Is the 2ZZ a problem engine for oiling issues to the crank shaft?
I have now spun 3 bearings in about 150 track miles.
I also have seen first hand another 2x 2ZZ engines that have spun bearings on track. Between myself and Andy J-Spec we can account for 8-9 instances of it.
My failures.
Engine #1 – Failure Croft – Spun #1 rod bearingBottom end: OEM block, never rebuilt. Approx 80k miles.
Top end: Stage 3 cams, uprated springs
Bearings: OEM
Oil pump: OEM
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Fuchs Titan Race Oil 5w30
Oil cooler: None
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Warning Devices: None
Engine #2 – Failure at Croft – Spun #1 rod bearingBottom end: Self rebuild. Reused block with 90k miles, Mahle Pistons, CP Carillo Rods. Crank reground +0.025mm. engine ran in on Dyno.
Top end: Stage 3 cams, uprated springs, MWR Valves, Titanium retainers
Bearings: ACL Racing +0.025mm
Oil pump: MWR uprated
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Miller's Oil 5W40 NT+
Oil Cooler: 13 Row Motamec.
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Electronic Accusump installed (set to engage at 25PSI)
Warning Devices: Accusump discharge warning (illuminates if accusump discharges). Oil temp gauge.
Engine #3 – Failure at Knockhill (to be confirmed but sounds like a rod bearing)Bottom end: Professional Rebuild. Unused block sourced via MWR. New OEM Rods and Pistons. Crank reground +0.025mm. Crank and Flywheel balanced. Engine ran in on Dyno.
Top end: OEM Cams. uprated springs, MWR Valves, Titanium retainers
Bearings: ACL Racing +0.025mm
Oil pump: MWR uprated
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Miller's Oil 5W40 NT+
Oil Cooler: 13 Row Motamec.
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Electronic Accusump installed (set to engage at 25PSI)
Warning Devices: Accusump discharge warning (illuminates if accusump discharges). Oil temp gauge. Electronic Oil Pressure Warning Light (40 PSI).
(I can't properly hear as I had headphones in and pit comms, drove this longer than I should have).
I used a MWR dip stick kit on all 3 applications. With the sump off, the bottom of the dip stick is clearly showing oil level marks are above the uplift pipe.
Oil level is checked after every session. Accusump also pre-oils engine before start up.
On failure 2 and 3 (filmed in 4k), the gauge never appears to drop, nor warning lights ever come on. I'm confident there was no drop in pressure shown. Failure 1 was filmed in 720p and was never able to determine.
Oil temperature is typically about 130°c on track. Oil pressures are typically 60-80PSI cold idle, dropping to 20PSI warm idle. 40-80PSI on track has been the range warm and at at revs across all 3 engines.
So my questions? What is causing this? Does the 2ZZ have a particular penchant for spinning bearings? #1 main and #1 rod seem to be where these happen most often. You don't see too many 2ZZs at track, but they do seem to have a high failure rate.
Bad luck?
Bad driving?
Bad oil?
Some sort of set up issue?
Is the 2ZZ just a bad track engine?
In my experience with heavy track work the 2ZZ-GE is a very robust engine. Yes, I've had 2 bottom end failures but these were both man made. First one due it an incorrectly spaced dipstick, the second my fault as I money shifted 5th to 2nd at 100mph.
The engine I money shifted was on 155k miles and was in a right state internally given it was ran on non-synthetic all its life, it was varnished to hell but it still ran fine and took thousands of miles of track abuse. Even after the money shift the engine still ran and got me 5 miles off track, as did the first engine with low oil.
For me from the outside looking in your issues look like they are caused by set-up, there's no way your luck can be that bad. Your driving is fine, more mechanically sympathetic then I am for sure.
If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use an standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.
Quote from: JB21 on June 13, 2023, 08:41I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.
Factor in well used engines and it becomes even more impressive!
Quote from: JB21 on June 13, 2023, 08:41In my experience with heavy track work the 2ZZ-GE is a very robust engine. Yes, I've had 2 bottom end failures but these were both man made. First one due it an incorrectly spaced dipstick, the second my fault as I money shifted 5th to 2nd at 100mph.
The engine I money shifted was on 155k miles and was in a right state internally given it was ran on non-synthetic all its life, it was varnished to hell but it still ran fine and took thousands of miles of track abuse. Even after the money shift the engine still ran and got me 5 miles off track, as did the first engine with low oil.
For me from the outside looking in your issues look like they are caused by set-up, there's no way your luck can be that bad. Your driving is fine, more mechanically sympathetic then I am for sure.
If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use an standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.
Those are just the engines with spun bearings tbf.
I've also lost a completely OEM engine to a dropped valve and an engine to a failed injector (that I refused to retire in torrential rain as I was running well, even on 3...... And scored the cylinder very badly).
I'm still pondering what to do. Even a high mile 2ZZ is selling for silly money just now. I've not seen anything under £1500 and realistically near me for a long long time.
I've had 5 engines and did about 500 track miles in total.
Quote from: JB21 on June 13, 2023, 08:41If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use a standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.
I've advocated this setup to
@AJRFulton a couple of times now.
In my opinion, this is the way to go.
The 2ZZ is already nearing its full performance capability from the factory IMHO. Chasing a few BHP by adding cams, more ignition advance and lower AFRs is a false economy.
My experience is this:
2ZZ engine now running for over 10 years. Countless trackdays.
Oil changed religiously every 3K miles or less with Gulf Competition 15w-50 Racing Ester Fully Synthetic Engine Oil. OEM oil filters. EP sump and MWR dipstick tube (with 1ZZ dipstick).
My hunch is that your oil is too thin (again, possibly chasing BHP?).
I've had loads of people tell me that I'm running too thick an oil, and that I'm losing power. I don't care. I'd rather sacrifice 2BHP and not have to keep replacing engines.
That's my 2p.
I did think Alex and JB21 would have some good input on this.
I know your engines have been run in on a Dyno, but so they get any road miles before hand?
Obviously theres a few trains of thought for engine running in, slow and steady, Dyno route or just beat on it straight away.
How do the Elise boys get on with them?
I'm with the guys on stretching the NA tuning of a 2zz, I do think they are at their limit NA wise.
I'm not into oil etc like the others are, I think JB21 works in the industry? But I generally go for the tried and tested route.
I do feel your pain though, if I was you I'd chuck in a standard 2zz with oil pan etc to give it one last go.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 13, 2023, 09:52I've advocated this setup to @AJRFulton a couple of times now.
In my opinion, this is the way to go.
The 2ZZ is already nearing its full performance capability from the factory IMHO. Chasing a few BHP by adding cams, more ignition advance and lower AFRs is a false economy.
My experience is this:
2ZZ engine now running for over 10 years. Countless trackdays.
Oil changed religiously every 3K miles or less with Gulf Competition 15w-50 Racing Ester Fully Synthetic Engine Oil. OEM oil filters. EP sump and MWR dipstick tube (with 1ZZ dipstick).
My hunch is that your oil is too thin (again, possibly chasing BHP?).
I've had loads of people tell me that I'm running too thick an oil, and that I'm losing power. I don't care. I'd rather sacrifice 2BHP and not have to keep replacing engines.
That's my 2p.
I'll be running the Apexi PFC once I get around to it, not for power gains mind but to optimize AFR's as mine was running very rich when it was dyno'd last year. Optimizing AFR's with naturally gain a few HP which is just a bonus.
As for the thick vs standard grade oil, there's no real proof that thicker oil is safer. My take is that if the engine is tight and within tolerances then 5W 40 perfectly fine, if an older bad condition/out of tolerance engine like my 155k mile unit then yes a 15w 50 would be a sensible option. Lotus recommend 5w 40 for track use with the 2ZZ, that's good enough for me.
Thicker oils are better at maintaining both oil pressure and film strength at higher loads and temperatures.
Each to their own, but I would always advocate running the thickest oil you can reasonably use (for track work, not for a 100% roadgoing car).
The loss of BHP and slightly increased engine wear on a cold start is more than made up for by peace of mind and reliability for me.
I am going with Rogues recommendation of Miller's CFS NT+ 5W40. Lotus recommends this grade for track use too. I think the consensus is this is one of the very best oils of that grade you can easily buy.
Car can only be ran in on a Dyno as it isn't road legal.
As for BHP (or torque rather, I'm not fussed about top end power - I'm limited in my series by peak power to weight ratio) this is the conundrum.
Everyone else in my class is doing things to their engine. I know that the mid range torque gain from cams is worth approx 1.5s around Knockhill - and the spread of the field in my class is 2-3 seconds. It's giving up a lot.
I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.
To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 13, 2023, 10:33I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.
To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.
I think this maybe how it goes.
I am nervous about what the extra 75kg does though.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 13, 2023, 10:33I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.
To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.
The K20 seems to take internal mods reliably. From what I have see elsewhere if you mess with both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ they have a history of prematurely failing even on the street. Spun bearings and dropped valves.
Did three engines. 1 oil filter came undone, other 2 dropped valves. All were 150,000 mile engines. Took the plunge and had a good running engine rebuilt . Since then no issues, 199 bhp, different cams , accusump, elise parts sump. With me i put it down to old poorly maintained engines
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 18:10I think this maybe how it goes.
I am nervous about what the extra 75kg does though.
Que?
It's only a few KGs more:
Engine weights (https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/engine-weights-stock-2zz-k-swap-2gr-etc.157986/)
Have you considered a built 1ZZ? Lower rpms, but you can end up with not too much less power without mega amounts of work. Plus they're dirt cheap.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 13, 2023, 22:52Que?
It's only a few KGs more:
Engine weights (https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/engine-weights-stock-2zz-k-swap-2gr-etc.157986/)
I did make a typo - 45kg
My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.
It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving it. I'm very keen to keep this trait.
The weight v balance concern is the only thing that puts me off a K20 - everything else seems better.
Do we know of any track regulars who've experienced both the 2ZZ and the K20 on track? I'd be keen to speak to them to ask questions. I do know a lotus owner who made the change and said it did effect the cars balance a bit.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 14, 2023, 10:50I did make a typo - 45kg
My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.
It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving, the car is great at keeping forward momentum.
The weight v balance concern is the only thing that puts me off a K20 - everything else seems better.
Do we know of any track regulars who've experienced both the 2ZZ and the K20 on track? I'd be keen to speak to them to ask questions. I do know a lotus owner who made the change and said it did effect the cars balance a bit.
It will affect the dynamics of the car no doubt. Techno spirit MRS owner Spirits Taro was asked about the K20 in a ZZW30 chassis and say exactly this, to much added weight affecting the balance at the limit. K20 would be fine for the average track dayer but for you and I who drive on the limit it would need a lot of adjustment to our driving style. This is why I chuckle at the V6 guys who say the heavier engine and box doesn't affect dynamics, it does massively. The ZZW30 chassis was not designed for an additional 50-100kg extra weight at the rear.
I've also noticed on the K20 swaps the the engine seems to be off center towards the offside, this again will affect the balance of the car.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 14, 2023, 10:50I did make a typo - 45kg
My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.
It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving it. I'm very keen to keep this trait.
Not wanting to get into a massive debate about chassis balance, but I've always found my car to oversteer progressively and predictably.
Here's a couple of laps in my car at Silverstone GP in the sopping wet on some questionable (in the wet at least Bridgestone RE002 tyres).
Forgive the massively over exposed video, but you can hopefully see that I had bags of time to recognise (and react to) the admittedly quite frequent oversteer moments, a trait that a wet track magnifies:
The MR2 is great fun on wet track days, most fun I've had in the cars been on damp tracks without a laptimer in sight, but in competition I find it can be a handful if trying to get a good lap time in the damp, particularly up against good FWD machinery with decent drivers.
My set up in the dry is usually front end limited for grip. In the wet the car is always rear end limited.
I can induce predictable oversteer in the wet or dry, it's fine to live with it. It's the unpredictable stuff, in the dry, at 100mph that is the problem. The MR2 quickly goes from planted to spinning backwards - as do all MR cars.
For example, last weekend, during the warm up session, trying to find the grip limit - I had a big spin at Knockhill Reverse over the top of Duffus at about 95mph going by the GPS. Car had felt planted, doing its usual gentle understeer on power, washing out to the exit. Until something unsettled the car and it went from planted understeer to oversteer and a 360° pirouette and saying prayers.
You're getting fuel wash are you? Did you check the oil after the events, seems something in your setup must be contributing to the early demise.
As suggested above I'd find a used 2ZZ preferably in a car so you can drive it about a bit, pull the engine and send it with your big wing sump.
A cheaper alternative to Honda K20 might be a Zurawski VAG BAM or the Toyota 2AR.
I don't know the regs for your race series but assuming if you are running a 2ZZ it is open mods.
Sorry I'm a bit too far away to offer material help
Quote from: JB21 on June 14, 2023, 11:44This is why I chuckle at the V6 guys who say the heavier engine and box doesn't affect dynamics, it does massively. The ZZW30 chassis was not designed for an additional 50-100kg extra weight at the rear.
Can only say it as I see it.
I've owned a v6 mr2 and I've been in others. As a road car it was a fabulous thing. Perhaps it makes for a poor track or motorsport proposition on this I'd have no idea as I've never partaken.
The extra weight is within the wheelbase and never bothered me.
On the 2zz Alex seems to be one of the few who haven't experienced any problems.
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 14, 2023, 22:00Can only say it as I see it.
I've owned a v6 mr2 and I've been in others. As a road car it was a fabulous thing. Perhaps it makes for a poor track or motorsport proposition on this I'd have no idea as I've never partaken.
The extra weight is within the wheelbase and never bothered me.
On the 2zz Alex seems to be one of the few who haven't experienced any problems.
I can imagine a V6 would be great on the road where your not pushing limits, but on track pushing 10 tenths I would imagine it would be a real handful. I'm sure Jayemm done a track test of a V6 and wasn't impressed at all. Saying that I bet you could tune the chassis to accommodate a V6 but it would needs some expert level of tunning with dampers, springs, roll bars etc and lots of aero.
On the 2zz to only issues I've had were all man made to which any engine would have suffered bottom end damage.
I've no technical knowledge here, but how long does an engine need to experience oil starvation or pressure drop to actually spin or damage a bearing?
Are we talking <1 second? several seconds? Etc?
Both my warning systems (gauge and warning light) take about 1-2 seconds to respond to a sustained pressure drop (i.e pushing engine kill switch). Obviously that is a total pressure loss as oil pump has stopped - I don't think the system would notice if I had a pressure drop for 2-3 secs but some oil was still getting through.
Is there any technical reason why #1 rod and #1 main seem to nearly always be the bearings that fail - not just with me, but the wider community I'm aware of having the issue.
At Croft, I have seen first hand 4x 2ZZ engines that spun bearings at almost the exact same place (Hawthorn into Tower - both high G right handers). All #1 rod bearings too.
As a side note, I agree with JB21 about you can probably tune the chassis around things. The 2ZZ is a pretty lightweight engine + box, and doesn't change the car much from what it was designed with the 1ZZ. However the strength of the car is it's chassis balance - one of, if not the , best balanced cars you can get track ready for its price point. You're getting into lotus money before you get things obviously better (and available).
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2023, 09:52I've no technical knowledge here, but how long does an engine need to experience oil starvation or pressure drop to actually spin or damage a bearing?
Are we talking <1 second? several seconds? Etc?
At 8000rpm <1s is all it takes. This is why I dont bother with a oil pressue gauge as by the time you realise its already to late.
Potentially would the number 1 bearing be under more load than the other 3 due to the crank pulley being nearest to it?
I know it "shouldn't" make any difference but it's the biggest variance from the rest.
Quote from: JB21 on June 15, 2023, 10:26At 8000rpm <1s is all it takes. This is why I dont bother with a oil pressue gauge as by the time you realise its already to late.
This is where I think I've went wrong. At Knockhill Reverse the section Chicane/Butchers does hit the limiter in 3rd, but the car is twice on 2 wheels, once fairly significantly, with kerbs - the oil will slosh a lot. You can't upshift due to continuous cornering load, any attempt to go to 4th with result in a high speed spin.
Thing is, how do you prevent this?
I drained the oil last night and got 7 litres out. With residual, that is correct amount with accusump. There is a sparkle in the oil. The dipstick with Accusump charge is showing about 1mm above full, which corresponds to the very top of the sump. With the Accusump discharged it takes it significantly over full.
I'll try get the sump off over weekend to see damage.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2023, 10:50This is where I think I've went wrong. At Knockhill Reverse the section Chicane/Butchers does hit the limiter in 3rd, but the car is twice on 2 wheels, once fairly significantly, with kerbs - the oil will slosh a lot. You can't upshift due to continuous cornering load, any attempt to go to 4th with result in a high speed spin.
Thing is, how do you prevent this?
I drained the oil last night and got 7 litres out. With residual, that is correct amount with accusump. There is a sparkle in the oil. The dipstick with Accusump charge is showing about 1mm above full, which corresponds to the very top of the sump. With the Accusump discharged it takes it significantly over full.
I'll try get the sump off over weekend to see damage.
Only real way is to short shift to 4th and or not bounce off the kerbs, both will lose a few tenths but it'll save your engine going forward. Do you not have a magnetic sump plug? Both my blown engines had a lot of bearing material attached to them when removed.
Quote from: JB21 on June 15, 2023, 12:16Only real way is to short shift to 4th and or not bounce off the kerbs, both will lose a few tenths but it'll save your engine going forward. Do you not have a magnetic sump plug? Both my blown engines had a lot of bearing material attached to them when removed.
I do have a magnetic sump plug. But nothing significant on it. I have found that with the EP sump though, big debris doesn't tend to go to the drain point, it gets stuck in the baffles.
As for short shifting. I did experiment in the practice sessions but found short shifting on a steep uphill section lost 0.4-0.5s - kinda boils into the frustration with the C6X gear ratios we've spoken about before. I find a lot of sections and corners on tracks too fast for third, too slow for 4th and the 2ZZ has to keep in the power band to be quick. I find myself wanting gear 3.5 a lot.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2023, 12:46I do have a magnetic sump plug. But nothing significant on it. I have found that with the EP sump though, big debris doesn't tend to go to the drain point, it gets stuck in the baffles.
As for short shifting. I did experiment in the practice sessions but found short shifting on a steep uphill section lost 0.4-0.5s - kinda boils into the frustration with the C6X gear ratios we've spoken about before. I find a lot of sections and corners on tracks too fast for third, too slow for 4th and the 2ZZ has to keep in the power band to be quick. I find myself wanting gear 3.5 a lot.
What size rear tyres do you use? If on something like 225/45/15 you could up to a 225/45/16 to increase the FD ratio to increase in gear speeds, I do this in mine as I find the in gear speeds of the C6X on 15" rears not great for the tracks I do. Going from a 225/45/15 to a 225/45/16 would gain you an extra 4mph in 3rg gear which could mean all the difference.
I'm 225/45/16's on the rear 225/50/15 on the front
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 15, 2023, 13:27I'm 225/45/16's on the rear 225/50/15 on the front
Ahh OK, you could go to a 17" rear, this is why I have bought the Lotus wheels to go 225/45/17 but this adds weight or go down to a 225/45/15 so you have better acceleration in 4th.
Or you could go the opposite way, save unsprung mass, and fit a shorter final drive.
My take on it is that while i dont think the 2zz is particularly great engine it should if everything is in good health easy handle what your asking from it and i think some other factors have caused your failures, finding out what exactly may not be easy!
First thing i would say i think the 130deg oil temp is a touch high especially if that is oil in sump temp? while modern oils will handle that i will be getting near its limits and thin in my opinion, ive always tried to keep my oil temps 100-110c and if going much more come in to cool down (easy on a trackday of course) but i would look at improving the cooling if getting that on a race car where you cant come in when it gets too hot.
I initially bought my MR2 to do the 2zz swap after being impressed at a sprint event with one that had been converted, after buying the car and doing more research i realised it was a bit of a lottery on used engines and ended up going turbo 1zz which of course had other issues but was a fun journey while it lasted.
Going forward as other have said if you can find a reasonably well looked after used 2zz engine preferably in the car so you can drive it and gauge condition etc thats easiest way as you have everything else already, but if you wanted to increase the reliability a honda motor is a good shout, i did look at doing a b18 into my car rather than a k20 but finding one of those at sensible money is even harder!
I've had my share of VTEC motors (B16A, B16A2, B18C, B18C6, K20A).
They are all good engines. B16 is a bit short of torque, but makes a lovely noise. B18 is strong (stronger than a 2ZZ IMHO) and K20A is a step-and-a-half on from B-Series.
I would place the 2ZZ between the B16 and the B18 interns of power. Kind of like a B17.
The ONE thing that I couldn't tolerate about all those engines was oil consumption/burning.
Even the healthiest VTEC will get through circa 500ml oil on a trackday in my experience.
Not only does it make me paranoid, it also makes you look a bit shit trailing smoke behind you when giving it some poke. Stinks too.
(At least my) 2ZZ doesn't consume any oil between or on trackdays. That a very good sign of a very healthy engine.
I was lucky neither of the B18 motor Tegs ( 1 x Si and 1 x Type-R) ive had used much oil but was a long time ago and were quite new then, the DC2 Type-R was epic on track if a little frustrating on road after coming from a Evo prior to it so i wasnt used to dropping 2 cogs everytime i wanted to overtake!lol... on track where always above 6k it was a proper hoot and still the most fun ive had around Knockill in the rain :) that motor in a MR2 i think would be awesome, ive not been in many K20 cars but never felt very special to me at least stock, unlike the teg.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 16, 2023, 11:39My take on it is that while i dont think the 2zz is particularly great engine it should if everything is in good health easy handle what your asking from it and i think some other factors have caused your failures, finding out what exactly may not be easy!
First thing i would say i think the 130deg oil temp is a touch high especially if that is oil in sump temp? while modern oils will handle that i will be getting near its limits and thin in my opinion, ive always tried to keep my oil temps 100-110c and if going much more come in to cool down (easy on a trackday of course) but i would look at improving the cooling if getting that on a race car where you cant come in when it gets too hot.
I initially bought my MR2 to do the 2zz swap after being impressed at a sprint event with one that had been converted, after buying the car and doing more research i realised it was a bit of a lottery on used engines and ended up going turbo 1zz which of course had other issues but was a fun journey while it lasted.
Going forward as other have said if you can find a reasonably well looked after used 2zz engine preferably in the car so you can drive it and gauge condition etc thats easiest way as you have everything else already, but if you wanted to increase the reliability a honda motor is a good shout, i did look at doing a b18 into my car rather than a k20 but finding one of those at sensible money is even harder!
Every 2ZZ I've used (6 of them now) has got up to 130° in competition, track days a little cooler as you're not as 100% on it for 20 minutes.
I now measure temp from oil cooler inlet, I used to measure from sandwich plate, and before that the sump
I'm running a 13 Row cooler and also in this incarnation the OEM water cooler sandwich plate.
I measure oil pressure from the block immediately after the sandwich plates.
Most of my engines have used very little oil.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 17, 2023, 13:07Every 2ZZ I've used (6 of them now) has got up to 130° in competition
And they've all failed.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 17, 2023, 18:13And they've all failed.
What more do you do for cooling though?
I've put a cooler kit in, enlarged the ducts, bigger water radiator (water temps never get too bad - 90-95°C is normal - if it's really hot you might see it surpass 100°), bigger oil capacity, etc.
I reckon going through the cooler loses about 5°C
If you can't change the oil, change the oil.
But we've already been here 😉
Have you spoken to 7even Motorsports to see if they have any answers?
5 degree drop from oil cooler doesnt sound enough too me you should be able to get it down more than that as its practically doing nothing at moment, maybe plumbing issue or cooler isnt good enough quality or located in suitable location to get airflow, not easy on a rear engine though i know.
I wonder if there is a restriction in the oil cooler circuit which maybe a factor, did you change the cooler after 2nd engine failed ? im a firm believer that any engine failure that contaminated the oil it requires a new cooler as you can never clean them out properly, it could well be why engine 3 let go if you didnt replace it.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 19, 2023, 12:395 degree drop from oil cooler doesnt sound enough too me you should be able to get it down more than that as its practically doing nothing at moment, maybe plumbing issue or cooler isnt good enough quality or located in suitable location to get airflow, not easy on a rear engine though i know.
I wonder if there is a restriction in the oil cooler circuit which maybe a factor, did you change the cooler after 2nd engine failed ? im a firm believer that any engine failure that contaminated the oil it requires a new cooler as you can never clean them out properly, it could well be why engine 3 let go if you didnt replace it.
I bought the kit that plumbs it into the air duct to the right of the alternator - I put bigger scoops on the car to get more air in there too. The bigger scoops have worked in terms of cooling the air in the engine bay - seeing a few degrees lower air temps in there (I used to have an air temp reading - but did away with it).
Plumbed in with AN10 connections and braided pipes.
The actual oil cooler is Motomec 13 row - I would say it's adequate in terms of quality - although it's not premium. In terms of size it is realistically as big as it can be in that location.
I did inspect the oil cooler on changing, it seemed clean when blown out - then cleaned out with some brake cleaner - no debris or gunk, just golden oil.
Hmm ok i would 100% fit a new cooler and go for a better quality item and if you can try squeeze a couple more rows it all helps, if its only dropping 5 degrees its not doing its job so probably not of sufficient quality to my mind, if the oil was contaminated during a failure then there is a very good chance so was the cooler, you cant clean them out due to small pathways inside and just running oil through it is no real test as its not under pressure, hot and the vibrations like when its running in car, i would not be surprised if this is reason engine 3 failed.
Mine doesn't run too hot really, never seen it get over 130c even on longer stints in the hot months. My reading is taken from the oil filter sandwich plate.
Quote from: JB21 on June 20, 2023, 12:08Mine doesn't run too hot really, never seen it get over 130c even on longer stints in the hot months. My reading is taken from the oil filter sandwich plate.
Whats the normal sort of temp you see on track out of interest and do you have a cooler i cant remember ?
Quote from: thetyrant on June 20, 2023, 12:11Whats the normal sort of temp you see on track out of interest and do you have a cooler i cant remember ?
No cooler. Road temps 87-92 when pottering, track temps vary really, say 10-15 minute sessions at Aintree <120, at Oulton <125. Its when you push longer than 10-15 minutes they climb, but never seem to go over 130, but I dont take the piss and dont often stay out for +20 minutes at a time and if I do I'll always do a cool down lap or 2 before going for it again.
Car is also running a massive Mishimoto radiator, which may help temps on track.
I also have a big Mishimoto radiator, with a fabricated sheet aluminium tunnel channelling air. I find for water cooling it's great - never had any water temp issues. Maybe only get higher temps if I've had to stop the car quickly and can't run a cool down lap (i.e pulled in for scrutineering/weigh bridge). If running fast 90^C is normal water temperature.
If I'm racing it's 20 minutes of 100%, temps are always higher. On track days and Superlap - it's usually a couple of hot laps then cool down. Temperatures are less on these, but still 120ish.
I've had that temperature with different oils, cooler/no cooler, accusump/no accusump. The only constant is the thermometer - which admittedly isn't a high quality one. Although testing the sensors in a pot of hot water, both gauges (water and oil) read within +- 5% of each other. The oil gauge always has read a little higher than the water one in this test.
How have you got the cooler connected ? presuming a thermostatic sandwich plate? the fact youve had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working :)
Quote from: thetyrant on June 20, 2023, 14:11How have you got the cooler connected ? presuming a thermostatic sandwich plate? the fact youve had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working :)
connected via a greddy sandwich plate - no thermostat due to the application being track only.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 20, 2023, 14:11The fact you've had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working :)
Absolutely. 5 degree reduction is bugger all. I'd expect significantly more than that.
Would suggest you find out why.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 20, 2023, 15:58connected via a greddy sandwich plate - no thermostat due to the application being track only.
Really stupid question perhaps but, is it completely deleted? Not a chance perhaps that the cooler is stuck in closed state due to not having the thermostat? Or is the whole mechanism removed and it's just an open flow from block to input and output?
Aren't some of them one way as well?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 20, 2023, 16:57Really stupid question perhaps but, is it completely deleted? Not a chance perhaps that the cooler is stuck in closed state due to not having the thermostat? Or is the whole mechanism removed and it's just an open flow from block to input and output?
There's nothing there, it's just a basic sandwich plate. You can see air.
Quote from: AJRFulton on June 20, 2023, 18:24There's nothing there, it's just a basic sandwich plate. You can see air.
I did say it was a stupid question :) hehe
After 2 failures on track, it was time to go for a 2GR MR2. In the Lotus circles you see so few failures.
Quote from: Dudi on July 16, 2023, 15:58After 2 failures on track, it was time to go for a 2GR MR2. In the Lotus circles you see so few failures.
I do wonder why this is?
I know of 1 Lotus 2ZZ failure, at Croft, at the same corner where I know of 4 other failures - but that's it.
I'm not going to Croft if I wanna keep my engine!