Mr2 gearbox with 2zz gearing for Mr2 1zz engined vehicle. Any experience?

[Rallyeluke]

As above ^^^

I have just purchased a 2zz gearset and wish to have 1 to 5 2zz gears installed in my gearbox and retain my 6th gear and lsd.

apparently this is very benificial to acceleration and I am trying to pep my FL mr2 mk3 up slightly. if you have any experience or knowledge of this setup I am eager to hear your input?
 

I am based in Wiltshire so I am also looking for a trusted garage in the south of england to do the work if anyone knows of anyone good?

Thankyou Lucas

[Nvy]

The biggest benefit is the final drive. Just gears wont do anything for you.

[Dev]

It depends on your power curve. Having shorter gearing has its benefits and also drawbacks. For the 2ZZ engine having the ratios shorter is fine because the engine has longer legs keeping it in gear longer for the benefit and also trying to  keep it in lift on the next gear change. If you add this to a 1ZZ it might be slightly quicker off the line but you will have to shift gears earlier, lose time in the process and it might feel like you are in between gears constantly up shifting  and downshifting to keep in the sweet spot of the power band when performance driving from one corner to the next. Gearing is best suited for the kind of track but for the street driven car the ratios are carefully chosen to match the engine speed, engine power and comfort.

[Rallyeluke]

https://youtu.be/hR2FgOoJxCE


https://youtu.be/QNq1YoSVZ3E


These 2 videos have opened my eyes to that possible path for mine. Long term it will be having a 2zz conversion anyway so it's a win win as the box would be fitted to the new engine when the time comes.

Apparently with the c63 final drive and c60 ratios it is really well suited for spirited driving.

[Dev]

I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing especially if it is reported to work well. Having it a shorter than what you have now being the C63 would be a benefit. I found the C56 what we get here in the US quicker than the C63.

[Roj]

As above ^^^

I have just purchased a 2zz gearset and wish to have 1 to 5 2zz gears installed in my gearbox and retain my 6th gear and lsd.

apparently this is very benificial to acceleration and I am trying to pep my FL mr2 mk3 up slightly. if you have any experience or knowledge of this setup I am eager to hear your input?
 

I am based in Wiltshire so I am also looking for a trusted garage in the south of england to do the work if anyone knows of anyone good?

Thankyou Lucas

So you're the guy who read my post on FB on this very idea, then jumped on it and sniped the gear set from under my nose?!?! Pretty sneaky! I hope your next poo is a hedgehog!

Just kidding :p If you're not fast you're last, eh! Let me know how it goes once finished.

A couple of rusty 190s have come up locally so I might end up just going the whole (hedge)hog.

[Rallyeluke]

As above ^^^

I have just purchased a 2zz gearset and wish to have 1 to 5 2zz gears installed in my gearbox and retain my 6th gear and lsd.

apparently this is very benificial to acceleration and I am trying to pep my FL mr2 mk3 up slightly. if you have any experience or knowledge of this setup I am eager to hear your input?
 

I am based in Wiltshire so I am also looking for a trusted garage in the south of england to do the work if anyone knows of anyone good?

Thankyou Lucas

So you're the guy who read my post on FB on this very idea, then jumped on it and sniped the gear set from under my nose?!?! Pretty sneaky! I hope your next poo is a hedgehog!

Just kidding :p If you're not fast you're last, eh! Let me know how it goes once finished.

A couple of rusty 190s have come up locally so I might end up just going the whole (hedge)hog.

I do apologise its not personal lol

I had actually watched these video links I posted yesterday morning and that got me thinking about it and randomly your post came up and I felt it was fate 🙃

I will let you know how I get on.

Ultimately I want a 2zz in mine so using the 4.3 fd from the c63 box will not really work in unison with the 2zz engine.

So it's either build up a box suited to the 1zz power plant or go the whole hog and do full conversion.

He breaks tons of them and is a really sound bloke so I doubt it will be long till he has another in for you to buy

[Roj]

As above ^^^

I have just purchased a 2zz gearset and wish to have 1 to 5 2zz gears installed in my gearbox and retain my 6th gear and lsd.

apparently this is very benificial to acceleration and I am trying to pep my FL mr2 mk3 up slightly. if you have any experience or knowledge of this setup I am eager to hear your input?
 

I am based in Wiltshire so I am also looking for a trusted garage in the south of england to do the work if anyone knows of anyone good?

Thankyou Lucas

So you're the guy who read my post on FB on this very idea, then jumped on it and sniped the gear set from under my nose?!?! Pretty sneaky! I hope your next poo is a hedgehog!

Just kidding :p If you're not fast you're last, eh! Let me know how it goes once finished.

A couple of rusty 190s have come up locally so I might end up just going the whole (hedge)hog.

I do apologise its not personal lol

I had actually watched these video links I posted yesterday morning and that got me thinking about it and randomly your post came up and I felt it was fate 🙃

I will let you know how I get on.

Ultimately I want a 2zz in mine so using the 4.3 fd from the c63 box will not really work in unison with the 2zz engine.

So it's either build up a box suited to the 1zz power plant or go the whole hog and do full conversion.

He breaks tons of them and is a really sound bloke so I doubt it will be long till he has another in for you to buy

I'm happy for someone else to be the guineapig

I got thinking about it as there are classes in the MSA blue book that allow certain modifications but not others. Tie that to a class in a local series that is based on <130bhp/t and I think a CR gear set, FD swap and LWFW will be a good way to release some performance on track without increasing the pwr/weight ratio.

[Rallyeluke]

For a track application using the corolla t sport c64 box is the best option as it has same short fd as c60 and also a shorter 6th gear.

The videos show an impressive improvement over the stock gearing in my opinion, mine is purely a weekend toy but if it was a race car I would definitely use the shorter fd of c60/c64

[Mark A]

Anybody tell me the difference between the Celica 2ZZ-GE UK and JDM ratios, is it 6th gear and the final drive?

[JB21]

You want a C60 or C64 with the 2ZZ swap. C60 with MR2 Torsen diff and 6th gear would be a good bet.

Mine is C60 w/diff and in 6th gear at 70mph you are around 4k rpm, not good at all for fuel or your ears.

[Mark A]

I put this together mainly taken from Wiki, might help.

You cannot view this attachment.

[Rallyeluke]

Can anyone confirm the box face lift 6 speed mr2s have?

I initially thought it would be a c63 but apparently they are c66 boxes?

[Alex Knight]

As above ^^^

I have just purchased a 2zz gearset and wish to have 1 to 5 2zz gears installed in my gearbox and retain my 6th gear and lsd.

apparently this is very benificial to acceleration and I am trying to pep my FL mr2 mk3 up slightly. if you have any experience or knowledge of this setup I am eager to hear your input?
 

I am based in Wiltshire so I am also looking for a trusted garage in the south of england to do the work if anyone knows of anyone good?

Thankyou Lucas

So you're the guy who read my post on FB on this very idea, then jumped on it and sniped the gear set from under my nose?!?! Pretty sneaky! I hope your next poo is a hedgehog!

Just kidding :p If you're not fast you're last, eh! Let me know how it goes once finished.

A couple of rusty 190s have come up locally so I might end up just going the whole (hedge)hog.

I blazed this trail in a October 2020:

https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=70156.msg836640#msg836640

[Petrus]

From the older thread:

it might accelerate a touch quicker with its tighter ratios but then you need more gearchanges to reach same speed so kind of defeats the object in lots of ways.

Second to weight, this is another ´thing´ for me even since I messed with my old Norton.
OEM it was sweet and flexible with a 4 speed gearbox of which 4th an overdrive.
´Improving´ the power and freefalling down the rabbit hole quickly tought me that a wider powerband and less gears can be quicker than a narrower band and more gears, even on track.

VÉRY important is the time lost in shifting as well as the increasing chance of not having the correct one for the instance. It is just as bad as waiting for the engine to get into the power band.

Take simple straight line accelleration. Who has nót arrived near the next braking point with a bit of tarmac left at the red line of the rev counter? You can chose to lose time not shifting of lose time shifting up and having to shift down extra.

Lower gearing, using more gears means also nééding to shift more. During which the engine is disconnected ánd you are distracted with a hand less on the wheel plus your body weight/balance shifted (think depressing the clutch).
Shifting less is better even on track, never mind on the road!

[Rallyeluke]

It is more about having a shorter final drive so the vehicle has more given torque  at the wheels, the gearing is hopelessly long in the mk3 fl 6 speed and you end up in a situation where you are changing from second to third at 7k and the revs dropping to just below 5k,
The engine really comes on cam around 5400rpm so to have a gearbox dropping you in at around that rpm will give you useable power straight away instead of that split second of waiting for it to pick back up to 5400rpm.


The videos give a great idea of how much more punchy the humble 1zz can be with a shorter box.

[Roj]

Can anyone confirm the box face lift 6 speed mr2s have?

I initially thought it would be a c63 but apparently they are c66 boxes?

There's lots of conflicting information regarding which 'box was fitted to each model of car and from each location - UK, JDM, EU and US. A search on here suggests its been a bone of contention in the past.

Depending on how much trust you place in Wikipedia/forums/random web chat:

C63: 1ZZ engined cars, 6 speed, no LSD
C66: 1ZZ engined cars, 6 speed with LSD

Take from that what you will

I collect the 2ZZ box on Monday. Waiting on a quote from a local garage to do the swap. I'm thinking it's easier to swap the MR2 6th onto the donor gearset then swap that into the MR2 box along with the donor final drive but happy to be advised otherwise. Possibly easier to swap the 6th and LSD into the 2ZZ box, but I believe there are other things to consider when going that route like reverse blockout and swapping selectors.

[JB21]

C60 in my 2zz really is a great combo 1st-5th, never drops below 6200k rpm on changes.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFhwrlxHP1i/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Petrus]

It is more about having a shorter final drive so the vehicle has more given torque  at the wheels, the gearing is hopelessly long in the mk3 fl 6 speed and you end up in a situation where you are changing from second to third at 7k and the revs dropping to just below 5k,
The engine really comes on cam around 5400rpm so to have a gearbox dropping you in at around that rpm will give you useable power straight away instead of that split second of waiting for it to pick back up to 5400rpm.


The videos give a great idea of how much more punchy the humble 1zz can be with a shorter box.

The 6sp is the same as the 5sp without the overdrive 6th.
If the end gear gets reduced enough to make the 6th a proper gear on track, the others will be equally short. Yes, more torgue plus more shifting.
Do some power/torgue graphs. They are probably already out there. With these you can see the width of the ranges and shift moments.

A bit left field solution for track use is ... smaller diameter wheels. It will also lower unsprung weight and lower the car. Basically ideal to switch between road and track.
Just mind the caiper clearance.

[Rallyeluke]

Final drive is much shorter on the 5 speed and 3rd and 4th are shorter too if we are talking about the c56 box

[Petrus]

Final drive is much shorter on the 5 speed and 3rd and 4th are shorter too if we are talking about the c56 box

Found some graphs but will put them in a seprate thread as it is not adressing yoúr topic.

[Roj]

So, I now have a 2ZZ 'box from a low mileage T-Sport Celica:



Charts suggest fewer revs dropped between 2-3 and 3-4, at the cost of a slightly larger drop between 1-2, 4-5 and 5-6. 1-2 is of no concern and I can't see myself using 5th on track in this country.

1ZZ with C66:


1ZZ with C64 1-5 and FD, with C66 6th:


Not 100% convinced of the accuracy of the formulae tbh, as the bastardised box appears to show little change between 3, 4 & 5. Still, I'm up for trialling it to see how it goes. Need to confirm that all the parts are fully interchangeable between the two boxes, and maybe price up new bearings, seals etc. and also 3rd & 4th gear synchros, the known weak points.

[kostonhumar]

Can you swap a 2zz gear box straight in to a 6 speed mr2 without modification.

[JB21]

[Roj]

Swap complete. Also swapped in a lightweight flywheel, so can't say which makes the most difference. But a difference they most certainly make! It's amazing! Not convinced it's actually quicker against the clock, but it feels quicker in gear, changing through the gears, up and down, and the throttle response is great. Just feels much more interactive. 100% worth the hassle and cost.