Quote from: Petrus on June 12, 2023, 09:21Nuff said.

I am on 195 front because the slightly reduced understeer is to my tatse but the 185 steers more directly, period.

It's a good thing that understeering in a RWD car is a whole'nother ballgame. Much less objectionable/annoying than with FWD. With the MR2 and the Toyos I have, I haven't found it bad, and I press on! 

But how much less directly the 195s steer in your opinion? I know. Loaded question as it's very dificult to quantify and probably subjective. But I love "listening" to you gents here, with lots more experience in the spyder than I. 

195 is the widest I will go anyhow.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 07:36So you are running Firehawk Indy 500? Have you any experience with the PS3, AD08RS and Hankook mentioned here?

Yes Indy 500 and they are wonderful. 
I have experienced Hankook tires in the past not what is currently selling. I found them to have softer response than OEM. I have asked others that have the newer Hankook tires about the response and they said they were similar to the discontinued ones that I once had and in general a lot of grip but not enough feel.
The only Yokohama tires that I have experienced is the OEM tire. Like the OEM Bridgestones that came with the FL car they were very responsive and had great feel.
I would consider Yokohama to be a top tier manufacture of tires but they can have some lousy offerings.
Check out this recent post and you will see exactly what I mean.
https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/tire-review-advan-fleva-are-shyte.161136/#post-2203190

One of the worst tires that Yokohama put out with the ES100 which has long been discontinued. I helped a friend with a Miata and gave him some bad advice on purchasing this tire based on my OEM Yokohama experience and they were mush.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 07:37Nice site. Good read. Looked for reviews on the PS3. Only found a Pilot Sport vs Pilot Supersport comparision.

 From what I heard is the Pilot Sport series traditionally have the stiffer feel and that is the same with the Bridgestone and Yokohama tires with the 0 prefix in the model number. Oddly enough the OEM PFL tires also had the 0 prefix. 

The original poster of fleva are shyte is countered by those that commented.

I have them on my daily and now my 2.

Each to their own. But loving mine.
My new, go to tyre.

For me, it works as a complete package.

Quote from: Zens on June 12, 2023, 16:25It's a good thing that understeering in a RWD car is a whole'nother ballgame. Much less objectionable/annoying than with FWD. With the MR2 and the Toyos I have, I haven't found it bad, and I press on! 

But how much less directly the 195s steer in your opinion? I know. Loaded question as it's very dificult to quantify and probably subjective. But I love "listening" to you gents here, with lots more experience in the spyder than I. 

195 is the widest I will go anyhow.

´ís´ less objectionable is a matter of preference. I prefer less of it. Understeer is per definition more centrifugal force than traction with the traction not coping with the directional change indicated by the steering wheel = loss of feel.
A great many people líke the initial understeer and mostly neutral rest. For mé the corner entry is when I want to get the most accurate feed back about the traction available.
I also deleted the power steering for same reason mind.
Also the TRD Sportivo spring rate rear is 200% of the front whereas OEM (and the after market) has the rear springs 150% of front. This speeds up the response of the rear suspension to directional changes at the front. Same thing: Many find it more twitchy, some love the quicker response, quicker steering at the rear. Me the latter 

About 195 I expressed myself incorrectly: The slightly less direct response is not in the 195 width but in the slightly higher sidewall of a 195/55 vs a 185/55. The effect of that is akin a softer sidewall. Just that bit slower.
The 195 having just that bit better traction means also better directional tracking. Will go 195/50 next set. Has the correct load index too!
Hopefully just as quick responding as the 185 but with the better tracking of 195 width.

Quote from: Ardent on June 12, 2023, 23:17For me, it works as a complete package.

Véry curious about what you think of mine 

Quote from: Ardent on June 12, 2023, 23:17The original poster of fleva are shyte is countered by those that commented.

Which is why I don't look at individual's opinions.   

A few years ago when numerous people were using the original AD08's it was obvious that they were the dry grip leaders.  Then track users who wore them out tried the ADO8RS & reported a big change.  So they were collective opinions, & so therefore believable.

The Fleva has featured in Tests & not fared well, so I didn't consider them.

I know that reviews are flawed as well as user opinions because they can very greatly and that is the trap I have fallen into by trusting both blindly. You can almost never know what is a good choice for your needs. I have read Fleva was soft elsewhere so that post confirmed some of the other opinions on them. For some people it's not important and I am sure they have other attributes that make them good for people that like them. As long as it makes people happy that's all that matters.

What has worked for me is an overwhelming consensus if a tire has a stiff response or not. Thats how I found the tires I currently have and I got exactly what I wanted. I have asked others with tires they like how is the stiffness and they would say they are comfortable and just right for them for the kind of setup and driving style that suits them so there is nothing wrong with that but I know they will be tires I would cross off my list. The downside with hard tires is, it can be uncomfortable over rough roads which is a drawback but that does not bother me.  I can literally feel my suspension working on smooth roads.

The number one priority for me is that a tyre is predictable.
Woul dalmost prefer mediocre grip over good grip if not for stopping distance whuch for me is the major concern with traction, not performance.
Thén comes the directness, the feedback, ´stiffness´.

Mind, that is my fñun car.
For the more user friendly daily I shift comfort higher up to álmost stopping distance. Never mind sloppy ´navigating´.

WHen I firt got my little spider it was on no ´El Cheapo´ no-grip specials. I left them on to get t know the peculiarities of the car at lower speeds. Added over spec air and they ´improved´ in meign mores ersposnive, more predictable and... even less grip- The perfect learner set 
A few weeks later on a chilly but dry morning, going rather sideways though a local corner, the resident female observed the car (and I) could do with an upgrade so that was thát expense sorted.
Meanwhile she has paid for a new set of rears even.
My current set of fronts is cycled out but still quite good profile. Loath to refresh them but there is no escaping. On the bright side I can go to the lower ones yeahhhhh.
Btw. quite content with the new S version. Maybe, finger crossed, they will have more life cycles 

Quote from: Dev on June 12, 2023, 16:39From what I heard is the Pilot Sport series traditionally have the stiffer feel and that is the same with the Bridgestone and Yokohama tires with the 0 prefix in the model number. Oddly enough the OEM PFL tires also had the 0 prefix. 

As this is my fun car and I don't daily drive it, I think stiff wall tyres is the way to go.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 00:40A few years ago when numerous people were using the original AD08's it was obvious that they were the dry grip leaders.  Then track users who wore them out tried the ADO8RS & reported a big change.  So they were collective opinions, & so therefore believable.

The big change was for the better I hope?

Quote from: Petrus on June 12, 2023, 23:32´ís´ less objectionable is a matter of preference. I prefer less of it. Understeer is per definition more centrifugal force than traction with the traction not coping with the directional change indicated by the steering wheel = loss of feel.
A great many people líke the initial understeer and mostly neutral rest. For mé the corner entry is when I want to get the most accurate feed back about the traction available.
I also deleted the power steering for same reason mind.
Also the TRD Sportivo spring rate rear is 200% of the front whereas OEM (and the after market) has the rear springs 150% of front. This speeds up the response of the rear suspension to directional changes at the front. Same thing: Many find it more twitchy, some love the quicker response, quicker steering at the rear. Me the latter 

About 195 I expressed myself incorrectly: The slightly less direct response is not in the 195 width but in the slightly higher sidewall of a 195/55 vs a 185/55. The effect of that is akin a softer sidewall. Just that bit slower.
The 195 having just that bit better traction means also better directional tracking. Will go 195/50 next set. Has the correct load index too!
Hopefully just as quick responding as the 185 but with the better tracking of 195 width.

Understeer also can have a positive effect, specially for rear mid engine. But obviously too much of it is not good, as isn't too much oversteer. All I was saying is that the understeering I'm getting on stock suspension, stock PFL wheels and Toyo Proxe T1R tyres is not counterproductive. I can still push the car and it will still do what I want or ask of it. The understeering hasn't gotten in the way yet. But this is on dry, good weather only. If it's cold or wet, the MR2 stays home.

Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:08The big change was for the better I hope?

No.  I haven't driven either of them, but the original was high-grip, not great in wet & especially cold.  The new one has an 'eco' tag I believe.  It's no longer as grippy.  Unless you go to a semi-competition tyre you won't get old AD08 grip, I believe.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:18Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

I know (obviously); say 5 mm. higher/lower sidewall. Should also rub just a bit less 
Just dropped by at the tyre blokes 1 km down the road.
Íf they can get them and make me a nice price, hope to try the rubbers on the Portugal trip next week.

@RS vs R my experience on the road is that the grip of new RSs is better than that of cycled out but not quite worn out Rs.
Cannot tell about the max. traction. They are still    (better than the current fronts) and séém to hook up earlier.

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:18Understeer also can have a positive effect, specially for rear mid engine. But obviously too much of it is not good, as isn't too much oversteer. All I was saying is that the understeering I'm getting on stock suspension, stock PFL wheels and Toyo Proxe T1R tyres is not counterproductive. I can still push the car and it will still do what I want or ask of it. The understeering hasn't gotten in the way yet. But this is on dry, good weather only. If it's cold or wet, the MR2 stays home.

Interesting about the 185 vs 195. It will be interesting how you find the 195/50 vs 195/55. 195/55 is11m larger in diameter than the stock 185/55. While 195/50 goes the other way and is 9mm smaller in diameter than the stock 185/55. It will be interesting if the smaller diameter will have a positive effect.

Not getting involved too much, but I agree completely with understeer being useful in a MR car. More so than FWD anyway.

I've had the car set up to be on the understeer side of neutral. It gives positive initial turn in, then you can let the car wash out on exit after getting on the power early. You can judge exit speed by feel through the wheel. I've found this more consistent, kinder on rear tyres, and easier to manage tyre temps on track, but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 11:42but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

You naíled it! Thanks.

Also as mine had LSD set the Whitelines one hole stiffer rear (vs front) than the TRD Sportivo equivalents.

The imo ónly B side is taking a bit mor care with lifting the loud pedal in corners which is a bad idea anyway unless you wánt the rear to step out and then slide it. The handbrake sadly being an bit reliable for that: Living in proper mountains the interior local roads are só much fun but going down the hairpins are tricky with understeer and I am too chicken to gás it enough when the front starts to wash out with a ravine behind a low wall in front

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 13, 2023, 11:19No.  I haven't driven either of them, but the original was high-grip, not great in wet & especially cold.  The new one has an 'eco' tag I believe.  It's no longer as grippy.  Unless you go to a semi-competition tyre you won't get old AD08 grip, I believe.

But I guess still as stiff?

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 11:42Not getting involved too much, but I agree completely with understeer being useful in a MR car. More so than FWD anyway.

I've had the car set up to be on the understeer side of neutral. It gives positive initial turn in, then you can let the car wash out on exit after getting on the power early. You can judge exit speed by feel through the wheel. I've found this more consistent, kinder on rear tyres, and easier to manage tyre temps on track, but..... It's not as fun as the car feeling a bit edgier.

If I was doing track days for fun, or spirited road driving - I'd want the oversteer side of neutral.

Why the hesitation in getting involved?

Interesting input none the less.

Quote from: Petrus on June 13, 2023, 11:37I know (obviously); say 5 mm. higher/lower sidewall. Should also rub just a bit less 
Just dropped by at the tyre blokes 1 km down the road.
Íf they can get them and make me a nice price, hope to try the rubbers on the Portugal trip next week.

@RS vs R my experience on the road is that the grip of new RSs is better than that of cycled out but not quite worn out Rs.
Cannot tell about the max. traction. They are still    (better than the current fronts) and séém to hook up earlier.

Good to know. Well, I guess regardless of how the new RS are, we are stuck with them if one wants stiff side walls but OEM PFL sizes. But they still seem to be a great option.

So, this is what I have gathered so far from the conversations here, plus researching online regarding tyre options.

If I want to stay PFL:

• Yoko AD08RS. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. Seems to be nicely stiff and a great tyre. Most expensive of the bunch.
• Hankook Ventus prime K125. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. But doesn't seem to be as stiff. But is it soft? Much cheaper than the AD08RS though.
• Falken ZIEX ZE310 Ecorun. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. But seem on the softer side? Similar prices to the Hankook.

FL only:

• Michelin Pilot Sport 3. Have to live with 195/50 front. Correct 215/45/16 for the rear. Stiff and good reputation. Not much cheaper than AD08RS.

Wild Card:

• Uniroyal Rainsport 5. Available in OEM PFL sizes as well as FL. I read good reviews on them. Price seems not different than Hanook or Falken. But they seem to be stiffer. Saw a recommendation for them if one wants a tyre for both, daily driving and light track days. Never heard of Uniroyal. But if I get a second set of wheels for track only, I was thinking about them as a cheaper option for stiffer track tyres. As they seem to be stiffer than the other cheaper options (Falken, Hankook) but cheaper than PS3 and AD08RS. So would spare my more expensive tyres on the track, while still being fun on the track, according to some reports. Basically AD08RS or PS3 for the road fun. Rainsport 5 for track fun. Anybody tried them?

It would have to be light track days in anything less than quite damp conditions with Rainsports on.

They will overheat and melt with much of any spirited driving on a dry, patchy or 'a bit' damp track. However they are genuinely one of the best affordable road legal tyres on a very wet track (although not a patch on full wets).

On a scale of 0-10 where 0 is completely dry, 5 is the point where there its getting hard to see an obvious dry line, and 10 is the point where the red flags are out - I wouldn't be considering Rainsports until 6 or 7. 

Quote from: Zens on June 13, 2023, 11:59But I guess still as stiff?

and in case of doubt rub´m lightly with

Read tests read tests read tests.  The only thing that Rainsport test well at is aquaplaning resistance.  The track guys that can afford two sets of tyres use them in the wet only.  K125 are not soft.  Maybe not as stiff as ADO8RS.  More agile than the Falken.  Both available in pfl & FL sizes.

Quote from: AJRFulton on June 13, 2023, 13:02It would have to be light track days in anything less than quite damp conditions with Rainsports on.

They will overheat and melt with much of any spirited driving on a dry, patchy or 'a bit' damp track. However they are genuinely one of the best affordable road legal tyres on a very wet track (although not a patch on full wets).

On a scale of 0-10 where 0 is completely dry, 5 is the point where there its getting hard to see an obvious dry line, and 10 is the point where the red flags are out - I wouldn't be considering Rainsports until 6 or 7. 

Thanks! Great to know. I guess Rainsports are out then. Somebody posted them as alternative to the Toyos TR1s saying the Rainsport is much better and that they are great for daily and light track days. Didn't mention anything about wet. Then I googled and found some positive feedback about them. Oh well, They are out.

Any good tyres for the track which won't brake the bank? Since I will burn them around the track I don't feel like paying AD08RS or PS3 money for them. But it needs to be road legal tyres as I need to drive to the track on them.

Rainsports have a soft sidewall, ideal for wet tracks but yes in the dry they get smashed pretty quickly.
Fantastic tyre for the road though.