Whifbits turbo or Black label?

[dan944]

So...firstly let address the whifbits turbo kit.  it has been discontinued, but after speaking to paul whiffin via email, i have been informed that they are willing to re-make the kit happy days for us.
he will need a car for 4 weeks to build the kit up, this will then be the prototype.  due to the fact that the manifold will not be mandrel bent instead of the log type he has said it will be around £600 more than it used to be.  that means an estimated price of £2,600.  for that you get:
Whifbitz log style T4 304 stainless steel manifold
Mitsubishi TD04 T25 modified with larger compressor wheel
Goodridge braided oil feed hoses and fittings
Whifbitz oil feed kit using Goodridge hoses and fittings
Aluminium pipework from turbo to throttle body
Silicon hoses and clamps
Whifbitz 2.5″ stainless steel downpipe with v band clamp, downpipe is designed to bolt on to the standard exhaust position, power figures were achieved with a standard exhaust fitted
K&N air filter and polished aluminium intake pipe
K&N breather filter
NGK iridium spark plug set

So basically an ecu upgrade of some sort and an upgraded/modified sump are required to get it running. (correct me if i'm wrong, engineer not a mechanic  )  he has also said he can make a kit with an intercooler if required.

The other option is the Black Label kit sold by turbokits.com in the states. its worth checking out on the site.  i think i am already a fan of this kit. it is pretty much a complete kit (again correct me if im wrong) and is about £2400 delivered (not including import tax) for that you get.
BLF Journal Bearing T28 Turbo
Cast 4-in-1 High Flow Sil Moly Turbo Manifold
Polished Mandrel Bent Stainless Downpipe w/ High Flow CAT
Polished Mandrel Bent Stainless Exhaust Pipe (No Muffler)
Functional Ram Air Intake Using Side Air Scoop
Polished T6061 Mandrel Bent 3" Aluminum Intake Pipe
Polished T6061 Mandrel Bent 2.5" Aluminum Charge Pipe
K&N High Flow Air Filter
Forge Billet BOV
AEM FIC (Fuel Injector Controller)
AEM FIC Wire In Harness (Plug n Play Available)
(4) 440cc Denso Factory Clip Drop-In Injectors
Water / Meth Injection Kit for DIY Installation
Stainless Braided Oil Feed & Drain Lines
Stainless Braided Water Lines & Fittings
Stainless T-Bolt Clamps
4 Ply Silicone Couplers
All Hardware & Fittings for Install
Detailed Step by Step Installation Instructions

it is designed to be a bolt on kit. if you speak to the guys there they seem real friendly and are willing to make changes if you already have some bits.  The AEM FIC comes provided with a pretty decent map to get you going as well.

So...my concerns and Queries:
water meth injection? sounds like hassle. can i run this without it or an intercooler until i fabricate an intercooler fittment?

Import tax, can anyone enlighten me? all seems very vague to me.

BLF journal bearing turbo..is this any good or a cheap knockoff?

i know theres threads already on this but wanted to make people aware of the whifbits kit remake and hoping for advice personal to my questions.

My plan is to be rolling to Ding Day with over 200Whp  ...we'll see.

Thanks in advance.

[1979scotte]

I like cast manifolds they are much less likely to brake.
Imho a turbo kit must have an intercooler or charge cooler.
The TTE turbo kit had both an intercooler and cast manifold the guys at Toyota aren't stupid.
If you want 200 @ the wheels you will need a custom free flowing exhaust.
Stock exhaust was the first thing SP threw in the bin when they were looking for more power from the TTE kit.
Also some kind of engine management is a must.
You dont want water meth at that power level it's just a pain added expense that a charge cooler will do cheaper and be more reliable.
From the states you are looking at nearer to 3k with shipping and taxes.

I think you could put your own kit together for similar money.

ECUmaster Det3 piggyback
Cast manifold
Astra? VXR injectors
eBay charge cooler
Fiat rad
Garrett gt2554r turbo

You need more than just that but it's 1500 quid for that lot I reckon.
That gives you another 1500 quid to play with before you get to these prices.

Fitting on top I presume I paid 600 ish for my Turbo to be fitted.

[1979scotte]

Double post

[shnazzle]

Don't forget all the "extras" like BOV, gaskets, fittings (bungs,t-pieces,etc),oil change, oil filter, coolant, mapping...seems little but it all adds up to hundreds

[1979scotte]

Don't forget all the "extras" like BOV, gaskets, fittings (bungs,t-pieces,etc),oil change, oil filter, coolant, mapping...seems little but it all adds up to hundreds

Agreed.
Still less than 3k in parts. Fitting and mapping less than a grand.
Being generous 4k total.

If the OP is dead set on either of the kits get the whifbitz.
Uk sourced easier come back if you have issues.

[shnazzle]

Don't forget all the "extras" like BOV, gaskets, fittings (bungs,t-pieces,etc),oil change, oil filter, coolant, mapping...seems little but it all adds up to hundreds

Agreed.
Still less than 3k.

If the OP is dead set on either of the kits get the whifbitz.
Uk sourced easier come back if you have issues.

I like the idea of "local produce" for this.
So my vote goes for whif.
Also let's you choose ECU.
Aem doesn't always get great reviews

[dan944]

ill be fitting it myself. its a second car so and i have a car club workshop at my disposal so shouldnt be a huge issue.

putting my own kit together is something i want to do and know it'll work out cheaper. but this is why the Black label kit is so attractive.  it comes with everything, full exhaust with a very sporty cat and no silencer, all hardware and fittings. and everything is made to fit. the intercooler is my only concern.
but looking at the images on the site it wouldnt be too hard to fit one in using some extra pipework.

http://www.turbokits.com/Toyota/MR2_Spyder/Turbo_Kits/Black_Label_Fabrication_Turbo_Kit/942/

ive asked for the water meth kit to be removed (will check out the price change) and he also does a military discount so will let people know if theres and mil blokes on here.

i have a unichip Q ready to be wired in if anyone can help with that although the map on it wont be great for getting it running.

my only issue with putting it all together would be cataloging every single item required. ill definitely be upgrading to an obx sump whilst im at it. i think thats a no brainer.

whif produces the goods i know but 4 weeks and £2600 to then get my car back, have to fit it all. and then get a custom exhaust made and still sort out the mapping.   

[1979scotte]

Have you been on spyderchat to see what the yanks think of it?

[dan944]

no,

fair point, i forgot about those guys, will brows now.


just been on the spyder chat and there isnt a lot of feedback but the feedback that is there is all good.

also explains a lot about the water meth set up, there are alternatives though, theyve left space to fit a water air intercooler

[m1tch]

You can get most of the parts fairly easily off the shelf in terms of turbo, wastegates, injectors etc, only issue I had is getting a manifold, managed to get a T3 one but found it hard to find one in Europe to avoid import costs etc.

You can of course buy everything from MWR but at a rather high cost!

[dan944]

my current quote is just about £3000 including shipping costs and import duty/VAT. thats with an Apexi power fc instead f the AEM FIC. buy right or buy twice!! haha

http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?45819-100-110HP-80-Ft-Lbs-9-PSI-Introducing-the-NEW-Black-Label-Fab-Turbo-Kit/page12&highlight=black+label+fab

heres some of the reviews if people are interested. i think im willing to be a guinea pig on this one and hopefully be able to show it off as soon as the end of April

[shnazzle]

I was trying to hold back my personal opinion on this but here goes;

The turbo spins at ridiculous rates and they're no joke to replace. Get a reliable one with a good name.

If water meth is at the basis of your solution for keeping knock and temps down,you're not doing it right. It's a supplement to push power over the "norm" so you can temporarily push higher advance. Not as a safety feature.

Piggybacks are rank pieces of crap with very few exceptions. Plenty of good turbo setups out there running piggyback but how many of them are 100% issue free and run to the best of their ability and within big safety margins?
It's a massive change to the system for anything over 180ish hp. It needs a standalone or a very good piggyback and mapped by very good people and a good boost controller.

The only "kit" I'd blindly trust is the TTE due to its very elaborate components for "just" 50ish more hp and the fact that Toyota themselves made the piggyback to work with the ECU that they programmed.
The rest...nice as a basis but I'd go custom every time.

..soap box put away. :-) :lurk:

[1979scotte]

Ok the PFC is old hat these days and I wouldn't want one.
Get on the on ECUmaster group buy. £1000 for a state of the art standalone supplied fitted mapped drive in drive out.
PFC base maps are usually only good for start up just in case you thought it would be perfect without a trip to the Dyno.

Is that with water meth still?
Charge cooler is my preferred option.

No idea about that Turbo.
I would want something from a major manufacturer.
Garrett/Borg Warner/Mitsubishi etc.

You seem to really like this black label kit and I really can't see why tbh.
Different strokes for different folks.
Best of luck.

[dan944]

Please, opinion is what i want. 

i was never particularly happy with the piggyback option and the price for the Apexi and software and injectors is reasonable, hence the upgrade.

when you say about the turbo spinning at a ridiculous rate, could this not be replaced further down the line? i cant particularly justify upgrading right now, but if they are supplying Garret turbo upgrades then surely this wouldnt be a huge job later on?

It seems that a water/air intercooler would be the best option for cooling but as im very unexperienced with forced induction at the moment that was again a "down the line" job.  what would be your choice of cooling?

isn't the TTE kit discontinued?  what i want is a pretty complete kit that can be fitted and run fairly reliably until the more power gremlin gets the better of me.  thats when ill be looking at water/air cooler, uprated clutch and without a doubt a garret hybrid of some sort.
the whifbits kit just doesnt supply enough to bolt on and go, so to speak.

im very happy taking opinions by the way and i do definitely understand that custom is the ideal, what im looking at at the moment is a comprimise.

[dan944]

just to add, the main attraction is completeness.  like i said i do have a car club and workshop to use but still only basic tools and virtually zero expense items to fall back on.

thank you for the heads up on the ECU. did not realise it was fitted and mapped. if i used the kit as a base and removed PFC then i could get on that GB at the same cost.

next issue is intercooler.  how/where do you guys run a standard intercooler for it to be effective?

thanks for this, its much appreciated.

[1979scotte]

You just mentioned reliable.
I had 2 turbos give up in 2 years.
Shnazzle can't get his boost control to work properly.
SuperArt had a turbo go.
Wotugunnado has had problems.
Rbuckingham
ChrisGB
JRichards

All had problems with turbos.
The list goes on.

They can be reliable once you get them going right but getting them there can give you a headache.

I am a terrible nay sayer and the blacklabel kit may work perfectly out of the box but I find these things rarely do.

I am currently having my V6 swap supercharged god knows what sort of headaches that's going to give me.

[1979scotte]

next issue is intercooler.  how/where do you guys run a standard intercooler for it to be effective?

thanks for this, its much appreciated.

Toyota mounted an intercooler under the engine where it got some cool air.

For me a charge cooler is preferred.
More expensive and requires a pump and front mounted radiator but will cool much more effectively. Water is a much more efficient medium for heat transfer.

[dan944]

just a note on that, i used the pretext "fairly" i probably should have used "relatively"
reliable as far as turbos go.

thanks for the cooler advice, will look into this but for initial ease i'll probably look at a TTE style intercooler until things settle in a bit.

this might sound ridiculous but will a car run at all with a turbo set up but standard ECU, im talking, for example, enough to drive from southampton to....lets say cambridge? 

[shnazzle]

Thanks for being so open and accepting of opinions. It always works out better. Good man.

The cooling is a key aspect to forced induction. Your intake and exhaust temperatures can reach dangerous levels.
But you CAN run a low boost solution on the stock ECU and without any cooling. So you could add a small turbo just to give you a little bit more torque in overtakes and what not. But we're talking a few psi and maybe 170hp or so.
Maybe it's enough for some.

The piggyback is odd in that the stock ECU does not know about the turbo. So piggyback goes "I want X fuel please" and then the stock ECU goes "turbo? What turbo? You're getting Y fuel and that's final". Now there's normal fuel adjustments and knock detection etc at play to smooth that out a bit but basically you're pushing the stock ECU far beyond its calibrations.
No about of piggybacking changes that.

So, 1000 for a standalone fitted and mapped and maybe another 1600 or so in kit is probably the best option on the table right now.

A gt2556 turbo, or hell,a td04, a small intercooler, log manifold and piping/fittings would get you a long way.

[dan944]

The reason i asked about running on stock ECU is purely to get me to cambridge to purchase the GB ECU and then remap for what i imagine should be a beautiful drive home 

One of the main problems is getting the car to places, i.e Exhaust Fab to get work done that i can not.  how do you get around this? if i build from scratch then i would be dealing with getting the car somewhere with no exhaust.

also, i could do with instructions 

[1979scotte]

Tbh once it's all fitted best bet is a transporter.

You can run very low boost on stock ECU but it is risky.
They do it on the MK2 V6 with TRD supercharger.

It is a decent question.
I have only ever had kits with maps already installed or had everything done by the mechanic so it wasn't a problem.

Btw you need to add a few quid to the ECUmaster price.
You will need a boost control solenoid for the best results.
Unless you just run spring pressure but this is a bit old school.

[dan944]

Just take all your stuff with you and drive the car to the place with the stock exhaust etc in place. You can drive the car with everything fitted. with the exception of bigger injectors maybe. Although...maybe it will just trim your fuel (a lot) as you go. It'll start pig rich though.

its highly likely i'm being and idiot but here we go, you mean fit everything an drive it to the garage? wouldnt i be missing an exhaust as it wouldnt fit the turbo setup?

Btw you need to add a few quid to the ECUmaster price.
You will need a boost control solenoid for the best results.
Unless you just run spring pressure but this is a bit old school.

estimation on the amount of quids required? is this something i would fit before going there? (boosty stuff is very new territory)


So rather than doing assignments like i should be ive been researching boost and vacuum, also sourcing parts and pricing.

decided on the Garrett t2560, -£640 ish delivered
GB ECUmaster standalone  £1000
cast manifold from belgium  £150ish
found some water and oil lines with all gaskets and Tee pieces for £69 on fleabay
OBX sump i think is wise, £250
going initially with an intercooler that will sit pretty much between the rear inserts, probably cut all that out in fact to get some nice airflow. putting £150 aside for this unless i decide to put a mishimoto in wich i think will look nive peeking through the hole.
turbo flanges  £35 fleabay
boost gauge £30 ish
£150 set aside for hardware and pipework
Need a recommend on BOV dont want to be spending ridiculous moneys, also recirc or atmospheric? id like to hear it, but im a child 
am i missing anything? and i dont mean niceties, im talking things i 100% need.

thanks for all your help guys. youve swayed me from what i thought was a dead cert!
i'm going to document this as well as possible with a very exact list of every component and will put it up in the DIY turbo thread. (admin-if this needs moving then please do, i feel it has digressed)

[Justin.D]

Following with interest.

I have just worked with a mate to turbo his MX-5. It's rapid and twitchy. He went for the ME221 standalone ECU (which I believe they are working on an MR2 loom). We're off to MTECH tomorrow to get it professionally mapped

We have it running fairly well currently. Nick is a former LPG fitter and has programmed many (100's) of piggyback ECU's for this, so we were able to program the ME221 ourselves relatively well, but you can't beat the professionals. He now works for Rolls Royce building the Trent engines which are fitted to many aircraft

I'll post results and findings tomorrow. I'm thinking I need to turbo my MR2 so we're back on a level playing field. Good luck and please document what you can as I am really interested in this

[shnazzle]

Obx sump may not be necessary.
Much cheaper to just have a bung welded into your existing sump. if you want to save money that is.

Obx is better obviously but certainly not necessary.

If you can get your hands on a TTE replica intercooler they're ideally placed for the size. Otherwise you end up with this awkward cramming on an intercooler in the back somewhere.
I'd opt for cheap eBay chargecooler piped to a small Fiat radiator before I went down that route.

Have you considered injectors? Depending on how much power you want,you really ought to consider at the very least some 2zz injectors. Anything over 200 and you're going to be looking at the lotus 440cc or modified Astra VXR with some Bosch plugs to wire in.

If you want to keep stock injectors, I'd aim for a modified return fuel rail and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to ensure your injectors can work at max capacity through boost. Maybe slightly higher pressure as well.

Wideband really is a good idea to monitor your fueling alongside boost. It'll also give your piggyback the capability to adjust on AFR.

If you're going standalone,you'll need an IAT sensor as well as (if I recall) the ECUMaster doesn't bother with a MAF-based fueling strategy. So we'll need an IAT to get the temps. (Need to address this in the group buy...)

Hmm..what else... Crank vent. One way valves. You do not want boost in your head.
New pcv to make sure as well

[1979scotte]

Garrett GT2554R

https://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/shop/gt2554r-ball-bearing-turbocharger-8360235001s-p-4930.html?sesid=b7256879bfa61a16db370980d9c091ae

Better than the t2560.
It's good for 270 @ the crank and spools really well.
Ignore the description.
653 Inc vat

You want a manifold in your hands.
It should be the first thing you buy.
The flange on the manifold dictates to a certain degree which turbo housing you want.