Pre Face Lift and Face Lift

[Petrus]

by all means the JDM MR-S and TF300 model too.

Because of a rather strong ....euhmmm... preference for the FL by one member I would love to see the difference listed. Best with pros and cons, even likes, dislikes perhaps.

The latest thread on pistons made one perception go up in smoke; the most positive outlook is that it is not likely that any 1ZZ fitted to our MRs received the improoved oil draining pistons.

Somewhere I listed the reinforcements per the FL which added some extra side impact protection, extra bracing and added weight.  The JDM MR-S lacked the door bars of the PFL even and thus the weight of them.
This also highlights that changes not persé exclusively are for the better and may have an inherent drawback:
- Take the larger 16" rears and wider rubber of the FL.
- Also next years 1" higher ground clearance.

Afaik the JDM came in three specification levels;  "B",  "Standard", "S". The "S" trim level included power windows, locks, mirrors, AM/FM/CD radio, cloth seats, tilt steering wheel, and alloy wheels. This was the monospec level for the US and EU.
The JDM cars apparently also had a slightly nippier CPU program.

So, shoot!

[househead]

Just my 2p but I prefer the look of the headlights on the FL, although as has been pointed out before ... the PFL headlights are less prone to yellowing/misting due to the lack of interior reflection. I also prefer the look of the FL rear lights. This is just personal preference.

Bracing-wise, the FL has a bit more (both front and mid afaik). No idea how much difference this makes as I've never driven a PFL.

[jvanzyl]

Pre face lift pros

• Rear lights weigh less
• front lights weigh less
• seats weigh less
• radio is nicer

Face lift pros

• Headlights work better
• rear lights look better
• seats look better
• better bracing in the front
• side vents look better
• rear inserts look better
• it's got 6 gears

That's my honest opinion..

And I have a pre face lift

[Petrus]

Just my 2p but I prefer the look of the headlights on the FL, although as has been pointed out before ... the PFL headlights are less prone to yellowing/misting due to the lack of interior reflection. I also prefer the look of the FL rear lights. This is just personal preference.

Also the price of the look is the dreaded bulb access. The PFL double filamment H4 bulb is as simple as any.
Pick your choice.

Bracing-wise, the FL has a bit more (both front and mid afaik). No idea how much difference this makes as I've never driven a PFL.

The larger rear wheel makes more of a difference. Toyota went up a size in diameter for a better look; optical illusion of a better fill of the rear arch.
They went wider to soften the handling a bit more to the understeer.
The price, well more understeer and a heavier wheel.
Pick your choice.

[Petrus]

Pre face lift pros

• Rear lights weigh less
• front lights weigh less
• seats weigh less
• radio is nicer

Face lift pros

• Headlights work better
• rear lights look better
• seats look better
• better bracing in the front
• side vents look better
• rear inserts look better
• it's got 6 gears

That's my honest opinion..

And I have a pre face lift

´Better´ look is subject to taste.
The 6-speed is supposed to be less rugged.

The FL fog lights I would certainly use but not having them ís lighter if not brighter and as to the subjective lóóks I greatly prefer the simpler PFL frog mouth.
Have no info about the effect of replacing the PFL vent holes with fog lights.

[Carolyn]

It also depends on what yuo want from the car.  Sixth gear is an overdrive gear and ideal for motorway cruising.  That is, if you do much of that.

I do agree that the original 'frog-mouth' look has more character.

As for bracing- that's a movable feast.  PL has a bit more, but a PFL can be made more rigid, again, if that'd what you want.

I bought an MR2 for country road scratching.  Old fashioned sports-car fun and I generally avoid motorways as much as possible.  I'm retired, so there's no commute to work. Plus, like many of us, we have big old 'workhorse' for towing trailers and doing the hard graft.

Mine is a JDM MR S.  With LSD (which was only available as a special order option)  It's real glory (for scratching) is the gear box.  Close ratio and more sporty final drive.  And it is slick as.   Especially coupled with the factory option short-shifter. Very often I don't bother with the clutch when changing up.  Additional bracing makes it a super 'B road'version of the car.

Not for everybody, though.  It's rubbish at high speed cruising.

Dean at Rutland MR2 reckons the pfl steel was better and the seat leather was better quality.

[Petrus]

Mine is a JDM MR S.  With LSD (which was only available as a special order option)  It's real glory (for scratching) is the gear box.  Close ratio and more sporty final drive.  And it is slick as.   Especially coupled with the factory option short-shifter.

Owwwwww.... mjammie!

Dean at Rutland MR2 reckons the pfl steel was better

I´d reccon him the expert on that.

[Ardent]

Have never a driven a PFL - so that saves a lot of typing.

Lights.
Much prefer the FL rear lights.
The fronts, I want both. I fancy the idea of the FL front light with the blackness of the PFL.
Yes it could be done. But simply cannot be ar5ed.

Not keen on the dimples on the PFL. Side vents much more pleasing to my eye.
Rear bumper. Prefer the PFL. Seems neater to me.

PFL audio far superior to FL. But never use it so a moot point.

Wheels.
Very tempted to get a second set to act as a winter set. But, as a double edge consideration. I'm likely to got for 15s all round. Easier to source matching tyres and would provide an insight into better? acceleration?
Top speed is not important to me. Acceleration and the associated physiological sensations are what floats my boat. Hence a liking for turbo diesels, electric motor torque in hybrids and full fat v6s.
Same as @Carolyn, try to avoid motorways simply because they are boring. Much prefer to be in Alexa on that type of journey.
Love Ding day, but the A50 part of it makes me weep. I pray for the next roundabout.

I seem to have digressed.

Bought Sabine as soon as I seen her. No experience of driving another before or since.
Briefly had a second 2, but that was on 17s so does not count.

[Petrus]

I'm likely to got for 15s all round. Easier to source matching tyres and would provide an insight into better? acceleration?

Nothing you´d notice.
You would however notice the better conformation of higher sidewall x lighter wheel on very rough surfaces such as cobblestones. The same difference is there on tarmac ofcourse but simply not as noticeable.

[Ardent]

Reason enough to have a go at some point.

[Petrus]

Reason enough to have a go at some point.

Lighter wheels are só worth it! Lóve my Enkeis. On a FL they are even more lovable ;-)

[steveash]

I wish I was sensitive enough to notice small differences in cars but it needs to be pretty major to get my attention. I doubt even side by side I would notice a driving difference between PFL and FL.

Dean at Rutland MR2 reckons the pfl steel was better and the seat leather was better quality.

I imagine with there being no physical changes to the steel, the cut off would be similar to the pistons. If there were two sources then there are likely many cars with a mixture of both while stocks were used up.

I fancy the idea of the FL front light with the blackness of the PFL.
Yes it could be done. But simply cannot be ar5ed.

I was ar5ed! Looks good to me and I don't notice any difference in performance.

[Petrus]

Dean at Rutland MR2 reckons the pfl steel was better and the seat leather was better quality.

I imagine with there being no physical changes to the steel, the cut off would be similar to the pistons. If there were two sources then there are likely many cars with a mixture of both while stocks were used up.

Having visited several, not to say many, car manufacturing plants including steel press facilities and familiar with the logistics, I think it most certain that it is not restricted to the MR2 and the same for all models pressed at the time.
Steel presses are so time consuming to set up and so large that for not main stream models they are not in a JIT stream. The steel pressings will be produced in large batches and processed and thén stocked as part assemblies till the rest of the production.
The quantities and varities of steel rolls are mind boggling and the process cannot be fully JIT integrated with assemby on demand unless it is a mass production model.
The production numbers of the MR2, especially FL, are such that all of the latter may very well have been pressed in a single batch and thus from the rolls of steel having JIT rolled in at that moment. Just like the PFL ones probably quite a bit earlier from the thén JIT rolled in rolls.
I am in no doubt that Dean did not suck it out of his thumb as he sáw and sawed many MR2s and their steels.
Unless we get more info I am going with his observation.

[Petrus]

Since I seem to be the one who inspired this thread I'll just add my 2 eur cents.

Pros for FL:
- better looking front fender
- better looking rear fender
- better headlights
- better beam pattern and beam coverage of the projectors
- ability to easily mod the dipped beam with plug-in HID without blinding incoming traffic due to them being projectors and having much better cut-off
- better rear lights
- better looking seats
- 6 speed gearbox
- better bracing
- better protection/safety
- side vents same colour as the body

Some prefer the daughter, some the mother and some love both :-)

I throw out the stock radio in any case so to me it doesn't matter which radio is better stock.

Well, with that reasoning neither seat, wheel, bracing etc are a difference of consequence...

The latest thread on pistons made one perception go up in smoke; the most positive outlook is that it is not likely that any 1ZZ fitted to our MRs received the improoved oil draining pistons.

I wouldn't call "a few cars didn't have more reliable engines, all of them are a risk of blowing up" a positive outlook. xD

The crux being that since probably no MR2 W3 has the upgraded pistons, it is not a PFL - FL thing.

Also the price of the look is the dreaded bulb access. The PFL double filamment H4 bulb is as simple as any.
Pick your choice.

Can say the same for FL. I don't have any problem changing the bulbs on any of the lights on my headlights without removing the headlight, not even position or indicator bulbs, much less the easy-peasy accessible dipped beam.

Congrats. Kuddos to you.

The price, well more understeer and a heavier wheel.
Pick your choice.

Widen the front track and you negate that.

See above. Point is the PFL - FL difference and consequence.
Some will prefer the looks and or the just that more forgiving understeer/oversteer compromise.
Point is that the ´better´ medal has two sides.

The 6-speed is supposed to be less rugged.

And yet not enough to be known for issues. Unlike SMT.

Not a PFL - FL issue difference is it?

The FL fog lights I would certainly use but not having them ís lighter if not brighter

Lightness is not everything. You can make the car light by going into extremes and making look ugly inside because it's stripped of the fabric and the bare metal is showing through, but does it make a more pleasant and attractive envinronment to live in? Are race-prepped rally cars (with stock-car performance) that much better to live in just because they're stripped of every unnecessary kg? Raw, loud, ugly, looking like a construction yard. Not in my opinion. But again it's PERSONAL opinion.

Then there is the question, how much does stripping a car of "unnecessary" weight cost? Special light weight batteries? Light-weight midpipes with no cats and light-weight manifold and exhausts that will fail a MOT, not to mention will get you fined or your car seized? Stuff you have to arse with replacing for every damn MOT and are constantly in danger of running into a cop that had a sense of humor failure? How much does it cost to replace stock seats that you got free with extra light ones and how unpleasant they are to sit in compared to the more comfier stock ones that are good enough for the roads? Replacing the steering wheel with a lighter one and thus removing one of the few safety features, the airbag, that saved many lives? Having to look at ugly bare metal of the insides instead of at carpeting? How much do light-weight wheels cost when you have stock ones already mounted and thus free?

Just running around without homologated exhaust on a weekend would cost me 800 eur if I run into a cop that's a sticker to laws. If I went into light-weight extreme that fine would go up to ridiculous amounts because every change like wheels, steering wheel, exhaust system, etc. has to be homologated and paid through the nose. Every single unhomologated part costs 400 eur on regular day, on weekend add another 400 eur PER ITEM.

.... Is that in any way PFL, FL related??


If I coúld and if living in a RHD part of the world, the choice would be an early JDM spec. B with Carolyn´s 5 speed close ratio/LSD, TE turbo, minimal bracing and bright red Volk club racers.
In my real world I live in LHD EU, have two gammy legs, Volks are unobtanium and a turbo both a homologation nightmare/ over budget.


Bottom line is that ÁNY  MR2 W3 is a car worth enjoying and that the choice about which exact one is getting more reduced all the time. You are lucky to find any which good one.

p.s. quite a quote challenge :-)

[Beachbum957]

We have a 2002 (PFL) and a 2003 (FL), and driving wise, there is no real difference. The US never got the 6 speed manual (just SMT), and most of the changes in the later cars didn't have much impact on the driving experience.

While the FL cars are more desired because of supposed changes for more reliability, more bracing (basically the same as the TRD lower braces for the early models), and better seats, the big negative is the tire sizes.  In the US, the FL OEM rear tire size (215/45-16) is almost unobtainable. 

Personally I like the look of the early models better but they look and drive the same from the drivers seat.

[Petrus]

We have a 2002 (PFL) and a 2003 (FL), and driving wise, there is no real difference. The US never got the 6 speed manual (just SMT), and most of the changes in the later cars didn't have much impact on the driving experience.

While the FL cars are more desired because of supposed changes for more reliability, more bracing (basically the same as the TRD lower braces for the early models), and better seats, the big negative is the tire sizes.  In the US, the FL OEM rear tire size (215/45-16) is almost unobtainable. 

Personally I like the look of the early models better but they look and drive the same from the drivers seat.

Just had a search on Spain´s three largest car sales websites:
Only ten for sale, óne FL and that is a RHD UK import which despite being a TF300 is not very desirable for most drivers over here.

[james_ly]

I found putting PFL wheels on my FL made it accelerate noticeably faster in low gears, and tightened up the balance due to less rear grip. I like the 6 speed box for mpg on motorway. Other than that, not much to choose between the cars, only reason I bought FL specifically was paranoia about oil burning etc which is perhaps overblown.

[Petrus]

only reason I bought FL specifically was paranoia about oil burning etc which is perhaps overblown.

...or appearantly without any factual foundation even.

Mind; not the tendency to burn oil but the FL having the modified pistons.

[Zxrob]

As we are on the subject

Can anyone confirm if the PFL nappy will fit my 04 FL, part numbers are slightly different but that doesn't always mean they wont fit

Cheers Rob

[househead]

only reason I bought FL specifically was paranoia about oil burning etc which is perhaps overblown.

...or appearantly without any factual foundation even.

Mind; not the tendency to burn oil but the FL having the modified pistons.

It's annoying how many online "buyers guide" and such state firmly that the FL engine doesn't suffer the same precat problems as the PFL. One could be easily forgiven for having taken that as honest and factual.

[Petrus]

It's annoying how many online "buyers guide" and such state firmly that the FL engine doesn't suffer the same precat problems as the PFL. One could be easily forgiven for having taken that as honest and factual.

I for sure did!!
It was just that there are no FLs for sale over here. Well, that and rust not being an issue.
The first incling  got that there míght be something wrong with the copied blurp was a russian article about them over there using (woefully inadequate) Lada pistons in all of the years to address the issue.
Then the additional info over here on this forum.

The russian article also enlightenend me on the root problem for the oval bore issues too btw.

I was totally nót expecting such design goof ups for a bread & butter engine from Toyota. As such any soothing info about them having caught it finds a rather too fertile soil I think. The time lapse between design update and fitting in the MR completes the delusion.

[Ardent]

On the engine front (and I think this relates to another thread)
But it may be possible that there are cars out there that do have the updated piston.

I stumbled across this nugget of info a long time ago. I am providing a link as suspect might fall foul of our copyright rules.

Page 5 on this one.
 Parts
and also worth a skim read, gives indication as to when new pistons were used from. Or upto what number they didn't.
engine numbers?

Apologies if I'm well off the mark.

[Petrus]

On the engine front (and I think this relates to another thread)
But it may be possible that there are cars out there that do have the updated piston.

I stumbled across this nugget of info a long time ago. I am providing a link as suspect might fall foul of our copyright rules.

Page 5 on this one.
 Parts
and also worth a skim read, gives indication as to when new pistons were used from. Or upto what number they didn't.
engine numbers?

Apologies if I'm well off the mark.

Right on the mark. All we need now is engine serial numbers of a few model year cars, preferably incl. a TF300.

[Ardent]

@Petrus

I think the other thread I might have been thinking of was yours as well.
The root of the oil problem?

The above links tie in with that I think.

[Ardent]

So for those that have or will read the links.

Now need a means of identifying the "optifit" short blocks.