Hi folks, is there anything I can do to add a bit of extra response from my mr2? I bought one with the tte twin exhaust already fitted, but I assume a better air filter would help too? Is there anything else people can suggest other than trying to add a turbo?
Besides a good service and removal of the precats out of the manifold i would maybe go markiii inlet pipe. For big gains you are looking at either a turbo conversion or the infamous 2zz swap which lots have done
You wont get much extra power from the 1zz unless you go FI
Very little gains from upgrading the intake system (other than noise) as Toyota did a good job of the stock system
Decat manifold and a "Sport" cat will realise the most gains, but even then it's minimal
Would you recommend a good engine clean?
The jury is 50 50 on things engine flushing
Some like, some don't.
All however agree on regular oil changes.
Drop what you've got, fill up with some cheap stuff, run it, drop it.
Fill with nice stuff. + filter, obviously.
Change 6 monthly as many on here do.
With an NA engine best 'bang for the buck' is:
Free flowing exhaust
Decat manifold
Stock airbox with drop in aftermarket filter
Upgrade of the pipe going into the airbox (stock one is restrictive - I am currently using some brake ducting)
Further performance gains can be made by some slight weight reduction
There is also a MAF mod which raises the MAF up slightly meaning the signal to the ECU is slightly out on the airflow, you need to upgrade the injectors to keep the knock in check but this is another mod without getting a standalone ECU.
There are also piggyback ECU options which might give a bit more power - mainly optimising the VVTi advance points, but on an NA you won't be getting huge gains.
Cheapest gains in terms of power to weight come from weight reduction - removing the rear bins, tool kit and frunk trim will net you a good starting weight saving.
I must say I disagree with Marki pipe and aftermarket air filter improving performance.
Noise yes gives it a more sporty note but more go no.
Stock air filter flows plenty for a 2zz so flows more than enough for 1zz.
In a back to back maf voltage test, a k&n panel actually came out worse than a stock cotton panel and markiii pipe.
Same time, same stretch of road (slightly uphill) , max throttle.
That was before I cleaned it though (and sold it). Maf voltage difference was tiny.
Bit more growl noise.
What I did notice though was that although max flow doesn't change, the initial resistance to flow on the sports panels is lower. I.e. The MAF voltage climbed to max quicker than it did on the stock panel. So, bit more throttle response feel low-rpm. High rpm, it makes no difference.
Piggyback is unlikely to touch vvti unless you alter key signals used to determine that using specific outputs. What it does allow you to do is change timing and fueling in open loop areas for a noticeable, but small, difference in output
For me with an NA car a 'performance panel filter' doesn't give extra power, just better throttle response which although won't mean you win on the dyno its an upgrade that you can feel on the road - plus the added noise adds to the enjoyment s:D :D s:D
You guys know your stuff! My head is adjusting lol
Depending on service history a good service if not done recently clean the MAF and reset the ecu
Toyota got pretty much the most out of the 1ZZ spend a shedload and you can get to 171BHP :-) :-) :-) or save up and go turbo problem with 2ZZ is you need to rev the nuts off to get into lift and if you move on it's staying put whereas you can remove the turbo install and recoup some cash
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Quote from: "michaelb"You guys know your stuff! My head is adjusting lol
It's all smoke and mirrors haha.
Hang around here long enough and you'll be speaking the lingo s:) :) s:)
What's MAF? Lol
Quote from: "michaelb"What's MAF? Lol
m https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor) m s:) :) s:)
Worth pointing out that for power mods on an NA it gets very expensive once you go past a few basics, gains on a turbo are more cost effective so I would suggest looking at a few simple power mods and keep the engine maintained.
I would then start to focus on parts that actually make the car faster - tyres, brakes and suspension.
You will be able to out corner and out brake other more powerful cars with the right combo - the MR2 is very tyre sensitive including tyre pressures.
An example of this is the below article, a guy spent years tweaking his diesel powered Citron AX and ran a 9:55 round the Nurburgring:
m https://jalopnik.com/this-might-be-the- ... 1512419630 (https://jalopnik.com/this-might-be-the-craziest-lap-of-the-nurburgring-youll-1512419630) m
I would suggest your first upgrade should be tyres s:) :) s:)
MB
A 2 with fresh stock parts, brakes, shocks+springs, TYRES quality geo setup, plugs, air filter Etc. Will be all over most other cars in the twistys. Yes you will most likely be out gunned on a straight, but these are all about handling.
However, not mentioned in this thread, but many times elsewhere, the best performance/£ upgrade is in driver training.
I say that in general terms as you maybe a driving guru for all i know.
But hopefully you take my point in the spirit it is meant.
Type car limits in the search and have a read.
Cheers mate, appreciate the advice. Would you recomend any specific performance air filters? I will get the tyres sorted soon as well.
Just don't bother with engine mods.
Tyres
Driver training
Suspension
Good quality pads
Theyre the best upgrades unless you go forced induction.
Quote from: "michaelb"Cheers mate, appreciate the advice. Would you recomend any specific performance air filters? I will get the tyres sorted soon as well.
I cannot recommend any performance air filters having never used any.
Can only second what scott said earlier 1zz 2zz same filter and the 2zz sucks a lot more air when on the boil.
I've done the dyno work on drop in performance filters. Hard truth is they make no difference at all. The standard one is the same panel as used in the Celica 190, so not even slightly restrictive in the MR2.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"I've done the dyno work on drop in performance filters. Hard truth is they make no difference at all. The standard one is the same panel as used in the Celica 190, so not even slightly restrictive in the MR2.
MB
The above is what makes this forum so great, no BS, just good, honest, no nonsense enthusiast advice obtained through experience/gained knowledge. For reference, Chris runs somewhat more power than most.
tyres tyres tyres. Biggest bang for buck improvement.
You will corner far more effiecently with a good fresh set of matching tyres correctly inflated than any filter will bring to the party.
Cheers guys. You're depth of knowledge is impressive and it's reassuring to know that you guys are here and so helpful. Thank you
Quote from: "1979scotte"Just don't bother with engine mods.
Tyres
Driver training
Suspension
Good quality pads
Theyre the best upgrades unless you go forced induction.
Listen to this man.
Another one for tyres here.
Look on the forum for how many people installed a panel filter or other kind of filter and say how it transformed their car.
Now do the same for people who put, say, Yokohama AD08R tyres on.
*drops mic*
Lol "drops mic"! I like that!
Tyres and chassis bracing make a better ride. Forced induction if you realy want more power. Having said that: I realy like the maf mod. Have been running it for over 3 years in combination with exhaust and intake upgrades (mark III pipe and pipercross panel filter). Very responsive and a realy good sound (depending on which exhaust mostly, but also intake 'noise'.)
Forgot about bracing.
Add that to the bottom of the list.
Not everyone agrees but I like a mid brace and front strut brace.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Forgot about bracing.
Add that to the bottom of the list.
Not everyone agrees but I like a mid brace and front strut brace.
Ditto.
Mid brace is legendary. You feel the difference the second you back up off your drive.
Front strut is noticeable on the first decent corner. So much so that it actually caught me off guard. It was far "pointier" than it was so I oversteered a bit.
I'm a massive fan of the intake noise I get from my Hurricane. Even just an open cone behind the battery. Yeah, like for like on stock it does nowt but.. The noise... s:) :) s:)
Double Ditto on the bracing.
A brand new maf is a world of difference in relation to cleaning your old one according to a few people in other n/a cars I have spoken with, something I really want to try.
A new maf, high quality manifold, sports cat, bored out throttle body, plus piggyback may well net you 15bhp. You are looking at £1.5k. I would also recommend walnut blasting intake valves and using top quality oil. I can honestly say using Fuchs titan race pro oil does restore lost bhp.
" You are looking at £1.5k"
You can drop in a 2ZZ for that and have a guaranteed 180bhp...
Honestly, tuning a modern NA engine is a hiding to nothing, unless you're just made of money. Cams, ECU, remapping - yeah, sure, then you'll see gains, but at the expense of driveability and your relationship with your bank manager.
Quote from: "JoeCool"" You are looking at £1.5k"
You can drop in a 2ZZ for that and have a guaranteed 180bhp...
Honestly, tuning a modern NA engine is a hiding to nothing, unless you're just made of money. Cams, ECU, remapping - yeah, sure, then you'll see gains, but at the expense of driveability and your relationship with your bank manager.
I'd beg to differ on driveability mine has been mapped after all the mods and is smooth and progressive from 3,000 revs right to the limit in all gears whereas to get a 2ZZ into lift is rev the nuts off it to keep it at the top end of the Rev range
True it wasn't cheap but getting hold of a 2ZZ engine is not just a straight swop either plenty of work needed
Quote from: "bernie11a"Quote from: "JoeCool"" You are looking at £1.5k"
You can drop in a 2ZZ for that and have a guaranteed 180bhp...
Honestly, tuning a modern NA engine is a hiding to nothing, unless you're just made of money. Cams, ECU, remapping - yeah, sure, then you'll see gains, but at the expense of driveability and your relationship with your bank manager.
I'd beg to differ on driveability mine has been mapped after all the mods and is smooth and progressive from 3,000 revs right to the limit in all gears whereas to get a 2ZZ into lift is rev the nuts off it to keep it at the top end of the Rev range
True it wasn't cheap but getting hold of a 2ZZ engine is not just a straight swop either plenty of work needed
Truthfully the total actual cost of the 2zz conversion versus Bernie's setup aren't miles off from each other. Having now driven both, hands down Bernie's would be my preference.
Also, remember that Bernie's results can be achieved with slightly less premium parts,reducing the cost slightly. A Zero manifold and PPE intake are both mega bucks but might put out 2hp more over much cheaper variants.
I'd say, if you don't mind spending the cash, the modified and mapped 1zz is a fantastic daily option.
Also, you can do it in steps. So you spread the cost over as long as you want. Whereas 2zz is big bang.
You could actually get all of the hardware in before tackling the engine mapping via a piggyback or standalone (standalone is where the majority of Bernie's power is, in combo with his mods)
I was having a peek at the Monkey Wrench Racing website and spotted the standalone ECU they sell.
They have a before and after power curve for an otherwise mostly standard 1zz and the remap seems to make a significant improvement right the way through the rev range, most improvement is mid range and probably the least difference at the top end, interestingly.
The minimal increase in the headline maximum power must make it a hard sell but ironically, I expect in reality it must make a really significant difference to the way the car would actually drive on the road in the real world.
Shame it's so expensive.
Obviously with other suitable mods you would get more top end as well, as Bernie has done. I must admit this route is far more tempting than the 2zz for me too.
Just a thought on the long term stuff here through..
You could spend "similar" money and make a nice 1ZZ like Bernies or go the 2ZZ route.
However the "What next" bug will likely return and you will then be wondering what you can do.
If you know yourself and your likely behaviour it might be an option to consider something like the 2ZZ now to give you more options later on... Could be wrong and happy to be corrected!
Surely the 2zz would be far cheaper than a tuned NA 1zz.
The apexi PFC on Bernies car is 700 on its own and I am not sure you would get the same results from a piggyback.
John.
I don't trust MWR Dyno graphs and I never will.
American hp is always bigger.
Did a total from Robs files a while ago bear in mind 2ZZ is going to need an overhaul, good gearbox, exhaust mods etc and yes Robs parts were top end then, these days maybe not to far different with cheaper parts if you are good with the spanners a labour saving and yes Rob added parts over a couple of years I only added the lightweight flywheel which isn't a must have
Crower Stage 1 Cams (Monkey Wrench USA). £100
Apexi Power FC (ECU) with Commander hand controller circa £1,000
Mapping / Dyno by Noble Motorsport 171 BHP. £550
Fidanza lightweight flywheel £350
Up graded serpentine belt tensioner £75
PPE Cold Air Induction system (Monkey Wrench USA) £300
Zero - 4 into 2 Equal Length, tuned collector, Manifold SS. £575
Silverstone Performance De-cat pipe, fitted with 200 CEL Sports Cat £500
Blueflame Custom Twin Exhaust. £325
Parts Total £3,775
Pretty sure you can get a PFC for less than that these days you can certainly get alternatives for less.
Crower stage 1 cams are over 300 pounds btw. Plus shipping and tax if you have to get them from MWR.
I suppose you are going to need a custom exhaust for a 2zz so there is some saving there.
Perhaps the 2 are closer than I realised.
The thing about the MWR dyno graph was that it was a straight before and after so the actual numbers are irrelevant, the line showed the increase from standard to remapped through the rev range, even if the power is "american" BHP, it should have been the same method of measurement before and after so the percentage increase shown should apply whatever the actual BHP works out at. If it does, it looked a useful increase, particularly in the low to mid range.
That's it. That's the only way I read dyno graphs, compare before/after plots.
A lot can be down to luck. Apexi ecus have gone for 450 including commander and other stuff with a decent base map to get you to the mapper's. Then another 4-500 to fine tune for your car and mods.
Quote from: "lamcote"I was having a peek at the Monkey Wrench Racing website and spotted the standalone ECU they sell.
They have a before and after power curve for an otherwise mostly standard 1zz and the remap seems to make a significant improvement right the way through the rev range, most improvement is mid range and probably the least difference at the top end, interestingly.
The minimal increase in the headline maximum power must make it a hard sell but ironically, I expect in reality it must make a really significant difference to the way the car would actually drive on the road in the real world.
Shame it's so expensive.
Obviously with other suitable mods you would get more top end as well, as Bernie has done. I must admit this route is far more tempting than the 2zz for me too.
Your 3rd paragraph.
In spirit. Like the tte.
No big headline bhp. But a very useful 50% increase in torque.
Just my opinion but ive always felt the gearbox in a 1zz held it back a bit for me. The gearing is just too long.
I worked on a jap import 1zz roadster for someone and it was a great drive with the 4.3 final drive.
Maybe the 2zz one would help further ive never bothered to put one in but ive always felt half the appeal of the 2zz is the gearbox with proper ratios
2zz with the correct ratio box is a must.
I will never understand anyone that just fits it in with the stock roadster box.
Has anyone ever tried the 1zz with 2zz box?
Got to keep the roadsters 6th ratio. Don't want it be revving the nuts off it on the motorway.
Dean, at Rutland MR2, told me that a lot of the racers go for the JDM gearbox (with added LSD).
Quote from: "Tedtiler"Just my opinion but ive always felt the gearbox in a 1zz held it back a bit for me. The gearing is just too long.
I've only been on the forum since last year, so little knowledge so far, but have felt that too,- I'm surprised I haven't read it before. Surely if Toyota were really trying to make the 2 a 'sports car' they would have fitted a close-ratio box. If the 2zz gearbox fits it seems odd they didn't use it.....?
Quote from: "gdbd59"Quote from: "Tedtiler"Just my opinion but ive always felt the gearbox in a 1zz held it back a bit for me. The gearing is just too long.
I've only been on the forum since last year, so little knowledge so far, but have felt that too,- I'm surprised I haven't read it before. Surely if Toyota were really trying to make the 2 a 'sports car' they would have fitted a close-ratio box. If the 2zz gearbox fits it seems odd they didn't use it.....?
Yeah, +1 but I appreciate that wouldn't suit everyone (like extended motorway drives). On a good day out I'm rarely out of 2nd & 3rd, very occassional 4th, and wishing I had a bit more "resolution" (or extra gears in between, is what i mean).
Toyota always was interested in mpg for uk models, longer gearing then. Mk2 mr2 was exactly the same, jap versions got the 4.3 final drive.
Or possibly it was the headline 0 to 60 figure, getting there in second gear helped that.
0 to 60 for celica and corolla t sport was a bit tame for 190 hp. I can only assume they had to go into third
Quote from: "Tedtiler"Toyota always was interested in mpg for uk models, longer gearing then. Mk2 mr2 was exactly the same, jap versions got the 4.3 final drive.
Or possibly it was the headline 0 to 60 figure, getting there in second gear helped that.
0 to 60 for celica and corolla t sport was a bit tame for 190 hp. I can only assume they had to go into third
Also there's more weight to a corolla/celica
My car has the 2zz and gearbox and it'll hit 60 in second. 61 to be precise! They may have tested it to 100kph/62mph for the continental market which might explain it, probably need 3rd for that.
Speed is one thing, driveability and personal preference quite another. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is we should settle this with a run what ya bring on a trackday. Driving in a straight line is surprisingly hard!
Quote from: "JoeCool"My car has the 2zz and gearbox and it'll hit 60 in second. 61 to be precise!
Anyone use the 1zz with the 2zz box?
+1 for
maintenance
good tyres
brake pads
suspensions
and corolla short gearbox.
Quote from: "gdbd59"Quote from: "JoeCool"My car has the 2zz and gearbox and it'll hit 60 in second. 61 to be precise!
Anyone use the 1zz with the 2zz box?
They will fit, however the 2zz revs much much higher than a stock 1zz so it would be geared to suit.
[/quote]
Anyone use the 1zz with the 2zz box?[/quote]
They will fit, however the 2zz revs much much higher than a stock 1zz so it would be geared to suit.[/quote]
Meaning that the ratios are all-wrong.... so not an appropriate swap.
Has the MRS a closer-ratio box? Is that the relevance of racers using one? Or is it just the diff gearing?
Quote from: "gdbd59"
Anyone use the 1zz with the 2zz box?[/quote]
They will fit, however the 2zz revs much much higher than a stock 1zz so it would be geared to suit.[/quote]
Meaning that the ratios are all-wrong.... so not an appropriate swap.
Has the MRS a closer-ratio box? Is that the relevance of racers using one? Or is it just the diff gearing?[/quote]
The JDM cars have a close ratio box but some don't have the LSD as they don't come as standard
Below are all of the C series transmissions:
m https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission) m
Looks like they got a C65 box (C65-01A is open diff, C65-01B has LSD) whereas we got the C66 box - think the box you might be after is the C65-01B which has the close ratio but with the LSD
C65:
1st - 3.166
2nd - 1.904
3rd - 1.392
4th - 1.031
5th - 0.815
6th - 0.725
Rev - 0.3250
Final drive - 4.312
C66:
1st - 3.166
2nd - 1.904
3rd - 1.310
4th - 0.969
5th - 0.815
6th - 0.725
Rev - 3.250
Final drive - 3.941
Just running through the ratios via a calculator here are the theoretical top speeds per gear @ 7k RPM (first number is the C65 box)
1st gear - 36 vs 39
2nd gear - 60 vs 65
3rd gear - 82 vs 95
4th gear - 111 vs 129
5th gear - 140 vs 153
6th gear - 157 vs 172
Thanks Mitch. s:D :D s:D