Side mount intercooler worthwhile?

[MrT]

Hello forum
I've tried to search info on the forum, mostly saying it's a bigger to plumb, but that aside, is it worth using a side mount air-air intercooler for a low power fi build? My ambition is 200whp and torques only and this seems very reasonable even without cooling so why is it not done?

Any pics of attempts to do this would also be appreciated.

Thanks

[Essex2Visuvesi]

I played around with several different intercooler locations when I was playing with my FI build
The problem I always came accross was pipe runs and making them look tidy
I had a stock intercooler for a Renault 5 Gt turbo in the shed so played around with fitting it behind the battery

I couldn't figure out a tidy way to route the pipework
I still have it if you want it to have a play?

[SteveJ]

The side vents are actually a low pressure area so there's very little in the way of airflow into them unless you add protruding scoops.
The Hass kit (240 hp) used an inter cooler mounted on the cross member with a deflector panel to push air up into it. The TTE kit used a small intercooler mounted forward of the gearbox and a mod-panel to the undertray to push air into it.

Inter coolers are fine until you get in traffic then they heat-soak rather quickly. For the sake of a couple of hours installing it's far better to use a charge cooler due to its increased thermal mass - it's an absolute doddle to fit the Fiat Punto rad in front of the existing rad (even if you have air on) and you get the benefit of the existing fans to cool it when stuck in traffic.

[lamcote]

If you're wanting 200whp, that's going to be around 230 bhp at the flywheel which equates to about a 68% power increase over the standard engine.

I would have thought that's going to be way past the point where effective intercooling becomes an essential requirement? I reckon intercooling becomes beneficial at anything over c.4psi (depending on intercooler efficiency), 200whp will need an awful lot more boost than that.

[Essex2Visuvesi]

The Focus RS Mk1 chargecooler Rad fits nicely behind the stock front radiator as longs as you are not running AC

[MrT]

Thanks for all the helpful info folks.

1. Side scoops should be waiting for me at work tomorrow, so that's always been the plan.

2. I'm not sure any cooler pipework in the 2 is convenient bar an inline charge cooler which I feel would be too small... So whatever it becomes it'll be as good as it gets.

3. Definitely need cooling for my power target, but a) I won't be using 200whp sat in traffic and b) I won't be using it majority of the time. I don't want to plan for the exception and expect to be using full throttle or max power all the time, we drive to the conditions.

I was also considering running 2 intercoolers due to the amount of airflow and cooling  capacity  of the  scoops but I don't like all that pipework length or ensuing lag.

4) although not stated I do expect to run water injection so if the intercooling gave me enough cooking for 95% of my use at 50% power then the water would step in and give the rest of the cooling I need both to charge temps and combustion/knock temps.

That's the thought process but of course the setup has to fit and work to be successful...

Also, everyone defaults to mounting the intercooler on the left side but there's a lot of other stuff in the way, wiring loom, throttle cables, battery etc. Why not on the right side other than stock manifold enters from the left?

I realise I'm messing with tested configurations but I'm like that, pull it to bits first before you try to use it, just to know how it works and that it works the best it could... Not necessary but this is as much a hobby/passion as practicality.

[dan944]

You've probably seen it but this is what I'm using. Getting about 40 degrees under a few hard pulls at 5psi. I have side scoops as it should help air through the bay in general.
I'm looking to build a little ally scoop on the Ic to scoop in more air.
No heat shields or wrapping yet.

If I can get down to 35 degrees I'll be happy ish.

I think key with IC is exhaust above it.

[dan944]

Ps. I'm also aiming for 200whp.

[MrT]

Thanks Dan
I thought of mounting an intercooler that way and having a diffuser wrap up from subframe to bumper and the IC being below and also ducted behind to extract hot air. But I don't like the length of pipework resulting. And I want all my torques to play around 2-4k so lag will be a problem in this situation.

But I'm interested in a similar setup in front of the engine, ducting air up through an IC and under the engine to the diffuser again. Not the smoothest airflow but it would be cool.

Ultimately though, the charge cooler seems the ultimate solution for our packaging challenges in sad to say (only because I wanted a simpler solution).

[dan944]

Diffuser leading up to it with s scoop and vents behind us what I want ultimately. Charge cooler is the way forward.  No doubt about it.
I've not got on the rolling road yet but I can get max boost by 2.5k. Maybe even less. I've clocked 3psi at 1300 rpm which I think is the lowest I've achieved.

[dan944]

What turbo would you be using out of curiosity?

[MrT]

A mechanical one, made by Eaton... Model M45... Similar to Carolynne's turbo build [emoji23]

Dan that's pretty impressive spooling! I've been wondering whether chasing the SC route was just complicated and I'm only pursuing  it because I decided I preferred the idea of SC. I'd love to see  what your Dyno graph looks  like when it's mapped. I noticed the other chap posted one in your build thread and that was impressive also, full torques at 3k and more thank stock torque at the wheels from 1.5k.

So I can't see why not to go turbo and save myself headache. Except to be in the exclusive club of SC cars with the lovely Carolynne!

[MrT]

Think I need to come to ding day and see all the incarnations of forced induction cooling people use.

[dan944]

Ahh. I forgot you were going supercharger.
That should provide a lovey drive though. Although mine still isn't mapped correctly it mostly drives like an NA. You have to be in the really low revs to have extremely noticeable lag I feel.

[MrT]

Don't worry about that until it's mapped, my Na has lag below about 1.6k... just efficiency of the combustion chamber and airflow paths. Probably also my PPE headers and short cold intake. And the SC probably won't be vastly better unless running high speed/max pressure which I won't do, just yet.

[MrT]

Anyway we're a bit sidetracked here. When I get my scoops tomorrow I'll mark up and post my planned mods and see what people think about them offering better cooling for a side mount. I hope to have as good airflow as Dan944 style rear mount so should have 200whp in sight and can fall back to water injection at higher speeds when SC gets hotter.

[MrT]

Sorry I didn't post these last week folks. This is how I intend to reshape the scoop and then create a smooth duct from the leading edge of the scoop onto the original vent opening in the wing and through a short distance to allow ducting air straight to an intercooler or intake etc. Duct should just be thin plastic and I'm not sure whether to put a mesh on the vent opening to stop crap being sucked in etc but it should fall back out again if it can't get past the opening (intercooler blocking opening).





What do people think to this, I see it performing similar to say a Subaru WRX intercooler scoop so should have plenty capacity for cooling a 240hp 1zz?

[dan944]

I like the mod to the side vent. Wish I'd done mine tbh. And also like the idea of smoothing the inside to direct air into the side vent. Next time I eat my rear wings Off I'll be making some modifications i think haha.
I'll probs go with woven fibreglass sheet to smooth the inside.

[lamcote]

The proof will be in the IATs. What the airflow does down the side of the car is anyone's guess really.

[Nvy]

Just an idea:

What if we fit one above the exhaust, shield it good from the exhaust and make some ducts in the engine lid to channel air to it? Also replace the rear bumper black plastics with a mesh to let the air go out easily? I saw similar setup on youtube on a 600 hp Porsche.

[BahnStormer]

Just an idea:

What if we fit one above the exhaust, shield it good from the exhaust and make some ducts in the engine lid to channel air to it? Also replace the rear bumper black plastics with a mesh to let the air go out easily? I saw similar setup on youtube on a 600 hp Porsche.

I'm all up for a novelty project, but I thought the idea of this was to REDUCE the complexity of a FM chargecooler... and it's sounding a lot more complex and risky already... TBH, I'm quite in favour of putting some more weight in the nose to balance the car a little better and since there's zero chance of heatsoak when your radiator is ~3m in front of the engine (with a passenger compartment in the middle), it is going to be more thermally efficient than all the lagging in the world, plus you're leaving a little more space in the engine bay for airflow.

My aim will also be to get a little over 200wbhp eventually (next year!) and although I accept it won't really affect the peak wbhp on the dyno, it will make the car more consistent in the real world, going back and forth between spirited country lane driving and sitting in traffic.... so I've more or less convinced myself that this is the best way to avoid the heatsoak that I envisage being a potential problem for my use-case and I'd rather do it on the initial install than after I've had recurring thermal problems.

[Mr X]

This is what I did:




STD setup:


Scoop and K&N apollo:

I like the mod to the side vent. Wish I'd done mine tbh. And also like the idea of smoothing the inside to direct air into the side vent. Next time I eat my rear wings Off I'll be making some modifications i think haha.
I'll probs go with woven fibreglass sheet to smooth the inside.

[MrT]

Thanks folks, all valid observations. Yes, charge air temperature will measure the success of all this.

I agree with bahnstormer, the charge cooler is ultimately superior in performance but my view is it may be excessive for modest performance.

I also worry that the scoop air flow/pressure will be insufficient for intercooling at high loads and low speeds. However, majority of the time these will not be the conditions and my mitigation for that would be water injection to further control charge air temps.

I guess I should mention a slight side agenda that I WANT to run water injection and slightly higher charge temps will assist vapourising the water which inversely gives better charge cooling as well as supporting a leaner or cooler detonation.

Conclusion then, I believe this will be effective in conjunction with the water injection and an ECU to effectively control fueling and water injection accordingly.

However running without water injection and seeking 200whp + I must insist on charge cooling personally.