Looking at freshening up the speakers in the mr2
wont be running an amp or sub but i have a phillips ce139dr headunit with 50w output to run them off, with all that in mind will
A- they fit without too much hassle
B- sound any good running off just the headunit
Bit of a novice with speakers so any help will be appreciated.
m http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/speaker ... t-speakers (http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/speakers/component-systems/6-5-inch-comp-17cm/jbl-cs760c-17cm-6-5-150w-component-speakers) m
RMS is matched so should be fine, not sure of the quality of the speakers never heard them before but will be a vast improvement over stock. They will fit no problem just gut the stock ones for the spacers.
Quote from: "adamjob"RMS is matched so should be fine, not sure of the quality of the speakers never heard them before but will be a vast improvement over stock. They will fit no problem just gut the stock ones for the spacers.
You can't really match them by RMS, it's sensitivity that matters. "Power" is mainly just made up numbers in terms of audio, but relates mainly to thermal power handling.
Personally I'd avoid JBL. I've just never heard a set sound nice.
At that price point I'd go for Pioneers (http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/speakers/component-systems/6-5-inch-comp-17cm/pioneer-ts-g173ci-16-5cm-280w-components) Every time.
Thanks good info there, so these and infinitys are off the list. I ll have a look at the pioneers any others under a ton worth checking out ?
If a tonne is your actual limit, check out hertz and jl audio. Hertz have a line specifically designed to run off of head unit power. Most.components are designed to pair up with an amp, and the internal amps in head units are a bit weedy to run them really well. They'll still work though.
Jl audio kit is always nice.
But if you're not amping them, I'd get the pioneers and spend the extra money on a bit of sound deadening for the door skins, and just.make time to get the install as rigid and rattle.free as possible.
m http://www.caraudiocentre.co.uk/product ... -23886.htm (http://www.caraudiocentre.co.uk/product_m-alpine-spg-17cs_p-23886.htm) m
m http://caraudiosecurity.com/tr650-csi-1 ... t-speakers (http://caraudiosecurity.com/tr650-csi-16-5cm-component-speakers) m
Last time picking your brains, so I think I might as well pay for a better set as I wont be doing it again, narrowed it to these 2 as ive spent the afternoon scouring the web and taking your advice, and they both get good reviews.
I like deep house, d&b so thats the type of music they will be dealing with.
opinions on these please.
I've had both brand before in my roadsters and the jl sounded best when running off head unit. They sounded amazing when running off an amp also, so room for upgrade in the future if you so wish.
Quote from: "s12vea"I've had both brand before in my roadsters and the jl sounded best when running off head unit. They sounded amazing when running off an amp also, so room for upgrade in the future if you so wish.
Thanks mate, were you running them on their own without a sub ? Just worried that the jl wont deliver the bass for the type of music i listen too
Quote from: "wotugonado"Quote from: "s12vea"I've had both brand before in my roadsters and the jl sounded best when running off head unit. They sounded amazing when running off an amp also, so room for upgrade in the future if you so wish.
Thanks mate, were you running them on their own without a sub ? Just worried that the jl wont deliver the bass for the type of music i listen too
Best thing you can do in a Roadster is get those JL's, and get a 2 channel amp for them, as well as take the time to sound deaden the door skins and really install the speakers firlmy in the door. Amping speakers makes a WORLD of difference. You can basically get away without a sub (and al lthe time, cost and compexity in installing one as well as the lost space and added weight, both an issue in the '2) by amping 6.5" speakers and installing them properly. You won't get the Chest compression from a true sub, but you will get a surprising amount of thump. Plus it'll be WAY more musical and balanced than an un-amplified set of components overwhelmed by a cheap over-amplified sub.
Welcome to the world of car audio feature creep: A £50 set of speaker becomes a £200 audio overhaul (Or in my case, a £700 BMW ends up competing in IASCA with £3k's worth of kit in it and a years installing and tuning!).
Either of these will be fine:
m http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/amplifi ... -amplifier (http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/amplifiers/two-channel-amps/pioneer-gm-a3602-2-channel-400w-bridgeable-amplifier) m
m http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/amplifi ... zia2080hpx (http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/amplifiers/two-channel-amps/ground-zero-iridium-gzia2080hpx) m
OR if you can find a genesis Profile 2 Amplifier (ebay link if you fancy a risk (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genesis-Car-Amp-profile-two-/201437577594?hash=item2ee69d817a)) for £50 to £60 they're the mutts.
Ha thanks, yeah this car has a habit of costs spiralling out of control so why should the stereo system buck the trend. Jl it is then. I think i may still have my amps from my first car in my loft so may end up digging them out now s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:) :) s:) Thanks guys for the input appreciate it.
That's excellent bit of info that Joecool. I have been in the same predicament. I too have the same head unit. I partly sound proofed the doors and put some Infinity composite speakers in. It was an improvement on stock but not what I was hoping for.
The info you have just supplied has made me realise where I may have gone wrong. Sorry Wotugonado for jumping on your thread. Think you bought the HU off the same guy I bought the Inffinity speakers off s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Tom
Well the deal is done jl's on order for a bargain £83.00 delivered to my door, everywhere else wanted over £90.00 quid plus delivery s:D :D s:D
Hi Tom, the infinitys didnt get great reviews when i looked, so i walked away from them as an option. But amping them may make a difference for you hopefully.
Looks like im going to be up in the loft later searching for the amp ha ha its spiralling s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
So i will be back with more questions for you all, you've gone and made a rod for your own back now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Good choice. I ran a full JL front and rears set in my Type R with a JL amp and it sounded superb. So good in fact I took the Sub out as it didn't really add anything and I could not seem to make it integrate properly.
JL make good speakers but if you want any kind of bass (without a sub) you will need to amp them and fully sound deaden your doors. Your HU is about about 15w RMS (regardless of what the specs say) The JLs need a clean 40W+ RMS to really make them come alive.
Nice s:) :) s:) looking forward to getting these now. Amp looks like the way forward then, up the loft I go.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh562/wotugonado/Mobile%20Uploads/a3705c4c-9a23-4847-a801-efba58008c9f_zps216e1kc3.jpg) (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/wotugonado/media/Mobile%20Uploads/a3705c4c-9a23-4847-a801-efba58008c9f_zps216e1kc3.jpg.html)
Found it ! My old kenwood amp and wiring kit
Sorry for slow reply. Now you have the speaker plus amp your sorted!
Don't forget to sound proof the doors if not already done.
Thanks.
So flashband will suffice for the sound deadening, just slap it all over the inner door skin ?
I think I will have to mount the amp behind the passenger seat, any tips to fix it in position ?
Flash tape works well just don't block the drain holes. Velcro behind seat or make up something to mount in cubby hole.
It will be worth it when done
For the amp take out the passenger bin, it's just 5 10mm bolts and bolt it into the bin plastics. The last thing you want if you're unlucky enough to have a front end impact is the amp flying forward into the cabin. Plus you need the bin out anyway as the earth mount is under it.
The amp was too big to go in the bins and too fat to go under the seat, so behind the passenger seat was my only realistic option. Also too late now as its fitted and powers connected s:) :) s:)
Next question how the frig do you get the new speaker cable through the door to the new speaker or should I just link into the existing wires at the head unit ?
I had a look but couldn't even find the entry into the car is it behind the dash ?
Quote from: "wotugonado"Next question how the frig do you get the new speaker cable through the door to the new speaker or should I just link into the existing wires at the head unit ? I had a look but couldn't even find the entry into the car is it behind the dash ?
You can break into the stock wiring behind the HU as the easiest option. I did this with my edge speakers as they are budget speakers and don't have a crossover so the stock wiring speaker/tweeter plugs in the doors were re-usable. The stock wiring is not too bad.
If your new speakers have a separate passive crossover and you want the best signal to them, then I'm afraid you need to run new wires into the doors. The entry point is not behind the dash, if you remove the kick panels and look up above you should see it. Having said that the easiest (and its not that easy) way is to take the stock speaker out, and feed the wire from the inside of the door through the rubber gromit and into the cabin. Get one of those flexible white curtain wire/rail things and rub some fairly liquid on, then attach the wiring to the other end. They are flexible enough to run through the gromit but strong enough to push through without bending.
I have to do this job when my new JL speakers arrive later this week - not looking forward to it either.
Running new wires through the grommet isn't so bad. You just need patience, coupled with freakishly long arms and squirrel like hands. s;-) ;-) s;-)
Good luck.
I learnt it least six new swear words doing my heated mirrors. Just be patient dude. :-) :-) :-)
Cheers guys good tips there, well as with everything on this car it spirals, so in for a penny in for a pound new cables it is.
Reckon I will beat your quota of 6 swear words stu, I have no patience for this type of fiddly stuff s:) :) s:)
Sounds like a challenge matey! s;-) ;-) s;-)
Right cable through the grommet was easy took about 10 mins which I was well pleased with as I thought it was gonna be a real nightmare.
Right bit im stuck with is the sound deadening of the door. Do I take the clear plastic sheet off first or just put the flash band over the top ? Does the handle mechanism come off or just cut round it ?
Bearing in mind the stuff is sticky as hell and melts in the heat do I want that all over the cable connections.
Quote from: "wotugonado"Right cable through the grommet was easy took about 10 mins which I was well pleased with as I thought it was gonna be a real nightmare.
Right bit I'm stuck with is the sound deadening of the door. Do I take the clear plastic sheet off first or just put the flash band over the top ? Does the handle mechanism come off or just cut round it ?
Bearing in mind the stuff is sticky as hell and melts in the heat do I want that all over the cable connections.
You want to mass load the outer door skins behind where the speaker is. Think of it as giving a solid back surface for the speaker to fire off, and to prevent resonance.
UNless you're going all out, it's not super critical. If you're serious, you make up a baffle board ot seal up the inner door skin, then mass load both outer and inner door skin to try and make a bit of an 'enclosure'. But all of your easy gains are made in just mass loading that outer door skin, to prevent it 'ringing'. I wouldn't even bother mass loading the inner door skin/cage unless you're going all out.
Been upgrading my amp and speakers today. I ran the wiring through the doors, what a pita! lol
If you want to see some pics of the door with the flashing tape on check out my old posts, I posted up plenty. For mine I did behind the speaker and covered the metal door skin that's behind the plastic door card. I found the more of an enclosure you can create, the better it will sound.
Next (& hopefully last)questions, can any of you audio geniuses help ?
m http://images.owneriq.net/download/imag ... 000001.png (http://images.owneriq.net/download/images/6/6855f051-d484-4512-95ad-1418433f06b0-000001.png) m
Thats a link to my amp manual, i could do with some help to decipher it please.
So what i want is to make it a 2 channel set up Front left and front right, it's got 2 separate amps in it, so ive set the switch to the A setting so both amps amplify the
single input (My headunit) this is where im now stuck.....
Do i put my speaker cables into the A only amplifier output or put one speaker cable in the A amplifier and the other speaker cable into the B amplifier ?
Can i bridge them in stereo or only mono ?
Im confused !!!!!!!!!!
HI mate.
You're looking to do the bottom of the "2 channel" System diagrams. That Bridges the amp in to 2 channels from 4.
You input the Left speaker Coaxial input from headunit into "Channel A - Left"
You input the RIght Speaker Coaxial input from headunit into "Channel B - Left"
Then on channel A output you wire up your left speaker cable as shown, into the crossover and then on to Tweeter and Woofer as normal.
Channel B, same thing with right speaker as shown.
Get the switches right!
That should give you 80W x2 channels. IT comes at the expense of the amp running a bit hotter and marginally worse sound quality, but unlikely to be noticeable.
If you really want to Keep it simple, or leave 2 channels free for a sub later, you can follow the upper 2 channel system diagram and just use Channel A left and right, for 30W a channel. But it's ver simple to reconfigure the system later, just swap the inputs and outputs about.
You superstar!!! Thanks.
Its Fried my brain trying to work that out s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Out of curiosity, if you were to want to add two rear speakers would that just be a 4-channel setup? And how would that work if you also had a subwoofer? And even more...how would that work if you had a subwoofer with integrated amp?
Would you need a 5 channel amp?
Quote from: "shnazzle"Out of curiosity, if you were to want to add two rear speakers would that just be a 4-channel setup? And how would that work if you also had a subwoofer? And even more...how would that work if you had a subwoofer with integrated amp?
Would you need a 5 channel amp?
Thats why 4 channel amps are great. They're really versatile.
So if you wanted 4 sets of speakers, you'd just use all channels separate at 30w a channel.
Or you can run front left and right speakers on the channel A stereo pair, and then Bridge channel B Into a mono channel to power a sub woofer. Thats a 3 channel set up.
They almost always have a signal pass through, so you could feed a signal on to a separate sub amp for 4 speakers plus sub woofer. Or else the head unit can have a separate set of coaxial outputs for sub on its own. That way you can control sub woofer crossover point and volume from the head unit, which can be very useful.
There are some good 5 channel amps around. They're awesome because they have a powerful sub channel, and also because you can use them to do a 2 way active front end using digital processing in the head unit plus a sub woofer.....
It's complicated....
It's complicated....
Yes it is, my head still aches from yesterdays failed attempt to decipher the manual s:) :) s:)
But thanks to all the help from everyone on this thread, its up an running.
havent really tested it yet, but even at low volume the sound quality is night and day.
Well pleased with the jl speakers, put on a bit of old skool d&b and they sounded quality.
Hoping for good weather tomorrow for a run out and full test of the system.
Here's a system diagram showing a simple 2 way front end and a sub driven off of a 4 channel amp, to simplify things:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb169/WeirdNeville/BMW/BMW%20Ice/SimplesystemMap.jpg)
This was the 'Amp Rack' in my BMW:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb169/WeirdNeville/BMW/BMW%20Ice/P1040412-1.jpg)
That's a DLS Ultimate A5 3 Channel amp and a DLS A3 Dual Mono. - So 5 channels of Amplification. It ran an 'active' front end, that is the Head unit itself did all the processing and signal splitting digitally and sent a signal to each of the speakers directly, so no external 'passive' crossovers at all.
Here's the system diagram:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb169/WeirdNeville/System1_zpsw3xw3yjx.jpeg)
IT ended up with each Tweeter getting 80W, Each mid bass driver getting about 150W, and the sub getting 500W.
It was fairly stealthy:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb169/WeirdNeville/BMW/BMW%20Ice/P1040413-1.jpg)
And it absolutely rocked. I spent a lot of time getting the speakers in the kick panels properly sealed off to support the mid-bass. I do still miss that system, it was particularly brutal with Electro and Hip Hop. The digital crossovers and time alignment and all adjustments made from the head unit made for a tweakers heaven and a perfectionists hell. So much to play with. I've sold that head unit now in favour of a KISS ethos!!
JoeCool... You and I need to talk... You clearly know how all this works. I'm impressed. And now I'm no longer happy with my perfectly adequate sound system.
Thank you... And a sarcastic thank you as well.
Wotugonado, did the adding of the amp really make such a massive difference?
Quote from: "shnazzle"JoeCool... You and I need to talk... You clearly know how all this works. I'm impressed. And now I'm no longer happy with my perfectly adequate sound system.
Thank you... And a sarcastic thank you as well.
Honestly, having been there, I can honestly say It ISN'T worth the money, time or effort!! Especially not in light weight sports cars. If you amp up some front compoentens and slap a bit of sound deadening in the doors, you've got 90% of the performance for 10% of the effort.
Everything beyond that is just painful effort, hard work, dimishing returns... etc etc. I've been down to the heater matrix in all but my most recent car in the name of Audio. Not worth it!
If you want a fun car with a decent stereo, do the easy wins.
If you want the best psosible stereo in a car, sell the MR2 and buy a Lexus or Merc S class or Hyundai Coupe (Bizarrely good acoustics for some reason).
I've tried al lthe options, and I can honestly say I was most pleased by the bang for buck of a simple 2 way front end + sub in a Nissan 200SX. The BMW beat it into a scock cock scock ed hat in terms of sound quality but it honestly took about a year to install and set up properly. And the MK1 MR2 I just never got to sound right, and regretted hacking about a mint 1 owner car to try it.
Oy nobody asked for your opinion haha!
You're biased because you've had that super-amped-Heineken-Music-Halls BMW.
I kid.
So what I'm wondering is, my head unit (Sony BT90 double din or something) has 6 RCA outs; 2 woofer, and left and right for front and rear.
What would I gain by adding an external amp and two better 16.5cm units+tweeters+crossover over just replacing the existing 16.5cm units and tweeters?
Quote from: " shnazzle"So what I'm wondering is, my head unit (Sony BT90 double din or something) has 6 RCA outs; 2 woofer, and left and right for front and rear.
What would I gain by adding an external amp and two better 16.5cm units+tweeters+crossover over just replacing the existing 16.5cm units and tweeters?
Mainly it's about control. 6.5" speakers are quite big and have a bit of mass to shift, and frankly the amplifier inside a head unit doesn't cut it. IT needs to swing currents and voltages about to retain control of the moving mass of the speaker cone. Plus they tend to 'clip' the signal at relatively low volume, which is when the music sounds distorted.
An external amp just gives you the reserves of power you need to retain proper control of the speaker. it will go louder, but that's a byproduct of the better control of the speaker system.
The other factor is that most component systems are intended to be amplified, so they're designed around an actual 30-50W of power, not the 10-12W a head unit provides. They're not sensitive enough to use head unit power effectively. so they can be disappointing if you spend £80 on speakers and don't amp them, and spending £200 or more is utterly pointless if you're not amping them.
Quote from: "wotugonado"It's complicated....
Yes it is, my head still aches from yesterdays failed attempt to decipher the manual s:) :) s:)
But thanks to all the help from everyone on this thread, its up an running.
havent really tested it yet, but even at low volume the sound quality is night and day.
Well pleased with the jl speakers, put on a bit of old skool d&b and they sounded quality.
Hoping for good weather tomorrow for a run out and full test of the system.
Do you know how to set your gains up properly? That will help you get the maximum out of your amplifier. Also remember Gain is NOT volume!
1) Set all the head unit EQ settings off - so 'Flat' and none of that 'pop' or 'rock' settings. Treble and Bass set to 0 as well.
2) Same if the amp has any kind of bass boost function, just switch it off.
3) Set the amp gains on both channel A and Channel B to low.
4) Now turn up your head unit volume until you hear it distort. This might be quite quiet because the gains are low, but you'll hear the speakers go flappy /crackly and lose control. Turn the volume down a few notches until it's clean again. This is now your head units maximum clean signal, and the max useable volume on your headunit.
5) At that volume, now turn up the gains gradually on the Amp channels. Keep the L/R balance as best you can as you now have one gain per channel.
6) At some point, you will again hear the music begin to break up/go crackly or wooly. You have again hit 'clipping' only now it's your amp clipping the signal not the head unit's output stage. THis could be REALLY LOUD depending.
7) Wind your amp gains back a smidge.
s8) 8) s8) make any tone tweaks you want to to adjust the music to your taste, but keep it sensible, just a couple of notches either way for any setting. Properly set up, your JL's should offer a good and realistic reproduciton of the music.
That's a rough and ready way to set your gains. So long as you don't go over your max permissable head unit volume, you're getting the most out of your amps without risking damage. CLipping is what kills speakers. All those horrible flappy sounding subs you hear are clipping to hell because they're badly set up.
Snazzle , what he said ^^^^ as if I have a clue about any of this audio lark rofl s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: but thanks for asking s:) :) s:)
the only thing I can add from my basic laymans pov is look at the size of standalone amps then ask how they claim to pack the equivalent power output into your headunit thats a 3rd of the size, I dont think so. Bigger must be better, right ? s:) :) s:)
Its a slippery slope though I only wanted some upgraded speakers now ive got a bloody great amp in there too.
Mr Cool more top tips thanks,i will do that tomorrow. All I did was turn down the bass, treble and volume put all the gains to minimum turned up the volume on the headunit to about 6 then just notched the gains until the sound was about where i expect it to be for that volume level. Not very scientific, guess work i think you could call it s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "JoeCool"The other factor is that most component systems are intended to be amplified, so they're designed around an actual 30-50W of power, not the 10-12W a head unit provides. They're not sensitive enough to use head unit power effectively. so they can be disappointing if you spend £80 on speakers and don't amp them, and spending £200 or more is utterly pointless if you're not amping them..
Very true and I've seen folks on here fall into that trap including myself many years ago. My first attempt was a pair of £120 focals without sound deadening running of the HUs internal amp and they sounded dreadful lol!
As a reference to setting up the amps here are my settings. MR2s seems to have some very strange dead spots and cabinet gains that generally screw up the sound. My amp is 70W RMS a channel fronts or about 120w bridged/sub channel
Amp Setup
Front Channel;
HPF on the amp is set to roll off anything below 80hz
Gain about 10 o'clock on the amp
Rear channel - Sub bridged;
LPF (Sub x-over) is at 100 to 120hz ish, so some overlap between the fronts and sub.
Gain is at 12 o'clock, so slightly more gain on sub vs fronts
Head Units EQ setup
This bit I found makes a big difference and I am lucky that my JVC HU lets you set the frequency as well as the gain/cut. The two critical ones in the MR2 seem to be cutting 2.5khz and adding gain to 200hz mid bass.
Bass 200hz + 3db
Mid 2.5khz - 1db or even - 2db
Treble 12.5khz + 1db
Component Crossovers in the doors have the tweeters set at reference level (no gain or cut). I am only using the HUs EQ.
Rear channel
Well ive set it up following the above advice and wow, its crystal up until about 43 out of the the maximum 50 setting on the headunit volume. I wont ever need it that loud! Its fantastic. Katy b's voice and foo fighters -all my life gave me actual goosebumps when listening to it. Great advice on which speakers and how to set it all up, much appreciated lads s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Glad you got results. Easy when you know how! Enjoy.
Glad you got it sorted mate. Really need to get mine sorted. I have the stuff just need the time.
Quote from: "JoeCool"Glad you got results. Easy when you know how! Enjoy.
Ha yep easy when you can pick someone elses brain.
Quote from: "s12vea"Glad you got it sorted mate. Really need to get mine sorted. I have the stuff just need the time.
You know you need it in your life s:) :) s:) chuck a sickie in the week and fit it s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I just might have to hahaha
I'm jealous now haha. I'm going to be after an amp and some nicer door speakers soon.
I'm never going to have to cash together to get my wheels done and respray the front bumper at this rate
Its this forum, you see it you want it. Ive got a full body kit waiting to be painted for the last 12 months plus cuz I keep spending the money on other things. Stargazer selling some amps got one for about £30 be a good starting point for you.