Hi all,
I will be looking to get an AEM EMS-4 at some point in the future, I believe that this should plug directly into the stock loom as its a standalone and simply configures the pin outs internally? Anyway, my question is, I currently have the stock 1zz which I might look to turbo, will still look to get a 2zz engine at some point as well. Is there anywhere I can get a basemap for both engines? When I had an E-Manage ultimate I simply selected the engine and sensors and the settings where there, although saying that the E-manage is a piggyback rather than standalone.
Don't really want a PFC due to the limitations on some of the tuning aspects so want to go with the AEM standalone instead - are base maps available online? I don't want to get to the point of purchasing the ECU with a 1zz basemap and then find when I upgrade its going to cost me £££s to get another basemap to get to a tuners.
You'll need an adaptor harness for the AEM and as far I could find when I was researching aftermarket ECUs there are very few AEM base maps for our cars. Also I could not find many people who have one fitted in order to get any information.
I went with the Apexi as it does what I need and there are lots of people with these fitted so base maps are easier to come by. When paired to either the FC HAKO or Datalogit it can do pretty much anything the AEM can do
Where abouts were you finding limitations?
Hmmm might go with the PFC then, seems to be supported more, it would seem that the AEM EM4 has a lot of very advanced mapping that can be done but it would seem that the PFC is more widely used as its simpler to setup and get sorted.
If you run the PC softare FC Edit or Co-Pilot there's not much it cant do and with a wideband sensor connected you can also do auto tuning though co-pilot
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"If you run the PC softare FC Edit or Co-Pilot there's not much it cant do and with a wideband sensor connected you can also do auto tuning though co-pilot
Perfect, will aim to get a PFC then, auto tuning would also be helpful to help adjust the map, still deciding if I'm going 2zz or not, if not will be going turbo 1zz.
The PFC has no knock control. This could mean life or death for your engine, specially for a very fragile 2zz engine with a turbo. I have the PFC and had to add a J&S safegaurd at an additional cost for knock control. I wish I had the choice of the AEM EMs4 to start with. The EMS4 is a much more capable unit with internal datalogging and knock control.
You can order an EMS4 with plug and play harness and base map from monkeywrenchracing.com.
Autotuning with copilot only works if you know what your are doing. It's not as easy as it sound. I spend hours with copilot. In the end I just took it to a pro tuner to clean it up.
Quote from: "silversprint"The PFC has no knock control. This could mean life or death for your engine, specially for a very fragile 2zz engine with a turbo. I have the PFC and had to add a J&S safegaurd at an additional cost for knock control. I wish I had the choice of the AEM EMs4 to start with. The EMS4 is a much more capable unit with internal datalogging and knock control.
You can order an EMS4 with plug and play harness and base map from monkeywrenchracing.com.
Autotuning with copilot only works if you know what your are doing. It's not as easy as it sound. I spend hours with copilot. In the end I just took it to a pro tuner to clean it up.
Thanks for the advice, I guess the AEM is still on the table, won't need to upgrade the ECU for a while, I saw that monkeywrenchracing had a plug and play kit for both with a basemap for the AEM.
AEM all day long in my opinion. I hated that the power FC had no knock sensor and I also struggled with tuners who knew it well.
I am glad I am doing this research this far out - will compare the 2 ECUs, I guess it would be easier to get a basemap for the PFC but then again MWR says that the AEM will also come with a basemap for whatever engine, it would seem that the PFC is more user friendly in terms of tuning whereas the AEM is more powerful, advanced and more flexible - coupled with the knock control. The fact that the AEM has knock control might be the winner here as I will probably be looking at going turbo 1zz.
Will have a think about it, won't be for a while though - might be something else out on the market when I do get around to getting a ECU!
Are you mapping it yourself? If not, knock control may not be entirely necessary as the mapper should map using det cans and pull back a bit to allow for environmental/fuel differences.
If this is a diy effort, why not just stick to something simple at first like the emanage ultimate. It's not as good, but it's a hell of a lot easier to set up and map yourself with all the safeties in place.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Are you mapping it yourself? If not, knock control may not be entirely necessary as the mapper should map using det cans and pull back a bit to allow for environmental/fuel differences.
If this is a diy effort, why not just stick to something simple at first like the emanage ultimate. It's not as good, but it's a hell of a lot easier to set up and map yourself with all the safeties in place.
Hmm will see, ideally it would be good to have both options to get it mapped by a tuner to get a safe basemap but then allow me to tweak the mapping if I changed injectors or added meth injection without needing to go back to a tuner.
The NA tuning won't really give much in terms of gains, its more towards the forced induction route where I would need to keep on top of the fueling etc.
There's some good base maps lying around for turbo on EMU. Leethesparky the running his high boost turbo on the EMU.
Just sayin.. Haha
You're right that standalone is better and you'd definitely need someone to tune it for you. If that's the goal then AEM might be better for you. Unless you have some extra knick control alongside the PFC
Quote from: "shnazzle"There's some good base maps lying around for turbo on EMU. Leethesparky the running his high boost turbo on the EMU.
Just sayin.. Haha
You're right that standalone is better and you'd definitely need someone to tune it for you. If that's the goal then AEM might be better for you. Unless you have some extra knick control alongside the PFC
Will keep researching, have used the E-manage before, although there were limitations to the injector size it could accept - didn't like the 1680cc injectors so had to run with a setting for 850cc injectors and double the fueling etc.
Tempted with the AEM but I guess there are many turbo 1zz and 2zz cars out there using the PFC.
1680cc?!?!?!
Sweet jebus what kind of system are you trying to run???
Quote from: "shnazzle"1680cc?!?!?!
Sweet jebus what kind of system are you trying to run???
It was on my RX7, the 1680 injectors were in the standard secondary rail, basically as stock the 13B FC3S has:
2 x 550cc in the primary rail (1 per rotor)
2 x 550cc in the secondary rail (1 per rotor)
At mid RPM the secondaries come in so most of the time you are running on the stock 550cc injectors, uprated the secondary rail to run 1680s, also had a manifold with an additional 4 x 550cc injectors making an 85% duty cycle injection flow of around 5 and a half litres a minute. Running the stock 550cc injectors mean you don't lose any drivability around town as it behaves as stock, only goes mental when you need the fuel. Unfortunatly sold the bridge ported race engine to a mate before fitting it, so never knew what power it would have made - was going to be running a TA45 turbo and an ORC 709 twin plate clutch to hold the power - probably would have run mid to high 600s I recon, its only a 1.3 litre after all.
I'm in conversation with motorsport electronics about a plug and play ecu for 2zz and 1zz engines. ME221. look them up on facebook or there own website and send them a message. The more interest we show the more likely we are to get a full standalone with maps for less than £700. They are also uk based and have a lifetime guarantee.
Link monsoon would get my money.
PFC does a job but is passed it I would go emange ultimate if money was an issue.
ECU master are worth a try too.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Link monsoon would get my money.
PFC does a job but is passed it I would go emange ultimate if money was an issue.
ECU master are worth a try too.
Will check them out as well, I have heard good thinks about the Link ECUs, I also notice that there is an MR2 specific plug in ECU they make as well.
Quote from: "m1tch"Quote from: "1979scotte"Link monsoon would get my money.
PFC does a job but is passed it I would go emange ultimate if money was an issue.
ECU master are worth a try too.
Will check them out as well, I have heard good thinks about the Link ECUs, I also notice that there is an MR2 specific plug in ECU they make as well.
Pretty sure that the plug in is not for our cars. It's for the mk2
There are no plug in ECU for the 1zz except the PFC.
Remember that if you buy a link you need to spend 200 odd quid for a loom.
Sometimes you need loom A and loom B
There are several p&p harnesses available for the emanage blue and ultimate. Boomslang sell one as well as a chap on eBay who makes them to order. Not cheap tho
MWR do one for the AEM I believe
I am thinking of going standalone, I have a Dastek unichip arriving soon which is already premapped by Dastek for the stock 1ZZ in NA form, it should release some more power from the stock engine without spending much at the moment - a stopgap ECU upgrade.
MWR does plug and play setups for both PFC and AEM (eg the ECU and loom), tempted by the AEM as its got better resolution whereas the PFC is getting on a bit now - I think Apexi has discontinued a few of them already. The E-manage blue is a bit too basic but ok for NA tuning, I would only go with the Ultimate again if I wanted to go with a piggyback.
Minor bump to this thread as I am still looking into options, currently have the PFC at home (but not plugged into the car), looking at other options for the standalone. I am now looking at either the Link G4+ Storm or the AEM EMS4, does anyone have experience of either? I am leaning towards the Link G4+ Storm (rather than the Monsoon) as it has knock control and seems to be better regarded than the AEM unit (for aftersales support and software etc).
Only person I know runs Link is Dick Sloan and his car has been running solid as a rock for years on a Gt28 turbo
I run a link on the 2GR. It's a pretty flexible and widely supported bit of kit.
Quote from: "silversprint"The PFC has no knock control. This could mean life or death for your engine, specially for a very fragile 2zz engine with a turbo. I have the PFC and had to add a J&S safegaurd at an additional cost for knock control. I wish I had the choice of the AEM EMs4 to start with. The EMS4 is a much more capable unit with internal datalogging and knock control.
You can order an EMS4 with plug and play harness and base map from monkeywrenchracing.com.
Autotuning with copilot only works if you know what your are doing. It's not as easy as it sound. I spend hours with copilot. In the end I just took it to a pro tuner to clean it up.
The only worry with MWR plug and play harness is that they are configured for the US harness and ecu pinout. (Different part numbers for US ECU.) I know our Australian harness/ECU is a bit different. Your harness/ecu would be too? Do you know anyone who has successfully used the MWR EMS4 harness in your part of the world?
I am leaning towards the Link G4+ Storm ECU for my build, either ECU costs more than the car though!
Link ECU storm G4+ is a fine bit of kit.
I was looking at the Fury better for 6 cylinders and has built in AFR.
Still think the ECUmaster is worth a look for the money.
I have gone with a Link G4+ Xtreme ECU, includes traction control so saves money on a Racelogic setup.
Quote from: "m1tch"I have gone with a Link G4+ Xtreme ECU, includes traction control so saves money on a Racelogic setup.
That's what I'm running the 2GR with, but not using traction control.
Quote from: "m1tch"I have gone with a Link G4+ Xtreme ECU, includes traction control so saves money on a Racelogic setup.
You can't get racelogic traction control anymore.
Unless you see one on eBay.
Good ECU. Ends up costing 2 grand by the time you get all the proper link sensors looms etc.
I've just had MegaSquirt thrown into the mix.
I know it's big in the US on ye olde muscle cars but it seems to have really picked up pace in the meantime with V3.
Any experiences?
I really like the "open source"-ish/raspberry-pi-esque approach they take. It's very hands-on, but also very accessible and full of great features. And..cheap!
Even has mobile/tablet apps to tune it with.
AEM (according to MonekyWrenchRacing) is a bit of a handful with an overwhelming interface, but very feature-rich and a well-established user base.
Then there's the Link G4 Storm, another proven great piece of kit but a bit higher on the prices.
And not to forget Emerald K6.
I know that the Megasquirt is quite popular with the MX5, I think the issue we have with our cars is that you need to have a fairly good ECU setup to be able to control the VVTi system properly.
It looks to have pretty decent vvt control in the 3
Knock control with a separate module.
Built in boost control and built in barometer
That Megasquirt setup sounds interesting Schnazzle. Please keep us posted.
cheers
Tyler
Quote from: "MrT"That Megasquirt setup sounds interesting Schnazzle. Please keep us posted.
cheers
Tyler
Don't have it yet s:) :) s:)
Don't know if we'll get it at all. But it is very nicely priced.
The K6 comes Pre-configured to run the car for under 750. Also very good feature set.
The good thing with the above is that you don't need bay expensive separate tools or software
Do they do a plug and play harness for the Megasquit?
Nope. I haven't even found a 1zz plug for it so could be interesting. Worst case scenario you get a universal adapter for the 1zz and wire the MegaSquirt into that as to not have to cut into the stock wires
Quote from: "shnazzle"I really like the "open source"-ish/raspberry-pi-esque approach they take. It's very hands-on, but also very accessible and full of great features.
It's the home brew raspberry pi part that puts me off.
I never even bring it up when people start talking ECU.
Makes perfect sense if you like to tinker yourself.
Just not for me.
I think it's come a long way from being that home-brew solution (which it totally was).
It seems the MicroSquirt took over as that when the Mega matured.
The software looks really good and mature, and the hardware solid.
It's no AEM,link or SyvecsS6 but it's in the same league as apexi and Emerald
Knowing someone who used Megasquirt to run a V8 and the issues he had with it, I'd give it a wide berth.
Aha
That's the stuff I was looking for.
What kind of issues? Would it be relevant to the turbo 4cyl setup?
Can't remember, I'll give him a shout and find out. I remember he was very unimpressed with the customer support.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Can't remember, I'll give him a shout and find out. I remember he was very unimpressed with the customer support.
And there's that "open source" feel I mentioned.
It's very much a community thing from what I can tell. Massive forums etc.
As Scott pointed out though... Not for everybody.
I'm 50/50. I love tinkering but it has to be rewarding.
What about Emerald? Better?
Mike's reply to my question:
"Hi Chris, I wouldn't do it.. doesn't work out much cheaper than an omex/ emerald system and cost is supposed to be a selling point. It's ok if you are a electronics expert and want to build and learn about ecu's but no good for a plug and play type approach. The ones you buy ready built are of debatable build quality, built by amateurs for enthusiasts with too much fiddling and tweaking to sort along with poor support.
I still can't get a cam signal so run batch injection which negates the extra cost of the version I bought. I've an omex 710 which will be replacing it when I can be bothered.
If it's for a 4 cylinder (full sequential setup) an emerald K6 or omex 600 are the weopons of choice
Mike"
I know he's been trying to get it running right for ages (V8 in a tiny kit car). So there you have it.
That'll do me.
No MegaSquirt. s:) :) s:)
Thanks Chris, very helpful indeed.
From the sounds of that note it also seems to address my question about the Emerald.
Certainly not in this to mess about. Access to tinker, yes. But there's tinkering and then there's re-engineering to get something to work.
No thanks on the latter.
K6 does adaptive AFR mapping which I don't remember the last time I had a look.
Being designed and built in the UK has to be a good thing.
At the very least you don't need to call New Zealand at 1 in the morning for customer support.
I wonder what the boost control is like. Overboost protection is a nice feature to have.
While the boost cut it causes can be.. Err.. detrimental.. to the car.. Not having it would have been a lot more detrimental.
Does K6 run OK on MAF? Or would we have to switch to MAP?
To be honest, I'm about 85% certain I would do the bulk of the "Getting it running" and then drive it to a mapper to sort it out. That should save hours of dyno costs
I just had a very quick look at the Emerald K6 spec web page, it only mentions MAP (not MAF) but doesn't mention knock control at all!
Quote from: "lamcote"I just had a very quick look at the Emerald K6 spec web page, it only mentions MAP (not MAF) but doesn't mention knock control at all!
Hmm... MAP would require a few more changes to the car. Unless you can tap into the air temp signal from the existing MAF, saves buying a new sensor for that.
No knock control is not something I'm entirely comfortable with. Or at least knock sensing so that you can link it to a warning of some kind so that I can go home and retard timing. Or in the case of the OMEX, you can use an external dashpot controller to turn down boost and/or timing.
But I guess, if the tune is right, no need for knock control.... bit tricky.
I know the MegaSquirt didn't work for the dude above, but the feature set continues to be very attractive for the price range. What does scare me is that I can't find any 1zz-fe implementation for it.
It seems to support everything we need though. And had knock,traction and boost control. On paper it's all very attractive. What worries me is stories like Chris' above.
...I can see how the PowerFC ends up being the choice for many.
A Link G4+ is a lot of money but it seems to do everything you could ever want. I'd be very tempted. Looks like you could get everything you would need from TCB too.
yeah, the thing is, it's about as much money as an Emerald + tuning.
I'd love a G4, but by the time I've got the ecu, harness and tune I'm in stupid money and then might as well save up and go Syvecs. Where do you stop?
Fact of the matter is, a piggyback does the job. The crappy Dastek has done the job on many a SP240.
So if there isn't a sensible solution then it'll just get remapped and perhaps an external (better) boost controller added (also an option).
But for now, something like the Mega or the K6 seem like the only sensible options. If a PowerFC came up with all the gear required for tuning, I'd be hard pressed to ignore it as well.
Might have my PFC up at some point lol
The better one you buy, the more you'll get back when you eventually sell it.
I REALLY moaned about spending £250 on an Apple iPod 2 years ago..... I have just sold it for £204!
The idea is to never have to sell it haha
I'm trying my best to give you the ammunition to justify the purchase!! I'd never heard of it but the Syvecs looks mega and you'd only need the basic model, sounds good yeah?
PM'd m1tch for dibs on his PFC if it becomes available. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. Say so if I am.
cheers
Tyler
Quote from: "MrT"PM'd m1tch for dibs on his PFC if it becomes available. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. Say so if I am.
cheers
Tyler
Nah mate. Pretty sure I'd pass on the PFC anyway
I understand using a standalone means you lose control of the air conditioning, the coolant temp gauge and the immobiliser? Is there anything else?
Can all these be solved and what exactly is the Air Con issue? Is it just modifying idle speed when the pump kicks in?
Quote from: "lamcote"I understand using a standalone means you lose control of the air conditioning, the coolant temp gauge and the immobiliser? Is there anything else?
Can all these be solved and what exactly is the Air Con issue? Is it just modifying idle speed when the pump kicks in?
All of the above ecus can work the A/C. Possibly better than stock.
You lose immobiliser, number of things on your dash (depending on ecu) , obd2 (depending on ecu).
Bear in mind that you can run the stock ECU in parallel to retain these things. The AEM Ems4 has a plug/play harness just like a piggyback to retain stock functionality while overriding any actual running gear. Also the signals are protected so that where the AEM taps into wires, it doesn't affect the signal.
AEM is possibly the best I've seen for this parallel running