF to TB - 1.412kg
Stock air box - 0.917kg
Will be initially modding the stock airbox a bit for better flow, currently the engine is breathing through a 75mm diameter hole in the airbox which necks down to 70mm through the MAF - I have a spare airbox coming so I am going to mod the stock bottom part of the airbox from it and also remove the MAF pipe from the top part of the box.
I have just weighed the stock hard top, its coming in at 23.1kg so not a huge weight reduction versus the soft top but it should be lighter once I remove the latches and fit the solid mount kit - hopefully the soft top roof comes to more than 25kg!
Taking the wings off and fitting plastic mud guards?
Quote from: "KRAMSNEHPETS"Taking the wings off and fitting plastic mud guards?
I am gradually working through the car, taken 43kg out the car so far, should be well over 50kg weight reduction once I take out the passenger seat and TTE spoiler etc, just interested to see how much I can take out the car as its already known to be light weight.
The passenger seat is going to be the big one, they are heavy!
You have got some really good info on the weights of all the components. It would be good if you could post all your final figures in a separate post for future reference.
Quote from: "Topdownman"The passenger seat is going to be the big one, they are heavy!
You have got some really good info on the weights of all the components. It would be good if you could post all your final figures in a separate post for future reference.
That's the plan, all I have seen is an older list in lbs rather than kg and I am looking at even the smaller bits of trim as they all add up, the seat will weigh quite a bit and I am sure the TTE spoiler isn't the lightest either. if anyone is reading this thread and is wondering what they might do to take some weight out but still make it look basically OEM here are the best 'bang for the buck' items to remove I have found so far:
ECU shield - 0.459kg - really quite pointless and rather heavy
Smaller exhaust manifold heat shield - 0.588kg - not needed if running a decat manifold
Larger exhaust manifold heat shield - 1.202kg - not needed if running a decat manifold
Front floor mats - 1.927kg - heavier than I expected!
Frunk lid - 1.218kg - easy to remove
Frunk plastic cover - 1.4kg - Few poppers to remove this item but means you can also check fluids easier
Engine vanity cover - 0.357kg - No real need for this
Sides of rear bin trims - 0.344kg - these are meant to pop out as standard to allow wider loads in bins (as per OEM instructions)
Rear bin door - passenger - 1.220kg
Rear bin door - driver - 1.205kg
Basic weight reduction - 9.8kg of basic unbolting/lift out items without loss of comfort/looks
If you have a breakdown recovery service also add:
Toolkit - 3.039kg
Spare wheel - 11.2kg
Frunk well - 3.418kg
Frunk under bracket (long) (2) - 0.278kg
Full road trim weight reduction - 27.7kg of weight removed before starting to unbolt trim or remove sound systems etc
I am currently in the process of working out the air intake system, should have a spare airbox arriving soon so I can mod things to try but also retain a stock airbox if needed (if found to be better), I have noticed that there is a velocity stack inside the airbox, tempted to use this and simply attach the airbox with the velocity stack directly onto the throttle body and then run an ITB sock for filtration. Will use this as a trial as its tucked quite some way back in the engine bay away from the exhaust but will still look into many other options. Another option is to run the stock airbox but remove part of the side facing the cold air feed in the stock location so its got a larger inlet to the box than standard but still protected from the heat.
I am going to attach various intakes and see what the air flow is using the OBD reader, should hopefully see a difference, can also keep a track of temperatures as well.
If with engine vanity cover you mean the coil pack cover (vvti written on it) I think you may soon find the use of it after it rains
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"If with engine vanity cover you mean the coil pack cover (vvti written on it) I think you may soon find the use of it after it rains
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Hmm good shout, although its rained heavily all this morning and its fine, the 'bonnet' has the rain channel under it so it basically just tips the water towards the exhaust, good shout to check the coil packs though.
I have removed a few more things today, just about to unbolt the passenger seat but here are a few more items I have removed (some going back in but its here for record):
Assorted bolts/covers etc from items already removed - 0.247kg
Broken seat adjuster (side wheel) - 0.032kg
OBDII reader plug - 0.032kg (going back in)
Locking wheel nut - 0.107kg (going back in)
Sat nav - 0.263kg (going back in when going to Santapod)
Glovebox - 0.997kg
A spare airbox has also arrived today which I have now cut up the lid for in order for me to use as a MAF pipe, it seems that putting a spacer ring behind the bell mouth means I can mount a 3" inlet air filter around it so that the bell mouth sits inside the air filter unobstructed, could also look at just running with only the bell mouth. I have fired the car up with just the bell mouth and MAF on the end of the stock pipe, issue I found is that it can easily be disturbed and cause the engine to almost cut out if you go near the end.
Need to relocate the battery before I can really go with an intake setup I like - much like the weapon R setup which boxes off the back of the engine as the airbox - still learning!
What do you think the passenger seat removal will do for the balance of the car as a whole? Bearing in mind the rest of the parts you're stripping out, do you think the handling will be affected? Most manufacturers design performance cars with balanced weight distribution where feasible, although I appreciate your going more for straight line speed. Just curious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"What do you think the passenger seat removal will do for the balance of the car as a whole? Bearing in mind the rest of the parts you're stripping out, do you think the handling will be affected? Most manufacturers design performance cars with balanced weight distribution where feasible, although I appreciate your going more for straight line speed. Just curious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do agree with you with regards to the passenger seat, I have just removed it and it comes to 13.9kg so not as heavy as first thought as they are just cloth, the battery and intake system is on the passenger side, its not ideal but I don't have any way to currently weigh the car front to rear and across - what do the guys with track cars do?
So far I have pulled 58.1kg out the car, still have a few brackets to remove (heavy ones in the engine bay and an under frunk bracket), will be driving the car to work tomorrow and will see what its like, normally the car would have an 81kg offset to the driver side, it would now have a 94kg offset. I am sure that Toyota would have factored in that there will be many different sizes of driver so it just means that I could be heavier than I am and it should still be safe - will be moving the battery to the front left to balance as much as I can to the front.
Need to really find a way to weigh the car to see what sort of weight its currently at but will hopefully be close to the ton mark - still got the spoiler to remove as well as the soft top material.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"What do you think the passenger seat removal will do for the balance of the car as a whole? Bearing in mind the rest of the parts you're stripping out, do you think the handling will be affected? Most manufacturers design performance cars with balanced weight distribution where feasible, although I appreciate your going more for straight line speed. Just curious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do agree with you with regards to the passenger seat, I have just removed it and it comes to 13.9kg so not as heavy as first thought as they are just cloth, the battery and intake system is on the passenger side, its not ideal but I don't have any way to currently weigh the car front to rear and across - what do the guys with track cars do?
So far I have pulled 58.1kg out the car, still have a few brackets to remove (heavy ones in the engine bay and an under frunk bracket), will be driving the car to work tomorrow and will see what its like, normally the car would have an 81kg offset to the driver side, it would now have a 94kg offset. I am sure that Toyota would have factored in that there will be many different sizes of driver so it just means that I could be heavier than I am and it should still be safe - will be moving the battery to the front left to balance as much as I can to the front.
Need to really find a way to weigh the car to see what sort of weight its currently at but will hopefully be close to the ton mark - still got the spoiler to remove as well as the soft top material.
Agreed on the offset side of things, I imagine they just decide on a standard average driver's size. Although without wanting to sound unkind your average Japanese aren't known to be giant in stature!(Sumo wrestlers aside, obviously) The seats aren't very substantial no but soon become very heavy when you're trying to wrestle the backs back on!
If you're forgoing the passenger what about the passenger airbag, seatbelt etc?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "Call the midlife!"What do you think the passenger seat removal will do for the balance of the car as a whole? Bearing in mind the rest of the parts you're stripping out, do you think the handling will be affected? Most manufacturers design performance cars with balanced weight distribution where feasible, although I appreciate your going more for straight line speed. Just curious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do agree with you with regards to the passenger seat, I have just removed it and it comes to 13.9kg so not as heavy as first thought as they are just cloth, the battery and intake system is on the passenger side, its not ideal but I don't have any way to currently weigh the car front to rear and across - what do the guys with track cars do?
So far I have pulled 58.1kg out the car, still have a few brackets to remove (heavy ones in the engine bay and an under frunk bracket), will be driving the car to work tomorrow and will see what its like, normally the car would have an 81kg offset to the driver side, it would now have a 94kg offset. I am sure that Toyota would have factored in that there will be many different sizes of driver so it just means that I could be heavier than I am and it should still be safe - will be moving the battery to the front left to balance as much as I can to the front.
Need to really find a way to weigh the car to see what sort of weight its currently at but will hopefully be close to the ton mark - still got the spoiler to remove as well as the soft top material.
Agreed on the offset side of things, I imagine they just decide on a standard average driver's size. Although without wanting to sound unkind your average Japanese aren't known to be giant in stature!(Sumo wrestlers aside, obviously) The seats aren't very substantial no but soon become very heavy when you're trying to wrestle the backs back on!
If you're forgoing the passenger what about the passenger airbag, seatbelt etc?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just taken the car out again and put it around a few tight roundabouts (have done it before when it was stock to see what the grip levels were like), I can feel that the front end is lighter (owing to the spare wheel not being at the front anymore) but it definitely accelerates better.
With regards to the passenger seat, I will be keeping the passenger seat in most of the time, will only remove it when going racing, the car is mainly a road car rather than a track only car - 4 bolts and a connector and its back to a 2 seater, removed the seat in about 5 minutes so will be keeping the airbag and seatbelts. Also would have an issue with the MOT if the seatbelt was missing as well as an airbag light on if I removed the airbag - not worth it for the couple of kgs I would save in that respect.
I think apart from converting to hard top only I am getting closer to running the minimum weight I want to strip out, beyond this I would start removing dash bits and door cars which wouldn't make the car enjoyable for 95% of the time - I can't actually see most of what I have removed as its all behind the seats, looking forward it looks fairly stock.
I will look to run the car in its current configuration but with the same almost full fuel tank - this will give a side by side comparison of what the weight reduction will give you. I can then start on the intake mods and reduce the fuel load onboard as well as fit the Dastek unichip for a slight boost in power.
Just on the drive all of the LTFTs are at 0% with only a 1-2% correction on the STFTs, I seem to have an issue with bank 1 sensor 2 values again eg the main cat O2 sensor! seems to be giving a very low reading so hopefully that hasn't already gone after 100 miles!
Weight saving? :
l viewtopic.php?f=108&t=62957&p=736515#p736515 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=62957&p=736515#p736515) l
Quote from: "shnazzle"Weight saving? :
l viewtopic.php?f=108&t=62957&p=736515#p736515 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=62957&p=736515#p736515) l
Thanks for that, I am already running an aftermarket decat manifold, not sure of the brand, I have the OEM one with the cats still in it in the garage, its super heavy! Will weight it when I get home, its why I based this project on the 'as delivered' weight rather than stock weight as it had a tiny bit of weight reduction when I collected it from the manifold swap etc.
I am going to be taking out the OEM aerial tonight hopefully, need to jack the car off and take the wheel and arch liner off to get to it, plan to change the rear brake pads over the weekend as they are pretty much gone and adjust the handbrake. The good news is that the handbrake cables seem to be free moving so a previous owner might have swapped them out when the rear calipers were swapped, I have a feeling that the hand brake doesn't work well at the moment due to low pads and a pitted disc plus not being adjusted.
I have also found where the rattle is coming from - its from the heat shield on the lower part of the manifold, I can just wobble it around as although its welded together its not actually attached anywhere anymore, might look to cut that off and then wrap the exhaust at some point although might change the exhaust soon.
Just removed the TTE rear spoiler, it weighs 2.525kg, so basically heavier than the radio!
So I have so far pulled just over 60kg from the car and the spoiler removal will actually help the weight distribution a bit as well - might look at fitting the spare splitter I have in the garage at some point to help the front end.
I have also bought an Apexi intake which fits behind the battery, will be interesting to see how well that works vs the stock airbox vs a modded airbox.
60kg is a lot!
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Quote from: "shnazzle"60kg is a lot!
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Still have some exhaust brackets plus the aerial to remove as well and I am still running the FL braces etc coupled with liquid weight saving of not running as much fuel plus I still have the softtop!
Quote from: "m1tch"I have just weighed the stock hard top, its coming in at 23.1kg so not a huge weight reduction versus the soft top but it should be lighter once I remove the latches and fit the solid mount kit - hopefully the soft top roof comes to more than 25kg!
Solid mount kit? Are these available somewhere? I tried a Google, but only found the detachable kits.
rogue motorsport
Quote from: "alancsalt"Quote from: "m1tch"I have just weighed the stock hard top, its coming in at 23.1kg so not a huge weight reduction versus the soft top but it should be lighter once I remove the latches and fit the solid mount kit - hopefully the soft top roof comes to more than 25kg!
Solid mount kit? Are these available somewhere? I tried a Google, but only found the detachable kits.
Yeah, going to phone Rogue motorsports for their kit, I think there is also a kit over in the US, to be fair one of the main reasons to get it is for security as its quite easy to just break a window and unclip the expensive hard top!
I believe the solid mount kit has to have the soft top removed 100% to fit the side mounts, will initially start with the front latches and then sort out removing the rest of the soft top from the seatbelt mounts etc.
Just removed the other frunk under bracket, had to cut it out due to rounded bolt, it comes to 120g.
Ok, so the current total weight reduction so far including some bits adding back in (Sat nav, locking wheel nut, OBD2 reader and 12v socket) comes to: 60.957kg removed - I still have the OEM aerial to remove along with some under bracing plus some exhaust brackets but its not a bad weight reduction. Its worth noting that I had a helmet and a tyre compressor in the car so those have technically been removed but they weren't part of the stock car - but were with me on the various runs.
Just pulled out the aerial and some of the wiring, still have some wiring to remove but that comes to 913g, so I have now taken out 61.87kg and I still have the evap system, some exhaust brackets still on the engine as well as possibly the front fog lights. Its starting to get down to some smaller items however I still have the soft top in place so will hopefully get some weight reduction there but it doesn't really look too stripped out as everything forward of the seats is pretty much the same - not having any stereo actually opens up the whole cabin quite a bit.
Here is the updated list of the initial list:
New rear tyres - DONE
Brake discs and pads - bought, but only rears need sorting, fronts have plenty of pad, plan to do that soon
Adjust handbrake - adjusted
Possibly rebuild rear calipers if sticking - Caliper are fine
Paint up brake calipers - Might just leave as OEM
New wiper blades - DONE
Hard top and fitting kit - DONE
Refurb alloys - waiting for weather to improve
Find rattle in engine bay - Think this is the manifold heat shield, still investigating
Replace main cat O2 sensor - DONE
Replace/refresh number plates - DONE
Check bores/pistons of engine using bore webcam - DONE
Check current spark plugs for engine health - DONE - replaced
Compression check engine - DONE - cold compression test shows even pressure on all cylinders
Replace failed bulbs for instrument backlight - need to order bulbs once I work out which ones I need
Check status of check engine light bulb on instrument PCB - DONE - check engine light has tape in front of it within the cluster
Check camchain for play - DONE - No play, chain tight
Replace/reseat rocker cover gasket to sort possible leak - DONE - Gasket changed when checking cam chain
Replace cam chain O ring to repair main oil leak - O ring has arrived, fitting soon
Check for possible exhaust blow - Exhaust seems ok although is slightly rusted, TTE exhaust is original
Debadge rear - DONE
Replace 175,000 mile old fuel pump - still to do
Check steering U joint - still to do
Check rear subframe - initial check shows no rust but want to check closer - looks ok but will take off heat shields to check
Replace incorrect locking wheel nuts with correct flat washer locking wheel nuts to avoid snapping studs - DONE
Paint hard top - DONE
Polish headlights to remove clouding - DONE - headlights polished up a bit but don't seem too bad
New list:
Brake discs and pads - bought, but only rears need sorting, fronts have plenty of pad
Refurb alloys - waiting for weather to improve
Find rattle in engine bay - Think this is the manifold heat shield, still investigating
Fit new Apexi induction kit
Remove OEM exhaust brackets currently not used on engine block for weight reduction
Replace 175,000 mile old fuel pump - still to do
Check steering U joint - still to do
Rust treatment on any surface rust parts
Relocate battery
Replace cam chain O ring to repair main oil leak - O ring has arrived, fitting soon
Remove remaining aerial cabling
Fit Dastek Unichip and check for overfueling
Remove soft top
Quote from: "m1tch"Yeah, going to phone Rogue motorsports for their kit, I think there is also a kit over in the US, to be fair one of the main reasons to get it is for security as its quite easy to just break a window and unclip the expensive hard top!
I've seen you mention this a few times. I'm taking it you've removed your alarm?
I think most of us have done the alarm mod which not only gives you more room in the frunk, but also means the alarm will now wake the dead!
Even if you live in the roughest of rough places, I can't see anyone taking the time to remove anything once the alarm starts.
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Quote from: "m1tch"Yeah, going to phone Rogue motorsports for their kit, I think there is also a kit over in the US, to be fair one of the main reasons to get it is for security as its quite easy to just break a window and unclip the expensive hard top!
I've seen you mention this a few times. I'm taking it you've removed your alarm?
I think most of us have done the alarm mod which not only gives you more room in the frunk, but also means the alarm will now wake the dead!
Even if you live in the roughest of rough places, I can't see anyone taking the time to remove anything once the alarm starts.
I have retained the OEM alarm, its the only thing left in the frunk - its not sitting on the front cross member using one of the threaded holes that was freed up after I removed the frunk support straps.
After having a further thoughts and to give this project a goal in terms of power I have decided that the power goal for this project is the same as the 'Gentleman's agreement' for Japanese manufacturers which was set at 276bhp although this ended in 2005.
With this figure in mind and the car's weight reduced to around 950kg (still need to weigh the car) it would give me around 295bhp per ton and giving me a low 12 second 1/4 mile time.
Considering some of the cars in the 'FI performance' section of the site are pushing 300 or more bhp this should be attainable although would be out of reach on a stock internal engine, the gearbox would be the next weak link and I am planning to upgrade 3rd and 4th gear which should allow me to push past this figure in the future.
Although I don't need to I have booked the MR2 in for an MOT next Tuesday, its not due until the start of December but don't really want to be fixing things in winter and then driving it on icy roads to get to the garage! There were a few advisories on it in January, number plate (replaced), Partial exhaust leak (new gasket fitted by previous owner) and hand brake close to minimum (now adjusted so the hand brake actually works!).
Fingers crossed it should pass ok, if not it means I have some time to go through and fix anything else that is outstanding to make sure its a good solid car.
I think you should up your power goal to 280 bhp and 250 ft-lb of torque.
Double stock.
Quote from: "1979scotte"I think you should up your power goal to 280 bhp and 250 ft-lb of torque.
Double stock.
Hmm double stock sounds like a good goal and quite attainable although not on stock pistons and rods, keeping the torque to 250 ft/lbs max would mean I could run a stock box although still tempted to upgrade the box whilst everything is out.
If going for forged internals and upgraded box aim north of 300.
What turbo are you using?
Quote from: "1979scotte"If going for forged internals and upgraded box aim north of 300.
What turbo are you using?
I like the option with a turbo to select the power level, so yeah I will aim higher, not sure what the next thing that might have an issue might be, will probably be the head as I think the crank is good for a fair bit of power.
Still deciding on a turbo, need to work out some flow calculations and check the compressor maps, thinking larger than a t28, the exhaust manifold link you sent is for a T3 flange so I could look to a GT30 size turbo, might look at hybrid options though.
Garrett Gtx29
BW EFR6258.
Something like a gt2860rs will spool well but will be pushing hard.
Perhaps you would consider a Rotrex supercharger instead. A C30 94 would be a good choice.
Don't need a manifold then.
Interesting read Mitch, been a while since I last read your thread. The weight saving is impressive, when on the road I'd personally leave in the spare and toolkit, but when you get to the track that can come out.
In terms of next weight saving item I would look at a LiPo battery, I'm sure there's some info floating around about one that is around the 1kg mark.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Garrett Gtx29
BW EFR6258.
Something like a gt2860rs will spool well but will be pushing hard.
Perhaps you would consider a Rotrex supercharger instead. A C30 94 would be a good choice.
Don't need a manifold then.
Still looking into options on sizing, I am leaning towards a turbo as I can run the engine at 5psi and 22psi and have different power levels whereas with a supercharger I would have to fit some sort of bleed valve to reduce the overall boost pressure, the manifold isn't that expensive for the turbo and it will also aid in cutting some of the exhaust noise level down.
I will initially be looking to run on stock internals so will start with a smaller turbo and probably make around 220bhp, after I build up a forged engine I can swap turbos, turn it up and see what the engine can do.
I am thinking of fitting a wastegate and boost solenoid on my supercharger setup.
If starting off small the world is your oyster.
Loads of Subaru and VW turbos floating about where people have upgraded.
Also the turbo used in the TTE kit can be had for about 300 ish.
Quote from: "jonty"Interesting read Mitch, been a while since I last read your thread. The weight saving is impressive, when on the road I'd personally leave in the spare and toolkit, but when you get to the track that can come out.
In terms of next weight saving item I would look at a LiPo battery, I'm sure there's some info floating around about one that is around the 1kg mark.
Thanks, the weight saving doesn't look to drastic as all the weight removed is mainly behind the seats or out of sight so (apart from the missing passenger seat) it all looks fairly stock, not having anything in the centre console area really does make the car more airy!
I will look at batteries at some point, will look to move the battery into the frunk area soon as this frees up space in the engine bay as well as moves some weight to the front of the car. Looking at the car as it currently is, there can be weight removed from:
Brackets on the back of the engine (used for the OEM heat shield I believe)
Battery
Front foglights - although might just keep them in as I would class them as a safety item
Soft top removal - this isn't going to yield the weight saving I was hoping for as the softtop seems to be slightly lighter
Regarding removing the tool kit and spare for road use, I was thinking of having one of those tyre weld kits, however I have AA relay so I can get recovered from anywhere in Europe to anywhere else in Europe so if I do get a puncture I will just call the AA out to recover me back home.
Still sounds a ball ache mate, you'll get a spare wheel fitted in 5 minutes and a call out for AA is going to take way longer, for quite minimal gain on the road.
With the LiPo battery they are so small you'll get the space saving anyway even in stock position, so I'd look at that first.
Quote from: "jonty"Still sounds a ball ache mate, you'll get a spare wheel fitted in 5 minutes and a call out for AA is going to take way longer, for quite minimal gain on the road.
With the LiPo battery they are so small you'll get the space saving anyway even in stock position, so I'd look at that first.
Point taken, its not my daily drive so its not on the road a huge amount, will look at refitting the frunk for road use as well as the tool kit.
Will have a look at the Lipo batteries, have even seen a few cars running with supercapaciter banks.
Quote from: "m1tch"its not my daily drive...
...have even seen a few cars running with supercapaciter banks.
I didn't realise it's not your daily, though I'd still prefer to only bin the spare out at the track!
Interesting on super caps, hadn't heard of that...
Quote from: "jonty"Quote from: "m1tch"its not my daily drive...
...have even seen a few cars running with supercapaciter banks.
I didn't realise it's not your daily, though I'd still prefer to only bin the spare out at the track!
Interesting on super caps, hadn't heard of that...
Yeah I might look to reinstate the spare at some point for road use, you can feel a difference in the car's performance with the current weight saving though.
Yeah I have seen a few supercapaciter batteries being used more as an experiment on some cars, some have a small 12v bike battery along side it as an emergency recharge if the engine doesn't start on the first go - will be looking at some of the lipo or LifeP04 batteries as well although will look to do a battery relocation anyway for weight distribution.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "jonty"Interesting read Mitch, been a while since I last read your thread. The weight saving is impressive, when on the road I'd personally leave in the spare and toolkit, but when you get to the track that can come out.
In terms of next weight saving item I would look at a LiPo battery, I'm sure there's some info floating around about one that is around the 1kg mark.
Thanks, the weight saving doesn't look to drastic as all the weight removed is mainly behind the seats or out of sight so (apart from the missing passenger seat) it all looks fairly stock, not having anything in the centre console area really does make the car more airy!
I will look at batteries at some point, will look to move the battery into the frunk area soon as this frees up space in the engine bay as well as moves some weight to the front of the car. Looking at the car as it currently is, there can be weight removed from:
Brackets on the back of the engine (used for the OEM heat shield I believe)
Battery
Front foglights - although might just keep them in as I would class them as a safety item
Soft top removal - this isn't going to yield the weight saving I was hoping for as the softtop seems to be slightly lighter
Regarding removing the tool kit and spare for road use, I was thinking of having one of those tyre weld kits, however I have AA relay so I can get recovered from anywhere in Europe to anywhere else in Europe so if I do get a puncture I will just call the AA out to recover me back home.
I'd read the small print, othet motoring originations stipulate if a spare was originally supplied and is now unserviceable, they'll take you to the nearest tyre depot or call mobile tyre fitter to attend at your expense
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Quote from: "stchris356"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "jonty"Interesting read Mitch, been a while since I last read your thread. The weight saving is impressive, when on the road I'd personally leave in the spare and toolkit, but when you get to the track that can come out.
In terms of next weight saving item I would look at a LiPo battery, I'm sure there's some info floating around about one that is around the 1kg mark.
Thanks, the weight saving doesn't look to drastic as all the weight removed is mainly behind the seats or out of sight so (apart from the missing passenger seat) it all looks fairly stock, not having anything in the centre console area really does make the car more airy!
I will look at batteries at some point, will look to move the battery into the frunk area soon as this frees up space in the engine bay as well as moves some weight to the front of the car. Looking at the car as it currently is, there can be weight removed from:
Brackets on the back of the engine (used for the OEM heat shield I believe)
Battery
Front foglights - although might just keep them in as I would class them as a safety item
Soft top removal - this isn't going to yield the weight saving I was hoping for as the softtop seems to be slightly lighter
Regarding removing the tool kit and spare for road use, I was thinking of having one of those tyre weld kits, however I have AA relay so I can get recovered from anywhere in Europe to anywhere else in Europe so if I do get a puncture I will just call the AA out to recover me back home.
I'd read the small print, othet motoring originations stipulate if a spare was originally supplied and is now unserviceable, they'll take you to the nearest tyre depot or call mobile tyre fitter to attend at your expense
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Will check the small print - might look to run with one of those 'tyres in a can' as most modern cars don't usually run a spare, have noticed that the AA and RAC have a 'universal spare wheel' which can be used on a temporary basis to get you home for cars without a spare wheel.
Decided to put the car through an early MOT to reset the MOT date to summer time rather than at the start of January as it was originally (so I don't need to drive the car during the ice and snow etc).
It passed with a few advisories, need to look into the shock as that should be pretty much brand new, I have all new discs and pads to fit all round as well but the pressure is off to sort things.
Advisory notice item(s)
Offside Rear Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)
brake disc worn, pitted or scored, but not seriously weakened both fronts (3.5.1i)
spare wheel missing
Windscreen has damage to an area less than a 40mm circle outside zone 'A' (8.3.1d)
parking brake performance only just met requirments
Power FC is on the way along with a basemap and an NA remap with similar mods (as well as a few turbo maps), I need to get myself a wideband O2 before I start running it though, the ECU should give me a bit of extra power and flexibility with tuning NA and low boost turbo, will probably look to swap out to an AEM EMS4 at a later date.
I will look to see what I can do with the PFC and will probably also get myself a 3 bar MAP sensor which should be compatible - initially going with the PFC as its the most common standalone to run so there will be some support out there for a mild power build.
The weather at the moment however is pretty rubbish so I can't really get out in the car or do many mods on it, still need to refurb the wheels and sort the brakes but those can wait a bit, I am also starting to clear the garage for some spare for engine building now that we are more settled into our new house.
You can't run a 1zz PFC with a MAP sensor.
They don't make a J detro kit for it.
Even there own MR2 Apexi turbo kit ran a MAF.
Quote from: "1979scotte"You can't run a 1zz PFC with a MAP sensor.
They don't make a J detro kit for it.
Even there own MR2 Apexi turbo kit ran a MAF.
Hmm so I am guessing it just works on air flow, just working it through in my head, the MAF would be pre turbo so the volume of air drawn into the turbo before its compressed would be the value it fuels off. There would also be an air temp reading as well, but I would also look to fit an air temp post intercooler as well - perhaps using that as the 'air intake temp' as that would be the temp of the air actually going into the engine.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"You can't run a 1zz PFC with a MAP sensor.
They don't make a J detro kit for it.
Even there own MR2 Apexi turbo kit ran a MAF.
Hmm so I am guessing it just works on air flow - but how would the ECU know about the level of boost its running at as it might have the same air flow but at a higher pressure?
Don't quote me but you have to have external boost control maybe.
My turbo kit had a boost control solenoid don't think it had a map sensor.
Was using Unichip piggyback.
PFC will be fine for modest power levels and for what you paid with the Hako it was a steal.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"You can't run a 1zz PFC with a MAP sensor.
They don't make a J detro kit for it.
Even there own MR2 Apexi turbo kit ran a MAF.
Hmm so I am guessing it just works on air flow - but how would the ECU know about the level of boost its running at as it might have the same air flow but at a higher pressure?
Don't quote me but you have to have external boost control maybe.
My turbo kit had a boost control solenoid don't think it had a map sensor.
Was using Unichip piggyback.
PFC will be fine for modest power levels and for what you paid with the Hako it was a steal.
I will be running an external boost controller anyway, I know that some ECUs actually have a boost/vacuum port built in to directly measure everything 'in house' so to speak.
PFC will be fine as you said for modest levels - NA and low boost on the stock engine, will be swapping out to a better ECU in the future with the built engine.
I agree that the ECU setup was a good deal, I still have that Dastek unichip in the garage which is premapped for intake and exhaust, will be interesting to see the differences in the 2 maps between PFC and Unichip.
Need to get a wideband next, I see that the LC-1 has been superceeded with the LC-2, might however just go with an AEM kit, as long as it has a Bosch sensor I am happy, might still check out the LC-1 though.
Nothing wrong with MAF-based mapping for turbo and external boost control. Hell, in the big boys leagues of Supras and GTRs they swear by MAF turbo setups.
Separate boost controller is better anyway
NA the PFC will blow the Dastek out of the water
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Didn't they swap the MAF out for a Supra one on the spyderchat 1zz rotrex kit?
I just think it is the 1zz MAF that suffers at high flow rates.
The 1zz MAF is quite small, I know the Skyline guys swap out their MAFs for the 300ZX MAFs which I know from experience are massive lol - wonder if you could rebase the MAF values to run the same MAF sensor in a large diameter pipe?
Yes indeed. It will need swapping. The 1zz maf maxes out dead easy. Hence the need for a voltage cap on boosted applications. But that obviously only works on a piggyback to trick the stock ECU.
On standalone.. Definitely bigger flow maf. s:) :) s:)
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Yes the Apexi was a steal, but for the mods we have planned it wasn't really suitable anymore. I lost a few quid but it's not the end of the world.
I want to streamline my setup by having boost control and water injection controlled by the ECU and the PFC can't do that easily
My Rotrex setup used a Scooby MAF, plug & play fitment. I can dig the part number out if needed?
Quote from: "J03"My Rotrex setup used a Scooby MAF, plug & play fitment. I can dig the part number out if needed?
That would be useful, will then check the bore of the MAF, guessing that MAF has the same connector and is calibrated for the MAF/tube diameter combo for the signal? Might look into how the MAF could be rescaled if running in a larger pipe etc.
Denso 197400-2090
Quote from: "J03"Denso 197400-2090
Thank you - am I correct to say that I would need to re calibrate the ECU for it to correctly run this MAF, guessing the MAF has a wider scale for readings so guessing the voltage outputs won't be the same as the 1zz stock MAF?
I have now got my PFC and am currently working on getting all of the software required onto a laptop ready for logging, I have a few maps for the 1zz, some came with the PFC and one is the MWR basemap which is a much better basemap than the stock Apexi map.
I have just ordered the new AEM X series wideband gauge which has the latest Bosch sensor (like the Innovate LC-2) which doesn't degrade or go out of calibration over time which should be good for the longevity of tuning using the wideband. The Apexi doesn't need to use the stock O2 sensors but can do to adjust the fuel trims a bit, will initially plug the PFC in with the MWR map and see what values I get via the FC Hako - checking knock levels as well.
The AEM kit comes with a weld in bung which I will look to have added into the pipework somewhere, might look to try and fit it pre cat as when I do go low boost turbo I will initially be running with the stock cat and only change the manifold and get a downpipe made to connect to the rest of the stock system.
Once the wideband is fitted (need to find a switched live and ground - I could use the radio harness as I have no audio in the car) I can then look to use the Co-Pilot autotune functionality to further optimise the MWR basemap to my car.
A slight bump in power and a reduction in weight should mean that I could run around a second or quicker down the 1/4 mile - next time I run I am tempted to run the stock ECU and then plug in the PFC to run back to back runs to see the difference.
I am going to start pulling together parts for a turbo upgrade on the stock engine probably over the winter with an aim to fit things next year - one of the PFC maps I have is for a turbo so I could look to use that as a starter but might just look to book some dyno time.
I have also found that the previous owner replaced the front 2 shocks with the rear 2 shocks being stock but all running on the Tein sport springs, the MOT stated that there was a light misting of the rear shock so might look to replace the pair of shock at around £100 each of bit the bullet and go with some coilovers.
I will also be looking to remove the stock evap canister on the right of the engine bay, I have ordered a tank vent breather, should remove around a kilo of weight from the back.
I have now managed to connect up the PFC, I have the map that is currently on the PFC which was apparently a dyno tuned NA with a few breathing mods as well as the MWR map - I have tried both on the car and I can see from the MWR map that its fairly rough it seems and there are some quite 'blocky' figures - the VVTi table for example has almost a square island of normal numbers with a sea of 60s around it whereas the tuned NA map has some good graduation. Looking at some of the guides it would seem that around 55 is fully retarded in terms of VVTi advance so it looks like the MWR has quite a safe map in terms of ignition timing eg basically tuning off the VVTI advance in quite a few scenarios.
I have the wideband sensor now, just need to wire it all in, will initially run the O2 sensor in one of the stock manifold locations but will look to get the O2 bung welded in so I get all exhaust flow rather than just from 2 cylinders.
I also have a fuel tank vent breather used on bikes which are used to vent the tank as well as any anti spill valve - will be using that to replace the current vent setup for some weight reduction in the rear as well as freeing up some space.
I have also ordered a windows 10 tablet which I will be using in the car to connect up to the FC Hako with Co-pilot running along with the O2 sensor, this will mean that I have an additional set of gauges in the car and allow me to carry on logging the car to make adjustments to the map. Once I have run the car in a few different scenarios and am happy that the map is good for my car's setup I will look to run the standard PFC commander and keep an eye on knock levels etc - will take a bit of time to get the map dialed in though but it looks like I have a good basemap to go with.
I am also running the car with the stock ECU on board as well so that if I have any issues with the PFC I can simply unplug it and plug the stock ECU back in - will also look to do this at the drag strip next year so I can see what the difference is between the stock ECU with less weight and a road tuned map optimising the engine as best as possible.
I will then look to add a turbo probably next year, I also have a turbo map that I can use, however with the low boost setup I will look to get it to a dyno for better mapping, plenty of other things I need to sort out first though!
Out of interest what was the issue with the PC-FC-Hako?
Might be useful to others s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Out of interest what was the issue with the PC-FC-Hako?
Might be useful to others s:) :) s:)
The driver I was using was too old and the latest driver makes the Hako come up with an error when plugged in - needed to installed a slightly backdated driver from 2007, I think the initial driver I tried was from 2006 - its all working fine on Windows 10.
I have now installed a wideband O2 sensor in one of the OEM O2 locations and have run the car with the PFC to see what sort of AFRs the car is running - not good as its running very rich but that was to be expected as its running on a map from a dyno tuned NA which I am guessing has a better intake and exhaust system.
On cruise it runs at around 12.5:1 whereas on throttle it runs as rich as 9.5:1 - I was expecting lumps of coal to come out the exhaust! I can also see that its also trying to compensate the idle due to it running so rich plus it does bog down.
I am not too worried about it though as I can plug the HAKO into the wideband and get some autotuning done, it should cut out a fair bit of fuel from the map - only went on a short run with it as I didn't want to get bore wash due to how rich it was running or indeed foul the plugs.
Just as a reminder; what "stage" are you at now? Just wondering why it's so rich. The car does tend to run a bit on the rich side anyway
Quote from: "shnazzle"Just as a reminder; what "stage" are you at now? Just wondering why it's so rich. The car does tend to run a bit on the rich side anyway
Currently just reduction in weight, drop in filter and stock TTE exhaust, I believe that the map the car is currently on came from a car that had quite similar mods so it should be close, guess the exhaust probably isn't flowing as well as an aftermarket unit?
Just having a few issues to get the HAKO to recognise the AEM wideband I have plugged in, I have followed the instructions on the site and matched with the wiring from the AEM but its not currently working so I can't autotune as of yet!
The exhaust isn't the problem (yet). The cat is still the main blocker. Assuming the pre-cats are out.
The stock intake flows nicely for peak power but I suspect it causes a tiny bit of resistance at initial throttle. I think that's why a few people (including me) noticed a bit more immediacy to the throttle when changing to a cone filter.
The PFC is said to really open up the capabilities and mid-range torque so curious to see how things go.
Quote from: "shnazzle"The exhaust isn't the problem (yet). The cat is still the main blocker. Assuming the pre-cats are out.
The stock intake flows nicely for peak power but I suspect it causes a tiny bit of resistance at initial throttle. I think that's why a few people (including me) noticed a bit more immediacy to the throttle when changing to a cone filter.
The PFC is said to really open up the capabilities and mid-range torque so curious to see how things go.
I am running a completely decat manifold but yeah the main cat is still in there which would be a fairly big restriction, stock box should be fine.
Having an issue with trying to get copilot to recognise the wideband input from the Hako - its got voltage going to it correctly as I have just checked with a multi meter and it changes depending on the AFR shown if I blip the throttle, not sure if there is a hidden setting in Copilot to enable me to use the wideband?
Checked the fc-hako wb02 installation manual?
http://fc-hako.com/pfc/faq/#ref-q03
Quite a few do's and don'ts in there
Quote from: "shnazzle"Checked the fc-hako wb02 installation manual?
http://fc-hako.com/pfc/faq/#ref-q03
Quite a few do's and don'ts in there
Yeah I have carefully followed that, checked the AEM manual for the positive and earth signal wires, there is voltage there but Copilot isn't picking it up so might just mean I need to restart of turn things on in a different order for it to pick up the voltage.
Just picked up a spare engine, currently in the process of stripping it down ready to get the block bored and honed, need to also start looking for a C64 gearbox with LSD so I can get that rebuilt with the upgraded internals.
I have just uninstalled the PFC and Hako from the car and I am now back running on the stock ECU, I need to get the car professionally mapped so I would rather run on the stock ECU for the time being, here is my thinking:
Running the car stock NA with stock ECU - probably about 135bhp due to mileage?
Running the car stock NA with PFC - probably around 150bhp - gain of say 10-15bhp
Running the car built Turbo with PFC - Probably between 220-300bhp - gain of 85-165bhp
What I am thinking is that I could get the car mapped professionally on the dyno with the car NA and get a small gain, or simply wait a bit and spend the same amount of money on mapping and get far more power out of the engine.
I am going to see how much more weight I can pull out the car or mod in the time being with the current power levels and still build up the engine in the mean time.
I am thinking of going this route:
Stock engine, NA with stock ECU
Built engine (with low compression pistons). NA with stock ECU - need to check this is ok to run, engine will be slightly down on power but will be run in
Built engine, turbo with PFC - will then get this mapped professionally
There is no reason why I can't run the boost ready engine in NA form, it will be slightly down on power but all of the parts to upgrade to a turbo - fueling, exhaust, chargecooler etc can be done with the engine in. I will also need to run the engine in anyway so simply bolting all the stock parts back up and run the stock ECU should keep it on a safe map in for the first 500 miles or so.
I came to the realisation earlier this evening that I had spent the last week or so sitting in the car trying to sort the car out on the PFC when I could have just been driving around in my MR2 enjoying myself s:) :) s:)
I am going to 'make do' with the power I currently have which is ample due to the close ratio gearbox and LSD and work on a few bits on the car that make me love the car even more, here are a few bits I want to sort:
New gearknob
Wideangle rearview mirror
Sort out rattle in engine bay (cat heat shield I think)
Relocate battery
Change chain tensioner O ring
Refurb wheels
Touch up a few parts on the hard top in black (missed/masked a few bits I shouldn't have when spraying it)
Tidy up interior
Replace a few of the bulbs in the instrument cluster that have blown
Research subtle aero mods
Change gearbox oil
Remove soft top but retain stock seatbelts
Shame you're not doing the PFC. Was quite interested in seeing the gains on a stock setup. So far all pfc implementations on NA have been in combination with cams or the like.
But agree, need to drive it!
Quote from: "shnazzle"Shame you're not doing the PFC. Was quite interested in seeing the gains on a stock setup. So far all pfc implementations on NA have been in combination with cams or the like.
But agree, need to drive it!
My car isn't 100% stock though as it has the standard mods of high flow air filter, decat exhaust manifold and TTE backbox, might look to try the MAF riser mod, car was running pig rich. I have the wideband though so I can see what the AFRs are like, I have a feeling that my engine doesn't have the best airflow through it though as even with the plug and play Dastek chip it was running rich etc.
I might try it another time, just can't get my head around using Copilot as its now old software and doesn't have much support anymore with quite a few of the support files not being hosted anywhere.
As mentioned in the title though, its a long term project and I am going to try a few mods of my own to see what you can do with the stock ECU.
Cool.
MAF mod is a trick. I'd always prefer an ecu-based solution over that.
Airflow should be absolutely fine so suspect the rich running will have more to do with either duff sensors (maf/o2) or a leak somewhere. Shouldn't be running pig rich from stock.
Can definitely see your point on CoPilot, it's massively outdated and really needs a pro to sort it... and then for what? Bernie's is pushing 171hp with flywheel, stg1 cams, PPE intake, sports cat and free flowing exhaust and well-tuned PFC...
A whopping 30bhp.
So you're probably right about the 150ish.
I probably make more hp wearing t-shirt and shorts and going on a diet.
So, best to just knock it on the head and slap a turbo on for an easy 100hp
Quote from: "shnazzle"Cool.
MAF mod is a trick. I'd always prefer an ecu-based solution over that.
Airflow should be absolutely fine so suspect the rich running will have more to do with either duff sensors (maf/o2) or a leak somewhere. Shouldn't be running pig rich from stock.
Can definitely see your point on CoPilot, it's massively outdated and really needs a pro to sort it... and then for what? Bernie's is pushing 171hp with flywheel, stg1 cams, PPE intake, sports cat and free flowing exhaust and well-tuned PFC...
A whopping 30bhp.
So you're probably right about the 150ish.
I probably make more hp wearing t-shirt and shorts and going on a diet.
So, best to just knock it on the head and slap a turbo on for an easy 100hp
Yeah, I will look into other options to run the ECU in a slightly different part of the stock map and see where that gets me - was meant to say that it was running super rich when using the PFC and couldn't get the Copilot autotune to pull out fueling. I have noticed that the stock ECU does run to around 12:1 on WOT so its not too bad, I think its just being conservative with the ignition timing and use of VVTi.
NA tuning is expensive for not a huge amount of gain, I will still use the PFC just not right now, at least I know it will all work when the time comes to run it and can load a turbo basemap and rescale the injectors etc to get the car drivable to a dyno etc.
I think I will look to get the spare engine built up as well as the gearbox upgraded, swap that in at some point and run the stock ECU (with no real power gains but no oil usage!), will then look to bolt on the turbo and run the PFC, might upgrade further to an AEM EMS4 in the future depending on the limitations of mapping on the PFC for higher power.
Its also why I am looking at ways to remove some weight, I do want to remove weight out the car but I also want to make sure its still usable as a car considering its still a road car, I am however going for the power to weight ratio as removing weight helps all over the car not just acceleration but cornering as well as fuel economy.
Now that the weather is getting a bit wetter there is less chance I have to get to drive the car so will look to do a few larger mods soon (such as the soft top removal) as this would take the car off the road until the seatbelt brackets are back in the car.
I've seriously gone off the idea of forging my 1zz cause of the near release of the S3 conversion , so my whole turbo setup may be up for sale soon , just a thought ......
Quote from: "paul.mcgrath"I've seriously gone off the idea of forging my 1zz cause of the near release of the S3 conversion , so my whole turbo setup may be up for sale soon , just a thought ......
Not sure if your setup will be able to support the power I will be aiming for but will bear it in mind for a low boost setup.
OK sure , what numbers are you looking for ?
Kit is good for 270 whiffbitz said when fitting it , I've added intercooler and custom exhaust since then and have MWR 630 injectors and fuel rail ready to in aswell , Lee the sparky running same setup but much higher boost
Quote from: "paul.mcgrath"OK sure , what numbers are you looking for ?
Kit is good for 270 whiffbitz said when fitting it , I've added intercooler and custom exhaust since then and have MWR 630 injectors and fuel rail ready to in aswell , Lee the sparky running same setup but much higher boost
Looking at between 3-400 running around a bar and a half of boost as the engine will have forged internals - what ECU are you running?
I would love those numbers from our engine but from info I've read and been told even forging its seems the oil pick up issue will always be there and the gearbox doesn't like anything above 250ish torque wise even with the stronger gears , what are your thoughts ?
Apexi power commander ECU I'm running 0.4 bar , my car on whiffbitz site for dyno graph and other details
Quote from: "paul.mcgrath"I would love those numbers from our engine but from info I've read and been told even forging its seems the oil pick up issue will always be there and the gearbox doesn't like anything above 250ish torque wise even with the stronger gears , what are your thoughts ?
Apexi power commander ECU I'm running 0.4 bar , my car on whiffbitz site for dyno graph and other details
The Juba gearsets are rated to 400bhp+ and 265ftlb torque, I would look at running the E153 box but its too heavy and has the wrong gear ratios.
I think I am going to go with a custom setup for my needs and piece it together myself as I would probably run a charge cooler instead.
Update on the PFC - I have now slept on it and decided to give it another go and have now had some success:
I know that for some reason my car runs rather rich on the premapped unichip as well as the MWR basemap, its rich everywhere so I decided to reset everything to the MWR basemap again and start over.
The fueling is based on the basemap vs the injection map, Copilot changes the injection map whereas I have read its best to leave the injection map all at 100% - so you can also scale injectors base off the stock settings.
I am therefore tweaking the basemap but using Copilot to edit multiple cells, I knew that the map for my car was rich everywhere so I simply pulled out 5% of the values within the basemap and hey presto the car runs much better. Its still running richer than I would like at the slightly higher engine load (which is good for safety) but much better driveability. I have also logged knock etc and the highest I have seen so far on the runs I have done was I believe 23 which was at low load and might have been on decel.
I am going to tweak the map and see how the logged AFRs and knock looks like but only tweak certain parts, I can see that at the higher RPMs and load the car is getting much richer so I will look to take out say 1% basemap from those values and then see how it goes. I have found a suggested AFR target by cell and there is also a smoothing tool when editing blocks of cells.
I am going to have another go at the PFC and see where I end up, I still have the stock ECU if I need to swap back but its really good to be able to log the AFRs and knock values I can get from the PFC though which is really very useful so I can nibble away at honing the cells but the simple reduction for the whole map has done wonders and the knock levels even under load are in either single figures or low 10s - I would get concerned if the figure gets about around 20.
I have also found that there is a function within FC edit where it can recalc the base map and reset the injector map to 1.000 - you can't actually get to the basemap with the commander whereas I can with FC edit and Copilot, I am going to have another go using Copilot for autotuning as I initially avoided it again as it was adjusting the injector map - now that I know I can recalc the basemap and reset the injector map back to 1.000 I will be happier with scaling when fitting different injectors.
Have decided to pull the PFC out again, was running it on a tuned NA map from another car which was performing well, however with only a small increase in performance vs the possible issue of running lean due to it not being the same engine its mapped to I decided its best to pull it out.
With regards to power goals for the car I thought it would be good to chose a car that I admire but won't be able to ever afford to then see if I can get the same power to weight ratio from it, my thoughts went to the Nissan GTR R35 which produces various levels of power but has a fairly heavy kerb weight of 1,740kg.
The BHP per ton of the various facelift models were:
Initial - 478bhp @ 1740kg = 279 bhp per ton
2010 - 523bhp @ 1740kg = 305 bhp per ton
2012 - 545bhp @ 1740kg = 318 bhp per ton
Nismo - 591bhp @ 1740kg = 344 bhp per ton
GT1 & GT3- 590bhp @ 1250kg = 480 bhp per ton
From these figures you can see that the GT1 or GT3 cars are kinda out the picture to match up, but then again those aren't road going cars so the aim would be to go for the top spec Nismo GTR.
Due to the lower weight of the MR2 and some weight reduction I should be able to shave it down to around 950kg (maybe less), looking at a few power levels here are the calculations:
280bhp (double stock) - 299bhp per ton <---better than first GTRs
290bhp - 310 bhp per ton <---better than initial facelift GTRs
300bhp - 321 bhp per ton <---better than 2012 facelift GTRs
310bhp - 332 bhp per ton
320bhp - 342 bhp per ton <---close to Nismo edition
325bhp - 348 bhp per ton
450bhp - 481 bhp per ton <---GT1/GT3 GTR
Looks like my initial power goal is to run 325bhp, the Juba and SSC gears in the gearbox (my limiting factor) may hold at 450bhp however I think running the same power to weight as a Nismo GTR would be rather awesome!
Exhaust manifold is now off finally, cams are out, need to get myself a 10mm double hex socket to be able to get the head bolts out (will be replacing with ARP headstuds), will be good to see what the internals are like but everything so far is pointing to a well looked after engine.
I think 400bhp+ from a turbo 1zz would be undriveable on the road.
Anything over 300 bhp per ton puts you into seriously fast territory.
325 would do that for my V6. 1100kg.
Remember your body weight makes a significant difference to your power to weight.
I add 10% almost when I sit in my 2 with a GTR it would be under 6% and a Bentley Continental GT it would only be 4%.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Remember your body weight makes a significant difference to your power to weight.
I add 10% almost when I sit in my 2 with a GTR it would be under 6% and a Bentley Continental GT it would only be 4%.
Another added reason to go for a poo before embarking on a track day! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Also saves on clean up times should one run out of talent before one runs out of corner
LOL!
Quote from: "1979scotte"I think 400bhp+ from a turbo 1zz would be undriveable on the road.
Anything over 300 bhp per ton puts you into seriously fast territory.
325 would do that for my V6. 1100kg.
Remember your body weight makes a significant difference to your power to weight.
I add 10% almost when I sit in my 2 with a GTR it would be under 6% and a Bentley Continental GT it would only be 4%.
I will be taking my own weight into account as well (and are in the process of reducing it a bit), I once watched a video on Youtube on a track focused Civic over in the US, the guy was shaving every gram out the suspension, bodywork, doors lower arms etc. The guy however wasn't exactly lightweight shall we say and I saw in the comments someone had mentioned that it would be cheaper and more effective for the driver to go on a diet than the car! I need to get the car weighed once I remove the soft top somehow, might look to see if an alignment shop also has a set of corner weight scales so I can sort out car setup and get the car weighed at the same time.
I plan to get some of those K sport Coilovers from TCB soon, should reduce weight slightly more vs the stock shocks and Tein springs but give much more control in road holding.
I have come up with a slight issue with the car at the moment, the battery has decided to go flat so I think it might be how the wideband gauge is wired in, might look to temporarily remove the gauge as I am running on the stock ECU again as I believe it might be causing a slight drain in the system. I might even look to SORN it over the winter and upgrade suspension and sort out the soft top etc - one of the reasons why I bought a hard top was that I knew the car would be sitting around a bit in the wet so didn't want the car getting damp inside.
On another note, I have ordered a set of double hex sockets to be able to take the head off the engine, still need to sort out removing the front pulley so I can get the front cover off as well but will cross that bridge when I come to it - I do have the OEM flywheel so I should be able to reattach that and use it to lock the crank etc.
I have also just worked out that with the car being 950kg and me being 80kg giving a total of 1030kg, at 335bhp the power to weight would be 350bhp/ton, me sitting in the Nismo would bring it down to 330bhp/ton so still attainable - with the added benefit that even a small reduction in weight in the MR2 would make a larger difference in % terms vs the GTR.
It's going to be seriously rapid.
I agree that going on a diet is probably the best way to improve the power to weight ratio.
If your fat like me anyway.
Quote from: "1979scotte"It's going to be seriously rapid.
I agree that going on a diet is probably the best way to improve the power to weight ratio.
If your fat like me anyway.
Will also be looking to fit a traction control system in as well which should help, coupled with a 'boost by gear' either ECU or boost controller to maintain traction, it won't really be up at the higher power levels all the time, probably be running low boost most of the time at around 200bhp but with the engine overengineered for that power level.
Regards to driver weight, its why I also weighed myself with wallet/keys/phone etc before I went for that baseline run so I can work out the sort of weight the car was on the day - interested to know the power the car is currently making with the stock ECU though - guessing at the same power level at a brand new 1zz vs my lightly modded 1zz with 175k miles on it!
Cylinder head bolts are now loosened, took a very long breaker bar and I managed to snap an extension bar in the process they needed that much torque to remove, still need to remove the front cover but I am hoping to be able to get the head off this week to check to see what condition the internals are in.
Will then start measuring up the internal parts such as the crank and see what size bearings I need to order to get the right oil clearances, I can then measure up the crank itself to see if its in spec, if not I will get another one as they aren't too expensive.
Hopefully can then get the engine booked in to be honed out, need to check the flatness of the head though in case there is an issue with any warping.
I think I have finally pulled together a plan of action for my build, I am actually planning to run the engine NA once I get it back in the car on the stock ECU and fueling etc until its run in (as part such as the turbo are easy to fit with the engine in) but here are the parts I am planning on using, most of the engine parts will be provided by TCB who have some very reasonable pricing for the UK. Please also note that I will be upgrading the brakes, water cooling if needed and wheels and tyres along side these mods.
Engine
79.5mm Wiesco forged pistons @ 8.8:1 compression
Forged rods provided by TCB
Supertech springs and retainers
Stock valves (current thought)
Lightly ported head - removal of any casting marks and gasket match
Forced induction cam
Stock bottom end
ARP head studs
Head gasket TBD
Currently looking at bearing options
Cast turbo manifold with T3 flange
Turbo TBD
Charge cooler
Cooler spark plugs
Custom downpipe and exhaust system - single exit
Thermostatic oil cooler
Electronics
AEM EMS4/PFC/Link/standalone ECU TBD
AEM WBO2 guage
Boost controller - TBC
Subaru MAF (if MAF still needed)
3 BAR MAP (if needed)
Race battery in frunk
Fuel
Uprated injectors - perhaps the VXR injectors but still deciding
Uprated in tank pump
Aeromotive FPR
Convert to return fuel system
Meth injection TBD
Gearbox
Stock C64 gearbox but fully rebuilt and refreshed
Uprated JUBA/SSC 3rd and 4th Helical gears - rated to 295ft/lbs
Upgraded driveshafts (if needed)
Gearbox cooling - TBD
Further update, still stripping down the engine, currently:
Engine on engine stand
Front pulley off
Front cover off
Cams out
Head off
Cylinders 2 and 3 have some wear indicating possibly slightly oval bores, pistons rock slightly, however I can still see all of the hone marks all the way down the bore meaning its either low mileage or has been rebuilt - guessing low mileage as I am pretty sure this engine hasn't been apart before.
Plan for tonight is to pull out the pistons to see if they are 4 hole or not, I also have a set of T gauges to check the bores - I think they will be ok to simply bore out to 79.5mm for the forged pistons, if not I will look to sleeve the block and go for the 82mm pistons.
Will also need to check the crankshaft clearances as well to see what bearings I will need for the right clearance.
I think I might treat the engine to a new front crank pulley unless I can clean up the current one, really is in quite a sorry state!
Will look to simply wrap up the head for the time being, the bucket shims are still in the engine and have kept everything together - will wait until I have a bit more bench space before I start taking that apart, will also get myself a micrometer and measure what the actual shims I have (rather than using the numbers indicated on them as they aren't new).
Sump is off, pistons are now out - looks like the OEM pistons, all of them have gummed up oil control rings but other than that the rods and pistons are in good condition (although not reusing). The bearings all look ok, crank looks fine but will check the specs over the weekend to check to see if I need standard sized bearings or not.
Plan next is to remove the crank ready for the block to be bored and honed - need to check a few shops as to the cost and what else they need, figure they might need the pistons and rings to hone to the correct size for the right piston to bore clearance.
Everything looks pretty good and clean in there though, annoyingly it was still full of oil (was told that it the oil had been drained but there was a minor spill in the back of the car being transported - however it looks like the Exxon Valdez on the garage floor now!).
With regards to the pistons I will probably look to mod them with enlarged oil control ring holes and they might be up for sale in the future once they are all cleaned up and checked.
When I asked about a built engine was told they would want the pistons in hand before any machining was done.
Quote from: "1979scotte"When I asked about a built engine was told they would want the pistons in hand before any machining was done.
I am just in the process of speaking with the local machine shop, the have quoted £30 a bore, they will also check the current bores free of charge, my dilemma is that if the bores aren't in spec for a rebore to 79.5mm I would have to go to 82mm and get sleeves fitted.
I could either buy myself a bore gauge and check the spec of the bores myself or get the block checked by them - issue being is that if I buy a set of 79.5mm pistons and find that they can't be used then I would need to get some 82mm pistons and liners etc.
I kinda figured that they would need the pistons as they would need to hone to fit for piston to wall clearance - would need to run slightly higher clearance due to the forced induction application to avoid breaking things when it all expands.
I am taking my time over this though, block, crank, camshafts and head are all in plastic wrap to avoid any contamination, will probably look to get the block to them for checking soon so I can then order either 79.5mm pistons or 82mm pistons and sleeves.
Will also be getting some plastigauge for bearing clearances (need to get some bearings! And some micrometers to check the crank specs but the main bearings look pretty much new, I don't think anyone has been in the engine before looking at the state of some of the bolts on the outside but as I can still see the hone marks in the bores I recon this might be a fairly low mileage engine.
Liners are pretty cheap, so since you're buying pistons anyway, why not just go for 82mm now?
Quote from: "jonbill"Liners are pretty cheap, so since you're buying pistons anyway, why not just go for 82mm now?
The sleeves are around £300 plus the machining cost on top - I will check what the costs are for the sleeving job but wanted to keep the engine at close to stock bore, I might still have to sleeve the block if the bores aren't usable at 79.5mm.
Options in terms of costs:
Rebore to 79.5mm, forged 79.5mm pistons = £30 a bore + piston cost
On the other end, the costs spiral a bit if going to 82mm:
Machining work to fit sleeves + bore to 82mm, forged 82mm pistons = sleeve maching cost + £30 a bore (guessing) + piston cost + cost of Darton sleeves + cost of different head gasket
I will look into the costing of the sleeves and machining costs but would rather run with the OEM sleeves and bore as this will mean the sleeves are thicker and there is more of a gap between bores, the 82mm pistons are slightly cheaper however it doesn't offset the much higher cost of the overall setup.
Wouldn't bother to sleeve if at all possible.
As you say it's not exactly cheap.
Not sure what it gains you with a forged high boost engine.
NA is a different kettle of Ferret's
Quote from: "1979scotte"Wouldn't bother to sleeve if at all possible.
As you say it's not exactly cheap.
Not sure what it gains you with a forged high boost engine.
NA is a different kettle of Ferret's
This is my exact thought, for a high CR NA build the extra displacement would be good, but as I am forcing air and fuel into the engine the displacement size plays a smaller role - although having stronger cylinder walls would be good if running much higher boost.
How much cylinder-splitting boost are you planning on running? s:) :) s:) 30psi? Hehe.
m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... &start=150 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18104&start=150) m
I found this looking around. The guy is going with the small pistons too. Personally id run 12-15 psi daily and 20 psi for showing off on the drag strip s:) :) s:)
10 psi as an everyday kind of thing.
17 psi for showing off.
25 psi for bragging down the pub.
Quote from: "1979scotte"10 psi as an everyday kind of thing.
17 psi for showing off.
25 psi for bragging down the pub.
For 25 psi i think you would need some methanol to cool things down a bit. At least i would like to have it if im going for such boost.
Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.
10-11psi for daily.
12+ really is the realm of low comp.
20 is just silly.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.
10-11psi for daily.
12+ really is the realm of low comp.
20 is just silly.
I thought he was going forged low compression?
Is this not the case?
A 2zz on stock compression pistons can handle 13 psi if not more.
A 1zz stock will take 10 psi from a tiny t25 turbo.
Surely a fully forged low compression 1zz can take 20 psi.
Ah I've got threads crossed.
Yes indeed I would hope so
Quote from: "shnazzle"Ah I've got threads crossed.
Yes indeed I would hope so
You know VW how much do those 1.8t bam handle?
Quote from: "shnazzle"Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.
10-11psi for daily.
12+ really is the realm of low comp.
20 is just silly.
The engine will be running low compression 8.8:1 pistons and am also planning to run meth injection at higher boost (already have the kit in the garage).
Would look to run quite low boost daily - say 6psi which would be the sort of power level the car should have had from factory, looking at PRSpyder's build and his Youtube video for their progression it shows that running around 21psi would give a low 11 second 1/4 mile pass which would be awesome if I got to that.
Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?
The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3
But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever
Quote from: "shnazzle"Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?
The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3
But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever
I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "shnazzle"Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?
The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3
But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever
I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?
Apologies for going off topic.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "shnazzle"Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?
The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3
But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever
I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?
Apologies for going off topic.
No its ok, I was looking at the 1.8t as an option for a project car, the BAM engine had weak rods and sludging issues but at least its a webbed block, did look at the 2.0 TFSI engine and found that the power was limited by the direct injectors (without going for an 8 injector setup).
Plan is to overengineer this car and run it at lower power most of the time - will look to run high boost every now and then but not all the time.
Its also worth noting that I did weight up A LOT of options in terms of project cars, I was going to go with the 2.0 TFSI but the car that the engine is fitted in would weigh around 300-400kg heavier (due to 4wd) than the MR2 meaning that I would need a much higher state of tune on a heavier car than it would for the lighter MR2 - its why I was looking at comparisons for the very heavy (but powerful) Nismo GTR.
I am wanting to build this engine and build it properly so that I can lean on it and not worry about something letting go, quite tempted to run 82mm pistons and liners simply because they will be stronger than the stock bores - I think you can even run the liners but run 79mm pistons if you wanted which would cope with boost.
Just thinking about all of the aspects of the engine, head is upgraded, rods, pistons, head studs, bearings will all be upgraded to cope, clutch will be upgraded, box will have upgraded 3rd and 4th gears, I guess the next weak points might be the drive shafts but should hold ok.
If funds are available running liners with stock sized pistons could be a winner strength wise.
Quote from: "1979scotte"If funds are available running liners with stock sized pistons could be a winner strength wise.
This is quite a tempting option but need to check the costs to see if it's worth it, also run the risk of issues with the liner machining etc.
You can put rs4 injectors in the 2.0tfsi which takes you to about 600hp I think. Built block that is.
420 on stock with mainly breathing and exhaust mods and fueling.
Expensive block to build though due to its complexities.
A lot to be said for the BAM as they're cheap as chips.
Or... Stick to sleeving, low comp and bored
Quote from: "shnazzle"You can put rs4 injectors in the 2.0tfsi which takes you to about 600hp I think. Built block that is.
420 on stock with mainly breathing and exhaust mods and fueling.
Expensive block to build though due to its complexities.
A lot to be said for the BAM as they're cheap as chips.
Or... Stick to sleeving, low comp and bored
Yeah the 1.8t blocks are cheap, parts for the TFSi engine are also good however it's not Japanese.
The RS4 injectors have the wrong spray pattern, there are some upgraded injectors that that are better than those if you know the part number...but decided to not go down that route.
Just a quick note from a complete newbie engine builder, I was initially quite concerned about rebuilding my engine but the more I took it apart the simpler it seems to be, here are a few things I have found, you will notice that nothing is really difficult:
Chain tensioner came out with 2 bolts
There was a set of bolts holding on the cam caps which are easily accessible
Head is held on with a selection of head bolts - mine were quite tight but they came out ok
It took 2 bolts to remove each of the pistons
One big bolt holds on the crank pulley (needed a bit of force to remove though)
Few small bolts hold on the front cover
Few small bolts hold on the oil pump
A fair number of small bolts hold on the sump
3 bolts in total hold on the oil pick up
To remove the crank all you need to do is remove about 10 or so easy to get to (apart from the one under the oil filter cooler!) bolts and a the longer main bolts which are easy to get to.
Most of the bolts have been either 10mm or 12mm holding most of the parts onto the engine with just the head bolts, main bolts and pistons needing a slightly different socket.
I was amazed at how quickly the whole thing came apart - well apart from a few tighter head bolts, what I find amazing is that there were a few fairly average sized bolts holding the block together, the only thing you need to worry about when you put it back together would be checking clearances for the bearings it seems. I actually think the cylinder head is the most complicated part of the whole engine, I am guessing that there are more parts in the cylinder head than the rest of the engine combined!
I am actually looking forward to taking apart my stock engine for a minor rebuild when the time comes to swap that out s:) :) s:)
How did you undo the crank pulley? Did you make a tool to hold the pulley or was it an impact gun job?
Quote from: "shnazzle"How did you undo the crank pulley? Did you make a tool to hold the pulley or was it an impact gun job?
Engine was on the engine stand, simply put 4 flywheel bolts back in (the flywheel was off when I got the engine to help reduce weight getting it in and out of the car), I then locked the crank using a long screwdriver through the 4 bolts which then locked against the engine stand - I then just used a breaker bar on the front bolt to undo it. Didn't want to use an impact gun on it, need to sort an air powered gun at some point (Only have a 24v electric one).
Clever s:) :) s:)
Thanks
Quote from: "shnazzle"Clever s:) :) s:)
Thanks
Saying that it did help using a 1M 3/4" breaker bar!
I am currently in the process of talking with the local engine machining shop to see what the costs are for running the Darton sleeves and then either running the 79.5mm pistons or the 82mm pistons - thought being is whilst I am in there I might as well upgrade everything I can do to make the engine bulletproof. I am looking at even sleeving the block but then running close to stock sized pistons as the bores would be thicker and stronger vs running the engine bored out to 82mm - the bores being closer together coupled with the extra cost of the head gasket etc.
Just got off the phone with the local engine machine shop, here are the costs for each option (for piston and bore work minus other parts such as rods as they are the same for each option) - partly for my record and partly to help anyone else work out costs for them:
'Stock' bore:
79.5mm pistons - £590
Bore out the cylinder on stock sleeves - £30 a cylinder = £120
Head gasket is stock size so would come in the Toyota engine gasket kit
Cost: £710 - machine work costs 20% of the total cost
3mm overbore - 82mm:
82mm piston (using MWR pricing they are around 14% cheaper than the 79.5mm) - ~£510
Darton dry sleeves - around £320
Machine block and fit sleeves - £150 per cylinder = £600
Bore out sleeves to fit 82mm pistons - £30 a cylinder = £120
Aftermarket headgasket (due to overbore) - £100
Cost: £1,650 - machine work costs 43% of the total cost
Stock engine displacement - 1794cc
79.5mm engine displacement - 1816.8cc (+1.27% above stock)
82mm engine displacement - 1932.9cc (+7.74% above stock, 6.39% above 79.5mm)
There is a £940 difference between the 'stock' bore and the sleeved option, this means that it costs £147 per % increase in displacement.
I don't believe there are any 79mm forged piston options for this engine (they start at 79.5mm) - although have been told by TCB that there might be some in the pipework, would probably be happier if the cylinders are bored and honed fresh rather than simply replacing the pistons with forged - would need to check the piston to wall clearance.
MWR talk about needing to use a "torque plate" to do reboring on the 1zz to avoid future problems. I don't know what that is or if it is standard practice, but if not, is it worth checking if your engineering place would be doing that?
Quote from: "lamcote"MWR talk about needing to use a "torque plate" to do reboring on the 1zz to avoid future problems. I don't know what that is or if it is standard practice, but if not, is it worth checking if your engineering place would be doing that?
A torque plate is basically a large plate that bolts everything together to stop the bores moving when the block is bored and honed due to the open deck design.
Standard practice in big block v8 builds.
Also called a girdle.
Has anybody considered a stroker crank?
Surely a couple cc gain be gained there
Quote from: "shnazzle"Standard practice in big block v8 builds.
Also called a girdle.
Has anybody considered a stroker crank?
Surely a couple cc gain be gained there
There are no stroker cranks out there. The 1zz already has the largest stroke the block can take, the 2zz engines have to run a stroker crank to get to 2 litre (ish) whereas we need to bore the cylinders out.
MWR do a 93.5mm stroker for the 2zz so there perhaps is a bit to go at.
Quote from: "lamcote"MWR do a 93.5mm stroker for the 2zz so there perhaps is a bit to go at.
The stock stroke on a 2zz is 85mm (with 82mm bore), looks like that stroker crank goes to 93.5mm vs the stock stroke of 91.5mm on the 1zz so for the 2zz it goes from 1795.5cc to 1975.1cc so 2.2% more displacement than a 3mm overbore on a stock 1zz - the issue for me is that increasing the stroke on the high revving 2zz isn't ideal as its moving away from a square engine stroke ratio, yes the engine will pick up torque but the pistons speeds would increase.
Small update, I have kinda tucked the car away for the winter which means I can look to sort out the soft top removal etc when I have some space in the garage.
I have also pulled out the battery which seems to not be able to hold any charge - the battery itself weighs 12.5kg, looking at the Odyssey extreme 25 battery it seems to weigh 7kg so just a 5.5kg saving in weight.
I also have 2 spare gearboxes in the garage, a 5 speed and a 6 speed, both with LSDs, might be going down the 6 speed route and rebuild with JUBA gears, did look at the E153 box but although it should hold the power the weight and ratios aren't favorable not to mention the cost for the conversion kit along with the availability of the boxes.
I might also be looking to run the MR2Link G4+ ECU instead of the AEM or PFC due to additional mapping and safeguard benefits built onto the chip.
Next step for me is to get the block bored and honed (after checking the bores and then ordering the pistons).
I am also looking at the different forged rods for the engine, my options are:
Bridgeway rods supplied by TCB - used in quite a few EVO builds
Molnar rods - from the US so need to check costs etc but are known to be good
ZRP rods - I have heard of the brand before and they do have some high HP builds using them
Unlike the PFC the link is not a plug in.
You will likely need A and B loom which isn't cheap.
I still think ECUMASTER offers the best bang for buck.
The unit and looms are cheaper with more features.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Unlike the PFC the link is not a plug in.
You will likely need A and B loom which isn't cheap.
I still think ECUMASTER offers the best bang for buck.
The unit and looms are cheaper with more features.
There is the G4 storm wire in and there is also the G4+ plugin:
m http://dealers.linkecu.com/TST205Plus (http://dealers.linkecu.com/TST205Plus) m
Nope the plugin is not for the 1zz.
Previous generation celica and MR2. 3S engines.
Pretty sure I looked into this couple of years back.
There is F all plugin for the 1zz apart from the PFC.
m http://forums.linkecu.com/topic/5896-to ... -base-map/ (http://forums.linkecu.com/topic/5896-toyota-1zz-fe-base-map/) m
Second post confirms it.
No plug and play solutions except pfc for 1zz or 2zz. Believe me I'm trying to change this!!!! Motorsport electronics are going to make a patch loom in the new year but still haven't sorted the dash. Ecumaster have a 2zz for lotus and will build a plug and play for mr2 but haven't sorted the dash! Driving me nuts!
There's P&P harness adaptor kits available for the Emanage Blue & Ultimate, AEM FIC 6 and many others
l viewtopic.php?f=109&t=63282 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=63282) l
There will Also be one for the Adaptonic M1200 next year
They're all mega money.
400 plus Vat!
Thanks guys, yeah it seems that the 'MR2link V3' might be for the mk2 rev 3 model? Looks like the options are either the PFC or the AEM EMS4 as that comes with a plug and play harness etc.
Good to know that TCB can do the harnesses though so I guess the G4 Storm is also an option, I know that harnesses are very expensive due to the propitiatory connectors etc.
You can make a harness s;) ;) s;) start with a old 1zz ecu/harness, cut the pin block off the circuit board, map your splice's and solder away. Ive got a excel spread sheet which took me 7 hours to do which mapped my harness out for the Link.
Quote from: "1979scotte"They're all mega money.
400 plus Vat!
with these harnesses we make only a tiny amount of money on them, it's mainly just a supplying service
to offer more ECU options to the MR2ROC community,
they're actually not too expensive when you break it down though the link plugs for the ECU alone are £120 + VAT
then you've got the Loom and ECU extension harness which is expensive,
then all the wiring and work involved to make the harness to aircraft specification and know you're receiving a fully tested
high end produced component, that peace of mind is worth the extra money over a home crimped / soldered connection in my book really s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thank you
Paul Pridham
Company Director
TCB Performance Parts Limited
Comes down to economies of scale doesn't it?
I agree with Paul, this is something you want to have be pretty solid. But the only way that costs are going to go down is if all of a sudden the Link ecu market for 1zz shoots up.... Doubtful.. s:) :) s:)
I am currently working through options for the ECU, looks like the Link G4 Storm ECU (without the extra MAP sensor I would need) plug and play vs the AEM EMS4 plug and play setup is around £400 more expensive.
I do currently have the PFC which should be ok for mapping on boost although not ideal as its not mapped by everyone and its not as clever coupled with no knock protection etc.
I do want to go with either the AEM EMS4 or the G4 - I guess I could look on the used market for either of them and then buy the plug and play harness on its own.
Need to sort out which features I will be using the most, I am leaning towards the G4 Storm as Link ECUs are well known and are more likely to have support.
Have you looked at the g4 link monsoon?
Quote from: "mikek"Have you looked at the g4 link monsoon?
Looking more at the Storm rather than the Monsoon but might be a better value option and closer matched to the AEM EMS4 - will be looking to add other outputs such as meth injection as well so need to check the ECU isn't going to run out of inputs or outputs etc.
Having a think about the timeline for this build I think I will look to do the following:
1. Build up engine over spring 2018
2. Run the current stock engine over the summer 2018 and do a few 1/4 mile runs to see what the performance is with the same engine but lower weight
3. Fit the engine in Summer/Autumn 2018 but run the engine NA (Might be looking at slightly closer to stock compression ratio on the forged pistons)
4. Run the built engine NA for most of 2019 probably using either the stock ECU or the PFC and start to collect parts for the turbo conversion, swap out injectors and fuel system etc
5. Bolt on turbo in 2020 running the Link G4+ Storm ECU
Other things I want to sort on the car during 2018:
Coilovers from TCB - rear passenger shock is leaking slightly so want to change and refresh the current suspension
Link Xtreme ECU install and run MAFless (converting to MAP)
Refurb the wheels
Custom exhaust - smaller than the current TTE exhaust and to also fit lower to give additional clearance for the turbo pipework in the future
Remove seatbelt brackets from soft top frame etc
Mod the rear lights to include LED bulbs and perhaps black out some of the chrome parts
Race battery/move battery to the front
Front splitter
Tuft test to check airflow over stock hard top for aero work in the future
Will also be looking to do a few mods ready for the turbo install in 2020:
Uprated fuel pump
Return fuel system
1:1 RRFPR
VXR injectors - or indeed some IDX injectors
Why convert to MAP? I know it's kind of the done thing but a MAF (a bigger one) is so much more flexible than MAP.
Never saw the point of trying to calculate airflow when you could just measure it very accurately, and adjusted for temperature, using a MAF? Instead of MAP where you need to get the VE table spot on and install a separate IAT. And any changes to VE will shoot off your map.
Even if you use the stock maf, the Link will let you scale it (and the associated spark/fuel maps)
I guess if the name of the game is to chase as much power as possible and the map will be tweaked accordingly for every little change, MAP
Quote from: "shnazzle"Why convert to MAP? I know it's kind of the done thing but a MAF (a bigger one) is so much more flexible than MAP.
Never saw the point of trying to calculate airflow when you could just measure it very accurately, and adjusted for temperature, using a MAF? Instead of MAP where you need to get the VE table spot on and install a separate IAT. And any changes to VE will shoot off your map.
Even if you use the stock maf, the Link will let you scale it (and the associated spark/fuel maps)
I guess if the name of the game is to chase as much power as possible and the map will be tweaked accordingly for every little change, MAP
Will look to run a MAF initially and will do for a fair while I think, would only need to move to a MAP sensor when a Subaru MAF becomes a restriction - running a MAP sensor only would be an option only chosen if it became an issue.
I have a feeling I should be ok on the stock MAF for a couple of years, as you said its directly measuring airflow rather than working out the correct VE values etc.
2018 will be mainly focused on chassis mods and getting things sorted 100% for supporting mods before upping the power.
I have just re-read a message from TCB with regards to the forged pistons, it would seem that I am able to order the pistons in either 79mm or 79.5mm - all other aftermarket pistons seem to only come in 79.5mm, 82mm or 82.5mm meaning that I might be able to run with a 'drop in' forged piston at 79mm - as you would do on a standard rebuild for the oil burning issues.
Need to get the spare block checked over in terms of bore size, might have to take it to a machine shop although I am tempted to get myself a bore gauge to check it over myself, I can still see the hone marks on the cylinder walls so I think the engine is low mileage.
Looking at the Toyota workshop manual, for the stock bores to be reused they need to be 79.000 mm - 79.013mm (3.1102" - 3.1107") - Although not sure if this is correct as this would mean that the bore must have less than a fraction of a mm - unsure if this should be 79.000mm to 79.130mm as the next stage mentions that if the bore has less than 0.2mm of wear you can remove the carbon build up at the top of the cylinder.
You can get ductile iron liners from Westwood Cylinder Liners (in sunny Droitwich).
I got mine off Ebay for about £150, IIRC, (but that was a few years ago) and had them fitted by Scholar Engines (sunny Stowmarket) for about £300.
Quote from: "AllanE"You can get ductile iron liners from Westwood Cylinder Liners (in sunny Droitwich).
I got mine off Ebay for about £150, IIRC, (but that was a few years ago) and had them fitted by Scholar Engines (sunny Stowmarket) for about £300.
Would rather go with Darton sleeves, have been quoted £120 per bore to fit the liners, have decided to simply bore the engine out to 79.5mm and run on stock sleeves - I can then use the project budget on something else, won't be running huge power as I won't be fitting an E153 box so just limited to the uprated JUBA gears in the stock box.
I have now taken the head apart, it would seem that the head is in good condition, not a huge amount of build up on the valves (although not too worried about those as I am swapping out for an upgraded valvetrain).
I have also invested in a set of micrometers to then get the crank specs to see what bearings I need to order, I have a feeling they will all be standard size as I can't see any wear on the crank etc.
I did however noticed that there was a code on the bottom of the cylinder head which started with '4zz', I know that the 1zz, 3zz and 4zz engines have the same head - as far as I know this engine hasn't been opened however if it is indeed a 4zz head it has been rebuilt at some point. I am not too concerned if it has been rebuilt as it means that the valve guides and seals are going to be newer etc and they all look to be in very good condition.
Next step is to get the crank checked for size so I can then order the main and big end bearings - its the only thing that is currently holding up the build at the moment, after I have the sizes to put in the order I will then have the pistons to take to the machine shop to then be able to bore the block out to 79.5mm and start assembling up the engine.
Plan for parts is currently:
79.5mm pistons - custom from TCB
Forged rods - custom from TCB
Crower stage 2 forced induction camshaft
High flow black nitride coated valves
Upgraded valve springs and retainers
ARP head studs
ARP main studs
ARP flywheel bolts
Lightened flywheel
Fuel injectors - still to be decided
Clutch - still to be decided
New OEM oil pump
New sump (drilled for turbo drain but blanked)
I have now fitted an induction kit behind the battery, it consists of:
45 degree 70mm silicone pipe
Cut up top of OEM airbox for the MAF tube and bellmouth
Generic induction kit filter
Its fitted behind the battery and the intake temps aren't bad due to being shielded by the battery as well as airflow from the passenger side vent.
Initial impressions are very good, car feels like it has more midrange torque vs the stock box and does feel smoother than the stock box - sounds really good as well.
Following this with interest, great thread!
If you wouldn't mind me making a suggestion......pics as you go would be great s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "MilesH"Following this with interest, great thread!
If you wouldn't mind me making a suggestion......pics as you go would be great s:) :) s:)
Will try and get something up for you, its very very basic, key thing is the MAF tube though so worth finding a spare airbox to then cut the tube out etc.
In engine building news, I need to recheck my crank, I think I had an issue with the adjustment of one my micrometers - I set it using the 50mm standard but have now adjusted it using the 25mm and 50mm standards and it seems to check out. Will be getting some plastigauge in various sizes anyway so no real harm in checking the current bearing clearances - will still look to fit performance bearings though.
I have just ordered a few parts from TCB which are very competitively priced, parts ordered so far are:
ARP Main studs (block is going to stay together)
ARP Head studs (head is going to stay on)
ARP flywheel bolts (flywheel will stay on)
Custom TCB Link G4+ plug and play wiring loom for my Link Xtreme - will be adding in a MAP sensor, high speed IAT sensor and a doughnut knock sensor at some point when I get onto boosting the engine
TCB replacement lower UJ - I think mine is a bit past it so wanted to refresh this before the summer for safety
Needed to get the main studs as I need to check the specs on the crank to see which bearings I need (or if I need to grind the crank), I have a set of plastigauge on its way so once I check the spec on the mains and crank pins again I can order up bearings and check the oil clearances.
Nice.
Does the TCB wiring loom for the Link ECU keep the standard ECU wired in (kind of "piggyback" style) to run the dashboard, immobiliser etc?
Quote from: "lamcote"Nice.
Does the TCB wiring loom for the Link ECU keep the standard ECU wired in (kind of "piggyback" style) to run the dashboard, immobiliser etc?
As far as I know its a fully standalone ECU (although I have not seen the harness), with the same inputs and outputs as the stock harness, as far as I know the alarm and immobiliser are separate control modules, the mileage etc is held within the speedo.
I will report back when it arrives - I do have the Link Pin kit A and B so I could probably wire it in myself but felt that it would be more reliable to get the plug and play harness with all the connectors that have been tested etc.
My understanding is that you need to keep the standard ECU wired in for certain functions such as the coolant gauge.
The Monkeywrench standalone ECU runs as a standalone ECU for all engine functions but retains the standard ECU wired in just for these functions because the standalone ECU doesn't include them.
It's all a bit complicated but the solution seems to be retaining the standard ECU but bypassing all the engine control elements which is presumably done by an appropriate design for the loom?
Quote from: "lamcote"My understanding is that you need to keep the standard ECU wired in for certain functions such as the coolant gauge.
The Monkeywrench standalone ECU runs as a standalone ECU for all engine functions but retains the standard ECU wired in just for these functions because the standalone ECU doesn't include them.
It's all a bit complicated but the solution seems to be retaining the standard ECU but bypassing all the engine control elements which is presumably done by an appropriate design for the loom?
I will find out when it arrives - its one of the reasons why I opted to buy a plug an play loom so that I didn't have the headache of trying to work out where everything plugged in!
Probably won't be installing the ECU for a while though, just enough to power it up and unlock it, set the various sensors up and turn the key.
Plan moving forward will be:
2018
Enjoy the car on the stock engine running the stock ECU or maybe the PFC with a tuned NA map installed (although checking parameters before I rely on the tuned map that is on there)
Fit steering UJ
Swap out exhaust for more compact custom exhaust
Fit coilovers and bushings
Build up the forged engine
MOT expires on 31/07/2018, car will be MOTed with the stock engine, after this point I will look to swap over engines if its ready
2019
Fit the forged engine into the car if its not already in
Run the car NA on the stock ECU/tuned PFC
Start collecting parts for the turbo upgrade
2020
Fit turbo parts
Fit Link ECU and get car mapped
Previous versions of the link still required stock ECU to run parts of the dash.
I don't think this has changed.
Getting a loom for an ECU you aren't planning on fitting for a couple of years is some serious forward planning.
I planned to do this to mine and then went V6.
Plans change.
Still interested to see what you do gearbox wise.
Good luck.
Presumably if the loom is designed correctly it would allow retention of the standard ECU and include appropriate connections to connect into both the Link and the standard ECU as required?
Is that the solution or is there more to it than this?
Quote from: "1979scotte"Previous versions of the link still required stock ECU to run parts of the dash.
I don't think this has changed.
Getting a loom for an ECU you aren't planning on fitting for a couple of years is some serious forward planning.
I planned to do this to mine and then went V6.
Plans change.
Still interested to see what you do gearbox wise.
Good luck.
This is probably the case, will find out when I get the PnP harness and shall report back, guessing that the PFC would emulate the stock ECU as a standalone (much like the PnP Link ECUs for other Toyotas).
I am forward planning quite a bit, it was a good price and has all of the features I needed so I just went with it. The reason I am not going to fit it right away (apart from unlocking it and checking out the software) is that with the engine running NA, remapping the ECU will boost the power from 140 to say 170 or so. Whereas remapping with the turbo setup will go from 140 to 400 - the dyno time will be the same so its more cost effective to run on what I have for the time being as I don't really want to be remapping more than I need to.
I will be running JUBA 3rd and 4th gears in the stock 6 speed box - I have found someone who is running a stock C60 box with a turbo setup running 300ft/lbs, apparently 4th fails every now and again but its on a stock box. I will look to limit the torque when I do remap to ensure that there aren't any sudden increases in torque through the rev range.
I must say I did also look at some of the Rotrex superchargers, it would seem that the C30-94 should support the airflow, will look into this option as well but am still favouring a turbo.
Block will be a sleeved 82mm setup, still working on piston options for the UK, might have to import but will work through the numbers - have found a machine shop that does 1zz supply and fit Darton sleeves, either dry sleeves or the Darton M.I.D. sleeves which would be the more desirable option. Also looking at block guards as well as pinning the sleeves but I think if I go Darton M.I.D. it should be fine.
Currently researching:
King vs ACL bearings
Tool steel wrist pins
Cometic head gasket thickness
Fuel pump options
Intake manifold mods needed
I have had a slight change in plan with regards to the engine strengthening, instead of going for sleeves I am now going to look to run CSS (Cylinder support system) which is a custom CNC machine piece that is installed right at the top of the OEM sleeves. This then makes the engine a semi open design and allows for the sleeves to be held securely so that they don't move (and then crack) under higher loads, its quite common on Honda engines it would seem.
The CSS isn't the same as a block guard as a block guard is simply press fit into the engine and isn't specifically machined to the engine its being used on - more of a generic part.
This means I will be looking run the CSS, stock sleeves and a slight overbore to 79.5mm - I have been informed that the CSS is rated to around 500whp which should be plenty, its also worth noting that I have seen a few videos and builds where Honda engines have run 1000bhp on stock sleeves but CSS.
I was dead set on getting the engine sleeved but I also realise that even with the engine with dry liners, the engine is still an open deck design with no real support at the top of the cylinders where it needs the support the most.
I am still researching into it but it seems likely I am going to go with the CSS with 79.5mm forged pistons - considering I was originally planning on simply boring out to 79.5mm and keeping the rest stock I am happy that there is another options out there and great that there is a solution to give extra support to the top of the cylinders. I was even looking at pinning the sleeves by tapping the block to insert pins through to then support the walls of the sleeves.
Quick update on the build so far:
Harness is currently being made - its a piggyback style so the stock ECU will look after some parts of the running of the car, Link Xtreme will look after the mapping, will be using a newer style MAP sensor, fast response temp sensor and will be upgrading to a Bosch doughnut knock sensor.
With regards to the block, this is going to be sent off to get the CSS machined in, will be running stock sleeves and 79.5mm bore, 10:1 compression ratio - I believe I will be the first person in the world to have a CSS 1zz and I believe this could be a better option than getting the block sleeved (unless going for an large overbore). Even with sleeves fitted the engine is still open deck so there is still no support at the top of the (now much thinner) sleeve. I will be getting a quote for how much it would cost for the block to be sleeved as a comparison but won't be sleeving the block.
I also have a T3 turbo manifold arriving soon so I can look to test fit this onto the engine to check clearances and turbo supporting etc - as mentioned I won't be bolting a turbo on right away but can start to collect parts etc.
With regards to engine bearings, there are currently no race bearings for the big end bearings but the main bearings for the 1zz and 2zz are the same, the plan will be:
Run King race bearings on the mains - MB5375XP (alternative is ACL race - 5M1857H/HX)
Run ACL or King standard bearings on the big end but run with a dry film coating to upgrade the standard bearing to a more race friendly bearing - King CR4263SI /ACL 4B1851
10:1 compression ratio is going to give good off boost performance and aid turbo spool but will limit you up top.
MWR only recommend them for low boost applications.
As an example the 3s gte has 8.8:, the 2jz gte is 8.5:1 and even more recent engines like Subaru's ej25 have a compression ratio of 8.0:1 - 9.5:1 on their turbo applications.
Just my thoughts.
At 10:1 with a turbo that big you're going to want to consider using the temperature safety features of the Link to reduce timing when it gets stupid hot.
Just one extra sensor (possibly two if doing IAT and EGT) and a bit of config. Small and price to pay for saving the block
I am still deciding between the 8.8:1 or 10:1 pistons - the engine shop has mentioned that they have quite a few high power cars running 500bhp running 10:1 pistons without issue when running on Vpower etc. Will be running upgraded IAT sensor as well as upgraded knock sensors etc and will definitely be running knock control on the Link.
Might look to run the 8.8:1 to be safe, still deciding on that though.
I now have a turbo manifold, its a OBX T3 tubular manifold, actually very impressed with the fit and finish of it, flanges are very thick and there has been work to blend in the pipework (not just welded together and left).
It also came with a t25/t3 adapter as well which included decent studs and copper nuts (will be getting some more for the rest of the manifold at some point.
It will mean that I have the possibility of running a T25 turbo first then upgrade to a T3 turbo at a later date, I believe the wastegate flange is 38mm so not massive but should mean I can run whatever turbo I want.
Might look to mock a few things up this weekend to check clearances, I believe its a bottom mount but will find out soon!
Sounds good.
Will initially be running the engine NA on the stock ECU for probably most of next year to break the engine in and enjoy the car more knowing that the engine is sorted so I can put my attention towards other aspects such as suspension as well as collecting additional turbo parts etc.
Just thinking about mapping when I do go turbo, will have the option to run without a MAF - will initially look to run the stock MAF/upgraded Subaru MAF first and add in the MAP sensor as well. My issue is that if the car is mapped using the smaller turbo without a MAF and I then bolt on the larger turbo, the MAP readings would be the same but the airflow would be higher - eg more air flowing at lower boost then before. Means that I think it might be best to run the car with a MAF and base it on airflow so that I can swap to a different turbo in the future. As the mapping would be airflow based it would mean that if I swap out the turbo it will just look at the fueling on a different part of the ECU map - will talk to a tuner about the options though.
Might be able to find a much larger MAF to avoid any restriction in the intake as the ECU should be able to be configured for whatever MAF is plugged in, would just need to find the correct voltage vs airflow etc.
Currently in the process at looking into the main and conrod bearings though, will look to get the block sent away for CSS soon though.
Supra MAF?
That must support a large flow or as you say the Subaru MAF.
I was lead to believe that MAF was actually better than map but that MAP was far easier for aftermarket implementation ie changing the size of your induction pipe doesn't screw with a MAP but does a MAF. MAP doesn't cause any air flow restrictions etc.
It's about finding a MAF that supports your power goal in the correct size pipe.
Evo X uses both.
With my DET3 piggyback I will probably keep the MAF even though it has an in built MAP sensor and ability to delete the MAF.
We shall see.
I just had the same selling speech in favour of MAP.
But advised only in combination with after-turbo intake air temp compensation.
The main reason being safety and not having to faff about having to map in the flow to load mapping.
Any leak or pipe disconnecting on the intake on MAF and you're stranded. With MAP, as it goes off manifold pressure, it'll just keep trucking on.
But get the mapping of the MAF right and it's a lot more accurate across the range.
If I were to be building a turbo I'd go for MAP
Without going into detail, I suspect your theory about how to implement the MAP/MAF options is a bit too simplistic. It's probably a good idea to have that discussion with a tuner at an early stage.
I have now test fitted the turbo and manifold to the engine temporarily to see how things look, will be upgrading the head to manifold studs, using copper fasteners and also bracing the turbo probably using the stock heat shield brackets etc.
Will be sending off the block for machine work probably next week - think mine will be the first ever CSS 1ZZ block in the world :)
Must feel like you've made progress when you see it all test-bolted up
Quote from: shnazzle on February 2, 2018, 13:25
Must feel like you've made progress when you see it all test-bolted up
Indeed, was good to see it together, although I won't be turboing the engine initially I was happy with the setup. Looking forward to getting the block sent off and back again, will order the bearings etc in the next few weeks and after that I can start to put it all together.
Need to get a piston ring file but other than that it should go together fairly quickly - ARP studs are on the way as well.
The block is being send off today to have the CSS fitted, I have asked the machine shop to take some photos of the progress, will be great to see how it comes together.
Parts update, arrival of parts :D
ARP main stud kit
ARP head stud kit
ARP flywheel bolts
Link G4+ plug and play ECU harness
New TCB steering UJ
Currently in the process of cleaning up the stock head ready for gasket matching, seems like it is a 4zz head as I can see that there are valve seat inserts - will only be doing light work to the ports and will look to polish up the combustion chamber.
Need to order bearings at some point but its all coming together, I have plenty of time however as I won't be looking to install this engine until near the end of the year, still need to get the spare gearbox rebuilt with JUBA gears first.
Quick update on the car, its all running well now, found that I had an intermittent air leak due to the evap solenoid!
I have also plugged in my Link Xtreme to the car, just to get the ECU unlocked, won't be needing to run it for a while as the stock ECU will suffice for a while, I do also have the PFC and Dastek which I might look to try out more as well but I don't feel there is much point tuning NA.
I have some seafoam in the oil at the moment which is really working it seems as the oil is much darker even with around 60 miles on it - its meant to be kept in the oil for around 125 miles or so as its not an oil flush as per say.
Next on the list is probably to sort out removing the soft top from the car, I have modded OEM brackets which will replace the ones in the car as the soft top and seatbelt brackets are attached to each other.
I also have an oil cooler which I might look to install soon, no rush on that though, plan to drive the car around a bit more over the next few weeks.
I wouldn't rest until that Link was talking to the car and starting it.
Don't know how your could just plug it in and leave it at that :)
Quote from: shnazzle on February 17, 2018, 18:49
I wouldn't rest until that Link was talking to the car and starting it.
Don't know how your could just plug it in and leave it at that :)
I will have another go today regarding the link, there aren't any base maps for the engine but have been informed to use a monsoon base map and tweak it from there. I have a feeling that the stock ECU or the PFC might have a better tune in it when running NA, the Link ECU is mainly for the turbo setup due to the knock protection etc.
The project engine block has been damaged by the courier on route to the machine shop - will have to see if its repairable or if I need to source another engine for the work to be done.
I was planning to personally take the block to the machine shop but went for the courier arranged by the machine shop as this would mean I wouldn't need to take holiday from work etc to take the block over to them. So far the only thing that has gone wrong so far has been the only thing that hasn't been in my control!
The damage is on the sump side so might be weldable - the rest of the block seems fine though so fingers crossed!
Let me know if its scrap bud, got a 65k one sat in the garage. im starting to shift the stuff out of there.
Quote from: tomaky on February 21, 2018, 12:21
Let me know if its scrap bud, got a 65k one sat in the garage. im starting to shift the stuff out of there.
Thanks, I am located near Bedford - typically everyone who seems to have a spare engine seems to be in another part of the country!
itll post if its packed well :)
Quote from: tomaky on February 21, 2018, 12:56
itll post if its packed well :)
No longer trust couriers with anything engine related anymore, I have sourced another block and will be collecting it tonight - nothing is even local it seems!
The machine shop might be able to use the damaged block for the machine work as only the lower part of the block has damage - might be able to simply swap out the lower part of the block from the spare engine.
Unsure of the condition of the short block I am collecting tonight though, but it should be fine as its being machined +0.5mm over so will take out any issues if the whole block is needed - doubt it will be in a good condition as the block already sent though.
After a fairly horrific trip after work I have now got another spare engine block along with some modded seat rails so I can fit aftermarket seats at some point as well.
Plan is to strip this current engine this week - its just a short block so shouldn't take long! - and get it to the machine shop on Friday, will be hand delivering this one. The bores on this spare engine look to be in fairly ok condition - eg I can still see the hone marks and nothing looks to be polished etc. Its been sat for a while so will need to loosen off the pistons but will soak them over the next few days.
Hopefully that is the last block I need to buy for the project!
Started to strip the engine down, took the sump off which was a nice silver colour with lumps of bearing in it. I have broken the engine down further and I can see 1 of the con rod bearings has been utter destroyed and also wiped out the crank. I am not too worried though as I just need the block - as long as the bearings took all of the damage the block will be fine, was hoping to be able to have a spare crank.
Oddly the oil control rings are perfect but I can see that the bores are slightly polished (but I can still see hone marks) so the bores are still good.
The spare block is now at the machine shop - took it there personally and had a chat with the owner and asked a fair number of questions in terms of other builds and his personal experience over the years he has been tuning cars etc.
Just using the Borg Matchbot to look at various turbos they offer and to give me an idea of the lb/min the project engine will need at certain RPMs. Plugging in the engine displacement (1816.8cc with the 0.5mm overbore), ground level at around 15c and a top RPM limit of 7,500, 21psi, its showing 44.1 lb/min air requirement up at 7500, dropping this down to 7,250 rpm its at 42.6 lb/min. Its predicting around 425 bhp at the upper RPM with max torque being around 316 ft/lbs.
Both of these seem to make sense - it looks like there is a 20 ft/lb increase if I went to the larger 82mm bore with around 25bhp more at the same RPM - basically happy that I didn't go for the 82mm as it would save the gearbox! Although saying that if I up the boost to around 28psi the power level is at around 500bhp but at 350 ft/lbs torque - corrected lb/min jumps to 52 lb/min. Looks like I might be looking at a Borg airwerks S257 as even at 28psi boost its still within a fairly good efficiency island - not sure if I can go to an EFR turbo as its twice the cost!
The plan is still to run this engine NA for a year or so, some Supertech valve seals have arrived as well which are slightly slimmer to allow for double valve springs if needed, still deciding on if I want to run the 4zz head or look to source another 1zz head - it would seem that the head was running 32mm valves so should be fine to use.
EFR or GTX for me mate.
With your setup why go for anything second rate.
Quote from: 1979scotte on March 10, 2018, 17:56
EFR or GTX for me mate.
With your setup why go for anything second rate.
You make a good point, still looking into various turbo, won't be fitting anything until probably next year. Looks like some of the gtx28 turbos with a large wheel might be in the frame or a smaller gtx30 sized turbo like the GTX3067R. I won't be running 21psi all the time so need to find a turbo happy to run on lower boost but is still large enough to be efficient at higher boosts from time to time.
See I always liked the Td05 for that. TD04 might be better for a 1.8 but I do love the way a subaru pulls
Quote from: shnazzle on March 11, 2018, 19:06
See I always liked the Td05 for that. TD04 might be better for a 1.8 but I do love the way a subaru pulls
I have a T3 manifold (with a t25 adaptor if needed) so I would need to source/get custom made a TD flanged manifold but I do agree with the TD turbos, also looked at some of the K04 turbos as those are fitted to the 1.8t/2.0TFSi VAG engines so are about the same size.
Quote from: m1tch on March 12, 2018, 07:10
Quote from: shnazzle on March 11, 2018, 19:06
See I always liked the Td05 for that. TD04 might be better for a 1.8 but I do love the way a subaru pulls
I have a T3 manifold (with a t25 adaptor if needed) so I would need to source/get custom made a TD flanged manifold but I do agree with the TD turbos, also looked at some of the K04 turbos as those are fitted to the 1.8t/2.0TFSi VAG engines so are about the same size.
K04 is a great turbo but the k03s would suit the 2 better I think. The k03 af 240hp on the VAG block was always found to be more flexible and responsive than the K04 at 240. And that's on a 2.0.
K04 is easier to get ahold of though.
Quote from: shnazzle on March 12, 2018, 19:07
Quote from: m1tch on March 12, 2018, 07:10
Quote from: shnazzle on March 11, 2018, 19:06
See I always liked the Td05 for that. TD04 might be better for a 1.8 but I do love the way a subaru pulls
I have a T3 manifold (with a t25 adaptor if needed) so I would need to source/get custom made a TD flanged manifold but I do agree with the TD turbos, also looked at some of the K04 turbos as those are fitted to the 1.8t/2.0TFSi VAG engines so are about the same size.
K04 is a great turbo but the k03s would suit the 2 better I think. The k03 af 240hp on the VAG block was always found to be more flexible and responsive than the K04 at 240. And that's on a 2.0.
K04 is easier to get ahold of though.
Will look at turbos again in a bit - I do already have a T3 manifold though so would need to work out a way to adapt to a different flange.
The block is away at the moment so I am starting to concentrate on the cylinder head a bit more, I might need to get another head though, need to recheck that this 4zz head is ok for the standard 32mm 1zz valves - I believe that it is though but has a standard valve seat rather than the laser clad ones on the 1zz heads.
Need to look into springs as I might want to run double springs or see if there are beehive springs available - the Supertech valve stem seals are able to run either- would be interesting to see if the 1zz and 2zz heads can take the same springs.
As mentioned before I will be running the car NA for a bit, not ideal on the lower 8.8:1 compression ratio, there will be around a 5% drop in power like for like, however I will be running around 1.2% larger capacity and a higher rev limit so it might make up for it.
Quote from: m1tch on March 12, 2018, 07:10
Quote from: shnazzle on March 11, 2018, 19:06
See I always liked the Td05 for that. TD04 might be better for a 1.8 but I do love the way a subaru pulls
I have a T3 manifold (with a t25 adaptor if needed) so I would need to source/get custom made a TD flanged manifold but I do agree with the TD turbos, also looked at some of the K04 turbos as those are fitted to the 1.8t/2.0TFSi VAG engines so are about the same size.
Nissan silvia has T3 turbo but u could look for TD05 -16G or 20G turbo with 7cm hot part. It would spool good on 1.8 and will make some boost, also im not sure but some of the Evo turbos have titanium wheel which will give u better spool but you would need another manifold coz of twin scroll design. If i had to choose id go GTX2863-67(these can be found new for 1100-1300 dollars not sure if the hot part is in the price, the cheapest i found are on turbokits.com) or if some OEM id go Evo one with titanium wheel its a bit hard to find but worth it IMO.
Quick update on the project so far, things are progressing:
2nd block is now with the machine shop for CSS work - UPS dropped the first block on the way to the machine shop and shattered a corner so basically junked it
Power goal for this engine is around 400bhp - boost for full power run will be set to 21-28psi
Engine build will hopefully be the following:
CSS block bored to 79.5mm - stock sleeves, CSS is rated to 700whp on this engine so more than needed
4zzA3 head with light porting to gasket match
Supertech Nitride valves
Supertech valve stem seals
Supertech dual valve springs/retainers
Crower stage 2 forced induction cam
ARP head studs
ARP main studs
ARP flywheel bolts
Molnar rods
Traum custom pistons - 79.5mm, 9.5:1 compression - will probably bump up slightly when the block and head as skimmed/decked
King racing main bearings - still deciding vs ACL (same as 2zz so a few options)
King standard conrod bearing - still deciding vs ACL (no race bearing options for big end bearings on the market)
OEM oil pump with hopefully upgraded oil pump gears
Fidanza lightweight flywheel
Baffled sump - either Morose or eliseparts
Clutch - TBD
Gearbox - standard 6 speed with JUBA 3rd and 4th gears
The engine will be run NA once installed for a year or so for break in and enjoyment of the car and also for me to collect all of the turbo parts, have already started collecting parts but will take a while to get everything together.
Other aspects of the car currently in progress:
Coilover install
LED bulbs for the rear lights
Reinstall of the Link Xtreme ECU to get it up and running, have configured the ECU on a basemap but have yet to plug it in and fire it up
I have 2 new rear calipers on the shelf ready for install
Check driver side rear caliper as I think its seized slightly
15 Ohm 25w resistors on the O2 heater cables to stop engine check light
Replacement steering UJ
Discs to be changed all round
Pads to be changed - still deciding on pads
Change over of cone filter - current cone filter fitted behind battery is a bit past it, looking to change to an enclosed filter
Removal of softtop
Race seat for track day/drag strip, looking to run Celica seats for a daily drive
Softtop has now been removed, the softtop on its own (there will be some extra weight from some of the brackets and bolts) came to exactly 20kg.
Just trying to scroll through and find out how much the hardtop weighed, I have a feeling that it was slightly more than the soft top plus the extra bracket weight etc.
Edit - hardtop came in at 23.1kg so removal of the soft top for the hardtop increases the weight slightly - I guess I could look to swap out the latches which would save a bit of weight as well.
Also worth noting that I am also now running modded seatbelt mounts (as the softtop is part of the bracket), so I have added a bit of weight to run those to retain the stock seatbelts.
Currently in the process of working out the engine bearings, will probably aim to run ACL standard bi metal bearings - they are more forgiving and should be fine, might even run Toyota OEM.
Currently looking at wheels and tyres for the car, have been looking at what the most common wider tyre is on the market, looks to be a 255/40/17 which is 6% out which I can correct with the Link ECU. Should mount onto a 17x9 rim, currently looking at options for the front wheels - will be staggered setup but looks like I am going to have to go with 17s all round rather than 15s.
Just looking at the 'will it fit' site, here are the specs on the rear:
Stock 16x7, 215/45/16 with an ET45 offset vs 17x9, 255/40/17 with an ET25 offset (example is some Rota Grid wheels) - the new wheels are:
5.4mm closer to the strut tower
45.4mm poke vs stock
Might look to run a 17x7.5 on the front - tyre sizes of 215/40/17 - running 17x7.5 on the front with an ET of 35 will run 9.1mm closer to the suspension with a 29.1mm poke from the stock setup - might need to look into the front as this might require a spacer if I can't get a lower ET wheel.
Planning to roll the arches/fit extensions anyway - will look at options as I know the stock wheels don't come to the edge of the arches as they are - might run a 2" arch extension.
Also in the process of upgrading the rear lights with LEDs for longevity, also still adjusting the handbrake, both cables move fine, think I just need to drive the car a bit more to get the calipers working.
I have now purchased a lighter exhaust, the TTE does sound really good, however is apparently weighs 13.7kg - not too bad although the stock exhaust is apparently around 12.5kg, anyway the replacement exhaust (without tip/additional rear muffler) comes to 6.5kg.
Plan is to run the lighter exhaust without any additional rear muffler - just a single box for racing, I am then planning to fit a short stubby bike can onto the exhaust for road use.
You want to sell the tte?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Smcknighty on April 25, 2018, 21:29
You want to sell the tte?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Will be at some point - when mentioning on the Facebook group there were many takers for it!
Current 'to do' list for the car:
Exhaust
Order gasket for cat to exhaust connector
Mod lightweight exhaust to length taking into account additional 90 degree elbow
Fit lightweight exhaust and check sound levels with and without additional bike exhaust
Brakes
Change rear brake pads and discs - probably change front as well
Bodywork
Continue any spot rust treatment under the car - paint up any components that need extra protection
Suspension
Order Whiteline front and rear upgraded ARBs
Fit coilovers (when they arrive)
Tuning
Reinstall wideband O2 sensor and gauge
Check tune of PFC maps I currently have - some custom, some MWR maps
Refit Link Xtreme and troubleshoot no start issue (awaiting basemap from tuner)
I have refitted the PFC to the car, wideband O2 sensor is currently in one of the OEM locations, will look to get another bung added soon.
I have managed to find an AFR table and manually copied it into Copilot - will be doing some more logs with the MWR basemap on the PFC, should be fairly simple to then match up the fueling by cell, have already looked a the logs so far so I can see exactly where in the map the ECU is looking for data, overlaying this with the AFR table I have seems to make sense. I have also been running the wideband and the stock ECU together, generally the stock ECU runs 14.7-16 on idle and cruise, runs to 14 ish on very light throttle, richest it has been at full throttle high load has been down to around 12.3. The AFR table I have just copied over into Copilot seems to support this with the very top end of the cells being read have a target of 12 with low load at the low 14s, mid RPM, mid load are mid to high 13s which seems to match off against the stock ECU. Will get the fueling sorted first, knock is always being logged and the MWR basemap is quite rich with very very conservative ignition and VVTi.
Just a quick update with regards to the weight removal from the car, its worth noting that only running a hardtop and removing the softtop doesn't really give much weight saving as the hardtop is heavier than the softtop and you also need the brackets for the hardtop. The swap for me made sense as the hardtop is quieter, warmer and won't leak like the softtop (mine was original), coupled with a larger rear window plus the added security of the car.
Below are a few additional items I have removed/will remove when converting from 'road trim' to 'race trim':
Evap canister - 776g, replaced with a dirtbike breather tank valve at negligible weight.
Evap canister bracket - 228g
Door trims (that go along the sills) - 482 (driver side) so 964g for both
Trim to the side of the pedals - 206g (driver side) so 412 for both sides, although will probably leave these in so I don't kick the connectors next to the pedal
Assorted nuts and bolts from removal of soft top - 191
Lock down bracket in the centre of the crossbar - 235g
Metal strip that wraps around the back of the car clamping softtop into place - 432g
OEM alarm siren - 555g
Airbox with no filter - currently running just a filter, OEM MAF pipe and connector behind battery now - 1125g, replacement filter is probably about 500g so 625g saving
Heat shield on rear subframe that encases OEM airbox - 761g
Additional aerial wiring - 33g
Additional weight saving for race trim - 4,800g
61.87kg previous weight saving in 'race' trim - 66.67kg weight saving so far - might be a slight variance now though as some parts are estimated but biggest interesting thing I have found so far is the hardtop is heavier than the soft top.
Please also note that even with all of the weight removed in 'race' trim, the car still has full carpet, door cards, OEM HVAC, standard heavy battery etc - goal for weight saving overall is to remove the same weight as the driver - I currently weigh 80kg, however plan to reduce my weight a bit anyway, I have a feeling that a lighter battery and the lighter exhaust and cat should tip me over the goal. Might even aim for a round 100kg - 10% weight loss from the car but just having a 'free' driver is a pretty good goal for a road car I think.
I am doing the same thing and the list below is what I have removed so far and a rough weight for each part removed / replaced with a lightweight unit .
WEIGHT REDUCTION
SPEAR WHEEL 12KG
SPAR WHEEL BIN AND LID 5KG
TOOL KIT 3KG
REAR STORAGE BINS 6KG
FLOOR MATS 2KG
WIND DEFLECTOR 1KG
EXHAUST HEAT SHIELD 1KG
EXHAUST SPLASH BOTTOM SHIELD 1KG
FOG LIGHTS 1KG
OLD EXHAUST MANIFOLD WITH PRE CATS 3KG
MANIFOLD HEAT SHIELD 1KG
OLD STOCK CAT AND DOWN PIPE 4KG
OLD EXHAUST SYSTEM 4KG
REAR STORAGE SOUND COVER 2KG
AREIL 2KG
SOUND TAR 3KG
ECU PLATE 1KG
STUFFING FOOT WELL 1KG
MANIFOLD BRACKET 3KG
STRUT BRACE PLATES F / R 1KG
REAR BUMPER BARS 1KG
DRIVER AND PASSENGER AIR BAG 7KG
LIGHTWEIGHT FLYWHEEL 5KG
SPORTS CAT 4KG
RACE BATTERY 8KG
TOTAL WEIGHT REMOVED 82KG
Quote from: m1tch on May 13, 2018, 16:58
Just a quick update with regards to the weight removal from the car, its worth noting that only running a hardtop and removing the softtop doesn't really give much weight saving as the hardtop is heavier than the softtop and you also need the brackets for the hardtop. The swap for me made sense as the hardtop is quieter, warmer and won't leak like the softtop (mine was original), coupled with a larger rear window plus the added security of the car.
Below are a few additional items I have removed/will remove when converting from 'road trim' to 'race trim':
Evap canister - 776g, replaced with a dirtbike breather tank valve at negligible weight.
Evap canister bracket - 228g
Door trims (that go along the sills) - 482 (driver side) so 964g for both
Trim to the side of the pedals - 206g (driver side) so 412 for both sides, although will probably leave these in so I don't kick the connectors next to the pedal
Assorted nuts and bolts from removal of soft top - 191
Lock down bracket in the centre of the crossbar - 235g
Metal strip that wraps around the back of the car clamping softtop into place - 432g
OEM alarm siren - 555g
Airbox with no filter - currently running just a filter, OEM MAF pipe and connector behind battery now - 1125g, replacement filter is probably about 500g so 625g saving
Heat shield on rear subframe that encases OEM airbox - 761g
Additional aerial wiring - 33g
Additional weight saving for race trim - 4,800g
61.87kg previous weight saving in 'race' trim - 66.67kg weight saving so far - might be a slight variance now though as some parts are estimated but biggest interesting thing I have found so far is the hardtop is heavier than the soft top.
Please also note that even with all of the weight removed in 'race' trim, the car still has full carpet, door cards, OEM HVAC, standard heavy battery etc - goal for weight saving overall is to remove the same weight as the driver - I currently weigh 80kg, however plan to reduce my weight a bit anyway, I have a feeling that a lighter battery and the lighter exhaust and cat should tip me over the goal. Might even aim for a round 100kg - 10% weight loss from the car but just having a 'free' driver is a pretty good goal for a road car I think.
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
It's still a piggyback no experience of the AEM but they all have their drawbacks.
For high boost like m1tch is going for standalone is a must.
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 30, 2018, 09:22
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
It's still a piggyback no experience of the AEM but they all have their drawbacks.
For high boost like m1tch is going for standalone is a must.
I totally agree on that but the way the group buy on the Ecumaster black is going i started looking at other options and aem f/ic look quite nice on paper. Plus the ecumaster is going to be in parallel to the OEM Ecu so its close as a setup in my opinion. On the plus side aem + boost controller 2nd hand will go way cheaper.
If the Ecumaster supplier gets our cars running well and makes a good deal on non UK members who does not require mapping and fitting id be up for it.
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:32
Quote from: 1979scotte on May 30, 2018, 09:22
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
It's still a piggyback no experience of the AEM but they all have their drawbacks.
For high boost like m1tch is going for standalone is a must.
I totally agree on that but the way the group buy on the Ecumaster black is going i started looking at other options and aem f/ic look quite nice on paper. Plus the ecumaster is going to be in parallel to the OEM Ecu so its close as a setup in my opinion. On the plus side aem + boost controller 2nd hand will go way cheaper.
If the Ecumaster supplier gets our cars running well and makes a good deal on non UK members who does not require mapping and fitting id be up for it.
For 4 cylinder applications the ECU master det3 is pretty good.
The spec on the AEM is good but I would save for a standalone.
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
They would require the block, think my 1zz is the first they have done - each block is different and each CSS is custom fit to the engine, blocks are cheap though - worth sourcing a used block to rebuild anyway as you will get spares of parts you can then pick and choose from. Example being is that the crank out of the first engine was good (but UPS dropped the block), the block from the 2nd engine is good but not the crank due to a spun big end bearing. You also get extra shims for the cylinder head when you need to adjust clearances for the cams.
I will speak with the machine shop as to how high they are rating the stock block with CSS, its done quite a bit on Honda engines, looks like the K20 with CSS is rated to 800whp (with O rings it can handle over 800whp) on stock sleeves, they are currently listing the 1zz/2zz as rated to 700whp. The CSS works out better value than sleeving the block,coupled with the fact that if you do sleeve the block the engine is still open deck and the top of the sleeves still aren't supported. The gearbox is the limiting factor in my build, still looking at options but the JUBA gearset is rated to 295 ft/lbs but should be able to handle more - engine is only 0.5mm overbore so torque will be down slightly vs a fully bored out 82mm build. I can also adjust the VVTi to keep the torque in check coupled with some ignition adjustments after shifting to avoid shock loads on the box.
I have a Link Xtreme ECU which I am currently working on configuring to run on my car, will be needing to swap to a MAP sensor which is fine as I would need to anyway for the turbo, my Link Xtreme is actually wired in as a piggyback, but only for aspects of the stock ECU that are hard to replicate - everything else is standalone. Will allow me to run traction control, boost control, launch control, antilag/2 step as well as the option to have cruise control if I wanted it.
Its also worth noting that my custom pistons are 9.5:1, probably closer to 9.8:1 once the head is skimmed, this might sound quite high for a boosted application but with modern ECUs with knock protection it isn't an issue anymore. Back in the 90s you would need to run a lower compression engine to prevent knock as the ECUs weren't very powerful. Talking with the machine shop (who work on a lot of Honda builds) most of their turbo builds are stock compression, and considering the current Ford Ecoboost engines are 10:1 compression I am fine with running slightly higher compression.
The almost stock compression ratio on my build will mean that the turbo will spool up faster, its more driveable off boost and the engine is more efficient when under boost - basically the engine will make more power vs a lower compression engine. I was planning to go with the 8.8:1 Wiesco pistons but the compression ratio is a bit too low, and also quite expensive to import over here so went custom, didn't go with additional gas ports as I won't be running much over 400bhp.
Just looking at fueling, will probably aim for something like a set of ID850s with a Walbro 255 pump, return line and a 1:1 RR FPR.
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 12:53
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
They would require the block, think my 1zz is the first they have done - each block is different and each CSS is custom fit to the engine, blocks are cheap though - worth sourcing a used block to rebuild anyway as you will get spares of parts you can then pick and choose from. Example being is that the crank out of the first engine was good (but UPS dropped the block), the block from the 2nd engine is good but not the crank due to a spun big end bearing. You also get extra shims for the cylinder head when you need to adjust clearances for the cams.
I will speak with the machine shop as to how high they are rating the stock block with CSS, its done quite a bit on Honda engines, looks like the K20 with CSS is rated to 800whp (with O rings it can handle over 800whp) on stock sleeves, they are currently listing the 1zz/2zz as rated to 700whp. The CSS works out better value than sleeving the block,coupled with the fact that if you do sleeve the block the engine is still open deck and the top of the sleeves still aren't supported. The gearbox is the limiting factor in my build, still looking at options but the JUBA gearset is rated to 295 ft/lbs but should be able to handle more - engine is only 0.5mm overbore so torque will be down slightly vs a fully bored out 82mm build. I can also adjust the VVTi to keep the torque in check coupled with some ignition adjustments after shifting to avoid shock loads on the box.
I have a Link Xtreme ECU which I am currently working on configuring to run on my car, will be needing to swap to a MAP sensor which is fine as I would need to anyway for the turbo, my Link Xtreme is actually wired in as a piggyback, but only for aspects of the stock ECU that are hard to replicate - everything else is standalone. Will allow me to run traction control, boost control, launch control, antilag/2 step as well as the option to have cruise control if I wanted it.
Its also worth noting that my custom pistons are 9.5:1, probably closer to 9.8:1 once the head is skimmed, this might sound quite high for a boosted application but with modern ECUs with knock protection it isn't an issue anymore. Back in the 90s you would need to run a lower compression engine to prevent knock as the ECUs weren't very powerful. Talking with the machine shop (who work on a lot of Honda builds) most of their turbo builds are stock compression, and considering the current Ford Ecoboost engines are 10:1 compression I am fine with running slightly higher compression.
The almost stock compression ratio on my build will mean that the turbo will spool up faster, its more driveable off boost and the engine is more efficient when under boost - basically the engine will make more power vs a lower compression engine. I was planning to go with the 8.8:1 Wiesco pistons but the compression ratio is a bit too low, and also quite expensive to import over here so went custom, didn't go with additional gas ports as I won't be running much over 400bhp.
Just looking at fueling, will probably aim for something like a set of ID850s with a Walbro 255 pump, return line and a 1:1 RR FPR.
"my Link Xtreme is actually wired in as a piggyback" - thats why i was looking at the cheaper AEM f/ic coz it has MAP integrated and id only need boost controller. Also i had a look on some reviews and ppl rate them rly good and easy to work with.
On the CSS i have seen some honda ones to sell separately thats why im asking. Im located in Bulgaria and i cannot afford to buy a block from UK that i have never seen.
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 13:11
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 12:53
Quote from: Nvy on May 30, 2018, 09:19
Quote from: m1tch on May 30, 2018, 07:36
Just had an update from the machine shop, the CSS is almost done, will then be boring out 0.5mm, custom pistons and Molnar rods have also arrived, should hopefully get everything back soon and I can then start building a clean room for engine building.
Looking to also do another set of drag runs next month to see what the weight reduction has done with the drag time.
Can they supply one if we order from them w/o sending them the block? Im also turboing next year and want to collect some prices and parts :)
Also did you have a look on AEM f/ic 6 seems quite okay if its paired with a boost controller?
They would require the block, think my 1zz is the first they have done - each block is different and each CSS is custom fit to the engine, blocks are cheap though - worth sourcing a used block to rebuild anyway as you will get spares of parts you can then pick and choose from. Example being is that the crank out of the first engine was good (but UPS dropped the block), the block from the 2nd engine is good but not the crank due to a spun big end bearing. You also get extra shims for the cylinder head when you need to adjust clearances for the cams.
I will speak with the machine shop as to how high they are rating the stock block with CSS, its done quite a bit on Honda engines, looks like the K20 with CSS is rated to 800whp (with O rings it can handle over 800whp) on stock sleeves, they are currently listing the 1zz/2zz as rated to 700whp. The CSS works out better value than sleeving the block,coupled with the fact that if you do sleeve the block the engine is still open deck and the top of the sleeves still aren't supported. The gearbox is the limiting factor in my build, still looking at options but the JUBA gearset is rated to 295 ft/lbs but should be able to handle more - engine is only 0.5mm overbore so torque will be down slightly vs a fully bored out 82mm build. I can also adjust the VVTi to keep the torque in check coupled with some ignition adjustments after shifting to avoid shock loads on the box.
I have a Link Xtreme ECU which I am currently working on configuring to run on my car, will be needing to swap to a MAP sensor which is fine as I would need to anyway for the turbo, my Link Xtreme is actually wired in as a piggyback, but only for aspects of the stock ECU that are hard to replicate - everything else is standalone. Will allow me to run traction control, boost control, launch control, antilag/2 step as well as the option to have cruise control if I wanted it.
Its also worth noting that my custom pistons are 9.5:1, probably closer to 9.8:1 once the head is skimmed, this might sound quite high for a boosted application but with modern ECUs with knock protection it isn't an issue anymore. Back in the 90s you would need to run a lower compression engine to prevent knock as the ECUs weren't very powerful. Talking with the machine shop (who work on a lot of Honda builds) most of their turbo builds are stock compression, and considering the current Ford Ecoboost engines are 10:1 compression I am fine with running slightly higher compression.
The almost stock compression ratio on my build will mean that the turbo will spool up faster, its more driveable off boost and the engine is more efficient when under boost - basically the engine will make more power vs a lower compression engine. I was planning to go with the 8.8:1 Wiesco pistons but the compression ratio is a bit too low, and also quite expensive to import over here so went custom, didn't go with additional gas ports as I won't be running much over 400bhp.
Just looking at fueling, will probably aim for something like a set of ID850s with a Walbro 255 pump, return line and a 1:1 RR FPR.
"my Link Xtreme is actually wired in as a piggyback" - thats why i was looking at the cheaper AEM f/ic coz it has MAP integrated and id only need boost controller. Also i had a look on some reviews and ppl rate them rly good and easy to work with.
On the CSS i have seen some honda ones to sell separately thats why im asking. Im located in Bulgaria and i cannot afford to buy a block from UK that i have never seen.
The Link has knock protection as well as a huge number of other features, something like the AEM EMS would just adjust fueling and ignition but not have other engine protection features.
With regards to the CSS, as its quite common for Honda builds they would usually have stock whereas its very very uncommon to have CSS on a 1zz or 2zz, mine is probably the first in the UK.
I have just ordered some front and rear Whiteline ARBs to replace the current worn out standard ones, will look to swap them out once my coilovers arrive.
Tiny update, have decided to call my project 'Project 11' as one of the goals is to run an 11 second 1/4 mile time - and everything is turned up to 11 :D
Having recently spent a few hours at Santa Pod and having seen what kind of machines struggled to run in the 11s... All the best.
Would be WELL impressive
I find it hard to do 11s in mine. But that's down to the grip from the Toyos...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: shnazzle on June 4, 2018, 21:56
Having recently spent a few hours at Santa Pod and having seen what kind of machines struggled to run in the 11s... All the best.
Would be WELL impressive
Saw on the MR2 Spyder Facebook group that someone was running an 11 with around 350whp or so on a built 1zz running full interior etc, should be able to attain it, will be running boost by gear and traction control.
I guess we will see, won't be running that sort of power day to day so currently looking into turbos that are ok to flow enough for 400bhp (need around 41 lb/min) for 21psi, but still ok to run lower boost and spool lower down which is why I am looking at BB turbos - GTX or EFR.
Should be running the car at Santapod on the 23rd, not been able to swap over the exhaust as of yet but already have a pretty good weight saving vs stock as well as a different induction system.
I will see if I am ok to run the PFC as well, not 100% happy with the tune but might be ok to run it and see what happens.
I've just blanked my emanage last night and there was a rather noticeable decrease in "oomph".
I've had the emanage on for years now so I got used to it.
Biggest noticeable change is that the extra bit of fueling and advance from the piggy makes for a much more lively throttle. Even if it doesn't add much total horsepower (and possibly lose some on the top end), I think it'll add some benefit on the Pod
Quote from: shnazzle on June 16, 2018, 09:08
I've just blanked my emanage last night and there was a rather noticeable decrease in "oomph".
I've had the emanage on for years now so I got used to it.
Biggest noticeable change is that the extra bit of fueling and advance from the piggy makes for a much more lively throttle. Even if it doesn't add much total horsepower (and possibly lose some on the top end), I think it'll add some benefit on the Pod
I am going to check through a few maps I have for the PFC, I agree though, a tweak in the VVTI, ignition and fueling does make quite a bit of difference mid range to take advantage of the increase in airflow though the engine.
I am going to check my fuel trims later from the stock ECU, seems to be running rich on the over run and do get a few pops in the exhaust (although might indicate a leaking exhaust join somewhere).
Think I might reinstall my wideband O2 sensor and gauge just to check the mixture on the PFC, currently running Shell V power to give me a bit more of a safety margin in terms of knock if the tune isn't 100%. I have a feeling that the O2 feedback setting might be messing with the tune a bit, hopefully get everything sorted and tested before this coming weekend.
I have just got back from Santapod and have the results of the experiment around weight saving and extra power via the PFC - note that the car is on 176k miles.
Here is my initial baseline run - only mods for this was the decat manifold and drop in filter, was running 100% stock weight, stock tyre pressures:
2.2833 second 60 foot
15.8627 second 1/4 mile
86.86mph terminal
Best run on the stock ECU with around 60kg weight saving (will work out the exact amount later) although was still running 2/3 of a tank, stock tyre pressures:
2.1302 second 60 foot (best 60 foot was a 2.0917)
15.1987 second 1/4 mile
88.39mph terminal
I then plugged in my partly tuned PFC - VVTi tweaks, ignition advance, fueling 4k rpm+ was between 12.8 and 13.3 AFR, I have a very very rich midband which I need to tune but each run it only went through these cells once. The timing is still fairly conservative, knock levels are low for the whole map.
Best run:
2.0745 second 60 foot
14.9645 second 1/4 mile
91.41mph terminal
The PFC is so much nicer to drive as, due to the timing tweaks, throttle response and pick up is a huge amount better, swapping back to the stock ECU made the car feel very lacking until further up the rev range.
As mentioned I still need to sort out a very rich couple of cells which are between I think 2.2k and 3.6k rpm (basically the mid to high load cruise range), need to get some additional data but just need to pull some fuel out of those cells.
What is interesting is that the 60 foot seems to be around the same at the moment (need more practice), seems that the additional 3mph top end shows that there is extra power - very interesting to find that some weight reduction had dropped the time 0.7 seconds. From here on in with the stock engine I won't be able to make many more gains, but that's fine, the PFC tuning has been interesting and I am getting a lot out of it now that I know what I am doing lol.
As a comparison, a stock EP3 Honda civic type R runs a 15.03 with lightly modded ones running mid to high 14s - plus the K20 has about 20% more power.
I am now happy that the car is now a 14 second car (just) - will work on making it more consistently a 14 second car - most of the other drag runs today with the PFC had the car running a 15.0 something, I had a 15.0056, 15.0028 and a 15.0473 lol.
Next mods for the car will be:
Fitting lightweight exhaust
Lighter race seat
Very interesting. Very good to see your methodical approach to gathering all the relevant data so we can see what the real changes are.
Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2018, 16:53
...
The PFC is so much nicer to drive as, due to the timing tweaks, throttle response and pick up is a huge amount better, swapping back to the stock ECU made the car feel very lacking until further up the rev range.
....
I experienced the same clearing my emanage. Exact same thoughts.
Glad to hear it's not just me.
Quote from: lamcote on June 24, 2018, 09:43
Very interesting. Very good to see your methodical approach to gathering all the relevant data so we can see what the real changes are.
That's the plan, will be doing everything in stages and will make a note of anything I change, now that I have made the bulk of changes in terms of weight reduction and initial remap and seen the difference I can now start fine tuning things.
This project car will be primarily a road car with track and drag upgrades - basically it will never be fully stripped out or be running drag only modifications, I will however continue with getting 1/4 mile times as although this is one of the goals of the project it also helps give a benchmark when doing mods. I am aware that the MR2 isn't meant to be a straight line car, however running 1/4 mile runs I can see how much things such as the 60 foot changes, the overall time as well as the terminal speed top end.
Next things on the list (apart from a MOT) will include more road tuning to get additional AFR samples mainly on cruise and light throttle - luckily the more I am running in those cells the more samples I will get so I can just drive the car around normally and those cells will be better tuned. I did a few adjustments at Santapod via Copilot, however I didn't get a huge number of samples - its good to know however that on average the AFRs between 4k and redline at WOT were between 12.5 and around 13.3 so it seems that those cells are pretty good.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 24, 2018, 17:29
I experienced the same clearing my emanage. Exact same thoughts.
Glad to hear it's not just me.
I think its due to the stock ECU being quite conservative, even just a small tweak to the timing gives much more immediacy on the throttle and makes the car more responsive - even if it might not give a huge power boost up top. I have no clue what my overall power figure is but all I know is that its better to drive, AFRs are getting there are the knock levels are low (thanks to Copilot auto ignition).
Quote from: lamcote on June 24, 2018, 09:43
Very interesting. Very good to see your methodical approach to gathering all the relevant data so we can see what the real changes are.
Agreed.
Love the attention to detail in this thread - it is already a great reference for anyone else seeking to boost their power to weight ratio.
I saw how much effort it took cars at the Pod to get to 13 seconds; massive turbo'd cars revving the nuts off.
So... Getting into 14s on a stock 2 is pretty darn impressive. Shows the importance of power/weight.
Quote from: K T M Rider on June 25, 2018, 13:06
Quote from: lamcote on June 24, 2018, 09:43
Very interesting. Very good to see your methodical approach to gathering all the relevant data so we can see what the real changes are.
Agreed.
Love the attention to detail in this thread - it is already a great reference for anyone else seeking to boost their power to weight ratio.
That's the plan, hopefully I will help out others who are interested to see what makes sense, there are already quite a few 'easy wins' with regards to weight saving on the car such as the rear bins or the ECU shield etc.
Just looking up production car 1/4 mile times, a 2014 Audi TT cabriolet 2.0 TFSi seems to run the same 1/4 mile time at 14.96 @ 91.5mph - BHP per ton on that car is listed at 150.6bhp.
I still need to work out the exact weight reduction between the benchmark runs but I think my stock FL car would have been at 1,006kg from the factory, taken out around 65kg of weight from unbolting things plus running around 5kg less fuel (as a guess as I was running 2/3 tank on these runs) and adding in the driver weight of 78kg the 1/4 mile calculator seems to predict a power output of around 157 bhp.
I won't be getting the current engine dynoed or RR tuned, not worth it as I will be dropping in the new engine at some point, will look to run that engine in NA form first before I bolt the turbo on. Worth noting that the engine I am building will be able to rev higher and is slightly larger in capacity (0.5mm overbore) - current engine is on 176k miles and was using a bit of oil during the day owing to the higher RPMs.
Here are the tests I am planning:
Test 1 - Stock - complete
Test 2 - Initial weight reduction - complete
Test 3 - Initial weight reduction and slight power increase - complete
Test 4 - Additional weight reduction and tuning on current PFC map
Test 5 - Adjustments to tyre pressures and aero
Test 6 - Swap to Link Xtreme using MAP sensor and launch control
Test 7 - New engine running NA
Test 8 - New engine running low boost
Test 9 - New engine running mid boost
Test 10 - new engine running high boost
Quote from: shnazzle on June 25, 2018, 13:22
I saw how much effort it took cars at the Pod to get to 13 seconds; massive turbo'd cars revving the nuts off.
So... Getting into 14s on a stock 2 is pretty darn impressive. Shows the importance of power/weight.
I had 3 other runs at 15.00xx so it was very close to having other 14 second runs, I am yet to tune some of the midrange which should help with initial acceleration - the car only goes through the sub 4k range once, doesn't really drop into this range again when shifting at max rpms. Its worth also mentioning that I am at the very top of 3rd gear @ 7k rpm at the line with the stock 6 speed box.
I have still got a fair bit of weight to take out the car, the lightweight exhaust is yet to go in (which might free up a bit top end), lighter seat (currently using the stock driver seat) a well as a lighter weight battery - need to move this to the frunk for extra space or run it secured in car to reduce the length of battery cable needed.
There is also the question of the volume of fuel to run, I overestimated the amount of fuel I needed to get over to Santapod meaning I was running heavier than I would have liked over the weekend - was aiming to arrive with half a tank left, ended up arriving with around 2/3rd. The car takes 48 litres full - might be able to run with around 10kg less fuel next time.
The engine that is currently being rebuilt will have a fully worked over valve train, I believe the stage 2 cams are rated to 8.5k RPM but will probably limit the RPMs to 7.5k owing to the piston speed on the long stroke 1zz - this would give me an extra 500rpms for each gear shift which should help me keep in the lower, harder accelerating gears for longer.
Block, pistons and rods are ready to be picked up from the machine shop, will take some photos of the parts soon so everyone can follow along with the build, still planning to run the car NA for a bit for it to break in, coupled with collecting parts for the turbo build.
Just had the car MOTed - it failed on a few bits:
EML light on (failing main cat sensor)
Lambda emissions out of spec (CO % and HC PPM are low though) - too lean in closed loop it would seem
Handbrake efficency
I knew the handbrake might be an issue so I have full discs, pads and calipers which should sort them out (cables move fine).
Lambda issue on emissions is a new one for me, last year it had no issues, I have resorted back to the stock ECU as the PFC isn't very good in closed loop.
Running the stock ECU I have found that the lambda is perfect and holding 1 using my wideband sensor in the manifold but seems to be reading too lean at the tail pipe - I have found a small exhaust leak in a joint between the main box and one of my TTE tips so I have a feeling that the mixture is correct coming out the engine but is being leaned out just before the MOT testers probe in the exhaust.
The TTE clamp is very rusty - has done 177k miles at this point, I can see that its been a bit bodged in the past so I have replacement gaskets and clamps for them, one side seems to be fine, the other needs replacing.
I have also ordered replacements for all 3 O2 sensors - all of the heaters had failed (but bypassed with the resistor so no check engine light for that) however they do take a bit of time to warm up and I can see that one of them is fairly lazy.
Hopefully this will fix all the issues on the car - MOT runs out at the end of the month, retest is next Wednesday so will give me a chance to sort a few bits out.
Things like the handbrake was expected, wasn't expecting to have an issue with the emissions - I think it might be that exhaust leak though but will find out.
Also worth noting that my PFC was only just out of range in terms of lambda even though this was a closed loop test and the PFC wasn't set to run closed loop!
MOT has now been passed for another year - 177k miles and no advisories! The Lambda reading was slightly on the lean side of 1 but within limits, the original cat (with no precats) was well within CO and HC limits which is great.
I have now ordered a MAP sensor and air intake temp sensor to get my Link Xtreme ECU connected up, I am still tuning the PFC and it might be interesting to try back to back comparisons for the PFC and the Link Xtreme.
The main thing I am looking forward to with the Link Xtreme ECU is the fact that it can take a Wideband O2 reading which can then use that for the closed loop fueling, as well as 'quicktune' looking at the target AFR table vs the actual AFR which should speed up getting the car up and running.
Next things on the list are:
Tuning:
Fit a MAP sensor
Fit/wire in an air temp sensor
Wire in wideband O2 to Link ECU
Get the car to fire up on the Link Xtreme and sort out initial basemap
Parts to fit/buy/research
Replace the TTE exhaust with the lightweight exhaust
Replace OEM driver seat with race seat - looking at Sparco Sprint
Lightweight battery
Coilover fitment
Whiteline front and rear ARBs
Whiteline camber bolts
Wheel alignment
Upgraded radiator (perhaps done when the engine is swapped)
Lightweight road wheels - still deciding setup in terms of tyre and wheel size
The CSS block is also ready for collection which has been bored and honed for the custom forged pistons, along with the Molnar rods. Need to buy a few additional parts before I can start putting the engine together, will look to do this in the autumn/winter months with a view to fitting the engine early next year. The engine will run NA initially using the base tune on the Link Xtreme, once the engine is broken in and any issues I will then start looking into other parts for the turbo build.
I have just done some working out with regards to the weight saving over stock in 'race trim' to see what the difference is in time with weight removed, I think I am missing one or 2 items though - one being an under tray which I think is a few of kg - however this will offset the additional 3.1kg of running a hard top vs the softtop so would cancel that out.
The total weight reduction so far is at 67.957kg, I think I might have been running slightly less fuel on the second set of drag runs but it will never be perfectly matched - difference in stock runs pre and post came to 0.664 seconds - just under 0.01 second improvement per 1kg removed.
Basically removing around 10kg will give you a 0.1 second improvement in the 1/4 mile time (to a point) but is a rough guide, I still have a few items to lighten up including:
Lightweight battery
Lighter seat
Lighter exhaust (still to fit)
Coilovers (will probably be lighter than stock)
Lighter wheels
This is slightly offset by the increase in weight from things like upgraded ARBs, braces and roll hoop (future development) but will make a note of any weight added or removed either way.
I think a fairly low hanging fruit is the fuel that I run - running 10 litres less fuel would give me an extra 0.1 second improvement with no loss of drivability etc so might have dropped the car to a 14.86 (with additional power from the PFC) or a 15 second run with the stock ECU. Worth also noting that I plan to run the Link Xtreme ECU soon which will convert the engine to a MAP sensor, coupled with features such as launch control and the ability to easily tune the fueling via the wideband vs the AFR target so will probably bump the power up a bit from the partly tuned PFC map.
I think my overall weight reduction for the car will come to around 100kg so on a stock ECU it would probably run a 14.8, and with the extra power from the ECU should drop me to a mid 14 when running NA - I think this is probably as far as you could go without fully stripping the car out.
I am trying to find a public weighbridge to be able to get an idea on the weight of the car as it stands, however the stock FL car apparently weighs around 1,006kg - car would now weigh 938kg without the driver - weight goal will be to weigh the same as a stock FL car with the driver and turbo fitted.
Working this back, if the car weighed 1,006kg I would need to be running 339bhp (343bhp per ton) which should be manageable on a fairly low boost setting (looking at the Borg turbo matcher) 12psi @ 8k rpm, would be running a low 11 second pass on high boost 21psi setting it would seem.
Have you researched on:
Lighter seat - id like to replace my seats before i hit the track.
Lighter exhaust (still to fit) - what exhaust are u going to use? Anything titanium or just something short w/o added weight?
Quote from: Nvy on July 17, 2018, 14:12
Have you researched on:
Lighter seat - id like to replace my seats before i hit the track.
Lighter exhaust (still to fit) - what exhaust are u going to use? Anything titanium or just something short w/o added weight?
I am currently looking at a Sparco sprint, but still deciding on what I want to do as I want to still retain the stock seatbelt for road use (don't have a hoop as of yet for harnesses).
The lighter exhaust I have is basically a small race silencer attached to the OEM fitting - will post up a photo of it when I can, think it weighs around 6.5kg (TTE apparently weighs 13.7kg) - plan to add on a motorbike exhaust can onto the end of it for road use if its too loud etc. Swapping out the exhaust will give me a 7.2kg saving off the back of the car.
Are you running FL or PFL seats? There's a big weight difference (FL being heavier).
Then there are the lights, PFL rear lights are lighter - and I'm assuming the same for front lights.
There is a guy selling a BUNCH of nice goodies on Spyder chat - but he's based in Greece and part of the load are some really nice blue race seats...
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 17, 2018, 15:10
Are you running FL or PFL seats? There's a big weight difference (FL being heavier).
Then there are the lights, PFL rear lights are lighter - and I'm assuming the same for front lights.
There is a guy selling a BUNCH of nice goodies on Spyder chat - but he's based in Greece and part of the load are some really nice blue race seats...
Racing seats should be tried first because if you cant fit then its of no use for you.
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 17, 2018, 15:10
Are you running FL or PFL seats? There's a big weight difference (FL being heavier).
Then there are the lights, PFL rear lights are lighter - and I'm assuming the same for front lights.
There is a guy selling a BUNCH of nice goodies on Spyder chat - but he's based in Greece and part of the load are some really nice blue race seats...
I currently have FL seats but might look to fit something like the Lotus seats - will only be changing the driver seat over as the passenger seat isn't fitted when I unbolt certain items to 'race trim'.
Quote from: Nvy on July 17, 2018, 15:31
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 17, 2018, 15:10
Are you running FL or PFL seats? There's a big weight difference (FL being heavier).
Then there are the lights, PFL rear lights are lighter - and I'm assuming the same for front lights.
There is a guy selling a BUNCH of nice goodies on Spyder chat - but he's based in Greece and part of the load are some really nice blue race seats...
Racing seats should be tried first because if you cant fit then its of no use for you.
This is why I haven't bought any seats as of yet, need to make sure it fits correctly - passenger seat weighs 13.9kg with the Sparco seat weighing around 8.7kg - its a 5kg saving so not a huge priority compared to other mods - I know that the Kirkey race seats are around 6kg so could unbolt both stock seats and fit a very lightweight driver seat for when I do go racing.
Meisters are definitely lighter than OEM, I know we weighed them like for like when I fitted them last year, not massively but when you're chasing gains it'll help.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 17, 2018, 17:35
Meisters are definitely lighter than OEM, I know we weighed them like for like when I fitted them last year, not massively but when you're chasing gains it'll help.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I am going with some Tein superstreets with EDFC, need to check the spring rates but should be easy to swap out if needed.
I think the main thing is that after a few other items as listed already, without going for carbon fibre parts or stripping out the HVAC etc the car is as light as possible for road use - from there on its time to add power.
Quite impressed so far though as I think once the Link Xtreme ECU is tuned and a few other bits are lightend it should be able to run a high 14 second pass which is comparible to an EP3 Honda Civic type R with 200bhp and a higher rev limit.
5 BAR MAP sensor has now been fitted - using the hose where the evap solinoid uses which isn't in use anymore.
The car has fired up on the Link Xtreme now, just waiting on a set of open barrel crimpers to be able to wire in the wideband O2 sensor into the CAN port on the ECU, this will allow me to auto fuel and sort out the fueling map. It would also seem that some of the sensors aren't 100% setup correctly on the Link software as its showing 60C intake temps and 70C water temps on a cold engine!
Next stage after wiring in the wideband is to work out the calibration of a few of the stock sensors and then drive around a bit to get some logging done for the fueling.
I have also spoken with MWR with regards to the JUBU or SSC 3rd and 4th gears, they have confirmed that the gears will be ok for my power goals - they also said that 21psi of boost would be the most they would run to maintain reliability - which is good as that is the boost target I was planning.
I have used the Borg Warner turbo matcher and it also has estimated torque and power figures, at 7,800 RPM the engine should be making just over 400bhp and just over 300 ft/lb of torque - this is just in the limits of the gearsets which are rated to 295 ft/lbs. However MWR also mentioned that its usually the gearbox temp that causes the failures and I am planning to run a gearbox cooler in my build so this should keep the temps down meaning the oil can do its job. Plugging in the figure of 400bhp and a weight of 1000kg its predicting a 1/4 mile time of 11.54 - using the Borg power calculator and knocking back to boost to 14 psi it should have enough power to run high 11s. It all come down to how much the whole turbo setup weighs along with the extra coolers, I am aiming to hopefully run with stock weight of 1006kg for a FL - will see where it ends up.
With regards to engine cooling and protection I will be planning to run:
Baffled sump - probably the Elise parts one, Moroso have many issues with not sealing properly
Accusump - will preoil the engine before start up and maintain good oil pressure all the time
Engine oil cooler - probably with a rad in the driver side vent
Gearbox cooler - probably with a rad in the passenger side vent
Charge cooler - rad will be up front
Its worth noting that the engine should be able to handle more power than the 400bhp or so it should be running, its the gearbox that is the weak point, I don't plan to run an E153 box but I am probably at the limits on the C series box - although should be reliable with a gearbox cooler added.
There is a lot on the subject, the gearboxes are failing due to wheel hop and making all the rubbers polyurethane so the box will take all the stress. That being said cooler temps will help for longevity for sure.
Quote from: Nvy on July 21, 2018, 18:03
There is a lot on the subject, the gearboxes are failing due to wheel hop and making all the rubbers polyurethane so the box will take all the stress. That being said cooler temps will help for longevity for sure.
The C series gearbox doesn't have an intergrated cooler like the E series box, the C series box runs hot under heavy load or prolonged track use which thins the oil and causes wear, plan is to have my spare 6 speed box rebuilt and refreshed with either JUBU gears or SSC gears in 3rd and 4th which should then hold the torque of the engine. I also plan to have the car mapped as to reduce the torque when shifting to avoid shocking the box. The car will be 95% on the road so will be running with fairly standard bushes etc to reduce vibration day to day.
Just one on the engine cooling. I'm obviously aware that you're going to be running more than twice the boost levels that I'm at but with the new sump you'll be surprised at the cooling effects. It adds more than 2 litres to oil capacity and is essentially a giant heat sink itself.
I'm running a tiny eBay special radiator at the moment but with the koyorad one that I have in the garage fitted I think the system will be pretty darn effective. Is twice(ish) the thickness of stock.
Just thought I'd mention.
Also I wonder if you just used an ally heatsink to the underside of the sump it would make much difference?
Someone on here welded fins on the bottom of the sump. Making the sump even more of a heat sink. That should theoretically be the most effective because you're increasing the surface area of the metal by like 3x or more
Quote from: shnazzle on July 23, 2018, 21:52
Someone on here welded fins on the bottom of the sump. Making the sump even more of a heat sink. That should theoretically be the most effective because you're increasing the surface area of the metal by like 3x or more
That's pretty epic. I mean it was a theory for me but love people who actually have the skills and minerals to do stuff like this lol.
It was the guy with the supercharged 2zz I think. Not Steve but the other dude.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 23, 2018, 21:59
It was the guy with the supercharged 2zz I think. Not Steve but the other dude.
@kulmen I think...
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Quote from: dan944 on July 23, 2018, 17:04
Just one on the engine cooling. I'm obviously aware that you're going to be running more than twice the boost levels that I'm at but with the new sump you'll be surprised at the cooling effects. It adds more than 2 litres to oil capacity and is essentially a giant heat sink itself.
I'm running a tiny eBay special radiator at the moment but with the koyorad one that I have in the garage fitted I think the system will be pretty darn effective. Is twice(ish) the thickness of stock.
Just thought I'd mention.
Also I wonder if you just used an ally heatsink to the underside of the sump it would make much difference?
I will be running a Moroso baffled oil sump as well as a themostatic Mocal oil cooler for the engine, the Moroso oil sump holds additional oil so there is more thermal mass there to heat up, coupled with additional oil in the Accusump etc. Finned sumps aren't that new, I remember on my 1984 998 mini the sump was finned - probably due to the fact that the engine sump also had the gearbox in it and needed cooling somehow! Running a finned sump might make sense, however the ground clearance might be more of an issue so I think I will go with more active cooling - at least there are side air vents I can add the additional radiators into.
I watched a video a year or so back around the most important part of tuning - heat management, it was a team who were building a pikes peak car, sure the engine can make huge power but not sustained owing to the need to get rid of all the heat for both engine and intake. This would be the same when I do go to a track day in it as there will be sustained high RPMs, lots of heat to get rid of, as mentioned its the main reason the standard box fails, sure the 3rd and 4th gears are a bit weak but would be fine if the oil was at the correct viscosity and the internal parts were cooled.
I have a feeling I will probably be spending as much on cooling than I have on the machine work on the block - which I am picking up tomorrow along with the custom pistons and Molnar rods.
I also plan to get the wideband O2 pinned into the Link ECU over the next few days, there are a few configuration things I need to sort before its ready for a drive on the road, need to get the intake temp and coolant temp sensors correctly calibrated and it seems the plug and play Boomslang harness needs a few pins move around. Really looking forward to getting the car running on the Link ECU and then adjusted to my engine (basemap is from another car) - the Link ECU can quick tune the fueling using the wideband O2 and comparing it to the target AFRs for any given cell.
Using the Borg Warner turbo matcher and plugging in various figures for power it would seem that the engine should:
At 14psi should make 352 bhp and around 250 ft/lb torque
At 21psi should make 434 bhp and around 310 ft/lbs torque <--- might need to limit the torque at higher boost midrange
I am aiming to run an EFR 6758, at 7,800 rpm the engine needs around 45 lb/min at 21psi, I won't be running more than 21psi through the engine owing to reliability.
The good news is that it seems that the EFR 6758 is a T25 turbo with internal wastegate which will simplify the exhaust plumbing etc - although my T3 manifold (with a T25 adaptor) does have a wastegate port as well for an external wastegate which I might still run as well.
Car is now running on the Link Xtreme ECU with the Wideband O2 wired into a CAN port, the logging on the ECU gives an updated mixture map for each of the cells and can either auto tune the fuel as I drive or I can manually gather the data and it will adjust the map accordingly.
The car is now running 100% on the MAP sensor, still have the MAF plugged in as I need the intake air temp which is coupled into it but will mean that I can now just fit it into a larger tube and not worry about MAF calibration etc.
Still working through setup of some of the settings, need to configure the knock sensor as I don't think the correct option has been selected so the knock control is pulling timing when it doesn't need to (because it thinks its knocking).
I have now started to clear a space in the garage to convert into a temporary clean room, will be looking to use plastic sheeting on the wall as well as around the area to avoid any contamination during assembly. Everything will be cleaned many times before assembly, although I probably won't start the process for another couple of months as I need to get the head skimmed and the valvetrain ordered and put together.
I have also ordered some new OEM parts, will be going with the OEM 1zz oil pump and head gasket, I also have a replacement timing chain and gear however will be reusing the VVTi gear from the lower mileage 1st engine.
I am also looking to not use the King bearings I had already purchased for the engine and instead run with either Taiho or Daido bearings - these are the Toyota OEM bearing manufactures and I feel they will be suited to my road going application.
Worth noting that I won't be running full power all the time and even when I do look at track days I won't be running full power - project 11 just needs to prove that it can run a 1/4 mile time of 11.xxx on street tyres, after which the power will be turned down for day to day use. The rev limit will also be limited to 7,800 RPM (cams rated to 8k), and will be running a Canton accusump to ensure that oil pressure is maintained all the time if there is ever an issue with high rpm cavitation etc.
I now have the CSS block back as well as the custom Traum forged pistons with rings, need to check the rest of the box to make sure the Molnar rods are in there but it all looks really good!
Next port of call for the engine is to setup a mini clean room so I can clean down the block and surfaces and test fit the bearings for clearance, will try initially with a set of King bearings but tempted to go with a set of OEM bearings instead from Taiho or Daido.
I have also found a facelift brochure for the car online, looks like the kerb weight is stated at 1,030kg - kerb weight seems to also include a fuel tank at 90% capacity as well, 48 litre tank = 43kg of weight so empty it would be at 987kg (need to check if that's correct for UK spec kerb weight). I will look to see if I can work out the weight of the car when doing the last drag run to work out the sort of power level the car would have - makes sense if it was lighter than I expected.
I also have a set of camber bolts for the front and rear ready for when coilovers arrive - along with new rear drop links and uprated Whiteline ARBs.
Quote from: m1tch on August 16, 2018, 07:59
I now have the CSS block back as well as the custom Traum forged pistons with rings, need to check the rest of the box to make sure the Molnar rods are in there but it all looks really good!
Next port of call for the engine is to setup a mini clean room so I can clean down the block and surfaces and test fit the bearings for clearance, will try initially with a set of King bearings but tempted to go with a set of OEM bearings instead from Taiho or Daido.
I have also found a facelift brochure for the car online, looks like the kerb weight is stated at 1,030kg - kerb weight seems to also include a fuel tank at 90% capacity as well, 48 litre tank = 43kg of weight so empty it would be at 987kg (need to check if that's correct for UK spec kerb weight). I will look to see if I can work out the weight of the car when doing the last drag run to work out the sort of power level the car would have - makes sense if it was lighter than I expected.
I also have a set of camber bolts for the front and rear ready for when coilovers arrive - along with new rear drop links and uprated Whiteline ARBs.
If your coils have top mount adjustment you will not need the camber bolts. But maybe you have something else in mind.
Quote from: Nvy on August 16, 2018, 08:21
Quote from: m1tch on August 16, 2018, 07:59
I now have the CSS block back as well as the custom Traum forged pistons with rings, need to check the rest of the box to make sure the Molnar rods are in there but it all looks really good!
Next port of call for the engine is to setup a mini clean room so I can clean down the block and surfaces and test fit the bearings for clearance, will try initially with a set of King bearings but tempted to go with a set of OEM bearings instead from Taiho or Daido.
I have also found a facelift brochure for the car online, looks like the kerb weight is stated at 1,030kg - kerb weight seems to also include a fuel tank at 90% capacity as well, 48 litre tank = 43kg of weight so empty it would be at 987kg (need to check if that's correct for UK spec kerb weight). I will look to see if I can work out the weight of the car when doing the last drag run to work out the sort of power level the car would have - makes sense if it was lighter than I expected.
I also have a set of camber bolts for the front and rear ready for when coilovers arrive - along with new rear drop links and uprated Whiteline ARBs.
If your coils have top mount adjustment you will not need the camber bolts. But maybe you have something else in mind.
Coilovers don't have adjustable top mounts, hence needing both front and rear camber bolts - not looking for much camber anyway.
I now have the CSS block, Traum pistons, Molnar rods, ARP head and main studs as well as flywheel bolts. I currently have a set of King bearings which I am going to initially install, current task is to clean everything and then check the oil clearances on the conrod and main bearings, I am reusing the crank from the initial engine I purchased which I checked was close to being almost new in terms of diameter and well within spec.
Looking at the workshop manual here are the oil clearances I am aiming for:
Main bearings
Min - 0.015mm (0.0006")
Max - 0.032mm (0.0013")
Limit - 0.050mm (0.0020")
Conrod bearings
Min - 0.028mm (0.0011")
Max - 0.060mm (0.0024")
Limit - 0.080mm (0.0031")
Looking at the min and max I have worked out the centre point of the range being:
Main - 0.235mm
Conrod - 0.044mm
It will be a while before I will be assembling the engine for install so will be checking the clearances and then will probably take it apart again as the assembly oil may or may not be 100% perfect when I come round to building the rest of the engine. I still have the cylinder head to build up as well along with the gearbox rebuild and still need a few upgraded parts such as the sump and flywheel.
I have now swapped over the exhaust to a much smaller silencer and removed the TTE, not had a chance to take it on the open road yet but its not much louder on idle which is good as I don't want to annoy the neighbors!
Stock TTE exhaust came to 13kg
Lightweight exhaust came to 6.5kg
Therefore I have an additional 6.5kg weight saving off the back of the car behind the axle which is great in moving the weight forward slightly. I also removed the large heat shield that usually covers the exhaust as the lightweight exhaust was heat wrapped and also much smaller and further away from anything that might melt! Still need to weigh these parts but might be an extra kg in weight from those parts.
With regards to overall weight saving, from my initial drag run to the new exhaust I would have a weight reduction of 74.4kg - running less fuel in the tank should push me up near the 100kg weight reduction.
I have now checked the clearance on the main bearings - they are well within spec at around 0.025mm so in the middle of the range for oil clearance. I need to purchase some sealant that goes between the block and the bearing girdle however the main studs are in etc so its just a case of checking crank end play and I can button up the block. I need to take it all apart again anyway so will check the conrod clearances whilst the crank is out.
Having torqued the main studs down (they are reusable ARP studs) all of the clearances were the same across the main bearings, I also put some oil on the bearings and torqued it down again, no binding at all and its free moving which is great.
Order of play next for the engine is:
Order block and girdle sealant
Take apart and clean everything again
Torque block down again with thrust washers in to check for end play
Take apart and clean everything again
Check clearance on the conrods
If ok, clean everything again and then add sealant
Put the crank in place and torque down the ARP main studs for the last time and use engine assembly oil for first start protection
From there I will re-wrap the engine with basically catering clingfilm to keep all of the muck out of the engine, I might also attached a spare sump I have which will need to be cleaned out to protect the mating surface for the oil pan - need to order a Moroso pan for the build.
I will then look to send off the cylinder head once I work out what is happening with the intake manifold, currently have 5 options:
Fit the stock plastic 1zz intake manifold and hope it doesn't fail
Buy a really expensive stock plastic 1zz manifold with the divider removed from MWR
Fit the OEM metal 1zz intake manifold - will need modifying slightly to fit a larger throttle body and maybe plenum
Modify a 2zz intake manifold to fit onto the 1zz manifold - looking into options of either redrilling, creating an adapter plate or getting a 1zz flange welded on
Go fully custom
Lot of work, end result should be worth it
Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on September 10, 2018, 21:49
Lot of work, end result should be worth it
It is indeed quite a lot of work but should be worth it as I will know every piece of the engine and setup with the benefit of being able to increase or decrease the power level with the different levels of boost. The reason why I have kept with the 1zz is that its the engine Toyota fitted to the car, if I wasn't going to use the 1zz I would have probably gone with a 1.8t or K swap instead - if I am going to do an engine swap I might as well swap something else in, quite interested at the 20B swap I have seen.
My build will be gearbox limited, although I won't be running full power all the time, just need to get the power up there enough to run an 11 second 1/4 mile to prove that the car can do it, I will then just turn the boost down for normal driving. If I rev it to 8k RPM it should make around 430bhp at 21psi which should be a mid 11 pass if the car weighs 1,000kg - think I need around 340bhp or so to get into the 11s.
I think the plan will be to build the engine up over the winter and then look to swap it out after next year's MOT, will be running NA initially to bed it in, can then easily swap out the fuel rail and exhaust manifolds etc, its all of the internal parts that I can't really swap out!
Don't scrimp.
Wherever I have tried to save money on my build is where things have gone wrong.
Do it right the first time will be easier and cheaper long term.
Quote from: 1979scotte on September 11, 2018, 07:48
Don't scrimp.
Wherever I have tried to save money on my build is where things have gone wrong.
Do it right the first time will be easier and cheaper long term.
Yep, not scrimping on anything, Link Xtreme ECU, ARP studs, Moroso pan, Supertech valves, custom pistons, Molnar forged rods as well as using OEM Toyota parts on the refresh, not reusing any of the seals or gasket. It will take me quite a while to pull all of the parts together, which is fine as I am in no rush, looking at the EFR 6758 for the turbo which should be able to run fine at the top end but still be ok at lower boost levels.
Quote from: m1tch on September 11, 2018, 07:54
Quote from: 1979scotte on September 11, 2018, 07:48
Don't scrimp.
Wherever I have tried to save money on my build is where things have gone wrong.
Do it right the first time will be easier and cheaper long term.
Yep, not scrimping on anything, Link Xtreme ECU, ARP studs, Moroso pan, Supertech valves, custom pistons, Molnar forged rods as well as using OEM Toyota parts on the refresh, not reusing any of the seals or gasket. It will take me quite a while to pull all of the parts together, which is fine as I am in no rush, looking at the EFR 6758 for the turbo which should be able to run fine at the top end but still be ok at lower boost levels.
Talking about the intake manifold.
Either get a metal one from an early car or go custom.
On another note what wastegate and BOV are you going for?
Beware anything cheap on eBay none of it worked well for my build.
Saying that don't all the EFR turbos have it all built in?
Quote from: 1979scotte on September 11, 2018, 09:57
Quote from: m1tch on September 11, 2018, 07:54
Quote from: 1979scotte on September 11, 2018, 07:48
Don't scrimp.
Wherever I have tried to save money on my build is where things have gone wrong.
Do it right the first time will be easier and cheaper long term.
Yep, not scrimping on anything, Link Xtreme ECU, ARP studs, Moroso pan, Supertech valves, custom pistons, Molnar forged rods as well as using OEM Toyota parts on the refresh, not reusing any of the seals or gasket. It will take me quite a while to pull all of the parts together, which is fine as I am in no rush, looking at the EFR 6758 for the turbo which should be able to run fine at the top end but still be ok at lower boost levels.
Talking about the intake manifold.
Either get a metal one from an early car or go custom.
On another note what wastegate and BOV are you going for?
Beware anything cheap on eBay none of it worked well for my build.
Saying that don't all the EFR turbos have it all built in?
I have a 99-02 1zz metal intake manifold coming over from the states, the plenum is tiny so might look to mod it slightly to add some extra volume to the plenum coupled with possibly adding a larger throttlebody.
I have a 2zz manifold on the workbench in the garage I am currently looking at redrilling for the 1zz flange - seems that it might actually work simply redrilling the manifold with a different stud pattern as none of the 1zz studs on the head interfere with the 2zz runners - the 2zz runners are just much larger!
I believe the EFR turbo I plan to get has both an integrated BOV as well as it having an internal wastegate, I do however have a Baileys BOV sitting on the shelf, think its a DV26, and my exhaust manifold has provision for an external wastegate - will look at getting a Tial if needed.
I am pretty much set with the parts I need for the engine in terms of internals, still need to order a few items, now starting to focus on the other parts such as the intake and fuel system.
I have also noticed that I actually have a 2 piece 2zz intake manifold not the 1 piece 2zz intake manifold so I can easily unbolt the 2 halves and lightly port the runners if needed - seems that the 2 piece is slightly more sought after.
I now have a Clutchmaster lightweight flywheel currently looking into clutch options at the moment but not a huge rush.
I have also ordered some engine assembly oil and some gasket maker - the service manual calls for Toyota 103 seal packing FIPG however its only available in the states and would cost around £75 from the dealer to import - will be going with some Permatex ultra black.
All of the OEM gaskets have also arrived from Japan for the engine build, these include:
Full OEM gasket and seal set including OEM head gasket
OEM oil pump
OEM chain tensioner
OEM timing change
OEM chain slippers
OEM crank sprocket
OEM cam sprocket (reusing the VVTI gear)
Hey,
Any progress? :)
Good point. Where you at Mitch?
Sorry guys, the car has been tucked up but I have been working on a few bits of it getting it together, gradually building up the engine, no huge rush at the moment though.
I have a set of JUBU gears now to go into the box when I get it rebuilt.
I am mainly working on the engine tune at the moment, currently configuring for launch control and also knock control if possible on the narrowband knock sensor (will be upgrading this on the new engine).
Plan will be to run the Link ECU at Santapod in a couple of months to see if the Link ECU gets any additional power to improve my drag time (with the same weight reduction).
I am also looking at wheel and tyre options, will look like I need to run 17s to get the wider rears, looking to run 225/45/17s on the rear which should hold the power moving forward and unlocks a huge number of tyre options as well. The tyres are 5.5% larger than stock so will need to adjust the speedo/get a GPS speedo to check actual speed - I can adjust this within the Link ECU however the stock speedo is actually being run off the stock ECU rather than the Link.
I have a set of Meister R coilovers to fit along with Whiteline ARB front and rears to fit also, will look to do this all in one go to refresh the suspension.
I have a feeling that a high 14 second pass is the best the car will manage to do running the stock engine (on 178k miles), there are a few additional items I might be able to remove or pair down such as the driver seat and battery which might improve drag times by a few tenths. I don't think I have run with the much lighter exhaust either so will be interesting to see what I can get out of it this year - plan for this year is to run the stock engine NA and continue to build the forged engine. It's taking a bit longer to pull things together due to parts availability and free time from my end.
I will keep the thread updated and will get some photos up soon - also looking at rear spoiler options as well and will look to do a tuft test to check the airflow on the rear lid of the car to see where the air actually goes!
Mini update, will be looking to run at Santa Pod at the start of June, have just removed the doorcards to trim slightly more weight out of it and have spent a bit of the Easter weekend logging and tweaking the ECU map, fueling is now within 0.1 AFR of target without turning on the wideband autotune. The Link ECU has a setting where I can use the wideband O2 sensor and automatically adjust the fueling to the target AFR when driving - only temporary but the fueling values are very close to spot on so its not really working too hard.
Will look to see if I can work out how to run the launch control, would usually use a clutch switch or toggle switch to activate, think I can also active it using a % throttle and arm when the speed is at 0.
Anyway, this coming run will probably be the final run with the stock engine at 178k miles, after I (hopefully) improve on the 14.96 time I am going to be changing a few things back to road trim such as adding in audio and a few bits of carpet etc that had been removed. Plan will be to get the forged engine build up and swap in maybe next year, I have coilovers and Whiteline ARBs to fit first and might also look to swap out the wheels and tyres as well.
The engine is coming together very slowly, I am taking my time with it (when I do get free time), and performance parts for the 1zz at this power level aren't the easiest to come by, will be ordering the Supertech master valvetrain kit soon, still need to finish the short block but need to check oil clearances on the rod bearings first, pretty sure they will be fine but need to check everything over.
Main big parts still to buy for the engine assembly are - note that this is to just get the engine together rather than turbo:
Supertech valvetrain (valves, dual springs and titanium retainers, setup is rated to 8,500 rpm)
Moroso sump (baffled and will allow easy fitment of the turbo drain etc)
Clutch - looking at a few ACT options, luckily the 2zz engines have the same clutch but currently looking for something that can hold the torque but still be drivable
Intake manifold - need to see if I can remove the internal plastic divider from the stock manifold myself, otherwise I will need to order one from the States or go fully custom
Gearbox needs to be sent off for a rebuild, I have the gearbox and the JUBU gears, just need Rogue motorsports to rebuild it
I have all new gaskets, seals, sealants, oil pump, chain etc so those are ready to go, think the main big step is getting the oil clearances checked on the rods and get the rods and pistons in, from there its just a case of installing valves and springs, checking the clearance on the buckets for the custom Piper cams and bolt the whole thing together. Its taking longer than expected due to a few higher priced parts but for me if I am going to build the engine I am going to build it properly and only build it once, its coming together though.
Additional parts such as the fueling can wait as I can change over injectors and exhaust parts when the engine is in whereas I can't change any internal parts or the intake manifold.
Small update with big things.
Looking forward to seeing the results on the strip
Quote from: m1tch on April 23, 2019, 07:20
Mini update, will be looking to run at Santa Pod at the start of June, have just removed the doorcards to trim slightly more weight out of it and have spent a bit of the Easter weekend logging and tweaking the ECU map, fueling is now within 0.1 AFR of target without turning on the wideband autotune. The Link ECU has a setting where I can use the wideband O2 sensor and automatically adjust the fueling to the target AFR when driving - only temporary but the fueling values are very close to spot on so its not really working too hard.
Will look to see if I can work out how to run the launch control, would usually use a clutch switch or toggle switch to activate, think I can also active it using a % throttle and arm when the speed is at 0.
Anyway, this coming run will probably be the final run with the stock engine at 178k miles, after I (hopefully) improve on the 14.96 time I am going to be changing a few things back to road trim such as adding in audio and a few bits of carpet etc that had been removed. Plan will be to get the forged engine build up and swap in maybe next year, I have coilovers and Whiteline ARBs to fit first and might also look to swap out the wheels and tyres as well.
The engine is coming together very slowly, I am taking my time with it (when I do get free time), and performance parts for the 1zz at this power level aren't the easiest to come by, will be ordering the Supertech master valvetrain kit soon, still need to finish the short block but need to check oil clearances on the rod bearings first, pretty sure they will be fine but need to check everything over.
Main big parts still to buy for the engine assembly are - note that this is to just get the engine together rather than turbo:
Supertech valvetrain (valves, dual springs and titanium retainers, setup is rated to 8,500 rpm)
Moroso sump (baffled and will allow easy fitment of the turbo drain etc)
Clutch - looking at a few ACT options, luckily the 2zz engines have the same clutch but currently looking for something that can hold the torque but still be drivable
Intake manifold - need to see if I can remove the internal plastic divider from the stock manifold myself, otherwise I will need to order one from the States or go fully custom
Gearbox needs to be sent off for a rebuild, I have the gearbox and the JUBU gears, just need Rogue motorsports to rebuild it
I have all new gaskets, seals, sealants, oil pump, chain etc so those are ready to go, think the main big step is getting the oil clearances checked on the rods and get the rods and pistons in, from there its just a case of installing valves and springs, checking the clearance on the buckets for the custom Piper cams and bolt the whole thing together. Its taking longer than expected due to a few higher priced parts but for me if I am going to build the engine I am going to build it properly and only build it once, its coming together though.
Additional parts such as the fueling can wait as I can change over injectors and exhaust parts when the engine is in whereas I can't change any internal parts or the intake manifold.
What RPM are your pistons and rods rated to? And what are the intake/exhaust valve clearances on the Piper cams as the Crowers I've put in are a lot different to standard clearances?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Regarding clutch options, I have used (with great effect, and mega reliability) ClutchMasters clutches in my old ST205 Celica GT-Four, which was a low 12 second car.
I believe that I had an FX300 holding about 350LBs/Ft torque. I did easily over 200 7,000RPM full bore launches, and I had zero problems with the clutch.
Perhaps you could look at an FX400/FX500 clutch?
http://www.clutchmasters.com/clutch-kits/
2ZZ FX500 here: http://www.clutchmasters.com/fx500-16080-hdb6/
Also, with intake manifold, I was wondering if 2ZZ metal (and port matched) would fit the 1ZZ?
Quote from: Alex Knight on April 23, 2019, 14:03
Regarding clutch options, I have used (with great effect, and mega reliability) ClutchMasters clutches in my old ST205 Celica GT-Four, which was a low 12 second car.
I believe that I had an FX300 holding about 350LBs/Ft torque. I did easily over 200 7,000RPM full bore launches, and I had zero problems with the clutch.
Perhaps you could look at an FX400/FX500 clutch?
http://www.clutchmasters.com/clutch-kits/
2ZZ FX500 here: http://www.clutchmasters.com/fx500-16080-hdb6/
Also, with intake manifold, I was wondering if 2ZZ metal (and port matched) would fit the 1ZZ?
I have a clutch master flywheel to fit as well so I am looking at some of their clutch kits, JUBU gears are rated to 295ft/lbs but can take more.
Someone was making an adaptor kit to fit the 2zz manifold to the 1zz, spoke with MWR who tried it and found it lost power Vs the stock plastic one. Also the adapter spaced out the manifold a bit so would be ok with 1zz engines as fwd, think it would hit the firewall on the roadster etc.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 23, 2019, 09:31
Quote from: m1tch on April 23, 2019, 07:20
Mini update, will be looking to run at Santa Pod at the start of June, have just removed the doorcards to trim slightly more weight out of it and have spent a bit of the Easter weekend logging and tweaking the ECU map, fueling is now within 0.1 AFR of target without turning on the wideband autotune. The Link ECU has a setting where I can use the wideband O2 sensor and automatically adjust the fueling to the target AFR when driving - only temporary but the fueling values are very close to spot on so its not really working too hard.
Will look to see if I can work out how to run the launch control, would usually use a clutch switch or toggle switch to activate, think I can also active it using a % throttle and arm when the speed is at 0.
Anyway, this coming run will probably be the final run with the stock engine at 178k miles, after I (hopefully) improve on the 14.96 time I am going to be changing a few things back to road trim such as adding in audio and a few bits of carpet etc that had been removed. Plan will be to get the forged engine build up and swap in maybe next year, I have coilovers and Whiteline ARBs to fit first and might also look to swap out the wheels and tyres as well.
The engine is coming together very slowly, I am taking my time with it (when I do get free time), and performance parts for the 1zz at this power level aren't the easiest to come by, will be ordering the Supertech master valvetrain kit soon, still need to finish the short block but need to check oil clearances on the rod bearings first, pretty sure they will be fine but need to check everything over.
Main big parts still to buy for the engine assembly are - note that this is to just get the engine together rather than turbo:
Supertech valvetrain (valves, dual springs and titanium retainers, setup is rated to 8,500 rpm)
Moroso sump (baffled and will allow easy fitment of the turbo drain etc)
Clutch - looking at a few ACT options, luckily the 2zz engines have the same clutch but currently looking for something that can hold the torque but still be drivable
Intake manifold - need to see if I can remove the internal plastic divider from the stock manifold myself, otherwise I will need to order one from the States or go fully custom
Gearbox needs to be sent off for a rebuild, I have the gearbox and the JUBU gears, just need Rogue motorsports to rebuild it
I have all new gaskets, seals, sealants, oil pump, chain etc so those are ready to go, think the main big step is getting the oil clearances checked on the rods and get the rods and pistons in, from there its just a case of installing valves and springs, checking the clearance on the buckets for the custom Piper cams and bolt the whole thing together. Its taking longer than expected due to a few higher priced parts but for me if I am going to build the engine I am going to build it properly and only build it once, its coming together though.
Additional parts such as the fueling can wait as I can change over injectors and exhaust parts when the engine is in whereas I can't change any internal parts or the intake manifold.
What RPM are your pistons and rods rated to? And what are the intake/exhaust valve clearances on the Piper cams as the Crowers I've put in are a lot different to standard clearances?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I will check with the various suppliers in terms of RPMs etc, they are Molnar rods and custom Traum pistons, I think MWR rev to around 7,800 on their built engines, guess I will see where the power drops off on the dyno when it gets there. I will look to work out shift points with regards to the gearbox ratios - you can get better wheel torque from running higher RPM in a lower gear (less power by more mechanical advantage) than more power in a longer gear - will work out shift points.
Cam specs are:
Inlet
Open 20
Close 60
Lift 0.393"
Duration 260
Clearance 0.008"
Exhaust
Open 52
Close 12
Lift 0.348"
Duration 244
Clearance 0.010"
Overlap is 32 degrees
Good stuff, be prepared to have to change probably half your buckets with those clearances, they're the same as the Crowers and a lot tighter than standard.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2019, 16:42
Good stuff, be prepared to have to change probably half your buckets with those clearances, they're the same as the Crowers and a lot tighter than standard.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, will be ordering the Supertech valvetrain soon so will work on the head over the next couple of months, will see what bucket clearances I currently have and see how many I need to swap out. Its a shame they aren't hydraulic or can be shimmed but I guess the 1zz was never meant to be making huge power!
Quote from: m1tch on May 2, 2019, 07:22
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2019, 16:42
Good stuff, be prepared to have to change probably half your buckets with those clearances, they're the same as the Crowers and a lot tighter than standard.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, will be ordering the Supertech valvetrain soon so will work on the head over the next couple of months, will see what bucket clearances I currently have and see how many I need to swap out. Its a shame they aren't hydraulic or can be shimmed but I guess the 1zz was never meant to be making huge power!
You can't check your clearances until you've fitted the new valvetrain and cams, that's what held me up on mine while all the parts came in.
You'll need to lap the valves in first then fit the cams and torque everything up and start checking, all good fun.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 2, 2019, 07:54
Quote from: m1tch on May 2, 2019, 07:22
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2019, 16:42
Good stuff, be prepared to have to change probably half your buckets with those clearances, they're the same as the Crowers and a lot tighter than standard.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, will be ordering the Supertech valvetrain soon so will work on the head over the next couple of months, will see what bucket clearances I currently have and see how many I need to swap out. Its a shame they aren't hydraulic or can be shimmed but I guess the 1zz was never meant to be making huge power!
You can't check your clearances until you've fitted the new valvetrain and cams, that's what held me up on mine while all the parts came in.
You'll need to lap the valves in first then fit the cams and torque everything up and start checking, all good fun.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indeed, I am doing it in stages, first time I have ever built and engine so taking my time, no real deadline for it to be finished although will probably crack on with getting parts ordered soon budget depending etc I have the cams already and the supertech kit comes with valves, dual springs and titanium retainers. I have a set of Meister R coilovers and Whiteline ARBs to also be fitted so will get those in first, might then look to get rims and tyres that I have been researching for quite a while lol.
Its coming together though, I am going to head to Santapod next month when the main RWYB dates are, get a drag time with as much removed as I can (but still ok for a daily) - will then see how fast the car can run with the most weight removed coupled with the Link ECU - will be happy if I nibble away a bit more into the 14s, best time was a 14.96 with quite a few runs at exactly 15 seconds - would be great to run a 14.8 or closer to a 14.9.
After that I am going to add back a few stock parts as from that point the car won't go any faster until the new engine and setup, will be replacing the stereo as well as a few trim pieces, might also swap out the seats etc and a few minor tweaks to it.
Means that if when the time comes with the turbo etc and the car runs a 12.1 I know that I can pull out some weight to drop into the 11s to tick the power/weight goal of the car - if running at 1000kg, looking at the calculator it would predict I need around 330 bhp - considering the engine will probably make around 70-100bhp more than that I should be ok to run the car with most of the stock parts installed on the inside. Up at 400bhp its predicting a mid 11 second pass - even with the car at 250kg heavier than stock at 400bhp it should still run an 11!
As it is the car is already lighter than stock with the rear bin removal as well as various heat shields and other parts so the aim would be to run at stock weight with the turbo fitted - eg remove the same amount of weight that I put back in with the turbo.
I've got the supertech valve train, if you haven't already I'd look at getting viton stem seals too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Inlet and exhaust have different rubber types. BY design.
Don't put the same seals on all 16.
Quote from: Carolyn on May 2, 2019, 14:19
Inlet and exhaust have different rubber types. BY design.
Don't put the same seals on all 16.
That's interesting, I asked for a set of Viton stem seals and allegedly received a full set of 16. They're different seals each side for sure but wasn't aware of differences in material.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just doing a bit more prep before going to Santapod in a couple of weekends time now, I pressure washed the car a couple of weeks ago and recently found a puddle in the rear of the passenger section, the carpet sound deadening had absorbed quite a bit of water so I have pulled the carpet out as well.
I have also pulled a few additional items just for the drag strip to see what I can get out of the car in terms of the best power I can get as well as how light I can get it.
Additional items pulled from the car:
Door cards (but kept the door pulls)
Carpet
Instrument binnacle surround
Trim piece below the steering wheel
Trim surround the HVAC controls
Its worth noting that a lot of this trim is going back into the car once I have a final time attained, hope to better my current time of 14.96 to maybe a mid 14, guessing it might end up at around a 14.7 which I would still be happy with.
Looking at some of the 1/4 mile times for production cars, here are a few examples:
Subaru BRZ/GT86 - 15.19
Honda civic type R RN2 - 15.12
Nissan 300zx TT - 14.06
Celica T sport 190 - 14.97 <---already quicker
Clio V6 - 14.94
Jaguar E type (5.3 V12) - 14.88
Porsche 944 turbo - 14.8
Audi TT 1.8t 225 - 14.8
Honda civic type R EP3 - 14.72 <--- possible next run on stock engine + lighter weight
Honda civic type R EK9 - 14.62
Skyline GTR R34 - 13.96
Skyline GTR R33 - 13.93
Supra (4th gen) turbo - 13.77
Skyline GTR R32 - 13.64
Nissan Skyline GT-R R35 Nismo - 11.37 <--- possible target when engine work is complete
When you say production cars, I assume you mean fresh out of the showroom, fully loaded?
So, respectfully, not really a fair comparison with a part stripped car?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 26, 2019, 17:59
When you say production cars, I assume you mean fresh out of the showroom, fully loaded?
So, respectfully, not really a fair comparison with a part stripped car?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Looking at some of the Civic type R times on some of the Honda forums it would seem they usually run high 14s with a few bolt ons, low 14s with some interior stripped out. They would also be running 70bhp more power than me with 2k extra RPMs lol.
What I meant was where are those figures above from? Manufacturers or owners?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 27, 2019, 16:51
What I meant was where are those figures above from? Manufacturers or owners?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I grabbed them from the list below:
https://www.autosnout.com/Quarter-Mile-Car-List.php
Interesting to see the various cars in the list, still aiming for an 11 second pass for this project but basically after this next drag run I will be starting to mod the interior, going with a retro theme, still have suspension to bolt in which will be done after I have sorted the drag run out.
Aaah, all estimated, I wondered how they'd compiled a list of cars you wouldn't normally expect to be doing a production spec quarter mile.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 27, 2019, 17:10
Aaah, all estimated, I wondered how they'd compiled a list of cars you wouldn't normally expect to be doing a production spec quarter mile.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Probably matches up to something like this that basically works out the power to weight and then cross references it with a known 1/4 mile time etc for that power to weight:
http://www.torquestats.com/modified/index.php?pid=calculator
It would seem I need around 330bhp per ton or so for an 11 second pass, aiming for a guesstimate of around 400bhp for my build although won't be running anywhere near that when on the road - basically looking to prove the car can run that time and then dial it back.
when are you going to Santa Pod?
Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on May 27, 2019, 19:25
when are you going to Santa Pod?
Planning on going on the 15th June, weather depending, don't know how much of an improvement I can make, will try and get the launch control setup sorted though, will be happy if I run a 14.8 I think - that would be a 1 second improvement from stock.
I managed to run at Santa pod over the weekend, but of a mixed bag as I only had 2 runs and 1 aborted, had an issue with a misfire caused by water down the spark plug hole. Had this issue before, found it was some insulation got under the rubber gasket around the base of the coil meaning that all of the wet weather we had meant that it filled up.
The car ran ok for the first run with a 15.3, just before the 2nd run I heard a stumble which gradually got worse, 2nd pass was a 14.99 with a 60 ft of 2.07 so still a good launch but I think I have removed around 15kg more from the car since the last run so was down on power.
I aborted the 3rd run as it was really down on power past the 1/8 mile so backed off.
Here are the stats so far in terms of what I have learnt:
Stock power, stock weight 15.8 - 138bhp per ton
Stock power and around 68kg removed - 15.3 - 148bhp per ton
Extra power and around 68kg removed - 14.96 - 158bhp per ton (guesstimate 10bhp more than stock looking at the estimated times)
Car down on power but 83kg removed - 14.99 - 158bhp per ton - looks like I am down around 3bhp to get the same time with less weight
Estimated time if car was at 83kg removed and full power from previous runs - 14.86 (around 1 second improvement from stock)
This therefore means that the approx 15kg extra I had taken off works out at 1bhp per 5kg, I therefore so far am finding in terms of performance:
1/4 mile time is improved by 0.1s with every 10kg removed
1/4 mile time is improved by 0.03s with every 1bhp
This seems to show (with this sort of power and weight removed) that pulling weight out the car is more effective than increasing power.
@m1tch said:
"pulling weight out the car is more effective than increasing power".
That sounds like
@Petrus theorem!
Quote from: Joesson on June 17, 2019, 14:02@m1tch said:
"pulling weight out the car is more effective than increasing power".
That sounds like @Petrus theorem!
Until.. every killo becomes 4k in carbon parts :)
Quote from: m1tch on June 17, 2019, 13:42I managed to run at Santa pod over the weekend, but of a mixed bag as I only had 2 runs and 1 aborted, had an issue with a misfire caused by water down the spark plug hole. Had this issue before, found it was some insulation got under the rubber gasket around the base of the coil meaning that all of the wet weather we had meant that it filled up.
The car ran ok for the first run with a 15.3, just before the 2nd run I heard a stumble which gradually got worse, 2nd pass was a 14.99 with a 60 ft of 2.07 so still a good launch but I think I have removed around 15kg more from the car since the last run so was down on power.
I aborted the 3rd run as it was really down on power past the 1/8 mile so backed off.
Here are the stats so far in terms of what I have learnt:
Stock power, stock weight 15.8 - 138bhp per ton
Stock power and around 68kg removed - 15.3 - 148bhp per ton
Extra power and around 68kg removed - 14.96 - 158bhp per ton (guesstimate 10bhp more than stock looking at the estimated times)
Car down on power but 83kg removed - 14.99 - 158bhp per ton - looks like I am down around 3bhp to get the same time with less weight
Estimated time if car was at 83kg removed and full power from previous runs - 14.86 (around 1 second improvement from stock)
This therefore means that the approx 15kg extra I had taken off works out at 1bhp per 5kg, I therefore so far am finding in terms of performance:
1/4 mile time is improved by 0.1s with every 10kg removed
1/4 mile time is improved by 0.03s with every 1bhp
This seems to show (with this sort of power and weight removed) that pulling weight out the car is more effective than increasing power.
Excellent post!!
There is obviously a finite weight you can remove from the car coupled with the most power you can get with the stock engine just from NA tuning on an unopened engine.
As a best case scenario, removing around 83kg of weight, plus running low on fuel (I ran at 1/2 tank so could run 10kg less fuel) giving a 95kg or there abouts saving from stock weight. Looking around at a few dyno graphs on this site, the engine might make around 160bhp.
I am basing my weight from stock weight of 1030kg (facelift) and with 140bhp it seems to calculate to 15.8s which seems about right.
With the least weight and most power at 160bhp and 935kg its up at 174 bhp per ton and should run a 14.4.
I am now in the process of bolting back a fair few stock items into the car so that its more of a road car now that I have my test results - basically from stock to fully modded there is probably a 1.5 second improvement in 1/4 mile time.
Looking at the list of weights, I have worked out that in 'road trim' - that is with some weight taken out but still having things like a sound system its around a 30kg saving over stock so for my facelift car it would be at around 1 ton. I still need to find a weighbridge to actually work out how much the car weighs but can reverse engineer the weight once I do as I know how much has been removed at each point.
I am gradually moving my project forward, from now on the car will be in road trim and I now plan to do suspension and handling mods, wheels and tyres and some aero. I will also be building up the engine this year once all of the parts have been assembled. I think the new engine when run NA will have around the same power as the stock engine as the compression is slightly lower but has a higher RPM range although with FI cams installed.
I should also get a bit of weight saving from the coilovers but might be cancelled out with the wheel weight and any bracing etc.
Here is the possible combos coming up:
Road trim at -30kg saving (1000kg) + maxxed stock engine at around 160bhp - 163bhp per ton, 14.8s 1/4 mile
Then when I boost the engine here are some possible scenarios, weight will go up by probably around 50kg from road trim due to the extra parts:
Road trim with -30kg saving + turbo at +50kg (1020kg) - low boost at 220bhp - 219bhp per ton, 13.3s 1/4 mile
Road trim with -30kg saving + turbo at +50kg (1020kg) - mid boost at 300bhp - 299bhp per ton, 12.2s 1/4 mile
Road trim with -30kg saving + turbo at +50kg (1020kg) - high boost at 400bhp - 398bhp per ton, 11.6s 1/4 mile
Looking at the power needed to run any 11 second pass it would seem I would need 330bhp or more with the car at 1020kg.
I plan to run at 21psi of max boost and will probably need to retard the ignition slightly at 4.5k to stop the gearbox exploding. I will see how it goes when I get it professionally mapped with the turbo, will look to gradually nudge up the boost and keep an eye on the torque.
I will only plan to run at the highest boost pressure for a couple of drag runs to prove the car can run an 11, would need well over 500bhp to run a 10 as its hard to go faster the quicker you go which is why I think an 11 second 1/4 mile time is attainable.
Next on the list is probably to look at aero, looking at adding vortex generators to the hard top roof after doing some tuft tests, coupled with a boot lip spoiler. Will also look to fit the coilovers and ARBs in the next month or so and I also need to wire in the launch control switch.
Hopefully look to go back to Santapod in road trim with a fully working engine that isn't misfiring in a few weeks time to see what sort of time it will run as a baseline.
Thanks Mitch!!
With 10 liters of fuel I am already close to 900 kilos according to the weighbridge accross the road and with the ordered seats bolted in, that will be about 15 less. I hópe!
Lexan side windows and making them manual up/down should add another 8+ kilos of lightness. I am not sure it is worth the hassle, more sure it is not, but it has a serious cool factor for me: It is só hard core rallye and I lóve that.
At Nvy; adding lightness by remóving things is for free.
Without the windows, as I have not ordered those yet, but all the rest, I am at 1500€ for >100 kilos and that is incl. Enkei RPF1 which do a lot more than just make the car lighter.
Now... how to unclip the rearview ,mirror ....
Quote from: Petrus on June 17, 2019, 23:00Thanks Mitch!!
With 10 liters of fuel I am already close to 900 kilos according to the weighbridge accross the road and with the ordered seats bolted in, that will be about 15 less. I hópe!
Lexan side windows and making them manual up/down should add another 8+ kilos of lightness. I am not sure it is worth the hassle, more sure it is not, but it has a serious cool factor for me: It is só hard core rallye and I lóve that.
At Nvy; adding lightness by remóving things is for free.
Without the windows, as I have not ordered those yet, but all the rest, I am at 1500€ for >100 kilos and that is incl. Enkei RPF1 which do a lot more than just make the car lighter.
Now... how to unclip the rearview ,mirror ....
I am going to try and find somewhere I can weigh my car, there isn't anywhere local it seems which is annoying, I might also look to swap out the seats at some point for some road going bucket seats although the stock ones aren't actually that bad and even have harness holes!
I am going to go for a more 'retro' look on the inside, will be looking to swap out some of the buttons for toggle switches, add some of the diamond pattern fabric on the door cars and behind the seats etc.
From now on my car won't be stripped out any further with basically everything from the centre bar forward will be basically stock or modified stock. I won't be refitting the soft top though, just need to work out a way to tidy up the rear of the car. I can't refit the rear bin bases owing to the ECU although I might be able to move that if its easier, will try a few options. Basically I want to only bolt in any trim pieces that make the car feel more stock rather than trying to bolt everything in to return it to stock - even a small amount of weight saving will be good.
I think I might look to put the carpet back in, it only weighs around 3kg - for me I have pulled all the weight out the car for free, I haven't spent anything on making the car lighter. I will look to put up a full list of everything I have removed and the weights so others can work out what they feel is ok to remove.
Quote from: m1tch on June 18, 2019, 07:55I think I might look to put the carpet back in, it only weighs around 3kg - for me I have pulled all the weight out the car for free, I haven't spent anything on making the car lighter. I will look to put up a full list of everything I have removed and the weights so others can work out what they feel is ok to remove.
Also, anything which is not there anymore, will give no problems ;-)
Quote from: m1tch on June 17, 2019, 13:42I therefore so far am finding in terms of performance:
1/4 mile time is improved by 0.1s with every 10kg removed
Interestingly, I theorised the same gain for 0 to 60 times. I don't see much of contradiction, as I would expect that most of the acceleration gain from shedding weight (over a 1/4 mile) will happen below 60mph, as I think it is fair to say that at higher speeds it's pretty much all about having enough power to overcome the wind resistance.
Quote from: K T M Rider on March 3, 2019, 19:16Quote from: jvanzyl on February 28, 2019, 15:36Hi folks,
Just thought I'd start a new thread instead of landing on a reader's ride..
Does anyone have any kind of data on the acceleration increase per kg of weight that is lost?
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
From my ageing back copy of Evo:
PFL MR2 Weight 975kgs, 0 to 60mph in 7.6 seconds.
Lotus Elise 111S Weight 770kgs, 0 to 60mph in 5.4 seconds.
The Elise makes a fraction more power and torque (5bhp & 3 lb ft) and er, it's a Lotus but essentially (at least where 0 to 60 times are concerned) the Elise is pretty much just an MR2 that's been on a fairly serious diet.
So, I reckon the answer to your question may be somewhere around a 0.1 second reduction in 0 to 60 time per 10kg weight reduction (assuming the sort of weight reductions realistically achievable by mere mortals, not Toyota race teams)
Quote from: m1tch on June 17, 2019, 16:28There is obviously a finite weight you can remove from the car coupled with the most power you can get with the stock engine just from NA tuning on an unopened engine.
As a best case scenario, removing around 83kg of weight, plus running low on fuel (I ran at 1/2 tank so could run 10kg less fuel) giving a 95kg or there abouts saving from stock weight. Looking around at a few dyno graphs on this site, the engine might make around 160bhp.
I am basing my weight from stock weight of 1030kg (facelift) and with 140bhp it seems to calculate to 15.8s which seems about right.
With the least weight and most power at 160bhp and 935kg its up at 174 bhp per ton and should run a 14.4.
I am now in the process of bolting back a fair few stock items into the car so that its more of a road car now that I have my test results - basically from stock to fully modded there is probably a 1.5 second improvement in 1/4 mile time.
Looking at the list of weights, I have worked out that in 'road trim' - that is with some weight taken out but still having things like a sound system its around a 30kg saving over stock so for my facelift car it would be at around 1 ton. I still need to find a weighbridge to actually work out how much the car weighs but can reverse engineer the weight once I do as I know how much has been removed at each point...............
The place that aligned my 2003 FL last year (recommended by Patrick) popped it on some weigh scales and as I recall it was 986kg, I was certainly pleasantly surprised at the figure, expecting something nearer the often quoted 1030kg.
Still, I believe the 1030 figure is a kerb weight and have since discovered will therefore include a 90% full fuel tank. My fuel light was on so that's roughly 30kg right there and I was also missing both nappies, precats, the main precat heat shield the frunk trim panel and frunk lid.
Jack and spare wheel were present.
Quote from: K T M Rider on June 22, 2019, 13:34Still, I believe the 1030 figure is a kerb weight and have since discovered will therefore include a 90% full fuel tank.
The specs. of my car´s road license state 1060 kg. and this includes a full fuel tank.
With a quarter indicated mine showed 920 kg. on the weigh bridge.
I have just installed a full set of Meister R coilovers, coupled with Whiteline rear camber bolts and Whiteline rear ARB, I still have the front to fit at some point but I know thats slightly harder to fit.
Out the box the Meister R coilovers sit about the same height as the Tein springs, damping is slightly firmer (23/32 settings), having tried full soft and full hard I have set it to half way so 16 all round. I would say that this is probably about the same as the Teins.
Next on the list is to get it all aligned, have also installed a mechnless head unit and stock speakers initially.
One other upgrade has been to remove the MAF completly (not used with my setup) and have simply run a 45 degree elbow from 70mm to 76mm and refitted the cone. Need to look to remap slightly for the extra flow, the ECU has a closed loop option using the wideband so adjusts fueling compared to the AFR table.
I have now replaced the Whiteline camber bolts with the stock non adjustable ones, I am looking for a -1 degree rear camber, I have a feeling with the car lowered (to the same as the Tein height), I might be there already.
I have a camber gauge on the way so I can check to see what its currently at - looking at perhaps -2 degrees on the front with -1 degree on the rear.
My car is really coming together and handles really well with the coilovers, at setting of 16 all round its about the same as the Teins but everything feels stiffer - probably due to the upgraded rear ARB.
Quote from: m1tch on June 25, 2019, 21:24I am looking for a -1 degree rear camber,
What is your reasoning behind that?
Quote from: Petrus on June 25, 2019, 22:31Quote from: m1tch on June 25, 2019, 21:24I am looking for a -1 degree rear camber,
What is your reasoning behind that?
I am going with the below settings as a baseline, I believe standard its at -1 degree on the rear with only a slight front camber. I will be looking to keep the rear at the suggested -1 as its a road car and I don't need to run massive camber, most of the camber will be on the front. I believe the Whiteline camber bolts allow for + or - 1.5 degrees so will see where I am at and can easily dial more in if needed. I guess that's why most coilover/suspension kits you get have adjustability on the front but not the rear as although some rear camber is ok, you don't need to run as much as you might want to at the front and simply lowering the car will increase the negative camber anyway.
https://www.comeanddriveit.com/suspension/camber-caster-toe
Thank you for the explanation.
Negative camber is set to compensate for tyre distortion; for the slip angle of the tyre.
As a rule of thumb; the greater the centrifual force (grip, corner speed, weight), the more flexible the sidewall, the more negative camber is needed to reduce slip angle.
Because the MR has a rearward weight bias it is more usual to have a bit more negative camber at that end. Hence my question.
This observed, there are as you write several more factors for oversteer/understeer. Even tyre pressure!
Have fun!!
Quote from: Petrus on June 26, 2019, 08:03Thank you for the explanation.
Negative camber is set to compensate for tyre distortion; for the slip angle of the tyre.
As a rule of thumb; the greater the centrifual force (grip, corner speed, weight), the more flexible the sidewall, the more negative camber is needed to reduce slip angle.
Because the MR has a rearward weight bias it is more usual to have a bit more negative camber at that end. Hence my question.
This observed, there are as you write several more factors for oversteer/understeer. Even tyre pressure!
Have fun!!
I think for me I just need to get it dialed in to be balanced as a starting point, it won't be 100% optimised, I can already tell that the car is far more stable, I will be looking to refresh other suspension components as well as I get to them.
From a project progression point of view, I am looking at perhaps swapping to a PFL front bumper as I like the styling slightly more, alternatively I might look to run brake ducts instead of the front fogs as I have never used them, might even convert them to some DRLs or something.
From an engine management side, I am wiring in a few additional switches that I can set to various things, one of them is an anti theft option which cuts all fueling so the car won't start, will be hiding this anti theft button/switch somewhere in the car.
I also need to adjust/mod the hard top latches as they are not 100% tight but are on max adjust, will look to mod them to allow extra travel soon as I can see that the passenger side does get slightly wet so its not perfectly sealing.
Also need to cut the frunk plastics around the tops of the suspension owing to the Meister R adjustments.
With a bit of fettling the car has passed the MOT for an other year, same issues as last year, handbrake and emissions (lambda).
The rear calipers are new but it looks like the hand brake cables are just getting slightly stuck at the very ends but still move freely - the rubber boots have perished an the car doesn't do many miles so they seize up.
My issue with the emissions is due to the closed loop lambda, the actual CO% and HC are very low, but its the lambda of 1 that is the issue for me.
With the Link Xtreme ECU and the wideband O2 sensor the car does run at exactly 1 Lambda (14.7:1 AFR), however this is measured at the engine, whereas the MOT is measured at the tailpipe.
I have now looked at the MOT emissions Lambda reading and have found the following:
Lambda of 1 at the engine = between 1.088 to 1.077 at the exhaust tip (eg leaner)
I then bumped the fueling my 8% and the test was re-run:
Lambda of 1.08 at the engine = between 0.99 and 0.947 at the exhaust tip
Comparing these figures and trending them it shows that for an average of 1 lambda at the exhaust tip, the engine should be running at around 0.94 or 13.8:1 - the CAT leans out the reading by around 5.6%.
I am planning to get the car booked in again to see if I can adjust the fueling to 13.8 for the test next time will work, the O2 reading is from the pre cat manifold. The other option is to move the wideband sensor to the post cat O2 location for the MOT.
I will only be looking to measure the AFR at the engine as its as it should be, reading at the exhaust tip meaning that the fueling is around 5.6% too rich which is why I wouldn't be happy with any dyno using those tail pipe O2 sensors for tuning as the cat messes with the AFR figure.
Anyway, the car is now past its MOT with no advisories at 178k miles, plans for the car next would be to get an alignment sorted and new wheels and tyres, might also look at seats at some point as well coupled with some maintenance items such as one of the side hardtop clamps are out of adjustment and I need to change the lower UJ.
I also plan to get some more engine parts ordered and also need to send the gearbox off for a rebuild, hopefully will be able to get all the parts I need together this year to build up most of the engine over the next couple of months - taking my time over this build as everything needs to be correct.
I have now upgraded wheels and tyres on the car, they are Silverstone Performance 17s, specs I am running are:
7.5 x 17 ET45 front 205/40/17
8.0 x 17 ET50 rear 245/40/17
Was slightly concerned about the speed reading but they seem to read slightly under at 30mph and basically spot on the GPS reading at above 50 it would seem.
The 8" rear should allow me to run a wide range of tyres as they fit a wide range of OEM tyres for Audi/VW/Merc/BMW etc meaning I should be able to get some decent performance tyres.
The wheel and tyre combo are slightly heavier than stock but they are Team Dynamic 1.2 wheel so as light as you can really go on a 17 without spending £££s.
I might look to run a set of 15s all round at some point, the couple of miles I have done with the SP wheels and tyres basically mean there is never an issue with grip levels - quite different to the stock setup.
Quote from: m1tch on August 22, 2019, 12:51I have now upgraded wheels and tyres on the car, they are Silverstone Performance 17s, specs I am running are:
7.5 x 17 ET45 front 205/40/17
8.0 x 17 ET50 rear 245/40/17
Was slightly concerned about the speed reading but they seem to read slightly under at 30mph and basically spot on the GPS reading at above 50 it would seem.
The 8" rear should allow me to run a wide range of tyres as they fit a wide range of OEM tyres for Audi/VW/Merc/BMW etc meaning I should be able to get some decent performance tyres.
The wheel and tyre combo are slightly heavier than stock but they are Team Dynamic 1.2 wheel so as light as you can really go on a 17 without spending £££s.
I might look to run a set of 15s all round at some point, the couple of miles I have done with the SP wheels and tyres basically mean there is never an issue with grip levels - quite different to the stock setup.
What issues have you had with stock setup?
What tyres are you using?
I know you are going big power in the future but aren't you on stock power level atm?
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 22, 2019, 20:52Quote from: m1tch on August 22, 2019, 12:51I have now upgraded wheels and tyres on the car, they are Silverstone Performance 17s, specs I am running are:
7.5 x 17 ET45 front 205/40/17
8.0 x 17 ET50 rear 245/40/17
Was slightly concerned about the speed reading but they seem to read slightly under at 30mph and basically spot on the GPS reading at above 50 it would seem.
The 8" rear should allow me to run a wide range of tyres as they fit a wide range of OEM tyres for Audi/VW/Merc/BMW etc meaning I should be able to get some decent performance tyres.
The wheel and tyre combo are slightly heavier than stock but they are Team Dynamic 1.2 wheel so as light as you can really go on a 17 without spending £££s.
I might look to run a set of 15s all round at some point, the couple of miles I have done with the SP wheels and tyres basically mean there is never an issue with grip levels - quite different to the stock setup.
What issues have you had with stock setup?
What tyres are you using?
I know you are going big power in the future but aren't you on stock power level atm?
The stock wheels were in bad shape with the tyres being 'ok', no real issue with the stock setup but wanted something different, always found it odd to have 2 different size wheels (understand staggered tyre widths).
I will be looking to upgrade the tyres on the 17s to Yoko AD08R (or the new RS) which is why I have been checking the tyre sizes that I can get with the Yokos to make sure I can run them.
I am going to look to get another set of wheels soon as I am indeed at around stock power - will be looking to get a set of 15x7 wheels and stagger the tyres, probably 195 front 205 rear as I know I can get a lot of tyre options in that range, especially for 195/50/15s.
I have swapped over to the 17s at the moment to see how the car handles and to check out fitment and if there are any issue with rubbing. Might do a DIY refurb on the stock rims this weekend if I can get a chance to neaten them up, will probably then refit the stock setup and put the 17s in the garage for when I am ready for them. Wasn't really meant to get new wheels at this point but as some came up I just went for it.
I believe I have now almost ordered all of the parts to build up my forged engine - will be running this engine initially NA and then simply swap over injectors and bolt on a turbo etc at a later date.
Full spec of the build is:
- 1zz block
- 79.5mm bore (0.5mm overbore)
- CSS (cylinder support system) - 1zz is now a semi closed deck and rated to around 600bhp
- Molnar rods
- ARP block studs
- ARP head studs
- ARP flywheel bolts
- Stock crank (has been shown to hold up fine well over 500bhp
- Custom Traum pistons - 9.5:1 compression
- Custom Piper forced induction camshafts
- Stock 1zz head, might clean up any obvious cast marks (can do more harm than good if trying to port)
- King bearings - went with Bimetal bearings as no race bearings exist for the 1zz
- Full master valvetrain kit from Supertech - stainless steel valves, dual valve springs, titanium retainers, rated to 8,500rpm
- Clutch master lightened flywheel
- Stock 6 speed gearbox (with LSD) but with upgraded JUBU gears for 3rd and 4th - rated to 295 ft/lbs but should hold higher
- Moroso oil pan
- Stock head gasket
- Stock oil pump (brand new OEM) - might look to see if I can fit the uprated 2zz gears)
- All OEM gaskets, chains and sprockets
I still need to order a dividerless 1zz intake manifold and sort out a clutch to hold the future torque level but can still assemble the short block in the mean time.
There will be a seperate list of parts when looking to turbo the engine including fuelling upgrades, an accusump as well as the charge cooler etc, but can easily bolt on/add them when the time comes, will probably also switch to a return system with an FPR when I change the engine over.
I am unsure as to what power the engine will make, will be more concerned about the torque through the gearbox so will be limiting peak torque with boost by gear and retarding the timing slightly via the mapping. Will be aiming to run the car at around 21psi of boost, will be looking at getting a Borg EFR 6758. Looking at the Borg EFR turbos, they are neatly packaged together with no need for an additional external wastegate (they are fitted with a 50mm internal wastegate) so exhaust routing should be simple.
As a guess (using the Borg turbo matcher), at 21 psi at top RPM the engine should hopefully be making around 420bhp - so triple stock power. The good thing is that I can easily dial down the boost for the road and the EFR turbo is still ok at lower boost (as its ball bearing and low inertia wheel). Will mean that I can have it mapped for full power to use on the drag strip a couple of times, then dial it back when driving it normally.
I know that the engine build isn't the cheapest but I still think it will be cheaper than a stock used Lotus Elise all in. The car should weigh around 1000kg to 1100kg I think so would be at around 380-420 bhp per ton, looking a bhp per ton list of various cars, here are some examples of the sorts of cars are similar:
Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Super Trofeo Stradale - 419.4 bhp per ton, £209,811
Bugatti EB110 Supersport - 417.4 bhp per ton, £627,200
McLaren MP4-12C V8 TT - 412.8 bhp per ton, £187,482
Lamborghini Reventon - 384.9 bhp per ton, £1,227,000
Lexus LFA Nurburgring - 380.4 bhp per ton, £380,700
The R35 GTR is listed at 313.2 bhp per ton with the Nismo version at 340.7bhp as a comparison, the new BMW Supra has a bhp per ton of just 220.4 as its about half a ton heavier than the MR2 Roadster.
Glad you are pushing forward.
I am sure it will be mental fast.
If my experience of driving around with porsches is anything to go buy the mr2 just isn't stable enough at high speed to compete especially on poor or bumpy road surfaces.
I can carry plenty of speed through the corners and I don't fear 987 cayman S on smooth straights but the combination of high speed and road poor surface means my bottle goes.
Just don't think there is a quality suspension available to solve that problem.
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 29, 2019, 11:45Glad you are pushing forward.
I am sure it will be mental fast.
If my experience of driving around with porsches is anything to go buy the mr2 just isn't stable enough at high speed to compete especially on poor or bumpy road surfaces.
I can carry plenty of speed through the corners and I don't fear 987 cayman S on smooth straights but the combination of high speed and road poor surface means my bottle goes.
Just don't think there is a quality suspension available to solve that problem.
aero maybe? And obviously quality suspension. Unfortunately BC/MeisterR don't count as "quality" when it comes to cars rated at power outputs like what you're seeing. But a good set of springs, Bilstein or Koni dampers.
Lowered, skirts, splitters and flat bottom with diffuser out back. And then, contrary to what we usually try...add compliance and flex to the car. You don't want to bounce off a little stone when shoving 250+ lb/ft torque through the wheels.
Looking forward to seeing this build finally take off. I suspect it'll run lik ean absolule dog without the turbo though :D But all good fun
@shnazzle@m1tchAgreed with compression lowered it won't be too clever without FI.
Mine with 8.5:1 and the rotrex is OK at low rpm but that's with 3L and a boat load of torque helping.
Looking forward to this one taking shape, will be following with interest!
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 29, 2019, 12:31@shnazzle
@m1tch
Agreed with compression lowered it won't be too clever without FI.
Mine with 8.5:1 and the rotrex is OK at low rpm but that's with 3L and a boat load of torque helping.
The Monkey Wrench racing store has the Wiseco pistons for sale with a compression ratio of 8.8:1 which is great if you want to run high boost and would have been the preferred route to avoid detonation if the car was built in the 90s or early 2000s. Very low compression ratios aren't needed anymore due to the better fuel injectors and ECUs that are on the market at the moment. The current Ford Ecoboost engines run at 10:1 compression so are responsive on boost as well as off boost.
The stock 1zz has a compression ratio of 10:1, I was looking to go slightly lower (I could choose my CR as they are custom) but went with 9.5:1 as this would give me slightly more knock resistance but also allow for quicker spool, better drive ability off boost and overall higher power. The cylinder head might need a slight skim coupled with the slight deck when the CSS was put in place will probably bump the CR by a few 0.1 CR points so will probably end up at around 9.7:1 so close to stock. Might also look to run some meth injection as well for any high boost runs to help with knock prevention and the Link also has knock control that can retard the ignition if it start to detect any knock.
Worth noting that I will only be looking to run the car at the 'Ludicrous' setting, eg full boost, full revs at the drag strip. The rest of the time I will be running lower power by dropping the boost so would be running more like 1 bar of boost so would be more manageable on the road (coupled with traction control etc).
This is also why I am doing everything in stages, going from stock power to remapped stock engine to the forged engine that can take slightly more RPM through to boosted. I was looking at superchargers but I like the ability to easily adjust the boost levels and how aggressively the boost builds up etc.
I do currently have a set of Meister R coilovers fitted, I am currently looking into aero options as well as bracing and weight distribution. My initial driving impressions of the new wheels currently fitted is that its far more planted than the stock wheels and tyres - although as mentioned before I might look to swap to a smaller set of wheels to match the lower power levels.
I am sure there will be several iterations of suspension setup and I might end up with adjustable dampers and springs in the end. The damper adjustment on the Meister R coilovers are fairly good in terms of soft vs hard, currently running at I think 14 out of 32 settings and its about the same as the Teins. I did run them fully soft which was really soft compared to the Teins and stock dampers.
I have meister r and like them very much. However you'll never get an mr2 to handle like an elise or cope with speed like a porsche.
Ive mid brace and front strut brace and FL front under brace.
Ive bosch ev14 injectors and ecumaster classic.
Bigger wheels and tyres may make the car more stable at high speed but ruin the way the car feels to me.
Ford and other manufacturers do run very high compression ratios these days but the engine was designed from the outset to run that way and has had millions in R&D spent on it.
May have to pick the brains of Chris gb because his car handled really well with more than double stock bhp.
At the end of the day none of this really matters you'll have something different built to your taste that puts a smile on your face.
Assume you'll be taking plenty of photo's of the build?
Interested in the CSS vs Sleeving, as that's where I'm at at the moment.
Quote from: Gaz2405 on August 29, 2019, 20:35Assume you'll be taking plenty of photo's of the build?
Interested in the CSS vs Sleeving, as that's where I'm at at the moment.
I will be taking many photos soon, its all in bits at the moment without much installed, all I have done so far is check the oil clearances for the main bearings, still need to double check the conrod bearings but the stock crank seems to be fairly new/lightly used.
I think I am probably the first in the UK to get CSS on a 1zz, the way to look at it is that all of the support is needed at the top of the cylinder (and all of the pressure of combustion happens right at the top of the cylinder). With the CSS installed the stock cylinder sleeves can't move around so won't crack and are supported right where the combustion pressures are highest.
With sleeving the sleeves are much stronger but still aren't being supported at all at the top so could still move around under higher loads. There is also the added issues around installing the sleeves, they must be machined and fitted perfectly - not just almost perfectly, perfectly. And there is also the possibility of them dropping as they are inserts unless you upgrade to the Darton MID sleeves.
I had my CSS done at Future motorsport, its usually done on Honda engines - please note that a CSS is NOT a block guard, they have slightly beefier CSS setups that are rated to around 1000bhp on stock sleeves.
The added benefit of running a 1zz is that the bore walls are thicker than on the 2zz, I am also going with stock displacement (well 0.5mm over) meaning I am keeping the vast majority of the cylinder wall thickness vs boring out to 82mm for example.
CSS is also better value than the sleeves, considering the engine is only going to be making around 350-400 I am only going with the CSS, not planning on high boost or nitrous. One of the reasons I went down the 1zz route is the fact that I can still run stock sleeves and the engine can be slightly overbored to fit aftermarket pistons, whereas the 2zz has to be sleeved as the cylinders can't be rebored owing to the MMC coating.
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 29, 2019, 14:17I have meister r and like them very much. However you'll never get an mr2 to handle like an elise or cope with speed like a porsche.
Ive mid brace and front strut brace and FL front under brace.
Ive bosch ev14 injectors and ecumaster classic.
Bigger wheels and tyres may make the car more stable at high speed but ruin the way the car feels to me.
Ford and other manufacturers do run very high compression ratios these days but the engine was designed from the outset to run that way and has had millions in R&D spent on it.
May have to pick the brains of Chris gb because his car handled really well with more than double stock bhp.
At the end of the day none of this really matters you'll have something different built to your taste that puts a smile on your face.
I agree that I won't be able to get the car to handle like a Lotus (which is lighter and has a better suspension design) and it probably won't handle high speed like a Porsche but basically the car will only need to get to 70mph on the road, and up to around 130mph or so on the smooth clean dry prepped drag strip.
I still need to add bracing to various parts of the car, I am gradually working through to chassis in terms of cleaning and protecting parts and making sure that everything is well maintained and sound.
Agree with the bigger wheels and tyres, will only really be running the larger wheels and tyres when I have the power dialled up, will look to run lightweight 15s normally at lower boost for handling and then swap to the wider tyres when I run higher boost for stability and grip.
I agree with the large amount of R&D Ford has put into the engines, I did speak with the owner of Future motorsports who builds and dynos various high power cars, mainly Toyota and Honda. A lot of the Honda engines being built are boosted with a higher compression ratio and have had no issues as long as its tuned correctly.
I am going down the 'built not bought' route, I am doing as much of the work I can myself with parts I feel work well, currently looking at what can be done on the rear of the car as the hard top has a steep rear window angle so spoilers won't really work at the moment.
On the exterior, apart from the wheels and probably front lip and some aero on the back the car will probably be basically stock so more like a sleeper sort of look. I am gradually working on the interior, currently modding OEM parts so I can add in additional switches for functions in the Link ECU such as traction control and launch control.
Will be a fairly long project, will get some photos up soon once I find a way to host them now photobucket doesn't work anymore.
Quick aero update, I have now added a line of vortex generators just above the rear window on the hard top, these were added whilst doing some tuft tests on the rear window. Without them I could see that there was a large separation bubble across the entire window (owing to the steepness of the window). I then added 10 vortex generators across the top of the rear window at 10cm intervals in stages and noted that the flow is now going down the rear window with only a minor separation bubble in the centre - the rest is showing good flow.
I have also reinstalled the carpet and will be looking to get some new OEM floor mats, bring the car back to road trim rather than race trim. I have also fitted my AFR gauge in the ashtray, might look to move it at some point but it means that I can now run basically a stock dash.
I believe the car's weight reduction is probably at around half of the maximum I managed to get out of the car - will calculate the different soon. This will hurt performance slightly but wouldn't be noticable as a road car, considering the increase in power in the future, this shouldn't make much difference but at least I will know how much of a difference it might make if needed.
The Supertech dual valve springs and Moroso sump have now arrived, need to check out the condition of the head in terms of surface etc.
Will look to install the valves etc soon if the head seems to be ok, I can then check to see what the clearance is between the bucket and cam.
I believe I have basically all the parts I now need to build the engine, will still need to get the intake manifold sorted but thats last to be bolted on.
I will next be starting to build a stockpile of fueling parts, will probably run the stock injectors initially but would look to upgrade the pump and run a return line whilst the engine is being swapped over.
I do also need to get the gearbox sent off for the rebuild and upgrade to JUBU gears.
The engine build has now started! Still need to order a clutch, dividerless intake manifold, 'wideband' Knock sensor and get the box sent off for a rebuild but everything is coming along ok.
Here is where I am at:
Main studs are fitted and torqued down so both halves of the block are together, including the liquid gasket between the 2 halves, with the crank and new bearings in place. All clearances have been checked and everything has been cleaned and recleaned, have used some engine assembly oil and the crank spins freely with no binding.
Traum pistons now have their piston rings installed.
Cylinder head is being cleaned up - its got a lot of carbon on the exhaust side but its almost at a stage I am happy with it.
Next on the list is fitting the pistons to the Molnar conrods, I can then fit those to the crankshaft with the new bearings and torque+angle the ARP rod bolts.
After the pistons are in I can then basically bolt everything else down between the 2 parts of the block, add in the stock windage tray and oil pickup tube. I can then fit the Moroso sump and seal up the bottom of the engine - will then fit the main oil seal etc. I also have a brand new OEM oil pump, plus all new OEM chain guides which will be fitted closer to the time when the head is ready.
After the block is all sealed up I can then start working on the cylinder head more, will fit the Supertech valvetrain and then the cams to start working out which shim buckets I need vs the ones I currently have.
Good work sound like its coming on nicely :)
Great progress!
A question tho, how hard is working on the engine? Im thinking if I should do some work myself or I should give it to a shop. Pros - somebody who has seen an engine will work on it, cons - way too expensive and in general wont do very good job as most of the guys are fixing what you tell them to. Ill be replacing some seals and gaskets.
Quote from: Nvy on February 3, 2020, 09:49Great progress!
A question tho, how hard is working on the engine? Im thinking if I should do some work myself or I should give it to a shop. Pros - somebody who has seen an engine will work on it, cons - way too expensive and in general wont do very good job as most of the guys are fixing what you tell them to. Ill be replacing some seals and gaskets.
This is the first engine I have ever built, you have to be very careful in terms of making sure everything is clean coupled with the clearances have to be within spec. Also if you aren't careful you can mess up something and need to replace it so for some parts its fine to work on whereas for other parts its ok to do if you are very careful but might require some specialist tools.
Worth noting that the most complex part of the engine is probably the cylinder head - a lot of parts under tension, the main block is basically just a bucket that holds a spinning crank with rods and pistons - nothing really complex but have critical dimensions and bolts need to be torqued correctly.
I have had the machine shop do some work on my setup:
CSS block upgrade
Hone of bores
Piston ring gapping (actually cheaper for them to do it vs my buy the tool)
Everything else I am doing myself but checking all measurements and taking my time, you can find the service manual online and its step by step.
Just working on the cylinder head removing carbon, almost there, I have booked a week off in a couple of weeks time where I plan to assemble most of the engine, should have the main block together with sump etc and the cylinder head together, will then start measuring bucket to cam clearances next to see if I need different buckets.
Come on mitch we allllllll want pictures 😂
Sounds like it's going well anyhow.
Quote from: Gaz2405 on February 9, 2020, 18:24Come on mitch we allllllll want pictures 😂
Sounds like it's going well anyhow.
Not really a huge amount to see apart from some blocks of metal with some bolts sticking out of them lol will post up some photos once I get a few more parts together :)
Slight issue come across last night, wristpins are too long for the pistons - looks like the pins I have with the pistons are correct on the spec sheet but too long for the custom pistons. I spoke with the engineering shop that ordered up the Traum pistons and they are sorting it - new pins are already on their way free of charge.
I was starting to fit the wirelocs to the pistons but instead I took a bit of time to quickly smooth out the exhaust ports - will be looking to keep the intake runners stock but polish up the exhaust runners. Managed to removed the casting marks etc within the exhaust runners yesterday, I am keeping away from any of the bowl or other turns as I can really mess them up if not careful.
I am taking the gearbox to be upgraded with JUBU gears on Monday over to Rogue motorsports, I am going to look to upgrade the cylinder head this coming week as well with the full supertech valvetrain as I have now ported the exhaust runners.
Will then fit the cams to the head and check to see how many more buckets I am going to be needing!
Also plan to wire in the switches for launch control etc to the ECU as well, might also be able to do some paint correction if the weather holds!
Pistons and rods are assembled, just ordered a tapered piston ring compressor as I tried the old ratchet type and was concerned it might break a ring etc.
Have also lapped the valves into the head and removed the old oil stem seals and fitted new ones, next step with the head is fitting the valve springs to then be able to check the clearances under the cams etc.
I am hoping to get the pistons in as soon as the taper ring compressor arrives, I can then refit the oil pickup, baffle plate and seal up the bottom end and put the block to one side.
New wheels and tyres have also been fitted, went with a set of JR3 15x7 all round running the new Toyo TR1 195/50/15 on the front, 225/50/15 on the rear. The tyres are 20mm narrower both front and back from the Silverstone performance 17" rims I was running, ride is quieter and more confortable, currently set to 32psi but will look to experiment as it doesn't feel quite as planted.
Good work :) those tapered ring compressors are good we recently got one at work for the old Aston engines and once you get hang of it seems much easier than tightening up the old clamp type.
Hope those TR1 are better than old T1R which were awful floaty tyres, ive seen much better reports on the R1 so hopefully once scrubbed in will be much better, drop your front pressure to 26-28psi though as 32 is too high for front on these cars which wont be helping.
Quote from: thetyrant on March 3, 2020, 08:13Good work :) those tapered ring compressors are good we recently got one at work for the old Aston engines and once you get hang of it seems much easier than tightening up the old clamp type.
Hope those TR1 are better than old T1R which were awful floaty tyres, ive seen much better reports on the R1 so hopefully once scrubbed in will be much better, drop your front pressure to 26-28psi though as 32 is too high for front on these cars which wont be helping.
Yeah I tried to fit one of the pistons with the clamping sort but it didn't really work and didn't want to damage the rings as they were filed to fit etc - although not cheap the taper ring compression would be cheaper than if I were to break a set of rings and need to get new rings, ring file and the time etc and then still have a possibility to break the rings.
The TR1 seem to be getting some better reviews, they won't be perfect in the wet but drove the car to and from work yesterday in the rain and then dry roads on the way home and it was fine.
Will look to play around with pressures, only fitted the alloys over the weekend so was taking it steady owing to the fact they were new tyres not scrubbed in plus the need to make sure that the wheels were retorqued after a few miles etc.
Will try the OEM spect of 26psi front and 32psi rear, only set them to 32psi so I could just get some miles on the car - will then see how that feels.
Pistons are now in the block, just need to torque up the conrod bolts after I reclean the bolts and apply the specific grease to them to ensure proper torque etc. Took a bit of time to get everything right as the conrod bearings are indexed to the direction of the bearing in the block, meaning that the conrods need to be indexed to the piston and then the piston indexed to the block to have the intake on the correct side etc.
The gearbox has also been fully rebuilt and will be collecting that hopefully next week, next on the list for the block is the oil pickup, windage tray, other bolts between the block halves then rear main seal and sump to seal up the bottom end of the engine.
The dividerless OEM manifold has arrived in the UK, just need to pay customs on it etc but at least its almost here, still need to buy a clutch but will probably go with a competition clutch stage 3 as it should be able to hold the upper levels of torque (just) but be far more drivable than a stage 4.
Also need to buy a Bosch doughnut knock sensor (basically a wideband knock sensor) to fit to the block whilst its out as its impossible to get to with it in the car, will probably need to swap over the connector on the stock loom.
Conrods are now torqued and angled, just need to fit the oil pickup tube and can then seal up the bottom end with the Moroso sump.
Next on the list is fitting the valves to the cylinder head, can then check the clearance with the cam and valve to see if I have the buckets I need or if I need to swap more around - I have a used set coming so hopefully the 2 sets of buckets will make 1 good set!
All valves are now in the head with the Supertech dual springs and valves, have put the buckets and Piper stage 2 FI cams in to check clearances and they are far too large. I have 32 buckets to chose from but might have to use the bucket bank - I am going to check with Piper cams to check what clearance they would run them at but I have a feeling I am going to need replacement buckets.
Plan to get myself a 0-25mm micrometer (only have a 25-50mm) to check every single bucket for size (as the OEM bucket number won't be accurate anymore due to wear).
I do however know that the 2JZ and 3S engines (and others) use the 1zz buckets as upgrades as they are solid, whereas the other engines run a shimmed bucket so I could look to convert over to shimmed buckets or see if I can get lash caps from supertech.
Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 07:54All valves are now in the head with the Supertech dual springs and valves, have put the buckets and Piper stage 2 FI cams in to check clearances and they are far too large. I have 32 buckets to chose from but might have to use the bucket bank - I am going to check with Piper cams to check what clearance they would run them at but I have a feeling I am going to need replacement buckets.
Plan to get myself a 0-25mm micrometer (only have a 25-50mm) to check every single bucket for size (as the OEM bucket number won't be accurate anymore due to wear).
I do however know that the 2JZ and 3S engines (and others) use the 1zz buckets as upgrades as they are solid, whereas the other engines run a shimmed bucket so I could look to convert over to shimmed buckets or see if I can get lash caps from supertech.
What size are our Mazda counterpart's buckets? I believe they use shims.
But, as you say, people switch to 1zz buckets and coilpacks with massive power so I wouldn't worry about it.
As for the clearance, ask @Call the midlife what he's running on his Stg2 non-FI.
Quote from: shnazzle on April 3, 2020, 08:26Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 07:54All valves are now in the head with the Supertech dual springs and valves, have put the buckets and Piper stage 2 FI cams in to check clearances and they are far too large. I have 32 buckets to chose from but might have to use the bucket bank - I am going to check with Piper cams to check what clearance they would run them at but I have a feeling I am going to need replacement buckets.
Plan to get myself a 0-25mm micrometer (only have a 25-50mm) to check every single bucket for size (as the OEM bucket number won't be accurate anymore due to wear).
I do however know that the 2JZ and 3S engines (and others) use the 1zz buckets as upgrades as they are solid, whereas the other engines run a shimmed bucket so I could look to convert over to shimmed buckets or see if I can get lash caps from supertech.
What size are our Mazda counterpart's buckets? I believe they use shims.
But, as you say, people switch to 1zz buckets and coilpacks with massive power so I wouldn't worry about it.
As for the clearance, ask @Call the midlife what he's running on his Stg2 non-FI.
Looking at the Supertech site as they do cam followers as well, the same cam follower bucket can be fitted to:
Toyota 2JZ / 3SGTE / 1ZZ / Scion/ Tacomo 2RZ-3RZ /RB26
So it looks like I have a fair range of choices of engine to take them from, will probably be simpler to go with the 1zz shimless though. Might just move all of the buckets on the intake side over to the exhaust side which might sort that out and then need to get other buckets for the intake side.
Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 08:35Quote from: shnazzle on April 3, 2020, 08:26Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 07:54All valves are now in the head with the Supertech dual springs and valves, have put the buckets and Piper stage 2 FI cams in to check clearances and they are far too large. I have 32 buckets to chose from but might have to use the bucket bank - I am going to check with Piper cams to check what clearance they would run them at but I have a feeling I am going to need replacement buckets.
Plan to get myself a 0-25mm micrometer (only have a 25-50mm) to check every single bucket for size (as the OEM bucket number won't be accurate anymore due to wear).
I do however know that the 2JZ and 3S engines (and others) use the 1zz buckets as upgrades as they are solid, whereas the other engines run a shimmed bucket so I could look to convert over to shimmed buckets or see if I can get lash caps from supertech.
What size are our Mazda counterpart's buckets? I believe they use shims.
But, as you say, people switch to 1zz buckets and coilpacks with massive power so I wouldn't worry about it.
As for the clearance, ask @Call the midlife what he's running on his Stg2 non-FI.
Looking at the Supertech site as they do cam followers as well, the same cam follower bucket can be fitted to:
Toyota 2JZ / 3SGTE / 1ZZ / Scion/ Tacomo 2RZ-3RZ /RB26
So it looks like I have a fair range of choices of engine to take them from, will probably be simpler to go with the 1zz shimless though. Might just move all of the buckets on the intake side over to the exhaust side which might sort that out and then need to get other buckets for the intake side.
You need to be a hell of a lot more precise than that. So you're right, it's a bucket-bank deal with full valve clearance job. Definitely do not just chuck the buckets around and hope for the best. A bit loose is one thing. Too tight can do some damage. Especially seeing as what you're intending to do with this poor block :)
Quote from: shnazzle on April 3, 2020, 09:07Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 08:35Quote from: shnazzle on April 3, 2020, 08:26Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 07:54All valves are now in the head with the Supertech dual springs and valves, have put the buckets and Piper stage 2 FI cams in to check clearances and they are far too large. I have 32 buckets to chose from but might have to use the bucket bank - I am going to check with Piper cams to check what clearance they would run them at but I have a feeling I am going to need replacement buckets.
Plan to get myself a 0-25mm micrometer (only have a 25-50mm) to check every single bucket for size (as the OEM bucket number won't be accurate anymore due to wear).
I do however know that the 2JZ and 3S engines (and others) use the 1zz buckets as upgrades as they are solid, whereas the other engines run a shimmed bucket so I could look to convert over to shimmed buckets or see if I can get lash caps from supertech.
What size are our Mazda counterpart's buckets? I believe they use shims.
But, as you say, people switch to 1zz buckets and coilpacks with massive power so I wouldn't worry about it.
As for the clearance, ask @Call the midlife what he's running on his Stg2 non-FI.
Looking at the Supertech site as they do cam followers as well, the same cam follower bucket can be fitted to:
Toyota 2JZ / 3SGTE / 1ZZ / Scion/ Tacomo 2RZ-3RZ /RB26
So it looks like I have a fair range of choices of engine to take them from, will probably be simpler to go with the 1zz shimless though. Might just move all of the buckets on the intake side over to the exhaust side which might sort that out and then need to get other buckets for the intake side.
You need to be a hell of a lot more precise than that. So you're right, it's a bucket-bank deal with full valve clearance job. Definitely do not just chuck the buckets around and hope for the best. A bit loose is one thing. Too tight can do some damage. Especially seeing as what you're intending to do with this poor block :)
I have just ordered another micrometer, will be checking to see the actual buckets I have now that they are slightly worn - if I have say a 40 bucket but its worn to a 30 bucket, I could sort it out be getting a 50 bucket. Might also get a few other feeler gauges, I have a set of 10 including a 0.05mm feeler, was slightly disheartened when I got out the 0.3mm feeler gauge (maximum stock on the intake side) and it just slid in without issue.
I specifically grabbed all of the higher bucket sizes I had (low 40 buckets) and put them in the intake side as I knew that the clearance needed to be tighter on the intake. As those are out of spec they might work much better on the exhaust side which means I would need new buckets on the intake side and used buckets on the exhaust side.
I do need to check with Piper cams though as they might ask for additional clearance due to the cam profile vs lower lift stock.
We've already had some discussion on the book of faceless about the issues but as discussed you can't really advance your build now until you know the Piper clearances, the Crowers were quite different to standard to allow for the fatter lobes.
It's a long, painstaking process, starting from scratch but once you know all your starting point gaps and sizes of all your available buckets it just comes down to simple mathematics.
Starting gap, size of current bucket, value required to hit the clearance requirement.
You've got an amount of tolerance but bear in mind the nearer (tighter) the better as they'll all settle in a bit once you're up and running.
Remember if you're not measuring the gap at the sweet spot it will make a lot of difference to your results also.
Good luck.👍🏻
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 3, 2020, 09:42We've already had some discussion on the book of faceless about the issues but as discussed you can't really advance your build now until you know the Piper clearances, the Crowers were quite different to standard to allow for the fatter lobes.
It's a long, painstaking process, starting from scratch but once you know all your starting point gaps and sizes of all your available buckets it just comes down to simple mathematics.
Starting gap, size of current bucket, value required to hit the clearance requirement.
You've got an amount of tolerance but bear in mind the nearer (tighter) the better as they'll all settle in a bit once you're up and running.
Remember if you're not measuring the gap at the sweet spot it will make a lot of difference to your results also.
Good luck.👍🏻
Indeed, will wait on what Piper cams come back with - might be perfectly in spec for their cams but just wanted to gauge what I have at the moment. Will aim to get the clearance on the tighter side of centre as everything will start to wear in and will also mean there will be a longer interval before they are out of spec as well - shame the tip of the valve wasn't 0.2mm longer!
I will make a note as to which buckets I have already fitted so that once I get that smaller micrometer I can see what I have in the separator tray in terms of other buckets. I think the highest bucket number I have is something like a 57, I haven't fitted that, gone with '40' to '46' buckets on the intake side - good news is that the clearances seem fairly even so I am guessing the buckets are evenly worn and the camshaft is torqued down correctly - no odd high clearances. Its going to be a long process but that's ok, i'm not rushing this at all :)
Next on the list of the build is to seal up the Moroso pan, torque the oil heat exchanger and filter bolt down and then probably fit the main oil seal and oil pump (with new OEM gasket). I think I actually have 4 oil pumps now, 2 used ones and I think 1 aftermarket new and one OEM new - can you guess which one I will be fitted?
Can also prep a few other parts such as the rocker cover for paint, fit the engine deck dowel pins and clean up any engine covers whilst I wait for a few bits.
I might also pull the front bumper off the car and fit a front lip, coupled with swapping out the front foglights - driver side one has failed at some point and the coating has come off the inside. I have 2 new foglights to fit and am covering them in yellow lens film for a more JDM look (can easily remove if needed).
The stock ECU is also plugged back in ready for an MOT at some point, less of a faff to run the stock ECU for emissions than moving around wideband O2 sensors. The MOT takes the lambda reading post cat, my wideband is pre cat so the emissions in terms of HC and CO are fine but the lambda is off. The stock ECU runs the engine rich which then leans out after the cat for a lambda of 1 - my ECU reads pre cat meaning that its perfect at the engine but lean at the exhaust tip.
Also have my fully upgraded gearbox ready for collection from Rogue motorsports when they reopen - JUBU upgraded 3rd and 4th, one syncho was slightly worn but was replaced, internal plates have also been strengthened slightly - should be able to hold the torque now.
All sounds good, just remember to turn the shafts in situ with the spanner, constantly stripping the shafts out just to rotate them to check gaps will wear your cap bolts out and you're not guaranteed to be seating the lobe bases in the right position as they move slightly when you torque the caps up.
If the valvetrain is assembled at the moment then take a fresh set of measurements by turning the shafts and making sure the buckets are moving with the springs before measuring.
Then when you get your new micrometer strip out any buckets not in spec and measure them all with the same micrometer, using the same method.
The instructions on the micrometer will probably say to measure against the ratchet setting, technically true but the buckets in the club bank (if indeed there is a club bank left anymore) are measured a bit tighter than that, to first resistance, so probably better to use that method.
Turning those springs by hand on the bench isn't much of a laugh but it's the only way, just keep a bare minimum of oil on the faces to avoid gouging and you'll be sweet.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 3, 2020, 10:41All sounds good, just remember to turn the shafts in situ with the spanner, constantly stripping the shafts out just to rotate them to check gaps will wear your cap bolts out and you're not guaranteed to be seating the lobe bases in the right position as they move slightly when you torque the caps up.
If the valvetrain is assembled at the moment then take a fresh set of measurements by turning the shafts and making sure the buckets are moving with the springs before measuring.
Then when you get your new micrometer strip out any buckets not in spec and measure them all with the same micrometer, using the same method.
The instructions on the micrometer will probably say to measure against the ratchet setting, technically true but the buckets in the club bank (if indeed there is a club bank left anymore) are measured a bit tighter than that, to first resistance, so probably better to use that method.
Turning those springs by hand on the bench isn't much of a laugh but it's the only way, just keep a bare minimum of oil on the faces to avoid gouging and you'll be sweet.
Will try that at lunch, not got the sprockets on the camshafts but noticed the hex part way along the shaft last night - will rotate the camshafts a bit and see if the clearances change. Agree with not really wanting to keep retorquing the bolts!
You'll have to disassemble it enough times as it is to swap the buckets around etc but just try and avoid unnecessary times.
Maybe use your old bolts for as long as they keep reaching torque, you're only looking at around 12-20 Nm across the different ones if I remember right?
Don't forget you'll have to take the cams out to refit the head to the block also so leave all your final lubing until then.
I forgot that bit and that's how I ended up wrongly fitting two buckets in the end as they'd stuck to the shafts with the assembly lube and pulled out.
And I lazily put them back where I thought they'd come from without actually checking.
Quote from: m1tch on April 3, 2020, 11:21Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 3, 2020, 10:41All sounds good, just remember to turn the shafts in situ with the spanner, constantly stripping the shafts out just to rotate them to check gaps will wear your cap bolts out and you're not guaranteed to be seating the lobe bases in the right position as they move slightly when you torque the caps up.
If the valvetrain is assembled at the moment then take a fresh set of measurements by turning the shafts and making sure the buckets are moving with the springs before measuring.
Then when you get your new micrometer strip out any buckets not in spec and measure them all with the same micrometer, using the same method.
The instructions on the micrometer will probably say to measure against the ratchet setting, technically true but the buckets in the club bank (if indeed there is a club bank left anymore) are measured a bit tighter than that, to first resistance, so probably better to use that method.
Turning those springs by hand on the bench isn't much of a laugh but it's the only way, just keep a bare minimum of oil on the faces to avoid gouging and you'll be sweet.
Will try that at lunch, not got the sprockets on the camshafts but noticed the hex part way along the shaft last night - will rotate the camshafts a bit and see if the clearances change. Agree with not really wanting to keep retorquing the bolts!
For measuring for fit, you don't need to torque the bolts. Just nip them up. The extra torque is to take the stress of a running engine.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 3, 2020, 13:16You'll have to disassemble it enough times as it is to swap the buckets around etc but just try and avoid unnecessary times.
Maybe use your old bolts for as long as they keep reaching torque, you're only looking at around 12-20 Nm across the different ones if I remember right?
Don't forget you'll have to take the cams out to refit the head to the block also so leave all your final lubing until then.
I forgot that bit and that's how I ended up wrongly fitting two buckets in the end as they'd stuck to the shafts with the assembly lube and pulled out.
And I lazily put them back where I thought they'd come from without actually checking.
The number 1 bearing is 23NM with the others at 13NM, I am just using normal engine oil at the moment but will be using some assembly lubricant as I have done on the rest of the engine once everything is sorted - noticed the head stud holes below the cams earlier!
Just gone out and turned the cams over, didn't take a huge amount of force and everything moved smoothly, might look to get a spare set of bolts if needed at a later date but they all seem to be ok at the moment - chased all the threads as well so I know they are clean and will be correctly to spec.
Will be numbering all of them when I start working out clearances as I did with all the valves - at least those are in now :D
I am awaiting the cam specs from Piper cams, will see what I need to aim for - will measure up the gap currently with the buckets I have at the moment, will then measure the bucket spec when they come out so I don't think I will need to remove them many more times as I should be able to work out what I need to order.
If I need a huge number I might look to convert over to a shimmed design but I *think* I might be able to use at least some of them, probably on the exhaust side - will see how it pans out.
My 0-25mm micrometer has arrived and I have now measured all of the buckets not fitted to the cylinder head, it would seem that a used bucket works out at around 2 sizes smaller than marked - I have 2 '52' buckets which are now in the '50' bucket size range.
I also noticed a few really worn buckets where I can tell the oiling wasn't 100% perfect and so these are heavily worn - think one of the '48' buckets are now something like a '40' bucket due to the wear.
Still waiting back from Piper cams but plan now is:
Measure current clearance with buckets fitted and make a note of which valve
Remove current buckets
Measure current buckets
Work out clearance needed
Check to see which buckets would work
I have a feeling that out of all of the buckets I should be able to sort out the exhaust side, I have a feeling I might need 8 new buckets for the intake side though.
Quote from: m1tch on April 7, 2020, 10:46My 0-25mm micrometer has arrived and I have now measured all of the buckets not fitted to the cylinder head, it would seem that a used bucket works out at around 2 sizes smaller than marked - I have 2 '52' buckets which are now in the '50' bucket size range.
I also noticed a few really worn buckets where I can tell the oiling wasn't 100% perfect and so these are heavily worn - think one of the '48' buckets are now something like a '40' bucket due to the wear.
Still waiting back from Piper cams but plan now is:
Measure current clearance with buckets fitted and make a note of which valve
Remove current buckets
Measure current buckets
Work out clearance needed
Check to see which buckets would work
I have a feeling that out of all of the buckets I should be able to sort out the exhaust side, I have a feeling I might need 8 new buckets for the intake side though.
Have a look at Carolyn's valve clearance job How To in the how to section. Instead of trying to figure it out :)
But the above is indeed the general process.
Here are a few updated photos of the project so far:
Fitted some vortex generators after doing some tuft testing:
(https://i.imgur.com/RjF9dhe.jpg)
Small lip spoiler:
(https://i.imgur.com/tFvT8bo.jpg)
This is the car with the Silverstone Performance 17s on:
(https://i.imgur.com//dFYpXdp.jpg)
Have now swapped to a set of JR3 15x7 rims at the moment though:
(https://i.imgur.com/RrTqJga.jpg)
Interior handles have been blacked out:
(https://i.imgur.com/f5cNYDK.jpg)
And at the side of the radio - you can also see the AFR gauge there:
(https://i.imgur.com/XYhQBm0.jpg)
I also swapped over to some 'JDM' yellow foglights (the OEM ones had corroded badly so needed to be swapped:
(https://i.imgur.com/h5jFBjg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OjW0AbZ.jpg)
Engine work, Molnar rod, Traum piston:
(https://i.imgur.com/7rLVu0L.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VG9N9WY.jpg)
CSS block with pistons:
(https://i.imgur.com//RZAPyyu.jpg)
Supertech valvetrain being fitted
(https://i.imgur.com/FTtkACa.jpg)
Working out clearances
(https://i.imgur.com/wVbxZb0.jpg)
Yeah for pictures 😂
Good work!
Sending my block of to future Motor Sports next month for dry sleeves and a short block build.
Quote from: Gaz2405 on May 18, 2020, 12:19Yeah for pictures 😂
Good work!
Sending my block of to future Motor Sports next month for dry sleeves and a short block build.
My CSS was done by Futuremotorsports, went with the CSS route as I didn't need to run more than 600bhp through the block and only going with a 0.5mm overbore so to 79.5mm rather than a big bore 82mm build, think they offer a 1000bhp CSS options for some of the Honda builds. I did look at Darton sleeves but didn't go with them as the sleeves still aren't supported at the top where all the cylinder pressure is coupled with the fact they could drop.
Thanks to
@Carolyn and the bucket bank I have managed to clearance a stock camshaft to the Supertech valvetrain:
(https://i.imgur.com/l21XFur.jpg)
I still need to order a clutch and Bosch doughnut knock sensor plus pick up the gearbox from Rogue motorsports but I think the next step is finishing putting together the block so next stages would be:
Seal up the Moroso sump
ARP headstuds
Fit dowels into deck surface
Head gasket on
Head torqued down
Cams in and torqued (will recheck the clearances again at this point)
Rear main seal in
Oil pump on and torqued
Timing chain guides fitted
Timing chain fitted
Check timing
I might look to get a new crank pulley, will see how the ones I currently have are looking, I am also tempted to see if I can partly prime the oil system, might be able to do that by pumping oil through the head or maybe the block before the head goes on.
I might leave off fitting the flywheel for a bit - I have ARP bolts for it but don't see a reason to add additional weight until the gearbox arrives. I have a competition lightweight flywheel though so its not too bad!
Slight update on this, I have ordered some Radium engineering fuel rail parts as I going with a return system, this will be easier to fit when the engine comes out. I have some vaseline I might use to pack the oil pump to ensure that the engine primes the oil ok on start up. I have however also bought a 1/8 BSPT barbed fitting which will go into the oil pressure switch threaded hole and I plan to prime the engine a bit that way as well once things are together.
I have ordered some Loctite to add to the Moroso studs (as per instructions) so need to wait for that to arrive before I can put the sump on.
MOT is booked for 1st July so I might start taking a few things apart after that date and also have a date to aim for.
Oil pump is on and torqued, Moroso sump is on, sealed and torqued, just started to fit the head:
(https://i.imgur.com/diFPIlB.jpg)
Really like what you're doing so far.
Keep at it. Good job
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2020, 17:51Really like what you're doing so far.
Keep at it. Good job
Its slowly getting there, first engine I have ever built so making sure everything is clean and torqued up correctly, will look to fit the head tomorrow I think, then I can drop the cams in and perhaps get the timing chain on.
Head is now torqued down, cams are in and torqued, quickly bolted on some spare intake and exhaust manifolds onto the engine to keep things safe:
(https://i.imgur.com/djGdutx.jpg)
Woah! What's that intake and exhaust mani!?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 8, 2020, 20:40Woah! What's that intake and exhaust mani!?
That is an OEM 1zz metal intake manifold and an unknown full race equal length exhaust manifold I had on the shelf, its not got any O2 sensor bungs in the runners so I am guessing it would only work with aftermarket ECUs that take readings pre cat rather than on the manifold.
Ironically I will probably be running neither manifold as this engine will only be run NA during break in so will probably just bolt on my current exhaust, I have a dividerless OEM plastic intake manifold instead of the stock metal one.
Will probably look to fit the timing chain etc tonight and check everything turns over ok, also fit the rear main seal, crank is freely spinning and I have checked the clearances on the cam lobes I can get to so far but will give it a few revolutions to make sure everything has settled.
Items still needed to complete the build:
Collect gearbox from Rogue motorsports
Clutch - probably the competition clutch stage 3
Clutch bearing (I can't remember if I bought a new one or not!)
Viton seal for the chain tensioner - I have an OEM one and currently have a viton seal on my current running engine
Bosch doughnut knock sensor - need to check if I need to get a harness adaptor to use the stock loom
I also have a VMS lightweight pulley coming which I may or may not fit - I have a new OEM one anyway.
I have a radium fuel rail arriving soon, will initially run the stock injectors but need to also order some AN fittings, lines, fuel pump and FPR to run a return system. I also purchased the Radium fuel top hat adaptor so it converts the top of the fuel hat to AN6 I think rather than the push connectors.
Minor updates:
Collecting the gearbox from Rogue motorsports tomorrow
Radium rail and top hat adaptor has arrived
Ordered AN6 and AN8 fittings for the rail (AN6 supply, AN8 return)
Ordered AN8 bulkhead adaptor to attach to the top hat on the fuel unit
Bolts for the water pump will arrive soon (missing them so can't fit the front timing cover)
Will probably order a DW320 pump soon, plus some fuel line and an FPR
MOT is booked in for the 1st July so will be spending 30th June checking and adjusting the handbrake! Currently running the stock ECU at the moment.
Still deciding on clutch, either a Competition clutch stage 3 or a Spec clutch stage 3+.
Timing cover and water pump is now on, will be using parts from my current engine such as the starter motor, alternator etc as they are known good items.
I have freed off the handbrake cables as the MOT is on Wednesday, will do some final checks tomorrow to make sure its 100% ok.
I still have a few tools to arrive and a few parts to order still, need to get a Bosch knock sensor stud to be able to fit that, however once the car is MOTed I can start unbolting some items such as the battery, intake system, soaking/loosening bolts, exhaust removal etc.
I plan to get one of those engine bay hoists, I do have an engine crane as well but might be hand to have one of the engine bay hoists to slowly lower everything down when the time comes.
Spec Stage 3+ clutch has been ordered, will be fitting the clutch and flywheel just before the engine goes in to keep the weight down of the engine in the garage as I will still need to move the engine outside when the time comes so will bolt on the flywheel, clutch and gearbox when things are outside to then lift it into the bay.
I have ordered some shielded wire for the knock sensor, will get the plug wired in as soon as that arrives, just waiting on a few bits at the moment.
Plan will also be to run the stock fuel system at the moment, gives me more time to pull together all of the other items, plan to run the engine on the stock ECU as well - will basically be swapping everything over as like for like as I can get to the fuel system and exhaust etc with the engine in unlike things such as the knock sensor or intake manifold.
Getting closer good work, bet your looking forward to getting it in the car and fired up ? :)
Quote from: thetyrant on June 29, 2020, 07:45Getting closer good work, bet your looking forward to getting it in the car and fired up ? :)
I think its more the case of knowing that I have run out of things that I need to get for it! Typically I have a set of injector O rings locked away at work so will need to retrieve those.
Hopefully after the MOT on Wednesday I can start unbolting things to a point where it will be a lot easier when I do set aside time to swap the engine once the other parts arrive as some parts on the current engine will need to be swapped over to the new engine.
I can easily:
Remove the battery and tray
Remove induction system
Remove rear ARB
Remove engine bay cross brace
Loosen engine mount bolts
Loosen subframe bolts
Remove throttlebody
Remove exhaust manifold
Remove ignition system
Remove aux belt tensioner
Remove alternator (maybe)
Remove/tuck away MAP sensor
Unplug all O2 sensors
Remove and swap over fuel rail
I can do all of these tasks without really taking any of the bodywork off or need to disable the gear linkages etc at this point - handbrake is fine but sill keep it in gear so will remove the gear linkage last minute.
I know there are a few electrical points that I need to remove as well, and I do have a spare engine loom so will gradually add that onto the current engine.
Car has just failed its MOT - it fails every year so not surprise, however this time the emissions and hand brake were fine, it was a small bit of rust on the rear subframe.
Project is currently paused whilst I swap out the subframe - basically I need to change out the subframe to the new one, bolt it all together, drive it to the MOT centre for them to go "yeah that looks ok" to then drive back home and unbolt it all again to drop the engine!
I have been battling bolts so far but current progress is:
4 main subframe bolts loose
2 bolts holding the brake lines are loose (one snapped)
2 bolts holding the bracing are loose
ARB bolts are loose (upgraded to a whiteline one a while back so bolts came out easily!)
2 of the 4 bolts of the engine mount are loose although it seems impossible to get to the other bolts as the bracket it in the way!
This morning I have managed to loosen off the passenger side cam bolt and the lower arm bolt - the lower arm bolt seems to spin freely within the bushing so hopefully won't get stuck.
Will carry on with the driver side later!
I have also ordered a few high tensile M12 bolts in case I need to replace the lower arm ones but one has loosened off ok.
Right, replacement subframe is now in:
(https://i.imgur.com/dFYux8h.jpg)
Its all MOTed again for another 393 days, so have started to get ready for the engine swap, still awaiting the clutch but can at least soak bolts and maybe drop the engine etc. Taking many photos! I think the battery has leaked previously as its the battery tray is the only thing that is rust in the engine bay. Will also clean everything in there as well with the engine out, the original engine is on 179k miles and looks to have had an oil leak at some point.
(https://i.imgur.com/CsbPbP9.jpg)
Will try and get the following done this weekend:
Remove the earth wires
Battery tray out
Rest of the exhaust removed (manifold came off fine)
Soak all engine mount bolts
Attempt to remove the clutch slave cylinder from the gearbox (or at least loosen the bolts) although it seems impossible to get to!
Fuel rail out and fitted to the new engine (will start with the stock one initially)
(https://i.imgur.com/DkF34wJ.jpg)
Was this the low-comp block that you're going to run for a bit?
Nice job on subframe/mot etc :D now the fun begins.
Getting slave cylinder off engine/box isnt as bad as it first looks, 2 x 10mm bolts you can get at from underneath reaching around engine mount to remove it, leave all hydraulics connected as they are a bugger to bleed up, hose is clipped onto bracket part of front engine mount and you can either cut a slot to get it out or leave it on, i chose to leave it attached and removed the bracket part from gearbox and tied it and slave up under car out the way, fairly straightforward just watch for engine rocking and trapping your arm if you have already removed the rear mount to crossmember!
Here is how i left clutch slave and bracket etc...
clutchslave.jpg
Quote from: thetyrant on July 4, 2020, 11:59Nice job on subframe/mot etc :D now the fun begins.
Getting slave cylinder off engine/box isnt as bad as it first looks, 2 x 10mm bolts you can get at from underneath reaching around engine mount to remove it, leave all hydraulics connected as they are a bugger to bleed up, hose is clipped onto bracket part of front engine mount and you can either cut a slot to get it out or leave it on, i chose to leave it attached and removed the bracket part from gearbox and tied it and slave up under car out the way, fairly straightforward just watch for engine rocking and trapping your arm if you have already removed the rear mount to crossmember!
Here is how i left clutch slave and bracket etc...
clutchslave.jpg
Thanks for that, I need to get under the car at some point soon anyway to have enough clearance to drop the manifold and cat (or get to the 3 manifold to cat bolts). Was planning to keep the slave cylinder attached to the lines and pull it off the box and tuck it out the way.
Have no clue how to get that driver side engine mount bolt off though, its stuck on there solid and there isn't really any room to get a breaker bar under there as there is an engine in the way! The passenger side mount and subframe to engine mount is loose which is good, just need to soak the rear one when I get under there.
Currently battling with trying to get the fuel rail off, I have the push connector tool things but they can't be used as there is a notch on the fuel rail pipe so it doesn't really slide onto connector - might just cut it and convert over to the Radium rail but a deadhead system, although would be easier if I could get that fuel rail off!!
Driver side engine mount you undo the 3 x 14mm nuts on underside so it can drop down away from the mount, which i left connected to car body :)
Fuel rail is a bugger to release and after a tip form Dick Sloan i used a cut up nozzle from a tube of silcone to get it to release but was a real fiddle getting sizing right, lot of trial and error and pushing and pulling at fuel rail until it finally just popped off, im hoping it goes better when i swap the original engine back in, if not can always just remove fuel rail from head and leave it connected to feed pipe.
Keep up the good work, ive been putting my pistons with new rings in this morning, now time to get valves back in head then i can hopefully mate the 2 back together :D
You unclip the fuel rail hose where it connects to the piping coming from the tank. There's a white clip you have to squeeze. Then the fuel rail is free.
I'd take the whole engine mount out of the car - three 10mm nuts under the aluminium bracket and three bolts that hold the 'legs' to the car. Gives you much more working room. Also makes putting the engine back a lot easier.
Quote from: thetyrant on July 4, 2020, 13:27Driver side engine mount you undo the 3 x 14mm nuts on underside so it can drop down away from the mount, which i left connected to car body :)
Fuel rail is a bugger to release and after a tip form Dick Sloan i used a cut up nozzle from a tube of silcone to get it to release but was a real fiddle getting sizing right, lot of trial and error and pushing and pulling at fuel rail until it finally just popped off, im hoping it goes better when i swap the original engine back in, if not can always just remove fuel rail from head and leave it connected to feed pipe.
Keep up the good work, ive been putting my pistons with new rings in this morning, now time to get valves back in head then i can hopefully mate the 2 back together :D
Managed to get the connection to the fuel rail off at last, actually harder than removing some of the bolts for the subframe!
I think I am going to remove the bolts from under the car instead - might still see if I can make the top bolt budge but I guess you need to remove all of that mount to be able to drop it through the engine bay!
I am going to fit my Radium rail with the stock injectors (I have a full seal rebuild kit) and will then run it as a deadhead system running AN6 fittings on the rail and the top of the fuel hat. I will then change over to the return system at some point later as I would need additional fuel fittings, FPR, upgraded pump etc whereas to get the engine running I just need the stock fuel system etc. Might run an additional fuel line and cap both ends next to the deadhead system so I would just need to fit the additional fittings to each end to go for the return system without needing to try and feed another line through and past the engine!
Next on the list is the 3 bolts on the exhaust manifold to cat for me to be able to remove the exhaust manifold - think they are 16mm bolts which is typical as I don't have any impact sockets that size!
Quick update:
Exhaust is now fully off, main cat bracket has rusted through so will get a temporary strap for run in but will probably change the whole exhaust over at some point.
Driver side engine mount bolt has now loosened - took a few days of soaking...oh and a 1" drive 60" breaker bar :D
All I have left to do is:
Slave cylinder removal from gearbox
Rear engine mount to loosen
Unclip a few wires to ensure the loom that drops with the engine isn't attached to the car!
Will also try and work out where the engine lift points are - could perhaps put the exhaust back on and use that or might be a case of just lowering the car down onto something then lifting the body off the engine?
Good work :D
As for lifting points i didnt bother and just used 2 ratchet straps as slings under engine and gearbox, i think the lift points are on top of head but sure someone will confirm.
Quote from: thetyrant on July 5, 2020, 16:46Good work :D
As for lifting points i didnt bother and just used 2 ratchet straps as slings under engine and gearbox, i think the lift points are on top of head but sure someone will confirm.
Yes on the corners they are open holes that are part of the casting.
Quote from: Carolyn on July 5, 2020, 16:49Quote from: thetyrant on July 5, 2020, 16:46Good work :D
As for lifting points i didnt bother and just used 2 ratchet straps as slings under engine and gearbox, i think the lift points are on top of head but sure someone will confirm.
Yes on the corners they are open holes that are part of the casting.
Thanks for that, I will check the engine for those, they usually have engine lift point brackets rather than being part of the block/head. Will probably use a combination of the lift points and ratchet straps as I am dropping the engine,gearbox, subframe and hubs etc as one assembly.
Just found a diagram with the hoist points - looks don't think my current engine has them but I am sure I can just use bolts, think one of the mounts are currently where a head earthing point is - intake side next to the timing end.
(https://parts.lakelandtoyota.com/images/parts/toyota/fullsize/112294L.jpg)
For anyone who needs to check the lift points, I have found a few photos of a 1zz fitted with the hooks for the hoist:
(https://i.imgur.com/Q0LMX1k.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pKWDOdb.jpg)
Holes seem to be M12 and around 22mm deep - sounds like I can use a spare set of bolts from the engine mount for them :) Intake side uses the same bolt hole as the earthing strap.
Spec clutch has arrived, currently trying to loosen up the lower arm from chassis to hub, will continue with it later.
I have ordered some running in oil, have some gearbox oil and bought some Toyota red coolant.
Will try and get the fluids drained later tonight from the car.
All oil is now drained, the chassis to hub arm bolts are 100% stuck even after soaking them for about a month at this point, leaves me no choice but to put the car on axle stands at the back and pull the drive shafts and subframe out again from the hub and drop the engine and box as one without any of the other parts attached.
Chassis to hub arm bolts are now loose, took a 4 foot breaker bar and probably about a metre worth of socket extensions but they are free.
Next on the list is driveshafts, might try and pull them tonight after getting the car onto axle stands, at this point it should be fairly easy to drop the subframe again.
Coolant lines have been removed from the engine and I have worked out which cables/hoses go with the engine and which stay behind!
Next steps will be:
Jack up car
Drop the subframe
Remove driveshafts
Remove clutch slave cylinder
Remove front engine bracket
Remove other part of front engine bracket (clutch line goes through it)
At this point the engine should be ready to drop out so I would then pull off the rear bumper, crash bar etc so that the engine crane has access.
After that I will need to move all of the parts over to the new engine that I need including the wiring harness, alternator, starter motor etc. I do also have to install the flywheel, clutch and front crank pulley as well but these can be done just before the box is bolted on - I have left these off at the moment as I wanted to reduce the weight of the engine for ease of movement.
Next major issue I have come up against, the Competition clutch lightweight flywheel doesn't fit - the centre bore is about 0.5mm too small so won't fit a stock 1zz crank. Think I will have to look to sand down the flywheel slightly as its a very close fit but it just won't go on. Good news is that the Spec clutch fits on the flywheel so at least part of it will go straight on!
Have you spoken to CC about flywheel as that is not good and the bore needs to be perfect fit to prevent imbalance, doubt you would be able to get it good enough by hand even if you could removed enough material, seems a shame to attempt it on such a quality rebuild setup i would speak to CC about it.
Edit i see the 2zz has a different bore size to 1zz so maybe you have the wrong flywheel ?
Quote from: thetyrant on July 15, 2020, 13:37Have you spoken to CC about flywheel as that is not good and the bore needs to be perfect fit to prevent imbalance, doubt you would be able to get it good enough by hand even if you could removed enough material, seems a shame to attempt it on such a quality rebuild setup i would speak to CC about it.
Edit i see the 2zz has a different bore size to 1zz so maybe you have the wrong flywheel ?
Will be taking it to a machine shop later to get it corrected to the correct size, its a 1zz flywheel as the bolt pattern is different on the 1zz vs 2zz for the end of the crank - have checked they line up ok with long bolts so its just a case of needing to remove 0.25mm from the inside of the bore it seems.
Will be attempting to remove the driveshafts today, not looking forward to it as I know the passenger side doesn't usually come out easily.
Old engine is out, labeling up the loom to move parts over to the new engine, found an issue with the 90 degree coolant fitting as it doesn't index correctly - if this leaks the new engine will have to be removed from the car again to fix as its behind the intake manifold.
Right, many many things have happened over the past 3 days, have pulled the loom and all ancillaries from the old engine and moved it over to the new, plus finished off the engine build as well (one final push).
This is BTW not how to do it!
(https://i.imgur.com/Gch4kOq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OGHd2oc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eClvtAw.jpg)
First major issue I found is a 90 degree coolant fitting in the head which wouldn't index correctly, I added PTFE tape as its a BSP fitting - its a taper male into a parallel female thread. There are actually now swivel BSP fittings due to the pain of indexing them correctly! Anyway, with the PTFE tape on I turned it hand tight then nipped it up to where it needed to be. It might not look a stressful fix but if this fitting leaks the whole engine has to come out again! I could however rock the whole engine on the 90 degree fitting so it should be sealed!
(https://i.imgur.com/bj6EFsj.jpg)
Just before fitting the gearbox together:
(https://i.imgur.com/gDq0sFJ.jpg)
There was also the gearbox issue that stumped me a bit, it looks like the dowel at the bottom of the picture came with the gearbox on the engine from that setup and the block had the same dowel but it was stuck in the block side from that donor engine. Basically I needed to pull out the dowel from the block side as there were twice as many dowels as I needed! Once this was done the box actually went on ok.
(https://i.imgur.com/u2kzRq8.jpg)
After a bit of a fight with various jacks, bolt holes and hoists it went back in though, the very very long cable is from the Bosch knock sensor as I have upgraded to that from the single wire - it lives behind the intake manifold and is impossible to get to with the engine in.
(https://i.imgur.com/uag6cfB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8ztF8Ia.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/v5FPfaV.jpg)
Will hopefully be able to torque up the suspension components later today, fill the gearbox with oil, add a priming tube to the oil pressure port and do some final checks before dropping the car down again for a bit.
Plan will be to use a 12v fluid transfer pump to pump the break in oil into the high pressure circuit via the oil pressure sensor port to prime the engine as the oil HAS to go via the main bearings, rod bearings and camshaft bearing surfaces to be able to get back to the sump. This will mean that the engine should be pre primed before I turn the engine over (although will do so without injectors or plugs first). This will mean that the bearings will be fully oiled any any muck that might have got into the system will be flushed out into the sump to then be caught by the filter before going back into the engine.
Looking good :)
Regarding tightening of suspension bolts in case you dont know you can not do this until car is sat on its wheels with suspension at normal ride height, reason being the way most of the bushes work is they are fixed centres and bush twists as suspension moves, if you tighten the arms with car jacked up they will have to twist a lot further than normal and shorten lifespan etc.
Keep up the good progress :D
Quote from: thetyrant on July 20, 2020, 08:21Looking good :)
Regarding tightening of suspension bolts in case you dont know you can not do this until car is sat on its wheels with suspension at normal ride height, reason being the way most of the bushes work is they are fixed centres and bush twists as suspension moves, if you tighten the arms with car jacked up they will have to twist a lot further than normal and shorten lifespan etc.
Keep up the good progress :D
Thanks for that, will look to go through all bolts to tighten them a bit first though but there are bolts like the hub nuts and strut bolts that I can torque up already.
I think I also have one or 2 bolts which I need to chase the threads on, one on the passenger side engine mount (its still held on with 3 other large bolts though!) and one of them on the front engine mount (again with 2 large bolts also holding it solid).
You can't really see it in the photos but the Moroso sump looks epic - need to see how much extra oil it needs with that, think its something like 2 quarts extra so an extra 1.8 litres.
Quote from: thetyrant on July 20, 2020, 08:21Looking good :)
Regarding tightening of suspension bolts in case you dont know you can not do this until car is sat on its wheels with suspension at normal ride height, reason being the way most of the bushes work is they are fixed centres and bush twists as suspension moves, if you tighten the arms with car jacked up they will have to twist a lot further than normal and shorten lifespan etc.
Keep up the good progress :D
One can also jack the suspension to normal running height with the car on still on stands, which makes the job less irksome.
Quote from: Carolyn on July 20, 2020, 08:41Quote from: thetyrant on July 20, 2020, 08:21Looking good :)
Regarding tightening of suspension bolts in case you dont know you can not do this until car is sat on its wheels with suspension at normal ride height, reason being the way most of the bushes work is they are fixed centres and bush twists as suspension moves, if you tighten the arms with car jacked up they will have to twist a lot further than normal and shorten lifespan etc.
Keep up the good progress :D
One can also jack the suspension to normal running height with the car on still on stands, which makes the job less irksome.
I was also thinking this - will work through a few options, car will need a full alignment anyway, will probably look to get that sorted once the engine is broken in and I am happy that its all working as it should.
What turbo manifold is that by the way?
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 20, 2020, 09:15What turbo manifold is that by the way?
Its an OBX-R manifold, think its a T3 flange, although have an adaptor to T25, I think I will be going for a slightly smaller turbo initially before jumping to a larger turbo. Will probably order one of those cast turbokits T25 manifolds when I do bolt a turbo on, will be running this engine NA on the stock ECU for break in and for a bit. I only really fitted that turbo manifold on the engine to protect the side of the block if the engine tipped over in the garage, plus it was a handy handle when moving the engine around the bay!
Still have a lot of things to sort and check before I can fire it up - need to get a fuel rail adaptor to run my Radium rail but I can take my time a bit more now as I can get to all of the parts.
I have disconnected the stock knock sensor as I have the Bosch unit, I will see if the stock ECU throws an engine code - I did make sure I can get to the connector for the sensor so I can always plug it in but leave it out the block etc.
I am taking my time with the next few steps, I have noticed that its quite hard to screw in the oil pressure sensor as the pipework is quite close to the sensor - will check on the old engine where its meant to sit but might be clocked slightly incorrectly. Might be a case of pulling off the oil filter (unfortunately pre filled with oil!) and loosening the oil cooler sandwich plate to rotate it slightly with the large 30mm nut. I installed a new O ring and washer when I put it back in on Sunday so should be ok if I need to rotate it slightly, didn't install the sensor at the time as it would be something that could get knocked. Not too concerned though as I can get to the part easily from under the car so no real issue.
I have ordered some upgraded poly bushes for the shifter linkage, the car actually has skateboard bearings but were quite stuck on there when I took them off so need to swap them out for something better.
Next stage of the project is to go through and torque all bolts, the car is back on its wheels now so I can tighten up the various lower arm bolts.
The driveshaft nuts need to be torqued to something ridiculous so will need to tighten those up when on the ground with someone pressing the brakes.
Currently in the process of filling the car with coolant, using the OEM Toyota red coolant but I will probably be changing out the radiator at some point so will do a full flush when the time comes.
Rear crash bar and bumper is back on as well as the rear lights, just checking through the wiring and coolant hoses - no leaks so far with the coolant topped up which is good.
The final few fuel parts arrived today, planning to just run the Radium rail as a deadhead system like OEM with an quick connector to AN6 fitting - will mean I can easily upgrade in the future when the time comes.
Once everything is torqued up I will then refit the exhaust, air filter, battery tray and battery, just the oil pressure sensor that seems to be the next sticking point.
Plan to start the engine (with a helper)
Rocker cover off + no injectors plugged in
Put barbed fitting into oil pressure sensor port
Use the 12v fluid pump to add in oil to the engine - once it comes up to the head I will know that there is oil on all bearings
At this point I will probably turn the engine over by hand to check the timing and that the tensioner is set
Rocker cover on
Oil pressure sensor screwed in (blue loctite is mentioned in the manual)
Fill engine until oil is on the dipstick - engine now takes 5.8 litres of oil!
Key on to first position
Check for any fuel leaks
Turn engine over with plugs out and open throttle plate
Hopefully see the oil pressure light go out
Check for coolant leaks
Plug in injectors and put plugs and coils back in
Check oil level
Turn key to start
Check for oil, fuel and coolant leaks
After a bit of a mission a couple of weekends ago the old engine was dropped, the loom and all ancillaries were swapped over, engine then went back in.
It all fired up last weekend just to check for leaks, I have just fired it up today and have started driving it for the break in period. So far so good, have around 12 miles so far with various revs and load, will be dropping the oil at 50 miles, putting in more break in oil and a new filter and will continue for another period of break in.
The Spec stage 3+ clutch (rated to 400ft/lbs) is only slightly more aggressive than stock and I didn't really notice the difference - it has a 500 mile break in so I am guessing it might bed in and become slightly more aggressive after that.
The JUBU 3rd and 4th Helical cut gears are fairly loud, although I know I need to use them to be able to hold the power I am planning, engine currently feels quite strong with decent exhaust pulses. The engine has a lower compression than a stock engine but has a tiny bit more displacement due to the 0.5mm overbore so I think it works out at something like 1% different to stock when taking the CR drop into hand.
Currently breaking it in on the stock ECU - its thrown a code for lack of knock sensor which is fine, might plug the stock one back into the loom so its happy, the Bosch knock sensor is yet to be wired into the Link Xtreme but will be done soon - not too worried if the ECU is running on a very safe map at the moment but feels like its running well.
Engine has just gone past 50 miles of break in with various load levels as well as consistent load then a period of cooling the rings etc.
Will be dropping the oil later and changing the filter over but its almost there, only had an oil leak from the rocker cover gasket which has been sorted and there is a small leak from the Moroso sump although I think it might be the various drain plugs - will look to add some sealant onto the turbo drain bung etc later.
I have noticed that when initially starting the break in process the engine did heat up fairly quickly (makes sense if the parts are rubbing against each other more). I haven't run the engine past 5k rpm yet but it has been on 50-75% throttle for a period of time. I can tell that its starting to break in though as I can feel the engine is becoming slightly more free-er revving as well as feeling it pull slightly stronger. When starting to break it in I could tell it wasn't that free above say 3.5k rpm, now its very smooth up to around 4.5-5k rpm.
I know that the break in process is complete after around 60-120 miles so will drop the oil at 50 miles as it would probably have a fair amount of initial wear as well as all of the engine assembly oils etc, will then run some more fresh break in oil for another 100 miles or maybe the tank of fuel before switching over to normal mineral oil.
Once you get the oil changed start to use all the rev range, not doing hard loads or bouncing it off the limiter but do let it rev right up in lower gears as this gets pressure on the rings helping them bed into cylinders.
Run a magnet through the oil that comes out as well see how much metal you get, there will probably be some small particles with a full build and on next change it should be pretty metal free.
Keep up the good work :D
Quote from: thetyrant on August 7, 2020, 08:27Once you get the oil changed start to use all the rev range, not doing hard loads or bouncing it off the limiter but do let it rev right up in lower gears as this gets pressure on the rings helping them bed into cylinders.
Run a magnet through the oil that comes out as well see how much metal you get, there will probably be some small particles with a full build and on next change it should be pretty metal free.
Keep up the good work :D
Yeah for the initial miles I am not going full revs but more about varying the load and going to say 75% throttle, then back off to let the rings cool, now that I know a piston and rod hasn't gone through the block at 5k rpm I will push on to 6k and so on. I can tell that the engine is free-ing up though, not sure I will take it to 8,500 rpm for a while though!
Will clean up my oil drain pan a bit, its currently full of bearing chunks from one of the donor engines lol might be slightly misleading! Oil is cheap, this engine isn't so I have I think another 3 oil filters sitting on the bench, will use the next 5 litres of the specific break in oil then swap over to basic mineral oil. I think my break in oil I have is only good for 500-1000 miles.
Sounds sensible, personally i would only use break-in oils for very short periods changing at 100-200 miles max and use plenty of revs to get the rings sealed then move onto mineral oil or semi-synthetic for better bearing protection so you can work the engine increasingly harder as miles click on.
All engine builders have different opinions on running in and while im not a "run it in in 5minutes" kind of guy i do like to work them fairly hard from the off with frequent oil/filter changes etc to remove anything thats getting in there from the break-in, if its built right it will take it :)
At the end of the day rings should bed in pretty quickly with revs and thats it as all your really bedding in, the bearings dont need to bed in as they should just be correct from the off and relying on the oil film to keep them metal off metal, hence going to a better oil as soon as you can so your not worried about lack of lube on bearings as you rev it more etc, on mine ive done 2 changes using semi synth and just about to do 3rd one, 1st @ 190 miles, 2nd @ 550miles and now just over 900 so going to switch back to fully synthetic :D
Quote from: thetyrant on August 7, 2020, 09:50Sounds sensible, personally i would only use break-in oils for very short periods changing at 100-200 miles max and use plenty of revs to get the rings sealed then move onto mineral oil or semi-synthetic for better bearing protection so you can work the engine increasingly harder as miles click on.
All engine builders have different opinions on running in and while im not a "run it in in 5minutes" kind of guy i do like to work them fairly hard from the off with frequent oil/filter changes etc to remove anything thats getting in there from the break-in, if its built right it will take it :)
At the end of the day rings should bed in pretty quickly with revs and thats it as all your really bedding in, the bearings dont need to bed in as they should just be correct from the off and relying on the oil film to keep them metal off metal, hence going to a better oil as soon as you can so your not worried about lack of lube on bearings as you rev it more etc, on mine ive done 2 changes using semi synth and just about to do 3rd one, 1st @ 190 miles, 2nd @ 550miles and now just over 900 so going to switch back to fully synthetic :D
I am going on the advice of High Performance Academy which basically makes perfect sense:
Moderate load and revs for say 10 seconds up to around 5k
30 second on lower load to let the rings cool down so they don't overheat with all the extra friction
Repeat
Don't let it idle whilst hot
Break in will be complete in the first 100-200km if its been properly bed in or not
You don't 'bed in' bearings - the crank and bearings will never meet as there is always (hopefully) the oil film will be there.
I agree that the break in oil is only very very short usage, it has extra additives to help protect surfaces slightly more but can't be used for normal use.
Will get myself some basic mineral or semi synthetic after this oil change - will be changing it out more regularly than usual but not after 50 miles lol. A lot of the bedding in would have been done by now so this first oil change will probably be removing most of the swarf/engine break in lubricants etc.
Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 10:48Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.
Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!
Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 10:54Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 10:48Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.
Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!
Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 11:04Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 10:54Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 10:48Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.
Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!
Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.
Pff... Hearsay. You have no proof of this being a bad thing to do...
;) hehehe
Quote from: shnazzle on August 7, 2020, 12:59Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 11:04Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 10:54Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 7, 2020, 10:48Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.
Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!
Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.
Pff... Hearsay. You have no proof of this being a bad thing to do...
;) hehehe
See what winter brings 🤓
Just changed the oil over, done another 5 miles or so but then had issues where in the heat it started to stall out at roundabouts, checking the fuel trims it is pulling a lot of fuel out - engine management light is on which is to be expected as the knock sensor is unplugged.
I am going to convert it over to the standalone ECU and run it on the MAP sensor incase the MAF is having issues, will plug it in later.
Still need to support the exhaust better but it should be ok for a bit, have another aftermarket bracket coming as the main cat bracket rusted off when taking it off.
Will give everything a check over in terms of oil etc, can't see any leaks or any other issues - might just be the hot weather that is causing issues with the stock ECU considering its trying to run an engine that isn't 100% a stock size.
I did pull one of the plugs which were slightly darker but not fouled - can still see the markings in the top of the pistons though so its not really running super rich.
Wideband is plugged in now so will see what its running at.
Eeek hopefully a minor glitch mate! did you scan to see if any error codes? (other than missing knock sensor)
Quote from: thetyrant on August 13, 2020, 14:21Eeek hopefully a minor glitch mate! did you scan to see if any error codes? (other than missing knock sensor)
No other error codes, really hope its not a major issue, will check everything over - started to panic again though but it does seem to just be a case of the stock ECU trying to get the engine to idle properly and might just be a case of taking a while to try and get the trims correct - which might be out of spec for the stock ECU.
Hopefully the Link ECU will get it to idle and run slightly better as it has the option to autofuel whilst driving - issue being is that I cannot idle the engine for long as its not good for break in.
Really hope its not broken! Have followed EVERYTHING by the book on this due to the expense.
Fingers crossed its something minor buddy as you say you have done stuff as it should be, i would be inclined to try and work out why stock ecu wont run it before switching to the Link, how far out are the trims ?
Quote from: thetyrant on August 13, 2020, 14:58Fingers crossed its something minor buddy as you say you have done stuff as it should be, i would be inclined to try and work out why stock ecu wont run it before switching to the Link, how far out are the trims ?
Stock ECU will run it - just not that well, trims were pulling fuel out like crazy, last check it was at -25% short term with it then adding to the long term trims as well. It does have a lighter flywheel so I guess if the trims weren't perfect it couldn't catch the falling idle on the way down, I did reset the codes so it might be the case that its still trying to correct and would need some driving around although I did feel like it was bogging a bit when driving it.
I did fire the car up with the wideband and the stock ECU running, was sitting at 14.7:1 on idle dropping to around 13:1 when I blipped the throttle so seems to be ok, think it might just be fuel trim related, the Link can adjust fuel trims far faster and will look to log on startup when I get a chance.
Hmmm im presuming it was running fine up until now though ? changing ecu will give you more data but the stock ecu should run it fine even with the light flywheel etc, hopefully its something simple and cant think how anything in the engine build that would cause this (without making nasty noises) so probably just a sensor or leak somewhere.
Sounds a lot like a sticky IACV, mine was the same after being stood for a while, especially if you cleaned it when you took it out on the strip down?
It could also be that you need to have it idling a good bit higher than standard for it to sit pretty.
I know you went back to standard cams but mine and at least one others car with lumpy cams need to idle around 1000-1100, especially with the lightweight flywheel.
I have just switched over to the Link ECU, its running better but now have the task of dialling the tuning in slightly from the original maps I tuned.
To throw an additional spanner in the works, previously the engine would idle at say mid to high 30kpa, its now up at mid 40s so the idle cell locations have moved slightly.
The car does pull strongly with the Link though, think it might have just been a case of the stock ECU being on the limit of what it could adjust, especially with no knock sensor.
Hope you get it sorted, just as an observation though you're probably better off quoting your idle speeds etc in rpm on posts for advice, it makes it easier for everyone to recognise previous issues etc.
30kpa means nothing to me or I imagine a lot of other people.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 14, 2020, 10:16Hope you get it sorted, just as an observation though you're probably better off quoting your idle speeds etc in rpm on posts for advice, it makes it easier for everyone to recognise previous issues etc.
30kpa means nothing to me or I imagine a lot of other people.
Pressure definitely gives a very useful picture.
You want as much vacuum as possible at idle.
As you said, idle speed is also very dependent on the setup.
Idle speed is set to 1k rpm at the moment as it was on the previous engine, have just uploaded a slightly new map after also tweaking the injector timing as well and it seems a bit more stable.
I still need to sort out the exhaust hanger on the main cat but its slowly getting there - main concern for me is to get the car under load as much as possible to get the rings bed in rather than no load at idle.
Will probably take it out a bit later and see what its like and get some more logging done.
I have temporarily sorted an extra hanger on the exhaust - its ok but not perfect, will be changing over to my 'bag of snakes' exhaust manifold and a sports cat midpipe at some point soon. The sports cat midpipe has an O2 bung pre and post cat so I can run my wideband precat to get the mixtures across the board rather than using 2 of the runners in the stock exhaust. I have checked plugs etc and the engine does seem to burn cleanly across all cylinders the same so taking the O2 readings from just 2 of the runners is ok at the moment.
I have tweaked a few of the settings within the Link in terms of the idle tables after a few logging runs and will see how it goes with these changes.
The engine itself runs well, I can see that it needs a tweak to the fuel map as looking at some of the fuel corrections the ECU is making, some cells are needing 6% less fuel, some are fine though.
Once I get the idle sorted and have a few more miles on the engine - think its done about 70 miles in total so far, I will look to make a few more amends, also need to get the Bosch doughnut knock sensor wired in as well - no huge rush with that though as the 1zz isn't knock limited.
Are you sure about that?
To my knowledge the 1zz is rather knock limited indeed.
In fact, it's used as the test mule at HP Academy because it's easy to induce knock, which they use to demonstrate knock and what it sounds like.
But, you are running much lower comp now so you're probably alright now. Is it 8:1 you're on?
You're on there as well aren't you? Ask the question in the forum. Those guys know the ins and outs of the 1zz with almost every ecu
Quote from: shnazzle on August 16, 2020, 11:13Are you sure about that?
To my knowledge the 1zz is rather knock limited indeed.
In fact, it's used as the test mule at HP Academy because it's easy to induce knock, which they use to demonstrate knock and what it sounds like.
But, you are running much lower comp now so you're probably alright now. Is it 8:1 you're on?
You're on there as well aren't you? Ask the question in the forum. Those guys know the ins and outs of the 1zz with almost every ecu
I am using the same timings as I have done before and logged the knock values on all cylinders - MBT on this engine is at around 30 degrees advanced. I will be getting the knock sensor sorted out very very soon but as its NA, any knock won't destroy the engine as it would do on a boosted engine. I went for a static CR of 9.5:1, the 8.8:1 off the shelf pistons are too low for a street driven car as they are very lazy off boost. The Ford Ecoboost engine has a CR of 10:1 - back in the 90s I would have probably dropped the CR lower but with modern ECUs and injectors you don't need to drop the CR too low as the electronics are now far more advanced.
Here is a quote from Andre from the HPA forum:
"If it helps, on our local 98 octane pump gas we reach MBT at about 30 deg BTDC at high rpm and WOT. The engine isn't knock limited on this fuel and just doesn't make more power/torque with any more timing."
Must be on 98 then. Odd. There was an article explaining why they chose the 1zz and it was because they were plentiful, very simple and easy to make knock..
Have just installed the Bosch 'wideband' knock sensor, will get everything setup but I think the cylinder trim % on them look to be about right as the sensor is in the same place as before.
Minor update, have now sorted the idle out I think, seems much happier, needed to tweak a few idle duty cycles as well as a few ignition and fuel tables but it seems much happier.
Think I have now done around 25 more miles on the car bringing it up to 75 miles in total, no issues so far with it but will be going round and checking all bolts etc again, might now pull the battery out and check the passenger side engine mounts and swap over to my MAF-less intake tube as at this point I don't think I can go back to stock with the current knock sensor.
Would be interesting to see what kind of changed you see in measured manifold pressure without the MAF in place. Put to sleep for good the inferences that the MAF is a big drag on performance and airflow
Quote from: shnazzle on August 18, 2020, 17:33Would be interesting to see what kind of changed you see in measured manifold pressure without the MAF in place. Put to sleep for good the inferences that the MAF is a big drag on performance and airflow
I am going to leave the MAF tube in place at the moment during break in, will look to log some runs as well as see what the idle and fuel trims are like with the MAF swapped out to a tube.
I have now swapped the MAF tube out to just run a silicone adaptor and straight tube.
There is a slight squeak coming from somewhere on the car, might be the front engine mount, its just rather annoying!
Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
I have swapped over to a straight tube, removing the MAF tube and have done some logging, looking at some of the logs pre and post I can see at full throttle at around 5.5k rpm (found a like for like area pre and post) the engine is now leaned out with the same fuel table mapping.
With MAF tube = 13.6:1
With straight pipe = 14.4:1
With all things equal it would seem that there would be around 5% more airflow going into the engine to be able to lean the engine out whilst fuelling the same.
I will be turning the closed loop lambda back on again to autofuel to the AFR target but it looks like I might need to richen the fuel table by around 5% with the new intake.
I am hoping to also get a higher flow sports cat to replace the very rattling heatshielded stock cat (currently driving me mad!) - still trying to find where the squeak is coming from but might also be main cat heat shield related.
Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 11:25Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
I have swapped over to a straight tube, removing the MAF tube and have done some logging, looking at some of the logs pre and post I can see at full throttle at around 5.5k rpm (found a like for like area pre and post) the engine is now leaned out with the same fuel table mapping.
With MAF tube = 13.6:1
With straight pipe = 14.4:1
With all things equal it would seem that there would be around 5% more airflow going into the engine to be able to lean the engine out whilst fuelling the same.
I will be turning the closed loop lambda back on again to autofuel to the AFR target but it looks like I might need to richen the fuel table by around 5% with the new intake.
I am hoping to also get a higher flow sports cat to replace the very rattling heatshielded stock cat (currently driving me mad!) - still trying to find where the squeak is coming from but might also be main cat heat shield related.
That much?? Crikey. That's massive!
On the piggyback I had an airflow correction of 10% guesstimated, which seems to be too much. I kept that value because that's how it was mapped with a 57i K&N setup.
But it won't be uniform across the board of course
Quote from: shnazzle on September 2, 2020, 12:45Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 11:25Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
I have swapped over to a straight tube, removing the MAF tube and have done some logging, looking at some of the logs pre and post I can see at full throttle at around 5.5k rpm (found a like for like area pre and post) the engine is now leaned out with the same fuel table mapping.
With MAF tube = 13.6:1
With straight pipe = 14.4:1
With all things equal it would seem that there would be around 5% more airflow going into the engine to be able to lean the engine out whilst fuelling the same.
I will be turning the closed loop lambda back on again to autofuel to the AFR target but it looks like I might need to richen the fuel table by around 5% with the new intake.
I am hoping to also get a higher flow sports cat to replace the very rattling heatshielded stock cat (currently driving me mad!) - still trying to find where the squeak is coming from but might also be main cat heat shield related.
That much?? Crikey. That's massive!
On the piggyback I had an airflow correction of 10% guesstimated, which seems to be too much. I kept that value because that's how it was mapped with a 57i K&N setup.
But it won't be uniform across the board of course
Correct - its just on one of the cells comparing like for like though.
My setup is a 3" cone filter to a 3" pipe necking down to the 70mm throttle body outer so basically no restriction before the throttlebody and will be the same sort of setup when I do go turbo.
Just need to sort out the really really annoying rattling and squeaking the car now has but its slowly getting there now - shouldn't need to worry about oil consumption, only ensuring that things are ok for the MOT in terms of emissions next year.
Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 11:25Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
Just past 100 miles! what you been doing get it out and drive it :D im nearly 1500miles on mine now since the refresh :D
Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 13:25Quote from: shnazzle on September 2, 2020, 12:45Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 11:25Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
I have swapped over to a straight tube, removing the MAF tube and have done some logging, looking at some of the logs pre and post I can see at full throttle at around 5.5k rpm (found a like for like area pre and post) the engine is now leaned out with the same fuel table mapping.
With MAF tube = 13.6:1
With straight pipe = 14.4:1
With all things equal it would seem that there would be around 5% more airflow going into the engine to be able to lean the engine out whilst fuelling the same.
I will be turning the closed loop lambda back on again to autofuel to the AFR target but it looks like I might need to richen the fuel table by around 5% with the new intake.
I am hoping to also get a higher flow sports cat to replace the very rattling heatshielded stock cat (currently driving me mad!) - still trying to find where the squeak is coming from but might also be main cat heat shield related.
That much?? Crikey. That's massive!
On the piggyback I had an airflow correction of 10% guesstimated, which seems to be too much. I kept that value because that's how it was mapped with a 57i K&N setup.
But it won't be uniform across the board of course
Correct - its just on one of the cells comparing like for like though.
My setup is a 3" cone filter to a 3" pipe necking down to the 70mm throttle body outer so basically no restriction before the throttlebody and will be the same sort of setup when I do go turbo.
Just need to sort out the really really annoying rattling and squeaking the car now has but its slowly getting there now - shouldn't need to worry about oil consumption, only ensuring that things are ok for the MOT in terms of emissions next year.
Which cells out of curiosity? Guessing lower down?
Quote from: shnazzle on September 2, 2020, 16:35Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 13:25Quote from: shnazzle on September 2, 2020, 12:45Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2020, 11:25Still in the process of breaking the engine in, although its now past 100 miles of driving so is pretty much broken in at this point.
I have swapped over to a straight tube, removing the MAF tube and have done some logging, looking at some of the logs pre and post I can see at full throttle at around 5.5k rpm (found a like for like area pre and post) the engine is now leaned out with the same fuel table mapping.
With MAF tube = 13.6:1
With straight pipe = 14.4:1
With all things equal it would seem that there would be around 5% more airflow going into the engine to be able to lean the engine out whilst fuelling the same.
I will be turning the closed loop lambda back on again to autofuel to the AFR target but it looks like I might need to richen the fuel table by around 5% with the new intake.
I am hoping to also get a higher flow sports cat to replace the very rattling heatshielded stock cat (currently driving me mad!) - still trying to find where the squeak is coming from but might also be main cat heat shield related.
That much?? Crikey. That's massive!
On the piggyback I had an airflow correction of 10% guesstimated, which seems to be too much. I kept that value because that's how it was mapped with a 57i K&N setup.
But it won't be uniform across the board of course
Correct - its just on one of the cells comparing like for like though.
My setup is a 3" cone filter to a 3" pipe necking down to the 70mm throttle body outer so basically no restriction before the throttlebody and will be the same sort of setup when I do go turbo.
Just need to sort out the really really annoying rattling and squeaking the car now has but its slowly getting there now - shouldn't need to worry about oil consumption, only ensuring that things are ok for the MOT in terms of emissions next year.
Which cells out of curiosity? Guessing lower down?
Here is my full mixture map for the last log, was doing a few pulls (for break in) plus some cruise and light load - the fuel map was basically pretty well mapped before I changed out the MAF tube. Below is without any CLL corrections, you can see it is much leaner at higher RPMs, was looking at the pre MAF tube change file and the CLL is off at the load cells and were within about 2% of target.
Note: 1000 rpm and 35-40kpa is idle
(https://i.imgur.com/kwxolqs.jpg)
Owing to the current lockdown I haven't been able to put too many miles on the engine recently but I think I have done about 125 miles so far on the engine (around 75 miles on the current oil). Looking at the dipstick the oil is still a good colour, whereas after 50 miles on the previous oil it was already quite black so I am guessing most of the assembly oils and ARP gunk would have been pulled out of the engine in the first oil change which is great.
Currently tracking down a VVTi sensor error that flagged up on the Link ECU - only just noticed it but I think its been an issue for a while - will just be down to the setup on the Link ECU, need to go through a cam angle test process and offset the VVTi trigger signal.
Idle seems to be sorted out and have updated the main fuel table with everything seemingly correct and within only a few % vs target (looking at the closed loop lambda fueling trims).
I am now dialling in the cylinder trims for the knock sensor - cylinders 2 and 3 that are closer to the knock sensor need to have the gain reduced to match off with cylinder 1 and 4 that are further away to get an even figure across the engine.
It takes forever for the ARP lube to stop blackening the oil...
Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 9, 2020, 14:25It takes forever for the ARP lube to stop blackening the oil...
And your hands lol
Think I have sorted out the VVTi error - the trigger angle offset was at 50 degrees, after running the test calibration it seems that it should be set to around 46.3 degrees which I think might be why it was throwing up an error every now and then.
Not put a huge amount more miles on the car due to the weather but I am happy with where it currently is, I will be running one of the Mailan sports cats and might swap over to the 'snake' exhaust manifold I have as well. The reason why I am looking to change over to the sports cat midpipe is that its new, has a new mounting point and there are O2 bungs both pre and post the main cat so perfect for my Wideband O2. Currently I am only measuring the AFR in 2 of the cylinders rather than the mix overall so this should sort this issue - might still try to see if I can fit an O2 bung in a stock cat though.
I am also going to focus on the suspension components now so will look to polybush the arms etc bit by bit as well as treat any rust I find.
I have a spare set of lower arms being posted to me, will be refurbishing them and fitting the poly bushes, think I might see if I can get the arm that gets bolted to the subframe via the cambolt for toe alignment as I have yet to get the car realigned after subframe swap. Figure I might as well get at least that arm poly bushed so that I wouldn't need to get it realigned again when I pull the bolt out again to fit the bushes.
Quick update on this, I have been tweaking my tune slightly on the Link Xtreme, now happy with the fuelling as well as sorting a few trigger errors out. The engine is running well and is on around 250 mile so not a huge mileage but due to the current situation I haven't had a need to take the car out that much.
I will look to clean and refurbish the current suspension arms and see if I can get them installed over the next few months, still need to get my alignment sorted on the car since changing the subframe but its not been too bad.
I have also upgraded to some Widermuller HVAC knobs and might look to replicate them in a different metal at some point once I get the garage workshop built up.
I am now in the process of pulling together a few turbo bits ready for the engine to be boosted, I actually have a used Saab T25 turbo coming which is probably ok for around 250-270bhp, its small but will allow me to bolt everything up and run things. Plan will be to then upgrade to a larger unit once everything is happy when the time comes.
Will also give me the opportunity to add some more data to my gradual improvements on the car
Here are the runs so far:
Stock power, stock weight 15.8 - 138bhp per ton
Stock power and around 68kg removed - 15.3 - 148bhp per ton
Extra power and around 68kg removed - 14.96 - 158bhp per ton (guesstimate 10bhp more than stock looking at the estimated times)
Car down on power but 83kg removed - 14.99 - 158bhp per ton - looks like I am down around 3bhp to get the same time with less weight
Estimated time if car was at 83kg removed and full power from previous runs - 14.86 (around 1 second improvement from stock)
I am planning to go to Santapod next year with a high flow cat and the new engine which will have the new gearset and higher rev limit which will give me a good benchmark run with the new engine.
I will then look to bolt on the smaller turbo and run it like that - probably running low boost to get some data and then turn it up depending on how hot the intake is getting post charge cooler - as a guess it should run a 13 second pass with around 220bhp, maybe into the 12s if I go for higher boost levels.
From there on I will need a lot more power to get into the 11s, as a comparison (estimated times):
150bhp per ton = 15.2
200bhp per ton = 13.6
250bhp per ton = 12.7
300bhp per ton = 12.2
350bhp per ton = 11.8
400bhp per ton = 11.5
450bhp per ton = 11.4
500bhp per ton = 11.2
Plan for the build it to run an 11 second pass so 11.9 or faster so would need just over 315bhp or so.
Might either go with a GTX2871r or a GTX3071r as the possible turbo options, very much doubt the more common GTX2860 will flow enough to get me to where I need to get to but will see how the smaller turbo pans out first!
Which turbo is it mate?
T25 is such a generic term.
I still fancy borg Warner turbos if I was going for big power on a built engine.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 17:31Which turbo is it mate?
T25 is such a generic term.
I still fancy borg Warner turbos if I was going for big power on a built engine.
Think most of the saab T25 were GT2554's
Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 27, 2020, 07:42Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
I might not fit it but its an option, will be mapping it myself to get it in the ball park so it probably won't be 100% power with the smaller turbo if I do go with it first. With the larger turbo I will be going for a professional map though - the smaller turbo won't really be worrying the engine that much as it will be on low boost.
Link ECU has autofuelling via wideband which corrects the fueling instantly if its not on target in the AFR table, also have knock control setup (although still tweaking the individual cylinder trims).
If I do go with the smaller turbo to start with I would just run it on wastegate pressure and see where the fueling is going - can then just interpolate the fuelling for the rest of the map for this turbo.
Turbo has now arrived along with the exhaust manifold and chargecooler. Will be ordering a 3 bolt to V band adaptor to fit it to the off the shelf turbo back downpipe soon, although no rush.
My NA sports cat midpipe should be arriving soon so will hopefully be able to swap that in over the weekend along with my race exhaust manifold. Will be then running the car on a single wideband O2 sensor pre cat (rather than using one of the decat manifold O2 bungs for the whole engine).
I also have a Fiat Cinquecento radiator on the way as well for the chargecooler radiator to fit to the front and will then get some long hoses to run to the back of the car at some point. Also need to work out piping and routing of the intake system so might need to relocate the battery or drop it down to the cross member for clearance.
Plan is still to run the car NA for most of next year whilst I collect parts, the exhaust system is easy, its just the plumbing for oil and water as well as space for the intake pipework.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 27, 2020, 07:42Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
Like buying a second hand Apexi and paying for it fitting and tuning then taking it off again as soon as you get home, I second that emotion.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on December 1, 2020, 17:38Quote from: 1979scotte on November 27, 2020, 07:42Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
Like buying a second hand Apexi and paying for it fitting and tuning then taking it off again as soon as you get home, I second that emotion.
Will be mapping the engine myself with the smaller turbo - I have mapped the car myself NA so far and have various engine protection measures in place.
Will look to go to a dyno tuning place to map the thing fully when I do look to swap to a larger turbo - turbo wasn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things and everything else built around it will be staying so the only difference in cost between the smaller turbo and the larger turbo (apart from the £££ of buying the larger turbo) would be my time and the time of the tuner.
Quote from: m1tch on December 2, 2020, 10:58Quote from: Call the midlife! on December 1, 2020, 17:38Quote from: 1979scotte on November 27, 2020, 07:42Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
Like buying a second hand Apexi and paying for it fitting and tuning then taking it off again as soon as you get home, I second that emotion.
Will be mapping the engine myself with the smaller turbo - I have mapped the car myself NA so far and have various engine protection measures in place.
Will look to go to a dyno tuning place to map the thing fully when I do look to swap to a larger turbo - turbo wasn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things and everything else built around it will be staying so the only difference in cost between the smaller turbo and the larger turbo (apart from the £££ of buying the larger turbo) would be my time and the time of the tuner.
Aye, I was just referencing my own experience with doing things in stages and the amount of money that starts haemorrhaging away over the course of a build.
Start off with plan/budget A and I'm currently at budget N, verging on budget S, always makes me laugh when people shout loudly that you can do this swap or that build for X number of pounds but fail to mention they've had to throw half as much again at it over the next couple of years just to keep it running.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on December 2, 2020, 12:21Quote from: m1tch on December 2, 2020, 10:58Quote from: Call the midlife! on December 1, 2020, 17:38Quote from: 1979scotte on November 27, 2020, 07:42Quote from: m1tch on November 27, 2020, 07:14Quote from: 1979scotte on November 26, 2020, 20:58Quote from: thetyrant on November 26, 2020, 20:20Its the same turbo used on SP240 kits that he is getting which is as per following link - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882
Basically im selling M1tch the stuff ive been collecting up as im putting the 2nd chapter of my turbo build on back burner for time being, might as well sell to someone else to make use of in meantime :D
It's a TB2559 if its the same saab turbo as the TTE/SP kits.
Not sure why you'd buy one if you didn't have a tte its ancient tech.
Although they are cheap.
Its just a starter for 10 - even a small old school turbo will make more boost than an NA manifold :D
Yes but if you swap it, it needs mapping again.
Every change i made to my V6 was money wasted. Should just have gone all out from the beginning.
Different strokes for different folks.
Like buying a second hand Apexi and paying for it fitting and tuning then taking it off again as soon as you get home, I second that emotion.
Will be mapping the engine myself with the smaller turbo - I have mapped the car myself NA so far and have various engine protection measures in place.
Will look to go to a dyno tuning place to map the thing fully when I do look to swap to a larger turbo - turbo wasn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things and everything else built around it will be staying so the only difference in cost between the smaller turbo and the larger turbo (apart from the £££ of buying the larger turbo) would be my time and the time of the tuner.
Aye, I was just referencing my own experience with doing things in stages and the amount of money that starts haemorrhaging away over the course of a build.
Start off with plan/budget A and I'm currently at budget N, verging on budget S, always makes me laugh when people shout loudly that you can do this swap or that build for X number of pounds but fail to mention they've had to throw half as much again at it over the next couple of years just to keep it running.
Hate hijacking threads 😉 but you're so right. People are quick to tell you their successes but can be very quiet when things go wrong.
When was the last time we saw stupink and his home turbo build?
The other young lad who did his own turbo build mapped at RRR?
The fella doing the audi V8 swap?
And tons of others with 2zz swaps.
Can only imagine things went wrong and they quietly moved them on to somebody else.
This is my long term project, I have uprated the engine and gearbox to reach my goal (and probably slightly above it) and everything is overengineered.
I am actually now getting fairly close to my goal for the project and there have been various stages of the process - I have gone almost straight for all the bells and whistles as I wanted to do things right first time.
CSS block is rated to around 600bhp
Uprated gearbox is rated to 295 ft/lbs (although many have run them higher)
Meister R coilover suspension with Whiteline ARBs etc
There will be some NA parts that I won't be using, think including the Mailian mid pipe the exhaust system owes me around £250, although I sold the TTE for more and I will be using the current lightweight backbox for the turbo build.
Will be pulling together all of the costs for the build as well for parts I have used in the modified process - wouldn't really be including any standard maintenance items though such as brake pads/discs/calipers etc.
Just fitted a Malian sports midpipe to the car, its the last part of the NA bits I will be fitting - plan is to go to Santapod and get a few runs with the new engine in and the midpipe along with the current tune.
Next on the list is upgrading the fuelling which will include:
- Upgraded fuel pump
- Fitting the Radium fuel rail
- Convert over to a return system (stock line seems to be AN6, will be looking to run an AN8 return)
- Fuel pressure regulator
- ID1050x injectors
I can then just tweak a few settings in the Link ECU and should then be able to run the injectors without an issue, will probably work better than the current ones that have done 180k miles!
Chargecooler radiator has arrived so will look at how to get that all fitted and get a few connectors for the charge cooler to throttlebody as well as mounts.
The turbo exhaust system is already sorted as I have a Malian turbo back exhaust already in the garage (fits to a standard V band off the back of the turbo and connects up with where a stock backbox fits).
I have just ordered the ID1050x injectors, will look to fit them along with the Radium fuel rail in the stock deadhead configuration.
I am also looking to get a DW300c fuel pump to delivery 340LPH of flow and have a fuel pressure regulator arriving soon.
Currently in the process of modifying a spare intake fuel hat/basket setup, have blocked off the internal FPR (as I will be using an external FPR). Will be getting a few AN fittings to attach to the top of the fuel hat to be able to run a return line from the FPR.
Currently deciding if I want to run the stock feed line to the rail, use the AN6 conversion part on the top hat to convert to AN6 from the tank or to not use any of the stock fuel system and run an AN6 line directly from the pump.
Will just run the stock system initially as I can easily convert over when the time comes - will get the larger ID1050x injectors fitted first and remap the car.
Out of interest why are you going so big on injectors ?
Quote from: thetyrant on January 5, 2021, 11:19Out of interest why are you going so big on injectors ?
The ID1050x is the smallest injector dynamics do I think, injector technology has come a long way to be able to run larger injectors and not worry too much about idle quality. Most of the larger injectors in this sort of range are just rebored smaller injectors, the Injector Dynamic injectors are 100% designed for that size rather than modifying an existing injector.
Looking at online at a few of the fuel injector calculators it would seem that I would need injectors in the 650-850cc range but would always want a bit more headroom.
I also come from a rotary background so would rather have more fuel than not enough! Was running secondary 1680cc injectors on the RX7.
Yes true big injectors have got a lot better than they used to be when running at lower flow so hopefully you dont have any issues, also at least you know you have fuel for 600hp if you wanted...or can run Ethanol :D
Looking forward to seeing how it all progresses once you start forced induction on it :D
Quote from: thetyrant on January 5, 2021, 11:41Yes true big injectors have got a lot better than they used to be when running at lower flow so hopefully you dont have any issues, also at least you know you have fuel for 600hp if you wanted...or can run Ethanol :D
Looking forward to seeing how it all progresses once you start forced induction on it :D
Like a lot of parts on the car, I have decided to overspec them a bit, all fuel parts will be ethanol friendly so can run that in the future if we do get that in the UK!
Have also been looking at the charge cooler fitment, might need to run a smaller battery or relocate the current one (or both!) but that chargecooler should fit ok - will be running a pipe down between the left of the engine and right of that engine lid switch so might not need to even change batteries - stock 053 seems to be too large to fit on the lower subframe (its about 10mm from the gearbox!).
Some of the fittings for the charge cooler setup have arrived, will look to mount the charge cooler radiator and run the initial pipes into the frunk soon once I get some metal for brackets etc. I will then look to run the water lines under the car when I get a chance to the engine bay ready for the charge cooler.
Intake pipework to fit the charge cooler itself will be arriving soon and it looks like I might not need to move the battery but will see how the fitment goes when some of the pipework arrives.
Turbo has also been ordered, went with a GTX2871R in the end, the GTX2867R might have just about flowed enough but went with the slightly larger GTX2871R so there is slightly more headroom before the turbine becomes inefficient. Did also look at the GTX2967 or 71 but although they will also flow well I didn't need that sort of flow as I will be looking to only run the turbo at higher boost for the drag strip and turn it down for the road.
I think I am also going to need to pot the injector connectors into the top of the injector as the connector itself sits quite low down rather than at the top like the stock injectors - meaning it would be hard to fit the PnP injector harness onto it but will still see if its possible.
Currently working through the fuelling parts I need, already have a few parts but just working out the routing and setup to then know what size hose and which fittings I would need.
so cool
Just ordered a race battery and plan to move it into the frunk tub, should free up a lot more space in the engine bay for the charge cooler, was hoping not to need to move it but makes sense to move it forward a bit.
Also ordered some black vinyl spray (like plastidip) to paint up the A pillar windscreen surround and the side vents - I can always remove the paint at a later date if I don't like it though.
Don't fancy mounting it on the rear subframe or behind the rear light?
The less weight upfront the better I would think for both handling and grip at the strip.
You'd be surprised. Short wheel-base cars are very skittish on the strip.
The rocket car, (which wasn't short) still needed to keep the front wheel down and you want the CG well forward of centre for directional stability, so we put the batteries in front of the front wheels.
Some racers actually add ballast up front.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 23, 2021, 18:44You'd be surprised. Short wheel-base cars are very skittish in the strip.
The rocket car, (which wasn't short) still needed to keep the front wheel down and you want the CG well forward of centre for directional stability, so we put the batteries in front of the front wheels.
Some racers actually add ballast up front.
Noted
I have looked at mounting the battery on the subframe and increased the hole size to use the stock battery strap, the battery is only about 10mm away from the gearbox case do I don't want to be running in that close, also I would need to add an extra bracket to be able to attach the J hook to the rear subframe anyway as the stock battery is wider.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RPSxrfuUS5gbCtvKueayaPAl3nFHMWunSFIVsTyhDyKM8Q7tggTHh-9CGemiZ4WRin5KeBWNXJ6WCnqCJgtY3o3KSqCpo4rIPzOX2YLCTcYSlsIJ64zhDlB7FyME4rk5-6AuBuiEDJvMA7yKxhPGh4ThyyZUmOWUCW4FfI1MsFA8rr5ea2ZGrTevdac-Wt9wk51kztIf29w-6vrx1Jlw-9yjBub__YUHDn7GPn33Pn4AwmUJyPzpiIzAx4xphW4tU3gsVIyUQLKlFUpMN-mFgo74qy4mZs2mKa5GQRjlRYWUmSJiM_hW_LkMI6gN9iTJfj0wMEmiQ0XyhXyNnc8y19zTD6EzaCBvMSFpbfd1B8Kel1cPSYlRO1zeN2iUiCe8WvMhxyp6_O5pnO63JHo08MGgBoE2-fOfuaxym2w9CIk9BpshfObBGJLkeQWIUr-tVrvsDLfZespTFrEWoLCv1ax59bbuhjYBuX_O06pmGKyL1-hqbZwoVMARo2on-lBgR7mzU6Pi3ofIARLVWRG3biW8bG7KQ0Z1hJpOa7EnWdVxbQQNI_Pnw-23L0-JDKduWb33efF9dOnoYEc8JAkjPYpVv1Glx9xdSqaI_ZnC5LfraTAQdjd8WR__d_s0K8ov-5AXhcp4nsNrXCZ06upjx_6eXbbTEgiOChhzaFTahToymRB7IfOnbVueHJF0gw=w727-h969-no?authuser=0)
Having looked at a few charge cooler placements I finally decided that I did need to move the battery to give enough space for the charge cooler without it being close to the exhaust etc.
I was thinking of simply mounting it in the rear passenger bin but even with it strapped down its not really 100% safe.
I bought a smaller lighter weight battery so that I can retain the spare wheel etc in the frunk as its a road car. I have seen someone mount a full sized battery in there but they had to remove everything in there. I have driven over to Santapod for the last few runs with nothing in the front at all (so no spare, tool kit or tub etc) - feels quite light at the front which was a bit unnerving.
The new battery will be lighter than the stock one so I will have a bit of weight saving and the weight is moved forward a bit, although I will be added more weight on the rear with the turbo setup - saying that I will also have some additional weight at the front with the charge cooler radiator full of water.
The battery on the lower subframe does allow me to fit the charge cooler where I want it, but would still need to run pipework to it so figure it might be best to simply move it to the frunk.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vab-7m4l1eIhK4RSLyrcCfWapxPVgJYccYjJBPB5HEWU-eNA1awqcX7nxtEyrLUN2acmmlYw0bOxRL-9QE0ob9QzuzT-z6SKcKGkQD-pz9Oi1_ElaQsaO8tyF2xwF8CavPg3aVWX74TdsQIllDJz_1j8daCMP5I23Jb7X7VvLYMHEu4s8GySKEJgqNUU_a9XVDAcSbdGQBDT61Sqjl2JcP-42oMpLPBKc6K5vhJIJ7y1KJYuRrTWn_A31DF36faWd4kRlaGU5DJinc4muAZ2pamsjOVIl0hAwSChXxsniTnp0OGuupQbImB7Eltk8c3ewQQyzFPIg9E6uiOTTSmaJRnb3MwhKx_TWFNbwZ4DzmbvwbozXPoubh619G_Q7nzG2CTsnBxGcqCV1YyL4aJ6e6-CKn1VEZg0_nx6DkjSCF3mLMQN81TKrajR2yievizh0TgntZ7ifrjzOiDOpVS2rvQaDhtX-GdiQbljXM0-LVUlSGc502RumCIZwxQ65pe02u1luXDFhKlCwXpImkRoNXA4br04A1vpUYeirwp7p1_ST8U9n8bSFXzQ5mCOsaaG1G2taO-8G_FoA6Fg2PJ4F4H2QPqWeHEJexhZ_r2d0mJoveDq-ttIZDb8l_ck53r3dD0uxBD9d5PPljSrgYBL2CFQSxN5voG4PK-i01fhsxh5EEQz0mFvvGVMlUdBQg=w727-h969-no?authuser=0)
My charge cooler is in the stock battery location and my battery is behind the rear light. Probably not best for weight distribution although I think it may help offset my fat ass on the drivers seat.
My recommendation is to put as much weight up front as you can. That lightness at the front will only get worse on the strip.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 24, 2021, 13:23My recommendation is to put as much weight up front as you can. That lightness at the front will only get worse on the strip.
Will be moving as much forward as I can, its why I plan to retain the frunk, spare wheel and toolkit etc, will see if there is anything else I can move as well.
Turbo has arrived, was really well packed, the kit also has the various oil and water lines as well as a spare metal 5 bolt flange if needed for exhaust fabrication work along with the balancing report.
(https://i.ibb.co/K019Qpk/20210126-121800.jpg)
Lightweight battery has also arrived as well as a few of the bits to relocate it to the frunk.
Minor update, smaller battery arrived, looks like I can actually fit it sideways and tuck it out the way in the engine bay so I should be able to easily fit the chargecooler in place.
I have also taken off the side vents and tried out some black vinyl spray, plan to do the A pillar as well at some point, because its a vinyl paint I can always return it back to stock if I don't like it.
Just making some very small bits of progress with the build, just working out the water and oil feeds for the turbo, coupled with sorting out the plumbing for the charge cooler and fuel system.
I am also sorting out mounting the smaller battery - need to adapt it over from using screw down M5 threads to battery posts etc and also need to create some mounting points to hold the battery down.
Haven't been able to drive the car for quite a while but will hopefully be allowed to drive it in a few months when the lockdown has been lifted a bit to get some more miles on it.
Ok, I have tried out the much smaller battery, it doesn't really work reliably, although it was a 6.5kg saving over stock.
Instead I have found an off the shelf 002L battery rather than the 053 battery as stock, its the same cranking amps and same spec but its much shorter and slightly wider which isn't an issue - also has a small 2.5kg saving over stock.
This means that I have a normal car battery rather than a special race battery and enough space to fit pipework and the charge cooler. If needed I can drop the 002L battery onto the subframe and tuck it away into the corner if I find any issues with the placement.
(https://i.ibb.co/QCsvwmd/20210219-161058.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/WWMHnZN/20210219-161718.jpg)
Few more minor updates:
Fitted a catch can to the OEM bracket where the charcoal canister went
Few adaptors and blanking plugs are on order to plumb in the catch can - here is the plan for plumbing:
- 16mm to 14mm adaptor on the breather on the back of the camcover to a 14mm line to the catch can that is vented
- 16mm block off on the throttle body
- PCV blocked (will look to get a blanking plug) as its no longer needed owing to the large breather being fully vented
- PCV line will be used as a vacuum/boost source for a vacuum manifold to operate the BOV and FPR
- Evap line is already being used for the MAP sensor (will only run just the MAP on that line for a clean signal)
Deatschwerks DW300c fuel pump ordered
5 bolt to V band adaptor for the back of the turbo ordered
Might test fit the charge cooler over the weekend now I have space and see what sized pipes I need, I think the turbo outlet is a 2" OD, think the charge cooler inlet is 2.25" OD but have the OEM pipework for it to check.
Need to also add in an O2 bung on the Malian turbo downpipe pre cat - there is only 1 post cat so have a 'no weld O2' kit to fit soon. The exhaust won't be the final exhaust for the car, but more than enough to get me going, will look to get a custom one made up after its all running.
Need to order a small pump bracket for the charge cooler pump up front, plus a the radiator pipe is still to arrive for me to be able to fit anything.
Still need to order a pile of AN fittings to be able to fit the FPR but I think I have the lines needed.
Just took the opportunity to test fit the charge cooler with the 90 degree elbow, can easily mount it from a bracket on the battery tray as well as 2 brackets off the bit along the back of the engine bay near the exhaust side.
Will be adding some heat shielding to the charge cooler but there is plenty of space around it and I will be looking to add some extra heat shielding to the exhaust area when its bolted in.
The outlet of the turbo is on the side of the engine bay nearest the back so I can simply run a pipe along the back of the engine bay into the charge cooler - will have one with a BOV port I think.
(https://i.ibb.co/KLCKWn8/20210226-143936.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BnsbMvZ/20210226-143940.jpg)
Few mini updates on this:
Catch can is now fitted, PCV line is blocked off (will use it for a vacuum/boost source at a later date), PCV in the cam cover is blocked off as well. I now have a breather line from the back of the cam cover to the catch can which is sitting behind the rear light on the driver side. The large 16mm port on the throttle body is blanked off (required if running boost).
Will look to perhaps add some additional breathers to the cam cover in due course.
Main thing I have been working on is the suspension, have used some string alignment to adjust the rear toe after the subframe was replaced. Was a HUGE amount out when the rear subframe was bolted in, have now adjusted it to be around 2mm toe in on the rear (around 0.3' toe in). Front toe hasn't changed but its even at 0.3' toe out.
The fronts I have adjusted as well, they were at out the box settings for the Meister Rs which seems to be at 0 degrees. My drive isn't the flattest to zeroed my camber gauge to just in front of the wheels to get an idea but it won't be perfect. The fronts have been adjusted to the maximum of the first set of adjustments possible on the top mounts (there are additional bolt holes for more extreme camber). Checking my camber gauge they are sitting at around -2 degrees, might dial this back to -1.5 degrees at a later date as it is a road car.
Have taken it out on a test drive and it does handle a lot better, mainly happy with the rear toe as the steering wheel is now much straighter - previously with the rear toe being so far out it was at around 10 O'clock. I can also hear the catch can breather 'breathing' at slightly higher RPMs so at least I know its being vented ok, but will look to add additional breather or maybe change out the PCV valve for an open port for a breather filter as it no longer has a vac source to open it.
Small update again, test fitted the Radium fuel rail, fits fine with the correct bolts, also tried to fit the ID1050x injectors. The injector connectors will need to be potted as the plug and play connector fouls the intake manifold or the rocker cover.
This is due to the fact that all ID1050x injectors are the same, but just have different top hats to space them out, the connector itself it half way down the injector rather than at the top with the Denso ones.
Currently in the process of working out the next best course of action - can either pot the connector directly into the injector and seal it on. Another option I am looking at is I have trimmed most of the PNP injector connector away and this might then allow clearance - would then simply glue/adhere the modded connector plug to the injector. So much for specific fit injectors!
I have modified the top hat of the fuel pump assembly as well to allow for a return line and upgrade to an AN6 feed line, the DW300 pump is currently on back order so need to wait a while for that to arrive. Will also look to upgrade the 12v feed line to the pump as well via a relay and direct feed from the battery (fused).
I also see that Santapod is also opening up soon so will look to see if I can book in over the next few months and run the car NA down the strip to see what sort of time the car is running.
I have also planned out basically all of the turbo to intake pipework now, main bit of work needed next is to run the hoses under the car for the charge cooler and fit the charge cooler radiator up front, the rest is fairly plug and play.
I have now fitted some Deka 630cc injectors, they needed a slight modification - the same as the VXR injectors, but after adjusting the master fuel to 6ms vs 15ms for the standard injectors the engine fired up and idled really well.
I did run the injectors through my tester, found that 3 were showing identical flow with 1 running around 2% more so was happy to fit them.
Will update the injector deadtimes next, they are still running on the Denso deadtimes so not ideal, but great that it fired up so I know its close.
Few 'minor' updates on the car:
19mm hoses run under the car
Charge cooler radiator mounted - still waiting for a bung for the bleed port though
Charge cooler pump mounted
Additional thick power wire run from the battery to the frunk to run the charge cooler pump
AN6 return fuel line run from the top of the tank to the side of the engine bay
FPR mounted
DW650 injectors have arrived - will be running these instead of the Deka injectors, the Deka injectors were fine but these DW650 injectors give additional headroom
DW300c fuel pump fitted into a spare fuel hat assembly and wired in (plug and play kit needed to be modified)
I plan to get the return fuel system fitted tomorrow as I can fit the return line to the Radium fuel rail once the injectors are being swapped out.
I have a map ready to go onto the ECU with the DW650 deadtimes and can then fire the car up, set the fuel pressure and check for leaks etc.
Once the bleed port bung has arrived I can then finish off the charge cooler setup in terms of pump and lines and finally fully refit the front bumper.
Won't take long to fit the charge cooler core into the engine bay, I can then trim down the hose and go from there.
Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2021, 08:20Few 'minor' updates on the car:
19mm hoses run under the car
Charge cooler radiator mounted - still waiting for a bung for the bleed port though
Charge cooler pump mounted
Additional thick power wire run from the battery to the frunk to run the charge cooler pump
AN6 return fuel line run from the top of the tank to the side of the engine bay
FPR mounted
DW650 injectors have arrived - will be running these instead of the Deka injectors, the Deka injectors were fine but these DW650 injectors give additional headroom
DW300c fuel pump fitted into a spare fuel hat assembly and wired in (plug and play kit needed to be modified)
I plan to get the return fuel system fitted tomorrow as I can fit the return line to the Radium fuel rail once the injectors are being swapped out.
I have a map ready to go onto the ECU with the DW650 deadtimes and can then fire the car up, set the fuel pressure and check for leaks etc.
Once the bleed port bung has arrived I can then finish off the charge cooler setup in terms of pump and lines and finally fully refit the front bumper.
Won't take long to fit the charge cooler core into the engine bay, I can then trim down the hose and go from there.
Great progress Mitch! Have you included an expansion tank in the cooler circuit?
Quote from: Carolyn on September 2, 2021, 08:46Quote from: m1tch on September 2, 2021, 08:20Few 'minor' updates on the car:
19mm hoses run under the car
Charge cooler radiator mounted - still waiting for a bung for the bleed port though
Charge cooler pump mounted
Additional thick power wire run from the battery to the frunk to run the charge cooler pump
AN6 return fuel line run from the top of the tank to the side of the engine bay
FPR mounted
DW650 injectors have arrived - will be running these instead of the Deka injectors, the Deka injectors were fine but these DW650 injectors give additional headroom
DW300c fuel pump fitted into a spare fuel hat assembly and wired in (plug and play kit needed to be modified)
I plan to get the return fuel system fitted tomorrow as I can fit the return line to the Radium fuel rail once the injectors are being swapped out.
I have a map ready to go onto the ECU with the DW650 deadtimes and can then fire the car up, set the fuel pressure and check for leaks etc.
Once the bleed port bung has arrived I can then finish off the charge cooler setup in terms of pump and lines and finally fully refit the front bumper.
Won't take long to fit the charge cooler core into the engine bay, I can then trim down the hose and go from there.
Great progress Mitch! Have you included an expansion tank in the cooler circuit?
I have an inline fill port I am adding in, although I do believe this charge cooler actually has a fill port/expansion port inbuilt (there are 3 ports in it, inlet, outlet and another).
Project update
Fuel lines are now swapped over to run the car as a return line and the DW650 injectors are fitted, base pressure is set to 43psi.
Charge cooler hoses are run and fairly well attached to the car using P clips - will be rechecking how supported it is once I get the charge cooler fitted.
I think I knocked one of the PAS lines in the front when pulling the hoses through and have a small leak on the return line, might have been leaking a while back but has finally unsealed when knocked. Will order some more lines anyway but the return line is only held on with a spring clip so plan is to remove the spring clip, tidy up the hard line and refit the soft hose with a jubaliee clip - I believe its fairly low pressure.
Not yet tested/fully wired in the chargecooler pump as of yet, its earthed but just need to run a switched 12v to a relay and plug the wiring in and its done so can be sorted another time.
I have driven the car and got the first bit of logging to remap the ECU - car is still NA at the moment but just want to pull together a basic basemap with the larger injectors first.
I think I am basically done with most of the plumbing of the charge cooler, shouldn't be too hard to sort the plumbing for the oil and water for the turbo as I have all of the fittings - I am prerunning any lines I need to.
Plan is to drive the car around a bit NA so get a slightly better basemap, I can then drop the exhaust and bolt on the turbo as I will have a basic map to start from. I will be adjusting the fuelling myself for the low boost runs - will be on wastegate spring to start with and will gradually build up the throttle.
The ECU has knock control as well as an option to autofuel if the fuelling is off from the AFR target, current basemap have very conservative timings and will be rich - should be fine to get the data gradually as I log into those cells.
Here is the current setup/how it will look - the chargecooler lines run down the left of the charge cooler as that is where the connections are and fit between the cooler and the battery.
You can also see the vacuum manifold block on the firewall and the 90 degree fitting on the top right coming out of the fuel rail - still need to tidy it up a bit.
(https://i.ibb.co/SX66qQ0/20211001-150839.jpg)
Looking good, Mitch.
Quote from: Carolyn on October 6, 2021, 08:32Looking good, Mitch.
Its very slowly getting there - the easy bit is bolting the turbo on!
I have trimmed down the chargecooler lines ready for when the chargecooler goes in for final fitment.
I have just run a vacuum/boost line over to the 1:1 RR FPR and started the car up with a rough basemap in it - I foolishly started to tune the map a bit with no vacuum source and just set at 43psi fixed - plugged the vacuum line in now so need to redo the idle cells.
Once I am happy with the basemap and things seem to be good from an NA perspective I will start to look to add in the boosted parts and start the process of adding boost! I just want to get a map roughed in for the NA part of the map so I have a good drivable map to start from before adding boost to it.
I believe the only thing I have left to do is to just finish wiring in the relay and power to the chargecooler pump in the frunk which I can do fairly quickly.
Once the main components are in place I can start to tidy up some of the wiring and pipework once things are bracketed in or run to their final location.
Well....its running and running well now!
Currently logging it at the moment, its very rich on boost by design and boost on the wastegate spring to around 8-9psi so probably low 200bhp at this point.
Just shaking the car down to find any issues, still need to sort what I think is an airlock in the charge cooler system but its gradually getting there the more I drive it, intake temps are still fine on boost though which is good.
Next few jobs apart from the charge cooler bleeding process is:
- Find some lock nuts for the turbo manifold as they are coming undone whilst driving which is a common issue
- Need to tidy up a few of the wires and cables now that its running and check things are still tightened down
- Need to map the boost cells - have already started to pull some fuel out now I have a few logged runs, have also noticed some slight knock every now and then so pulled a degree of timing out - was only 2 cylinder with mild symptoms at 6k rpm, ignition timing is still conservative at the moment.
Quote from: m1tch on March 5, 2022, 16:24Well....its running and running well now!
Currently logging it at the moment, its very rich on boost by design and boost on the wastegate spring to around 8-9psi so probably low 200bhp at this point.
Just shaking the car down to find any issues, still need to sort what I think is an airlock in the charge cooler system but its gradually getting there the more I drive it, intake temps are still fine on boost though which is good.
Next few jobs apart from the charge cooler bleeding process is:
- Find some lock nuts for the turbo manifold as they are coming undone whilst driving which is a common issue
- Need to tidy up a few of the wires and cables now that its running and check things are still tightened down
- Need to map the boost cells - have already started to pull some fuel out now I have a few logged runs, have also noticed some slight knock every now and then so pulled a degree of timing out - was only 2 cylinder with mild symptoms at 6k rpm, ignition timing is still conservative at the moment.
Have you got an expansion tank in the charge cooler circuit?
Quote from: Carolyn on March 5, 2022, 16:27Have you got an expansion tank in the charge cooler circuit?
I have fitted an inline expansion/fill port on one of the main lines, its slowly bleeding out though, have been told that the Bosch cobra pumps are a fair faff to actually prime fully, I can tell there is flow though as I put in some concentrated coolant in and have been topping up with water recently (probably about 100ml every now and then) and from the last drive the coolant in the inline fill port was slightly pink so there is coolant going around.
Also need to sort out an intake to the turbo, currently its just a large filter attached directly to the turbo so the intake is slightly warm.
Is the charge cooler lower than the throttle body and expansion tank, with the pump the lowest piece of the hardware?
Quote from: Call the midlife! on March 5, 2022, 16:39Is the charge cooler lower than the throttle body and expansion tank, with the pump the lowest piece of the hardware?
Pump is sat under the front cross member in the frunk, inline expansion tank/fill port is just above the charge cooler in the engine bay as high as I can get it for the lid to shut etc.
Quote from: m1tch on March 5, 2022, 18:29Pump is sat under the front cross member in the frunk, inline expansion tank/fill port is just above the charge cooler in the engine bay as high as I can get it for the lid to shut etc.
If it's the inline unit I saw in Scotte's supercharged V6, it ain't anything like the air capacity you need. but, then, I haven't seen yours, so I'm guessing.
Quote from: Carolyn on March 5, 2022, 18:33If it's the inline unit I saw in Scotte's supercharged V6, it ain't anything like the air capacity you need. but, then, I haven't seen yours, so I'm guessing.
Have seen it used before on others, think I might get myself one of those vacuum coolant bleed kits to pull any airlocks out etc, am gradualy topping the level up - don't really have the space for anything large.
Quote from: m1tch on March 8, 2022, 07:45Have seen it used before on others, think I might get myself one of those vacuum coolant bleed kits to pull any airlocks out etc, am gradualy topping the level up - don't really have the space for anything large.
Why not?
There was 3 liters of V6 a rotrex and a charge cooler in mine
I think the air pockets have been worked out the system now but will keep checking, have ordered some silicone joiners and elbows to make a better intake to the turbo, intake temps are stable but are just higher are the turbo is drawing in air from around the manifold which isn't ideal.
Have also been chasing down a few exhaust leaks and have flattened off the 5 bolt to V band adaptor as it wasn't perfectly flat so not sealing correctly.
I also have a leak on the return line from the steering rack to the PS pump, I have found where its leaking and have a replacement line although can't get the 17mm flare nut off at the moment so its currently soaking.
Once the PS line is sorted I will be working on a few service items, new discs and pads for the front brakes, tidy up some wiring and brackets etc.
The car has been road tuned and the fuel table seems to now be there in terms of fuelling up to around 7psi or so (weakest wastegate spring fitted). Will also get the MAC valve fitted soon but not rush as its working ok so far with just the wastegate plumbed directly into the turbo compressor housing.
Plan to get over to a Santapod run what ya brung event soon, seems to be on most weekends at the moment but need to get a few bits tidied away and will see what the car does on its lowest power setting.
Quote from: Carolyn on March 5, 2022, 18:33If it's the inline unit I saw in Scotte's supercharged V6, it ain't anything like the air capacity you need. but, then, I haven't seen yours, so I'm guessing.
Sorry -could you please explain the need for air capacity in a either the pump or header tank? Is there a formula that can be applied?
Quote from: jvanzyl on March 22, 2022, 14:11Sorry -could you please explain the need for air capacity in a either the pump or header tank? Is there a formula that can be applied?
It depends on the volume of liquid in the system. The liquid expands as it heats up and and insufficient room for expansion in the header (expansion) tank will over pressurise the system. If the system has, say, five litres of coolant, I'd want about 1/3 litre expansion room. I'm sure there's a formula but, you need to allow for the expansion of the liquid and the air atop the expansion tank.
I have now changed over the leaking PS line and awaiting some Total DA to arrive to refill the system although I did have a bit spare from when I was topping the system up so put that in (although too low to drive on), no leaks so far from the replacement line.
I have also installed the 3 port MAC valve which will allow me to control boost, currently in the process of trying both open and closed loop setups to try out once the car is back up and running again with the PS fluid topped up.
Currently have the 7psi spring in at the moment (lowest pressure) and will look to aim for around 12-14 psi initially (although might not make it with the lower pressure spring) with boost by gear enabled to reduce the boost in 1st and a bit in 2nd to avoid gearbox issues.
As a guess, at around 12-14psi the engine will be making around 280bhp, so plenty to try out at Santapod, want to get the boost control setup so I can run the car at both wastegate pressure and higher pressure to see the difference.
Main thing is to see how much quicker the car is between spring pressure and a bit of boost to then work out what sort of boost/power the engine needs to run the goal of an 11 second pass, here are my guesses though:
Stock = 15 second pass
Low boost 7psi ~ 220 = high 13 second pass
12/14psi ~ 280 = high 12 second pass
16-18psi ~ 350 = Low 12 second pass/high 11 second pass
19-21 psi ~ 380 = mid 11 second pass
21psi+ ~ 400 = mid to low 11 second pass
The aim for me is to bump up the boost until I run an 11 second pass, at the lower boost levels this will be road tuned and self mapped as it currently is, anything over 14psi I will be looking to get the car on the dyno to be fully tuned as anything over that boost level I will be approaching the limits of the gearbox in terms of torque (although still well within safety margins) - but have no way of checking the torque going through the box.
Still waiting for more PS fluid to arrive but there is still some in the tank so have been able to drive it a bit here and there.
Have roughed out an open loop boost table and have used it for the closed loop table, setting up the PID as a default setting.
Closed loop worked well and the car boosted to 177kpa or around 11psi,think this is a far as the closed loop went as its limited to adding up to 15% duty cycle to the MAC valve - have adjusted the table with this knowledge as I can see what duty cycle was needed at what RPM and boost levels.
Turbo seems to be at full boost at around 3.5-4k rpm, closed loop initially runs the wastegate at 90% duty cycle to spool up the turbo as quick as possible before moving to the closed loop setup.
I have also setup boost by gear as well, plan is the following in terms of boost targets:
1st gear - wastegate spring pressure
2nd gear - 12psi (stock 2nd gear so don't want to put too much torque through it)
3rd + 4th gear - currently 12 psi but might bump to 14 psi
5th gear + 6th gear - currently 12 psi and might keep at this level, won't really be using these gears during the 1/4 mile
Fuelling it also being adjused using logging and the mixture map to adjust individual cells, initially very rich vs target AFR but is a safer place to be to then remove a bit of fuelling. Also good news that at 11-12psi of boost the fuel system can still deliver a lot of fuel so plenty there as I increase the boost levels.
Good work keep it up :D
PS fluid has arrived and toppped up, no leaks so far which is good!
Only done a few tweaks to the car over the weekend, mainly cleaning and fitting a windscreen aerial.
I also have a Blitz Nur spec exhaust to fit, ideally wanted a Kakimoto exhaust but this one will do for the time being, will look to fit that soon, probably easiest to take the front bumper off as the midpipe is on at the moment.
I have also got some slightly more flexible 19mm hose as one of the connections on the charge cooler is fairly tight and basically loops back on itself so might look to try and remove some of the tension on the fitting by running a line under the charge cooler and round. Works fine in its current configuration but working through possible issues in the future.
Next few things on the list will probably be front brakes and pads and continue mapping it for the current boost levels.
Went out to do some logging again last night, steering felt good with the new fluid and I didn't see any leaks but will check the level and pipework later now its had time to sit for a bit.
Currently dialling in the wastegate base table for the closed loop, its almost there in terms of boost vs target, have the base table a bit too low as a starting point at the moment but it does hold around 11psi of boost.
Need to work on a better intake to the turbo next (pipes and connectors have arrived), I can see the intake air temps post intercooler getting slightly warm (although not hot), currently there is just a filter on the front of the turbo as a starter for 10, plan to get some pipework in there and feed air in from behind the passenger light or anywhere else that isn't right next to a hot exhaust and turbo!
On the up side I can see the intake temps just creep up during the drive rather than suddenly spike on boost - shows that the charge cooler is working but just needs to be fed colder air to begin with.
Current boost level is set to 180kpa or around 11.6psi boost, I believe I have a 6-7psi wastegate spring in there so might be at the limit of what the spring can cope with, will plan to get a base table sorted for this spring and then swap out to a slightly heavier spring for higher boost at a later date when I get some dyno time booked in.
Currently the closed loop is maxxing out at its maximum of +20% wastegate duty cycle on top of the base figures from around 4k rpm upwards, have tweaked the table to start at a higher base from mid RPM as I think it might only need slightly more wastegate duty to get to a stable 180kpa (which is the target).
If the turbo is running at that boost level, checking the compressor map on the efficency islands it should be flowing enough for between 280bhp and around 325bhp or so.
Next up will be intake and change over the exhaust though (although no rush on the exhaust as its actually heavier than the one I currently have). Also want to do a slight replumb of one of the charge cooler lines but the intake is the next main thing on the list.
Minor update, 180kpa seems to be mapped happily, have sorted out boost by gear and am running 180kpa in 1st, 2nd, 5th and 6th and 200kpa in 3rd and 4th. Mapping in terms of fuel seems to be ok up to 4k rpm but can't road map any further owing to the speed the car is at above that (I always keep within the speed limits, although might get to them quicker than others!).
Charge cooler has been sorted, I actually needed to leave a small air gap in the filler neck setup for air to escape to - intake temps are now so cold that in some cases the air intake temp fuel correction is adding a small bit of fuel even when the charge cooler is in the hot engine bay its cold to the touch.
Using the Borgwarner matchbot for turbo sizing it also shows the possible BHP and torque at different boost levels as well as the air flow through the engine.
Looks like at 12psi the engine will be making around 270-280bhp with 14psi slightly higher at the 280-310 mark, if this is the case and the car weight being around 1 ton I might be able to dip into the high 11s at this power level.
I think the current stock (7psi) wastegate spring might be able to take slightly more boost as it was controlling 200kpa ok but might just run with this and see what I can do on the next run what ya brung.
How have you configured your boost by gear settings David? Have you fitted a sensor to the box somehow or just by approximation/extrapolation?
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 3, 2022, 08:11How have you configured your boost by gear settings David? Have you fitted a sensor to the box somehow or just by approximation/extrapolation?
The Link ECU works out the gear using the RPM vs speed - I have gone through the logs and manually set these from the data gathered from the road tuning so far but there is an option to do it automatically. I wanted to make sure that it didn't try and boost above 12psi in 2nd gear to avoid issues with the torque going through the box.
Drove the car into work this morning logging as I went, a nice increase in the number of logged values to average out each cell, think most of the off boost table is either sorted of tweaked slightly to target - most were spot on or very close so happy with the map.
I can run the closed loop lambda setting in the Link ecu to adjust the fuelling on the fly if its off target but trying to get things as close as possible without it switched on - drove fine this morning without any auto fuelling options enabled.
Only issues I have come up with so far is some of the manifold and turbo bolts coming slightly loose - have some locking washers to hopefully sort this and the charge cooler is sorted and happy now so thats a win.
Only thing standing between the engine going to full power now is a wastegate spring change and some changes to some figures in the ECU.
Looking at the logs in terms of fuelling, the engine needs an extra 5% of fuel for every 20kpa of boost based on the mapped out 180kpa data and the data I have for the 200kpa line. Will need to get it dyno tuned for the higher RPM figures but will be able to log these on the drag strip. Fuelling map is currently running rich so its more of a case of pulling fuel out rather than worrying about the engine running lean.
Tidy, I wondered if there was anything from the SMT side of things to determine gear position that was also on the standard gearbox.
Glad to hear the chargecooler has worked out in the end, i thought it should do the job but as you know i never got to try it myself.
Keep up the good work :)
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 3, 2022, 13:20Tidy, I wondered if there was anything from the SMT side of things to determine gear position that was also on the standard gearbox.
There might be an additional gear sensor for the SMT setup, probably on the actuator, I don't think there is any sort of gear position on the standard box.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 3, 2022, 14:38Glad to hear the chargecooler has worked out in the end, i thought it should do the job but as you know i never got to try it myself.
Keep up the good work :)
Yeah, its working really well actually, its ice cold even after the drive to work, actually having an issue where its too cold and the ECU is adding fuel to correct it!
Plan to go to Santapod tomorrow to see what the car will do, still have a few leaks at the moment owing to the turbo to manifold bolts loosening slightly - will be rechecking everything after I get there anyway.
Another annoying leak is actually from the turbo compressor housing that is inline with the bracket for the wastegate actuator - means there is very little space for the clamps so might need to rethink where that is in its current clocked orientation - might be able to flip the bracket.
If not already sorted i can recommend Nordlock washers for the turbo/manifold etc bolts if they keeping coming loose.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 13, 2022, 09:16If not already sorted i can recommend Nordlock washers for the turbo/manifold etc bolts if they keeping coming loose.
Yeah Nordlocks are on the list, gradually working through the various issues and working out which parts I might need to redesign/support differently. The exhaust manifold is now happy and nothing has loosened off since sorting a few spring washers on them so the next part to loosen off is the bolts between the turbo and manifold.
Will probably also look to upgrade the engine mounts as well as I think some of the issue is that the engine rocks every now and then if the clutch is pulled in too quickly as it grabs due to the higher torque rating (although is still light on the pedal).
I can recommend the Lotus elise/exige Powerflex void filler engine mount inserts which fit the Mr2 as well, i ran the rear one on my car helped stabilize engine and sort gearchange issue midcorner due to engine flapping about on stock mounts, i never got around to fitting the front one so if you fancy going that route ive got a new unused front kit in garage just let me know, its this one: https://www.powerflexsuspensionbushes.co.uk/powerflex-front-engine-mount-insert-pff34-603-for-lotus-exige-series-2-90081-p.asp
Rear mount insert i left in car but this is it: https://www.powerflexsuspensionbushes.co.uk/powerflex-rear-engine-mount-insert-pff34-602-for-lotus-exige-series-2-90080-p.asp
Much easier and more compliant for nvh than solid mounts.
If you havent already its worth fabricating a mount to support the turbo from underneath, helps take the strain off manifold and exhaust.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 13, 2022, 11:36I can recommend the Lotus elise/exige Powerflex void filler engine mount inserts which fit the Mr2 as well, i ran the rear one on my car helped stabilize engine and sort gearchange issue midcorner due to engine flapping about on stock mounts, i never got around to fitting the front one so if you fancy going that route ive got a new unused front kit in garage just let me know, its this one: https://www.powerflexsuspensionbushes.co.uk/powerflex-front-engine-mount-insert-pff34-603-for-lotus-exige-series-2-90081-p.asp
Rear mount insert i left in car but this is it: https://www.powerflexsuspensionbushes.co.uk/powerflex-rear-engine-mount-insert-pff34-602-for-lotus-exige-series-2-90080-p.asp
Much easier and more compliant for nvh than solid mounts.
If you havent already its worth fabricating a mount to support the turbo from underneath, helps take the strain off manifold and exhaust.
Awesome! Yeah I have seen some of those inserts but didn't know the exact part number, I wouldn't go 100% solid and I think BRD does different poly mounts with different hardnesses but not wanted to go that route yet.
A turbo mount is in the pipeline - have got some support bars with rose joints but think I can probably make something using the OEM lift points or the OEM NA exhaust manifold points from the bottom. Was always on the cards to sort out a mount for the turbo but wanted to get everything together first and working so I can see if I need to change any of the routing before adding brackets etc.
Still having severe issues with the connection to the turbo - there isn't enough room for the boost pipe to really fit fully onto the turbo due to the bracket for the wastegate - its just come off again after securing it after it came off yesterday.
Car has been working fine with multiple days going to and from work but has decided to have this issue the day before I am booked in.
Will spend all my remaining spare time on trying to sort the issue today, car is mapped for the boost as its been fine for weeks, might just have to turn it down tomorrow if it keeps coming off.
Have you tried Mikalor Supra hose clamps?
Quote from: Alex Knight on May 13, 2022, 14:05Have you tried Mikalor Supra hose clamps?
Its already running those T clamps - made sure I fitted those to as many fittings as I could, think the issue is that I can't get the hose and clamp on far enough due to the bracket in terms of where the compressor outlet is located.
I am going to have to try and remove the bracket (there is the oil feed line in the way of 1 of the bolts), fit the hose and clamp and then reattach the bracket and hope it holds.
Minor update on the build, the drag day didn't go that well in terms of times but I have learnt a fair amount.
The day before I went I basically reconnected up the turbo to charge cooler hoses, needed to take off and bend the wastegate bracket slightly for clearances to get the hose and clip onto the compressor housing fully. I believe this has now sorted the issue of the hose blowing off at higher boost levels. The issue this then causes that that the bracket was slightly bent so the preload on the wastegate flapper was now not correct so it didn't make the same levels of boost as it did previously - it boosted ok to 12psi but couldn't go more than around 14psi whereas before it was boosting up stably to 18psi.
I ran the car on the lower boost at the drag strip, 12psi as the base boost and then whatever boost the car made in 3rd and 4th.
Times were terrible as I couldn't get a good launch - I've never actually tried to launch from 1st as I have been mapping in 2nd and 3rd for higher boost runs, coupled with the clutch being fairly grabby.
I have logged each of the runs but didn't really have a chance to change much at the track as I wanted to get as much data in as I could. I found that I had the boost control still in full force in 1st gear so the reason why it was getting no traction is the fact that the clutch was engaging, loaded up the engine and trigger the closed loop boost control so was basically engaging the clutch at something like 200bhp in 1st trying to go through 225 rear tyres.
Safe to say that I have now turned off boost control in 1st gear as much as possible so it should now only run up to stock spring pressure and hopefully further up the RPM range.
I also heard a few odd noises at certain boost level on the gearbox side of the engine so after about 8 back to back runs I decided to stop - it was actually really quiet so I could have done a huge number more but didn't want to break anything!
When I got back yesterday I started correcting fuelling maps, needed to pull about 6% of fuel out above 5k rpm which was to be expected.
I then readjusted the preload on the wastegate and it still didn't 100% work, worked through all of the pipework again and found that I believe my original Baileys DV26 BOV might have been the issue. The BOV is fairly old now and I don't know what preload spring it has in it but I doubt its very heavy. I believe that what might be happening is that the BOV is being forced open slightly at higher boost levels meaning its actually bleeding off boost with the turbo trying to make more to compensate.
I have now swapped it out for a different one which is much stouter, cleaned and rebuilt it a few months back and fitted it yesterday, it has made a difference so I think the BOV might have been leaking slightly.
I have also got a slight leak on my cam cover gasket, might be due to pressure build up, I am now looking at other options for additional breathers to be added to avoid this issue.
What was your best time?
Car just passed its MOT with no advisories at 180k miles, sports cat fitted as well so happy with the result.
This year I plan to get it fully mapped on a dyno and try and get to Santapod more - might still get a chance soon to go again and make sure its not trying to make 200+bhp in 1st gear so I can get off the line!
Sorry its been a while in posting updates on this! Just working through a few things with exhaust leaks, I have been able to get it down Santapod again and run it at around 12psi - ran a fairly slow 14.3 second pass
@ 96mph.
Main reason to go to Santapod a week or so ago was to get some logging done, found that after fitting the slightly uprated engine mount there is more mechanical vibration going through the car. This in turn has meant that the knock control was overagressive and pulled a LOAD of timing out the engine - the full 5 degrees across all cylinders. This also meant that the engine didn't hit its boost target in 3rd due to all the timing being cut.
I have now been readjusting the knock control to back the gain down a bit coupled with taking the turbo manifold off and flattening all of the flanges. The turbo manifold had a slight lift at each end of the flange so things weren't sealing perfectly. Spent a few days manually flattening the manifold and reinstalling - just taken it back out again and its sealed up far better and the adjustments to the knock control are now showing things to be as expected.
The engine is still tuned very conservatively in terms of both boost and timing, fuelling however was spot on when logging the runs which is great to see.
I am now just starting to tidy up a few of the lines and wires etc as it all seems fairly happy, upgrading to a better rear engine mount has meant less engine movement which in turn has meant that the exhaust isn't moving as much which means that the exhaust is staying sealed as it should.
I also used some timeserts/helicoils at the top of the M8 bolts for the manifold to turbo - the turbo has M8 holes, the manifold has M10 holes. Was sealing up ok before but things were at a slight angle, the helicoils act like a spacer to centre the bolts in the M10 holes and the turbo sits perfectly square now.
Next on the list is to just get everything checking over and tidied up, don't think I will have a chance to get back to Santapod until later in the year now but its getting much closer to a stage where I am happy with the setup.
Currently set to run:
1st gear - wastegate spring
@ 8psi
2nd gear - 12psi
3rd gear - 18psi
4th gear - 18psi
Quote from: m1tch on July 6, 2022, 12:41Car just passed its MOT with no advisories at 180k miles, sports cat fitted as well so happy with the result.
This year I plan to get it fully mapped on a dyno and try and get to Santapod more - might still get a chance soon to go again and make sure its not trying to make 200+bhp in 1st gear so I can get off the line!
Welcome back!!
Good work 😀 my advice forget the drag strip it's not what mr2's are for, throw it at some corners on a sprint,hillckimb or trackday 😀