Is it worth it switching to FL set up with a 16" rear wheel?

Started by Zens, May 25, 2023, 21:08

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Zens

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 26, 2023, 10:13Used wheels. I don't know if Toyota would still sell new ones, but I wouldn't like to know the price....

I have Rota in stock diameter, & 2 sets of JR Racing, one in stock, & one with 16" fronts, so that I could use a more modern front tyre.....no opinion on them yet.

Be aware too that if you switch to aftermarket the fronts will likely be 7" width, - & a 185 tyre doesn't look good on that width. (IMO.....)

I would also be afraid to ask Toyota.  ;D

Quite a few wheels there. :) How are they for weight and style?

You touched on my main concern with going aftermarket. The front wheels. Really like the 185 size and even 6.5" would be a compromise. But there seems no chance of finding a 6".

Zens

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 10:34Apologies I had typed a reply to this but I can't see it.

I do have 16 all round, but I stagger the tyres 195/215. There will be a hard limit of how offset/wide you can go before rubbing on the arches but I suspect it's more subjective in terms of when you'd start to feel a negative impact. Important to have the geometry adjusted accordingly too.

That factory setup is good.

I've said before that I prefer the drive on standard FL wheels but these are so light that I prefer them as the suspension is less crashy. All 4 of my OEM wheels needed a refurb too so that was a factor.


No worries.  ;)

So they are lighter than the stock wheels?

I have done this in the past. Staggering with same width and size wheels all around. It just meant my front tyres were more stretched. I can't say I liked the feeling or the looks though. I got quite a bit of "tramlining" and the front tyres felt noticeably harder. And it looked totally different from the rear. Maybe because I'm not a fan of the stretched tyre look. Your case might be totally different of course. But this was my experience.  :-[   

Carolyn

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 11:24That's an interesting idea. But I wonder how much it would end up costing, after shipping and importing taxes. I also fear damage during shipping. I wouldn't know if it was always there or not, being used. But how much good used ones usually go for the pair?

I really don't know - but not a lot.  I should think the shipping will cost more than the wheels!  Why not email J-Spec and ask?  Can't hurt to find out. They do pack things very well.  If the wheels are so rare there, it has to be worth it, I would have thought.
Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

Zens

Quote from: Carolyn on May 26, 2023, 11:43I really don't know - but not a lot.  I should think the shipping will cost more than the wheels!  Why not email J-Spec and ask?  Can't hurt to find out. They do pack things very well.  If the wheels are so rare there, it has to be worth it, I would have thought.

That's a good point. I was just thinking that if it ends up costing as much as a new lightweight wheel/lighter wheel or something. But if I indeed decide to stay OEM, this seems to be the best option. Because I didn't find anything in Germany either.

McMr2

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 11:37No worries.  ;)

So they are lighter than the stock wheels?

I have done this in the past. Staggering with same width and size wheels all around. It just meant my front tyres were more stretched. I can't say I liked the feeling or the looks though. I got quite a bit of "tramlining" and the front tyres felt noticeably harder. And it looked totally different from the rear. Maybe because I'm not a fan of the stretched tyre look. Your case might be totally different of course. But this was my experience.  :-[   

Exactly that, it picks up every groove in the road. They are lighter than stock, about 5kg from memory without the tyre.

2004 Silver. Stock(ish).

Beachbum957

Rather than start with wheels, start with the tires and what is available in different sizes and types.  In the US many people are going back to 15" rear on the FL cars because of tire availability.  The UK and Europe has more options, but finding a tire with proper staggered front and rear sizes can be a challenge.

The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

A 16" tire and wheel package is typically heavier.  The OEM 16X7" wheel is about 3 lbs heavier than the OEM 15X6.5", and the 16" tires are usually slightly heavier than 15"

There are a number of light wheel options, such as Enkei RPF1 and PF01, but if you want to change wheels, stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock (45)


Zens

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 12:05Exactly that, it picks up every groove in the road. They are lighter than stock, about 5kg from memory without the tyre.



Do you like that feel?

Zens

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 26, 2023, 12:30Rather than start with wheels, start with the tires and what is available in different sizes and types.  In the US many people are going back to 15" rear on the FL cars because of tire availability.  The UK and Europe has more options, but finding a tire with proper staggered front and rear sizes can be a challenge.

The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

A 16" tire and wheel package is typically heavier.  The OEM 16X7" wheel is about 3 lbs heavier than the OEM 15X6.5", and the 16" tires are usually slightly heavier than 15"

There are a number of light wheel options, such as Enkei RPF1 and PF01, but if you want to change wheels, stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock (45)


This is my intention. Stay with a width permitted by the tire company for the tire size and an offset close to stock, if I can find it. For tires I took a look at the Falken suggested and they are available if PFL or FL sizes no problem. Great prices to compared to some others. I think the Yokohama AD08RS seem to be available in all OEM sizes too, if I remember correctly. So this gives at least 2 options to stay OEM. The problem will be wheels, if I'm to go aftermarket.

But interesting info about the original Bridgestones. Thanks. This means a modern 195/50 could be about the same dimensions. I will try to find out the sizes to compare.

For the excess weight of the rear 16", could probably be offset by going with a lightweight 16"? If lighter enough could even compensate for the tyre weight and end up at the same as stock 15"+tyre? Just guessing as I haven't looked that close into weights yet.

Craigjm

You have to consider what you are going to do with the car. A post above mentions a 3lb weigh difference. 99% of non professional drivers will not be able to notice that.

I have bought an MR2 recently for a bit of fun having had Porsches and Ferraris before amongst other cars. You have to remember it's an old car now and whilst good when new it wasn't the cutting edge of handling and ability and nor should it be at its price point.

I put PS3 all round because it was the easiest way of getting a matching set of tyres. If you want to really notice the difference wheels and tyres make then you really need to change all the shocks, springs, roll bars etc to gain any really noticeable difference for the average driver on the road. Most people think they are better than the average driver but in reality they are not.

Bottom line choose the wheels you like in the size you like and get tyres that fit that match or don't stray far from OEM. When getting tyres go with what you know and like. Someone on the internet saying Nankang are great or Avon are great etc wouldn't sway me if I have never had them before and the suggestion above that Nankang is a premium tyre would be laughed out of the room on a Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari board etc.

It's a good car but they are old and you would need to spend big sums on them to make much real difference beyond how they were set up new and there is lots of snake oil out there that makes no decerbible difference at all. Just have fun with it

Beachbum957

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 13:02For the excess weight of the rear 16", could probably be offset by going with a lightweight 16"? If lighter enough could even compensate for the tyre weight and end up at the same as stock 15"+tyre? Just guessing as I haven't looked that close into weights yet.
We are running 16x7 all around.  Originally, they were all the FL rears.  We then went to Enkei PF01 wheels, which are 4 lb (1.8 kg) lighter than the OEM 16" at 14 lb, and about 1 lb lighter than OEM 15".  We are using 195/45-16 front and 205/45-16 rear.  Unfortunately, in the US we only have one tire option in a premium tire in those sizes, which is the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701.  It is a good sport tire, but perhaps not great for track days. If we went to 225/45-16 rear and 195/45-16 or 205/45-16 front, we would have a few more options, such as the Advan A052, or a couple Toyo Proxes.  Your options may be more extensive in your area.

Also check tire weights, as some are much lighter than others in the same sizes.  The 16" Fleva are about the same weight as equivalent 15".  But I wouldn't pick a tire just on weight. 

Does the tire / wheel weight make a difference? I never thought so, but found it did make a difference on less than ideal roads.  We actually made a slight shock adjustment as the lighter assembly can move slightly faster.

Just for reference, TRD recommended using 7x16J+45 all round with 205/45 & 215/45 for use with their Sportivo kit

McMr2

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 12:53Do you like that feel?

(Double post)
2004 Silver. Stock(ish).

Gibla

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 09:07True. Gold and black looks great. Always loved the JPS Lotus cars. Also looks great with green cars. But I also think it goes with silver or gray cars. Lotus and Porsche have silver with golden wheels and it looks great. Maybe because silver is so neutral, adds just the right amount of the spark. But it needs to be the correct "gold".

Neither set of wheels (or the cars) are particularly clean ....but hopefully you get the idea








stock 2001 Dark Green MR-S (6R4)
stock 2004 Black - repurchased from guy who bought yellow 'un

McMr2

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 12:53Do you like that feel?

Not especially, no. It was convenient for me to use those wheels and I've just run with it.
2004 Silver. Stock(ish).

Iain

Quote from: Zens on May 26, 2023, 08:14Thanks. So you use the 16" on trackdays? Just because you have the wheels, or any other particular reason?

As for what I plan to do with the car for tyre choice, this is a weekend car for me. For Sunday morning B road blasts and some trackdays here and there, most likely very seldom. Budget, I'm not too worried. I doubt I will put 2000Km on the car a year. Maybe not even 1000Km, unless I become addicted to the track, which is a hour away from me. And 15" and 16" tyres don't tend to be stupidly expensive by what I have seen.

Definitely not looking for just budget tyres though. I think the car deserves good tyres. One of the most fun cars I ever drove, let alone owned and I have owned a few nice ones. I'm in love with the little thing. :)

Great to know the PS3 can be had in FL rear sizes. But I guess if I keep the stock 15" set up, with the PS3 only being available in 195 for the front, it will mean I will have to move up from 205 at the rear to keep the proper stager. Will PS3 offer that? I will need to look.

Yeah mines a FL so already had a the 16s, and i put the michelins on because i wanted exactly what you have mentioned. My car was a weekend blast toy with the odd track day so i wanted something that could cope with all needs, and they have.

Im pretty sure they dont do a 205/50/15 in the PS3.

For what its worth my brother runs the TR1s on his MK2 MR2 for weekends and odd track days, hes very happy with them.

Also, be very careful with that track day addiction 😬. I did a trackday soon after i got my 2 and loved it. My weekend fun toy soon changed into a fully stripped out, roll caged, coilovers etc toy! It can get very addictive!

Will also add that on the weight front i was very suprised to find out that my 16s with a 215/45/16 PS3 on weighed LESS than a 15 with a 205/50/15 Toyo r888r on. I guess the semi slick toyo has alot of strengthening material in.

Ardent

@Zens

When you get to 30 posts.
You should have access to the sales area.

Plenty in there. Or just ebay UK for a guide.

Shipping from UK seems a phaff.

Just making this up. But feels like it would be easier to fly over and take them  back yourself.
Jet2 has 22kg luggage allowance. Bare rim is way less.

Ardent

Also, whatever post # it was.

You are spot on. 2s are unforgiving on cheap nasty ditch finders.

Quality tyres are key.

Petrus

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May 25, 2023, 21:31I'm not sure if the AD08 available in pfl front & rear, but probably your grippiest option.  The old AD08 suffered grip loss with heat cycles it's said,

Correct. Recently renwed the rear for that reason and the front are now NOTABLY less grippy.
First some other  8)  mods to do but the fronts will than be renewed despite being far from worn out.

Zens

Quote from: Petrus on May 28, 2023, 09:22Correct. Recently renwed the rear for that reason and the front are now NOTABLY less grippy.
First some other  8)  mods to do but the fronts will than be renewed despite being far from worn out.


So you are on the new AD08S now? Did they fix the loss of grip then in your opinion?

Zens

Quote from: Ardent on May 26, 2023, 20:17@Zens

When you get to 30 posts.
You should have access to the sales area.

Plenty in there. Or just ebay UK for a guide.

Shipping from UK seems a phaff.

Just making this up. But feels like it would be easier to fly over and take them  back yourself.
Jet2 has 22kg luggage allowance. Bare rim is way less.

Yeah, I was afraid of the shipping. But like Carolyn said, no hurt in asking. So I will look into it. :)

Zens

Quote from: Gibla on May 26, 2023, 15:30Neither set of wheels (or the cars) are particularly clean ....but hopefully you get the idea









Looks great! :)

Zens

Quote from: McMr2 on May 26, 2023, 15:32Not especially, no. It was convenient for me to use those wheels and I've just run with it.


I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

Zens

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 26, 2023, 15:00We are running 16x7 all around.  Originally, they were all the FL rears.  We then went to Enkei PF01 wheels, which are 4 lb (1.8 kg) lighter than the OEM 16" at 14 lb, and about 1 lb lighter than OEM 15".  We are using 195/45-16 front and 205/45-16 rear.  Unfortunately, in the US we only have one tire option in a premium tire in those sizes, which is the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701.  It is a good sport tire, but perhaps not great for track days. If we went to 225/45-16 rear and 195/45-16 or 205/45-16 front, we would have a few more options, such as the Advan A052, or a couple Toyo Proxes.  Your options may be more extensive in your area.

Also check tire weights, as some are much lighter than others in the same sizes.  The 16" Fleva are about the same weight as equivalent 15".  But I wouldn't pick a tire just on weight. 

Does the tire / wheel weight make a difference? I never thought so, but found it did make a difference on less than ideal roads.  We actually made a slight shock adjustment as the lighter assembly can move slightly faster.

Just for reference, TRD recommended using 7x16J+45 all round with 205/45 & 215/45 for use with their Sportivo kit

I checked the Enkei PF01 and they are affordable here. I'm just not very kin on the style. But I heard Enkei has very light weight wheels, so maybe I can find another Enkei style I like and which fits? Or the Enkei PF01 is the only one they make in the fitting sizes? I can get them here in 15x7 and 16x7. The only thing I'm not very comfortable with is going 7 wide with 195 tyre for the front. But it's looking like if I want to go after market, this will be the narrowest 15" wheel I will find.

Zens

Quote from: Iain on May 26, 2023, 17:44Yeah mines a FL so already had a the 16s, and i put the michelins on because i wanted exactly what you have mentioned. My car was a weekend blast toy with the odd track day so i wanted something that could cope with all needs, and they have.

Im pretty sure they dont do a 205/50/15 in the PS3.

For what its worth my brother runs the TR1s on his MK2 MR2 for weekends and odd track days, hes very happy with them.

Also, be very careful with that track day addiction 😬. I did a trackday soon after i got my 2 and loved it. My weekend fun toy soon changed into a fully stripped out, roll caged, coilovers etc toy! It can get very addictive!

Will also add that on the weight front i was very suprised to find out that my 16s with a 215/45/16 PS3 on weighed LESS than a 15 with a 205/50/15 Toyo r888r on. I guess the semi slick toyo has alot of strengthening material in.


So for PS3 would be 215 in 15"? That is probably less of a problem than going 195 for the front I would say? I haven't looked very deep into PS3 sizes yet. It' also different in different markets for availability. I must check around here.

Great to hear about your 16s being lighter than 15. :)

Semi slick is probably out for me. I heard some slalom events here don't allow them for the stock category. If I want to go into that. This is similar to American Autocross. Basically running around a track against time.

And noted about the addiction. I definitely don't want to convert my car into a race car only. But I must admited it has already crossed my mind, if I ever have the need to change, instead of selling it, converting it to a track car or also for hillclimbs etc. I like it too much to let it go. :) Then at least I would be able to swap it for a 2ZZ or some other power bump. For street use here, no chance. Power needs to basically stay stock.

Zens

Quote from: Craigjm on May 26, 2023, 13:42Someone on the internet saying Nankang are great or Avon are great etc wouldn't sway me if I have never had them before and the suggestion above that Nankang is a premium tyre would be laughed out of the room on a Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari board etc.

Talking about premium, it seems controversial outside of the big main brands and seems to depend on the market.

I searched what is conisdered premium and the only absolutle premium brands, those which appeared in all lists were Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear and Continental. Apart from that it was different for the US, UK and German speaking countries. Bridgestone and Dunlop was considered premium in some markets. While Hankook was premium only I think in the UK. Some very few times, Yokohama was also considered premium. But in many lists Hankook and Yokohama was considered to be mid range along with Toyo, Falken and Avon.

So the question is, how much does it matter to be premium and if one really cares, then it should be Michelin, Pirelli, Continental or Goodyear.

I do like the Pilot Sport series as I have had them in other cars and liked them. Plus Michelin has a great reputation and are on probably more peformance cars than most brands it seems. But like you said, personal experience probably counts more than what brand is premium, as there doesn't seem to be an agreement outside of the big 4. Even Bridgestone, which is the biggest is sometimes not listed as premium.

Ardent

it is in deed a deep rabbit hole.

I am a Yoko fan, despite them not doing great in tests. I am running yoko Flevas as they are one of the very few tyres that match the OEM spec. Size, profile, speed and load rating. 

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