Hello forum
I've challenged myself to figure out a simple concept for supercharging a 1zz. Initially I was interested in simple low pressure and running the totally stock ECU like some turbo kits but I've decided to develop/figure out a configuration to offer flexibility of a low pressure and stock ECU setup and be able to scale it to full power builds.
It so happens that in the plethora of different kompressor configurations used by Mercedes they left us a nearly perfect setup to achieve this. I initially was going to use the M45 mini charger due to size and availability and similarity in application to the 1zz but wanted to check all options when I found the Mercedes-Benz w203 era C-class models' M65 charger is a far better solution. Note: there are many different versions of C-CLASS kompressor models and you must get the right charger but I will explain which and why below.
It is coincidence that I ended up going for an M65 charger, the added performance potential is fine and actually I'm happy to be able to run it slower for less heat etc in the stock ECU setup. The governing parameters however are the intake and pipework orientation. I intend to lay the charger on its back in place of the AC compressor on the stock belt run and push air up into the manifold. The M62 model is suitable however requires a combined charger intake and output manifold due to its configuration. See below:
[attachment=1:23rd4v0q] ia1 2001-2004-Mercedes-Benz-SLK230-R170-M62-Supercharger.jpg ia1 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]
The M65 however has an integrated 90deg intake turning back towards the same orientation as the output of the charger plus a bypass duct and valve in the same orientation. All perfect for the charger to lay on its back beneath the manifold (and in nice fresh air not hot engine air) and keep the routing changes minimal. See below:
[attachment=0:23rd4v0q] ia0 Mercedes_w203_Eaton_M65_supercharger.jpg ia0 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]
There are 2 ways to approach the manifold. One is keep the stock manifold and make an output pipe from the charger and a simple input pipe in place of the throttle. The throttle body must move upstream of the charger but this is simple and it needn't move far. My preferred alternative is using a bespoke manifold made from scratch or half a 2zz manifold (engine half of 2 piece model, modded flange holes) and a structural connecting manifold to the charger to both plumb and mount it, plus bracing to the block near the pulley.This is optimal in my mind for air flow, intake length & volume and simplified installation. It frees space for locating the throttle and better supports the mounting of the charger. I'd also like to use the larger 2zz throttle simply because I will be altering it etc, but I'll probably stick with stock everything for the low pressure stock ECU setup to begin with.
I'll try sketch up the layout on the tablet tomorrow also and upload a few pics.
That's the easy bit. I then want to fit a pressure relief return fuel rail system and higher pressure pump with stock injectors first and consider upgrading to 2zz injectors if needed. I already have a good exhaust on my car so should be ok to begin with.
Please feel free to give pragmatic and constructive feedback or input but keep subjective conjecture or unrelated banter out of the thread. I'm happy to have a separate thread to discuss such matters once my car is faster than yours and I can get away if need be...
PS: pics are on PC so will add them tomorrow.
cheers
Tyler
(edited trying to get more than 3 images in the post... See below for layouts)
Going to have to see some diagrams. Sounds drastic and very complicated.
Seems easier to do away with the whole input assembly, have a bespoke plate with 3" input from the air filter bolted to the mating face of the charger.
Then just run a pipe from the driver's side rear bumper to the input port.
Then just a pipe from the output to the throttle body (via charge cooler, intercooler, whatever).
Using the AC location does sound good. Although I wouldn't want to lose my AC s:) :) s:)
Sounds like a plan. My question at this point is, are you sure the supercharger can be mounted on its back? I don't know. Superchargers are filled with lubricating oil and they may need to be kept in their normal operating orientation for their lubrication system to work, rather like an engine would.
Having said that, you do see similar superchargers in various orientations, however they are often specced by the car manufacturer specifically to fit each car.
I would also echo shnazzle's comment about A/C.
Hi Shnazzle
Diagram and a few pics to come. I don't want drastic. The fabbed manifold is a fancier method of achieving the same result. Only challenge with the w203 M65 charger is the availability of mounting points. It'll likely need to use existing points in a dual functionality (wait for images) and with facing pipework it seems so far like as much work to use half a 2zz manifold and fab a duct from the charger that gives this dual purpose of mounting and ducting the charge air.
I will try both methods for ease of installation but certainly pursue the 2zz manifold approach for my own build.
Regarding AC, I have a car with and a car without and to avoid the more complicated installation challenges we've seen Carolynne face to keep the AC, I'm happy to give it up. We live in GB, not the UAE, so my view is drop the roof or crack a window if you need some air.
Lamcote
That is one of the first considerations. But an Eaton is very good in that it is only lubricating the rotor mesh gears and as long as one is bathed the other is lubricated so they can generally be rotated any way about their length.
cheers
Tyler
Looks promising about orientation; (5th post)
m https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... ed.271245/ (https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/twin-superchargers-some-help-and-pics-requested.271245/) m
Orientation shouldn't be a problem.
I think my main foibles are with the manifold.
The 2zz manifold is designed for the 2zz. High rpm. Shorter runners and bigger plenum I believe. It's quite different from the 1zz.
Interesting for sure. Will be watching with interest s:) :) s:)
Good luck!
I have seen many superchargers mounted as a unit with the inlet manifold, almost directly on the head, which inevitably means very short runners, so a 2zz manifold may(?) not be an issue.
Might the 2zz throttle body be an issue with the standard ECU? I also don't think a 2zz throttle body is really needed (if it is used as blow through, after the supercharger) because using forced induction massively increases the flow capacity of a tube, so a 1zz body would be fine in my opinion.
Loving the concept: Now I just need somebody to do this as a fully packaged install, so I don't have to rent a garage and have my car off the road for several months.... which is how long it would take me in my non-existent spare time.
Hello folks
The 2zz manifold is not necessary. Look at the Lotus 2zz charger, almost no manifold as lamcote says. The 2zz throttle body is also just because it comes with the manifold... It will be up stream of the charger either way so better flow is going to help but negligible with a positive displacement charger like the Eaton...
It's been hectic at work so sorry for not having sketches up yet. Hopefully tomorrow evening I'll get this done. This will clarify the installation plans.
BahnStormer
There may be mileage in getting a group buy of manifolds made if people are interested. Someone entrepreneurial on the forum might even volunteer to manufacture them for a fee, they won't be complicated. They may not be necessary at all, as I said earlier, I plan to have a simple bolt on setup with all stock items except plumbing to and from charger between throttle and manifold. I'm just over engineering my own installation because enough isn't enough...
cheers
Tyler
OK after a busy weekend and messing about trying to post these in the original thread, here are my scribbles of the 2 layout options I'm going to mess about with:
Simple ducted, stock intake manifold:
[attachment=1:8dh8edla] ia1 1zz-fe_motor-M65_charger_orientation-simple1.jpg ia1 [/attachment:8dh8edla]
2zz intake ducts, Fabricated manifold & charger mount:
[attachment=0:8dh8edla] ia0 1zz-fe_motor-M65_manifold_mock-up.jpg ia0 [/attachment:8dh8edla]
So the challenge with either is incorporating a mounting system for the charger and the outlet flange as there aren't many other mount points. but everything else looks good.
except for those who like AirCon.
Just a few thoughts.
1. Noise might be an issue with a fabricated outlet. Superchargers are very noisy without some sort of attenuation in the outlet. There's also not a lot of room underneath the manifold for an efficient outlet? Particularly since you are changing the orientation of the outlet pipe by 180 degrees from that of the Mercedes setup, I think you would really need quite a large radius turn in the outlet pipe (like the one used in the Mini) to achieve this efficiently? I can't see space for this.
2. I'm wondering where the MAF will go? I would have thought a blow through MAF would be much better if you are contemplating using the standard ECU?
3. Will the rotors be turning in the correct direction in that setup? My brain always starts to hurt when I try to work that out, I think it's OK but worth checking.
4. If you're using a suck through throttle body you should be able to dispense with a BOV but it can sometimes cause idling issues.
5. Are you not planning for an intercooler?
6. How will the supercharger bypass valve work/be plumbed in?
Share Patrick's thoughts and also, will it fit?
The Corolla supercharger is in a similar spot (worth looking at for inspiration?) and doesn't fit in the mr2 without firewall massaging
It won´t fit. You can barely squeeze supercharger there outlet facing front (or back), and then there is not enough room for outlet pipe. Pictured position (outlet pipe up) requires cutting frame.
I'm going to start pulling the project car to bits this weekend and trial fit the charger to assess how much space there is. So I will report back with pictures and some measurements.
cheers
Tyler
Look forward to the pics!
Quick pic showing different 2zz intake manifolds. I've been looking at the routes to fit the 2zz manifold and it'd be as much work just making one from scratch. One point worth noting though is for both engines, the Celica manifold is different in that the throttle body mounts horizontally rather than angled upwards as in the Corolla/MR2. This would be beneficial in routing pipework if keeping a stock intake rather than fabricating one as I've suggested.
I'll probably get one to experiment with and the early models had a metal tubular manifold rather than plastic which may allow some simple modifications also. I'll try find a picture.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171208/1d85c160d41cb73a671ecf1bd9025e33.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
1zz Celica metal manifold(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171208/c2cc43bc6820d9e1e8240dc448b143a2.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
Well folks. Not the best weather to be lying under a car in. At least only my feet were out in the snow...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/baa887d1c5766d9c1b2d189f5c7702a9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/256942a76cb118255525f102a2e49e51.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
To get to the space where the AC pump is I had to drop the whole motor and remove the pump... So getting my engine hoist to the storage garage meant removing the passenger seat, disassembling the hoist and cramming it in the 2.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/0c32609fd3a981b424e5d06919e186d2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/d89bcba7797c1be044b7dc566d8fd068.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/b5cc4fbaf1dd2a66ef66416de353bb53.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
I took loads of pictures so bare with all the posts. First with the pump fitted for a baseline of the space, then comparison between the pumps and measurements of the space with the engine back in...
So the pump in situ first:(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/84f265b91adcaf5233e2f6e9e9fb67b3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/60c921311b112faeb39450bb5cd2f7df.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/9721bea8a490776119d4e49dfe2e31d9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/49af5322680a6a0c7678a49e5fee3615.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/e26a28a2944d4dbf6deec443f7ceb86f.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
Then here are measurements of the pumps side by side. Apologies for the hoist being in the way, the engine was hanging freely at this point having liberated the pump.
PS: the AC system lost its gas years ago, no CFCs were released in the process!
PPS: pics are oriented to align the measurements to the rule so are fairly accurate.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/5727e365c6e1ba240e552e84dfac4dca.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/42eab76b5430294021657272e07358ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/ae6a426aba7eac7a02b152386cbb124a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/eb9b14a91cb76497008d7d1bf05eeb42.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/a70b5d7d1df6ad1f7a62c1b23a1cd39a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c4c033503f816c7454f6009fe0e426eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c5589050b9838faa6300b4c55177f143.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/d08f156230a1f31715c51f447ee732e4.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
And finally the space left behind. Now, I'll openly say the M65 doesn't fit down here. But I will explore more options. My next consideration is to move the alternator to the AC position, I read somebody's project where they did this without extended wiring. It will necessitate a more complex manifold however, something akin to the TRD supercharger package.
But first pics. The eagle eyed will notice that there is a second challenge in that the length of the charger is restricted by the oil sender and I'd hope to figure out a way to avoid this depending on what further investigation brings. I also saw an opportunity to run a second drive belt exclusively for the charger resulting in it moving to the right (of car, left of pics) however the current restriction is space forward to the chassis. I was tempted to get the big hammer and 'panel beat' some space for the charger but I'm going to do my maths and a bit more research first.
I am still intrigued by the prospect of using an M24 charger for low speed torque and am doing some research on that also. But I will update the thread as things evolve.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c985b5e71ee20abb5cc2a0934fe6a4e2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/4f1fc581fc96169f9c2e4111141f7c4e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/d9e08f61906556b8b6acb431399373f2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/093728110be815e277b114d57d7e5d44.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c1de8c911bd3612e4cae2ce92bccdec6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/fabdc660ba9c85e5602fa4052084546e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/6f0f9cb15cddf85de93a6b024d252384.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/a6166cc2d713bb557110e9db8f7245ee.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/b62b03e9f672949ab41f6b1ec8e581a7.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
Carolynne, if you see this would you please post xyz dims of the M45 charger similar to how I've measured above. I'm curious to know how much bigger the M65 is. It is a bit broad.
Thanks
cheers
Tyler
I measured the supercharger on Carolyn's car as approximately:
14 inches long, including the pulley
8 inches high, including the fitted water pump, which obviously isn't needed
5.5 inches high, excluding the Mini's water pump (this may need checking once the pump is removed, I couldn't be certain exactly what would come off)
7 inches wide
The water pump does, indeed, come off. Don't forget to allow extra for the mounting bracket. I'll get out to the workshop later and measure up, though I'm sure that Patrick (Lamcote) will have done it properly. The Eatons can come with two different lengths of 'nose', depending on the original application. The Mini one is shorter than the Mercedes one, as I recall.
Patrick came here for a very pleasant visit and we went over just about all possible placements, including an idea of Patrick's for an extra shaft to get it over to the other end of the engine. I'm pretty convinced that the placement I've ended up with is the most practical and the most 'do-able'.
If anything, I am likely to have slightly rounded up the dimensions to the nearest half inch, to allow a small margin for error, but hopefully it won't be far off.
I must admit I thought the nose was longer on the Mini than the Mercedes but may well be wrong.
Hi Carolynne and Patrick.
Thanks for the help so far. Please don't feel my actions have dismissed your advice about fitting a charger on the front of the engine. I'm just convinced I can find an effective way to do so. Or want to prove myself wrong. It's the finding out that is as much an enjoyment as the getting it right.
Your help is greatly appreciated.
cheers
Tyler
We're all here to learn.
Patrick, your 5.5 inches, is that to the top of the bunny ear mounts please? How high to just the body of the charger please?
Thanks
cheers
Tyler
Quote from: "MrT"Patrick, your 5.5 inches, is that to the top of the bunny ear mounts please?.....
.... StuC? Help me out here bruv
It was a while ago but I think it's 8 inches to the top of the ears, the 5.5 inches was what I thought would be the minimum possible total depth of the supercharger ie the flat surface of the top face to the bottom of the inlet pipe. The "bunny ears" are part of the water pump.
Measuring from the flat top face to the flat of the back of the chamber would be less than that, because the inlet pipe protrudes a bit, but I didn't take a direct measurement of that dimension.
Don't worry shnazzle, it does make perfect sense, have a look at a photo (and it's not remotely smutty, but I do wish he had referred to my 8 inches instead!)
I almost didn't ask the question knowing some wise cracker would chime in...
Patrick, I forgot the inlet was raised, makes sense now of course. And I thought the bunny ears didn't come off with the water pump. Am I wrong?
Thanks
cheers
Tyler
I'm afraid I don't know, I had assumed they did but may well be wrong, hopefully Carolyn can let us know.
Just found this,
m https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mini+ ... Hqgi1pfSNM (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mini+cooper+supercharger+water+pump&oq=mini+supercharger+water&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l3.6809j0j7&client=tablet-android-pega&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=9Z9YHqgi1pfSNM) m :
Ah perfect thanks Patrick. So they can be removed and blanked off.
I await some info from Carolynne.
Interestingly, the M24 is not that much smaller it seems. Although I recognise that volumetrically it is. I'm playing with the Eaton simulator to see what useable performance that might give with a reducing ratio CVT drive. I'll post when I have some working calculations.
cheers
Tyler
When it stops being minus several in the workshop, I'll go measure.....
I'm assuming that Eaton have found the most efficient design and diameter for the rotors and simply vary the length of the rotors to create different capacities, this would avoid the need for any major redesign for each different size.
The width and height of the various models will therefore not be all that different.
Oops
Thanks Carolynne, no rush.
cheers
Tyler
Right... It is a VERY irregular shape. The highest point at the top (not including the outlet we fabricated) is at the opposite end to the lowest point. This makes things 'not easy' for measuring with the thing in the car and surrounded by 'stuff'.
So this is my best shot: With out the water pump, Overall length, including pulley) - 14" or 356 mm. Overall height (surprised me!) - 7" or 175 mm. Width 6.5" or 165 mm. This is the envelope of space you will need to free up,, but as it's such an irregular bugger, it might just pop in where least expected!!
My method was: Take the exhaust and AC compressor off the engine while it's in the car, lift it up, get an M 45, see where I could stick it.
Hi Carolynne
Thanks. My method is the same. So far. The intake is coming off next. I don't want the intake path near the exhaust. I believe I can find space in there similar to the TRD setup but we'll see.
cheers
Tyler
Hi Folks
Merry Christmas, happy new year etc. Would anybody have an M45 charger I could borrow for mock up etc please? I'm chewing on an idea and hoped to prove concept before plumbing for a good charger myself.
Thanks
cheers
Tyler
Hello all,
Did anything come of this supercharging endeavour? I'm looking to do a similar thing with an earn m65 if possible.
Cheers
Matt
Quote from: MrT on November 29, 2017, 22:16Hello forum
I've challenged myself to figure out a simple concept for supercharging a 1zz. Initially I was interested in simple low pressure and running the totally stock ECU like some turbo kits but I've decided to develop/figure out a configuration to offer flexibility of a low pressure and stock ECU setup and be able to scale it to full power builds.
It so happens that in the plethora of different kompressor configurations used by Mercedes they left us a nearly perfect setup to achieve this. I initially was going to use the M45 mini charger due to size and availability and similarity in application to the 1zz but wanted to check all options when I found the Mercedes-Benz w203 era C-class models' M65 charger is a far better solution. Note: there are many different versions of C-CLASS kompressor models and you must get the right charger but I will explain which and why below.
It is coincidence that I ended up going for an M65 charger, the added performance potential is fine and actually I'm happy to be able to run it slower for less heat etc in the stock ECU setup. The governing parameters however are the intake and pipework orientation. I intend to lay the charger on its back in place of the AC compressor on the stock belt run and push air up into the manifold. The M62 model is suitable however requires a combined charger intake and output manifold due to its configuration. See below:
[attachment=1:23rd4v0q] ia1 2001-2004-Mercedes-Benz-SLK230-R170-M62-Supercharger.jpg ia1 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]
The M65 however has an integrated 90deg intake turning back towards the same orientation as the output of the charger plus a bypass duct and valve in the same orientation. All perfect for the charger to lay on its back beneath the manifold (and in nice fresh air not hot engine air) and keep the routing changes minimal. See below:
[attachment=0:23rd4v0q] ia0 Mercedes_w203_Eaton_M65_supercharger.jpg ia0 [/attachment:23rd4v0q]
There are 2 ways to approach the manifold. One is keep the stock manifold and make an output pipe from the charger and a simple input pipe in place of the throttle. The throttle body must move upstream of the charger but this is simple and it needn't move far. My preferred alternative is using a bespoke manifold made from scratch or half a 2zz manifold (engine half of 2 piece model, modded flange holes) and a structural connecting manifold to the charger to both plumb and mount it, plus bracing to the block near the pulley.This is optimal in my mind for air flow, intake length & volume and simplified installation. It frees space for locating the throttle and better supports the mounting of the charger. I'd also like to use the larger 2zz throttle simply because I will be altering it etc, but I'll probably stick with stock everything for the low pressure stock ECU setup to begin with.
I'll try sketch up the layout on the tablet tomorrow also and upload a few pics.
That's the easy bit. I then want to fit a pressure relief return fuel rail system and higher pressure pump with stock injectors first and consider upgrading to 2zz injectors if needed. I already have a good exhaust on my car so should be ok to begin with.
Please feel free to give pragmatic and constructive feedback or input but keep subjective conjecture or unrelated banter out of the thread. I'm happy to have a separate thread to discuss such matters once my car is faster than yours and I can get away if need be...
PS: pics are on PC so will add them tomorrow.
cheers
Tyler
(edited trying to get more than 3 images in the post... See below for layouts)
Quote from: MrT on December 10, 2017, 23:20Then here are measurements of the pumps side by side. Apologies for the hoist being in the way, the engine was hanging freely at this point having liberated the pump.
PS: the AC system lost its gas years ago, no CFCs were released in the process!
PPS: pics are oriented to align the measurements to the rule so are fairly accurate.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/5727e365c6e1ba240e552e84dfac4dca.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/42eab76b5430294021657272e07358ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/ae6a426aba7eac7a02b152386cbb124a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/eb9b14a91cb76497008d7d1bf05eeb42.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/a70b5d7d1df6ad1f7a62c1b23a1cd39a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c4c033503f816c7454f6009fe0e426eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/c5589050b9838faa6300b4c55177f143.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171210/d08f156230a1f31715c51f447ee732e4.jpg)
cheers
Tyler
@Matt-T nope, it is still sitting like that waiting. I finally have a workshop with space to work on it but no time... My idea was to fit the SC in place of the AC with a fabricated Alu manifold onto a 2zz intake top half, OR just some pipework to the stock intake if KISS. I would like to fit a charge cooler in that fabricated manifold (chop up an AMG 63 cooler) but need a TIG and some materials, bit complicated.
Now I am considering whether I should relocate the alternator (could use a smaller size) and fitting the SC higher up where there is space and make that manifold go from the SC directly to the injector flange without cooling. I don't want high power, just smooth power. Ultimate aim is 200WHP and 200Wtq.
Your M65 might pump quite a bit of air mind, what boost is it set at? Got any pictures?