MR2 2ZZ engine failure on track

[JB21]

Well my bottom end went yesterday whilst at Oulton park. Car was running MWR billet oil pump gear set, EP baffled sump and Gulf competition 15w 50 oil. I topped it up before the session so maybe something just let go.

Need a replacement 2ZZ engine now if anyone knows of a decent one going.

[shnazzle]

Well my bottom end went yesterday whilst at Oulton park. Car was running MWR billet oil pump gear set, EP baffled sump and Gulf competition 15w 50 oil. I topped it up before the session so maybe something just let go.

Need a replacement 2ZZ engine now if anyone knows of a decent one going.

Man! That sucks. Its getting comically common now for these things to blow. 

It really does look like you did everything you could to prevent this. 
Proper crap

[1979scotte]

Re build yours at least you'll know its good. Another 2zz may give out after a couple of track days they've all lived hard lives.

[Topdownman]

Sorry to hear this.

Rebuilding it if possible does seem like the best long term plan.

[thetyrant]

Man that sucks sorry to hear it , out of interest how long since oil & filter was changed and how long into that session before it let go ?

These failures are one of things that makes be doubt doing 2zz conversion and im just trying to get a idea on possible contributing causes.

Im sure you will be back bigger and better

[JB21]

Man that sucks sorry to hear it , out of interest how long since oil & filter was changed and how long into that session before it let go ?

These failures are one of things that makes be doubt doing 2zz conversion and im just trying to get a idea on possible contributing causes.

Im sure you will be back bigger and better

Engine had done 2k miles (500 track/1500 road) since last oil and filter change and was still golden in colour before yesterday's track day. Bottom end went 5 laps/10 minutes into the session.

I'm still not sure what to do rebuild or replace. All depends on the current damage and rebuild costs. My look into the K20 swap as well.

[1979scotte]

From memory the k20 swap is very expensive.
Definitely rare I've been in plenty of engine swapped 2s but not a k20.

[thetyrant]

Did you change the oil yourself ?  what im curious about is the fill levels with these modified sumps and different dipsticks etc, as you had the parts that should prevent these problems I wonder if there simply wasn't enough oil in there due to sump /dipstick etc.

Ive looked into k20 swap and its expensive even if you find a good/cheap/used donor civic but the finished product if engine is good is way superior to a 2zz, but then so it should be at the cost which will be £4k+ from my research unless you have access to making all the custom parts needed.

[m1tch]

EP sump isn't the best and have heard of failures of people using it on track, would have gone with a Moroso sump for the additional engine insurance.

Were you also running an accusump at all? Its on the list for mine to ensure that I have full oil pressure even on start up to ensure that there is always oil pressure.

[JB21]

Did you change the oil yourself ?  what im curious about is the fill levels with these modified sumps and different dipsticks etc, as you had the parts that should prevent these problems I wonder if there simply wasn't enough oil in there due to sump /dipstick etc.

Ive looked into k20 swap and its expensive even if you find a good/cheap/used donor civic but the finished product if engine is good is way superior to a 2zz, but then so it should be at the cost which will be £4k+ from my research unless you have access to making all the custom parts needed.

Unfortunately didn't change it myself so like you i'm thinking the same thing. Yeah the K20 is out of the question due to cost. Its either replace or strip for parts as after a bit of reading there's no point rebuilding the 2ZZ after bottom end failure especially after I had to drive over 2 miles to get it off track for recovery as the damage will be far to much to be rebuilt.

[Carolyn]

Doesn't take very long to drop the sump and pull some bearing caps.

Then you'll know what the deal is.

Cars have been driven much further than two miles with a spun rod bearing (or two) and the engine was still rebuildable.

I do think 500 track miles on the same oil is asking a lot.  Depends on how hard you drive, of course.

[JB21]

I do think 500 track miles on the same oil is asking a lot.  Depends on how hard you drive, of course.

On basic oil maybe, but competition derived engine oil 500 miles is fine. As mentioned the oil was still golden in colour so hadn't broken down nor had it excessive oxidisation. I work in the oil and fuel additive industry.

[Carolyn]

I do think 500 track miles on the same oil is asking a lot.  Depends on how hard you drive, of course.

On basic oil maybe, but competition derived engine oil 500 miles is fine. As mentioned the oil was still golden in colour so hadn't broken down nor had it excessive oxidisation. I work in the oil and fuel additive industry.

fair enough

[Zxrob]

I do think 500 track miles on the same oil is asking a lot.  Depends on how hard you drive, of course.

Modern day oil is pretty dam good, I have never tracked a car but have been track riding bikes for many years, my 600  Kawasaki  which is constantly hitting 15k revs has an oil and filter change every 3/4 trackdays which is about 4/500 miles

Rob

[Alex Knight]

I am of the humble opinion that your (in my view) aggressive 2nd gear downshifts have possibly/probably caused the engine failure. You are buzzing 8,000RPM fairly regularly. It's not a mechanical over-rev per se, but I feel that some more mechanical sympathy would possibly have prevented this.
All in my opinion, you understand.

[Alex Knight]

[Its getting comically common now for these things to blow

I don't agree, personally.

Where are all the posts saying: "My 2ZZ is still working fine with no issues"?

To be fair, most failure posts are reporting by exception.

In the interests of balance, my hard-worked track 2ZZ is still fine with absolutely no issues.
I have personally done just under 40,000 miles on this engine, which is currently at around 123,000 miles at the moment.

[shnazzle]

[Its getting comically common now for these things to blow

I don't agree, personally.

Where are all the posts saying: "My 2ZZ is still working fine with no issues"?

To be fair, most failure posts are reporting by exception.

In the interests of balance, my hard-worked track 2ZZ is still fine with absolutely no issues.
I have personally done just under 40,000 miles on this engine, which is currently at around 123,000 miles at the moment.

Perhaps a rather inflated statement on my part, but I do firmly believe that there seems to be a bit of a bottom end trend. 

And what would be equally interesting is why yours and others haven't gone under heavy use. Which yours is

[JB21]

I am of the humble opinion that your (in my view) aggressive 2nd gear downshifts have possibly/probably caused the engine failure. You are buzzing 8,000RPM fairly regularly. It's not a mechanical over-rev per se, but I feel that some more mechanical sympathy would possibly have prevented this.
All in my opinion, you understand.

I respect your opinion but I honestly don't think that's the case. I've got a feeling the engine oil was to low even though the dipstick read full.

Most issues with over revving come within the valve train not bottom end. And the fact it went whilst hard cornering  makes me believe even more it was oil starvation.

We'll soon see when I drop the oil and see how much I get out.

[Carolyn]

I am of the humble opinion that your (in my view) aggressive 2nd gear downshifts have possibly/probably caused the engine failure. You are buzzing 8,000RPM fairly regularly. It's not a mechanical over-rev per se, but I feel that some more mechanical sympathy would possibly have prevented this.
All in my opinion, you understand.

I respect your opinion but I honestly don't think that's the case. I've got a feeling the engine oil was to low even though the dipstick read full.

Most issues with over revving come within the valve train not bottom end. And the fact it went whilst hard cornering  makes me believe even more it was oil starvation.

We'll soon see when I drop the oil and see how much I get out.

You'll KNOW when you pull a bearing cap.

[Dift]

[Its getting comically common now for these things to blow

I don't agree, personally.

Where are all the posts saying: "My 2ZZ is still working fine with no issues"?

To be fair, most failure posts are reporting by exception.

In the interests of balance, my hard-worked track 2ZZ is still fine with absolutely no issues.
I have personally done just under 40,000 miles on this engine, which is currently at around 123,000 miles at the moment.

Alex, out of curiosity which sump are you running?

In the lotus world most 111R owners I know run the Elise Parts sump over the Elise spares one.

[JoeCool]

I'm with alex on this one. IMO you're downshifting to 2nd prematurely after only a brief hold in 3rd, you can hear the engine buzzing repeatedly. You're slowing the car on engine braking not friction braking!

I think you've cracked your oil pump from over revs and that's what's then starved the engine.

But a dismantling will find out! Hope you can fix it mate. So much fun when they're working. Until they're not.

[JB21]

I'm with alex on this one. IMO you're downshifting to 2nd prematurely after only a brief hold in 3rd, you can hear the engine buzzing repeatedly. You're slowing the car on engine braking not friction braking!

I think you've cracked your oil pump from over revs and that's what's then starved the engine.

But a dismantling will find out! Hope you can fix it mate. So much fun when they're working. Until they're not.

So with a cracked oil pump you think I'd have been able to finish the lap back to the pits which is over a mile. Leave it sat for 2 hours in the garage then it'd start again to drive the 2.5 miles I drove off site to get recovered?

[JoeCool]

Yep. Drove mine an equivalent distance with no oil pressure.

[JB21]

Yep. Drove mine an equivalent distance with no oil pressure.

Did you have billet gearset as well?

[shnazzle]

Yep. Drove mine an equivalent distance with no oil pressure.

Did you have billet gearset as well?

Was this the billet gearset that had issues?