M1tch's long term 1ZZ build - Project 11

[1979scotte]

Wouldn't bother to sleeve if at all possible.
As you say it's not exactly cheap.
Not sure what it gains you with a forged high boost engine.
NA is a different kettle of Ferret's

[m1tch]

Wouldn't bother to sleeve if at all possible.
As you say it's not exactly cheap.
Not sure what it gains you with a forged high boost engine.
NA is a different kettle of Ferret's

This is my exact thought, for a high CR NA build the extra displacement would be good, but as I am forcing air and fuel into the engine the displacement size plays a smaller role - although having stronger cylinder walls would be good if running much higher boost.

[shnazzle]

How much cylinder-splitting boost are you planning on running?  s:) s:)  30psi? Hehe.

[Nvy]

 m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... &start=150 m

I found this looking around. The guy is going with the small pistons too. Personally id run 12-15 psi daily and 20 psi for showing off on the drag strip  s:) s:)

[1979scotte]

10 psi as an everyday kind of thing.
17 psi for showing off.
25 psi for bragging down the pub.

[Nvy]

10 psi as an everyday kind of thing.
17 psi for showing off.
25 psi for bragging down the pub.

For 25 psi i think you would need some methanol to cool things down a bit. At least i would like to have it if im going for such boost.

[shnazzle]

Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.

10-11psi for daily.

12+ really is the realm of low comp.

20 is just silly.

[1979scotte]

Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.

10-11psi for daily.

12+ really is the realm of low comp.

20 is just silly.

I thought he was going forged low compression?
Is this not the case?
A 2zz on stock compression pistons can handle 13 psi if not more.
A 1zz stock will take 10 psi from a tiny t25 turbo.
Surely a fully forged low compression 1zz can take 20 psi.

[shnazzle]

Ah I've got threads crossed.
Yes indeed I would hope so

[1979scotte]

Ah I've got threads crossed.
Yes indeed I would hope so

You know VW how much do those 1.8t bam handle?

[m1tch]

Agreed. 12-15 (in my humble opinion) is too high for a 10:1 or 11:1 ratio.

10-11psi for daily.

12+ really is the realm of low comp.

20 is just silly.

The engine will be running low compression 8.8:1 pistons and am also planning to run meth injection at higher boost (already have the kit in the garage).

Would look to run quite low boost daily - say 6psi which would be the sort of power level the car should have had from factory, looking at PRSpyder's build and his Youtube video for their progression it shows that running around 21psi would give a low 11 second 1/4 mile pass which would be awesome if I got to that.

[shnazzle]

Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?

The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3

But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever

[m1tch]

Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?

The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3

But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever

I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?

[shnazzle]

Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?

The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3

But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever

I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?

Apologies for going off topic.

[m1tch]

Stock? The bam had some weakass rods. So, not a hell of a lot over stock. 320?

The newer cdl(a) etc can go 420+ all day long on stock parts. Needs almost every ancillary changed for that though haha.. So 6/2*3

But that's 8.5:1 or so? Once forged rods were added it can go stable at 350 forever

I am guessing this is a crosspost for a 1.8t?

Apologies for going off topic.

No its ok, I was looking at the 1.8t as an option for a project car, the BAM engine had weak rods and sludging issues but at least its a webbed block, did look at the 2.0 TFSI engine and found that the power was limited by the direct injectors (without going for an 8 injector setup).

Plan is to overengineer this car and run it at lower power most of the time - will look to run high boost every now and then but not all the time.

Its also worth noting that I did weight up A LOT of options in terms of project cars, I was going to go with the 2.0 TFSI but the car that the engine is fitted in would weigh around 300-400kg heavier (due to 4wd) than the MR2 meaning that I would need a much higher state of tune on a heavier car than it would for the lighter MR2 - its why I was looking at comparisons for the very heavy (but powerful) Nismo GTR.

I am wanting to build this engine and build it properly so that I can lean on it and not worry about something letting go, quite tempted to run 82mm pistons and liners simply because they will be stronger than the stock bores - I think you can even run the liners but run 79mm pistons if you wanted which would cope with boost.

Just thinking about all of the aspects of the engine, head is upgraded, rods, pistons, head studs, bearings will all be upgraded to cope, clutch will be upgraded, box will have upgraded 3rd and 4th gears, I guess the next weak points might be the drive shafts but should hold ok.

[1979scotte]

If funds are available running liners with stock sized pistons could be a winner strength wise.

[m1tch]

If funds are available running liners with stock sized pistons could be a winner strength wise.

This is quite a tempting option but need to check the costs to see if it's worth it, also run the risk of issues with the liner machining etc.

[shnazzle]

You can put rs4 injectors in the 2.0tfsi which takes you to about 600hp I think. Built block that is.

420 on stock with mainly breathing and exhaust mods and fueling.

Expensive block to build though due to its complexities.

A lot to be said for the BAM as they're cheap as chips.

Or... Stick to sleeving, low comp and bored

[m1tch]

You can put rs4 injectors in the 2.0tfsi which takes you to about 600hp I think. Built block that is.

420 on stock with mainly breathing and exhaust mods and fueling.

Expensive block to build though due to its complexities.

A lot to be said for the BAM as they're cheap as chips.

Or... Stick to sleeving, low comp and bored

Yeah the 1.8t blocks are cheap, parts for the TFSi engine are also good however it's not Japanese.

The RS4 injectors have the wrong spray pattern, there are some upgraded injectors that that are better than those if you know the part number...but decided to not go down that route.

[m1tch]

Just a quick note from a complete newbie engine builder, I was initially quite concerned about rebuilding my engine but the more I took it apart the simpler it seems to be, here are a few things I have found, you will notice that nothing is really difficult:

Chain tensioner came out with 2 bolts
There was a set of bolts holding on the cam caps which are easily accessible
Head is held on with a selection of head bolts - mine were quite tight but they came out ok
It took 2 bolts to remove each of the pistons
One big bolt holds on the crank pulley (needed a bit of force to remove though)
Few small bolts hold on the front cover
Few small bolts hold on the oil pump
A fair number of small bolts hold on the sump
3 bolts in total hold on the oil pick up
To remove the crank all you need to do is remove about 10 or so easy to get to (apart from the one under the oil filter cooler!) bolts and a the longer main bolts which are easy to get to.

Most of the bolts have been either 10mm or 12mm holding most of the parts onto the engine with just the head bolts, main bolts and pistons needing a slightly different socket.

I was amazed at how quickly the whole thing came apart - well apart from a few tighter head bolts, what I find amazing is that there were a few fairly average sized bolts holding the block together, the only thing you need to worry about when you put it back together would be checking clearances for the bearings it seems. I actually think the cylinder head is the most complicated part of the whole engine, I am guessing that there are more parts in the cylinder head than the rest of the engine combined!

I am actually looking forward to taking apart my stock engine for a minor rebuild when the time comes to swap that out  s:) s:)

[shnazzle]

How did you undo the crank pulley? Did you make a tool to hold the pulley or was it an impact gun job?

[m1tch]

How did you undo the crank pulley? Did you make a tool to hold the pulley or was it an impact gun job?

Engine was on the engine stand, simply put 4 flywheel bolts back in (the flywheel was off when I got the engine to help reduce weight getting it in and out of the car), I then locked the crank using a long screwdriver through the 4 bolts which then locked against the engine stand - I then just used a breaker bar on the front bolt to undo it. Didn't want to use an impact gun on it, need to sort an air powered gun at some point (Only have a 24v electric one).

[shnazzle]

Clever  s:) s:)
Thanks

[m1tch]

Clever  s:) s:)
Thanks

Saying that it did help using a 1M 3/4" breaker bar!

I am currently in the process of talking with the local engine machining shop to see what the costs are for running the Darton sleeves and then either running the 79.5mm pistons or the 82mm pistons - thought being is whilst I am in there I might as well upgrade everything I can do to make the engine bulletproof. I am looking at even sleeving the block but then running close to stock sized pistons as the bores would be thicker and stronger vs running the engine bored out to 82mm - the bores being closer together coupled with the extra cost of the head gasket etc.

[m1tch]

Just got off the phone with the local engine machine shop, here are the costs for each option (for piston and bore work minus other parts such as rods as they are the same for each option) - partly for my record and partly to help anyone else work out costs for them:

'Stock' bore:

79.5mm pistons - £590
Bore out the cylinder on stock sleeves - £30 a cylinder = £120
Head gasket is stock size so would come in the Toyota engine gasket kit

Cost: £710 - machine work costs 20% of the total cost

3mm overbore - 82mm:

82mm piston (using MWR pricing they are around 14% cheaper than the 79.5mm) - ~£510
Darton dry sleeves - around £320
Machine block and fit sleeves - £150 per cylinder = £600
Bore out sleeves to fit 82mm pistons - £30 a cylinder = £120
Aftermarket headgasket (due to overbore) - £100

Cost: £1,650 - machine work costs 43% of the total cost

Stock engine displacement - 1794cc
79.5mm engine displacement - 1816.8cc (+1.27% above stock)
82mm engine displacement - 1932.9cc (+7.74% above stock, 6.39% above 79.5mm)

There is a £940 difference between the 'stock' bore and the sleeved option, this means that it costs £147 per % increase in displacement.

I don't believe there are any 79mm forged piston options for this engine (they start at 79.5mm) - although have been told by TCB that there might be some in the pipework, would probably be happier if the cylinders are bored and honed fresh rather than simply replacing the pistons with forged - would need to check the piston to wall clearance.