Fínally found a useful photo of the door glass:
MR2Zijraam.jpg
The fixtures; three bolts and two guide plastics, look simple enough to copy too.
I think I will have a go. The only bugger is that I will have to take the windows out of my own as templates. Bit of a timing issue only though as I have a dust cover.
The plastic foam sandwich I found for the wing side plates is ideal for lightweight door cards so will do those at the same time.
Quote from: Petrus on September 2, 2020, 14:09Fínally found a useful photo of the door glass:
MR2Zijraam.jpg
The fixtures; three bolts and two guide plastics, look simple enough to copy too.
I think I will have a go. The only bugger is that I will have to take the windows out of my own as templates. Bit of a timing issue only though as I have a dust cover.
The plastic foam sandwich I found for the wing side plates is ideal for lightweight door cards so will do those at the same time.
Would you not be better off trying to get a breaker window? Or too risky/expensive shipping?
Reason I say that is because you could then also use that window as a bit of a mold when heating/bending the acrylic
Not to be an idiot here.. but how hard is it to change/remove a window? I've got a couple of spare doors (with the windows up!) and would quite like to get lighter windows myself.
Problem is indeed shipping as none are availeble here.
Yes, they serve both as template and ´mold´. The bolts and guide pieces can be reused on the acrylic too.
The goal is to have lighweight window that still winds down.
The only trick bit I still need to think about is a strip on the inside as that one sits on the door card. That is not a wíndow problem though but a door card one.
Not difficult at all JvZ.
As the glass has very little curve a heat gun will prvide ample heat to form the acrylic. Just tape upper and lower side firmly bent and it will form. It´s how Carlyn made/makes the Mongos.
Maybe a project for you to make a few? As many as you have doors? or more if you can find altenative fixtures.
I´d buy a set to save the small but crap risk of busting a window of my car :-[
Quote from: jvanzyl on September 2, 2020, 17:21would quite like to get lighter windows myself.
I have not given op on the windscreen yet either. The local window fitters did not say no to the idea.Problem is agin that my own one needs to be taken out as template/mold. If I´d have the UK breakers situation, I´d have one in already!!
I said before that the guy with the fiberglass can make us a set. Also I can get a window easily from a breaker here. I am on two weeks vacation and if you havent got it done by then I can try to arrange something.
Yeah it's more of a "time" thing for me at the moment, go two spare windows (still attached to the doors) and would love to have a bash at this sort of thing but I just have zero time for non-essentials at the moment.
I'm sure there was a company that made these things for us.. can't remember who found them be interested to know how many kilos it saves.
Quote from: Nvy on September 2, 2020, 18:26I said before that the guy with the fiberglass can make us a set. Also I can get a window easily from a breaker here. I am on two weeks vacation and if you havent got it done by then I can try to arrange something.
Much appreciated Ivo! I´d be interested in sides and front in acrylic. Do ask about shipping though...
Also, if JvZ wants to make a buck I prefer to give him the business.
I will be passing the breakers paradise in Málaga this Friday and one of those hád a RHD one a year ago and they míght still have bits. You never know if they can beat shipping cost.
Quote from: jvanzyl on September 2, 2020, 18:33I'm sure there was a company that made these things for us.. can't remember who found them be interested to know how many kilos it saves.
Templar´s that was. Those were not replicas to fit the window winders though.
Acrylic is 1,2 gram/cm3
Car glass is 3.
Same thickness you will save almost 6 kg on the windscreen and about half that on the two doors.
High up weight too.
Just to play Devil's advocate it might be worth making some enquires about the legalities/insurance aspect of fitting such things for road use, UK wise I mean.
Windscreens are made from safety glass for a reason, probably side windows too, a sheet of acrylic isn't going to behave in the same way in an accident either for occupants or anyone you should happen to come into contact with.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 2, 2020, 22:14Just to play Devil's advocate it might be worth making some enquires about the legalities/insurance aspect of fitting such things for road use, UK wise I mean.
Windscreens are made from safety glass for a reason, probably side windows too, a sheet of acrylic isn't going to behave in the same way in an accident either for occupants or anyone you should happen to come into contact with.
Funnily enough I was about to be the fun-spoiler and post that. What I was thinking was that car glass is always safety glass that shatters into squillions of tiny parts.. For safety. Also, it shatters easily when a pointy hard object is introduced to it. Must all be for a reason...
But there's reason and then there's legality. Just a case of reading the MOT laws
Modern road cars by and large have no ´safety´ glass anymore. Most is laminar, certainly the windscreens.
Several road cars have lexan windows actually; from Smartfor2 to Porsche GT·.
The reasons glass is extensively used despite the obvious weight penalty and lexan being both stronger and more flexible are significantly lower cost and the scratch resistance.
Lexan btw has a lower light refraction than glass, several times better than layered glass, meaning clearer visibility...
"Safety" glass was just used as a generic term for laminated glass which by nature is safer in this application than non-laminated glass.
I know some modern, high end cars have alternatives to glass already but the issue here is they've been designed and manufactured with it from the start.
Swapping to plastic would likely fall foul of the regulations without proper notification.
Can lexan be smashed from the outside as easily? I'm thinking in an emergency situation.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 3, 2020, 07:05"Safety" glass was just used as a generic term for laminated glass which by nature is safer in this application than non-laminated glass.
Which is plain wrong and confusing use of the word. Safety glass is the term for hardened glass which upon impact fractures in small pieces, which was btw mentioned.
Lexan is safer still than laminated glass. It is per example used in motorcycle helmet visors, motorcycle fairings, aircraft.
The use in road cars underlines that there is not an issue to have it homologated.
Whether it is a legal of insurance issue to use it as aftermarket product is indeed a tricky issue which should be mentioned but something else completely; red tape. What is MoT permitted in the UK per example totally different from most EU countries whereas in the UK the insurers do their own thing again different from the EU territory.
Also many of our cars are illegal; an airbag resistor is just an example. This too illustrates the red tape as in several countries there is an option to switch off the passenger one. Too make it all more silly still, airbags are not obligatory but if fitted OEM then they should function...
Again; a legal/insurance should be mentioned but it is just that. See the use of all round lexan in the Porsche GT3. What is good window material for that car should be good for the little Spyder no?!
Quote from: bigfootisblurry on September 3, 2020, 08:28Can lexan be smashed from the outside as easily? I'm thinking in an emergency situation.
Not any more difficult than laminated glass and it is way easier to cut. A moot point in a cabrio btw; cutting/flipping the roof up is easiest.
My recollection about glass in everyday repmobiles is that my '73 Austin had a toughened glass windscreen, when that was hit by a stone on the M1 I couldn't see through it. The replacement was a " new" laminated screen. That got hit by another stone before I got into 5th!
The difference was that I could still see through it and continue.
My understanding is that in such everyday cars the windscreen is laminated, for that reason, and all others are toughened and break into "squillions of pieces", including the rear window which I have had break while in motion.
Quote from: Joesson on September 3, 2020, 09:22My understanding is that in such everyday cars the windscreen is laminated, for that reason, and all others are toughened and break into a "squillions of pieces", including the rear window which I have had break while in motion.
Make that móst cars coming from the production line now.
Laminated is increasingly used for other windows too as is lexan. We will see increased use of the latter as it is half the weight ánd tougher.
On a side note it should be mentioned that ´commercial use´ versions of several models of everyday cars the passenger and rear quarter windows are/can be replaced by sheet metal.
As I say, the legal/insurance issue it the only ´but´ and though real thus ´for off road use only´ a silly red tape butt as it is simply bétter.
Quote from: Petrus on September 3, 2020, 09:15Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 3, 2020, 07:05"Safety" glass was just used as a generic term for laminated glass which by nature is safer in this application than non-laminated glass.
Which is plain wrong and confusing use of the word. Safety glass is the term for hardened glass which upon impact fractures in small pieces, which was btw mentioned.
Lexan is safer still than laminated glass. It is per example used in motorcycle helmet visors, motorcycle fairings, aircraft.
The use in road cars underlines that there is not an issue to have it homologated.
Whether it is a legal of insurance issue to use it as aftermarket product is indeed a tricky issue which should be mentioned but something else completely; red tape. What is MoT permitted in the UK per example totally different from most EU countries whereas in the UK the insurers do their own thing again different from the EU territory.
Also many of our cars are illegal; an airbag resistor is just an example. This too illustrates the red tape as in several countries there is an option to switch off the passenger one. Too make it all more silly still, airbags are not obligatory but if fitted OEM then they should function...
Again; a legal/insurance should be mentioned but it is just that. See the use of all round lexan in the Porsche GT3. What is good window material for that car should be good for the little Spyder no?!
Which is why I directed it at the UK side of things where automotive "safety" glass has to be kite marked to the British Standard, I used to make it for a living.
This thread is also about acrylic side windows which are a totally different material to lexan, with different physical properties.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 3, 2020, 10:59Which is why I directed it at the UK side of things where automotive "safety" glass has to be kite marked to the British Standard, I used to make it for a living.
Even window tinting film needs be homologated.
Our 1984 car had foil fitted late eighties and was rejected on the foil not having homolgation mark at periodic inspection in 2018...
The UK made plastic windows come marked to meet the MSA, FIA and ABG regulations.
Seems it is not going to happen unless I make them myself; shipping is ludicrous; more than doubles cost. Back to the Málaga breakers option. Dropping by the local window guys tomorrow for a different thing anyway.
Step 1.: Two side windows from the breakers to use as molds and for the winding mechanism fixtures will cost me 39,- Euros all in.
Something like this might be worth it to you in terms of price-to-kilos of weight saved:
http://seiboncarbon.co.uk/products/oem-style-carbon-fiber-hood-for-2000-2005-toyota-mrs-2863.html They also do a rear deck etc.
Probably 10-15kg lighter? roughly a hundred euros per kilogram saved... Could even look into making your own from a carbon lay-up kit or fibreglass.
I assume you've already made all the cheap mods you can, so unfortunately weight reduction will likely start to get exponentially more expensive or likely to compromise function for daily use.
Perhaps a welded alloy subframe replacement?
You could go around the suspension and replace all the bolts with Ti equivalents?
Fill body cavities with Helium? (The car, not you!)
Quote from: iffyT on September 16, 2020, 13:38Something like this might be worth it to you in terms of price-to-kilos of weight saved:
http://seiboncarbon.co.uk/products/oem-style-carbon-fiber-hood-for-2000-2005-toyota-mrs-2863.html They also do a rear deck etc.
Probably 10-15kg lighter? roughly a hundred euros per kilogram saved... Could even look into making your own from a carbon lay-up kit or fibreglass.
Thank you for the suggestions.
Carbon bits are burdened by ludicrous shipping costs.
We have tried to get the bonnet and rear deck made in a group buy from within the EU but there is insufficient interest to make it cost effective.
Missed out on the cheap one that popped up on ebay a few months ago.
QuoteI assume you've already made all the cheap mods you can,
Yes. And then some.
Ti bolts are pigs as the material galls. Just fitted some for bling purpose only.
Quote from: Petrus on September 15, 2020, 20:08Seems it is not going to happen unless I make them myself; shipping is ludicrous; more than doubles cost. Back to the Málaga breakers option. Dropping by the local window guys tomorrow for a different thing anyway.
Step 1.: Two side windows from the breakers to use as molds and for the winding mechanism fixtures will cost me 39,- Euros all in.
Are you going to make them yourself? 39 euros looks like quite a nice deal, here id be spending the better part of 100 for just right and left window alone.
Quote from: Nvy on September 16, 2020, 15:02Are you going to make them yourself? 39 euros looks like quite a nice deal, here id be spending the better part of 100 for just right and left window alone.
Yes, will have a go; 38.50 € for the two OEM windows to use as mold is a good beginning.
Dropping by the window boys about acrylic later this afternoon.
Quote from: jvanzyl on September 2, 2020, 17:21Not to be an idiot here.. but how hard is it to change/remove a window? I've got a couple of spare doors (with the windows up!) and would quite like to get lighter windows myself.
I know i'm a bit late. Changing or removing a car window can vary in difficulty depending on the specific make and model of the vehicle. It typically requires some mechanical knowledge and the right tools. Here are a few general steps to give you an idea:
Gather the necessary tools: You may need tools like a screwdriver, trim panel removal tool, glass suction cups, and a window sealant.
Remove the door panel: Start by removing the door panel to access the window mechanism. This usually involves removing screws and clips and carefully prying off the panel.
As for me, it is easier and cheaper to replace on a car. I tried to replace at home, but was surprised at the price. As a result, I simply ordered aluminum windows from Poland in this site https://alumglass.eu/products/windows/ (https://alumglass.eu/products/windows/) . Better to wait than pay
On our MR2 door card removal is a less than 5 min. doddle. See Youtube.
In the end did not go forward with the plastic side windows because the material is too flexible for the frameless use. Pity as I have them down 95% of the time. Can´t have them flopping about when I do need them up though.
The diy windshield is back on my list but off topic here ...
One of my few positive contributions to the community
https://youtu.be/qHEjCLGzRm8
Whats the weight of the side window anyway?
Quote from: Nvy on June 4, 2023, 10:59Whats the weight of the side window anyway?
Now I am not going plastic I say the glass is light enough anyway :)) :))
No, seriously, they are quite compact. Have had the door cards off several times and the glass is really minimalistic cut. Hence I thought the flex issue not worth it.
Having manhandled a few doors, I reckon any weight savings are in redesigning the door, not the glass.
The doors weigh an absolute ton!
They're awkward to carry, making them feel a bit heavier than they are but I still reckon we're talking 25kg per door
There's a bit of bracing but can all be re-engineered for function over form.
Getting the doors down to 15kg would be a massive saving across both doors.
Or..replace with some bracing and have open sides during the summer :)
I'd not recommend plastic windows on a road car!
Even cleaning the windows on the track car as carefully and as little as possible - they scratch up and scratch up fast.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 4, 2023, 18:56Having manhandled a few doors, I reckon any weight savings are in redesigning the door, not the glass.
The doors weigh an absolute ton!
They're awkward to carry, making them feel a bit heavier than they are but I still reckon we're talking 25kg per door
There's a bit of bracing but can all be re-engineered for function over form.
Getting the doors down to 15kg would be a massive saving across both doors.
Or..replace with some bracing and have open sides during the summer :)
Had a look at the door internals when I had the cards off but apart from being a bit iffy even for me O:-) , I saw no practical way (to my relief) to get the extra side protection bar out.
For a road car I would want all the protection afforded to the doors for side impact safety. I do not care how much the door weighs and it's not just about being T-boned in an accident by an on coming car as you can easily get hit on the doors from other things as the car tumbles around. For a race car fine but for a passenger car I would want every available safety device that increases my survival and those that ride with me as Toyota intended.
Quote from: Dev on June 5, 2023, 18:54as Toyota intended.
There is a bit of a thing there as like most of these things, noise (p.e. the nappies for keeping as much engine noise as possible in the engine bay)and emissions, it was and is entirely regulation driven. I thínk that the first JDM cars did not have the extra door bars. Please note that I am not putting any of it up for discussion, just that Toyota simply followed the rules. See market specific airbag differences too. Thwas not that Toyota intended/cared more or less.
That's what stood out to me most, as per what
@Dev said; these doors are the way they are to protect you from the side. If you consider how "thin" the rest of the car is built, there's clearly a lot of thought behind it.
Also for the rigidity of the chassis I reckon
Quote from: Petrus on June 5, 2023, 19:08There is a bit of a thing there as like most of these things, noise (p.e. the nappies for keeping as much engine noise as possible in the engine bay)and emissions, it was and is entirely regulation driven. I thínk that the first JDM cars did not have the extra door bars. Please note that I am not putting any of it up for discussion, just that Toyota simply followed the rules. See market specific airbag differences too. Thwas not that Toyota intended/cared more or less.
I am not buying that Toyota is just following the rules. If there were no rules, Toyota would still add safety to their vehicles because they are an ethical company. Throughout automotive history other makes have cut corners, but there has also been a long history of pride of the manufacture to preserve life and some went above minimum safety standards like Volvo and Mercedes-Benz that has been adopted by the industry as a whole.
These manufactures dont just make cars for the public, they make them for their own families, so safety is a very big part of their mission. The regulations and crash safety testing is there to weed out the bad manufactures so consumers know what they are buying.
I am more sceptical Dev. Agin; have a look at the airbag in our MR2.
Good for you that you have this positive, trusting outlook.
Imo ´safety´ is a much abused magical marketing word since Nader highlighted it.
Anyway, no plastic side windows, the windscreen is still on the list.
Quote from: Petrus on June 6, 2023, 09:17I am more sceptical Dev. Agin; have a look at the airbag in our MR2.
Good for you that you have this positive, trusting outlook.
Imo ´safety´ is a much abused magical marketing word since Nader highlighted it.
Anyway, no plastic side windows, the windscreen is still on the list.
Thats not true. They have actual real world statistics and crash test data that have proven the efficacy of safety devices that not only has saved lives, it has massively cut down on hospitalization where those in the vehicle have walked away with minor injuries. They do this with continuous improvement with crash test dummies and collecting data from real accidents.
Just because you might have one data point or failed safety device on a particular car that can create the injury does not mean you can use backwards gymnastics to justify removing stuff from a car. This is flawed way of thinking to justify having a modification or removing safety devices and you just need to find a conflated reason to explain your reasoning because you want to save a few pounds.
Once they discover a fault with a safety system though discovery and testing then they issue recalls as they have done with air bags and other things to learn from their mistakes.
I do not agree with all the safety mechanisms but on the whole they have a proven track record of working.
I am a twice survivor because of those safety devices. With the white car the tow truck driver thought he was talking to a ghost when I approached him because he was certain the person driving had to have been transported or dead. The hit was so hard that the entire seat was bent and twisted.
(https://i.ibb.co/wRBfNJm/MVC-821S.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wRBfNJm)
(https://i.ibb.co/9YTQjxb/IMG-5384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9YTQjxb)
Blowing smoke Dev. As I wrote, not arguing safety or not. It is all rather funny imo as our car is a mid engined cabrio dubbed inherently dangeous on both counts according to some :))
About the safety of mods it is also mosty moot imo as some fit a 30% more powerful engine or ditto+ turbo without further changes like to brakes or crash protection.
Anyway, back to the manufacturers´ethics´ in our car, the airbags are only governed by regulations:
No passenger airbag JDM.
Passenger airbag with off switch for kids in Canada.
Just a sticker about no small kids in mine.
I would say marketing, regulations and lawsuits rule the magical word ´safety´.
And on the internet personal perceptions rule ;)
My UK car has a passenger off switch for the airbag. Are you labouring under the assumption that it was only Canada to support your argument
@Petrus? If so, you are wrong.
Quote from: Alex Knight on June 7, 2023, 07:47My UK car has a passenger off switch for the airbag. Are you labouring under the assumption that it was only Canada to support your argument @Petrus? If so, you are wrong.
Thanks for enlightening me about the UK. At least about yoúr car.
Never wrote ´only´...
Know it was in Canada for sure and here not.
Argument remains the same; regulations rule.
I also have the passenger air bag off switch.
No MR-S cars were sold in Canada.
-...and still the argument does not change.
Some markets don´t have a passenger airbag, some do incl. an off swith on it and some without. No ethics involved. Just regulations, litigation, cost.
Acrylic side windows,airbags, same difference...yup still on topic
::)
Quote from: shnazzle on June 7, 2023, 22:54Acrylic side windows,airbags, same difference...yup still on topic
::)
You forgot ethics ;D
For my part you can lock the thread as I am not going plastic for the side windows. And ... if I change my mind I will do so in sweet silence upsetting nobody 8)