Ultimate N/A 1ZZ

[kanujunkie]

hello Gas, long time no hear

[ChrisGB]

headgasket sealimg

Is that it?

Thinking about this, if one had a 1zz with oval bores drinking oil at an alarming rate, the 1.93L engine option gets pretty realistic.

Consider getting a short engine from Toyota (expensive) or an unknown origin used engine (may be a lower powered 1zz variant and miles covered, service history will be non existent). None of these are financially appealing.

So what about rebuilding the 1zz? £500 for sleeves and 11:1 compression pistons. Block machining and sleeve fitting possibly around £1 - 200. Custom made solid gasket could be £100. So if you do the spanner work on the rebuild, £800.

Now add in a set of Crower stage 1 cams at £230.

On the internals we have spent £1030. Know engine history and performance boost included.

To make half decent use of the mods, add in Zero (£380) or PPE (£325) exhaust manifold and free flow exhaust (from £230).

The individual gains for these bits may not be massive but... Assuming we have the exhaust manifold sorted anyway:

11:1 pistons (stock is 10:1) should eliminate any need to use an ECU tuning device for timing as the stock ECU is likely to be be controlling back from nominal on it's knock control.

Known 1.8 stocker with PPE manifold makes 157bhp. Known 1.8 setup with Crower stage 1 and PFC makes 167bhp. Suspect PPE / Crower stage 1 will also give 165 ish bhp.

Big bore kit enlarges capacity from 1794cc to 1932cc. Reckoned (with compression ratio increase) to give 10-15% gain. This takes us to a potential 184 - 192bhp.

So without ECU, and starting with a stock car, we spend £1640 (plus taxes and shipping). PFC at £430 if we find we need better fuelling and valve timing control puts us up around £2100. So this N/A tuning might not be as unproductive as it first seems, especially if you already have say manifold and exhaust or ECU, or if you have a dying engine.

How much is the stock TTET kit new?

Chris

[loadswine]

That's an interesting and cunning plan Chris, but I think the OP didn't want to be wielding spanners, but paying an outfit to do the necessary.This will increase the figures a bit probably.

[Anonymous]

hello Gas, long time no hear

Hi all,
Yeah long time no comments, but reading a lot (passive mode)  s:) s:)

[ChrisGB]

That's an interesting and cunning plan Chris, but I think the OP didn't want to be wielding spanners, but paying an outfit to do the necessary.This will increase the figures a bit probably.

I think that as the engine will be out whatever happens, the costs are going to be similar for spanner work.

Regards the OP plans:

The valve spring upgrade is not needed for the Stage 1 cams.

The Uprated rods are only needed if boost or nitrous is involved.

Same goes for ARP fasteners.

Dastek knew nothing about cam timing control or the way it worked when I spoke to them late last year considering Crower stage 1 cams.

3 angle modding of valve seats is potentially a risky strategy given the much narrower than conventional valve seat ring and may not yield much.

Inlet port matching may help a little but exhaust port stepping may be an even better bet.

Dastek seem to have omitted to tell the OP that the rev limit remains unchanged from stock with the Unichip. To make optimal use of the mods listed, I would expect PFC to be required or stock ECU if valve timing is not going to be critical (see my comment about high comp pistons above). My gut feeling is that with the big bore kit, the stock valve overlap reductions made in the midrange will need to be made less (giving a little more overlap) for optimum mid range tune. For the stage 2 cams, PFC is absolutely essential as Unichip offers no valve timing control [EDIT] or rev limit increase which is where the stage 2s work up in the mid 7000s.

OP has Che header which IMO may not support proposed mods well.

I think the ideas are a good starting point, but don't think he is dealing with a shop that knows enough TBH.

Chris

[Anonymous]

It's been a while - all the spending has made me feel quite sick!!

All good comments. Made me think + Rogue didn't get back to me about the work so a change of strategy. I would be happy to build the engine myself, problem is getting the thing back in the car. So unfortunatly I will have to return to Dastek.

I will be stripping my old engine to work out why it is screwed and if it turns out to be attributed to Dastek's tuning (valves met pistons), then I will be persuing them in the you-know-where...

So, after much delibration.....I've got a used 1ZZ (with all ancillarys) from a Celica GT delivered in a few days. Eaton M40 supercharger sitting in living room & a local fabricator / machine shop that owes me a whole wedge of work.

Now am stuck for choice here. With the rebuild, I am really not sure if I should a) go for forged pistons + rods OR b) Forged rods + Heanium coated piston crowns. The Heanium being there to keep heat off the piston crown and in the combustion chamber. And compression? 11:1 or stock...I really only want to run 5psi boost so might just manage this on 11:1 provided s/c is bypassed at mid range to keep detonation down and I get a huge intercooler in place.

Head is getting a normal set of stage 1's - as since I fitted CAMCON the power has jumped vastly (5bhp perhaps) that is on CHE's header (Blue Flame ex coming tomorrow) and CAT in place - so this is staying as I love the mid-range torque from the 4-2-1 setup.

Porting the head & matching to the manifolds will be done and I will know the benefit once I tear down the old head. I am willing to bet there are a few gains to be made on the head alone. Heanium coating here too.

So, the spending has started....just need to work out how I can do the engine work in my LIVING ROOM as I no longer have a garage!!

Fun fun fun!!

[ChrisGB]

So, after much delibration.....I've got a used 1ZZ (with all ancillarys) from a Celica GT delivered in a few days. Eaton M40 supercharger sitting in living room & a local fabricator / machine shop that owes me a whole wedge of work.

Now am stuck for choice here. With the rebuild, I am really not sure if I should a) go for forged pistons + rods OR b) Forged rods + Heanium coated piston crowns. The Heanium being there to keep heat off the piston crown and in the combustion chamber. And compression? 11:1 or stock...I really only want to run 5psi boost so might just manage this on 11:1 provided s/c is bypassed at mid range to keep detonation down and I get a huge intercooler in place.

How much power are you aiming for? If you are staying below maybe 250 - 260bhp, I would leave the internals alone unless the engine has big miles , rattles or oil consumption problems. With 5psi I think you are going to stay under 200bhp, so rebuilding will IMO be a waste of time and money. If you wanted to stretch the output on 5psi, you may consider water or water methanol injection. However you do a huge intercooler, you need to consider its effect on throttle response, a key reason to go supercharged.

High compression pistons will limit power with boost. You have no lag from a volumetric blower, so wont get that horrible mid 1980s big turbo and 8.5:1 feeling of having a piece of weak elastic for a throttle cable. Folks here are running twice that boost on stock pistons.

Head is getting a normal set of stage 1's - as since I fitted CAMCON the power has jumped vastly (5bhp perhaps) that is on CHE's header (Blue Flame ex coming tomorrow) and CAT in place - so this is staying as I love the mid-range torque from the 4-2-1 setup.

Porting the head & matching to the manifolds will be done and I will know the benefit once I tear down the old head. I am willing to bet there are a few gains to be made on the head alone. Heanium coating here too.

So, the spending has started....just need to work out how I can do the engine work in my LIVING ROOM as I no longer have a garage!!

Fun fun fun!!

Strikes me as you are putting a lot of work into an engine to make not much power. The supercharger will force enough air in to get decent power. Lots of head work will only gain you small benefits. You may consider Crower Stage 2 forced induction (FI) cams if you have the head off anyway. These will probably be more suited to boost than the stage 1 which is optimised for N/A.

Where did you source the CAMCON from? I am interested in one of these myself and would like to know more. in fact anything you can tell me about it.

Chris

[Anonymous]

New thread started on CAMCON....

I know it is a lot of work, but the engine is out....Once my Blue Flame ex goes on I am quite sure it will be running 170bhp. I will see in the next few weeks. I figure, 5psi boost gives calculated 227bhp based on this figure. Knock down a bit for losses and i am looking at 210bhp.

Considering your words though, perhaps it may be worth cutting down cost by just stripping the 2nd hand unit down, inspecting & honing bores, getting Heanium done on the piston crowns, UT & polished filled radii on the crank.

I am doing the head work myself (many many heads experience), just a basic clean up of casting edges, dress the seat + valve edges and manifold matching before Heanium coating. Also I am going to go through the entire inlet system and look for all possible improvements in the throttle body, inlet manifold etc etc.

My installation of the s/c is going to be 'blow-thru', with a re-circ valve over the s/c. So, there will not be such a significant loss of response with a large intercooler....

Seriously considering the F/I cams, i think these will even be nice for n/a use, being high lift and shorter duration than full stage 2, they will give lower rpm gains....hmmmm

[Anonymous]

Hi, I know I'm a newbie, but I know a fair bit on these V6's  s:) s:)  - so I'd like to offer my 2p worth.

If what you're after is a serious hike in performance, and driveability, then it really is the way to go.

£5k would get you a 3VZ, ported heads, nice downpipe with eliminated Y pipe restrictions. It's a recipe for around 220-230 ponies, with around the same figure in lb/ft of torque - available from 2000rpm onwayds.

At a later date, you can certainly add on an ECU (Link G3) and free up a few more ponies and improve throttle response etc.

The 3VZ can be treated as a very modular build indeed, I can supply bits and bobs for more oomph, but I won't go into detail as I don;t know the affiliates fees or view point yet.

But if anyone has any questions about a V6 approach I'll be happy to answer what I can  s:) s:)

[Anonymous]

An update....

It's been a while and lots of this build is done. Block is back from machining & the bottom end is assembled. The bottom end now has Crower rods, Wiseco pistons, Darton sleeves.

http://www.box.net/shared/kwttonkgs8

Currently thoughts are what ECU to run. I am using CAMCON with Unichip at the moment but unless Dastek can raise the rev limit to 7800rpm I am going to have to switch over to another unit.

The head is almost finished. At it turns out, the inlets are pretty good and all the work was right below the seat, the guide itself & on the seat + valve (3-angle).

Exhaust ports on the standard head are woeful. A really badly profilled short-side-radius in the port is fixed, some huge casting edges & seat finishing edges are blended in as well. 3-angle seats done in the exhausts as well.

Shrouding in the chambers was also significantly improved.

Pics soon!!

[Ilogik]

For an ecu did you speak to Rogue about the Link G4, has plenty of toys on it. How much did your build cost in all via Rogue?

[Anonymous]

I'd like to address a couple of the concerns mentioned here.

First, oil consumption. I see a couple of people "have heard" about oil consumption problems but that is pretty common on message boards. I'd be very interested to hear directly from anyone who has had this problem first hand. The fact is that the cylinders are surrounded by coolant passages, which then have the oil passages around them. For a head gasket on a 1ZZ engine to cause oil consumption problems that oil would have to find a very creative way of passing directly through coolant on its way to the combustion chambers. I can't personally imagine how this is possible. We do use a modified 2ZZ gasket becuase that is the best solution to the problem. The stock Toyota gaskets are unbelievably strong. DO NOT mess with copper gaskets. They are horrible and will seep and/or fail every time. The big bore 1zz is functionally similar to a 2ZZ once you do the big bore conversion. Any engine with forged pistons will consume a very small amount of oil, usually not even detectable. Any oil consumption beyond that level is an indication of a problem. Incorrect ring gap, improper piston to wall clearance, poor hone job, no torque plate used when boring, even bad breather setup. With a turbo many people end up pressurizing their crankcase (incorrect breather setup) which causes massive oil consumption. My point is that the consumption can not be blamed on the head gasket because is is not possible from oil to get from an oil passage to a combustion chamber without passing through coolant which would be a very obvious and different problem.

Second, performance. The 1ZZ is not the highest powered engine on Earth but it can do very well with a good build. I've started a new thread with results from a recent build we did. BTW, this engine does not consume a detectable amount of oil even revving to 8000 rpm.

 l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24023 l

[Kool PT]

what are the most straightforward things to consider in a 'built' 1zz engine then? mine feels like it's getting near to the end of its life. I am probably going to turn it into a track/sunny day car and the thought of a 2zz or v6 makes my wallet hurt. if I were to get my hands on a newer 1zz engine, where would I start? the info on this thread is really interesting but I would not be looking for 'ultimate' performance, maybe just halfway towards 2zz power?

cams seem to be the obvious one, what about the 1.93l bore? is it typically expensive and is it a standalone mod or does other stuff need to be done.

i guess what i'm asking for is, what in order of general price/simplicity/reliability would be the first mods to consider for the biggest gains?

[markiii]

think about what you need to het to 190bhp

now cost it

trust me 2zz swap is cheaper, especially as Aaron has one for sale and a swap kit for £1100

[muffdan]

A built 1zz is cheaper in parts but much more expensive in labour, especially if you go big bore and/or sleeves.

There's no cheap route to 200 bhp unfortunately. You're looking at a stock 1zz with a second hand turbo as probably the cheapest way. If your 1zz is coming to the end of its life though then the price of a 2zz + swap will be more competitive, especially so if Aaron is offering a 2zz + swap kit for £1100!

[Kool PT]

what, both for £1100?!

actually what i said in my earlier post was no crazy gains but some basic mods with noticable power which are easiest to do with an engine that's not currently fitted to the car! like 165-170bhp

[aaronjb]

Yes both for £1100 - the 2ZZ itself needs a rebuild though (at a minimum it's going to need new valves, one of them is banana shaped).. The £1100 includes a set of MWR valves.  (The fitting kit alone is worth that much, so the engine is basically free even if it turns out to be a useless turd)

[muffdan]

It's the labour that is expensive. Rebuilding an engine takes time and unless you're willing to do it yourself a mechanic is going to charge you big bucks to do it for you. You'll also want a mechanic that know's what he's doing.

On top of that, you'll need a custom ECU and mapping, all of which isn't cheap, to take advantage of the new internals.

[Anonymous]

what are the most straightforward things to consider in a 'built' 1zz engine then? mine feels like it's getting near to the end of its life. I am probably going to turn it into a track/sunny day car and the thought of a 2zz or v6 makes my wallet hurt. if I were to get my hands on a newer 1zz engine, where would I start? the info on this thread is really interesting but I would not be looking for 'ultimate' performance, maybe just halfway towards 2zz power?

cams seem to be the obvious one, what about the 1.93l bore? is it typically expensive and is it a standalone mod or does other stuff need to be done.

i guess what i'm asking for is, what in order of general price/simplicity/reliability would be the first mods to consider for the biggest gains?

I would say that building up a balls-to-the-wall 1.93L 1zz is more complicated & more involved than going for a swap. It is not easy to find someone near you who can do the machining of the block with confidence that the sleeves will stay in place; you then need the utmost faith that they match each bore to a piston for perfect clearances to minimise piston slap. The head work will cost ££££ if you don't do it yourself, and doing it yourself opens the risk of wasting the head and the need for some tools that cost ££.

I would say that lowest-cost option may be, assuming your are opening the engine and intend to stay n/a, is: bore out +020 or something, get MWR to do you matching wiseco 11.5:1 (or higher if you dare) pistons, forged rods, basic port of head, stage 2 cams, uprated springs, Ti retainers, ppe or zero header & race cat. Unichip can handle all this but cannot control idle so you will have a dodgy idle, better go for pfc. Still a decent amount of £££££ but a sensible level and it will rev high enough to go well above max torque.

I don't think this will be much cheaper than swapping the whole engne though....I really only went down the 1.93L route out of interest to see what it can do.

Given a chance It would be interesting to lob in a 3.6L porsche engine + drivetrain..... or the whole suburu STi engine & drivetrain. So, how deep are your pockets? huh?

[Kool PT]

Yes both for £1100 - the 2ZZ itself needs a rebuild though (at a minimum it's going to need new valves, one of them is banana shaped).. The £1100 includes a set of MWR valves.  (The fitting kit alone is worth that much, so the engine is basically free even if it turns out to be a useless turd)

thanks for clearing that up, was gonna get a loan or something and take that off your hands pronto, it's enough of a hassle that I'll be able to sleep at night without worrying about the deal that got away!

[aaronjb]

It's still a pretty good deal when you consider a good 2ZZ is going to set you back ~£1000, and a fitting kit ~£1400 or so.

[markiii]

indeed its worth that just for the fitting kit

[Kool PT]

yeah not putting the deal down, it's a good price for sure but too much for me at the mo. if the engine had been fully working i probably would have forked out there and then. if you don't have a buyer in a few months i'll maybe be back in touch, I'm just going to keep topping up the oil in the meantime. I really need to get a 2nd car that is reliable and won't need constant attention before I can start really messing about with engine swaps and that. lets get this thread back on topic in the meantime though!