Makes even more difficult when the same manufacturer markets the same tyre differently in different regions.
The link in the previous post was for yokohama.com.AU

From the EU site
https://www.yokohama.eu/en/V701/?tx_tyre_pi1%5Bdiameter%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bindex%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bratio%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bspeed%5D=&tx_tyre_pi1%5Bwidth%5D=&cHash=31207813eb6f4c716c5940cadbe88ba2
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Got to love marketing terminology; the El Cheapo no-grip tyres my car came on had emotional handling too 

The marketing can be hyperbolic and misleading at times however even though the link is from AU it does categorize the tires and it compares them like for like with its attribute designation or lack there of for the prospective customer. On the link you posted was interesting because I was trying to find where you can have a comparison between the models for its performance attributes but it was not there except for each individual tire.
 
For three tires I found this. 
"Superior handling performance which is easy to control" ADVAN A052
 "Stability and fast response during high-speed driving" for the ADVAN NEOVA AD08RS
 "New structure with improved casing rigidity"  for the ADVAN NEOVA AD09
 
 Optimization sounds like they did the best they could for the specific tire.

It's all somewhat meaningless unless the tires are compared for like for like.  I am sure the Flevas are a great tire for 90% of owners that drive on the street.
I have no issue with them except that it would not be something that would meet my needs and I am sure more then 70% of people would not like my tires and would find them uncomfortable because they are quiet involving.
 
 The improved casing rigidity on one of the tires interested me so I did a little more research and found that they added more plys to the internal structure to make the tire more rigid but there is a limit for a street tire to be legal. My guess is fuel efficiency due to rolling resistance. 
   I do know that stiff tires on the whole weigh more and with more rolling resistance so there is another disadvantage that can creep into the handling with more unsprung weight. 

No idea which post in the multitude of tyre related posts I have commented on.

But somewhere I said previously.

For all the info on a tyre wall and there is a lot.

There is no industry standard or value for the stiffness of the tyre wall on the tyre.

In knives we have the rockwell scale of hardness for the steel used in the knife, but no such scale for tyre walls.

Quote from: Ardent on June 15, 2023, 22:49No idea which post in the multitude of tyre related posts I have commented on.

But somewhere I said previously.

For all the info on a tyre wall and there is a lot.

There is no industry standard or value for the stiffness of the tyre wall on the tyre.

In knives we have the rockwell scale of hardness for the steel used in the knife, but no such scale for tyre walls.

I wish there was. It would make it a lot easier to choose tires for my needs.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on June 15, 2023, 08:56Pleased to read you've made a decision.

Goodyear & Sumitomo used to be in partnership of the Dunlop brand, but ended it. Most of Europe's Dunlop are Sumitomo.
The US tyres are Goodyear-produced.

I have Falken F510 on a BMW that generates huge grip. They replaced Michelin. No lack of grip.  If they were made in MR2 sizes I'd buy them for it.

I'd never heard of Hankook 5 years ago. They sponsor racing series (I don't know if used in it) & they are fitted as O/E by manufacturers.

I guess it's possible for a mid range or even budget brand to elevate itself to premium with time and effort. As long as it's just not magazine hype generated by undisclosed paid adds disguised as articles or reviews. Lexus did just that with Toyota, bringing them from a mainstream , midrange brand you could say, to the absolute top of the best of the best. The latest example are the Korean cars. Nobody laughs them out of the room anymore.

Hankook seems to be in a limbo of sorts there. Depends who you ask they are premium or midrange. I myself would have thought Toyo and Yokohama would be above.

Quote from: leomrs on June 15, 2023, 03:36Track orientated setup - I'm ok losing some steering feel for a quicker lap time. And yes my front's are unfortunately a little more stretched than I'd like as the wheel I went for isn't offered in 7J and it's hard to justify larger track tyre sizes when the car spends most of its time on the road.

I can see where you are coming from. I guess it depends on what track experience you are looking for.

To me, the track is just a chance to get to know my car better and an opportunity to push it in a way I would never and could never do on public roads. A chance to make me a better driver and a better driver for the particular car. All the while having as much fun as I can. So steering feeling is definitely important to me on the track too.  But lap times and any competition is totally unimportant and off the radar.

Quote from: Petrus on June 15, 2023, 21:04Got to love marketing terminology; the El Cheapo no-grip tyres my car came on had emotional handling too 

My number one rule when buying anything is, NEVER believe marketing.

Quote from: Dev on June 15, 2023, 22:27The marketing can be hyperbolic and misleading at times however even though the link is from AU it does categorize the tires and it compares them like for like with its attribute designation or lack there of for the prospective customer. On the link you posted was interesting because I was trying to find where you can have a comparison between the models for its performance attributes but it was not there except for each individual tire.
 
For three tires I found this. 
"Superior handling performance which is easy to control" ADVAN A052
 "Stability and fast response during high-speed driving" for the ADVAN NEOVA AD08RS
 "New structure with improved casing rigidity"  for the ADVAN NEOVA AD09
 
 Optimization sounds like they did the best they could for the specific tire.

It's all somewhat meaningless unless the tires are compared for like for like.  I am sure the Flevas are a great tire for 90% of owners that drive on the street.
I have no issue with them except that it would not be something that would meet my needs and I am sure more then 70% of people would not like my tires and would find them uncomfortable because they are quiet involving.
 
 The improved casing rigidity on one of the tires interested me so I did a little more research and found that they added more plys to the internal structure to make the tire more rigid but there is a limit for a street tire to be legal. My guess is fuel efficiency due to rolling resistance. 
  I do know that stiff tires on the whole weigh more and with more rolling resistance so there is another disadvantage that can creep into the handling with more unsprung weight.

This Fleva off topic argument must have started before my time. It seems quite deeply rooted.

But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

To me at least, worrying about comfort in a MR2 spyder is like worrying about calories if you are eating at McDonalds. For this reason since the start of this, I'm trying to gravitate towards tyres that will afford me the best possible performance on the road, with the best possible sporting driving feeling. Comfort is like, at the bottom of the pile of priorities. I actually can't think of a single thing which would be bellow comfort in a MR2 spyder, for me.  I know to each his own. The same goes for the argument of lack of practicality, for me. If I want practical and comfortable I would never buy a MR2 spyder.

Quote from: Dev on June 15, 2023, 14:03Having previously used Falken summer tires I felt the sidewalls were ok but nothing like the Firestones I have now. Having said that I will never downgrade to tires that are less than the stiffness I have now so the Falkens are off my list. Grip is important but all of the tires in the same category are over fulfilled for my needs so its not as important. A tire with a weak sidewall is so disappointing but for others I am sure they would not notice or the stiff sidewall would have the opposite effect where they seek comfort.

Too much grip can spoil a bit of the fun IMO. I think a balance is where it's at with anything involving a sports car. So the argument for the Flevas is grip?

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:27But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

They work at lower temperatures, pump more water and are more silent. They are quite good, just more all weather not track day ones. Horses for courses so it does not do to jusdge them as no good because they are not supersommers.
They are supposed to be as predictable as AD08RS so win-win for more generic use at a better price. Actaully win³ 

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:17To me, the track is just a chance to get to know my car better and an opportunity to push it in a way I would never and could never do on public roads. A chance to make me a better driver and a better driver for the particular car. All the while having as much fun as I can. So steering feeling is definitely important to me on the track too.  But lap times and any competition is totally unimportant and off the radar.

I have raced for mány years and find it has basically nothing to do with the public road. It definitely does nót make yu a better driver.
Tracks are way better maintained with better tarmac and there is nothing real world cluttering it. No street furniture, no diesel/oil, no pedestrians, no kamikaze cyclist, nobody coming round the blind corner in front like a bat out of its cave on YOUR side. And that is just scratiching the surface.
You don´t even learn how your car behaves because there is no real world surface.

Imo the closest you can get to learn about your car is finding an idustrial estate on an early non working day and let it all hang out, simulating things going wrong, correcting mistakes made on purpose. Emergency brake in various circumstance, pull the handbrake, lift off brusquely when cornering.
Imo riding a motorcycle through an average wet chily winter is thé best for training good drivers. Controling a car is the easy bit in the real world.
Being a good driver on the public road is ALL about:
- anticipating
- maintaining/managing safety margins

This is why set ups good for track are in a nutshell USELESS on real world roads.
Tracks and numbers are why modern ´sports´cars are silly powerful/fast and úseless on real world roads.

Anyway, whichéver tyres are the contact with the road, théy are the begin and end all of the margins you need to respect. Go explore the limits somewhere real. The track is a different place altogether that does not teach you much. A (anti) skid course or advanced drivers (police) one with yoúr car does.

Rant over 

p.s.
This



is a wonderful example. Two celebrated rally race drivers and their book is about... anticipating, margins. Delightful read about what nowadays is no longer tought in driving lessons.

Quote from: Petrus on June 16, 2023, 07:49They work at lower temperatures, pump more water and are more silent. They are quite good, just more all weather not track day ones. Horses for courses so it does not do to jusdge them as no good because they are not supersommers.
They are supposed to be as predictable as AD08RS so win-win for more generic use at a better price. Actaully win³ 

I didn't judge them as no good though. But now I got what the deal is. Thanks.

To me, since I won't drive on the wet, let alone rain, I guess those aren't advantages. So for my case only the cheaper price would be attractive. But since the AD08RS is more fitting to my needs, easy decision for me.

As for a silent tyre, the engine is "inside the cabin with you". That ship has sailed.

For complete understanding, the AD08RS is éxcellent in the rain, just not a full wet, so drwas the line at standing water.
What I particularly ñike in the wet is that like on dry it does nothing súddenly.

I just had my new fronts fitted. Still lóts of profile but simply heat cycled out. Tant pis.

Quote from: Petrus on June 16, 2023, 08:27I have raced for mány years and find it has basically nothing to do with the public road. It definitely does nót make yu a better driver.
Tracks are way better maintained with better tarmac and there is nothing real world cluttering it. No street furniture, no diesel/oil, no pedestrians, no kamikaze cyclist, nobody coming round the blind corner in front like a bat out of its cave on YOUR side. And that is just scratiching the surface.
You don´t even learn how your car behaves because there is no real world surface.

Imo the closest you can get to learn about your car is finding an idustrial estate on an early non working day and let it all hang out, simulating things going wrong, correcting mistakes made on purpose. Emergency brake in various circumstance, pull the handbrake, lift off brusquely when cornering.
Imo riding a motorcycle through an average wet chily winter is thé best for training good drivers. Controling a car is the easy bit in the real world.
Being a good driver on the public road is ALL about:
- anticipating
- maintaining/managing safety margins

This is why set ups good for track are in a nutshell USELESS on real world roads.
Tracks and numbers are why modern ´sports´cars are silly powerful/fast and úseless on real world roads.

Anyway, whichéver tyres are the contact with the road, théy are the begin and end all of the margins you need to respect. Go explore the limits somewhere real. The track is a different place altogether that does not teach you much. A (anti) skid course or advanced drivers (police) one with yoúr car does.

Rant over 

p.s.
This



is a wonderful example. Two celebrated rally race drivers and their book is about... anticipating, margins. Delightful read about what nowadays is no longer tought in driving lessons.

Well, that is an opinion, and a strong one at that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Or maybe not, as you came at this totally from the wrong side. Maybe once you see the side I'm coming from, we will even agree.

You took "better driver" as in safer, better able to navigate traffic, whatever. But this is not what I meant. I meant a better driver as in being able to extract more from the car. Hence why I said, better driver for the particular car.

As for roads, I'm not sure how the roads are where you are. The UK is notorious for having "bad" roads. At least everybody there always complains about it online and the few times I was, I have to agree somewhat. But the roads here in comparison are awesome! It was one of the first things I noticed when I moved here. Kind of helps to make it easier to live with the very tough anti tuning and anti car mod'ing rules here.

Honestly, the street I live doesn't seem any less flat or smooth than a race track. Actually, the nearest race track near me is probably rougher. B roads here are just a peach! With very few exceptions. Autobahn? Awesome. Compared to some other countries I have driven on, it's truly outstanding. I just came back from a few days vacationing down south on the coast and I was cursing the whole time for my 19" in potholes and road patches. It was the first time we drove down in my car. We normally take my wife's SUV. Next time, it will be the SUV again!

All I can say is, track days and autocross (U.S. style) have made me a better driver in the past and allowed me to better understand my cars and extract more of them on the road. I can't say any more than that. This has been my experience.

Circuit driving (and karting) has made me a better road driver, especially in the snow and the wet.

There are many transferable skills.

I have driven over a patch of diesel on a wet roundabout. Circuit driving has given me the skills to be able to control the resultant slide and avoid a crash. Nothing else has contributed to learning that skill. Just circuit driving.

To say there are no transferable skills from track to road driving is pure bunkum.

Maybe simply semantics or different definitions.

I live in the south of Spain, in the mountainous heartland of Andulucía. Pure driver´s heaven where car manufacturers introduce new spòrts models for a reason 
More accurately I live in the middle of touge heaven 
Even with well maintained tarmac road conditions vary deeply into the unexpected. Also, even though traffic is very sparse, you are guaranteed to encounter Manolo in his old Panda in the middle of a blind corner.

The crux of my point is that the public road, wherever, sets the limits. Period.
The more one is aware of the unexpected not being uncertain, just the what/when, the more margin one keeps.
Now where I thínk we agree is with the depth of skills. Under controlled circumstanced one can exploit limits and thus gain experience with that, as such drive better indeed, which on the public road creates a wider safety margin.

P.e. braking. The vast majority od drivers does not exploit the max capacity of the brakes. Even with abs. Learning that on track is indeed better on the street also.
Braking is a bit of my pet peeve as it makes the diference between stopping short of a mishap and clobbering one or more cyclist. This is inherited from decades of motorcycle and bicycle riding. Still drive a sidecar and just fitted more comfortable handelebars to a bicycle so I can go pédal for my morning coffee. Being thus a vulnerable participant in traffic the lardy Peltzman specials are quite scary, increasingly so.
For over 35 years now I have made it a routine to first thing go test brakes/braking of any new vehicle. From there the margins are dictated downwards.
Also it is almost the main reason for the AD08RS on my spider; them stop very short when/if the brakes are applied as they should.

p.s. the Peltzman effect can easily apply to track riders too.  The road circumstances do not change. You dó stand a better chance to avoid a mishap. At least if the skills gained do not lull you unto the idea of being able to drive faster. Yoú probably can. The rest of the world however is still the same.
I know many think I live in an alternative reality and in thát reality my competition years have made me more aware of limits and risks of the public road. Racing/rallying has made me more careful in the real world.

Right, back to the 3D printer...

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 07:27This Fleva off topic argument must have started before my time. It seems quite deeply rooted.

But what is the attraction of the Fleva over the apparently universally praised AD08RS? Just price? Or that they are softer, for more comfort?

To me at least, worrying about comfort in a MR2 spyder is like worrying about calories if you are eating at McDonalds. For this reason since the start of this, I'm trying to gravitate towards tyres that will afford me the best possible performance on the road, with the best possible sporting driving feeling. Comfort is like, at the bottom of the pile of priorities. I actually can't think of a single thing which would be bellow comfort in a MR2 spyder, for me.  I know to each his own. The same goes for the argument of lack of practicality, for me. If I want practical and comfortable I would never buy a MR2 spyder.

Here is my take.
    The Fleva is in a different performance category which is called ultra high performance summer. These tires generally are at the bottom of the summer only tire category however they have many advantages over the max summer or extreme summer tire categories. 
 1. Cold tolerance
 2. Wet weather performance
 3. Fuel savings
 4. longevity in tread wear
 5. Comfort
 6. less road noise as the tires wear
 7. Price
 
 When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

Oddly enough my Firestones are in the same category as the Fleva but they seem to blur the lines because they perform more like a max summer tire but not as good as one.

So in a nutshell there is a price to pay if you go up the ranks as the higher performance tire will cost you more per mile but they will give you incredible performance. I see nothing wrong with using them if your car is seasonal or used in the weekends but for a daily car maybe not so much.

 I would still deal with the shortcomings in favor of tires that have a stiff response because I don't mind paying the admission price for a drive that I like than compromise for being unsatisfied. 

 Notice I did not really mention tire stiffness because you can have them in both especially for RFT tires.
 I think the reason why you find less ridged tires these days is for comfort with larger sized wheels that require extremely low profile tires. People use to complain about the comfort of big wheels and now they are almost non existent especially since factory cars come with them. 
Also it's possible that  the number of plys in the tire have been scarified to decrease the rolling resistance to make these tires more fuel efficient to meet some sort of standard.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 14:23When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

And the AD08RS is in this extreme summer category then.(?) What is the Hankook?

Quote from: Zens on June 16, 2023, 22:20And the AD08RS is in this extreme summer category then.(?) What is the Hankook?

Yes to both if the Hankook is the RS4.

A good compromise for a primary street tire that is higher then the ultra high performance summer is max summer which is where the Michelin PS4 and PS2 sits.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 23:09Yes to both if the Hankook is the RS4.

A good compromise for a primary street tire that is higher then the ultra high performance summer is max summer which is where the Michelin PS4 and PS2 sits.

I think the Hankkok being thrown around in this thread is the hankook ventus prime 3 k125. First I hear of a Hankook RS4.

Quote from: Dev on June 16, 2023, 14:23When you step up to a higher category of tire like extreme summer they were designed to be street tires that blur the lines for being a semi race tire in a street car class competition. You can use them for the street but they seem to be more track focused for the weekend racer.
 The advantage of this tire is
  1. Higher temperature stability
  2. Increased maximum grip
  3. Maybe rigidity
   
  The problem with tires in this category is if you drive the tires below a certain temperature on the street they will be ruined. Tires like this lose their grip with repeated heat cycles and there is accelerated  wear compared to the ultra high performance summer tires which is a better value. As the tires wear they can get noisy because they were designed in a way to favor max performance at the expense of making a tire quiet. In addition to this they have more rolling resistance and are not fuel efficient again favoring performance over a pure street tire where people use them as a daily driver and economy is favored.

Is this data published in tyre specs? Like, is it known bellow which temperature the AD08RS would start suffering?

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 09:05Is this data published in tyre specs?

You would expect that yes that manugfacturers list the operating range but no, not industry standard at all.
For competition rubber very few manufacturers do publish the temp at which they start working.
Several manufacturers list what is the max and min temp at which the tyres are best stored.

Quote from: Petrus on June 17, 2023, 09:15You would expect that yes that manugfacturers list the operating range but no, not industry standard at all.
For competition rubber very few manufacturers do publish the temp at which they start working.
Several manufacturers list what is the max and min temp at which the tyres are best stored.

Thanks. In your personal experience, when is it too cold for the AD08RS? Or do you only use them in high summer?

Quote from: Zens on June 17, 2023, 12:15Thanks. In your personal experience, when is it too cold for the AD08RS? Or do you only use them in high summer?

I use them all year round.
Also, living in the mountains, nights and early mornings can be below zero quite often for some 4 months. Wééks of frosted windscreens is normal.
I would say they will do ok to some 5 degrees if you factor in some more time to warm them up.
Especially below zero they don´t work and don´t wake up. Mind, they are still rubber tyres and about on par with the El Cheapo no grip specials mine came on.
Also I find they stay predictable and consistent. Simply adjust your driving.

Btwm the 195/50 look a lót smaller in the wheel well than the 195/55 than they really áre. I mean, we are taking 1 cm lower rubber ffs but you percieve it without doubt.