MR2 Roadster Owners Club

I have bought a PFL car, so 15" all around. Been thinking about going 16" at the rear. Is it worth it? Or at least any negative points?

For tyres, I know there seems to be a lot of controversy. The car currently has Toyo Proxes T1R. But I hear they are not well regarded? Car came with them.

The tyres I keep seeing recommended are Yokohama AD08RS and Michelin PS3. Tyres are for summer only. I don't drive the car in winter.

For wheels, I was thinking of going Advanti_Storm_S1. But a dealer told me they are no longer made.

I also like the looks of the Kosei K1. But no idea if they are heavier than stock. If I can't go lighter, I would like to at least not go heavier.

Thanks in advance for your input. :)

16" rear will have been used by Toyota for marketing purposes, or because tyres became available in 16".

Nowadays the reverse is the problem, no new 'sporty' tyres are being made in 15", & less than 17" and above.

I think you have to go to a 195 front for Michelin PS3,  But I don't know why you'd want to anyway, the PS3 is a very old tyre.

In the last year or so they were featured in tyre tests Falken & Hankook bettered them.

You mention wheel weight..... the 16" rear is quite a bit heavier.  The 15" front is light... to get lighter probably needs forged wheels.

I'm not sure if the AD08 available in pfl front & rear, but probably your grippiest option.  The old AD08 suffered grip loss with heat cycles it's said, - don't know about the new one.  Summer use only though....semi-slick maybe?

@Zens

Funnily enough I have just gone the other way. From 16 to 15 rears. I think Mr T got it right 1st time.
I don't dislike 16s far from it. But the 15s bring something extra to the party.

Is there something you don't like about the 15s that gives you concern?
What are your thoughts, that prompted the question.

To echo Gaz. One thing you don't want, is to go heavier, and to go lighter, usually requires many wine tokens.

If its tyre choice, it's a nightmare either way.
Shame you are so far away, otherwise yes you most certainly need a pair of 16's, which I just happen to have for sale.  ;D

For me it goes on what look you prefer, no real drawbacks of either. I prefer the 15s on the rear. You'll do well to notice any weight difference going with 16s, i dont when i swap my FL to PFL wheels on track days. 

Nothing wrong with a T1R tyre, but then again tyre choice is completely dependant on what you plan to do with the car, and what budget you have.

As for the PS3, you can get them in FL rear size, i have them. Been brilliant tyres, and ive pushed them way outside their comfort zone many times on track and they still refuse to give in.

Watch out for offsets when picking wheels. Im not saying to stay with the same offsets but once you alter it, it will change the scrub radius and you will lessen the responsive ride. 
 The OZ Ultraleggera is an ideal aftermarket wheel that is light weight that does not cost a fortune for a quality wheel. It will be less weight than the OEM.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 25, 2023, 21:3116" rear will have been used by Toyota for marketing purposes, or because tyres became available in 16".

Nowadays the reverse is the problem, no new 'sporty' tyres are being made in 15", & less than 17" and above.

I think you have to go to a 195 front for Michelin PS3,  But I don't know why you'd want to anyway, the PS3 is a very old tyre.

In the last year or so they were featured in tyre tests Falken & Hankook bettered them.

You mention wheel weight..... the 16" rear is quite a bit heavier.  The 15" front is light... to get lighter probably needs forged wheels.

I'm not sure if the AD08 available in pfl front & rear, but probably your grippiest option.  The old AD08 suffered grip loss with heat cycles it's said, - don't know about the new one.  Summer use only though....semi-slick maybe?

Thanks. I wasn't aware it was for marketing only. I thought the change was done for better traction, understeer/oversteer balance etc. I do like the looks though.

As for the PS3 being old, well, the MR2 is old too right. :) But Michelin is a premium brand and the Pilot Sports have one of the best reputations in the business. Would they be worse than the Toyo Proxies I have now? I doubt it.

I never had Hankook but aren't they a budget brand? Falken I have had and they are good. The drift scene raves about them. So despite the PS3 being bested by them, I guess in design and performance, are they as durable and well made as Michelin? And which Falken and Hankook tyres are we talking about? I will definitely check them out. :)

For weight, it would be great to go lighter. But not an absolute must. I just don't want to go heavier. But I'm finding it difficult to find good looking wheels in the correct sizes. Maybe because wheel design has moved on and all that is left in the size are the older designs, since there are no new sports cars with such little wheels. I guess not much financial incentive in offering newer designs in that size.

I looked at many and the only ones I like are the S1 and K1. OZ looks alright. But honestly not better than the stock 5-spoke in my opinion. Performance comes first. So not willing to go larger than 15" front and 16" rear. But it wouldn't hurt to have something that improves the looks of the car. But it's turning out to be a tall order. Maybe because the stock 5-spoke already look so nice. An alternative is to just find some stock 16" FL wheel. But I've looked and couldn't locate any.

Quote from: Ardent on May 25, 2023, 21:53@Zens

Funnily enough I have just gone the other way. From 16 to 15 rears. I think Mr T got it right 1st time.
I don't dislike 16s far from it. But the 15s bring something extra to the party.

Is there something you don't like about the 15s that gives you concern?
What are your thoughts, that prompted the question.

To echo Gaz. One thing you don't want, is to go heavier, and to go lighter, usually requires many wine tokens.

If its tyre choice, it's a nightmare either way.
Shame you are so far away, otherwise yes you most certainly need a pair of 16's, which I just happen to have for sale.  ;D

 Thanks. That's interesting Ardent. :) What is it exactly that you like about having the 15" at the rear, which is making you go back?

What prompted me to look for 16" was a combination of wanting to upgrade performance and improve the looks of my wheels with the fact Toyota changed the size to 16", which I had thought was for improvement. So I thought, if Toyota "corrected" the car, it's probably a good idea to follow suit, if I will buy new wheels anyways. :)

But yes, heavier is not an option. I would just keep stock then. But I thought if I could go lighter, would improve performance or at least the experience. If I can improve the looks while I'm at it, then win win. :)

Quote from: Iain on May 25, 2023, 21:57For me it goes on what look you prefer, no real drawbacks of either. I prefer the 15s on the rear. You'll do well to notice any weight difference going with 16s, i dont when i swap my FL to PFL wheels on track days. 

Nothing wrong with a T1R tyre, but then again tyre choice is completely dependant on what you plan to do with the car, and what budget you have.

As for the PS3, you can get them in FL rear size, i have them. Been brilliant tyres, and ive pushed them way outside their comfort zone many times on track and they still refuse to give in.

Thanks. So you use the 16" on trackdays? Just because you have the wheels, or any other particular reason?

As for what I plan to do with the car for tyre choice, this is a weekend car for me. For Sunday morning B road blasts and some trackdays here and there, most likely very seldom. Budget, I'm not too worried. I doubt I will put 2000Km on the car a year. Maybe not even 1000Km, unless I become addicted to the track, which is a hour away from me. And 15" and 16" tyres don't tend to be stupidly expensive by what I have seen.

Definitely not looking for just budget tyres though. I think the car deserves good tyres. One of the most fun cars I ever drove, let alone owned and I have owned a few nice ones. I'm in love with the little thing. :)

Great to know the PS3 can be had in FL rear sizes. But I guess if I keep the stock 15" set up, with the PS3 only being available in 195 for the front, it will mean I will have to move up from 205 at the rear to keep the proper stager. Will PS3 offer that? I will need to look.

Quote from: Dev on May 25, 2023, 22:28Watch out for offsets when picking wheels. Im not saying to stay with the same offsets but once you alter it, it will change the scrub radius and you will lessen the responsive ride. 
 The OZ Ultraleggera is an ideal aftermarket wheel that is light weight that does not cost a fortune for a quality wheel. It will be less weight than the OEM.

ET45 seems nearly impossible to find for the sizes. So this is indeed something which worries me. I believe the OZs are not the correct offset either? It's been a while since I looked. Main thing against the Ultraleggeras is the design. Not very fond of it. Maybe OZ make other designs in the same size? Must check.

I'm a fan of deep dish or concave wheels. I realize with narrower wheels such as 6" and 6.5" this is harder to obtain. But the S1 and K1 manage to look nicer nonetheless.

The stock wheels are very hard to beat without spending a lot of dosh.  I have 16s on the rear of my PFL, but there's nothing wrong with 15s.

I run Nankang NS20 215/45 rear and 195/50 front. Good grip in all conditions, if a bit noisy.  Don't be put off by the name, they are condsidered to be premium tyres.

The main thing is to keep the stagger.

Just a few thoughts @Zens 

If you are already using PFL wheels, why not keep them, refurbish them and have them powder-coated in an interesting non-silver colour ? Two of my cars have received this treatment, ending up with two finishes light green on one, gold on another. But black, grey etc also look good.

As for tyres:- yes a minefield and a frustrating choice. My personal favourite is Nankang NS2R which in the UK we can get sizes to suit 15'' wheels

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 08:19ET45 seems nearly impossible to find for the sizes. So this is indeed something which worries me. I believe the OZs are not the correct offset either? It's been a while since I looked. Main thing against the Ultraleggeras is the design. Not very fond of it. Maybe OZ make other designs in the same size? Must check.

I'm a fan of deep dish or concave wheels. I realize with narrower wheels such as 6" and 6.5" this is harder to obtain. But the S1 and K1 manage to look nicer nonetheless.

I run et30 16*7, wouldn't have been my first choice but there were other compromises. It definitely has a big impact on the way the car feels so tread carefully if deviating from the standard wheels, as @Dev has alluded to.

Front end feels very planted but it has lost some of the sparkle of the standard setup.

Quote from: Carolyn on May 26, 2023, 08:20The stock wheels are very hard to beat without spending a lot of dosh.  I have 16s on the rear of my PFL, but there's nothing wrong with 15s.

I run Nankang NS20 215/45 rear and 195/50 front. Good grip in all conditions, if a bit noisy.  Don't be put off by the name, they are condsidered to be premium tyres.

The main thing is to keep the stagger.

Thanks. Which 16" wheels did you go with for your PFL?

Quote from: Gibla on May 26, 2023, 08:21Just a few thoughts @Zens 

If you are already using PFL wheels, why not keep them, refurbish them and have them powder-coated in an interesting non-silver colour ? Two of my cars have received this treatment, ending up with two finishes light green on one, gold on another. But black, grey etc also look good.

As for tyres:- yes a minefield and a frustrating choice. My personal favourite is Nankang NS2R which in the UK we can get sizes to suit 15'' wheels

This is definitely an option I have considered and is what I will do if I can't find suitable wheels. Which colour was your car with the gold wheels? Photos? :)

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 08:28I run et30 16*7, wouldn't have been my first choice but there were other compromises. It definitely has a big impact on the way the car feels so tread carefully if deviating from the standard wheels, as @Dev has alluded to.

Front end feels very planted but it has lost some of the sparkle of the standard setup.

So you are running 16x7 all around? I definitely want to keep 15" at the front. Just going up to 195 from 185 worries me already.

Is there a consensus as to how much you can deviate from the stock offset and width before you see noticeable negative difference? Because as far as I could find, ET45 and 6" or even 6.5" is basically impossible.

Black car has the gold wheels (Speedline 16'' on that car, but planning to replicate the gold onto a PFL set) the gold would really suit any dark coloured car.

Piccys? later (need to take some :-) )

This car with the Speedlines is 16'' all round  195/50/16 and 215/45/16 < so a deviation from stock ,in my opinion not a massive difference , but slightly inferior

Quote from: Gibla on May 26, 2023, 08:46Black car has the gold wheels (Speedline 16'' on that car, but planning to replicate the gold onto a PFL set) the gold would really suit any dark coloured car.

Piccys? later (need to take some :-) )

This car with the Speedlines is 16'' all round  195/50/16 and 215/45/16 < so a deviation from stock ,in my opinion not a massive difference , but slightly inferior

True. Gold and black looks great. Always loved the JPS Lotus cars. Also looks great with green cars. But I also think it goes with silver or gray cars. Lotus and Porsche have silver with golden wheels and it looks great. Maybe because silver is so neutral, adds just the right amount of the spark. But it needs to be the correct "gold".

By the way, I was reading through this thread: https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?topic=71747.0

Pity the PDF link is dead. :(

Could be useful. The OP seems to have put a lot of effort into the research.

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 07:47Thanks. I wasn't aware it was for marketing only. I thought the change was done for better traction, understeer/oversteer balance etc. I do like the looks though.

I never had Hankook but aren't they a budget brand? Falken I have had and they are good. The drift scene raves about them. So despite the PS3 being bested by them, I guess in design and performance, are they as durable and well made as Michelin? And which Falken and Hankook tyres are we talking about? I will definitely check them out. :)

For weight, it would be great to go lighter. But not an absolute must. I just don't want to go heavier. But I'm finding it difficult to find good looking wheels in the correct sizes. Maybe because wheel design has moved on and all that is left in the size are the older designs, since there are no new sports cars with such little wheels. I guess not much financial incentive in offering newer designs in that size.

Sorry, I don't know that they changed to the 16" for marketing reasons...it's just a possibility, as can be seen by the absurd sizes wheels are getting to nowadays. The difference in overall diameter pfl - FL is 14mm. And very slight track increase.

The Falken that fitted used to be the 914, now it's the ZE310. The Hankook is the Ventus prime K125. Hankook is a premium brand, some of their tyres are o/e equipment.  Both are available in stock sizes.

If you like the appearance of the stock wheels stick with them. (personally I don't)

Used FL rears are readily available in the UK...

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 26, 2023, 09:25Sorry, I don't know that they changed to the 16" for marketing reasons...it's just a possibility, as can be seen by the absurd sizes wheels are getting to nowadays. The difference in overall diameter pfl - FL is 14mm. And very slight track increase.

The Falken that fitted used to be the 914, now it's the ZE310. The Hankook is the Ventus prime K125. Hankook is a premium brand, some of their tyres are o/e equipment.  Both are available in stock sizes.

If you like the appearance of the stock wheels stick with them. (personally I don't)

Used FL rears are readily available in the UK...

Readily available new or used? Used I can't find them here as the MR2 is very rare and FL even more so. I haven't asked Toyota if they can still be bought new.

I will check the Falken and Hankook models, thanks.

What wheels and tyres setup do you have?

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 08:37Thanks. Which 16" wheels did you go with for your PFL?

Facelift MR2 ones.

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 09:55Readily available new or used? Used I can't find them here as the MR2 is very rare and FL even more so. I haven't asked Toyota if they can still be bought new.

I will check the Falken and Hankook models, thanks.

What wheels and tyres setup do you have?

It might be worth having some decent used ones shipped from the UK.  I'm sure J-Spec could do it for you.

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 09:55Readily available new or used? Used I can't find them here as the MR2 is very rare and FL even more so. I haven't asked Toyota if they can still be bought new.

I will check the Falken and Hankook models, thanks.

What wheels and tyres setup do you have?

Used wheels. I don't know if Toyota would still sell new ones, but I wouldn't like to know the price....

I have Rota in stock diameter, & 2 sets of JR Racing, one in stock, & one with 16" fronts, so that I could use a more modern front tyre.....no opinion on them yet.

Be aware too that if you switch to aftermarket the fronts will likely be 7" width, - & a 185 tyre doesn't look good on that width. (IMO.....)

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 08:41So you are running 16x7 all around? I definitely want to keep 15" at the front. Just going up to 195 from 185 worries me already.

Is there a consensus as to how much you can deviate from the stock offset and width before you see noticeable negative difference? Because as far as I could find, ET45 and 6" or even 6.5" is basically impossible.

Apologies I had typed a reply to this but I can't see it.

I do have 16 all round, but I stagger the tyres 195/215. There will be a hard limit of how offset/wide you can go before rubbing on the arches but I suspect it's more subjective in terms of when you'd start to feel a negative impact. Important to have the geometry adjusted accordingly too.

That factory setup is good.

I've said before that I prefer the drive on standard FL wheels but these are so light that I prefer them as the suspension is less crashy. All 4 of my OEM wheels needed a refurb too so that was a factor.

Quote from: Carolyn on May 26, 2023, 10:04It might be worth having some decent used ones shipped from the UK.  I'm sure J-Spec could do it for you.

That's an interesting idea. But I wonder how much it would end up costing, after shipping and importing taxes. I also fear damage during shipping. I wouldn't know if it was always there or not, being used. But how much good used ones usually go for the pair?

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 26, 2023, 10:13Used wheels. I don't know if Toyota would still sell new ones, but I wouldn't like to know the price....

I have Rota in stock diameter, & 2 sets of JR Racing, one in stock, & one with 16" fronts, so that I could use a more modern front tyre.....no opinion on them yet.

Be aware too that if you switch to aftermarket the fronts will likely be 7" width, - & a 185 tyre doesn't look good on that width. (IMO.....)

I would also be afraid to ask Toyota.  ;D

Quite a few wheels there. :) How are they for weight and style?

You touched on my main concern with going aftermarket. The front wheels. Really like the 185 size and even 6.5" would be a compromise. But there seems no chance of finding a 6".

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 10:34Apologies I had typed a reply to this but I can't see it.

I do have 16 all round, but I stagger the tyres 195/215. There will be a hard limit of how offset/wide you can go before rubbing on the arches but I suspect it's more subjective in terms of when you'd start to feel a negative impact. Important to have the geometry adjusted accordingly too.

That factory setup is good.

I've said before that I prefer the drive on standard FL wheels but these are so light that I prefer them as the suspension is less crashy. All 4 of my OEM wheels needed a refurb too so that was a factor.

No worries.  ;)

So they are lighter than the stock wheels?

I have done this in the past. Staggering with same width and size wheels all around. It just meant my front tyres were more stretched. I can't say I liked the feeling or the looks though. I got quite a bit of "tramlining" and the front tyres felt noticeably harder. And it looked totally different from the rear. Maybe because I'm not a fan of the stretched tyre look. Your case might be totally different of course. But this was my experience.  :-[   

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 11:24That's an interesting idea. But I wonder how much it would end up costing, after shipping and importing taxes. I also fear damage during shipping. I wouldn't know if it was always there or not, being used. But how much good used ones usually go for the pair?

I really don't know - but not a lot.  I should think the shipping will cost more than the wheels!  Why not email J-Spec and ask?  Can't hurt to find out. They do pack things very well.  If the wheels are so rare there, it has to be worth it, I would have thought.

Quote from: Carolyn on May 26, 2023, 11:43I really don't know - but not a lot.  I should think the shipping will cost more than the wheels!  Why not email J-Spec and ask?  Can't hurt to find out. They do pack things very well.  If the wheels are so rare there, it has to be worth it, I would have thought.

That's a good point. I was just thinking that if it ends up costing as much as a new lightweight wheel/lighter wheel or something. But if I indeed decide to stay OEM, this seems to be the best option. Because I didn't find anything in Germany either.

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 11:37No worries.  ;)

So they are lighter than the stock wheels?

I have done this in the past. Staggering with same width and size wheels all around. It just meant my front tyres were more stretched. I can't say I liked the feeling or the looks though. I got quite a bit of "tramlining" and the front tyres felt noticeably harder. And it looked totally different from the rear. Maybe because I'm not a fan of the stretched tyre look. Your case might be totally different of course. But this was my experience.  :-[   

Exactly that, it picks up every groove in the road. They are lighter than stock, about 5kg from memory without the tyre.

Rather than start with wheels, start with the tires and what is available in different sizes and types.  In the US many people are going back to 15" rear on the FL cars because of tire availability.  The UK and Europe has more options, but finding a tire with proper staggered front and rear sizes can be a challenge.

The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

A 16" tire and wheel package is typically heavier.  The OEM 16X7" wheel is about 3 lbs heavier than the OEM 15X6.5", and the 16" tires are usually slightly heavier than 15"

There are a number of light wheel options, such as Enkei RPF1 and PF01, but if you want to change wheels, stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock (45)

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 12:05Exactly that, it picks up every groove in the road. They are lighter than stock, about 5kg from memory without the tyre.

Do you like that feel?

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 26, 2023, 12:30Rather than start with wheels, start with the tires and what is available in different sizes and types.  In the US many people are going back to 15" rear on the FL cars because of tire availability.  The UK and Europe has more options, but finding a tire with proper staggered front and rear sizes can be a challenge.

The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

A 16" tire and wheel package is typically heavier.  The OEM 16X7" wheel is about 3 lbs heavier than the OEM 15X6.5", and the 16" tires are usually slightly heavier than 15"

There are a number of light wheel options, such as Enkei RPF1 and PF01, but if you want to change wheels, stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock (45)

This is my intention. Stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock, if I can find it. For tires I took a look at the Falken suggested and they are available if PFL or FL sizes no problem. Great prices to compared to some others. I think the Yokohama AD08RS seem to be available in all OEM sizes too, if I remember correctly. So this gives at least 2 options to stay OEM. The problem will be wheels, if I'm to go aftermarket.

But interesting info about the original Bridgestones. Thanks. This means a modern 195/50 could be about the same dimensions. I will try to find out the sizes to compare.

For the excess weight of the rear 16", could probably be offset by going with a lightweight 16"? If lighter enough could even compensate for the tyre weight and end up at the same as stock 15"+tyre? Just guessing as I haven't looked that close into weights yet.

You have to consider what you are going to do with the car. A post above mentions a 3lb weigh difference. 99% of non professional drivers will not be able to notice that.

I have bought an MR2 recently for a bit of fun having had Porsches and Ferraris before amongst other cars. You have to remember it's an old car now and whilst good when new it wasn't the cutting edge of handling and ability and nor should it be at its price point.

I put PS3 all round because it was the easiest way of getting a matching set of tyres. If you want to really notice the difference wheels and tyres make then you really need to change all the shocks, springs, roll bars etc to gain any really noticeable difference for the average driver on the road. Most people think they are better than the average driver but in reality they are not.

Bottom line choose the wheels you like in the size you like and get tyres that fit that match or don't stray far from OEM. When getting tyres go with what you know and like. Someone on the internet saying Nankang are great or Avon are great etc wouldn't sway me if I have never had them before and the suggestion above that Nankang is a premium tyre would be laughed out of the room on a Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari board etc.

It's a good car but they are old and you would need to spend big sums on them to make much real difference beyond how they were set up new and there is lots of snake oil out there that makes no decerbible difference at all. Just have fun with it

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 13:02For the excess weight of the rear 16", could probably be offset by going with a lightweight 16"? If lighter enough could even compensate for the tyre weight and end up at the same as stock 15"+tyre? Just guessing as I haven't looked that close into weights yet.

We are running 16x7 all around.  Originally, they were all the FL rears.  We then went to Enkei PF01 wheels, which are 4 lb (1.8 kg) lighter than the OEM 16" at 14 lb, and about 1 lb lighter than OEM 15".  We are using 195/45-16 front and 205/45-16 rear.  Unfortunately, in the US we only have one tire option in a premium tire in those sizes, which is the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701.  It is a good sport tire, but perhaps not great for track days. If we went to 225/45-16 rear and 195/45-16 or 205/45-16 front, we would have a few more options, such as the Advan A052, or a couple Toyo Proxes.  Your options may be more extensive in your area.

Also check tire weights, as some are much lighter than others in the same sizes.  The 16" Fleva are about the same weight as equivalent 15".  But I wouldn't pick a tire just on weight. 

Does the tire / wheel weight make a difference? I never thought so, but found it did make a difference on less than ideal roads.  We actually made a slight shock adjustment as the lighter assembly can move slightly faster.

Just for reference, TRD recommended using 7x16J+45 all round with 205/45 & 215/45 for use with their Sportivo kit

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 12:53Do you like that feel?

(Double post)

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 09:07True. Gold and black looks great. Always loved the JPS Lotus cars. Also looks great with green cars. But I also think it goes with silver or gray cars. Lotus and Porsche have silver with golden wheels and it looks great. Maybe because silver is so neutral, adds just the right amount of the spark. But it needs to be the correct "gold".

Neither set of wheels (or the cars) are particularly clean ....but hopefully you get the idea

(https://i.ibb.co/JKywHvw/004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKywHvw)

(https://i.ibb.co/TTGKxQB/005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTGKxQB)

(https://i.ibb.co/zbS963t/006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zbS963t)

(https://i.ibb.co/b3YfK30/007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b3YfK30)

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 12:53Do you like that feel?

Not especially, no. It was convenient for me to use those wheels and I've just run with it.

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 08:14Thanks. So you use the 16" on trackdays? Just because you have the wheels, or any other particular reason?

As for what I plan to do with the car for tyre choice, this is a weekend car for me. For Sunday morning B road blasts and some trackdays here and there, most likely very seldom. Budget, I'm not too worried. I doubt I will put 2000Km on the car a year. Maybe not even 1000Km, unless I become addicted to the track, which is a hour away from me. And 15" and 16" tyres don't tend to be stupidly expensive by what I have seen.

Definitely not looking for just budget tyres though. I think the car deserves good tyres. One of the most fun cars I ever drove, let alone owned and I have owned a few nice ones. I'm in love with the little thing. :)

Great to know the PS3 can be had in FL rear sizes. But I guess if I keep the stock 15" set up, with the PS3 only being available in 195 for the front, it will mean I will have to move up from 205 at the rear to keep the proper stager. Will PS3 offer that? I will need to look.

Yeah mines a FL so already had a the 16s, and i put the michelins on because i wanted exactly what you have mentioned. My car was a weekend blast toy with the odd track day so i wanted something that could cope with all needs, and they have.

Im pretty sure they dont do a 205/50/15 in the PS3.

For what its worth my brother runs the TR1s on his MK2 MR2 for weekends and odd track days, hes very happy with them.

Also, be very careful with that track day addiction 😬. I did a trackday soon after i got my 2 and loved it. My weekend fun toy soon changed into a fully stripped out, roll caged, coilovers etc toy! It can get very addictive!

Will also add that on the weight front i was very suprised to find out that my 16s with a 215/45/16 PS3 on weighed LESS than a 15 with a 205/50/15 Toyo r888r on. I guess the semi slick toyo has alot of strengthening material in.

@Zens

When you get to 30 posts.
You should have access to the sales area.

Plenty in there. Or just ebay UK for a guide.

Shipping from UK seems a phaff.

Just making this up. But feels like it would be easier to fly over and take them  back yourself.
Jet2 has 22kg luggage allowance. Bare rim is way less.

Also, whatever post # it was.

You are spot on. 2s are unforgiving on cheap nasty ditch finders.

Quality tyres are key.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 25, 2023, 21:31I'm not sure if the AD08 available in pfl front & rear, but probably your grippiest option.  The old AD08 suffered grip loss with heat cycles it's said,

Correct. Recently renwed the rear for that reason and the front are now NOTABLY less grippy.
First some other  8)  mods to do but the fronts will than be renewed despite being far from worn out.

Quote from: Petrus on May 28, 2023, 09:22Correct. Recently renwed the rear for that reason and the front are now NOTABLY less grippy.
First some other  8)  mods to do but the fronts will than be renewed despite being far from worn out.

So you are on the new AD08S now? Did they fix the loss of grip then in your opinion?

Quote from: Ardent on May 26, 2023, 20:17@Zens

When you get to 30 posts.
You should have access to the sales area.

Plenty in there. Or just ebay UK for a guide.

Shipping from UK seems a phaff.

Just making this up. But feels like it would be easier to fly over and take them  back yourself.
Jet2 has 22kg luggage allowance. Bare rim is way less.

Yeah, I was afraid of the shipping. But like Carolyn said, no hurt in asking. So I will look into it. :)

Quote from: Gibla on May 26, 2023, 15:30Neither set of wheels (or the cars) are particularly clean ....but hopefully you get the idea

(https://i.ibb.co/JKywHvw/004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKywHvw)

(https://i.ibb.co/TTGKxQB/005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTGKxQB)

(https://i.ibb.co/zbS963t/006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zbS963t)

(https://i.ibb.co/b3YfK30/007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b3YfK30)

Looks great! :)

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 15:32Not especially, no. It was convenient for me to use those wheels and I've just run with it.

I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 26, 2023, 15:00We are running 16x7 all around.  Originally, they were all the FL rears.  We then went to Enkei PF01 wheels, which are 4 lb (1.8 kg) lighter than the OEM 16" at 14 lb, and about 1 lb lighter than OEM 15".  We are using 195/45-16 front and 205/45-16 rear.  Unfortunately, in the US we only have one tire option in a premium tire in those sizes, which is the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701.  It is a good sport tire, but perhaps not great for track days. If we went to 225/45-16 rear and 195/45-16 or 205/45-16 front, we would have a few more options, such as the Advan A052, or a couple Toyo Proxes.  Your options may be more extensive in your area.

Also check tire weights, as some are much lighter than others in the same sizes.  The 16" Fleva are about the same weight as equivalent 15".  But I wouldn't pick a tire just on weight. 

Does the tire / wheel weight make a difference? I never thought so, but found it did make a difference on less than ideal roads.  We actually made a slight shock adjustment as the lighter assembly can move slightly faster.

Just for reference, TRD recommended using 7x16J+45 all round with 205/45 & 215/45 for use with their Sportivo kit

I checked the Enkei PF01 and they are affordable here. I'm just not very kin on the style. But I heard Enkei has very light weight wheels, so maybe I can find another Enkei style I like and which fits? Or the Enkei PF01 is the only one they make in the fitting sizes? I can get them here in 15x7 and 16x7. The only thing I'm not very comfortable with is going 7 wide with 195 tyre for the front. But it's looking like if I want to go after market, this will be the narrowest 15" wheel I will find.

Quote from: Iain on May 26, 2023, 17:44Yeah mines a FL so already had a the 16s, and i put the michelins on because i wanted exactly what you have mentioned. My car was a weekend blast toy with the odd track day so i wanted something that could cope with all needs, and they have.

Im pretty sure they dont do a 205/50/15 in the PS3.

For what its worth my brother runs the TR1s on his MK2 MR2 for weekends and odd track days, hes very happy with them.

Also, be very careful with that track day addiction 😬. I did a trackday soon after i got my 2 and loved it. My weekend fun toy soon changed into a fully stripped out, roll caged, coilovers etc toy! It can get very addictive!

Will also add that on the weight front i was very suprised to find out that my 16s with a 215/45/16 PS3 on weighed LESS than a 15 with a 205/50/15 Toyo r888r on. I guess the semi slick toyo has alot of strengthening material in.

So for PS3 would be 215 in 15"? That is probably less of a problem than going 195 for the front I would say? I haven't looked very deep into PS3 sizes yet. It' also different in different markets for availability. I must check around here.

Great to hear about your 16s being lighter than 15. :)

Semi slick is probably out for me. I heard some slalom events here don't allow them for the stock category. If I want to go into that. This is similar to American Autocross. Basically running around a track against time.

And noted about the addiction. I definitely don't want to convert my car into a race car only. But I must admited it has already crossed my mind, if I ever have the need to change, instead of selling it, converting it to a track car or also for hillclimbs etc. I like it too much to let it go. :) Then at least I would be able to swap it for a 2ZZ or some other power bump. For street use here, no chance. Power needs to basically stay stock.

Quote from: Craigjm on May 26, 2023, 13:42Someone on the internet saying Nankang are great or Avon are great etc wouldn't sway me if I have never had them before and the suggestion above that Nankang is a premium tyre would be laughed out of the room on a Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari board etc.

Talking about premium, it seems controversial outside of the big main brands and seems to depend on the market.

I searched what is conisdered premium and the only absolutle premium brands, those which appeared in all lists were Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear and Continental. Apart from that it was different for the US, UK and German speaking countries. Bridgestone and Dunlop was considered premium in some markets. While Hankook was premium only I think in the UK. Some very few times, Yokohama was also considered premium. But in many lists Hankook and Yokohama was considered to be mid range along with Toyo, Falken and Avon.

So the question is, how much does it matter to be premium and if one really cares, then it should be Michelin, Pirelli, Continental or Goodyear.

I do like the Pilot Sport series as I have had them in other cars and liked them. Plus Michelin has a great reputation and are on probably more peformance cars than most brands it seems. But like you said, personal experience probably counts more than what brand is premium, as there doesn't seem to be an agreement outside of the big 4. Even Bridgestone, which is the biggest is sometimes not listed as premium.

it is in deed a deep rabbit hole.

I am a Yoko fan, despite them not doing great in tests. I am running yoko Flevas as they are one of the very few tyres that match the OEM spec. Size, profile, speed and load rating. 

Quote from: Zens on May 28, 2023, 19:55I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

If this helps.
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/sources/oem-wheel-specs/

September 2002 – End of line All Markets

Pre and Face lift Fronts
Width 15" x 6"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 14.6 lbs (15lbs 6.8kg mine after refurb)
Front Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
185/55/15 81V

Pre Face lift Rears
Width 15" x 6.5"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2 lbs (15.6lbs 7.1kg mine after refurb)
Tyres 205/50/15 85V

Face lift Rears
Width 16" x 7"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2lbs
Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
215/45/16 W86

Quote from: Zens on May 28, 2023, 19:56Great to hear about your 16s being lighter than 15. :)

Bear in mind this is purely because i weighed them with a very worn PS3 on the 16 against a brand new R888R on the 15 which will have alot of strengthening material in it and not to mention theres more rubber on the semi slick to start with.

Theres about 1.2kg difference if you weigh the wheels without tyres. Again, barely noticable on the road.

Quote from: Zens on May 28, 2023, 19:52So you are on the new AD08S now? Did they fix the loss of grip then in your opinion?

Only rear and yes the traction is a lót better. So much so that my oversteer set up car now is markedly understeered.

5yrs since I sold the car (480bhp M135i), and they don't make them anymore, but Pilot Super Sports are the best sporty road tyre I have ever used. Coming off the (premium) all season winter tyres onto them was night and day. However that was a 1550kg car putting out nearly 500bhp. Would they feel as amazing on my 150bhp diesel Vectra daily? Would I notice any difference over the Rainsports 5's on it.... Probably not.

Another variable is what suits one car and application may not suit another. A 1500kg 250bhp fwd car might love a set of tyres a 1000kg rwd car doesn't agree with.

Quote from: Iain on May 29, 2023, 08:58Bear in mind this is purely because i weighed them with a very worn PS3 on the 16 against a brand new R888R on the 15 which will have alot of strengthening material in it and not to mention theres more rubber on the semi slick to start with.

Theres about 1.2kg difference if you weigh the wheels without tyres. Again, barely noticable on the road.

1.2kg extra on the 16 versus the 15 rear FL?

Quote from: Zens on May 29, 2023, 10:581.2kg extra on the 16 versus the 15 rear FL?

Something around there yes. But as ive just proved, tyre choice can still make a difference in weight.

Quote from: Ardent on May 28, 2023, 22:08If this helps.
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/sources/oem-wheel-specs/

September 2002 – End of line All Markets

Pre and Face lift Fronts
Width 15" x 6"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 14.6 lbs (15lbs 6.8kg mine after refurb)
Front Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
185/55/15 81V

Pre Face lift Rears
Width 15" x 6.5"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2 lbs (15.6lbs 7.1kg mine after refurb)
Tyres 205/50/15 85V

Face lift Rears
Width 16" x 7"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2lbs
Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
215/45/16 W86

Thanks. It was brought up the the original 185 Bridgestones were wider than normal 185 tyres. So I'm trying to find the dimensions of that tyre to see how they compare to modern 195 tires.

For wheels, what about Lotus wheels? I seem to have seen some MR2 roadsters with Elise wheels. But looking at the dimensions, although the sizes seem perfect as it also uses 15" front and 16" rear with 15x6.5 and 16x8, the offset seems totally off with something like ET10. But I particularly like the Lotus Victory wheels:

(https://www.jonsealsportscars.com/wp-content/uploads/thememakers/cardealer/3/845/main/57bc196a24ea6.jpg)

I'm more fond of tyres on the fatter side than the thin rubber strip look. Both to drive and for looks. Anybody could risk a guess on the tyres in the photo above?

I also like the style on these. Anybody could tell what they are?

(https://statics.wheelwell.com/u/3552af2e-151c-4840-a7d0-7a7f974c6af4.large.jpg?width=900)

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcGKcmnBimk5Fixg08BtvYNyDSpe1zZfWWrpsjCY9aA9RXMJte)


None of them seems to be larger than 16". But I may be wrong.

Quote from: Zens on May 29, 2023, 11:13But I may be wrong.

You are but they do not make the car drive any better.

Best compromise for spirited road is OEM and the car was designed on those rims/tyres. If you want to upgrade then buy same in a lighter design.
As observed Yokohama makes the OEM sizes.

Have fun!

Quote from: Petrus on May 29, 2023, 13:22You are but they do not make the car drive any better.

Which of the wheels above is larger than 16" in your opinion then?

For size, as I mentioned before, I would like to say as close to OEM as possible. ;)

Quote from: Zens on May 29, 2023, 13:46Which of the wheels above is larger than 16" in your opinion then?

ah, the above, no not 17"

If you want to stay close to OEM then 15" pfl 15/16 fl
Whatever you go for, OEM wheels are very good quality and relatively light. You will need to spend móney on premium brand to go lighter.

Quote from: Zens on May 28, 2023, 19:55I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

At the risk of going in circles, I thought I'd post up with my experience today as it is essentially a back to back comparison.

I put the OEM wheels back on over the weekend ahead of covering ~200 miles today of dry UK A&B roads. Generally well surfaced but bumpy in places. This was my first time of running these wheels after 3 years with 16*7 et30 all round.

For reference, my OEM wheels have Toyo T1R tyres (the old type), 225/40/16 on the rear and 195/50/15 on the front.

I'm not going into performance, outright grip, track suitability etc. as this is purely subjective but in terms of 'feel' there is a difference.

With the wider wheels I find turn in is much sharper and gives confidence to really lean on it but, as I mentioned previously, the downside is that it is darty and follows every rut in the road which is tiring on a longer drive. There may be several factors at play - wider tyre, lower offset so the track is essentially wider, lower profile tyres, who knows...

But with the OEM wheels the car just feels more polished. Turn in is more gradual and it feels like it would be more inclined to understeer if really (really) pushed.

Your query was more about wheels but the conversation has naturally drifted to include tyres too. On this note, I recall one of the reasons I stopped using thes wheels was that I really didn't like the grip (or lack of) of the Toyos in the wet.   It maybe the new version is better in this regard.

Quote from: Zens on May 29, 2023, 11:01Thanks. It was brought up the the original 185 Bridgestones were wider than normal 185 tyres. So I'm trying to find the dimensions of that tyre to see how they compare to modern 195 tires.

I have never come across that before. Are you able to reference the source? Is the source accurate?

For clarity, I am not doubting you have read it, but I'm struggling with the idea a 185 tyre is not a 185 tyre.

Quote from: Petrus on May 29, 2023, 15:47ah, the above, no not 17"

If you want to stay close to OEM then 15" pfl 15/16 fl
Whatever you go for, OEM wheels are very good quality and relatively light. You will need to spend móney on premium brand to go lighter.

Yep. The trouble is finding suitable 15/16. I did find some 15x6 or 15x6.5 but they are heavy wheels. From the lightweight wheels the best one can do seems to be 15x7 and 16x7/7.5/8.

And it's now a little bit more difficult as I just found out I can't legally drive Advanti S1s here as they get no type approval. They were my favorite style among the lightweight wheels. I will look into some of the others, such as the OZ Ultraleggera.

Quote from: Ardent on May 29, 2023, 23:21I have never come across that before. Are you able to reference the source? Is the source accurate?

For clarity, I am not doubting you have read it, but I'm struggling with the idea a 185 tyre is not a 185 tyre.

Somebody brought it up on this very thread :) :

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 26, 2023, 12:30The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

I wanted to look deeper into this. Now it might not be the tyre which is wider itself, as he mentions the thread. But I wanted to see if I could find more data, like exact dimensions for tyre and thread, as well as weight and so on.  ;)

Sadly the Volk Racing CE28 is very costly so the best vfm is Enkei RPF1 in 7J and use 195/50 up front. This will as a bonus be just that wee bit less oversteered.

The specified width can vary a bit due to de design of the thread band of the karkass and the design of the profile. Just a few mm. more square edge on either side is times two thus measuring easily almost a 195 instead of 185.

To my no small delight I found that the AD08RS has just about not increased in price over the AD08R 5 years ago whereas the whole market has gone up quite a bit. The AD08RS is imo now quite sharply priced.

Imo lighter wheels are véry much worth it. Even more on real world roads than on track because of the way worse surfaces. Remember that they are not only unsprung weight but also rotating.
If say 1,5 kg does not seem much, set it agains the total weight of the wheel and reallise it is worth several times that. Times 4  8)  The lighter the better contact; so an only 5% lighter wheel makes it 5% easier on the suspension to maintain  same/bettercontact which imo is not negligable. You wíll notice that when emergency braking for a kamikaze cyclist of kid chasing a ball.

Tyres and the wheels are the begin and end all of anything you do with the car: They are the contact with the road. No, OBVIOUSLY (for the reading impaired) it is not he ONLY thing important but heavier wheels and less optimal tyres mean less contact/traction; period. Do not look at pennies. That would be pounds foolish.
I at times still regret not having forked out for CE28s  O:-) because I dó feel the wheel weight difference.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 07:40Somebody brought it up on this very thread :) :

I wanted to look deeper into this. Now it might not be the tyre which is wider itself, as he mentions the thread. But I wanted to see if I could find more data, like exact dimensions for tyre and thread, as well as weight and so on.  ;)

Typically, the only specs published are basic dimensions such as section width, aspect ratio, rim size, overall diameter, and maybe thread depth.

The problem is that most tire companies don't publish any other specs like tread width or even weight. So there can be significant differences between brands and tire models. For example, we run a 195/45-16 front tire, and thread width between different performance tires vary by more than 1/2", and weight by 2 lb.  Thread profiles vary from a very flat tread with squared edges (like the RE040), to a much more rounded profile.

There are obviously many other factors, such as compound, construction, tread profile, etc that impact tire performance.  So one 185/55 may perform very differently from another.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 07:38Yep. The trouble is finding suitable 15/16. I did find some 15x6 or 15x6.5 but they are heavy wheels. From the lightweight wheels the best one can do seems to be 15x7 and 16x7/7.5/8.

And it's now a little bit more difficult as I just found out I can't legally drive Advanti S1s here as they get no type approval. They were my favorite style among the lightweight wheels. I will look into some of the others, such as the OZ Ultraleggera.

 I understand your hesitation with OZ Ultraleggrea as they dont look that great in 15s all around.
However if they are staggered they look phenomenal in the way it matches the cars esthetic to almost like a OEM factory option. Another big selling point is they are a top tier wheel manufacture but selling at a reasonable price which is important because budgeted wheels are worse then OEM quality and are known to come out of balance if you hit some rough patches of roads over time and the finish will not last. Since the Ultraleggera have been around a very long time you can find replacements if the wheel becomes damaged which is cheaper than having them fixed. Some of the more exotic wheels that are very light weight have their own issues on bad roads and replacements are non existent. 

I have them in a 16/17 set up and they are lighter than the FL OEM wheels and if you combined that with tires they come out clearly ahead and close to par with PFL. I also have a lot more tire brand choices with these sizes that I don't have with 15s so it makes up for whatever shortcomings there are with running larger wheel sizes as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 
 Also keep in mind that when you see a good looking wheel it might not translate well with the esthetic of the car so the only way to know is to find pictures of design you like on other owners cars that way you will not regret a wheel choice.

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 14:26as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 

AD08RS are and I rate them as really good stuff.

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 14:26I understand your hesitation with OZ Ultraleggrea as they dont look that great in 15s all around.
However if they are staggered they look phenomenal in the way it matches the cars esthetic to almost like a OEM factory option. Another big selling point is they are a top tier wheel manufacture but selling at a reasonable price which is important because budgeted wheels are worse then OEM quality and are known to come out of balance if you hit some rough patches of roads over time and the finish will not last. Since the Ultraleggera have been around a very long time you can find replacements if the wheel becomes damaged which is cheaper than having them fixed. Some of the more exotic wheels that are very light weight have their own issues on bad roads and replacements are non existent. 

I have them in a 16/17 set up and they are lighter than the FL OEM wheels and if you combined that with tires they come out clearly ahead and close to par with PFL. I also have a lot more tire brand choices with these sizes that I don't have with 15s so it makes up for whatever shortcomings there are with running larger wheel sizes as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 
 Also keep in mind that when you see a good looking wheel it might not translate well with the esthetic of the car so the only way to know is to find pictures of design you like on other owners cars that way you will not regret a wheel choice.

So far it seems the OZ Ultraleggeras are the only high end or lightweight wheels I can buy here with type approval. Or Sparco, which I was told it's also good as it's owned and made by OZ. But they are on the heavier side, being a couple hundred grams heavier than the FL wheels. They are definitely much cheaper than the Ultraleggeras. So I'm not sure that is only because of the weight or also lower quality.

I haven't checked Enkei yet. But by the looks of things, I gather the chances of any non European wheels with type approval is slim around here. So I guess any JDM type wheel is probably out.

As for styling, honestly none of the lightweight wheels I have seen really make me fall in love. The Advanti S1 looks nice in wider specs, but nothing really special in 15x7 or 16x7. The Ultraleggera, Enkei, Ce28 are nothing special either,from a styling point of view. This is in my opinion of course. :)
So I will go with the wheel which I can get type approval with, are lighter than OEM FL and close to the correct size. It seems I won't be able to choose my favorite style.

My motivation for upgrading my wheels is I want to move away from the silver wheels, plus want to try 16" at the rear and try lighter wheels. Combine this with the fact FL wheels are hard to come by here, even if I wanted to go through the trouble of getting some, restoring and painting them a different colour. So it makes sense to just buy aftermarket, so I can have non silver with 16" at the rear, while going lighter weight as well.

The Ultraleggeras look good for the weight as they would be about 5kg lighter all around than the OEM FL wheels. Colour wise they have some options. But not all available in 15" and 16". But at least some non silver options. So far the Ultraleggeras are looking like the most probable. I can afford them, they come with type approval, have similar enough sizes to OEM and are lighter than OEM.

Then maybe Ultraleggeras+ PS3 tyres or Ultraleggeras + AD08RS tyres. Might look into the suggested Hankook as well. But I think this is where the options end. 

Interesting to know you have Ultraleggeras on your car though. Any photos? Are they robust? Many lightweight wheels only have to see a pothole to get bent out of shape. How are the Ultraleggeras? How long have you had them? Needed any replacements or repairs?

Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2023, 08:42Sadly the Volk Racing CE28 is very costly so the best vfm is Enkei RPF1 in 7J and use 195/50 up front. This will as a bonus be just that wee bit less oversteered.

The specified width can vary a bit due to de design of the thread band of the karkass and the design of the profile. Just a few mm. more square edge on either side is times two thus measuring easily almost a 195 instead of 185.

To my no small delight I found that the AD08RS has just about not increased in price over the AD08R 5 years ago whereas the whole market has gone up quite a bit. The AD08RS is imo now quite sharply priced.

Imo lighter wheels are véry much worth it. Even more on real world roads than on track because of the way worse surfaces. Remember that they are not only unsprung weight but also rotating.
If say 1,5 kg does not seem much, set it agains the total weight of the wheel and reallise it is worth several times that. Times 4  8)  The lighter the better contact; so an only 5% lighter wheel makes it 5% easier on the suspension to maintain  same/bettercontact which imo is not negligable. You wíll notice that when emergency braking for a kamikaze cyclist of kid chasing a ball.

Tyres and the wheels are the begin and end all of anything you do with the car: They are the contact with the road. No, OBVIOUSLY (for the reading impaired) it is not he ONLY thing important but heavier wheels and less optimal tyres mean less contact/traction; period. Do not look at pennies. That would be pounds foolish.
I at times still regret not having forked out for CE28s  O:-) because I dó feel the wheel weight difference.

I haven't look at Ce28s. But I suspect no chance of getting them with type approval here. Ultraleggeras are looking promising though.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 16:40I haven't look at Ce28s. But I suspect no chance of getting them with type approval here. Ultraleggeras are looking promising though.

Don´t live there. You should be the closest to that sort of info no?!
Volk Racing are a product of RAY´s Engineering which is quite a renowned company. Thier forged wheels are most likely thé best made you can buy.

Enkei RPF1 should not be a problem surely. Those are proper classics in their own right even and totally thé right rim for a Japanese roadster.

An MR2 for sale over here on Volk CE28 https://www.milanuncios.com/toyota-de-segunda-mano/toyota-mr2-480787726.htm

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 16:38So far it seems the OZ Ultraleggeras are the only high end or lightweight wheels I can buy here with type approval. Or Sparco, which I was told it's also good as it's owned and made by OZ. But they are on the heavier side, being a couple hundred grams heavier than the FL wheels. They are definitely much cheaper than the Ultraleggeras. So I'm not sure that is only because of the weight or also lower quality.

I haven't checked Enkei yet. But by the looks of things, I gather the chances of any non European wheels with type approval is slim around here. So I guess any JDM type wheel is probably out.

As for styling, honestly none of the lightweight wheels I have seen really make me fall in love. The Advanti S1 looks nice in wider specs, but nothing really special in 15x7 or 16x7. The Ultraleggera, Enkei, Ce28 are nothing special either,from a styling point of view. This is in my opinion of course. :)
So I will go with the wheel which I can get type approval with, are lighter than OEM FL and close to the correct size. It seems I won't be able to choose my favorite style.

My motivation for upgrading my wheels is I want to move away from the silver wheels, plus want to try 16" at the rear and try lighter wheels. Combine this with the fact FL wheels are hard to come by here, even if I wanted to go through the trouble of getting some, restoring and painting them a different colour. So it makes sense to just buy aftermarket, so I can have non silver with 16" at the rear, while going lighter weight as well.

The Ultraleggeras look good for the weight as they would be about 5kg lighter all around than the OEM FL wheels. Colour wise they have some options. But not all available in 15" and 16". But at least some non silver options. So far the Ultraleggeras are looking like the most probable. I can afford them, they come with type approval, have similar enough sizes to OEM and are lighter than OEM.

Then maybe Ultraleggeras+ PS3 tyres or Ultraleggeras + AD08RS tyres. Might look into the suggested Hankook as well. But I think this is where the options end. 

Interesting to know you have Ultraleggeras on your car though. Any photos? Are they robust? Many lightweight wheels only have to see a pothole to get bent out of shape. How are the Ultraleggeras? How long have you had them? Needed any replacements or repairs?

This is going to be a long post but I am happy to provide as I know what it is like making a wheel decision because it's hard to take back without a major financial loss.
My dream wheels were the SSR Competition Type C but they are discontinued. I felt those had a look that really matched the car with smaller wheels. The Ultraleggers look best with larger wheels so the spokes are longer.

I know that Sparco has tied up with OZ to make their wheels but yes they are of a lower quality but still good quality however it comes at a cost of adding more weight since they dont use the same manufacturing process to fit in a budget category. The finish might not be as good but at its at price point to represent value better than a lot of other cheap wheel brands that have questionable quality. I find it kind of strange since I think OZ is already good value for a top tier brand.

Some of the Japanese wheels might be good enough to be TUV rated but since they are sold in limited numbers they don't submit them for costly certification. However a wheel that has passed certification is going to be as good as OEM wheel quality which is what you want.

I have had my Ultraleggeras for over 15 years.  They have held up great and I have hit some bad bumps with them which I thought I might have damaged the wheel but they were resilient. When I get them balanced with new tires I keep record of how much weight they need to balance them out and they are true as the day I bought them. The finish has held up great but keep in mind that my car is garaged kept.

Wheels are a personal choice and no amount of convincing will help with that so it's important to get what you feel comfortable with. I built my car to impress other people and the of wheels are a big part of selling the look so it gets lots of compliments for me to enjoy.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8ZcgVTt/0/XL/i-8ZcgVTt-XL.jpg)

Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2023, 17:02Don´t live there. You should be the closest to that sort of info no?!
Volk Racing are a product of RAY´s Engineering which is quite a renowned company. Thier forged wheels are most likely thé best made you can buy.

Enkei RPF1 should not be a problem surely. Those are proper classics in their own right even and totally thé right rim for a Japanese roadster.

An MR2 for sale over here on Volk CE28 https://www.milanuncios.com/toyota-de-segunda-mano/toyota-mr2-480787726.htm

Certainly. I just don't have any official word yet, as I do about the Advanti S1s. I know those are not certified here. Japan Racing don't seem either. At least not for the MR2.

But since I have not been able to find a single local supplier that offers Enkei or Volk Racing with a type certificate, I think this probably means they are not certified either. As Dev mentions, certification is a costly process and Japanese cars are not a big thing around these parts. So it makes sense Advanti, Enkei etc may not be interested in paying the costs for certification just to sell a few wheels. With OZ, since it's European and very well known and regarded all over Europe, it's natural that they would have interest in getting their wheels type approved.

But about Volk Racing, I'm not even sorry. I truly dislike the Ce28 design. Based on how much they cost and my dislike for the style, I would rather go for the OZs. ;) I just dislike wheels that are pushed out. I like wheels that are pushed in, like concave or deep dished.

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 17:13This is going to be a long post but I am happy to provide as I know what it is like making a wheel decision because it's hard to take back without a major financial loss.
My dream wheels were the SSR Competition Type C but they are discontinued. I felt those had a look that really matched the car with smaller wheels. The Ultraleggers look best with larger wheels so the spokes are longer.

I know that Sparco has tied up with OZ to make their wheels but yes they are of a lower quality but still good quality however it comes at a cost of adding more weight since they dont use the same manufacturing process to fit in a budget category. The finish might not be as good but at its at price point to represent value better than a lot of other cheap wheel brands that have questionable quality. I find it kind of strange since I think OZ is already good value for a top tier brand.

Some of the Japanese wheels might be good enough to be TUV rated but since they are sold in limited numbers they don't submit them for costly certification. However a wheel that has passed certification is going to be as good as OEM wheel quality which is what you want.

I have had my Ultraleggeras for over 15 years.  They have held up great and I have hit some bad bumps with them which I thought I might have damaged the wheel but they were resilient. When I get them balanced with new tires I keep record of how much weight they need to balance them out and they are true as the day I bought them. The finish has held up great but keep in mind that my car is garaged kept.

Wheels are a personal choice and no amount of convincing will help with that so it's important to get what you feel comfortable with. I built my car to impress other people and the of wheels are a big part of selling the look so it gets lots of compliments for me to enjoy.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8ZcgVTt/0/XL/i-8ZcgVTt-XL.jpg)

Long post is fine and is appreciate it. :) Thanks for taking the time. I need all info I can get. ;)

Your experience and feedback with the Ultraleggeras sound very encouraging. My car is garaged as well. So I can probably expect similar durability for the finish.

Indeed wheels are very personal. I for example love concave wheels, followed by deep dish, followed by flat, and really don't like wheels that push out, I guess we could call them convex. Makes the wheel look smaller. In a actual small wheel such as 15" or 16" it doesn't help. But for some reason many 15" or 16" 4x100 seem to be convex. Don't know why that is.

The Ultraleggeras fall under flat. But they look good on your car. Although you have 1 size larger than what I would get. Would you have a side shot of your car?

We have similar tastes. One of the reasons why the SSR comps is my regret is because they have the dish and are more sunken but at the same time its not overdone. They are also extremely light weight and forged but even though they are quality wheels they are not as resilient to hard hits like the OZ.   
 The OZ on the other hand was a second choice which I liked but I was pressured by a friend who likes the wheels more than I including the sizes as I originally wanted 15/16. After getting them my friend was right about looking the part. My friend bought the same ones I did a year later when funds permitted.

 Here is another picture.

  (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gTWcdGT/0/4K/i-gTWcdGT-4K.jpg)

Oh BTW since you mentioned it. One of my local friends has the Advanti Storm. I know opinions are opinions but I don't really like them. They look incredibly flat at all viewing angles. I can see that they were going for a Ultraleggera look but you can clearly see the difference. The Utraleggeras have a 3D dimensional pop to them that the Storms or other multi spoke wheels don't have.  I also felt the quality of the storms were good for a budget wheel but thats where it ends.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 19:09I just dislike wheels that are pushed out. I like wheels that are pushed in, like concave or deep dished.

No discussing taste  ;)

I personally réally like the RPF1 as it has both F1 and JDM fame  8)  so befit my Manga themed MR2. 

Whishing you good luck with finding an approved set to your liking and budget. At least the AD08RS are an easy decision  ;)

Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2023, 20:21No discussing taste  ;)

I personally réally like the RPF1 as it has both F1 and JDM fame  8)  so befit my Manga themed MR2. 

Whishing you good luck with finding an approved set to your liking and budget. At least the AD08RS are an easy decision  ;)

I think the RPF1 looks way better than the Ce28. They look specially good on an Elise. Do you have photos of your MR2 with the RPF1?

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 20:16Oh BTW since you mentioned it. One of my local friends has the Advanti Storm. I know opinions are opinions but I don't really like them. They look incredibly flat at all viewing angles. I can see that they were going for a Ultraleggera look but you can clearly see the difference. The Utraleggeras have a 3D dimensional pop to them that the Storms or other multi spoke wheels don't have.  I also felt the quality of the storms were good for a budget wheel but thats where it ends.

That's interesting. In photos they look so dished in. But I think you need at least 8" wide to start seeing this.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 20:29I think the RPF1 looks way better than the Ce28. They look specially good on an Elise. Do you have photos of your MR2 with the RPF1?

Have a look at Southern Belle thread in readers cars section. Plénty there. And more  O:-)
Currently putting it back in legal spec so I can pass periodic inspectiom Today cat (not meaning Hello Kitty) and OEM muffler back on.

Btw are the OZ Rally Racing wheel homologized in Austria?  I think those in white look good on most anything. When I looked at rims they were not difficult to find refurbished. Decided to go JDM because the car is so Japan car.

(https://www.mercadoracing.org/imagenes-anuncios/73/675241/llantas-oz-racing-sparco-15x7-4x100.jpg)

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 19:49We have similar tastes. One of the reasons why the SSR comps is my regret is because they have the dish and are more sunken but at the same time its not overdone. They are also extremely light weight and forged but even though they are quality wheels they are not as resilient to hard hits like the OZ. 
 The OZ on the other hand was a second choice which I liked but I was pressured by a friend who likes the wheels more than I including the sizes as I originally wanted 15/16. After getting them my friend was right about looking the part. My friend bought the same ones I did a year later when funds permitted.

 Here is another picture.

  (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gTWcdGT/0/4K/i-gTWcdGT-4K.jpg)

Looks nice! The 17" really seem to fill the wheel well nicely. Is your car stock height? Hard to see with the high contrast and black car.

But I would like to say with 15/16, for performance and feel.

Maybe this angle helps to see how the wheels fill in the wheel well. I am lowered by about 2 inches.
I did not want to have a 17" wheel for the reasons you stated but it worked out in the end and I highly doubt you will be able tell performance wise from moving the bar 1". The big benefit is it solidifies the look of the car as a whole making it look longer and larger than having the car have the appearance of fancy aftermarket wheels.  As far as feel goes it's all in the tires especially ones that are also top tier with stiff sidewalls and good feedback.
 

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HG9v96Q/0/4K/i-HG9v96Q-4K.jpg)

Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2023, 20:32Have a look at Southern Belle thread in readers cars section. Plénty there. And more  O:-)
Currently putting it back in legal spec so I can pass periodic inspectiom Today cat (not meaning Hello Kitty) and OEM muffler back on.

Btw are the OZ Rally Racing wheel homologized in Austria?  I think those in white look good on most anything. When I looked at rims they were not difficult to find refurbished. Decided to go JDM because the car is so Japan car.

(https://www.mercadoracing.org/imagenes-anuncios/73/675241/llantas-oz-racing-sparco-15x7-4x100.jpg)

I'm not sure those would look good on a MR2. Do you know of any with those wheels? i think they look better in things like hot hatches maybe?

For styling, the Ultraleggeras are more my style than the RPF1s. If it wasn't for the weight it would be way easier to find pleasing wheels. Toyota made the OEM wheels too good!  ;D

For example, I have no idea what the bellow wheels are. I doubt they are top wheels or lightweight. But I like them:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/45/97/1f459736922f3a843404df044f69cb89.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/13/e0/7213e0d55b01ddc0b34b85f74d6d2d19.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XZY7HZA.jpeg)

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 21:05Maybe this angle helps to see how the wheels fill in the wheel well. I am lowered by about 2 inches.
I did not want to have a 17" wheel for the reasons you stated but it worked out in the end and I highly doubt you will be able tell performance wise from moving the bar 1". The big benefit is it solidifies the look of the car as a whole making it look longer and larger than having the car have the appearance of fancy aftermarket wheels.  As far as feel goes it's all in the tires especially ones that are also top tier with stiff sidewalls and good feedback.
 

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HG9v96Q/0/4K/i-HG9v96Q-4K.jpg)

Nice. The lowering also definitely helps to complete the looks.

Quote from: Zens on May 30, 2023, 21:21I'm not sure those would look good on a MR2. Do you know of any with those wheels? i think they look better in things like hot hatches maybe?

Them´s the rally rims of Lancia Delta Integrale and most everything else of the period plus a decade. Whether one líkes them... taste again. They would suit mine. All I need is add ´my´ rally racing number and they´d  even make sense  ;D   Even more if I´d use them as the winter set with M&S rubbers. The snag is that it hardly gets winter conditions here. Just cccóld mornings realy. So better spend some of that cash on #1 son´s idea to 3D print carbonfiber lightweight bits for Belle.

Regarding the Enkei rpf1.
I would consider them a top tier wheel which is light weight and quality. Enkei is involved with F1 racing like OZ and BBS. I would say it is a good looking wheel looking at a picture of them online. Many have this wheel for those reasons I mentioned because they check many boxes except one. They have a esthetic on our car that looks like budgeted wheels. It's not a bad design for another car but for us its unremarkable.

I know it is an unpopular opinion so for those that have them its not personal but it feels like it is a wheel you settle on for its quality and lightness than getting something that has more glitz and glamor. I also happen to like Rays wheels as I think they have that nice esthetic that pops but too expensive.

Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2023, 21:52They have a esthetic on our car that looks like budgeted wheels.

You see the húge advantage in that no?!  :))   

No lock nuts needed   8)

I have taken the angle grinder to the titanium exhaust tip too so it looks like crap instead of valuable ;)
My car is in dire need of a paint job but that budget would go to a lexan wind screen first and imo the band aid on the rear wing is über 8) 

Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2023, 22:38You see the húge advantage in that no?!  :))   

No lock nuts needed   8)

I have taken the angle grinder to the titanium exhaust tip too so it looks like crap instead of valuable ;)
My car is in dire need of a paint job but that budget would go to a lexan wind screen first and imo the band aid on the rear wing is über 8) 

If I was a thief based on looks alone I would end up stealing Rota wheels by mistake. Their knock off wheels actually look good but it's too bad the quality is not there like the real thing. 



 

Have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate how lucky I am, that I like OEM wheels.

Quote from: Ardent on May 30, 2023, 23:57Have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate how lucky I am, that I like OEM wheels.

They are véry good, the right size for the car, quite light and came for free  :))

The looks are spot on imo. I only went for the lighter weight, not to improve the looks- The OEMs look só svelte.


Btw. the rest of the world, the non car enthusiasts, is pretty much oblivious to the designs of wheels. My female acquaintances did not notice the change of wheels. Like it being a small cabrio, think the stickers cheerful, the exhaust note sexy and the rest is technical stuff ;-) 

Gentlemen, you won't get any arguments from me against the OEM 5-spoke wheels. I like them and I think they are not only nice but very fitting to the car. It's the best design ever offered on the roadster in my opinion. Toyota offered some other designs later on, which to my eyes are more fitting to a 4 doors hatchback or saloon. The 5-spoke is spot on! 5-spoke is also my favorite wheel for the Elise. Specially the Victory wheels.

My "conundrum" is that to keep the OEM I would need to refresh them. They have some curb rash and I'm honestly bored of the silver, as my car is also silver. So I would like some contrast on the wheels. But not going with black. To refresh them I would have to have the car up on stilts/holders for a week or so, at a minimum. I have no winter set. The car never saw a winter and never will. ;)

Then I'm also curious to try a 16" rear, as I think I will like the effect of less oversteer and being able to push the car harder in corners etc.

For that reason, makes sense to just buy an aftermarket set and have lighter wheels as a bonus.

I don't want to have the car stand on stilts for a week or so as it waits for the wheels to be ready. Or the trouble which comes to do that. Plus expenses to refresh the wheels, which could go towards a lighter and new wheel set.

But I actually much prefer the OEM 5 spoke design over all the lightweight wheels I have considered. I think the OEM looks better than the OZs, RPF1, Volk and S1. They look purposeful, light, just the business! But it's also a matter of practicality in the process.

Although it has crossed my mind to just buy a full used set of OEM, so I can refresh and repaint them before going on the car, and keeping my current set as a track set with the Toyos TR1, till I kill them on track. But that will just incentivize the "very bad" trackday habit I'm trying to avoid. ;D Trying to keep it under 2 days a year. Don't fancy spending too much money on brakes and tyres yearly.

Congrats Zenns!!!

Quote from: Zens on May 31, 2023, 09:08I will like the effect of less oversteer and being able to push the car harder in corners etc.

Thát.... may need some more thinking  ;)

Have fun!!!

Unless you've already found light wheels at a nice price,  I believe it will cost a LOT for lighter than o/e.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 31, 2023, 09:22Unless you've already found light wheels at a nice price,  I believe it will cost a LOT for lighter than o/e.

It seems the price will be around €1000 for the set with the OZ. Definitely cheaper to refurbish the OEM or even get an extra FL OEM set to refurbish, if I do it myself. The headaches though is a different matter. If I do it myself means time, no long lasting finish most likely, the car standing on stilts for over a week etc. If I have it professionally done, I must find the right place, leave the car there for over a week, and price + extra set of OEM will probably not be much cheaper than going with the OZs.

Quote from: Petrus on May 31, 2023, 09:17Congrats Zenns!!!

Thanks. But for what? Still being lost and not sure how to proceed?  ;D

@Zens said:
To refresh them I would have to have the car up on stilts/holders for a week or so, at a minimum. I have no winter set.
I had my OE wheels powder coated to choice within a day, leaving my car with them while it was done.
A friend recently had his Jaguar wheels refurbished, it took about a week but meanwhile he used a set of replacement wheels and tyres provided by the renovator.
Your location / logistics and available services would determine what is best for you.

Quote from: Zens on May 31, 2023, 09:35Thanks. But for what? Still being lost and not sure how to proceed?  ;D

You´re leaning to refurbished OEM. The week on blocks will get sorted. See above  ;)

I was at the same crossroad years ago to refinish the PFL wheels but I like the look of the FL 15/16 staggered better with the clear coated spokes instead of paint that made the car pop.
At the time the FL factory wheels in very good condition was commanding a high price that made the aftermarket more appealing for reduced weight but in the end the wheels now have worked out better for my esthetic particularly with the lip kit and offsets that even up with the fenders.

Quote from: Zens on May 31, 2023, 09:34It seems the price will be around €1000 for the set with the OZ. Definitely cheaper to refurbish the OEM or even get an extra FL OEM set to refurbish, if I do it myself. The headaches though is a different matter. If I do it myself means time, no long lasting finish most likely, the car standing on stilts for over a week etc. If I have it professionally done, I must find the right place, leave the car there for over a week, and price + extra set of OEM will probably not be much cheaper than going with the OZs.

You could fly to the UK pick up a pair of 16s, return and refurb for way less than 1k. Bearing in mind, if I remember correctly, this is just to see if you prefer 16s.

Have you looked at what the import costs may be?
I have a set of FL 15 Fronts and 16 Rears all shod in Rainsport rubber for sale.
Choices choices

Quote from: Joesson on May 31, 2023, 09:39@Zens said:
To refresh them I would have to have the car up on stilts/holders for a week or so, at a minimum. I have no winter set.
I had my OE wheels powder coated to choice within a day, leaving my car with them while it was done.
A friend recently had his Jaguar wheels refurbished, it took about a week but meanwhile he used a set of replacement wheels and tyres provided by the renovator.
Your location / logistics and available services would determine what is best for you.

I don't know about leaving my "rare" sports car with them. I get images of Ferris Bueller's Day Off in my head. ;D

No chance of a car loaning service here. Places that do this kind of work will be too small for that. But I have contacted 2 people for a quote to do the job. Waiting.

Quote from: Petrus on May 31, 2023, 11:29You´re leaning to refurbished OEM. The week on blocks will get sorted. See above  ;)

As you see by my above post, not even close to be sorted.  :-\ It's looking like it's my only choice. Given I can't even locate a full FL set to buy, so I can send them for refurbishing while the car sits on the current PFL set.

Quote from: Dev on May 31, 2023, 14:21I was at the same crossroad years ago to refinish the PFL wheels but I like the look of the FL 15/16 staggered better with the clear coated spokes instead of paint that made the car pop.
At the time the FL factory wheels in very good condition was commanding a high price that made the aftermarket more appealing for reduced weight but in the end the wheels now have worked out better for my esthetic particularly with the lip kit and offsets that even up with the fenders.

Maybe today, in the UK, you can find the FL set for a good enough price to make it worth it. But here, they are basically unobtanium. So I think it would end up not being much cheaper than buying the OZ.

By the way, are your Ultraleggeras 16x7 and 17x7? I have a dealer here who I was talking to about buying them from telling me to have the 16x7 at the rear I would have to widen the fenders to get type approval. When I brought up the fact the 16" FL OEM is also 16x7 and if the ET was the problem then, he then sidetracked and said yes, the ET being ET37 on the OZ would mean it would stick out 8mm and so would need fender widening . To me sounds like bogus. What do you guys say? I mean, my rear wheels are about 20mm inwards. So 8mm shouldn't be a problem. The FL 16" have the same ET45.

Quote from: Ardent on May 31, 2023, 22:08You could fly to the UK pick up a pair of 16s, return and refurb for way less than 1k. Bearing in mind, if I remember correctly, this is just to see if you prefer 16s.

Have you looked at what the import costs may be?
I have a set of FL 15 Fronts and 16 Rears all shod in Rainsport rubber for sale.
Choices choices

I don't see me flying to the UK to buys wheels. :)

I haven't looked at import costs, but should be bellow 30% total. This is how much it is from the US. Not sure what kind of deal the UK and EU got after Brexit, but I doubt it would be worse than from the US. Shipping is also the concern though.

And I saw your add for the wheels on the for sale section. But you said no posting.  :)

Ask J-Spec for a price delivered. They are good at shipping stuff.

Quote from: Carolyn on June  1, 2023, 11:08Ask J-Spec for a price delivered. They are good at shipping stuff.

Ok, will do. But if I Google J-Spec I get several results, including from Australia, Sweden and Switzerland. :)

But I guess the one you mean is probably in the UK?

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 11:21Ok, will do. But if I Google J-Spec I get several results, including from Australia, Sweden and Switzerland. :)

But I guess the one you mean is probably in the UK?

https://www.j-spec.co.uk/ (https://www.j-spec.co.uk/)

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 11:07Not sure what kind of deal the UK and EU got after Brexit, but I doubt it would be worse than from the US. Shipping is also the concern though.

Well, it is as bad or worse. There are some treaties with the US, none with the UK.

Have you looked at breakers in Spain yet? There should be some wheels available. Want me to have a search?

Several on Wallapop:

https://es.wallapop.com/app/search?keywords=llantas%20mr2&filters_source=search_box&longitude=-3.69196&latitude=40.41956

looks new:

https://es.wallapop.com/item/llantas-860325107


p.s. same seller also offers

https://es.wallapop.com/item/escape-de-toyota-mr2-859797839

no, not homologated but still fun. I would have fiited it if a would not already have the Amuse.

Quote from: Carolyn on June  1, 2023, 11:36https://www.j-spec.co.uk/ (https://www.j-spec.co.uk/)

Thanks!  :)

Quote from: Petrus on June  1, 2023, 11:39Well, it is as bad or worse. There are some treaties with the US, none with the UK.

Have you looked at breakers in Spain yet? There should be some wheels available. Want me to have a search?

Several on Wallapop:

https://es.wallapop.com/app/search?keywords=llantas%20mr2&filters_source=search_box&longitude=-3.69196&latitude=40.41956

looks new:

https://es.wallapop.com/item/llantas-860325107


p.s. same seller also offers

https://es.wallapop.com/item/escape-de-toyota-mr2-859797839

no, not homologated but still fun. I would have fiited it if a would not already have the Amuse.

Really? Oh boy. I haven't bought anything from the UK yet since Brexit.

Thanks for having a look.  :)

I think exhaust I'm fine. I have a nice dual sports exhaust and I quite like the noise it makes.  ;)

The wheel set looks indeed like new. But it seems to be PFL?

Now is the question. Will the most likely more expensive shipping from Spain (slightly further way) still be cheaper than the importing taxes? I would say probably yes. But buying from a private person, they might not be willing to post.  So J-spec might actually end up being more handy. Let's see.

But it's a good idea to look in other parts of the EU. I just thought since the FL cars are rare around here and even in Germany I couldn't find any FL wheels, it would be the same around the EU. UK has the advantage of driving on the same side of the road as Japan. So I have the impression Japanese cars and JDM culture has always been bigger in the Uk than in Europe. Here a Lexus is an exotic luxury car!

The Wallapop ad states willing to ship. Rest is up to ..... you.


Sorry, don´t have all the answers.
Oh, UK is RHD like JDM; that´s one answer  ;)


Whishing you luck and success from here on.

Quote from: Petrus on June  1, 2023, 12:32The Wallapop ad states willing to ship. Rest is up to ..... you.


Sorry, don´t have all the answers.
Oh, UK is RHD like JDM; that´s one answer  ;)


Whishing you luck and success from here on.

Ah ok. I missed the shipping thing. My Spanish probably failed me.  :)

Yes, this is what I meant. UK being RHD like Japan, Japanese cars seem just more popular there than in the rest of Europe. At least this is my impression.

Thanks again for having a look around.

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 11:02Maybe today, in the UK, you can find the FL set for a good enough price to make it worth it. But here, they are basically unobtanium. So I think it would end up not being much cheaper than buying the OZ.

By the way, are your Ultraleggeras 16x7 and 17x7? I have a dealer here who I was talking to about buying them from telling me to have the 16x7 at the rear I would have to widen the fenders to get type approval. When I brought up the fact the 16" FL OEM is also 16x7 and if the ET was the problem then, he then sidetracked and said yes, the ET being ET37 on the OZ would mean it would stick out 8mm and so would need fender widening . To me sounds like bogus. What do you guys say? I mean, my rear wheels are about 20mm inwards. So 8mm shouldn't be a problem. The FL 16" have the same ET45.

Im from the US where we have more options without much taxation of goods.
I have now seen them being sold at a reasonable cost but most of them are not in the best condition as they were 15 years ago. Regardless I am more happy with my decision of blindly trusting a friend when I was having a difficult time making up my mind. I think the Ultraleggeras look the part if you have a lip kit and I do like them over the OEM so there is no going back. I have looked at other wheels since that look better in images like the Rays but they just don't have that eye catching 3D pop of the spoke design when you look at them on other cars especially off angle. Even the knock off wheels that try to mimic the OZ look flat in comparison.

Regarding the offsets my wheels do not stick out of the fender and I never had a rub with being as low as I am. The people that rub generally have too much wheel width and offset combined with higher sidewalls with lowering springs.

Take a look.

IMG_0295.jpg
IMG_0296.jpg 
 


 

Quote from: Dev on June  1, 2023, 15:04Im from the US where we have more options without much taxation of goods.
I have now seen them being sold at a reasonable cost but most of them are not in the best condition as they were 15 years ago. Regardless I am more happy with my decision of blindly trusting a friend when I was having a difficult time making up my mind. I think the Ultraleggeras look the part if you have a lip kit and I do like them over the OEM so there is no going back. I have looked at other wheels since that look better in images like the Rays but they just don't have that eye catching 3D pop of the spoke design when you look at them on other cars especially off angle. Even the knock off wheels that try to mimic the OZ look flat in comparison.

Regarding the offsets my wheels do not stick out of the fender and I never had a rub with being as low as I am. The people that rub generally have too much wheel width and offset combined with higher sidewalls with lowering springs.

Take a look.

IMG_0295.jpg
IMG_0296.jpg   

Thanks. This is the rear 17" wheel? Is it 17x7 ET37? So you still have a inch between tyre and fender?

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 15:40Thanks. This is the rear 17" wheel? Is it 17x7 ET37? So you still have a inch between tyre and fender?

Yes almost an inch and yes it's the 17" wheel with the 37 offset.
 
 I found something for you. The wheel size here is 17/18 but it gives you an idea how they look on a silver car with the side profile.
 
(https://i.ibb.co/1JYssL1/dscn1132s9lx1-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JYssL1)

Quote from: Dev on June  1, 2023, 15:52Yes almost an inch.
 
 I found something for you. The wheel size here is 17/18 but it gives you an idea how they look on a silver car.
 
(https://i.ibb.co/1JYssL1/dscn1132s9lx1-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JYssL1)

Thanks. They look good. :)

If you have an inch, this is basically what I have. So the ET37 vs ET45 doesn't make that much of a difference. You arguably have more than I have. An inch is 25mm. I have 20mm, so slightly under an inch. Is your offset 37?

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 16:02Thanks. They look good. :)

If you have an inch, this is basically what I have. So the ET37 vs ET45 doesn't make that much of a difference. You arguably have more than I have. An inch is 25mm. I have 20mm, so slightly under an inch. Is your offset 37?

Yes the offset is 37. The reason why it may appear equal to yours is primarily because when you lower the car it increases the camber pushing the top of the tire inwards. It's nothing extreme as my camber is -1.9 so even at the stock ride hight it will still tuck in the fender.

Quote from: Dev on June  1, 2023, 16:20Yes the offset is 37. The reason why it may appear equal to yours is primarily because when you lower the car it increases the camber pushing the top of the tire inwards. It's nothing extreme as my camber is -1.9 so even at the stock ride hight it will still tuck in the fender.

Ok, makes sense. But even then, does it make sense to you that at stock height, the rear fender would need widening for the OZ? I have about 20mm from tyre to fender and according to online calculators the OZ would stick out 18mm compared to stock.

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 16:50Ok, makes sense. But even then, does it make sense to you that at stock height, the rear fender would need widening for the OZ? I have about 20mm from tyre to fender and according to online calculators the OZ would stick out 18mm compared to stock.

 I cant say for sure but I think it would still be in the fender with room to spare. 
  Even if you base it on your calculations you would still have 2mm which means it will not be peaking out.
  There are a lot of other factors so the calculations probably will not be exact and in reality it will sit further in.
 We have a national online tire and wheel retailer (TireRack) that will match up the correct wheels for the car based on a number of factors. There are plenty of wheels that will fit that is not on their recommendation list for various reasons like if they stick out of the fender, rubbing or many other safety issues. The OZ wheels is in their recommended list of what fits for an OEM car so I would say it's a safe bet.

Quote from: Dev on June  1, 2023, 15:04The people that rub generally have too much wheel width and offset combined with higher sidewalls with lowering springs.

or simply rág it  8)
I even rubbed the inner wheel well plastic left side both front and rear all OEM in one particular open view corner with perfect camber coming up to the village.
It is two corners up from where charming company stopped recording  ::)  But at least it is horizontal so not complaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97tlU3HqnBM

Quote from: Dev on June  1, 2023, 17:37The OZ wheels is in their recommended list of what fits for an OEM car so I would say it's a safe bet.

Agreed!

Quote from: Zens on June  1, 2023, 11:02Maybe today, in the UK, you can find the FL set for a good enough price to make it worth it. But here, they are basically unobtanium. So I think it would end up not being much cheaper than buying the OZ.

By the way, are your Ultraleggeras 16x7 and 17x7? I have a dealer here who I was talking to about buying them from telling me to have the 16x7 at the rear I would have to widen the fenders to get type approval. When I brought up the fact the 16" FL OEM is also 16x7 and if the ET was the problem then, he then sidetracked and said yes, the ET being ET37 on the OZ would mean it would stick out 8mm and so would need fender widening . To me sounds like bogus. What do you guys say? I mean, my rear wheels are about 20mm inwards. So 8mm shouldn't be a problem. The FL 16" have the same ET45.

 I just re-read this out of interest because there is something odd about what the dealer is saying. 
  Just speculation on my part but I think dealer assumes that the fenders would have to be widened because he is making an unfounded assumption the OEM wheels are at the same level as the fender and buying a negative offset wheel or even a wider wheel will push it out past the fender. He has no way of knowing how the OEM wheel sits relative to the fender without measuring it.

Ok some updates. It's looking more and more like I will get me some rear FL 16" wheels.

For the tyre list, anybody has experience with the Pirelli PZero Nero GT?

Quote from: Zens on June  9, 2023, 23:48Ok some updates. It's looking more and more like I will get me some rear FL 16" wheels.

For the tyre list, anybody has experience with the Pirelli PZero Nero GT?

You continue to come up with strange questions.  According to what I read, it's not made in a 215/45/16,  & not made in 15" at all....

Unless you are familiar with a particular tyre, it's not a risky idea to mix brands on a 2.  The choices are limited for tyres made the 2's FL sizes.  If you want a tyre for regular road use that'll cope with rain, Falken ZE310 & Hankook Ventus K125 fare well in tyre tests.  You might have tyres available on the Continent that we don't have here though?

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 10, 2023, 00:32You continue to come up with strange questions.  According to what I read, it's not made in a 215/45/16,  & not made in 15" at all....

Unless you are familiar with a particular tyre, it's not a risky idea to mix brands on a 2.  The choices are limited for tyres made the 2's FL sizes.  If you want a tyre for regular road use that'll cope with rain, Falken ZE310 & Hankook Ventus K125 fare well in tyre tests.  You might have tyres available on the Continent that we don't have here though?

Hmm, I had taken a quick look, the moment I found out about them and it seems it was available in 185/55/15 and 215/45/16. But it was a very quick look at a single retailer online configurator, as at this point I'm basically looking for excuses not to buy either the Michelin or the Yoko AD08RS.

But please do tell about the strange questions I've been asking. If I'm ware of what is strange I might learn from it. I'm always on the lookout for learning opportunities. :)

Quote from: Zens on June 10, 2023, 08:48as at this point I'm basically looking for excuses not to buy either the Michelin or the Yoko AD08RS.

Why? Earlier this week I had some fun putting the hammer down in the rain here. The yearly inspection means I have a ceteris paribus befor & after & back agian and this year it was with proper rain. The AD08RS is súch a predictable tyre with for a summer tyre surprising wet grip. Imo it is thé best compromise for this car, in the correct size and at a reasonable (álmost ore Covid) price.

An alternative size often overlooked for the FL 16" rear is 205/45-16, which seems to be a pretty common size.  They will be the same width as the earlier 15" rear and work fine.

Quote from: Zens on June 10, 2023, 08:48Hmm, I had taken a quick look, the moment I found out about them and it seems it was available in 185/55/15 and 215/45/16. But it was a very quick look at a single retailer online configurator, as at this point I'm basically looking for excuses not to buy either the Michelin or the Yoko AD08RS.

But please do tell about the strange questions I've been asking. If I'm ware of what is strange I might learn from it. I'm always on the lookout for learning opportunities. :)

The 'strange question' was with regard to a tyre that you can't get in the rights sizes....I looked up a Pirelli listing.  If you have one in Austrian or German that says different....???

Iain on here likes his Michelin PS3.  I went by Tyre Tests in choosing.  The Michelin is an old tyre, & there was some crossover in time with the Hankook K125 in tests. The Hankook was rated better, in some tests finished rated 1st. And here anyway, it's cheaper than the Yoko & the PS3.

About older and newer designs it is worth noting that our MR2 is an older car which off factory came with quite stiff, nowadays very stiff, sidewalls. Imo the car benefits from stiffer sideall tyres.

Quote from: Petrus on June 11, 2023, 12:20About older and newer designs it is worth noting that our MR2 is an older car which off factory came with quite stiff, nowadays very stiff, sidewalls. Imo the car benefits from stiffer sideall tyres.

 Many of these tire reviews makes one tire better for certain attributes except one which is being a responsive tire with feel.
 I use to despise Michelin tires because they are overpriced and do not test very well compared to other in terms of grip as they are equal or less then. 
 Numbers are important for racing I suppose to get whatever advantage to reduce lap times but for the street I want a responsive tire with lots of feel. 
I found the budget performance tires lack that and that is what you pay for with a top tier brand of tire particularly the stiff responsive ride quality.
 The tires I have now are stiff and are compared to Michelins for its responsive handling. More than offset, tire sizes and other things, the tires are number one when it comes to fun to drive.

Quote from: Dev on June 11, 2023, 15:16the tires are number one when it comes to fun to drive.

They are the contact with the road.
The construction of the thread band and the sidewalls are the begin and end all of the feed back and responsiveness.
The rubber compound same for the traction available.

More modern cars have differnet geometry and suspensions which go well with larger diameter wheels and lower, more flexibel sidewalls which have been developed in cooperation.

Ditto modern tyres by coïncidence available in sizes suiteable for ours do not befit it.

What we want is basically a two decades old construction with a modern but none too eco rubber compound. Many modern compounds are compromised for spirited use because they need to be more economic and more fuel efficient.

The tread profile design is also a tricky subject because the noise the tyres prodruce has become higher on the priorities list, compromising agaín traction.

Moral being AGAÏN that the marketing (and sadly motoring press, incl. social media, too) must be read with care and understanding of modern requirements.

Quote from: Petrus on June 11, 2023, 15:34They are the contact with the road.
The construction of the thread band and the sidewalls are the begin and end all of the feed back and responsiveness.
The rubber compound same for the traction available.

More modern cars have differnet geometry and suspensions which go well with larger diameter wheels and lower, more flexibel sidewalls which have been developed in cooperation.

Ditto modern tyres by coïncidence available in sizes suiteable for ours do not befit it.

What we want is basically a two decades old construction with a modern but none too eco rubber compound. Many modern compounds are compromised for spirited use because they need to be more economic and more fuel efficient.

The tread profile design is also a tricky subject because the noise the tyres prodruce has become higher on the priorities list, compromising agaín traction.

Moral being AGAÏN that the marketing (and sadly motoring press, incl. social media, too) must be read with care and understanding of modern requirements.

 Yes exactly. We have to compromise for other peoples comfort for the big wheel look for modern cars.
 I remember a time when those that bought 17 and 18 inch wheels were known for poor road comfort so I think they solved that problem with soft tires and probably saved money in the process. It is said that run flat tires are very stiff and are preferred for their feel even though they weigh more.
 Some of the newer performance tires start at 18" wheel sizes these days and no longer make sizes for 17" and down. Times have changed where we have been relegated to limited availability. 






 

Quote from: Dev on June 11, 2023, 15:46Times have changed where we have been relegated to limited availability. 

Our car (and it´s bretheren from othere brands) was already a niche product when it came out thus the few tyres which áre availeble are often intended for módern compact cars which are significantly heavierthan our little spiders ánd are expected to silently and economically run for a gazillion kms.

Quote from: Petrus on June 10, 2023, 10:09Why? Earlier this week I had some fun putting the hammer down in the rain here. The yearly inspection means I have a ceteris paribus befor & after & back agian and this year it was with proper rain. The AD08RS is súch a predictable tyre with for a summer tyre surprising wet grip. Imo it is thé best compromise for this car, in the correct size and at a reasonable (álmost ore Covid) price.

Maybe it came out wrong. What I meant is, at this point I have pretty much decided to buy either the Yoko or the Michelin. So I'm not really looking to deep into other options. So when I found out about the Pirelli, I looked into it real quick. Basically just to see how it compares in price and if anybody has experience with it. But if no other sway me away, it will be either the Yoko or Michelin.

As of note, I have zero interest if the tyre is good for winter or on the wet. Car will never be used in winter and if it's wet, the car stays at home. So I'm basically looking for great good weather street tyres. That work well on the dry and above 10 degrees Celsius. :)

So basically best dry weather tyres for the road, which can also do well on the track a few times a year. ;)

Quote from: Beachbum957 on June 10, 2023, 11:18An alternative size often overlooked for the FL 16" rear is 205/45-16, which seems to be a pretty common size.  They will be the same width as the earlier 15" rear and work fine.

I also saw many going for 225/45/16. And even 225/50/16. Any experience with these sizes on the FL wheels?

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 11, 2023, 11:08The 'strange question' was with regard to a tyre that you can't get in the rights sizes....I looked up a Pirelli listing.  If you have one in Austrian or German that says different....???

Iain on here likes his Michelin PS3.  I went by Tyre Tests in choosing.  The Michelin is an old tyre, & there was some crossover in time with the Hankook K125 in tests. The Hankook was rated better, in some tests finished rated 1st. And here anyway, it's cheaper than the Yoko & the PS3.

Ok, but that would be just one strange question. I aksed because you say I continue to come up with strange questions. Which would mean there were more. :)

How stiff is the K125 side walls compared to the AD08RS?

Quote from: Petrus on June 11, 2023, 12:20About older and newer designs it is worth noting that our MR2 is an older car which off factory came with quite stiff, nowadays very stiff, sidewalls. Imo the car benefits from stiffer sideall tyres.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. I brought it up earlier on the thread. Maybe older designs are more desiged for the cars of the time. Like our cars.

Quote from: Dev on June 11, 2023, 15:16Many of these tire reviews makes one tire better for certain attributes except one which is being a responsive tire with feel.
 I use to despise Michelin tires because they are overpriced and do not test very well compared to other in terms of grip as they are equal or less then. 
 Numbers are important for racing I suppose to get whatever advantage to reduce lap times but for the street I want a responsive tire with lots of feel. 
I found the budget performance tires lack that and that is what you pay for with a top tier brand of tire particularly the stiff responsive ride quality.
 The tires I have now are stiff and are compared to Michelins for its responsive handling. More than offset, tire sizes and other things, the tires are number one when it comes to fun to drive.

What tyres are you running? Sorry if you already mentioned it. But I only remember you run 17" OZ Ultraleggeras. :)

Quote from: Petrus on June 11, 2023, 15:52Our car (and it´s bretheren from othere brands) was already a niche product when it came out thus the few tyres which áre availeble are often intended for módern compact cars which are significantly heavierthan our little spiders ánd are expected to silently and economically run for a gazillion kms.

But how do the Elise S1 guys do? The sizes are almost identical right? They are all on the Yokos, PS3, K125 etc too I guess?

Quote from: Zens on June 11, 2023, 21:25Ok, but that would be just one strange question. I aksed because you say I continue to come up with strange questions. Which would mean there were more. :)

How stiff is the K125 side walls compared to the AD08RS?

I'm not going to read through 6 pages, - I just thought your thinking was a bit strange, - maybe only once.

I don't know the answer re sidewall stiffness, - I'd guess the Yoko probably.

Tyre manufacturers I'm sure would have some criteria for making tyres with varying degrees of sidewall stiffness, but I've not seen reference to this feature in any specification, review or advertising.
I do remember cross ply tyres when they were the norm and the first tyres I recall that demonstrated the difference between cross ply and radial ply tyres were Michelin that I had fitted to my Beetle in the '60's.
In comparison the radials looked as though they were under inflated due to the more flexible side walls

To offer an alternative suggestion to the PFL wheels, I recently bought a set of motegi racing mr146 wheels in 15x8 - et35 front and et28 rear. Fitment is good and I run 205/50 front, 225/45 rear. They're light, imo look good and give me good support for wider rubber.

Quote from: Joesson on June 11, 2023, 22:41I do remember cross ply tyres when they were the norm and the first tyres I recall that demonstrated the difference between cross ply and radial ply tyres were Michelin

Oh mán. When I was in autotechnical engineering uni this was still a big thing. Soon got ´complicated´ developments in new synthetic materials. As I started racing it remained a big thing for me basically till today. During áll of that time one red thread were sidecars and .. now thát makes both cars and motorcycles look simple  ::)  Quick and dirty the traditional ones need crossply with a car type flat thread  ;)
Like black magic that, tyres  8)

Quote from: Zens on June 11, 2023, 21:32What tyres are you running? Sorry if you already mentioned it. But I only remember you run 17" OZ Ultraleggeras. :)

 I am from the US so I get tires that are not available in your market. The tires I have are relabeled Bridgestone Adrenalin RE003 which is are only available in the Asian and Australian market. If they brought those tires in your market they would  probably gain the same cult status as the relabeled ones in my market.
I have gone though many sets of tires for my car with disappointing results mostly from the popular middle tier brands. This set feels exactly like the stiffness of the OEM tires but with more grip.

Quote from: Joesson on June 11, 2023, 22:41Tyre manufacturers I'm sure would have some criteria for making tyres with varying degrees of sidewall stiffness, but I've not seen reference to this feature in any specification, review or advertising.
I do remember cross ply tyres when they were the norm and the first tyres I recall that demonstrated the difference between cross ply and radial ply tyres were Michelin that I had fitted to my Beetle in the '60's.
In comparison the radials looked as though they were under inflated due to the more flexible side walls

I found a review that address the shortcoming of many online reviews. I wish other tire reviews would comment on this aspect because I think it's the most important.
 If they discontinue the Firestone firehawk I will pay for premium for top tier tires like Bridgestone or Michelin that are known to have responsive feel which is probably why they cost a premium. Nothing worse than being married to lack luster tires waiting to try something else and then falling in the same trap with more reviews.

https://tirepost.com/2022/02/23/firestone-firehawk-indy-500-vs-michelin-pilot-super-sport/
 
 

Quote from: leomrs on June 12, 2023, 00:18To offer an alternative suggestion to the PFL wheels, I recently bought a set of motegi racing mr146 wheels in 15x8 - et35 front and et28 rear. Fitment is good and I run 205/50 front, 225/45 rear. They're light, imo look good and give me good support for wider rubber.

For now I would like to go with 16" at the rear. And nothing heavier than OEM. So I have decided I will try to get some FL rear wheels. But thanks for the suggestion just the same. :)

Quote from: Dev on June 12, 2023, 04:29I am from the US so I get tires that are not available in your market. The tires I have are relabeled Bridgestone Adrenalin RE003 which is are only available in the Asian and Australian market. If they brought those tires in your market they would  probably gain the same cult status as the relabeled ones in my market.
I have gone though many sets of tires for my car with disappointing results mostly from the popular middle tier brands. This set feels exactly like the stiffness of the OEM tires but with more grip.

So you are running Firehawk Indy 500? Have you any experience with the PS3, AD08RS and Hankook mentioned here?

Quote from: Dev on June 12, 2023, 04:42I found a review that address the shortcoming of many online reviews. I wish other tire reviews would comment on this aspect because I think it's the most important.
 If they discontinue the Firestone firehawk I will pay for premium for top tier tires like Bridgestone or Michelin that are known to have responsive feel which is probably why they cost a premium. Nothing worse than being married to lack luster tires waiting to try something else and then falling in the same trap with more reviews.

https://tirepost.com/2022/02/23/firestone-firehawk-indy-500-vs-michelin-pilot-super-sport/
 
 

Nice site. Good read. Looked for reviews on the PS3. Only found a Pilot Sport vs Pilot Supersport comparision.

Quote from: leomrs on June 12, 2023, 00:18To offer an alternative suggestion to the PFL wheels, I recently bought a set of motegi racing mr146 wheels in 15x8 - et35 front and et28 rear. Fitment is good and I run 205/50 front, 225/45 rear. They're light, imo look good and give me good support for wider rubber.

The experienced on here (before my time) say 205  nullifies the steering feel.  And 205 is under the width range for an 8j wheel.  ??? 

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 12, 2023, 08:39The experienced on here (before my time) say 205  nullifies the steering feel.  And 205 is under the width range for an 8j wheel.  ??? 

Nuff said.

I am on 195 front because the slightly reduced understeer is to my tatse but the 185 steers more directly, period.

From factory the PFL mr2 came with Bridgestone (Potenza i think) I do remember noting the sidewalls were very stiff compared to other tyres of that size.
I have a customer with at 2015 Golf that always had Bridgestones fitted S001 I think.
When we changed to Pirelli the sidewalls were much softer (Much easier to fit too).
The MK2 MR2 came with Yokohama from factory and again a really hard side wall.

Quote from: Petrus on June 12, 2023, 09:21Nuff said.

I am on 195 front because the slightly reduced understeer is to my tatse but the 185 steers more directly, period.

It's a good thing that understeering in a RWD car is a whole'nother ballgame. Much less objectionable/annoying than with FWD. With the MR2 and the Toyos I have, I haven't found it bad, and I press on!  >:D

But how much less directly the 195s steer in your opinion? I know. Loaded question as it's very dificult to quantify and probably subjective. But I love "listening" to you gents here, with lots more experience in the spyder than I.  :)

195 is the widest I will go anyhow.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 07:36So you are running Firehawk Indy 500? Have you any experience with the PS3, AD08RS and Hankook mentioned here?

Yes Indy 500 and they are wonderful. 
I have experienced Hankook tires in the past not what is currently selling. I found them to have softer response than OEM. I have asked others that have the newer Hankook tires about the response and they said they were similar to the discontinued ones that I once had and in general a lot of grip but not enough feel.
The only Yokohama tires that I have experienced is the OEM tire. Like the OEM Bridgestones that came with the FL car they were very responsive and had great feel.
I would consider Yokohama to be a top tier manufacture of tires but they can have some lousy offerings.
Check out this recent post and you will see exactly what I mean.
https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/tire-review-advan-fleva-are-shyte.161136/#post-2203190 (https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/tire-review-advan-fleva-are-shyte.161136/#post-2203190)

One of the worst tires that Yokohama put out with the ES100 which has long been discontinued. I helped a friend with a Miata and gave him some bad advice on purchasing this tire based on my OEM Yokohama experience and they were mush.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 07:37Nice site. Good read. Looked for reviews on the PS3. Only found a Pilot Sport vs Pilot Supersport comparision.

 From what I heard is the Pilot Sport series traditionally have the stiffer feel and that is the same with the Bridgestone and Yokohama tires with the 0 prefix in the model number. Oddly enough the OEM PFL tires also had the 0 prefix. 

The original poster of fleva are shyte is countered by those that commented.

I have them on my daily and now my 2.

Each to their own. But loving mine.
My new, go to tyre.

For me, it works as a complete package.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 16:25It's a good thing that understeering in a RWD car is a whole'nother ballgame. Much less objectionable/annoying than with FWD. With the MR2 and the Toyos I have, I haven't found it bad, and I press on!  >:D

But how much less directly the 195s steer in your opinion? I know. Loaded question as it's very dificult to quantify and probably subjective. But I love "listening" to you gents here, with lots more experience in the spyder than I.  :)

195 is the widest I will go anyhow.

´ís´ less objectionable is a matter of preference. I prefer less of it. Understeer is per definition more centrifugal force than traction with the traction not coping with the directional change indicated by the steering wheel = loss of feel.
A great many people líke the initial understeer and mostly neutral rest. For mé the corner entry is when I want to get the most accurate feed back about the traction available.
I also deleted the power steering for same reason mind.
Also the TRD Sportivo spring rate rear is 200% of the front whereas OEM (and the after market) has the rear springs 150% of front. This speeds up the response of the rear suspension to directional changes at the front. Same thing: Many find it more twitchy, some love the quicker response, quicker steering at the rear. Me the latter  ;)

About 195 I expressed myself incorrectly: The slightly less direct response is not in the 195 width but in the slightly higher sidewall of a 195/55 vs a 185/55. The effect of that is akin a softer sidewall. Just that bit slower.
The 195 having just that bit better traction means also better directional tracking. Will go 195/50 next set. Has the correct load index too!
Hopefully just as quick responding as the 185 but with the better tracking of 195 width.

Quote from: Ardent on June 12, 2023, 23:17For me, it works as a complete package.

Véry curious about what you think of mine  ;)

Quote from: Ardent on June 12, 2023, 23:17The original poster of fleva are shyte is countered by those that commented.

Which is why I don't look at individual's opinions.   

A few years ago when numerous people were using the original AD08's it was obvious that they were the dry grip leaders.  Then track users who wore them out tried the ADO8RS & reported a big change.  So they were collective opinions, & so therefore believable.

The Fleva has featured in Tests & not fared well, so I didn't consider them.

I know that reviews are flawed as well as user opinions because they can very greatly and that is the trap I have fallen into by trusting both blindly. You can almost never know what is a good choice for your needs. I have read Fleva was soft elsewhere so that post confirmed some of the other opinions on them. For some people it's not important and I am sure they have other attributes that make them good for people that like them. As long as it makes people happy that's all that matters.

What has worked for me is an overwhelming consensus if a tire has a stiff response or not. Thats how I found the tires I currently have and I got exactly what I wanted. I have asked others with tires they like how is the stiffness and they would say they are comfortable and just right for them for the kind of setup and driving style that suits them so there is nothing wrong with that but I know they will be tires I would cross off my list. The downside with hard tires is, it can be uncomfortable over rough roads which is a drawback but that does not bother me.  I can literally feel my suspension working on smooth roads.

The number one priority for me is that a tyre is predictable.
Woul dalmost prefer mediocre grip over good grip if not for stopping distance whuch for me is the major concern with traction, not performance.
Thén comes the directness, the feedback, ´stiffness´.

Mind, that is my fñun car.
For the more user friendly daily I shift comfort higher up to álmost stopping distance. Never mind sloppy ´navigating´.

WHen I firt got my little spider it was on no ´El Cheapo´ no-grip specials. I left them on to get t know the peculiarities of the car at lower speeds. Added over spec air and they ´improved´ in meign mores ersposnive, more predictable and... even less grip- The perfect learner set  8)
A few weeks later on a chilly but dry morning, going rather sideways though a local corner, the resident female observed the car (and I) could do with an upgrade so that was thát expense sorted.
Meanwhile she has paid for a new set of rears even.
My current set of fronts is cycled out but still quite good profile. Loath to refresh them but there is no escaping. On the bright side I can go to the lower ones yeahhhhh.
Btw. quite content with the new S version. Maybe, finger crossed, they will have more life cycles  ;)

Quote from: Dev on June 12, 2023, 16:39From what I heard is the Pilot Sport series traditionally have the stiffer feel and that is the same with the Bridgestone and Yokohama tires with the 0 prefix in the model number. Oddly enough the OEM PFL tires also had the 0 prefix. 

As this is my fun car and I don't daily drive it, I think stiff wall tyres is the way to go.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 00:40A few years ago when numerous people were using the original AD08's it was obvious that they were the dry grip leaders.  Then track users who wore them out tried the ADO8RS & reported a big change.  So they were collective opinions, & so therefore believable.

The big change was for the better I hope?

Quote from: Petrus on June 12, 2023, 23:32´ís´ less objectionable is a matter of preference. I prefer less of it. Understeer is per definition more centrifugal force than traction with the traction not coping with the directional change indicated by the steering wheel = loss of feel.
A great many people líke the initial understeer and mostly neutral rest. For mé the corner entry is when I want to get the most accurate feed back about the traction available.
I also deleted the power steering for same reason mind.
Also the TRD Sportivo spring rate rear is 200% of the front whereas OEM (and the after market) has the rear springs 150% of front. This speeds up the response of the rear suspension to directional changes at the front. Same thing: Many find it more twitchy, some love the quicker response, quicker steering at the rear. Me the latter  ;)

About 195 I expressed myself incorrectly: The slightly less direct response is not in the 195 width but in the slightly higher sidewall of a 195/55 vs a 185/55. The effect of that is akin a softer sidewall. Just that bit slower.
The 195 having just that bit better traction means also better directional tracking. Will go 195/50 next set. Has the correct load index too!
Hopefully just as quick responding as the 185 but with the better tracking of 195 width.

Understeer also can have a positive effect, specially for rear mid engine. But obviously too much of it is not good, as isn't too much oversteer. All I was saying is that the understeering I'm getting on stock suspension, stock PFL wheels and Toyo Proxe T1R tyres is not counterproductive. I can still push the car and it will still do what I want or ask of it. The understeering hasn't gotten in the way yet. But this is on dry, good weather only. If it's cold or wet, the MR2 stays home. :)

Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:08The big change was for the better I hope?

No.  I haven't driven either of them, but the original was high-grip, not great in wet & especially cold.  The new one has an 'eco' tag I believe.  It's no longer as grippy.  Unless you go to a semi-competition tyre you won't get old AD08 grip, I believe.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:18Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

I know (obviously); say 5 mm. higher/lower sidewall. Should also rub just a bit less  ;)
Just dropped by at the tyre blokes 1 km down the road.
Íf they can get them and make me a nice price, hope to try the rubbers on the Portugal trip next week.

@RS vs R my experience on the road is that the grip of new RSs is better than that of cycled out but not quite worn out Rs.
Cannot tell about the max. traction. They are still  :o  (better than the current fronts) and séém to hook up earlier.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:18Understeer also can have a positive effect, specially for rear mid engine. But obviously too much of it is not good, as isn't too much oversteer. All I was saying is that the understeering I'm getting on stock suspension, stock PFL wheels and Toyo Proxe T1R tyres is not counterproductive. I can still push the car and it will still do what I want or ask of it. The understeering hasn't gotten in the way yet. But this is on dry, good weather only. If it's cold or wet, the MR2 stays home. :)

Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

Not getting involved too much, but I agree completely with understeer being useful in a MR car. More so than FWD anyway.

I've had the car set up to be on the understeer side of neutral. It gives positive initial turn in, then you can let the car wash out on exit after getting on the power early. You can judge exit speed by feel through the wheel. I've found this more consistent, kinder on rear tyres, and easier to manage tyre temps on track, but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 11:42but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

You naíled it! Thanks.

Also as mine had LSD set the Whitelines one hole stiffer rear (vs front) than the TRD Sportivo equivalents.

The imo ónly B side is taking a bit mor care with lifting the loud pedal in corners which is a bad idea anyway unless you wánt the rear to step out and then slide it. The handbrake sadly being an bit reliable for that: Living in proper mountains the interior local roads are só much fun but going down the hairpins are tricky with understeer and I am too chicken to gás it enough when the front starts to wash out with a ravine behind a low wall in front :-*

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 11:19No.  I haven't driven either of them, but the original was high-grip, not great in wet & especially cold.  The new one has an 'eco' tag I believe.  It's no longer as grippy.  Unless you go to a semi-competition tyre you won't get old AD08 grip, I believe.

But I guess still as stiff?

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 11:42Not getting involved too much, but I agree completely with understeer being useful in a MR car. More so than FWD anyway.

I've had the car set up to be on the understeer side of neutral. It gives positive initial turn in, then you can let the car wash out on exit after getting on the power early. You can judge exit speed by feel through the wheel. I've found this more consistent, kinder on rear tyres, and easier to manage tyre temps on track, but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

Why the hesitation in getting involved? :)

Interesting input none the less. ;)

Quote from: Petrus on June 13, 2023, 11:37I know (obviously); say 5 mm. higher/lower sidewall. Should also rub just a bit less  ;)
Just dropped by at the tyre blokes 1 km down the road.
Íf they can get them and make me a nice price, hope to try the rubbers on the Portugal trip next week.

@RS vs R my experience on the road is that the grip of new RSs is better than that of cycled out but not quite worn out Rs.
Cannot tell about the max. traction. They are still  :o  (better than the current fronts) and séém to hook up earlier.

Good to know. Well, I guess regardless of how the new RS are, we are stuck with them if one wants stiff side walls but OEM PFL sizes. But they still seem to be a great option.

So, this is what I have gathered so far from the conversations here, plus researching online regarding tyre options.

If I want to stay PFL:

• Yoko AD08RS. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. Seems to be nicely stiff and a great tyre. Most expensive of the bunch.
• Hankook Ventus prime K125. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. But doesn't seem to be as stiff. But is it soft? Much cheaper than the AD08RS though.
• Falken ZIEX ZE310 Ecorun. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. But seem on the softer side? Similar prices to the Hankook.

FL only:

• Michelin Pilot Sport 3. Have to live with 195/50 front. Correct 215/45/16 for the rear. Stiff and good reputation. Not much cheaper than AD08RS.

Wild Card:

• Uniroyal Rainsport 5. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. I read good reviews on them. Price seems not different than Hanook or Falken. But they seem to be stiffer. Saw a recommendation for them if one wants a tyre for both, daily driving and light track days. Never heard of Uniroyal. But if I get a second set of wheels for track only, I was thinking about them as a cheaper option for stiffer track tyres. As they seem to be stiffer than the other cheaper options (Falken, Hankook) but cheaper than PS3 and AD08RS. So would spare my more expensive tyres on the track, while still being fun on the track, according to some reports. Basically AD08RS or PS3 for the road fun. Rainsport 5 for track fun. Anybody tried them?

It would have to be light track days in anything less than quite damp conditions with Rainsports on.

They will overheat and melt with much of any spirited driving on a dry, patchy or 'a bit' damp track. However they are genuinely one of the best affordable road legal tyres on a very wet track (although not a patch on full wets).

On a scale of 0-10 where 0 is completely dry, 5 is the point where there its getting hard to see an obvious dry line, and 10 is the point where the red flags are out - I wouldn't be considering Rainsports until 6 or 7. 

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:59But I guess still as stiff?

and in case of doubt rub´m lightly with

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fqtxasset.com%2F2017-01%2FViagra_Tablet.jpg%3FPUIxN2wDBThwjSCE4aCfij89AKfDJR27&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d756b28006ad7c558d03c4c128f29a708d103c7778ec2178150fcdadf076d5c7&ipo=images)

Read tests read tests read tests.  The only thing that Rainsport test well at is aquaplaning resistance.  The track guys that can afford two sets of tyres use them in the wet only.  K125 are not soft.  Maybe not as stiff as ADO8RS.  More agile than the Falken.  Both available in pfl & FL sizes.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 13:02It would have to be light track days in anything less than quite damp conditions with Rainsports on.

They will overheat and melt with much of any spirited driving on a dry, patchy or 'a bit' damp track. However they are genuinely one of the best affordable road legal tyres on a very wet track (although not a patch on full wets).

On a scale of 0-10 where 0 is completely dry, 5 is the point where there its getting hard to see an obvious dry line, and 10 is the point where the red flags are out - I wouldn't be considering Rainsports until 6 or 7. 

Thanks! Great to know. I guess Rainsports are out then. Somebody posted them as alternative to the Toyos TR1s saying the Rainsport is much better and that they are great for daily and light track days. Didn't mention anything about wet. Then I googled and found some positive feedback about them. Oh well, They are out.

Any good tyres for the track which won't brake the bank? Since I will burn them around the track I don't feel like paying AD08RS or PS3 money for them. But it needs to be road legal tyres as I need to drive to the track on them. :)

Rainsports have a soft sidewall, ideal for wet tracks but yes in the dry they get smashed pretty quickly.
Fantastic tyre for the road though.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 13:59Read tests read tests read tests.  The only thing that Rainsport test well at is aquaplaning resistance.  The track guys that can afford two sets of tyres use them in the wet only.  K125 are not soft.  Maybe not as stiff as ADO8RS.  More agile than the Falken.  Both available in pfl & FL sizes.

The Falken I heard are pretty soft. The K125 are closer to the Falken or closer to the AD08RS? The K125 are cheap enough for a track set, if they are any good for that.

Somewhere in my search I heard some Kumhos mentioned here and there. Should I pay any attention to them?

By the way, are the Toyo T1Rrs considered soft?

Old Toyo T1R are soft. Newer TR1 are firmer.  Instead of asking individual's opinions READ TESTS

You are not going to get a road tyre that is good for track use.  Demands are different.

I think I'm done on this....

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 14:50Thanks! Great to know. I guess Rainsports are out then. Somebody posted them as alternative to the Toyos TR1s saying the Rainsport is much better and that they are great for daily and light track days. Didn't mention anything about wet. Then I googled and found some positive feedback about them. Oh well, They are out.

Any good tyres for the track which won't brake the bank? Since I will burn them around the track I don't feel like paying AD08RS or PS3 money for them. But it needs to be road legal tyres as I need to drive to the track on them. :)

To be honest if it's wet enough to consider Rainsports, it's got the point the driver matters more than the tyre. TR1 is capable but again wet only - like Rainsports they'll melt to nothing in 30 laps in the dry.

Is your car road first, track second... Or track first, road second?

There is a level of difference between an affordable road tyre that can cope on track (ie AD08, NS2R, 595R, etc), versus an affordable track tyre you can drive home with (ie, AD052, AR1, 888R, etc). Both serve different functions.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 15:30Old Toyo T1R are soft. Newer TR1 are firmer.  Instead of asking individual's opinions READ TESTS

You are not going to get a road tyre that is good for track use.  Demands are different.

I think I'm done on this....

I am reading tests and reviews. But asking here as well means results with our cars, which I find important. Besides I'm always skeptical of reviews. In the end of the day they are also opinions and like car reviews, results can vary depending on what they are trying to sell and sponsors, if you know what I mean. :) And as brought up here already. most reviews don't mention things like side wall stiffness. I also think opinions here, a closed community with an interest in the same use case, in this case, the MR2, counts just as much as a review to be honest. :)

So IMO, the best is to combine all the feedback from different sources to make your opinion.

Lastly, I'm aware I won't find a road tyre which is a full on performer on the track. So I know we would be talking about compromises. And there are many people who do track days on their road tyres. I'm not going to turn my car into a dedicated track car and neither will I be on the track all the time or expect full on track performance. I'm just trying to have a bit of fun a few weekends a year.;)  So again, looking for the best compromise. if they are useful for some fun around a track, the tyres could even not be that great for road use. As long as they are road legal and I can make it to the track on them. :) I will have another set for my normal driving. Most likely AD08RS or PS3.

P.S. I asked about the T1R because this is what I have now. So I can have some sort of baseline for comparisons, as I know how the T1Rs feel on the MR2. :)

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 15:39To be honest if it's wet enough to consider Rainsports, it's got the point the driver matters more than the tyre. TR1 is capable but again wet only - like Rainsports they'll melt to nothing in 30 laps in the dry.

Is your car road first, track second... Or track first, road second?

There is a level of difference between an affordable road tyre that can cope on track (ie AD08, NS2R, 595R, etc), versus an affordable track tyre you can drive home with (ie, AD052, AR1, 888R, etc). Both serve different functions.

Definitely road first, track second. :)

I'm not really interested in the TR1. I asked about the T1R because this is what I have now. ;)

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 15:54Definitely road first, track second. :)

I'm not really interested in the TR1. I asked about the T1R because this is what I have now. ;)

 I have driven a few cars with the older Toyo Proxes. I felt that they were very soft compared to the Yokohama S. Drives. The S. Drives are tires that I felt were well balanced and predictable but sill not there with the stiffness I was after which is the OEM however many would be happy with this kind of tire.   

 The best way I found to predict a tires stiffness is by independent consensus from actual users on a multitude of platforms for the reputation it carries. If you type into google the tire + soft sidewall you will get many independent comments on the sidewall stiffness. Next type in the same tire + stiff sidewall and see what you get. If it's the same complaints with being soft it becomes interesting. I did this with the T1R and it has a consensus of being soft.

 I am not saying this is a fool proof way of knowing but if a tire has a well deserved reputation for either being stiff or soft by independent consensus there is a high likely hood that is what you are getting.

After that I do believe that actual professional tire reviews for grip is not that far off as well as wet weather performance.
 When it comes to tire wear I found the ratings different between the brands. At best it is a guide.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 14:50Any good tyres for the track which won't brake the bank? Since I will burn them around the track I don't feel like paying AD08RS or PS3 money for them. But it needs to be road legal tyres as I need to drive to the track on them. :)

Like the add for a secretary;  ´Max. 25, 10 years of experience, professional, willing to ´sleep´ with boss´, minimum wages.


Meanwhile ordered the 195/50 82V R15 AD08RSs at 101 pound (each) incl. fitting and balancing.

Quote from: Dev on June 13, 2023, 16:46I have driven a few cars with the older Toyo Proxes. I felt that they were very soft compared to the Yokohama S. Drives. The S. Drives are tires that I felt were well balanced and predictable but sill not there with the stiffness I was after which is the OEM however many would be happy with this kind of tire.   

 The best way I found to predict a tires stiffness is by independent consensus from actual users on a multitude of platforms for the reputation it carries. If you type into google the tire + soft sidewall you will get many independent comments on the sidewall stiffness. Next type in the same tire + stiff sidewall and see what you get. If it's the same complaints with being soft it becomes interesting. I did this with the T1R and it has a consensus of being soft.

 I am not saying this is a fool proof way of knowing but if a tire has a well deserved reputation for either being stiff or soft by independent consensus there is a high likely hood that is what you are getting.

After that I do believe that actual professional tire reviews for grip is not that far off as well as wet weather performance.
 When it comes to tire wear I found the ratings different between the brands. At best it is a guide.

Thanks. I also have Toyo on my daily driver and on that I like them. But they are not the T1R. They are the Sport. Car handles well with them. They came on the car. So I might change to Michelin when the time comes to replace them. Just because. But no complains for the use they are getting. Although a totally different type of car obviously, being a 4 door saloon. If they are also on the softer side, that is a good thing for the car. The large and wide wheels with low profile tyres can get pretty crash at times. So softer doesn't hurt here, as it's a daily. So if going Michelin or any other premium brand, I wouldn't necessarily want harder.

 

Quote from: Zens on May 28, 2023, 19:56Talking about premium, it seems controversial outside of the big main brands and seems to depend on the market.

I searched what is conisdered premium and the only absolutle premium brands, those which appeared in all lists were Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear and Continental. Apart from that it was different for the US, UK and German speaking countries. Bridgestone and Dunlop was considered premium in some markets. While Hankook was premium only I think in the UK. Some very few times, Yokohama was also considered premium. But in many lists Hankook and Yokohama was considered to be mid range along with Toyo, Falken and Avon.

So the question is, how much does it matter to be premium and if one really cares, then it should be Michelin, Pirelli, Continental or Goodyear.

I do like the Pilot Sport series as I have had them in other cars and liked them. Plus Michelin has a great reputation and are on probably more peformance cars than most brands it seems. But like you said, personal experience probably counts more than what brand is premium, as there doesn't seem to be an agreement outside of the big 4. Even Bridgestone, which is the biggest is sometimes not listed as premium.

Revisiting this, looking at a local online shop, this is how the tyre brands are stacked in the dropdown menu:

(https://i.ibb.co/QvRKpyK/Tyre-brands.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60xWrjW)
free image hosting sites (https://imgbb.com/)

So according to them, Yokohama is not premium. Meaning there is no great tyre being made from any of the "premium" brands for our cars, apart from the PS3, which is now "old". Ok, there is Hankook. But they are not always on the premium list. I have seen them listed with Toyo and Yokohama in other sites. I guess premium manufactures have given up on the size.

Doesn't affect anything. Just chatter. I will most likely just go with AD08RS. Unless they being semi-slick is a problem somehow here. I think the local autocross for example doesn't seem to allow semi-slick in the street category.

On a side note, either the tyre market has gotten way more crowded or I just never knew. But most of the brands I have never heard. Personal experience I only have with Pirelli, Michelin, Goodyear, Continental, Firestone, Falken and Toyo.

Quote from: Zens on June 14, 2023, 07:06Thanks. I also have Toyo on my daily driver and on that I like them. But they are not the T1R. They are the Sport. Car handles well with them. They came on the car. So I might change to Michelin when the time comes to replace them. Just because. But no complains for the use they are getting. Although a totally different type of car obviously, being a 4 door saloon. If they are also on the softer side, that is a good thing for the car. The large and wide wheels with low profile tyres can get pretty crash at times. So softer doesn't hurt here, as it's a daily. So if going Michelin or any other premium brand, I wouldn't necessarily want harder.

 

 I had a similar experience with my luxury car which is heavy and has 19" wheels. Because I am a bit obsessed with stiff tires I bought Bridgestone all season sport tires. The sidewalls were stiff and compounded by the low profile they made the suspension work extra hard. It felt like the timing was off with how the dampers move and the luxury ride was gone. Once I changed them out for Bridgestone touring tires which have a softer tire compound the car feels right in the way it handles. I cant explain it but it's not just that its more comfortable it makes the car feel better balanced making maneuvers.   

Quote from: Zens on June 14, 2023, 07:28Revisiting this, looking at a local online shop, this is how the tyre brands are stacked in the dropdown menu:

(https://i.ibb.co/QvRKpyK/Tyre-brands.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60xWrjW)
free image hosting sites (https://imgbb.com/)

So according to them, Yokohama is not premium. Meaning there is no great tyre being made from any of the "premium" brands for our cars, apart from the PS3, which is now "old". Ok, there is Hankook. But they are not always on the premium list. I have seen them listed with Toyo and Yokohama in other sites. I guess premium manufactures have given up on the size.

Doesn't affect anything. Just chatter. I will most likely just go with AD08RS. Unless they being semi-slick is a problem somehow here. I think the local autocross for example doesn't seem to allow semi-slick in the street category.

On a side note, either the tyre market has gotten way more crowded or I just never knew. But most of the brands I have never heard. Personal experience I only have with Pirelli, Michelin, Goodyear, Continental, Firestone, Falken and Toyo.

 A lot of what we see today in top tier categories is all over the place. Hankook is a budget Korean brand that has made a competitive name but they are not on the same level as top tier. Donlop does make some good tires but they have been bought out by a conglomerate called Sumitomo Rubber that also owns various other tires brands like Falken which is not top tier. It has been reported that there are some similarities between models of Falken and Dunlop.
 What makes a top tier tire manufacture is a high level of research and development where they might hold patents for specific technology that gives them an edge and being large factory supplier for the industry.
Yokohama is a top tier manufacture but on the whole I think they are behind Michelin and Bridgestone.

Quote from: Dev on June 14, 2023, 14:40I had a similar experience with my heavy luxury car which is heavy and has 19" wheels. Because I am a bit obsessed with stiff tires I bought Bridgestone all season sport tires. The sidewalls were stiff and compounded by the low profile they made the suspension work extra hard. It felt like the timing was off with how the dampers move and the luxury ride was gone. Once I changed them out for Bridgestone touring tires which have a softer tire compound the car feels right in the way it handles. I cant explain it but it's not just that its more comfortable it makes the car feel better balanced making maneuvers. 

Makes sense. Maybe if one only has one car, which needs to do it all, he would need to put up with a stiff ride. But as we have a weekend sports car, why bother and ruin the comfort ride? :)

I was just reading about the Yokohama A052 right here on the forum. It was on a thread which initially gave raving reviews to the Zestino Gredge 07R, till they blew up on the track. But the A052 had some great reviews and feedback in the thread. With some calling it the best universal tyre. But I guess it's more of a track tyre? Considerably more expensive than the AD08RS though. But the main let down is that it seems to be only available in 195/55/15 and 205/50/15. So less stagger than stock, and larger front diam. :(

But the way, anybody has an idea of which rims is this?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQB7AH-hCp5RKzEl_nKmgpCZih6n2hfoR90DJe3P9Iho_PxYc-xwSquKgdtD5617zuo8CB7iTAW6ZHXUF7TvVHD9kICfHA_XZ8Z5JXime69QZUQ_yFRRiCaA92sBb10Z-s4h40&usqp=CAc)

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-UZDNU78ELGou01mhTAisKjicl6R5An5tokLTHetOORT7drwoLx-DqVuhePvLGsABoyvbji2nqo2q2CKn-NSWZqSGShus60CrxAdFxgNbV0B4ogfSExHIZ9CrSPKYMr5S0jQ&usqp=CAc)

Quote from: Zens on June 14, 2023, 14:59Makes sense. Maybe if one only has one car, which needs to do it all, he would need to put up with a stiff ride. But as we have a weekend sports car, why bother and ruin the comfort ride? :)

I was just reading about the Yokohama A052 right here on the forum. It was on a thread which initially gave raving reviews to the Zestino Gredge 07R, till they blew up on the track. But the A052 had some great reviews and feedback in the thread. With some calling it the best universal tyre. But I guess it's more of a track tyre? Considerably more expensive than the AD08RS though. But the main let down is that it seems to be only available in 195/55/15 and 205/50/15. So less stagger than stock, and larger front diam. :(

 The original OEM tires are quite interesting considering there is more than 20 years of tire development which one generation removed.
 I still remember the feel and response but you could easily reach the limits of grip on the street even at slow speeds on tight corners and the wet traction was abysmal. Thats just the way it was and it was considered normal for the time.
Now it seems that with every generation of tire the grip has improved tremendously that it takes a lot of cornering g-forces before I can slip the tires. With the previous tires that I had which was the Falken RT615K it was comical taking a sharp right hand turn into another street at high speed with my suspension in full tilt leaning over and I have coilovers. 
 There was always room for improvement over the OEM in terms of grip for the street but I think that limit has been reached so when the industry comes out with the next best tire raising the bar once more and the hype surrounding its grip as the primary selling point I feel its pointless.
I would be happy buying the same tires even if they are a few generations behind.

Quote from: Zens on June 14, 2023, 15:01But the way, anybody has an idea of which rims is this?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQB7AH-hCp5RKzEl_nKmgpCZih6n2hfoR90DJe3P9Iho_PxYc-xwSquKgdtD5617zuo8CB7iTAW6ZHXUF7TvVHD9kICfHA_XZ8Z5JXime69QZUQ_yFRRiCaA92sBb10Z-s4h40&usqp=CAc)

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-UZDNU78ELGou01mhTAisKjicl6R5An5tokLTHetOORT7drwoLx-DqVuhePvLGsABoyvbji2nqo2q2CKn-NSWZqSGShus60CrxAdFxgNbV0B4ogfSExHIZ9CrSPKYMr5S0jQ&usqp=CAc)

Hi Zens
You may have to wait a while for an answer to your query as your photos aren't opening on my gadget.

They look like Advan RS-DF wheels to me.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 12, 2023, 08:39The experienced on here (before my time) say 205  nullifies the steering feel.  And 205 is under the width range for an 8j wheel.  ??? 

Track orientated setup - I'm ok losing some steering feel for a quicker lap time. And yes my front's are unfortunately a little more stretched than I'd like as the wheel I went for isn't offered in 7J and it's hard to justify larger track tyre sizes when the car spends most of its time on the road.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 07:34For now I would like to go with 16" at the rear. And nothing heavier than OEM. So I have decided I will try to get some FL rear wheels. But thanks for the suggestion just the same. :)

16 at the rear does have benefits. If you get something not too dissimilar to the 15" stock rear wheels then the performance benefit is the option to run a stiffer and lower sidewall tyre.
 

Quote from: leomrs on June 15, 2023, 03:3916 at the rear does have benefits. If you get something not too dissimilar to the 15" stock rear wheels then the performance benefit is the option to run a stiffer and lower sidewall tyre.
 

I have since changed my mind about getting 16" for the rears. :)

I have decided to stick to my PFL wheels for now. The only tyre set I like which allows me to keep 185 at the front is the AD08RS if I go FL 16". PS3 and even the Yoko A052 will mean 195 at the front. The others seem to be on the softer side wall side, which I want to avoid.

So I will get some AD08RS and get some time in with them on the PFL wheels, both on the road and on the track. Then I will decide if I really want or need 16" at the rear or even new wheels. If I don't like the AD08RS, keeping the 15" rear opens up more options than going 16". If I like the AD08RS, I have the option of going 16" FL for the rear and buying another set of AD08RS.  Maybe I will just refinish my PFL rims in a different colour than silver for now.


This decision was based on the fact I can't find a tyre + lighter than OEM rim combo that allows me to keep 185 at the front or even a proper staggering. Combined with the AD08RS being the only stiff set which allows 185 at the front or proper staggering with the FL 16".

Quote from: Alex Knight on June 14, 2023, 16:18They look like Advan RS-DF wheels to me.

Looks very similar indeed. :)

Quote from: Dev on June 14, 2023, 14:56A lot of what we see today in top tier categories is all over the place. Hankook is a budget Korean brand that has made a competitive name but they are not on the same level as top tier. Donlop does make some good tires but they have been bought out by a conglomerate called Sumitomo Rubber that also owns various other tires brands like Falken which is not top tier. It has been reported that there are some similarities between models of Falken and Dunlop.
 What makes a top tier tire manufacture is a high level of research and development where they might hold patents for specific technology that gives them an edge and being large factory supplier for the industry.
Yokohama is a top tier manufacture but on the whole I think they are behind Michelin and Bridgestone.

To me Hankook was never premium. So I was surprised to see it on the premium list of some sites. But it seems to be the minority of sites putting Hankook in the premium list.

I have heard the Dunlop-Falken thing. With the Dunlop connection being used as a compliment to Falken quality. My winter tyres on my daily driver currently are Falken and I can't say I can fault them. Last December I took a road trip where it was raining heavily the whole 2 hours way. No problem driving at motorway speeds on the Falkens under the heavy rain and being cold. Never felt unsafe. And we are talking RWD here. It's my first Falken set but they are fine by me. I got them because somebody recommended them as a more performance oriented winter tyre, which wouldn't break the bank. No idea how good their summer tyres are. But based on my current experience with their winter set, I would have no hesitation in buying Falken summer tyres. My issue with the ZE310 is side wall stiffness.   

Pleased to read you've made a decision.

Goodyear & Sumitomo used to be in partnership of the Dunlop brand, but ended it. Most of Europe's Dunlop are Sumitomo.
The US tyres are Goodyear-produced.

I have Falken F510 on a BMW that generates huge grip. They replaced Michelin. No lack of grip.  If they were made in MR2 sizes I'd buy them for it.

I'd never heard of Hankook 5 years ago. They sponsor racing series (I don't know if used in it) & they are fitted as O/E by manufacturers.

Quote from: Zens on June 15, 2023, 07:28To me Hankook was never premium. So I was surprised to see it on the premium list of some sites. But it seems to be the minority of sites putting Hankook in the premium list.

I have heard the Dunlop-Falken thing. With the Dunlop connection being used as a compliment to Falken quality. My winter tyres on my daily driver currently are Falken and I can't say I can fault them. Last December I took a road trip where it was raining heavily the whole 2 hours way. No problem driving at motorway speeds on the Falkens under the heavy rain and being cold. Never felt unsafe. And we are talking RWD here. It's my first Falken set but they are fine by me. I got them because somebody recommended them as a more performance oriented winter tyre, which wouldn't break the bank. No idea how good their summer tyres are. But based on my current experience with their winter set, I would have no hesitation in buying Falken summer tyres. My issue with the ZE310 is side wall stiffness.   

Having previously used Falken summer tires I felt the sidewalls were ok but nothing like the Firestones I have now. Having said that I will never downgrade to tires that are less than the stiffness I have now so the Falkens are off my list. Grip is important but all of the tires in the same category are over fulfilled for my needs so its not as important. A tire with a weak sidewall is so disappointing but for others I am sure they would not notice or the stiff sidewall would have the opposite effect where they seek comfort.

Peace in our time? :o

I am having another similar discussion/debate elsewhere where I am giving my subjective opinions.

I do not mean to offend anyone that likes a particular tire. My opinions are for what I like and maybe someone else will like them also or not.
  I have never driven a car with the Yokohama Fleva and I am sure they meet the needs for many and will be bought again because people are more than happy with them.
However if I had to go in blind not knowing what to buy the best source of information is how the manufacture categorizes their tires follow by professional reviews and user opinions. If someone dumps on the tires it is unjustified because it is not what the manufacture designed it for to compare to others. 
I found this link interesting. For my needs would want a tire that Yokohama categorizes with others in their line up with the superior handling designation.

https://www.yokohama.com.au/our-range/tyres?cat=Advan%20Tyres

Makes even more difficult when the same manufacturer markets the same tyre differently in different regions.
The link in the previous post was for yokohama.com.AU

From the EU site
https://www.yokohama.eu/en/V701/?tx_tyre_pi1%5Bdiameter%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bindex%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bratio%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bspeed%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bwidth%5D=&cHash=31207813eb6f4c716c5940cadbe88ba2
Screenshot_20230615_202448_Chrome.jpg

Got to love marketing terminology; the El Cheapo no-grip tyres my car came on had emotional handling too  ;D

The marketing can be hyperbolic and misleading at times however even though the link is from AU it does categorize the tires and it compares them like for like with its attribute designation or lack there of for the prospective customer. On the link you posted was interesting because I was trying to find where you can have a comparison between the models for its performance attributes but it was not there except for each individual tire.
 
For three tires I found this. 
"Superior handling performance which is easy to control" ADVAN A052
 "Stability and fast response during high-speed driving" for the ADVAN NEOVA AD08RS
 "New structure with improved casing rigidity"  for the ADVAN NEOVA AD09
 
 Optimization sounds like they did the best they could for the specific tire.

It's all somewhat meaningless unless the tires are compared for like for like.  I am sure the Flevas are a great tire for 90% of owners that drive on the street.
I have no issue with them except that it would not be something that would meet my needs and I am sure more then 70% of people would not like my tires and would find them uncomfortable because they are quiet involving.
 
 The improved casing rigidity on one of the tires interested me so I did a little more research and found that they added more plys to the internal structure to make the tire more rigid but there is a limit for a street tire to be legal. My guess is fuel efficiency due to rolling resistance. 
   I do know that stiff tires on the whole weigh more and with more rolling resistance so there is another disadvantage that can creep into the handling with more unsprung weight. 

No idea which post in the multitude of tyre related posts I have commented on.

But somewhere I said previously.

For all the info on a tyre wall and there is a lot.

There is no industry standard or value for the stiffness of the tyre wall on the tyre.

In knives we have the rockwell scale of hardness for the steel used in the knife, but no such scale for tyre walls.

Quote from: Ardent on June 15, 2023, 22:49No idea which post in the multitude of tyre related posts I have commented on.

But somewhere I said previously.

For all the info on a tyre wall and there is a lot.

There is no industry standard or value for the stiffness of the tyre wall on the tyre.

In knives we have the rockwell scale of hardness for the steel used in the knife, but no such scale for tyre walls.

I wish there was. It would make it a lot easier to choose tires for my needs.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 15, 2023, 08:56Pleased to read you've made a decision.

Goodyear & Sumitomo used to be in partnership of the Dunlop brand, but ended it. Most of Europe's Dunlop are Sumitomo.
The US tyres are Goodyear-produced.

I have Falken F510 on a BMW that generates huge grip. They replaced Michelin. No lack of grip.  If they were made in MR2 sizes I'd buy them for it.

I'd never heard of Hankook 5 years ago. They sponsor racing series (I don't know if used in it) & they are fitted as O/E by manufacturers.

I guess it's possible for a mid range or even budget brand to elevate itself to premium with time and effort. As long as it's just not magazine hype generated by undisclosed paid adds disguised as articles or reviews. Lexus did just that with Toyota, bringing them from a mainstream , midrange brand you could say, to the absolute top of the best of the best. The latest example are the Korean cars. Nobody laughs them out of the room anymore.

Hankook seems to be in a limbo of sorts there. Depends who you ask they are premium or midrange. I myself would have thought Toyo and Yokohama would be above.

Quote from: leomrs on June 15, 2023, 03:36Track orientated setup - I'm ok losing some steering feel for a quicker lap time. And yes my front's are unfortunately a little more stretched than I'd like as the wheel I went for isn't offered in 7J and it's hard to justify larger track tyre sizes when the car spends most of its time on the road.

I can see where you are coming from. I guess it depends on what track experience you are looking for.

To me, the track is just a chance to get to know my car better and an opportunity to push it in a way I would never and could never do on public roads. A chance to make me a better driver and a better driver for the particular car. All the while having as much fun as I can. :) So steering feeling is definitely important to me on the track too.  But lap times and any competition is totally unimportant and off the radar.

Quote from: Petrus on June 15, 2023, 21:04Got to love marketing terminology; the El Cheapo no-grip tyres my car came on had emotional handling too  ;D

My number one rule when buying anything is, NEVER believe marketing. :)

Quote from: Dev on June 15, 2023, 22:27The marketing can be hyperbolic and misleading at times however even though the link is from AU it does categorize the tires and it compares them like for like with its attribute designation or lack there of for the prospective customer. On the link you posted was interesting because I was trying to find where you can have a comparison between the models for its performance attributes but it was not there except for each individual tire.
 
For three tires I found this. 
"Superior handling performance which is easy to control" ADVAN A052
 "Stability and fast response during high-speed driving" for the ADVAN NEOVA AD08RS
 "New structure with improved casing rigidity"  for the ADVAN NEOVA AD09
 
 Optimization sounds like they did the best they could for the specific tire.

It's all somewhat meaningless unless the tires are compared for like for like.  I am sure the Flevas are a great tire for 90% of owners that drive on the street.
I have no issue with them except that it would not be something that would meet my needs and I am sure more then 70% of people would not like my tires and would find them uncomfortable because they are quiet involving.
 
 The improved casing rigidity on one of the tires interested me so I did a little more research and found that they added more plys to the internal structure to make the tire more rigid but there is a limit for a street tire to be legal. My guess is fuel efficiency due to rolling resistance. 
  I do know that stiff tires on the whole weigh more and with more rolling resistance so there is another disadvantage that can creep into the handling with more unsprung weight.

This Fleva off topic argument must have started before my time. It seems quite deeply rooted. :)

But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

To me at least, worrying about comfort in a MR2 spyder is like worrying about calories if you are eating at McDonalds. For this reason since the start of this, I'm trying to gravitate towards tyres that will afford me the best possible performance on the road, with the best possible sporting driving feeling. Comfort is like, at the bottom of the pile of priorities. I actually can't think of a single thing which would be bellow comfort in a MR2 spyder, for me.  I know to each his own. The same goes for the argument of lack of practicality, for me. If I want practical and comfortable I would never buy a MR2 spyder. :)

Quote from: Dev on June 15, 2023, 14:03Having previously used Falken summer tires I felt the sidewalls were ok but nothing like the Firestones I have now. Having said that I will never downgrade to tires that are less than the stiffness I have now so the Falkens are off my list. Grip is important but all of the tires in the same category are over fulfilled for my needs so its not as important. A tire with a weak sidewall is so disappointing but for others I am sure they would not notice or the stiff sidewall would have the opposite effect where they seek comfort.

Too much grip can spoil a bit of the fun IMO. I think a balance is where it's at with anything involving a sports car. So the argument for the Flevas is grip?

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:27But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

They work at lower temperatures, pump more water and are more silent. They are quite good, just more all weather not track day ones. Horses for courses so it does not do to jusdge them as no good because they are not supersommers.
They are supposed to be as predictable as AD08RS so win-win for more generic use at a better price. Actaully win³  :))

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:17To me, the track is just a chance to get to know my car better and an opportunity to push it in a way I would never and could never do on public roads. A chance to make me a better driver and a better driver for the particular car. All the while having as much fun as I can. :) So steering feeling is definitely important to me on the track too.  But lap times and any competition is totally unimportant and off the radar.

I have raced for mány years and find it has basically nothing to do with the public road. It definitely does nót make yu a better driver.
Tracks are way better maintained with better tarmac and there is nothing real world cluttering it. No street furniture, no diesel/oil, no pedestrians, no kamikaze cyclist, nobody coming round the blind corner in front like a bat out of its cave on YOUR side. And that is just scratiching the surface.
You don´t even learn how your car behaves because there is no real world surface.

Imo the closest you can get to learn about your car is finding an idustrial estate on an early non working day and let it all hang out, simulating things going wrong, correcting mistakes made on purpose. Emergency brake in various circumstance, pull the handbrake, lift off brusquely when cornering.
Imo riding a motorcycle through an average wet chily winter is thé best for training good drivers. Controling a car is the easy bit in the real world.
Being a good driver on the public road is ALL about:
- anticipating
- maintaining/managing safety margins

This is why set ups good for track are in a nutshell USELESS on real world roads.
Tracks and numbers are why modern ´sports´cars are silly powerful/fast and úseless on real world roads.

Anyway, whichéver tyres are the contact with the road, théy are the begin and end all of the margins you need to respect. Go explore the limits somewhere real. The track is a different place altogether that does not teach you much. A (anti) skid course or advanced drivers (police) one with yoúr car does.

Rant over  O:-)

p.s.
This

(https://cdn.blog.hu/ra/rallyedream/image/moss_carlson.jpg)

is a wonderful example. Two celebrated rally race drivers and their book is about... anticipating, margins. Delightful read about what nowadays is no longer tought in driving lessons.

Quote from: Petrus on June 16, 2023, 07:49They work at lower temperatures, pump more water and are more silent. They are quite good, just more all weather not track day ones. Horses for courses so it does not do to jusdge them as no good because they are not supersommers.
They are supposed to be as predictable as AD08RS so win-win for more generic use at a better price. Actaully win³  :))

I didn't judge them as no good though. :) But now I got what the deal is. ;) Thanks.

To me, since I won't drive on the wet, let alone rain, I guess those aren't advantages. So for my case only the cheaper price would be attractive. But since the AD08RS is more fitting to my needs, easy decision for me.

As for a silent tyre, the engine is "inside the cabin with you". That ship has sailed. :D

For complete understanding, the AD08RS is éxcellent in the rain, just not a full wet, so drwas the line at standing water.
What I particularly ñike in the wet is that like on dry it does nothing súddenly.

I just had my new fronts fitted. Still lóts of profile but simply heat cycled out. Tant pis.

Quote from: Petrus on June 16, 2023, 08:27I have raced for mány years and find it has basically nothing to do with the public road. It definitely does nót make yu a better driver.
Tracks are way better maintained with better tarmac and there is nothing real world cluttering it. No street furniture, no diesel/oil, no pedestrians, no kamikaze cyclist, nobody coming round the blind corner in front like a bat out of its cave on YOUR side. And that is just scratiching the surface.
You don´t even learn how your car behaves because there is no real world surface.

Imo the closest you can get to learn about your car is finding an idustrial estate on an early non working day and let it all hang out, simulating things going wrong, correcting mistakes made on purpose. Emergency brake in various circumstance, pull the handbrake, lift off brusquely when cornering.
Imo riding a motorcycle through an average wet chily winter is thé best for training good drivers. Controling a car is the easy bit in the real world.
Being a good driver on the public road is ALL about:
- anticipating
- maintaining/managing safety margins

This is why set ups good for track are in a nutshell USELESS on real world roads.
Tracks and numbers are why modern ´sports´cars are silly powerful/fast and úseless on real world roads.

Anyway, whichéver tyres are the contact with the road, théy are the begin and end all of the margins you need to respect. Go explore the limits somewhere real. The track is a different place altogether that does not teach you much. A (anti) skid course or advanced drivers (police) one with yoúr car does.

Rant over  O:-)

p.s.
This

(https://cdn.blog.hu/ra/rallyedream/image/moss_carlson.jpg)

is a wonderful example. Two celebrated rally race drivers and their book is about... anticipating, margins. Delightful read about what nowadays is no longer tought in driving lessons.

Well, that is an opinion, and a strong one at that. :)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Or maybe not, as you came at this totally from the wrong side. Maybe once you see the side I'm coming from, we will even agree.

You took "better driver" as in safer, better able to navigate traffic, whatever. But this is not what I meant. I meant a better driver as in being able to extract more from the car. Hence why I said, better driver for the particular car. ;)

As for roads, I'm not sure how the roads are where you are. The UK is notorious for having "bad" roads. At least everybody there always complains about it online and the few times I was, I have to agree somewhat. But the roads here in comparison are awesome! It was one of the first things I noticed when I moved here. Kind of helps to make it easier to live with the very tough anti tuning and anti car mod'ing rules here.

Honestly, the street I live doesn't seem any less flat or smooth than a race track. Actually, the nearest race track near me is probably rougher. B roads here are just a peach! With very few exceptions. Autobahn? Awesome. Compared to some other countries I have driven on, it's truly outstanding. I just came back from a few days vacationing down south on the coast and I was cursing the whole time for my 19" in potholes and road patches. It was the first time we drove down in my car. We normally take my wife's SUV. Next time, it will be the SUV again! :D

All I can say is, track days and autocross (U.S. style) have made me a better driver in the past and allowed me to better understand my cars and extract more of them on the road. I can't say any more than that. This has been my experience. :)

Circuit driving (and karting) has made me a better road driver, especially in the snow and the wet.

There are many transferable skills.

I have driven over a patch of diesel on a wet roundabout. Circuit driving has given me the skills to be able to control the resultant slide and avoid a crash. Nothing else has contributed to learning that skill. Just circuit driving.

To say there are no transferable skills from track to road driving is pure bunkum.

Maybe simply semantics or different definitions.

I live in the south of Spain, in the mountainous heartland of Andulucía. Pure driver´s heaven where car manufacturers introduce new spòrts models for a reason  ;D
More accurately I live in the middle of touge heaven  :))
Even with well maintained tarmac road conditions vary deeply into the unexpected. Also, even though traffic is very sparse, you are guaranteed to encounter Manolo in his old Panda in the middle of a blind corner.

The crux of my point is that the public road, wherever, sets the limits. Period.
The more one is aware of the unexpected not being uncertain, just the what/when, the more margin one keeps.
Now where I thínk we agree is with the depth of skills. Under controlled circumstanced one can exploit limits and thus gain experience with that, as such drive better indeed, which on the public road creates a wider safety margin.

P.e. braking. The vast majority od drivers does not exploit the max capacity of the brakes. Even with abs. Learning that on track is indeed better on the street also.
Braking is a bit of my pet peeve as it makes the diference between stopping short of a mishap and clobbering one or more cyclist. This is inherited from decades of motorcycle and bicycle riding. Still drive a sidecar and just fitted more comfortable handelebars to a bicycle so I can go pédal for my morning coffee. Being thus a vulnerable participant in traffic the lardy Peltzman specials are quite scary, increasingly so.
For over 35 years now I have made it a routine to first thing go test brakes/braking of any new vehicle. From there the margins are dictated downwards.
Also it is almost the main reason for the AD08RS on my spider; them stop very short when/if the brakes are applied as they should.

p.s. the Peltzman effect can easily apply to track riders too.  The road circumstances do not change. You dó stand a better chance to avoid a mishap. At least if the skills gained do not lull you unto the idea of being able to drive faster. Yoú probably can. The rest of the world however is still the same.
I know many think I live in an alternative reality and in thát reality my competition years have made me more aware of limits and risks of the public road. Racing/rallying has made me more careful in the real world.

Right, back to the 3D printer...

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:27This Fleva off topic argument must have started before my time. It seems quite deeply rooted. :)

But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

To me at least, worrying about comfort in a MR2 spyder is like worrying about calories if you are eating at McDonalds. For this reason since the start of this, I'm trying to gravitate towards tyres that will afford me the best possible performance on the road, with the best possible sporting driving feeling. Comfort is like, at the bottom of the pile of priorities. I actually can't think of a single thing which would be bellow comfort in a MR2 spyder, for me.  I know to each his own. The same goes for the argument of lack of practicality, for me. If I want practical and comfortable I would never buy a MR2 spyder. :)

Here is my take.
    The Fleva is in a different performance category which is called ultra high performance summer. These tires generally are at the bottom of the summer only tire category however they have many advantages over the max summer or extreme summer tire categories. 
 1. Cold tolerance
 2. Wet weather performance
 3. Fuel savings
 4. longevity in tread wear
 5. Comfort
 6. less road noise as the tires wear
 7. Price
 
 When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

Oddly enough my Firestones are in the same category as the Fleva but they seem to blur the lines because they perform more like a max summer tire but not as good as one.

So in a nutshell there is a price to pay if you go up the ranks as the higher performance tire will cost you more per mile but they will give you incredible performance. I see nothing wrong with using them if your car is seasonal or used in the weekends but for a daily car maybe not so much.

 I would still deal with the shortcomings in favor of tires that have a stiff response because I don't mind paying the admission price for a drive that I like than compromise for being unsatisfied. 

 Notice I did not really mention tire stiffness because you can have them in both especially for RFT tires.
 I think the reason why you find less ridged tires these days is for comfort with larger sized wheels that require extremely low profile tires. People use to complain about the comfort of big wheels and now they are almost non existent especially since factory cars come with them. 
Also it's possible that  the number of plys in the tire have been scarified to decrease the rolling resistance to make these tires more fuel efficient to meet some sort of standard.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 14:23When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

And the AD08RS is in this extreme summer category then.(?) What is the Hankook?

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 22:20And the AD08RS is in this extreme summer category then.(?) What is the Hankook?

Yes to both if the Hankook is the RS4.

A good compromise for a primary street tire that is higher then the ultra high performance summer is max summer which is where the Michelin PS4 and PS2 sits.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 23:09Yes to both if the Hankook is the RS4.

A good compromise for a primary street tire that is higher then the ultra high performance summer is max summer which is where the Michelin PS4 and PS2 sits.

I think the Hankkok being thrown around in this thread is the hankook ventus prime 3 k125. First I hear of a Hankook RS4.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 14:23When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

Is this data published in tyre specs? Like, is it known bellow which temperature the AD08RS would start suffering?

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 09:05Is this data published in tyre specs?

You would expect that yes that manugfacturers list the operating range but no, not industry standard at all.
For competition rubber very few manufacturers do publish the temp at which they start working.
Several manufacturers list what is the max and min temp at which the tyres are best stored.

Quote from: Petrus on June 17, 2023, 09:15You would expect that yes that manugfacturers list the operating range but no, not industry standard at all.
For competition rubber very few manufacturers do publish the temp at which they start working.
Several manufacturers list what is the max and min temp at which the tyres are best stored.

Thanks. In your personal experience, when is it too cold for the AD08RS? Or do you only use them in high summer?

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 12:15Thanks. In your personal experience, when is it too cold for the AD08RS? Or do you only use them in high summer?

I use them all year round.
Also, living in the mountains, nights and early mornings can be below zero quite often for some 4 months. Wééks of frosted windscreens is normal.
I would say they will do ok to some 5 degrees if you factor in some more time to warm them up.
Especially below zero they don´t work and don´t wake up. Mind, they are still rubber tyres and about on par with the El Cheapo no grip specials mine came on.
Also I find they stay predictable and consistent. Simply adjust your driving.

Btwm the 195/50 look a lót smaller in the wheel well than the 195/55 than they really áre. I mean, we are taking 1 cm lower rubber ffs but you percieve it without doubt.

Quote from: Petrus on June 17, 2023, 12:41I use them all year round.
Also, living in the mountains, nights and early mornings can be below zero quite often for some 4 months. Wééks of frosted windscreens is normal.
I would say they will do ok to some 5 degrees if you factor in some more time to warm them up.
Especially below zero they don´t work and don´t wake up. Mind, they are still rubber tyres and about on par with the El Cheapo no grip specials mine came on.
Also I find they stay predictable and consistent. Simply adjust your driving.

Btwm the 195/50 look a lót smaller in the wheel well than the 195/55 than they really áre. I mean, we are taking 1 cm lower rubber ffs but you percieve it without doubt.

Alright. Then they should do just fine for me between May and October. :) Maybe even stretch April-November. Let's see.

I will go 185/55 for the fronts. ;)

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 09:01I think the Hankkok being thrown around in this thread is the hankook ventus prime 3 k125. First I hear of a Hankook RS4.

The Prime 3 are in the ultra high performance category. This tire looks similar to the ones I had long ago which I went through 2 sets. They were not stiff but they were somewhat ok for a budget tire. My only regret was not going back to the OEM Yokohama tires before they were discontinued.

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 09:05Is this data published in tyre specs? Like, is it known bellow which temperature the AD08RS would start suffering?

This is for the R version.

QuoteADVAN Neova AD08 R is designed to increase grip and improve handling on dry and wet roads. However, like all Extreme Performance Summer tires, these tires are not intended to be serviced, stored nor driven in near- and below-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

The storage part concerns me but I think driving with them in freezing temps could ruin their molecular structure and cause them to get brittle.

Man, this grew arms and legs  ;D

Quote from: McMr2 on June 17, 2023, 23:05Man, this grew arms and legs  ;D

...and apart from my Friday mounted set not much rubber  :))

Note to self; need to scrub in a bit more before going deep on the twisty bits to Portugal tomorrow.

Ten pages on rear wheels and tyres!! 

I stopped reading seven pages ago, and so did most of our members, I'm sure. 

Fewer and fewer people are engaging on here, and a lot of that is because of the tedium being inflicted.

There.  I've said it.

aye we should all participate a bit less because all has been written before anyway and if it has not it will annoy some more and not be worth their bandwith... Ban us all I say so the good folk can have a quiet forum.

Right, it is rainy so will go wash mine under the softer rain water and wipe it dry under roof.

This topic received well over 2k  views with a good number of participants, including the original poster who is asking pertinent questions that some of us were answering staying on topic, participating as well as benefiting from the discussion.
I don't understand what the problem is. There are many threads where I don't participate but I do read them and I am sure other people do as well, in fact, I was contacted elsewhere about this topic from someone that does not post actively  on this board for my opinions on the matter for their needs.

This thread was reaching a natural conclusion as most threads do where everyone is happy to have participated and enjoyed, so if there is a problem kindly send me a private message asking me to no longer participate and to no longer answer the original posters questions that were addressed directly to me.
It is obvious I did something wrong that I was unaware of and still unaware.

Quote from: Dev on June 18, 2023, 13:14This topic received well over 2k  views with a good number of participants, including the original poster who is asking pertinent questions that some of us were answering staying on topic, participating as well as benefiting from the discussion.
I don't understand what the problem is. There are many threads where I don't participate but I do read them and I am sure other people do as well, in fact, I was contacted elsewhere about this topic from someone that does not post actively  on this board for my opinions on the matter for their needs.

This thread was reaching a natural conclusion as most threads do where everyone is happy to have participated and enjoyed, so if there is a problem kindly send me a private message asking me to no longer participate and to no longer answer the original posters questions that were addressed directly to me.
It is obvious I did something wrong that I was unaware of and still unaware.

No disrespect intended here, was just amazed to see how it grew from the original post.

Quote from: McMr2 on June 18, 2023, 13:32No disrespect intended here, was just amazed to see how it grew from the original post.

I did not take it as such. It probably grew because I as well as others have the same problem with finding the right wheels and tires when our options in sizes are becoming limited every year. What was good years ago has now become discontinued. In the case of my market I cant get anything worth having because they are starting at 18" tires and above.

Well, saying it's a thread about rear wheels and tyres only is simplifying it a bit. :)

This is how it started yes, but as with any conversation, one thing led to another and we went from rear FL wheels and tyres to the advantage of 16" at rear, if any, to the ins and outs of different tyres and wheels sizes than OEM, to replacing OEM wheels with lighter wheels, to selecting tyres which were not only good for the road but also some track fun, to discussing the difference between the tyre lines and brands and now tyre storage. ;)

Quite a bit of ground covered there and I for one am glad for the contributions from Dev, Petrus and everybody who engaged in the "back and forths". I learned a lot there. :) Thanks for that!

The conundrum with forums is that while many or even most questions have probably been already asked and answered, and using the search function may suffice, forums depend on people engaging in new conversations and bringing in traffic for the forum's survival. Specially in this day when many forums died or are dying because conversations have moved to Facebook. Having been a moderator in forums before, I know long discussions are not necessarily bad for traffic and attracting new members as well as add revenue, when applicable.

Besides, I do enjoy talking about things I'm passionate about with fellow minded folks, even if we are talking about things we have before. :)

But in the case of tyres, I must agree with Dev, that what was relevant before seems no longer. I found conversations online from just a few years back on tyres for the Mr2 spyder which are no longer that relevant today.

But we covered a lot more ground than just that here. And when I think I'm done, more important and useful info pops up, like now the question of tyre "storage." :)

Quote from: Dev on June 17, 2023, 15:03This is for the R version.
The storage part concerns me but I think driving with them in freezing temps could ruin their molecular structure and cause them to get brittle.

I have no intention of driving the AD08RS in freezing temperatures. But the part about storage is now concerning me too. I mean, I will only drive the car in spring-summer. The car will be sitting on the tyres for the rest of the year. Will that be worse on them than on any other normal tyre? And what do they mean by "these tires are not intended to be serviced"?

Quote from: Zens on June 19, 2023, 10:44I have no intention of driving the AD08RS in freezing temperatures. But the part about storage is now concerning me too. I mean, I will only drive the car in spring-summer. The car will be sitting on the tyres for the rest of the year. Will that be worse on them than on any other normal tyre? And what do they mean by "these tires are not intended to be serviced"?

I wouldn't worry about this.

My AD08RS tyres have seen freezing conditions many times.

I've recently done a 3-day 660 mile round trip and a trackday to boot.

No dramas.

Quote from: Zens on June 19, 2023, 10:44I have no intention of driving the AD08RS in freezing temperatures. But the part about storage is now concerning me too. I mean, I will only drive the car in spring-summer. The car will be sitting on the tyres for the rest of the year. Will that be worse on them than on any other normal tyre? And what do they mean by "these tires are not intended to be serviced"?

Most warnings revolve around flexing the tires when they are cold.

One option for storage for summer tires that seems OK is to buy relatively inexpensive storage ramps that have a rounded section for the tire, and then pump the tires up to the max allowed pressure, typically 40-50 psi.  They won't flat spot or even flex much if you have to roll the car around.   Just remember to drop the pressures when going out in warmer weather!

Quote from: Zens on June 19, 2023, 10:41Well, saying it's a thread about rear wheels and tyres only is simplifying it a bit. :)

This is how it started yes, but as with any conversation, one thing led to another and we went from rear FL wheels and tyres to the advantage of 16" at rear, if any, to the ins and outs of different tyres and wheels sizes than OEM, to replacing OEM wheels with lighter wheels, to selecting tyres which were not only good for the road but also some track fun, to discussing the difference between the tyre lines and brands and now tyre storage. ;)

Quite a bit of ground covered there and I for one am glad for the contributions from Dev, Petrus and everybody who engaged in the "back and forths". I learned a lot there. :) Thanks for that!

The conundrum with forums is that while many or even most questions have probably been already asked and answered, and using the search function may suffice, forums depend on people engaging in new conversations and bringing in traffic for the forum's survival. Specially in this day when many forums died or are dying because conversations have moved to Facebook. Having been a moderator in forums before, I know long discussions are not necessarily bad for traffic and attracting new members as well as add revenue, when applicable.

Besides, I do enjoy talking about things I'm passionate about with fellow minded folks, even if we are talking about things we have before. :)

But in the case of tyres, I must agree with Dev, that what was relevant before seems no longer. I found conversations online from just a few years back on tyres for the Mr2 spyder which are no longer that relevant today.

But we covered a lot more ground than just that here. And when I think I'm done, more important and useful info pops up, like now the question of tyre "storage." :)

 It was enjoyable because you asked good questions as an enthusiast that aroused my curiosity to further my own understanding. I hope you find tires that fulfill your driving pleasure. 

Quote from: Beachbum957 on June 19, 2023, 11:35Most warnings revolve around flexing the tires when they are cold.

One option for storage for summer tires that seems OK is to buy relatively inexpensive storage ramps that have a rounded section for the tire, and then pump the tires up to the max allowed pressure, typically 40-50 psi.  They won't flat spot or even flex much if you have to roll the car around.   Just remember to drop the pressures when going out in warmer weather!

I'll not confess as to the age of my Falken tyres but they have been on the ground for only 6 months of the year at standard pressures and for the winter 6 months they were off the car for one winter, then the car was either on axle stands or the tyres inflated to just below max. and out of UV light in semi darkness in my garage in winter months.
The tyres look to be in good condition with no sign of cracking or other deterioration

Quote from: Beachbum957 on June 19, 2023, 11:35Most warnings revolve around flexing the tires when they are cold.

One option for storage for summer tires that seems OK is to buy relatively inexpensive storage ramps that have a rounded section for the tire, and then pump the tires up to the max allowed pressure, typically 40-50 psi.  They won't flat spot or even flex much if you have to roll the car around.  Just remember to drop the pressures when going out in warmer weather!

I see. The thing is, my MR2 will be stored under a carport during winter. Which means, it's under a roof, but still outside. So it will get cold. I will cover it with a car cover. But it will be in outdoor temperatures, which are definitely bellow freezing.

Putting it on stands to take the tyres off to store is not an option. So hopefully the overinflating trick will suffice. Or if I can find the ramps you mentioned around here.

Quote from: Dev on June 19, 2023, 15:20It was enjoyable because you asked good questions as an enthusiast that aroused my curiosity to further my own understanding. I hope you find tires that fulfill your driving pleasure. 

Thanks.:)

I'm still not done, as you can see.

I guess I could have started new threads for the different tyre related topics. But it grew so naturally here.

For example, I'm now pondering if I should go to the track with my current T1Rs to finish them off. Or if I risk not having legal tyres for the drive back. The rear ones probably have around 3mm left. Since the MR2 is so light, I would say they should be good for at least a half day on the track under 30°C weather? Would hate for them to wear out bellow legal tread depth and I can't drive back on them. I don't think the small track offers any tyre service.

But if I go on my new AD08RS that I will buy, I will need to drive on them for a while on the road first, before I can track them. By the time I get enough drive on them, summer might be over. I would like to track the car at least once this year yet. :)

As a last decision point in going with the AD08RS, there are very few days in the year here where it's really hot. Like above 30°C. Between April and October we are mainly talking about temperatures in the 20's °C. April, May and October can even drop a bit bellow, like 15-17°C. All this talk about the AD08RS being for higher temperatures made me think if they are really the best tyres for me, if I will only get the full performance those few days which are above 30°C or really warm. And then they will be just too hard. Maybe bad memories from driving an manual M3 with summer tyres in dump winter once.  ;D 

If they only worked in high temperatures they wouldn't be sold in the UK.  Has anyone every suggested you over-think things?

Quote from: Zens on June 20, 2023, 10:18if I will only get the full performance those few days which are above 30°C or really warm.   

Wrong. It´s when théy are on temp. Not the same.

Meanwhile done some 600 kms with the my fresh fornts. The 50-series are just what the docter ordered. They grip as the old R used too and yes, júst noticeably stiffer, more direct.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 20, 2023, 13:42If they only worked in high temperatures they wouldn't be sold in the UK.

I didn't mean they only work in high temperatures. I meant if they perform best in high temperatures, and those are only a few days a year here, if it's still worth it, or better to get a tyre which will perform at its best more times a year. ;)

 

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 20, 2023, 13:42Has anyone every suggested you over-think things?

All the time man, all the time. I'm the rather safe than sorry type. So it can irritate some. But often times it pays off when S hits the fan and I don't get sprayed as I'm safely watching from the bleachers. I apologize if it irritates you. 

Quote from: Petrus on June 20, 2023, 14:11Wrong. It´s when théy are on temp. Not the same.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you just said. :)

Quote from: Zens on June 20, 2023, 20:04Sorry, but I have no idea what you just said. :)

Same.

Quote from: Zens on June 20, 2023, 20:04Sorry, but I have no idea what you just said. :)

The wéather does not need to be warm. As long as it is not thát cold that you cannot get the rubber absorbing energy and thus warm up.
With some 25 degrees yesterday around midday I had the rubber hót to the touch, at least 55 degrees.
That is why with 5 degrees ambient temp the rubber can still be warmed up enough.

This observed I would have two sets of wheels if I would be living in the Netherlands.  Héck, I even have two sets nów. Have the OEM set I replaced with the Enkeis still in the garage. The idea is to fit a set of winters but sofar have not felt the need.

On a lighter note:
Fitted the OEM pfl wheels under my Suzuki Kei car van for fun for a year but they are too heavy (originally on narrow 13") so they are back in the garage again. As such I have a set of all wather in reserve. Don´t expect I will use them.

On a lighter still note: Global warming will work in your advantage for summer tyre use  ;)

Quote from: Petrus on June 20, 2023, 21:04The wéather does not need to be warm. As long as it is not thát cold that you cannot get the rubber absorbing energy and thus warm up.
With some 25 degrees yesterday around midday I had the rubber hót to the touch, at least 55 degrees.
That is why with 5 degrees ambient temp the rubber can still be warmed up enough.

This observed I would have two sets of wheels if I would be living in the Netherlands.  Héck, I even have two sets nów. Have the OEM set I replaced with the Enkeis still in the garage. The idea is to fit a set of winters but sofar have not felt the need.

On a lighter note:
Fitted the OEM pfl wheels under my Suzuki Kei car van for fun for a year but they are too heavy (originally on narrow 13") so they are back in the garage again. As such I have a set of all wather in reserve. Don´t expect I will use them.

On a lighter still note: Global warming will work in your advantage for summer tyre use  ;)

Having 2 sets is out of question, as this is a for spring/summer only car. Ok, I will give the AD08RS a try. I did read quite a few negative reviews and feedback on the AD08RS compared to the old AD08R. But I guess the only way to know if they are good or bad for me is trying it myself. If I don't like them I will just try to kill them faster on the track. Then buy the Hankooks :)

Talking about track, what's your experience with tyre wear and the MR2 spyder on the track?

Well, it (hopefully obviously) depends on your alignment settings and driving style.

I get through tyres at a ratio of 2:1 rear:front.

That should tell you about my driving style.

Other experiences may vary.

I set the car up for understeer and I wear through rears faster than fronts. Ratio may well be 2:1 on pure wear. I have more practice front tyres lying about than rears.

It's wear that kills the rears. It's the tyres going blue and hard from heat cycles that kills the fronts - despite tread being left.

I find both tyres are done as a competitive tyre at about a 1.1 ratio, the fronts could still be used for track days though.

Thanks. As far as I know the set up on the car is stock. Don't think it has been changed. I can't compare it as mine is the only one I have ever driven seriously.

I know driving style affects the wear too. But ultimately it also leans on the type of tyre and car weight. The car is very light. But the T1Rs seem to be on the softer side, by all accounts. So my guess is that 3mm thread at the rear should be enough for some half day fun at the track. But maybe I'm totally wrong and will have to be towed home after.  ;D

TR1's will overheat and chew up on a dry track.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 21, 2023, 23:43I set the car up for understeer and I wear through rears faster than fronts. Ratio may well be 2:1 on pure wear. I have more practice front tyres lying about than rears.

It's wear that kills the rears. It's the tyres going blue and hard from heat cycles that kills the fronts - despite tread being left.

I find both tyres are done as a competitive tyre at about a 1.1 ratio, the fronts could still be used for track days though.

I have same on the road, though the front use on track... no sé, the grip is simply not there anymore. As the set wears and heat cycles, they get worse more of less at the same rate and also it goes gradually so you adjust to it. Replace the rears though and the front no-grip is  :o
Imo of course  :-*

When the rears wore down I was given a fresh set by a gf and treaded lightly about the fronst so replaced those at a less obvious later time myself. Otherwise I´d have replaced all 4.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 22, 2023, 09:24TR1's will overheat and chew up on a dry track.

Thanks. But I have T1R's. Does that make a difference?

Older are a  fair bit softer.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 22, 2023, 14:36Older are a  fair bit softer.

Thanks. Ok, so that's the idea of finishing the Toyos off on track out of the window. I just didn't want to toss them out as they still have a bit of life left in them. But I also didn't want to wait till they go to buy the better AD08RS, as that can be at end of summer or even last till next year.

Quote from: Zens on June 22, 2023, 15:57Thanks. Ok, so that's the idea of finishing the Toyos off on track out of the window. I just didn't want to toss them out as they still have a bit of life left in them. But I also didn't want to wait till they go to buy the better AD08RS, as that can be at end of summer or even last till next year.

Tyre economy is plain wrong. Figure out which type suits the use and then simply pay up for top shelf.
Apart from the potebtially clobering a fellow human being or not, the economics of the chance on a fender bender makes it worth it.

Quote from: Petrus on June 22, 2023, 16:03Tyre economy is plain wrong. Figure out which type suits the use and then simply pay up for top shelf.
Apart from the potebtially clobering a fellow human being or not, the economics of the chance on a fender bender makes it worth it.

I'm sorry. But what in the world are you on about???

I don't know if it's a language barrier/second language limitation thing. But most of your posts are very off somehow, if not bordering on rude. And hard to understand on top of that.

Quote from: Zens on June 22, 2023, 15:57Thanks. Ok, so that's the idea of finishing the Toyos off on track out of the window. I just didn't want to toss them out as they still have a bit of life left in them. But I also didn't want to wait till they go to buy the better AD08RS, as that can be at end of summer or even last till next year.

I keep get drawing into this.....  if you're going to track it, get decent tyres on it.  Ask the track-goers in Austria what works.  Utterly pointless, IMO, spending the money on track time knowing that the tyres are crap.  If you can't afford the tyres, wait until you can.

Quote from: Zens on June 22, 2023, 16:29I'm sorry. But what in the world are you on about???

I don't know if it's a language barrier/second language limitation thing. But most of your posts are very off somehow, if not bordering on rude. And hard to understand on top of that.

Right. Trying to be helpful and get bordeline insulted  ::)
A well, tant pis (that is French).
Have a nice day.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 22, 2023, 16:35I keep get drawing into this.....  if you're going to track it, get decent tyres on it.  Ask the track-goers in Austria what works.  Utterly pointless, IMO, spending the money on track time knowing that the tyres are crap.  If you can't afford the tyres, wait until you can.

Decent tyres as in the AD08RS? This is what I'm getting, after recommendations here and elsewhere, for this very application.

As for the the T1Rs I have no experience with them. I drove about 200km on them so far, on the road. No idea how they behave on track. Hence why I asked here. Was just told they are no good for that. Now I know.  Didn't before. So I wasn't thinking of spending money on track time knowing the tyres are bad, as I didn't know, till I asked. ;)

Don't know why you would think I can't afford the tyres. By what I saw, the AD08RS is far from the cheapest option for the car. So I'm honestly confused by which posts of mine you are reading in order to draw all the conclusions you had in the above post.

As for tracking the car, I guess this is subjective. As I explained, I'm not racing. Just going around the track a few laps. Not even necessarily one right after the other without a break. Back in the day, I and everybody I knew basically did autocross with our daily drivers, on normal tyres. Never an issue to go around a few laps. Very different from lap after lap, after lap, or actually racing. So I guess one must define "tracking". I explained before though. :)

Quote from: Petrus on June 22, 2023, 16:50Right. Trying to be helpful and get bordeline insulted  ::)
A well, tant pis (that is French).
Have a nice day.

Sorry Petrus, but how is your lecturing post above, trying to help? You mention insulting, and this is how it comes across to me. Very snide and condescending. Not the first time either, which is why I called it out.

I'm not even sure what you were trying to lecture about or say? Were you implying I'm trying to save on tyres? If I was, would I buy the AD08RS, instead of going with one of the several much cheaper options? My current T1R tyres have the double of the legal tread limit left on them. So I'm not risking any lives there either.

All I did was ask about the T1Rs on the track. Key word here is, asked. ;)

Beause I feel like just tossing them out is a waste, if they were good enough, which I didn't know, till I asked.

Okay.  This has got out of hand.

End of.