Ok ive been pondering which way to go with suspension on this car and im very fussy which doesn't help!, i like to try and make as good an allrounder as I can capable of handling some track use but still compliant enough for the terrible state of uk roads, ive tried lots of setups on previous cars and spent way to much money in many cases! anyhows I often find a set of Koni Sport Adjustable dampers are the best compromise coupled with stock or mild lowering/uprated spring kit works best and is sensible cost, after much reading on all options available for the roadster I was down to either KW V3 or Koni Sport adjustables again.
As much as I wanted the KW kit I just couldn't bring myself to spend nearly as much as I paid for car on the kit at this point, it is an option for future I would like to explore but as the point of buying this roadster was to have cheap fun I managed to stop myself buying the KW kit!, that just leaves the Koni setup and on these cars its the cut-a-strut system which for thos not familiar with it involves using your stock damper casing as donor which you cut open to remove stock internals then install Koni inserts, bit daunting if your not good with tools but not tooo tricky if you are, below is video they show how it works
https://youtu.be/PXSnNZt3NiI
I usually buy all my Koni parts from Larkspeed.com at great prices with quick shipping and would really recommend them if wanting to go this route, unfortunately for me on this occasion they were struggling to get stock until March as Koni were totally out!, I was going to wait but also wanted to get cracking so I set about looking for stock elsewhere and after a tip from member on here I found some in USA but shipping costs/taxes pushed them up a little more than I would like, next was scouring Ebay and several german sellers claimed to have stock ready to ship, after a message to double check that then at a good price and 2 days later I had a set in my hand :)
This weekend I set about the conversion pictures as below, I will get them onto car later this week hopefully and will be using my existing Tein springs for now.
First a pic of all parts ready to start to check they are correct..
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konibefore.jpg)
Next is 1st strut drained and cut open alongside an uncut unit, I didn't cut enough off in this picture as was being cautious and had to take another 5mm or so off, better to do it this way if unsure as if you cut too much off strut is scrap and would need to get another strut to be able to continue....
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konicut.jpg)
All finished ready to go on car :D
(http://carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konifinished.jpg)
I will update and report back on ride and handling once they are fitted onto car.
Nice work. I can imagine this is going to be a very good setup so look forward to hearing what you think of them.
I've never seen it done before. I had no idea that you basically use the stock shafts and slide the Konis in.
How does it sit at the bottom? Does it have a ledge at the bottom to sit on?
Never mind. I've watched the video. Very interested!
Its a good way of being able to supply more models without having to tool up/source the damper bodies, on some cars like fronts on my Celica GT4RC the stock damper actually has a removable insert by unscrewing the cap on top which makes it even easier, but most using this conversion need a use cut-a-strut though and which while not massive job is above those with only basic tools and knowledge, biggest downside other than that is the price as inserts now cost about as much as complete damper units Koni supply for some other cars which puts some people off, they used to be alot cheaper but as i know how the Koni dampers work so well for my kind of usage its not an issue for me but i know some would be put off by cost and work involved.
Ian
For anybody else scanning these threads for feeedback/ideas on compliant, adjustable, track/fast road suspensions, this might be worth consideration: IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO WAIT: I thought that MeisterR did a special order 4kg/6kg spring rate set of their Zeta CRD+ coilovers... given that their 5kg/7kg set are rated similar in terms of comfort to other manufacturer's 4kg/6kg, I'm guessing they might have given you a more well known and more out-the box solution (albeit for ~£700 and several months of wondering if they have stock) - the latter being the main reason why I went with the BC Racing coilovers (with road-friendly 4kg/6kg springs and the NON-pillowball rear topmounts) - you just need to be prepared to wait: I was chasing MeisterR for (the standard 5kg/7kg) stock details last April and they were umm'ing and ah'ing about if they could deliver for mid-July and others who ordered at the same time didn't get theirs until August... I gave up asking in late June and had the BC Racing delivered in 2 days, installed a week later and two months of summer driving under my belt before the MeisterR's would have arrived...
Hard to recommend given the delayed delivery times, but might be worth the wait as their 5kg/7kg's seem to come very highly recommended, so a more compliant set would probably be even better on a daily.
I dont want this thread into a coilover vs stock type damper comparison minefield, its about my Koni install first and foremost and as there is so little info on here about it i wanted to do a thread on it for looking at options :)
Just for info i specifically avoided BC & Meister R as well as other cheap far east made kits for many reasons, mainly poor damping control and spring rates which are often way to high for road/daily use, all depends what your used to though but for me and my roads/usage they are not suitable in off the shelf versions at least, sure many people do daily them and have no issues but that doesnt mean there is not a much more suitable solution out there they just havent tried it, also if you do enough digging many that say they are fine for road also say they are a touch on firm side, which for my aging body is no good :D
If im as happy as im hoping to be with the Koni's then the next step is to convert the damper body with a threaded sleeve to accept a stock coilover 2.25" or 2.5" spring which many have done in usa, this then allows me to pick any spring rate i want and retain the Koni damping which to me is much more road suitable, mainly down to the bump/compression damping compared to most cheaper coilover kits which are harsh in comparison, also the Koni damper can handle a much firmer spring than the stock ones and double the rate is well within limits with many having run a lot more on track cars, but thats not for me in this car but i think double the stock spring rate could work well and still be ok on road, for now though Tein-S springs will be used with shorter bumpstops.
Suspension is a subjective thing and what works for one doesnt often for another, but i know what i like and what i dont like and on my last BMW 130i daily driver/backup track car i tested 7 different suspension setups to try and find the best allrounder, everything from stock to Bilsteins, KW & Ohlins but the Koni is hard to beat for the price as an allrounder and thats what is on this one as well as my last one :)
Ian
Am I right in thinking that there is some user adjustment of the damping with these koni inserts?
Yes these have rebound damping adjustment :)
I agree with what you said above with regards to not having a BC/MeisterR vs Koni discussion.
I think you have chosen a very good solution with some of the world's best dampers and a wide selection of springs.
Stock ride is very compliant but performant, and I thibk your setup is a perfect mix.
My BCs are coming up to over 25k or so, so something like this (as I'm aging ;)) is very interesting as a next option. Especially for the price.
Well your welcome to a ride in it when ive got them on to see how it compares :D
Fingers crossed will get them onto car tonight.
Quote from: thetyrant on February 11, 2019, 13:45
Well your welcome to a ride in it when ive got them on to see how it compares :D
Fingers crossed will get them onto car tonight.
Excellent. Much appreciated.
Best be at Ding Day :)
I have the same setup with Tein-S springs and Koni inserts and they work very well together. I looked as MeisterR, but since I already had the springs, tried the Koni. I drove another MR2 with a very well setup coilover with custom springs(4/5k) and modified damping, and the difference wasn't much. If anything the Tein / Koni setup had a better ride with similar control and handling
Quote from: shnazzle on February 11, 2019, 13:47
Quote from: thetyrant on February 11, 2019, 13:45
Well your welcome to a ride in it when ive got them on to see how it compares :D
Fingers crossed will get them onto car tonight.
Excellent. Much appreciated.
Best be at Ding Day :)
Doubt I will make that but your not far from me so sure we can meet up sometimes, I was over your way for a run out couple of weeks ago :D
A fine choice! Cool. When the weather gets a bit more suitable and I'm not as hectic I'll drop you a line
Got them fitted onto car last night but haven't driven it yet, will take it to work today the long way round :D
Small update, havent had a huge amount of miles on them yet maybe 30 or so and mostly just pottering to work and back but so far they feel very good from a comfort point of view, very slightly firmer than the well worn stock dampers i removed but not harsh at all, car body feels much better controlled and seems to of sorted the mushy feel i had from rear of car under certain direction changes over bumps but ive not had chance to push the car very hard yet, if weather is good i will get it out this weekend for some more miles and get a better feel for how they perform overall. Im tempted to head down for half day at Cadwell but dont think i can face the trip again so soon as was only there a few weeks ago and its 3hours+ each way!
Also need to double check my alignment and have some camber bolts coming for front to help with tyre shoulder wear on track.
Ian
Took the opportunity last night to get out for a blast through the lakes on quiet twisty roads, very impressed with how the car handles and rides now :)
Currently i have dampers set just above full soft on (+90degree out of a possible 720degrees of adjustment) and i think i can probably go touch firmer to +180 on these springs if roads are not too bad but anymore will make it over damped for spring rates i would guess, will experiment on that though.
To me good suspension is when you get to end of a ride out and havent really noticed it!, despite going out last night to specifically to test the suspension i had to keep reminding myself of this as car just lapped it up and i was having too much fun!, car has lost its nervousness at high speeds when hitting slight ridges/bumps which i had before and could be unnerving to say the least! also the overall body control is much improved with no real impact on comfort when pottering along, in fact i would say in most cases its more comfortable than the old stock dampers as its just damping the bumps better now, but the stock stuff is of course well used so not a totally fair comparison.
Sure the Tein springs are still a bit soft when really pushing things and on track will be more evident again, but as i prefer a more compliant car rather than one stiff as a board that struggles when it gets bumpy, a stiff car is not always the fastest car either as many wrongly think :) this car is now perfect for road/ fast road use on this setup with a compliant yet sporty/controlled ride and able to handle bumpy roads much better, interested to see how it is on track as ive done 2 trackdays so far in the car 1 on totally stock suspension and the last on the Tein springs/stock dampers, there was a good improvements just changing the springs mainly from car being lower i think but now with Koni dampers as well im sure it will feel much better again, its never going to best track setup with soft springs like this but it should be nice and balanced and being able to tweak damping a little will be nice, a good allround package im sure and will report more once ive tried it on track and more road miles.
So far win win :D
Jealous :(
Sounds like a perfect mix of UK road compliance with a sturdier and more capable ride.
Sounds good Ian. It's a nice feeling when you lose that high speed nervousness. I felt that in the 200sx when I changed over to coilovers. The difference was night and day
Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Quote from: shnazzle on February 14, 2019, 10:20
Jealous :(
Sounds like a perfect mix of UK road compliance with a sturdier and more capable ride.
So far so good and will get some more miles on asap :)
We have the same Koni / Tein setup on our 2002 MR2 and came to the same conclusions. What I found is the rebound adjustment is pretty sensitive and even 1/8 turn (45 deg) made a noticeable difference. After many - many experiments with settings, we ended up at 3/4 turn (270 deg) from full soft front and rear. A little less gave a slightly netter ride, and a bit more felt better, but the suspension would slightly "pack down" (not return fast enough) over a series of small bumps.
With those settings, it is surprising how quickly you can push on less than perfect roads with little drama. We have a 2003 with stock suspension and the ride with Koni / Tein is actually slightly better except on really rough roads where suspension travel comes into play. Even then, the Konis keep the tires on the ground when the stock suspension would move around more.
We started with Tein and KYB which worked well, but seemed to have a bit too much compression damping and too little rebound, particularly in the front, which lead to a "porpoise" in some conditions. That is gone with the Koni. Overall, a nice package
I used a set of used HSD coilovers with koni shocks to build my own koni coilovers. It's allows me to run what ever rat spring I want. It also gives me full ride height adjustment and front camber plates. The tender springs definitely improves the ride.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L69MgMgG/download.jpg)
Quote from: silversprint on February 20, 2019, 09:57
I used a set of used HSD coilovers with koni shocks to build my own koni coilovers. It's allows me to run what ever rat spring I want. It also gives me full ride height adjustment and front camber plates. The tender springs definitely improves the ride.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L69MgMgG/download.jpg)
Nice job same sort of thing im thinking off in future, if i find some bust up cheap coilovers to use like you did that would be great, but if not i can weld on threaded sleeves to my stock struts.
What spring rates have you been using on these ?
Ive just added whiteline camber bolts to front of mine and its given me plenty of camber adjustment and more than i expected, i set them on full negative on install as in past on other cars ive found that only gave me -1.5deg but on this car they are giving my -2.5deg! ideal for track but a touch too much for road i think so will dial them back a touch to around -2deg.
Ian
This particular set had 4kg 6kg springs.
Quote from: silversprint on February 20, 2019, 18:39
This particular set had 4kg 6kg springs.
Nice one thanks for info and is that on stock koni valving ? if so good to know they can handle such a spring rate increase over stock and lowering springs.
Looking at data on SC the stock springs are approx 1.3kg front & 2.1kg rear and Tein S-spec @ 1.9kg front & 2.9kg rear for others reference.
Quote from: thetyrant on February 21, 2019, 07:45
Quote from: silversprint on February 20, 2019, 18:39
This particular set had 4kg 6kg springs.
Nice one thanks for info and is that on stock koni valving ? if so good to know they can handle such a spring rate increase over stock and lowering springs.
Looking at data on SC the stock springs are approx 1.3kg front & 2.1kg rear and Tein S-spec @ 1.9kg front & 2.9kg rear for others reference.
SC ? Link please.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on February 21, 2019, 11:53
Quote from: thetyrant on February 21, 2019, 07:45
Quote from: silversprint on February 20, 2019, 18:39
This particular set had 4kg 6kg springs.
Nice one thanks for info and is that on stock koni valving ? if so good to know they can handle such a spring rate increase over stock and lowering springs.
Looking at data on SC the stock springs are approx 1.3kg front & 2.1kg rear and Tein S-spec @ 1.9kg front & 2.9kg rear for others reference.
SC ? Link please.
Sure here you go a - https://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?104465-Spring-Rates-Table-for-Lowering-Springs
Quick update on the Koni/Tein setup after a busy weekend, i was down at Cadwell park for first round of the Javelin Japanese sprint series and it was first chance ive had to try the Koni on circuit, its a 3hour/180mile drive down from cumbria to Cadwell so i left the dampers in comfort mode ive been using (+90deg from full soft) which gives a very nice ride on the road, its a touch too soft if your pressing on mind and can get a little bouncy so i usually turn to +180deg if im going for a hoon which give firmer but still compliant ride and better body control.
On track i turned them to +360 so 1 full turn from full soft, only had 6 laps all day due to stoppages and weather etc but the car felt superb considering the soft Tein springs, very balanced and easy to feel exactly what the car is doing straight out the box which is what you need on a sprint, also left them on that setting for a 50mile trip during lunch break to pick up some parts for my old GT4, bit harsh for me on road at that setting initally but by time i got back to circuit i was kind of used to it and the way you can chuck it around is great, i think +180 is a better fast road setting though.
All in all very happy and while i want to build up the adjustable damper body so i can play with spring rates im in no rush to do so as car feels good as is, im tempted to play with uprated Anti Roll bars next to see how that changes things, again im in no rush though car is very good now :D
Im keen to get a trackday in on them if i can before next sprint in May to further play with adjustment, its hard to do this on a limited 1 lap sprint so i didnt tinker further but on a trackday it would be good to play more, i dont think i would want much firmer as it will be overdamped for the springs but be good to play.
Ian
We have been running the same setup for a while now, and came to the same conclusions. 1/2 turn (180 deg) gave a really nice ride, but we ended at 3/4 (270 deg) on the street. The lighter damping let to a slightly move active suspension on rougher roads. One full turn was a bit better when pushed hard, but the ride suffered. After lots of tweaking we ended at the 3/4 setting as a good compromise on the street.
I nearly went this way but went MeisterR in the end. I sometimes now feel that I should have gone with the Konis. Love to see a pic of the install, I can't quite get my head round how the adjusters stick through the rear mounts.
For mainly road use this koni setup is a million times better than any coilovers setup in terms of ride quality, especially the lower budget in the range like Meister and BC etc, the Koni has much more road suitable damping and spring rates even with the firmer tein springs i have.
It's also pretty stealthy as the adjusters don't stay fitted, basically you remove damper cover and place adjuster on then adjust and remove it back into glovebox, refit caps over damper tops and away you go.
I guess you could leave them fitted with some silicone or something to hold them in place but I prefer the stealth look, ive cut 2 holes in frunk cover with a hole saw which allows it to be refitted and still access adjusters, I will get a couple of pics for you.
:)
Quote from: thetyrant on April 10, 2019, 22:28
For mainly road use this koni setup is a million times better than any coilovers setup in terms of ride quality, especially the lower budget in the range like Meister and BC etc, the Koni has much more road suitable damping and spring rates even with the firmer tein springs i have.
I am going to have to get a go on these.
Having had Meister R on 2 different 2s I find it hard to believe that they can be that comfortable and offer a serious improvement.
Obviously as always they will be superior to stock suspension that's done some miles.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 11, 2019, 15:34
Quote from: thetyrant on April 10, 2019, 22:28
For mainly road use this koni setup is a million times better than any coilovers setup in terms of ride quality, especially the lower budget in the range like Meister and BC etc, the Koni has much more road suitable damping and spring rates even with the firmer tein springs i have.
I am going to have to get a go on these.
Having had Meister R on 2 different 2s I find it hard to believe that they can be that comfortable and offer a serious improvement.
Obviously as always they will be superior to stock suspension that's done some miles.
I'm keen as well. Look forward to your review
Anyone up in the north is welcome for a ride in my car anytime to experience the Koni/Tein combo, point to note for those that are thinking of this is you must shorten the Bumpstops if fitting Tein spring kit unless you want a bouncy ride, the old Tein instructions used to show this but for some reason they dont now, if you dont cut it the car will be very firm especially at the front as your basically sat on the bumpstop all the time, it should come into play and assist the coilspring on bigger bumps but you dont want it touching all the time, maybe if track only it might be good to firm up front end but i didnt have issue with mine and shorter bumps when on track last weekend and i prefer a compliant setup.
I took a couple of pics of the adjuster setup i have, first up front with cover on, you can see the rubber dust cap is accessible through the hole ive cut in frunk cover, rubber cap is touching the adjuster tab on damper but it doesnt cause any issue, i guess in time it might wear a hole in it but no biggy.
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konifront1.jpg)
Next with the 3 different length adjuster knobs in place, i forgot i recieved 2 of each and have been using the shorter one which is a bit fiddly with frunk cover on, will carry both types from now on.
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konifront2.jpg)
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konifront3.jpg)
And the Rear, hard plastic cover clears the adjuster tab on damper so just remove it, fit on adjuster turn to desired setting then remove and refit cover, keeps it nice and oem looking :)
(http://www.carbotech-europe.com/images/mr2konirear1.jpg)
HTH
I just noticed the HSD coilover bodies with Koni inserts.
Is that a way I can improve my BCs?
If I get the Koni cut-a-strut inserts, could I insert them onto my 4/6kg spring BC setup and get a more compliant ride?
I'm sick of bouncing around now. And having now spent some time in Helen's stock MR2, there's a LOT to be said for stock suspension for compliance. So if I can get a blend, that'd be great
Quote from: shnazzle on June 23, 2019, 20:00I'm sick of bouncing around now. And having now spent some time in Helen's stock MR2, there's a LOT to be said for stock suspension for compliance. So if I can get a blend, that'd be grea
You nailed why I stuck with the OEM shocks/springs and cut the springs to restore ride hight to a few mm below stock spec. only.
I found bracing to improve steering response and stability but is also reduced chassis compliance and thus stiffened up the ride quite enough for comfort on real world roads.
Will go Konis with current springs when the shocks need replacing.
Just spotted this post ( not getting email notification for some reason?) but yes i believe you can fit the Koni inserts into coilovers like BC etc once you gut them, not sure if they need a shim or something guess it depends on ID of BC once gutted but maybe others can comment on that.
You will love the Koni damping compared to the BC, maybe need to tweak spring rates a touch to give more plush ride but the Koni will handle BC spring rate if turned up.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 28, 2019, 09:08Just spotted this post ( not getting email notification for some reason?) but yes i believe you can fit the Koni inserts into coilovers like BC etc once you gut them, not sure if they need a shim or something guess it depends on ID of BC once gutted but maybe others can comment on that.
You will love the Koni damping compared to the BC, maybe need to tweak spring rates a touch to give more plush ride but the Koni will handle BC spring rate if turned up.
I'm on 4/6kg. Does that help?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 28, 2019, 12:05I'm on 4/6kg. Does that help?
Well its certainly better than the higher spring option on BC!! , still probably too firm for UK roads i think though but worth a try see how it rides, Koni should handle those rates from what others have said but its big jump from stock or Teins, but easy/cheap enough to get some Faulkner springs at lower rates for your BC's if you need more compliance.
Stock springs from what other have posted on SC are as below for reference...
Front - 1.3kg/mm
Rear - 2.1kg/mm
and Tein S-tech ...
Front - 1.9kg/mm
Rear - 2.9kg/mm
I think if i change my springs front could do with around 3 to 3.5kg and to keep same +50% ratio to rear thats around 4.5 - 5kg should work ok, always take a bit of playing around and your current springs with Konis should ride lot better than it is with BC damping anyhows.
Ian
OEM springs+dampers, with stiffer ARBs would be a possible road setup for someone to try?
Quote from: james_ly on June 28, 2019, 15:26OEM springs+dampers, with stiffer ARBs would be a possible road setup for someone to try?
Wel im on the Konis and Tein springs with Whiteline ARB front and rear and its simply superb for what it is and cost, i would imagine stock spring/damper with the ARB upgrade would be ok but i found the stock damper/spring setup a bit floaty, not sure if it was height or damping related but thing bit of both as springs were first mod which improved that a lot, dampers were next and totally sorted it, arb no massive difference on road unless really pressing on but they do come into there own on track though and help hold car up much better.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 23, 2019, 20:00I just noticed the HSD coilover bodies with Koni inserts.
Is that a way I can improve my BCs?
If I get the Koni cut-a-strut inserts, could I insert them onto my 4/6kg spring BC setup and get a more compliant ride?
I'm sick of bouncing around now. And having now spent some time in Helen's stock MR2, there's a LOT to be said for stock suspension for compliance. So if I can get a blend, that'd be great
I don't think you can do this with the BC. The HSD case is steel. I have to weld a narrower top on the case so it can compress fit the KOni inserts. The HSD case also has a solid bottom so you can drill a hole for the bottom Koni screw to hold the insert in. The HSD camber plate is the right diameter for the top of the Koni strut. I use to sell the Powertrix/HSD coilovers so I had lots of spare parts laying around to work it and a shock dyno in my house.
You could us the double adjustable koni inserts but they would be harder to install and more expensive.
The easier path if you have the BC is to simply replace the internals with Bilstein pistons, as long as they are the regular and not inverted.. You can valve the bilstein to identical valving as the Koni. I have done this a couple of times. The results are good. The credit goes to this guys who provided the info.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html)
Either way it does require some knowledge of working of shocks.
Quote from: silversprint on July 8, 2019, 22:39Quote from: shnazzle on June 23, 2019, 20:00I just noticed the HSD coilover bodies with Koni inserts.
Is that a way I can improve my BCs?
If I get the Koni cut-a-strut inserts, could I insert them onto my 4/6kg spring BC setup and get a more compliant ride?
I'm sick of bouncing around now. And having now spent some time in Helen's stock MR2, there's a LOT to be said for stock suspension for compliance. So if I can get a blend, that'd be great
I don't think you can do this with the BC. The HSD case is steel. I have to weld a narrower top on the case so it can compress fit the KOni inserts. The HSD case also has a solid bottom so you can drill a hole for the bottom Koni screw to hold the insert in. The HSD camber plate is the right diameter for the top of the Koni strut. I use to sell the Powertrix/HSD coilovers so I had lots of spare parts laying around to work it and a shock dyno in my house.
You could us the double adjustable koni inserts but they would be harder to install and more expensive.
The easier path if you have the BC is to simply replace the internals with Bilstein pistons, as long as they are the regular and not inverted.. You can valve the bilstein to identical valving as the Koni. I have done this a couple of times. The results are good. The credit goes to this guys who provided the info.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html)
Either way it does require some knowledge of working of shocks.
Ah OK. So it's either stock struts and Koni or BC and Bilstein.
Thanks heaps for the info
Im sure the BC case could be made to work with the insert just like the HSD, not a straight forward drop in by sounds of it just a case of making spacer to get ID/OD correct and a fixing for base of insert, without seeing the BC from the 2 its hard to say just how much work it is though and while the length of casing for working out base fixing could be checked before stripping internals but the bore size is going to mean gutting it, if I could get hold of a set of old/blown BC I could do some measuring.
Quote from: thetyrant on July 9, 2019, 07:28Im sure the BC case could be made to work with the insert just like the HSD, not a straight forward drop in by sounds of it just a case of making spacer to get ID/OD correct and a fixing for base of insert, without seeing the BC from the 2 its hard to say just how much work it is though and while the length of casing for working out base fixing could be checked before stripping internals but the bore size is going to mean gutting it, if I could get hold of a set of old/blown BC I could do some measuring.
You can use mine if I can borrow your suspension :) haha
I can lend you my spare stock dampers/springs :D not a complete bolt on kit though as used some parts like topmounts etc when i fitted the konis.
Ive been trying to find pictures of the roadster BC BR kit to get an idea on how different to other BC kits ive had in past, i did eventually find some from a seller on FB group and looks like could possibly be made to work, the BC kit is meant to have a 46mm piston so ID is at least that and Koni insert is smaller OD so would fit inside, would need a sleeve or something making to get a good fit like was done on the HSD conversion mentioned above, next issue is the lower bolt fixing of the insert as the BC damper looks a bit flimsy on bottom on pictures ive seen not sure if would be strong enough to bolt the insert into, but without taking one apart hard to say although im sure it would be easy enough to make something to sort that though either a top hat type insert or welding on big thick washer etc.
The length of the BC damper body is another question though as to if it would take the length of koni insert especially on the front, rear looks plenty long enough but front might not be, again hard to say without seeing one. I guess anyone with a BC kit could measure the length of damper section and it would give us an idea on this part at least :)
I have a old set of bc coilovers.
Koni inserts won't really work with them.
Koni insert specs:
Front:
12in body
42mm OD
Rear
13.75in body
49mm OD
The BC shock cases have a 46mm ID.
Quote from: silversprint on July 9, 2019, 19:15I have a old set of bc coilovers.
Koni inserts won't really work with them.
Koni insert specs:
Front:
12in body
42mm OD
Rear
13.75in body
49mm OD
The BC shock cases have a 46mm ID.
Ah ok thanks for info, didn't realise the rear Koni was such a fatty! back to my conversion of the stock damper body to take a threaded sleeve for normal coilover springs then :)
This setup sounds appealing! It sounds like the right mix of geometry adjust-ability and a compliant ride that I'm after.
Is there a summary list of the parts required?
Quote from: BahnStormer on September 12, 2019, 10:48This setup sounds appealing! It sounds like the right mix of geometry adjust-ability and a compliant ride that I'm after.
Is there a summary list of the parts required?
Its a brilliant setup for road/fastroad and occasional track :) all info is in the thread I think but all you need is some Koni sport dampers and springs to suit your needs, ive gone for Teins but should work with any springs including stock but wouldn't want to go any lower than Teins or it will mess of suspension function, of course you need a set of donor stock dampers to cut and install the Koni units into :)
Anybody tried the Eibach or H&R springs - looks like similar / less lowering and slightly more compliant spring rate... almost close to stock!
In particular - this bundle of Koni Sport + H&R springs for £672?
https://www.carnoisseur.com/products/details/koni-sport-suspension-kit-to-fit-toyota-mr2-1140-3991
One other thought / concern: camber adjustment? Eibach EZ-cams for the rear? Anything needed for the front?
edit: looks like Eibach do an EZ-cam bolt set for the front too - let's hope that's all that is required?
Quote from: BahnStormer on September 16, 2019, 19:45Anybody tried the Eibach or H&R springs - looks like similar / less lowering and slightly more compliant spring rate... almost close to stock!
In particular - this bundle of Koni Sport + H&R springs for £672?
https://www.carnoisseur.com/products/details/koni-sport-suspension-kit-to-fit-toyota-mr2-1140-3991
One other thought / concern: camber adjustment? Eibach EZ-cams for the rear? Anything needed for the front?
Looked quite extensively into this all.
Decided to stay with OEM shocks and cut the stock spings (car is 130 kg lighter). Put in camber bolts both front and rear.
Maybe read the Southern Belle thread? There are quite a few more musings and mods. shared on it.
Slightly less misleading picture here;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KONI-4x-Sport-Shock-Absorber-Full-Kit-Adjustable-8641-1420SPORT-8641-1422SPORT/253273710644?hash=item3af84a2034%3Ag%3Ahv4AAOSwG-1Z1KU5&fits=Car+Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3AMR+2%7CCars+Type%3A1.8+16V+VT-i%7CPlat_Gen%3AMK+III%7CCars+Year%3A2004%7CBodyStyle%3AConvertible%7CVariant%3AMK+III+%5B1999-2007%5D+Convertible%7CEngine%3A1794ccm+140HP+103KW+%28Petrol%29
Its a lot of money but this may be the best compromise suspension set up (with springs of your choice) for those of us that like the b roads.
Maybe a direct approach to the company if a few people were interested could get some discount??
Quote from: Topdownman on September 16, 2019, 20:23Its a lot of money
Well, all is relative. Not too bad for quality adjustable shocks all round.
Quote from: Topdownman on September 16, 2019, 20:23Slightly less misleading picture here;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KONI-4x-Sport-Shock-Absorber-Full-Kit-Adjustable-8641-1420SPORT-8641-1422SPORT/253273710644?hash=item3af84a2034%3Ag%3Ahv4AAOSwG-1Z1KU5&fits=Car+Make%3AToyota%7CModel%3AMR+2%7CCars+Type%3A1.8+16V+VT-i%7CPlat_Gen%3AMK+III%7CCars+Year%3A2004%7CBodyStyle%3AConvertible%7CVariant%3AMK+III+%5B1999-2007%5D+Convertible%7CEngine%3A1794ccm+140HP+103KW+%28Petrol%29
Its a lot of money but this may be the best compromise suspension set up (with springs of your choice) for those of us that like the b roads.
Maybe a direct approach to the company if a few people were interested could get some discount??
That said Koni Sport kit, but no mention of springs... the link I sent was the same adjustable shocks, but with progressive Eibach springs with near-OEM spring-rates... and ~£80 extra.... for springs that are normally >£150... also next day delivery included versus one that is described as a "non-stocked item"....
H&R springs, not eibachs in the kit.
If it had been eibachs for that price then it is a good deal.
Not sure what is going to happen to the price of german goods shortly though....
Spring wise there isnt much in it rate/height wise between the Tein, Eibach and H&R, i would of gone for the full koni kit which comes with the H&R springs as its cheapest way to get the springs, but i already had the Tein springs so bought dampers on there own from a ebay seller in germany who had stock.
Still marvels me how good this setup is as an allrounder :D
Quote from: Topdownman on September 17, 2019, 06:54H&R springs, not eibachs in the kit.
If it had been eibachs for that price then it is a good deal.
Not sure what is going to happen to the price of german goods shortly though....
I stand corrected - I think I found another kit that included Eibachs, but that was ~£800+delivery (for all their kits - any springs), then this one can along for £670 incl delivery.
I'm more worried about ANY supply rather than just the price.... MeisterR are also imported, so also will fluctuate if you need spares... and for them, the problem was nobody ever had any stock...
Larkspeed.co.uk are good for Koni in uk but didnt have stock when i wanted these, also price was a bit more as i think i paid just over £500 delivered for the 4 dampers, they have kit with dampers & springs listed at £645 at moment so good price see link below.
https://larkspeed.com/shopper/i/277L11403991/Toyota-MR2-Spyder-1-8-16v-ZZW30-Koni-Sport-Suspension-Kit
The Koni kit uses Eibach in some markets and H&R in others. Eibach and H&R don't publish spring rates, but the data that has been obtained suggest the H&R and Tein are very similar in both rate and drop, and the Eibach may be slightly softer and give slightly less drop.
As for camber, if you just add the springs like Tein, you should end up about -1.1 front and -1.7 rear with stock bolts, which works well. If you want more or less, you will need camber bolts. The fronts are 14 mm, even though many suppliers list them as 15 mm, which is the size for the rear
Quote from: Beachbum957 on September 17, 2019, 11:43The Koni kit uses Eibach in some markets and H&R in others. Eibach and H&R don't publish spring rates, but the data that has been obtained suggest the H&R and Tein are very similar in both rate and drop, and the Eibach may be slightly softer and give slightly less drop.
As for camber, if you just add the springs like Tein, you should end up about -1.1 front and -1.7 rear with stock bolts, which works well. If you want more or less, you will need camber bolts. The fronts are 14 mm, even though many suppliers list them as 15 mm, which is the size for the rear
Ta.
I have ordered:
KoniSport adjustable shocks + H&R springs kit as per previous link.
Eibach EZ-cam bolts, front and rear...
Delivery confirmed for next week. Should have them and installed with OEM geometry (Kwikfit) for next weekend and I'll book into WIM after the rugby world cup as it will eat into a Saturday.
I appreciate that the slight drop with stock cam bolts is probably okay, but I really want to be able to take the car to Wheels-In-Motion and get them to put their custom geometry setup on it again...
Good choice im sure you will be happy, dont forget to trim the bumpstops if you want decent ride quality with the lower springs, will be interesting to see if there is any mention of it in with H&R springs as Tein used to advise it but now dont mention it for MR2 on instruction sheet despite spring being same!, if you dont trim them its very firm/bouncy on road!
Well done on your order.
Looking forward to hearing yourthoughts.
Would be good if you can measure the drop with the H&R springs as the thing I like most about the teins is that they drop the front more than the rear (29/33 from memory) which I think helps stopping the jacked up look of the standard front height
Quote from: thetyrant on September 18, 2019, 15:00Good choice im sure you will be happy, dont forget to trim the bumpstops if you want decent ride quality with the lower springs, will be interesting to see if there is any mention of it in with H&R springs as Tein used to advise it but now dont mention it for MR2 on instruction sheet despite spring being same!, if you dont trim them its very firm/bouncy on road!
shocks and springs are going straight to headcase where they will be installed next week - I've passed the message on, although I'm pretty telling him about how to modify an MR2 really is like telling your nan to suck eggs....
Quote from: Topdownman on September 18, 2019, 15:22Would be good if you can measure the drop with the H&R springs as the thing I like most about the teins is that they drop the front more than the rear (29/33 from memory) which I think helps stopping the jacked up look of the standard front height
Pretty sure H&R are 30mm front, 30mm rear... I doubt the 4mm will be noticable.
Sounds like you got it hand :D
The kit is all fitted - need to test them with my old wheels and tyres (AD08R's) as the summer Conti's (Premium Contact 2's) are a little old and pretty unknown to me and also (I'm guessing) softening the ride up a little.... so far, I'd say that this is a great little alternative to an OEM refresh - definitely firmer than the 100k suspension this car had before I bought it a month ago... and nowhere near as hard as the coilovers I had before... and pretty adjustable: with front and rear Eibach EZ-cam bolts, Tony @ WIM was able to get exactly the same "fast road" geometry that I had on the old BC Racing Coilovers, so pleased as punch right now....
I need to give them a proper workout when I can find some open, dry-ish roads and ideally some tyres that I know a bit better... or have built up some more trust in these tyres....
edit: I can confirm that Premium Contact 2's do NOT "hook up and hold on" like AD08R's... wet or dry.... no real surprise there.... but I reckon they would outbrake AD08R's on most roads.... overall ride and handling are all really controlled and predictable, so I might be able to try to push on a little more before I get the AD08R's back on....
I THINK (
@thetyrant please confirm! ) there's just under 720deg of adjustment, so I've dialed all four corners from full soft to 360deg in from soft (I think that's on the firm side of mid-way).... it wasn't bad before - just a little more floaty than I'd like... ride still seems very compliant and a little more tight and direct than before.... now just need to find B road one morning and see if it's too firm for what I want it for (will it get unsettled on uneven surfaces, etc)...
Sounds good, its a brilliant setup for the money i think and far more compliant than coilovers which on the road is critical for traction.
Adjustment wise yes i think your right there is 720deg total i think so 2 full rotations, same as most coilover dampers just without a clicker on the top ;) .. i find +90 from soft ideal for normal road use with decent body control and compliant ride, little mushy if you start pushing hard and i use +180 for sporty road use and wind it nearly all the way stiff on track.
Quote from: thetyrant on October 7, 2019, 09:05Sounds good, its a brilliant setup for the money i think and far more compliant than coilovers which on the road is critical for traction.
Adjustment wise yes i think your right there is 720deg total i think so 2 full rotations, same as most coilover dampers just without a clicker on the top ;) .. i find +90 from soft ideal for normal road use with decent body control and compliant ride, little mushy if you start pushing hard and i use +180 for sporty road use and wind it nearly all the way stiff on track.
We have been running the Tein Koni setup for over a year and normally run at 270 Deg from full soft (3/4 turn) for spirited street driving. It could use just a bit more (1 turn) when pushing really hard. We started at 180 deg which gave a nice ride, but found 270 deg didn't compromise the ride.
On another MR2 with stock springs we run the Konis at about 90 deg (1/4 turn) from full soft front and about 135 deg rear (3/8 turn), which works well everywhere.
Thanks for the feedback guys... I'm coming from 4kg/6kg coilovers (And AD08R's), so these progressive Tein's and Conti tyres are pretty pretty comfy, even on "360deg" (halfway soft/hard)... that said, once I've had a few decent runs to set a benchmark, I might dial the fronts back a little and see how noticeable it is.... not point in a firm ride that just jiggles about and loses traction on every B road!
edit: I've slacked the front off half a turn.... so now running 360deg from soft rear and 180 from soft front...
Quote from: silversprint on July 8, 2019, 22:39Quote from: shnazzle on June 23, 2019, 20:00I just noticed the HSD coilover bodies with Koni inserts.
Is that a way I can improve my BCs?
If I get the Koni cut-a-strut inserts, could I insert them onto my 4/6kg spring BC setup and get a more compliant ride?
I'm sick of bouncing around now. And having now spent some time in Helen's stock MR2, there's a LOT to be said for stock suspension for compliance. So if I can get a blend, that'd be great
I don't think you can do this with the BC. The HSD case is steel. I have to weld a narrower top on the case so it can compress fit the KOni inserts. The HSD case also has a solid bottom so you can drill a hole for the bottom Koni screw to hold the insert in. The HSD camber plate is the right diameter for the top of the Koni strut. I use to sell the Powertrix/HSD coilovers so I had lots of spare parts laying around to work it and a shock dyno in my house.
You could us the double adjustable koni inserts but they would be harder to install and more expensive.
The easier path if you have the BC is to simply replace the internals with Bilstein pistons, as long as they are the regular and not inverted.. You can valve the bilstein to identical valving as the Koni. I have done this a couple of times. The results are good. The credit goes to this guys who provided the info.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-1st-gen-1993-1997/770149-diy-shock-revalve-parts-1-3-a.html)
Either way it does require some knowledge of working of shocks.
Above link is great info! been reading all morning, thanks.