jl or alpine component speakers

[stargazer30]

Been upgrading my amp and speakers today.  I ran the wiring through the doors, what a pita! lol

If you want to see some pics of the door with the flashing tape on check out my old posts, I posted up plenty.  For mine I did behind the speaker and covered the  metal door skin that's behind the plastic door card.   I found the more of an enclosure you can create, the better it will sound.

[wotugonado]

Next (& hopefully last)questions, can any of you audio geniuses help ?

 m http://images.owneriq.net/download/imag ... 000001.png m

Thats a link to my amp manual, i could do with some help to decipher it please.
So what i want is to make it a 2 channel set up Front left and front right, it's got 2 separate amps in it, so ive set the switch to the A setting so both amps amplify the
single input (My headunit) this is where im now stuck.....

Do i put my speaker cables into the A only amplifier output or put one speaker cable in the A amplifier and the other speaker cable into the B amplifier ?

Can i bridge them in stereo or only mono ?

Im confused !!!!!!!!!!

[JoeCool]

HI mate.

You're looking to do the bottom of the "2 channel" System diagrams. That Bridges the amp in to 2 channels from 4.

You input the Left speaker Coaxial input from headunit into "Channel A - Left"
You input the RIght Speaker Coaxial input from headunit into "Channel B - Left"

Then on channel A output you wire up your left speaker cable as shown, into the crossover and then on to Tweeter and Woofer as normal.
Channel B, same thing with right speaker as shown.

Get the switches right!

That should give you 80W x2 channels. IT comes at the expense of the amp running a bit hotter and marginally worse sound quality, but unlikely to be noticeable.

If you really want to Keep it simple, or leave 2 channels free for a sub later, you can follow the upper 2 channel system diagram and just use Channel A left and right, for 30W a channel. But it's ver simple to reconfigure the system later, just swap the inputs and outputs about.

[wotugonado]

You superstar!!! Thanks.
Its Fried my brain trying to work that out  s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:

[shnazzle]

Out of curiosity, if you were to want to add two rear speakers would that just be a 4-channel setup? And how would that work if you also had a subwoofer? And even more...how would that work if you had a subwoofer with integrated amp?

Would you need a 5 channel amp?

[JoeCool]

Out of curiosity, if you were to want to add two rear speakers would that just be a 4-channel setup? And how would that work if you also had a subwoofer? And even more...how would that work if you had a subwoofer with integrated amp?

Would you need a 5 channel amp?

Thats why 4 channel amps are great. They're really versatile.

So if you wanted 4 sets of speakers, you'd just use all channels separate at 30w a channel.

Or you can run front left and right speakers on the channel A stereo pair, and then Bridge channel B Into a mono channel to power a sub woofer. Thats a 3 channel set up.

They almost always have a signal pass through, so you could feed a signal on to a separate sub amp for 4 speakers plus sub woofer. Or else the head unit can have a separate set of coaxial outputs for sub on its own. That way you can control sub woofer crossover point and volume from the head unit, which can be very useful.

There are some good 5 channel amps around. They're awesome because they have a powerful sub channel, and also because you can use them to do a 2 way active front end using digital processing in the head unit plus a sub woofer.....

It's complicated....

[wotugonado]

It's complicated....

Yes it is, my head still aches from yesterdays failed attempt to decipher the manual  s:) s:)  

But thanks to all the help from everyone on this thread, its up an running.
havent really tested it yet, but even at low volume the sound quality is night and day.
Well pleased with  the jl speakers, put on a bit of old skool d&b and they sounded quality.
Hoping for good weather tomorrow for a run out and full test of the system.

[JoeCool]

Here's a system diagram showing a simple 2 way front end and a sub driven off of a 4 channel amp, to simplify things:





This was the 'Amp Rack' in my BMW:



That's a DLS Ultimate A5 3 Channel amp and a DLS A3 Dual Mono. - So 5 channels of Amplification. It ran an 'active' front end, that is the Head unit itself did all the processing and signal splitting digitally and sent a signal to each of the speakers directly, so no external 'passive' crossovers at all.

Here's the system diagram:


IT ended up with each Tweeter getting 80W, Each mid bass driver getting about 150W, and the sub getting 500W.

It was fairly stealthy:


And it absolutely rocked.  I spent a lot of time getting the speakers in the kick panels properly sealed off to support the mid-bass. I do still miss that system, it was particularly brutal with Electro and Hip Hop. The digital crossovers and time alignment and all adjustments made from the head unit made for a tweakers heaven and a perfectionists hell. So much to play with. I've sold that head unit now in favour of a KISS ethos!!

[shnazzle]

JoeCool... You and I need to talk... You clearly know how all this works. I'm impressed. And now I'm no longer happy with my perfectly adequate sound system.
Thank you... And a sarcastic thank you as well.

Wotugonado, did the adding of the amp really make such a massive difference?

[JoeCool]

JoeCool... You and I need to talk... You clearly know how all this works. I'm impressed. And now I'm no longer happy with my perfectly adequate sound system.
Thank you... And a sarcastic thank you as well.

Honestly, having been there, I can honestly say It ISN'T worth the money, time or effort!! Especially not in light weight sports cars. If you amp up some front compoentens and slap a bit of sound deadening in the doors, you've got 90% of the performance for 10% of the effort.

Everything beyond that is just painful effort, hard work, dimishing returns... etc etc. I've been down to the heater matrix in all but my most recent car in the name of Audio. Not worth it!

If you want a fun car with a decent stereo, do the easy wins.

If you want the best psosible stereo in a car, sell the MR2 and buy a Lexus or Merc S class or Hyundai Coupe (Bizarrely good acoustics for some reason).

I've tried al lthe options, and I can honestly say I was most pleased by the bang for buck of a simple 2 way front end + sub in a Nissan 200SX. The BMW beat it into a  scock cock scock ed hat in terms of sound quality but it honestly took about a year to install and set up properly. And the MK1 MR2 I just never got to sound right, and regretted hacking about a mint 1 owner car to try it.

[shnazzle]

Oy nobody asked for your opinion haha!
You're biased because you've had that super-amped-Heineken-Music-Halls BMW.

I kid.

So what I'm wondering is, my head unit (Sony BT90 double din or something) has 6 RCA outs; 2 woofer, and left and right for front and rear.
What would I gain by adding an external amp and two better 16.5cm units+tweeters+crossover over just replacing the existing 16.5cm units and tweeters?

[JoeCool]

So what I'm wondering is, my head unit (Sony BT90 double din or something) has 6 RCA outs; 2 woofer, and left and right for front and rear.
What would I gain by adding an external amp and two better 16.5cm units+tweeters+crossover over just replacing the existing 16.5cm units and tweeters?

Mainly it's about control. 6.5" speakers are quite big and have a bit of mass to shift, and frankly the amplifier inside a head unit doesn't cut it. IT needs to swing currents and voltages about to retain control of the moving mass of the speaker cone. Plus they tend to 'clip' the signal at relatively low volume, which is when the music sounds distorted.

An external amp just gives you the reserves of power you need to retain proper control of the speaker. it will go louder, but that's a byproduct of the better control of the speaker system.

The other factor is that most component systems are intended to be amplified, so they're designed around an actual 30-50W of power, not the 10-12W a head unit provides. They're not sensitive enough to use head unit power effectively. so they can be disappointing if you spend £80 on speakers and don't amp them, and spending £200 or more is utterly pointless if you're not amping them.

It's complicated....

Yes it is, my head still aches from yesterdays failed attempt to decipher the manual  s:) s:)  

But thanks to all the help from everyone on this thread, its up an running.
havent really tested it yet, but even at low volume the sound quality is night and day.
Well pleased with  the jl speakers, put on a bit of old skool d&b and they sounded quality.
Hoping for good weather tomorrow for a run out and full test of the system.

Do you know how to set your gains up properly? That will help you get the maximum out of your amplifier. Also remember Gain is NOT volume!

1) Set all the head unit EQ settings off - so 'Flat' and none of that 'pop' or 'rock' settings. Treble and Bass set to 0 as well.
2) Same if the amp has any kind of bass boost function, just switch it off.
3) Set the amp gains on both channel A and Channel B to low.
4) Now turn up your head unit volume until you hear it distort. This might be quite quiet because the gains are low, but you'll hear the speakers go flappy /crackly and lose control. Turn the volume down a few notches until it's clean again. This is now your head units maximum clean signal, and the max useable volume on your headunit.
5) At that volume, now turn up the gains gradually on the Amp channels. Keep the L/R balance as best you can as you now have one gain per channel.
6) At some point, you will again hear the music begin to break up/go crackly or wooly. You have again hit 'clipping' only now it's your amp clipping the signal not the head unit's output stage. THis could be REALLY LOUD depending.
7) Wind your amp gains back a smidge.
 s8) s8)  make any tone tweaks you want to to adjust the music to your taste, but keep it sensible, just a couple of notches either way for any setting. Properly set up, your JL's should offer a good and realistic reproduciton of the music.


That's a rough and ready way to set your gains. So long as you don't go over your max permissable head unit volume, you're getting the most out of your amps without risking damage. CLipping is what kills speakers. All those horrible flappy sounding subs you hear are clipping to hell because they're badly set up.

[wotugonado]

Snazzle , what he said ^^^^ as if I have a clue about any of this audio lark rofl  s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:  but thanks for asking  s:) s:)  
the only thing I can add from my basic laymans pov is look at the size of standalone amps then ask how they claim to pack the equivalent power output into your headunit thats a 3rd of the size, I dont think so. Bigger must be better, right ?   s:) s:)  
Its a slippery slope though I only wanted some upgraded speakers now ive got a bloody great amp in there too.

Mr Cool more top tips thanks,i will do that tomorrow. All I did was turn down the bass, treble and  volume put all the gains to minimum turned up the volume on the headunit to about 6 then just notched the gains until the sound was about where i expect it to be for that volume level. Not very scientific, guess work i think you could call it  s:D s:D

[stargazer30]

The other factor is that most component systems are intended to be amplified, so they're designed around an actual 30-50W of power, not the 10-12W a head unit provides. They're not sensitive enough to use head unit power effectively. so they can be disappointing if you spend £80 on speakers and don't amp them, and spending £200 or more is utterly pointless if you're not amping them..

Very true and I've seen folks on here fall into that trap including myself many years ago.  My first attempt was a pair of £120 focals without sound deadening running of the HUs internal amp and they sounded dreadful lol!

As a reference to setting up the amps here are my settings.  MR2s seems to have some very strange dead spots and cabinet gains that generally screw up the sound.  My amp is 70W RMS a channel fronts or about 120w bridged/sub channel

Amp Setup
Front Channel;
HPF on the amp is set to roll off anything below 80hz
Gain about 10 o'clock on the amp

Rear channel - Sub bridged;
LPF (Sub x-over) is at 100 to 120hz ish, so some overlap between the fronts and sub.
Gain is at 12 o'clock, so slightly more gain on sub vs fronts

Head Units EQ setup
This bit I found makes a big difference and I am lucky that my JVC HU lets you set the frequency as well as the gain/cut.  The two critical ones in the MR2 seem to be cutting 2.5khz and adding gain to 200hz mid bass.
Bass  200hz + 3db
Mid  2.5khz  - 1db or even - 2db
Treble 12.5khz + 1db

Component Crossovers  in the doors have the tweeters set at reference level (no gain or cut).  I am only using the HUs EQ.


Rear channel

[wotugonado]

Well ive set it up following the above advice and wow, its crystal up until about 43 out of the the maximum 50 setting on the headunit volume. I wont ever need it that loud! Its fantastic. Katy b's voice and foo fighters -all my life gave me actual goosebumps when listening to it. Great advice on which speakers and how to set it all up, much appreciated lads   s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:

[JoeCool]

Glad you got results. Easy when you know how! Enjoy.

[s12vea]

Glad you got it sorted mate. Really need to get mine sorted. I have the stuff just need the time.

[wotugonado]

Glad you got results. Easy when you know how! Enjoy.

Ha yep easy when you can pick someone elses brain.

Glad you got it sorted mate. Really need to get mine sorted. I have the stuff just need the time.

You know you need it in your life   s:) s:)  chuck a sickie in the week and fit it   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[s12vea]

I just might have to hahaha

[shnazzle]

I'm jealous now haha. I'm going to be after an amp and some nicer door speakers soon.
I'm never going to have to cash together to get my wheels done and respray the front bumper at this rate

[wotugonado]

Its this forum, you see it you want it. Ive got a full body kit waiting to be painted for the last 12 months plus cuz I keep spending the money on other things. Stargazer selling some amps got one for about £30 be a good starting point for you.