Whiteline ARB swap

[thetyrant]

Got a few more miles on now over various types of road and im very happy with results, no real impact on ride comfort/quality unless the road is pretty bad and eneven side to side so each side of car is seeing big difference in bumps, then of course the extra stiffness from the ARB is noticeable, nothing massive though and some extra damping would probably help with that as ive still only got it on +90 from soft, overall though the car just feels better everywhere even on the soft damping setting and certainly more planted once you load it up into the corners as you would expect,  need to get it out on some faster roads and track to get better idea for high speed feel but the balance feels good so far, i think i could adjust to stiffer setting on rear ARB for track but for road 1 up from full soft feels good without causing rear end to get twitchy!

Well worth the money i think and will report more once i get some time on track etc, will maybe adjust rear ARB firmer if im feeling brave!

[thetyrant]

Quick update, finally managed to get a good clear and dry run up my local twisty test route (A686 Melmerby to Hartside summit, 5miles of amazing tarmac!) and this was first chance to really get a feel for the ARB upgrade in anger, car was epic both up and down the pass! so much so I had to tell myself to reign it in before I ran out of talent/grip ....I have also adjusted the front camber bolts to maximum to give me -2.4deg which has improved front end feel further as well.

Im booked on for Oulton park next Tuesday 18th june so hopefully we get some dry running and I can test them further, don't think I will increase stiffness on rear bar as it feels good in dry and on the edge for wet but we will see how day goes, be nice to get some dry and wet running on track but prefer the dry these days.

[thetyrant]

Did the trackday earlier this week and car was spot on   whiteline bars helped a lot with keeping the car flatter during cornering as expected and the balance was superb also, never felt the need to adjust rear bar any stiffer although looking back i should of tryed it really as its was such a nice dry day ideal for testing things.

I have some pictures from the trackday showing car much flatter in the corners and will post some up when i get a chance.

Next mod will probably be to look at spring rates as while its ideal for the road as it is now on the Tein/Koni/Whiteline combo i would like a touch more track bias with firmer springs, i need to dig my spare stock dampers out and look at fitting some adjustable spring collars so i can use normal 2.5" coilover springs, at least on the front which i feel is where it needs it most, thats a thread for future though.

Just to close this one off for now i would say anyone looking to reduce roll on track these whiteline bars do a great job of sorting that, coupled with the Tein springs and Koni sport dampers i have it makes a very good road/fastroad setup which is still pretty capable on track

[neogeo13]

Best mod for handling if you dont want to go full coilovers, I have them on mine with tte springs. It is very good for fast road use and the odd track day. It gives you less body roll and cured my understeer with 195 15 front and 225 16 rears. £250ish full set from tcb performance.

[thetyrant]

Little update on this, i was at a sprint event on sunday at Blyton park and after 4 runs i adjusted the rear bar to softest setting, im just finding the front end of car is so responsive that the rear is stepping out unless your very very smooth on inputs even then it doesnt feel as planted as previous to bar swap,  ive been running front bar full stiff and rear on 2nd from softest setting, dropping rear to softest position did improve rear end grip on turn in but its still not as planted at the rear as i would like on tight 2nd & 3rd gear entry corners, no doubt my little 205 wide rear tyres wont be helping and 225 on rear would be better but before i changed the ARB i never had a problem with car on these tyres and it was stuck to the track, just more body roll.

At first i thought this loose rear end i encountered at previous event (1st one since bar swap) was just me getting used to car and pushing it harder, but after playing with driving style, tyre pressures and damper settings yesterday before finally softening the rear bar im confident bar is the reason for what im finding on certain corners, ive also been over the alignment settings just before setting off down on saturday and all is still good there so ruled that out, for the next event which is probably at croft in a couple of weeks i might try disconnecting the rear bar totally and see how that feels, its not as tight at croft so maybe wont have issue but will take my 17mm spanner anyhows   I imght soften the front bar as well but will just play at rear for now.

Its all about playing with setting to get the balance i want, my Tein springs are no doubt the weak link in my suspension for track use as they are too soft really even with the excellent Koni sport dampers, road manners are so good though its going to be compromise to swap them but needs must really, i need to get on converting my spare stock dampers to take coilover springs so i can play with spring rates, another job on the list for winter probably.

I must say the way the car turns is epic though, too good obviously for the rear to maintain traction!, my mate drove it on road day before with me in passenger seat and it surprised me even more from other side of car and he wasnt even pushing it that hard!, he has a 1zz celica and was very impressed how peppy the mr2 felt in comparison and how well it cornered

[Petrus]

Thank you for the well explained follow up.

[james_ly]

That would match my experience with the standard ARBs. Front is super responsive and tail goes out all the time. Which is really fun but maybe not the fastest - I've been toying with the idea of disconnecting the rear bar completely to emulate the Lotus Elise setup. But maybe let you be the guinea pig!

[thetyrant]

That would match my experience with the standard ARBs. Front is super responsive and tail goes out all the time. Which is really fun but maybe not the fastest - I've been toying with the idea of disconnecting the rear bar completely to emulate the Lotus Elise setup. But maybe let you be the guinea pig!

What toe/camber settings are you running out of interest ?

I never had an issue on the stock arbs but as above i was maybe not pushing car as hard as i am now, only circuit that ive done with both arb setups to compare is 3sisters which is a very tight gokart track for those not familiar with it, on 1st visit it was stock ARB and car felt glued front and rear but body roll was very notable, 2nd visit with Whiteline rollbars body roll was noticeably less and while front traction was very good with very pointy feel the rear was stepping out in places where i never had an issue on 1st visit, i was lapping quicker 2nd time so was pushing harder but on 1 bend in particular i had to go easy applying the power where as on stock bars i was flat to floor through same section from what i remember.

I mostly put this twitchy feeling down to type of circuit as its so tight and twisty and while i did think about changing arb setting before Blyton but decided not to, just checked alignment to make sure that was ok and went along to see how it felt on a different circuit, i never even took my spanners to change it and had to borrow off the mazda owner i was competing against! but he was a good sport

Of course you do need to be very smooth on the steering with these cars as they are so responsive once setup well, however at the moment im struggling to be smooth enough to stop rear becoming unsettled, maybe more driving will help but at the moment im tempted to refit stock rear arb but will see what next outing brings, if i have same sort of issues as Blyton i will disconnect the rear arb and see how it feels on a couple of laps and be your guinea pig    if thats better i will refit stock rear arb and see how that feels.

[james_ly]

What toe/camber settings are you running out of interest ?

I think it's stock toe settings, and the upper limit of camber, about 1 degree rear, bit over 1 degree front. MeisterR coilovers, so much stiffer than stock. On my road tyres there's not much roll at all.

[1979scotte]

Running without rear ARB has been done before on track to good effect

[Beachbum957]

Running Tein-S and Konis with stock front bar and no rear bar.  We don't track the car, but it is very hard to break the back loose on any road with excellent turn in.  Running minimal toe in front and rear and -1.2 camber front and -1.6 rear

[thetyrant]

Running Tein-S and Konis with stock front bar and no rear bar.  We don't track the car, but it is very hard to break the back loose on any road with excellent turn in.  Running minimal toe in front and rear and -1.2 camber front and -1.6 rear

Interesting info thanks, next time im working on car will disconnect rear bar and try it on the road before next track outing and see how it feels.

My alignment for reference is similar apart from more front camber due to camber bolts,  toe in approx 10minutes/0.16deg front and rear, front camber -2.5deg, rear camber -1.7deg.

[Petrus]

-1.2 camber front and -1.6 rear

front camber -2.5deg, rear camber -1.7deg.


[/quote]

The rear is usually preferred to be set with more negative camber. This makes sense as the rear is heavier so would deform the rubber more.

[thetyrant]

No need for anymore camber on the rear from what i see on the tyres, nice even wear with no scrubbing on inner our outer shoulders, unlike the fronts which i had to increase the camber with bolts to stop it scrubbing the outer shoulders on track.

I think people often get carried away and run too much camber, they need to look at the tyre wear which tells the story of if the tyre is running too much on inner our outer part of tread, more camber means less tyre contacting the road when in a straight line so you get to a point where you compromise straight line traction in acceleration/braking if you run too much camber.

I do have camber bolts for the rear but ive not fitted them based on the tyre wear im seeing, it would be interesting to try them and see how it affects cornering behavior but i feel at moment it would make it worse so will leave them for now., edit to add i will probably give them a try once ive played more with rear arb.

[Nvy]

On your cars due to the multilink its preferable to run less camber in the rear as it needs more travel for the camber to get positive. At least thats the way I understood it from another read on spyderchat. Altho i have 2.2 in the rear id want to get it down to 1.5-7 tops because of how the car behaves on uneven roads. I had it setup before I have found the article on spyderchat Also I think that with more camber in front some toe out would work wonders for the tram lining and turn in but I can be wrong.

Also there is no one fit all for the track work.

[Petrus]

Also there is no one fit all for the track work.

Nor for every style of driving.

Base line however, the MR has the front and rear suspension very much comparable and the weight distribution than indicates a bit more at the rear than at the front. The front steering is about compensated for by the rears being wigher/wider.
The rest is how the individual car is set up and how the driver pushes the front or not.

As a deep perspective the MR-S Spirit was set up with -3.5 front and -5.0  with véry hard springs.
The ARB´s for street setting; front standard, rear Cusco in 1,5 setting = almost silly hard rear relative to front.
His set up is só oriented on eliminating understeer. So there you are again; driver preference/style is very important.

[Beachbum957]

-1.2 camber front and -1.6 rear was about the minimum we could get without camber bolts because of the geometry change from lowering with the Tein springs. Front tire wear is fairly uniform, but the rears do wear the inside. We would like a bit less camber in the rear, so may add camber bolts.

We tried many different toe settings, and toe out at the front made the car very darty and tramlining was a bit nasty on crowned roads.  Too much toe in and the steering lacked feel and was a bit "numb".  We ended at about .15 deg toe in total front.  Toe at the rear had a similar effect and we ended with the same toe in as at the front, but have run at 0 rear toe.

This all works well for regular street driving (no track days).

The MR2 seem very sensitive to front toe in particular as even a relatively small change had a big impact on feel.  But tires make a difference as well so stiffer or softer sidewall tires may have different effects.

[Nvy]

Also there is no one fit all for the track work.

Nor for every style of driving.

Base line however, the MR has the front and rear suspension very much comparable and the weight distribution than indicates a bit more at the rear than at the front. The front steering is about compensated for by the rears being wigher/wider.
The rest is how the individual car is set up and how the driver pushes the front or not.

As a deep perspective the MR-S Spirit was set up with -3.5 front and -5.0  with véry hard springs.
The ARB´s for street setting; front standard, rear Cusco in 1,5 setting = almost silly hard rear relative to front.
His set up is só oriented on eliminating understeer. So there you are again; driver preference/style is very important.

Sprints car is setup in a way that it always over steers so that can be the expected behavior from the driver. There is a track lap somewhere he is always chasing the car to catch the rear and that is what makes me think that they want it that way. And yeah you are totally right that it comes to drivers style.

[Petrus]

To understand the ´oversteer´ set up it is better to see it as a ´no understeer´ set up.
When barelling down a narrow mountain road, understeer is the bugbear end all. When you overcook it, that´s it. No steering, no braking; just ploughing on straight till something stops you and the incline is not helping!
Oversteer is not góód either as it is a loss of traction but for one it is under control and secondly you still have control over the front; your direction and speed.
Spirit team clearly understood that speed on Touge is set by the speed limit of the front through corners; it being capable to turn in, to keep meeting the apex.

On the colsed circuit track and even less on the road you want the rear to become that easily unstuck as a result. On track it is not fast and on the road, as much fun as it is, it wíll catch you out sooner or later; been there done that.

[thetyrant]

Ok so on Friday after work I disconnected the rear ARB before a country lane blast to my parents and back, car of course felt noticeably less pointy/darty and a bit more roll but after a few miles I didn't notice so much and more compliance on bumpy roads was nice, rear traction feels good but of course I cant drive on the road like I would on track to see if its going to keep the rear more planted but I expect it will.

Ive cleaned up and painted the stock rear ARB so going to refit that before my next event at croft which is week today, im going to try it like this to begin with and if I get chance also with it disconnected to see how that feels on track, I would rather have something at rear to help with roll hence not just leaving it as it is now with whiteline fitted but not attached.

I will update once ive tried it but i suspect it going to be better for my setup/usage, I think the sprint format probably doesn't help as tyres are only just getting warmed up and lap is over so having car to pointy isn't helping my times!, on a trackday the tyres of course get nice and hot and the stiffer rear bar comes into its own, im more sprints and road use than trackdays so less roll stiffness at rear is going to help I think and will probably sell the Whiteline rear bar, but we will see how next event goes I may miss rear bar once I use in proper anger, time will tell

[Petrus]

...and yet anóther example of the trodden path not necessarily beingthe best or even a good one.

Chapeau to you for questioning the common ´wisdoms´.

Fingers crossed you can find a solution (most likely alternating between two) which works for yoú!

[Gaz mr-s]

As mentioned by Scotte above, some track users don't run with a rear bar, I read that the guys running in the one-make series don't use a rear. Whether they ALL adopt that policy,...?? don't know.

[thetyrant]

Yes i have read about some not running a rear bar at all and had noted previous commments on this, i just wanted to try it for myself and i think for trackdays a stiff rear bar really does make the car turn well and make it super responsive, with my usage mainly being road and 1 lap sprint events then being too responsive with the stiff rear bar on cold tyres is proving a downside for me as mentioned.

Yesterday i refitted my newly refurbed stock rear bar ready for sprint at croft this weekend, ive not driven car yet as been making use of nice weather to get some miles on my motorbike but will get it out for a thrash up hartside pass maybe tonight see how it feels.

If anyone wants a low mileage Whiteline rear ARB get in touch , will pop an advert up when i get a minute but maybe after this weekend once i see how Whiteline front & stock rear bar works out for me.

[james_ly]

Took one of my droplinks off the other day, only been able to test on the road so far. Feels a bit more stable so I'd be interested to try on track. I remember it was particularly nervous on high speed bends like everywhere at Thruxton, so I think it might be quicker disconnected.

[thetyrant]

Quick update, ran the car at the Croft sprint at the weekend back on stock rear ARB but retained the Whiteline on front, tricky conditions due to the weather being sunny one minute heavy shower the next!  but overall the car felt much better balanced on this setup, i did only get 2 timed laps in the dry ( and 1 practise) but was able to push the car hard right from the off with rear feeling much more planted on the changeable track with cold tyres, i was able to get it to move around but certainly more stable than previous, also having 4 laps in damp and wet conditions having the softer rear was a bonus and while i did have some "moments" they were more progressive and easily controlled.

I did miss the reduced body roll stiffer rear bar gives but the front bar did a reasonable job of helping with that so its a compromise im willing to live with for now, main thing for me is sprints and being able to get the car turned and back on the power as soon as possible, if i have to fight the rear on cold tyres it costs me time, i will get the rear whiteline ARB up for sale for someone doing more trackdays to make use of.