The one thing that my turbo install hasn't got is any kind of intake cooling (minor detail really s:flame: :flame: s:flame: ), now whilst the ambient air temp at present probably means I can still get away with it, come summer I may find myself with nothing more than a hot air pump under the right foot, not to mention subsequent engine damage s:roll: :roll: s:roll: . As the blower went on back end of Oct I guess I timed it as best as poss to run without cooling, but the next item on my turbo agenda is to get something sorted in the next month or two (ha, if this winter ever ends), especially as the Noble session made 230hp at 9psi.
I've started weighing up the 3 possible solutions (if there's a 4th or 5th someone please tell me?) of which only 1 will be used, been reading through past posts and had the odd conversation, but as I embody the saying 'a little knowledge is dangerous' any constructive input would be much appreciated. I've started a pro's & con's list off;
Intercooler
Initial plan would be to use the SP set-up from Matt's latest turbo kit design, partly as the most space I have is forward and down of the battery and the exhaust system would have to be changed to try and emulate the C2 or Hass IC set-up.
+ Almost off the shelf solution; IC, brackets, pipe (IC to TB) ready to go. OE set-up on TTE and Matt's latest is larger and more efficient than the original and track proven on his motor.
+ DIY install, so no anticipated costs on the fitting front.
+ Fit and forget relatively speaking.
+ Maybe worth another 10hp?
~ Finished costings are looking around £500 with a nearly new IC.
- Not the most effective cooling solution, could still suffer with high intake temps/laggy-ness on a warm day.
Charge Cooling
Other than Phil's PWR kit being for sale (though that might have changed?) I don't have a great deal of finished options identified.
+ The most effective single cooling solution, possibly worth a further 20hp?
- Not a DIY job (for me anyway), quite an involved install from what I can see.
- So labour costs an additional consideration, possibly a full day's?
- Finished cost may be as high as £1000 once fitted s:scared: :scared: s:scared: .
Water Injection
The rank outsider, but my Apexi kit had WI as the only cooling source on the prev car and DAZ400 reckoned it was all that was needed (to the point that it appears he removed the Apexi IC!).
+ Least space critical and I have old ally elbow with threaded insert for injector so should fit easiet of all 3. Probably DIY as well.
+ Cooling performance tuneable (on 2D upwards kits) and possibly more effective than IC???
~ Finished cost for new kit looks no greater than IC option.
- Not fit and forget, needs regular refills.
I realise all 3 will need a follow up mapping session, thats fairly unavoidable (well planned actually). With a cooling solution fitted a HP fuel pump would be the last and final mod. The re-map might then make 250hp, probably as far as the kit will go and tbh as far as I will go with it. So the cooling needs to be no more than this. I'm leaning towards IC at the mo. Any idea's?
IC will get the job done most of the time. Having ran the larger IC on my own car for over a year, I can confirm it will run nicely for every-day driving, but it will suffer from heat saturation. Sustained boost will cause it to pretty much stop working and power will drop off sharply.
Go for the charge cooler if you can, but you're right in it's not cheap. Parts wise you can get everything you need except the rad (and rad plumbing) from chargecooling.co.uk. Fitting it is another matter. If you want someone else to fit it for you, you'll do well to get it all in for under £1000.
Quote from: "muffdan"Go for the charge cooler if you can, but you're right in it's not cheap. Parts wise you can get everything you need except the rad (and rad plumbing) from chargecooling.co.uk. Fitting it is another matter. If you want someone else to fit it for you, you'll do well to get it all in for under £1000.
Cripes s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: ! In that case, with re-map and HP fuel pump, I will have knocked out over £5k on this s:scared: :scared: s:scared: and it isn't exactly a major project. Oh well.
Jason, did you ever measure your intake temps when later stage IC, ideally after spirited road use in summer? I'd like to know what if any reduction under the 70's this IC might achieve?
You can do it cheaper than that. My Charge cooler isn't fitted yet but I have all the components and it was no more than £400 spent. I also have WI, which is cheap as long as you don't go for a custom tank like I did.
I can give you any details you need.
Which ever way you go you'll need it mapped. Why the Hp fuel pump?
Quote from: "custardavenger"Why the Hp fuel pump?
Number of reasons now, but mainly as Noble highlighted it when mapping as they said even with max fuel adjust on EMB it was at it's limits, as if it could do with more pressure in the rail. I have 310cc 2zz injectors in which whilst bigger aren't exactly huge so the extra pressure may help with achieving greater fueling levels. I've also read here that it's a worthwhile safety measure and I understand a fairly easy mod. Was thinking about an MWR unit, 255lph, $115 plus del and tax.
you can do chargecooling on a budget given patience mine cam in at about £600
the only expensive bit is the heat exchanger
£40 ish for a metro rad
£30 for some hose
£200 for resevoir and pump
it can be done with patience
I'm not too sure that the HP pump will sort out you fuelling issue, You may find you need injectors as well.
I suppose WI may be good for you as running 50water/50meth, as normally installing it you would take fuel off when the WI reaches max.
Did Noble not suggest which way to go? re cooling?
Quote from: "markiii"you can do chargecooling on a budget given patience mine cam in at about £600
Was that £600 total parts cost, with self fit?
I'm not in any real rush, well no more than summer is s:lol: :lol: s:lol: .
Quote from: "custardavenger"Did Noble not suggest which way to go? re cooling?
Not really, well no more than that a PWR barrel would fit in the area where the stock airbox was and where my intake piping from comp to TB now runs, but as it was the first map cooling wasn't on the agenda, just set up. S'pose I should've asked further s:? :? s:? .
That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.
never got actual temp readings with the rad, just what I noticed through the peddal.
Just to re-interate, the price I gave was if you are getting a garage to install the kit for you. It takes a lot of time and time is a lot of money! If you can be bothered to fit the kit yourself and arrange any custom pipe work etc yourself, you can definitely get it done for around the £700 mark I think. Below is a copy of my invoice for the main parts. Rad was an extra £40, and then there was a set of elbows/adapters etc to connect it all up along with inlet pipe work etc to get the barrel hooked into the intake.
Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x 5" x 6" Chargecooler (5x6) = £365.00
1 x AVT / Bosch Chargecooler Pump (CCPump) = £89.99
2 x AVT Universal Chargecooler Piping Kit (Pipekit) = £70.00
1 x AVT Alloy Chargecooler Header Tank (CCTank) = £65.00
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: £589.99
Flat Rate (Best Way): £9.95
Total: £599.94
Quote from: "custardavenger"That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.
Interesting, I'll try and check it out, ta. When is your CC install planned?
My kit is still for sale. Same price.
I'm thinking that if it doesn't sell soon I will probably get it fitted in the VXT along with a new exhaust at the back end of the summer. If it sells before then I'm not too fussed.
Phil
Quote from: "AC"Quote from: "custardavenger"That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.
Interesting, I'll try and check it out, ta. When is your CC install planned?
Not until the summer. I plan to get the WI up and running first and then get a proper tune. I'm probably getting a new manifold made first as well. I plan to have custom pipework made for the CC or I would have in installed now.
Whilst investigating the IC route further the Mk2 3SGTE SW20 side air vent positioned set up kept appearing (from ebay as it happens s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ).
Maybe a stupid question but, has anybody experimented/tried fitting an IC in the n/s air vent on the Mk3? I understand it's a low pressure intake and that's a compromise straight off, but wasn't it also LP on the Mk2?
Another thought that crossed my mind was whether an IC positioned directly below the engine cover vents/slashes, where the drip tray normally exists. Anybody tried, any thoughts???
Mine currently has an IC in the engine cove vent. I have fans permanently pulling air through it. It does work but is not as efficient as a CC would be, that's why I'm changing it.
I may have missed it, Which turbo kit have you got? Also I'm assuming the BHP number is calculated crank?
There are many options for underslung IC but I really believe you money is better spent on a CC.
Cheers Rob.
Quote from: "custardavenger"Which turbo kit have you got? Also I'm assuming the BHP number is calculated crank?
Apexi, not many others with same (if any?). The HP is at the flywheel according to Noble's dyno.
Some pics on here if you haven't seen the kit before. Not that dissimilar to the PE.
l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27099 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27099) l
Oh OK. Well that set up screams CC looking at the pipe routing.
agreed I reckon a 6" x 4" barrel would fit happily
mine is an 8 x 4 barrel. Enough to provide cooling for up to 290bhp so more than enough for any set up that doesn't involve changing the engine internals
Phil
so what are you selling it for Phil?
I bought it for the '2 then sold it before I fitted it. I don't really want to fit it to the VXT as i'd have to do an exhaust to get any benefit and that's around £1300 extra. Then i'd need a remap and then your into uprated suspension, brakes etc. Next thing you know you've spent another 5 grand. I don't really have the cash, or the inclination to do all that to this car as I don't know how long I'll keep it.
I still have the kit in the box in my shed waiting for someone to come and take it away
Phil
Re: the original question.....
Thats a difficult one: I did a lot of research with WI a few years ago, when I had my Mk1 AE101 Supercharger setup.
The plan was to replace the VERY inefficient IC setup with a WI install...Theory being that the "latent heat of evaporation" would extract more heat out of the charge than the IC.....
That did prove the case, but I have to point out that if the IC setup had been optimal (ie: front-mounted, and a lot bigger), then the A2A would be better.
The Mk3 has a similar setup to the Mk1, with the addition of the very useful passenger side vent!
I also played with a CC setup from a Subaru Legacy (cheap off Ebay!), which is very similar to the GT4 CC setup commonly used by the MK2 tubby guys......
I was planning to mount the CC setup with a Spal fitted, and a custom pass-side vent...pretty much what the Mk3 has, basically... s:D :D s:D
The CC is probably the best overall way to go, but an optimised A2A setup will beat it every time: however, with the MR2, this optimal setup is almost impossible to achieve (without a lot of clever pipework, and loads of pressure-drop!).
The WI route would give good results, but I must stress its not simply a case of buying an Aquamist 1S, fitting it, and voila!
Ideally, you need to match the water (or methanol) to the fuelling, and the whole setup needs tuning......potentially a very good setup, especially with higher boosts...but requires correct implementation.... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Overall, CC would be my choice!
Thats the same charge cooler I looked at first. I thought it could fit if you moved the battery to the front then there would be enough space there in its place.
Quote from: "AC"Charge Cooling
Other than Phil's PWR kit being for sale (though that might have changed?) I don't have a great deal of finished options identified.
+ The most effective single cooling solution, possibly worth a further 20hp?
- Not a DIY job (for me anyway), quite an involved install from what I can see.
- So labour costs an additional consideration, possibly a full day's?
- Finished cost may be as high as £1000 once fitted s:scared: :scared: s:scared: .
Unless you're set for the Chargecooler brand, you might wanna check this thread too:
l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27056 (http://mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27056) l
I'm looking at some 300 euros with everything. The A2W cooler is about 150e shipped, the Bosch water pump was about 40e and a VW radiator another 40e, with 5e for parts to mod it. 13e for the hose, about 10e for two bleed/fill points and I count no value to connectors made from leftover metal around the garage. And then some for the coolant too, don't know the amount yet. Also bought a fan for 25e, but not sure if I even need to use it.
Maybe I should make a kit out of it and sell it for £500. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I had exactly the same dilema about 6 months ago. If you search for my previous posts you'll find some pictures where I was trying the ic in different locations.
I came to the conclusion the cc is the way to go but it's the most expensive. So the question is, do you want to spend that much cash? I decided to create my own ic install and it came in around £200 in parts. I added a shield between the exhaust and ic and took off the rain shield too. While I don't have logged results, after some sustained WOT runs, the intake pipe was warm but it could still be held comfortably, unlike the pipes on the other side of the ic!
If it gets too hot in the summer then I was going to make a scoop to fit on top of the engine lid (maybe take an old impreza scoop...). Which should bring more air through the ic. In my mind, there should be a pressure drop behind the car too which should help pull the air through. I may need to make some more vents behind the ic too but it's working well for me (205 bhp, 6.5psi).
You could always go for ic and add wi later which is triggered by a temperature signal...
Well I made the choice, just last week, so thought an update is in order.
Initially I was leaning towards IC for simplicity, ease of fit (and forget) and the fact that it seems to work for many turbo owners here. I knew my exhaust set up would make this difficult as I have a Magnex twin which fits like the stock and uses a similar amount of space; one reason the C2, Hass and other unique IC's probably work is due to the change or even removal of the normal sized cat and silencer. Having bought the Magnex fairly recently and the H&S race cat with the turbo I wasn't about to start changing all that. So IC options boiled down to something similar to the TTET or a bespoke. I did spend time on the latter, considered a Sierra Cosworth 4x4 IC mounted above the black exhaust heat shield with the idea of air flowing down through the engine cover grille, through the IC and out the slot/vent in the back bumper, but dimensions didn't quite work and no doubt being above the silencer would already comprise cooling ability. So IC wise the TTET solution was really only the workable IC without changing lots of stuff. So I got in touch with Matt at SP and encouragingly he has evolved the TTET IC to a beefier higher performance unit for the latest SP turbo kit. Matt has this very set up on the SP demo car which runs 240hp and gets hard track use, so IC effectiveness is proven/known. Matt sent me a couple of pics of the SP IC (hopefully he won't mind me posting them?).
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/IC1.jpg)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/IC2.jpg)
Anybody who knows the TTET IC will instantly see it's a much improved unit. Dimensionally the core is 220x205x60mm. It sits in exactly the same place as the TTET IC soaking up the cold air flowing under the car. On paper this solution offered a quick win; Matt has all the fittings required, IC mounts, IC to TB hard pipe with BOV outlet if required, hoses, clips. All I would need is a compressor to IC pipe and even that could use the SP hard pipe up past the d/shaft with just a couple of silicone bends and a hard joiner probably required to complete the install s:) :) s:) . For any TTET people out there looking to improve their set up and maybe pursue some more horses then the SP upgrade would work nicely I'd think s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .
So, what did I choose s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?: A 4x6 PWR chargecooler kit s:roll: :roll: s:roll: . Why? A couple of reasons.
1. First off the Apexi blower made far more power than I expected at first map, 230hp with no cooling and (now arguably) undersized injectors. I was expecting it to make similar power to the uncooled PE (200hp ish) and if had the SP IC would be a good match taking me up but not past 240hp. I now reckon this Apexi kit with good cooling and 440cc's (now fitted) could reach or even pass 250hp and at that level I wonder whether the SP IC would have been effective enough.
2. Secondly, the final cost of the SP IC with all fittings (less the fix from my compressor outlet to start of SP comp to IC hard pipe) was coming in around £530 with a nearly new IC Matt has knocking about (that would save me £100 as the new SP IC alone is £300). That takes the IC option right into CC territory for parts alone.
3. Finally, consensus above was that CC would be the best (but also most expensive) solution. Thanks for all your responses guys s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: .
With the difficulties of intake cooling on mid engined cars i.e. airflow, and the Apexi already suited to a barrel CC (turbo on top of manifold, outlet facing to left of car) the decision was reached. The one big advantage to the SP IC was that even a noob like me could fit it and that in turn meant no labour cost. The CC however is a more complex job, but stuff it, I've done my research (on here, mainly from Markiii and kanujunkie post) and in a Jeremy Clarkson style I said "how hard can it be" s:lol: :lol: s:lol: . Yep, its going to be a self fit s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . I'll post up the damage caused back on my Apexi thread very shortly when its done.
nice on, mind if I ask how much teh PWR cost you in the end?
anything I can help with from my CC install just shout
Good choice s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "markiii"nice on, mind if I ask how much the PWR cost you in the end?
anything I can help with from my CC install just shout
Thanks Mark. Might be on to you about the +ve feed you took from the front fuse box on yours.
I ended up buying a full kit from AVT; 4x6 barrel, Bosch pump, 26x7" twin pass alloy rad, alloy inline filler, 10m of woven pipe with fittings and clips. David Gentlemen of AVT was a very helpful chap indeed, answered my millions of questions, gave me a few tips, was good to do business with. I persisted with him on the price front and eventually a small discount and free delivery brought the kit to my door for £615.
I did start looking at saving cost, was sourcing a pre 84 Metro turbo rad but these are like rocking horse poo now, most companies with any kind of availability were quoting £100 - £130 just for the steel rad s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: . So I binned that and just took the full kit. I made a useful find on ebay; a wiring harness from a Magnuson Supercharger kit for the Bosch pump, complete with inline fuse and relay, for £20, so had it quick as I'm absolutely pants with any electrics other than ICE.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/MagnusonharnessforBoschwaterpump.jpg)
thats a damn good price not a whole lot more than I paid for mine
If I can sweet talk Jo into bringing her roadster when I see her this weekend I'll take you a pic
We took a tap from the +ve feed to the wiper motor for my pump, if it's any help.
Ok, now in possession of all the parts needed for the CC install, well except coolant but that's no biggy. On the coolant front David at AVT advised a minimal coolant to water ratio as apparently coolant is less effective than water at dissipating heat??? I was thinking of a 33/66, what have other peeps gone with? Also any idea's on fluid volume, I was reckoning 8 - 10 litres full?
Most will know this, but the CC kit as it comes from AVT isn't quite everything you need to complete the job. Obviously provides the essentials of (in my case) 4"x6" barrel, 26"x7" twin pass alloy rad, Bosch water pump (pt no 0 392 022 002), inline alloy filler, 10m of 19mm hex woven pipe, 4 x 90 degree pipe joiners and 10 jubilee's.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/P1010050.jpg)
I still required brackets, clamps, nuts & bolts, silicone piping and some electrics, all of which will be dependent on your set-up and planned install. So in addition I bought (clockwise from left);
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/P1010053.jpg)
* 2 x Expamet HD Zinc straps 1000mm x 27.5mm x 5mm thick, from B&Q £3.38 each s:wink: :wink: s:wink: . These will be bent and cut to make the rad hangers.
* New silicone piping; 51mm to 57mm 45 degree silicone pipe, compressor to CC and 57mm to 70mm 90 degree silicone pipe, CC to TB. £32.42
(the CC isn't a Euro std thing as the inlets/outlets are 2.25" and .75" for air and water respectively, which does make finding silicone reducer bends a little more challenging).
* 1 x Expamet HD Zinc strap with twist 800mm x 27.5mm x 5mm thick, also B&Q £3.58. This will be used to support the CC and also (hopefully) brace the turbo, as it has none. I plan to fit it across the two engine lift holes, at the left end the CC support clamp will bolt on and in the middle the twist end (which will have been cut off the length) will bolt on and be bent/shaped to meet two M6 threaded holes in the compressor housing that I spotted s:) :) s:) . All that supports the turbo presently are the 5 manifold studs/nuts.
* Pump harness from a Magnuson S/C kit (lucky find on ebay tbh), which has correct plug, relay and inline fuse holder. £16.60 + USPS.
* 95 - 100mm motorcycle exhaust clamp with insulator. This is the CC support clamp as the CC body is 100mm OD. £7.59
* Weber universal fuel pump bracket (pt no 9990159400), £18.97. Surprisingly this was one of the hardest things to find, not this bracket but one the right size. It's use is for mounting the Bosch water pump which has a body diameter of 59mm. Having stripped out the front platics/frunk last weekend I plan to mount it to the back/bottom of the frunk making it the lowest part of the system and pointing the outlet straight down the water pipe tunnel under the car.
Additionally (not shown in piccy);
* 3m more of hex woven pipe as I've read 12m has been needed on other installs. £5.40
* A load of 100mm x 3.8mm cable ties for securing pipe runs. £2.79
* 16mm plug blank seeing as i'm losing the re-circ valve. £4.50
Another question; I have this Magnuson harness which has 3 ends to it (hopefully you can see in the photo).
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/P1010055.jpg)
A thick red wire ending in a ring terminal - I'm presuming this is the live feed as it runs through the inline fuse first?
A thin black wire also ending in a ring terminal - presuming this is the ground?
A yellow wire with bare end - not sure what this is for, could it be a switched live??? Anybody know please???
Finally, the piping from compressor outlet pipe, through CC and in to TB will be no more than this (nice and short s:D :D s:D , needs cutting down actually). Support clamp at end of CC where it will be running down due to difference in height of TB and comp pipe outlet and of course no BOV/BPV as no space to fit one s:? :? s:? .
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/P1010058.jpg)
Now I've listed eveything it looks like quite a bit of stuff to get fitted s:shock: :shock: s:shock: .
looks like the yellow wire is for a switch. It triggers the relay. Not sure if you need to ground it or show it 12v to activate it though. Should be clear looking at how the relay is wired, or by using a multimeter to check for continuity between the yellow and either the black or red.
Looks like you've got a good set of kit there, bet there'll be something you've overlooked though s:) :) s:) Good luck with it!
hes right about the coolant
water works better you want just enough coolant so it won't freeze
remember hot side of air feed to coldest side of the water feed
Quote from: "markiii"remember hot side of air feed to coldest side of the water feed
Is that the same as TB end, as AVT advised cold line into TB end that way the air leaving the CC going into engine will be coolest?
Mark, have you got any idea's on the harness question I pictured above, specifically the yellow wire? Jason thinks it is a switched feed, did you have one/same on your pump install?
agreed it looks like a switching live for the relay
wire it so it comes on with the ignition
That does seem like a similar wiring setup to my electric water pump controller.
Nice bits of kit there Andrew, it should be totally amazing when all installed and mapped up. s8) 8) s8)