Effects on geometry of lowering springs

[Mr Lazy]

Hello everyone. My car has been off the road for many months, but I am nearly at the point where it will be back on the road again. I'm thinking about having some fun and lowering it a bit. I did consider coilovers, but having read various posts about them here, it seems to be far from an ideal solution for the road, even if I am prepared to pay for the financial outlay. As with most things, there are clearly compromises to deliberate over. Therefore, I'm thinking that fitting lowering springs (Teins perhaps?) could be a good cheap way to get a taste of what the car is like lowered. I know they will probably cause premature wear on the standard dampers due to the stiffer spring rates, but I will reluctantly accept that, knowing that I will probably need to replace them before too long anyway.

My question is regarding geometry though, and I can't find an answer when I search for it. I know that a geometry setup is recommended after fitting lowering springs, but it seems to me that the changes that can be made are very limited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any camber adjustment front or rear as standard. Those cam plates at the rear that are sometimes referred to as camber adjusting plates look like they adjust toe in to me, not camber. Do people just accept the compromised handling and increased tyre wear? I want a car that is set up to ride well when it is going straight. Even if it can be adjusted, the linkages will be at a different place in their arc of movement, so the rate of change of camber will be different as the suspension moves. Similarly, even if front toe in is adjusted, surely excessive bump steer is likely due to the different arcs of the linkages? Do people just put up with this or are the effects not very noticeable in reality?

To clarify, the car is for reasonably spirited road riding, absolutely no track days, and the main reason for lowering is for looks. I'm not interested in extreme lowering or a very harsh ride.

[Dev]

You should not have any geometry problems with lowering springs. The drop is mild and the car might handle a little better because the lower center and because when you lower the car it will have some negative camber which is beneficial. The negative camber is not going to cause premature wear as long as the toe is corrected back to OEM specification.
As far as the ride goes it is very mild and closer to the OEM suspension because the springs are designed around the limitations of the damper and if it wasn't it would make handling worse.
 In a nutshell the lowering springs are mostly for looks but they do help with the handling in a limited way so you should be fine without any bump steer that you find in other cars.
 

[Mr Lazy]

Thanks Dev. What is your setup?

Do others concur with this?

[Nvy]

Thanks Dev. What is your setup?

Do others concur with this?

Unless you drive with some crazy camber its going to be fine. Prior suspension mods I had KYB with TTE springs, rear camber was -1.2 and the car felt awesome, also the wear was quite okay. Did 1500 kms with -2.2 and the wear is also fine. This is road driving, no track days..

[Carolyn]

I concur with Dev.

I would add that new stock springs with fresh OEM dampers are very hard to better on our pot-hole ridden, speed-bump infested, roads.

When I refreshed my stock suspension I was amazed at how well set up this car was when it was brand new.

But, the cars do look better lowered, I've no doubt of that.

[Mr Lazy]

Thanks both of you. Nvy, was your rear camber angle a direct consequence of lowering or were you able to adjust it somehow? Carolyn, it does go to show that Toyota know what they are doing, which is reassuring! It goes to show that any modifications we make to our cars (suspension, engine tuning etc) are usually just a different compromise, rather than a no brainer improvement.

[Nvy]

Thanks both of you. Nvy, was your rear camber angle a direct consequence of lowering or were you able to adjust it somehow? Carolyn, it does go to show that Toyota know what they are doing, which is reassuring! It goes to show that any modifications we make to our cars (suspension, engine tuning etc) are usually just a different compromise, rather than a no brainer improvement.

You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.

[Mr Lazy]

You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.

Where are camber bolts fitted? Do they adjust the position of the top of the strut or do they somehow move the position of the hub relative to the base of the strut?

[Nvy]

You can fit camber bolts and adjust the camber with OEM shocks. -1.2 was the best the guy could do at that time. I dont rly sweat much on these anymore. I decided that my car has way too many rare parts to wreck it on the track. So now is as close as OEM as it can be, ill maybe fit turbo kit and new seats and will call it for some time.

Where are camber bolts fitted? Do they adjust the position of the top of the strut or do they somehow move the position of the hub relative to the base of the strut?

2nd, try google for some clips.

[Dev]

Thanks Dev. What is your setup?

Do others concur with this?

 I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
 There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.

[Mr Lazy]

I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
 There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.

Interesting, thanks. Even budget springs would be quite a financial investment for me, so I think I'll stick with the cheap lowering springs "experiment" idea for now, but I'll keep those brands in mind for the future.

[Dev]

I run with Tein SSP coilovers. They are aggressive but because they are researched and designed for the street they do dampen the road better than the OEM suspension and is a transformative experience for the entire car. They are not anywhere near the clumsy and harshness of the cheap Twainese budget products that are just stiff and give coilovers a negative reputation. They are not available anymore however the only other true street options are the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3 however they are expensive for a good reason.
 There isn't any middle ground from lowering springs than a researched set if you want OEM like quality.

Interesting, thanks. Even budget springs would be quite a financial investment for me, so I think I'll stick with the cheap lowering springs "experiment" idea for now, but I'll keep those brands in mind for the future.

Which lowering springs are you considering?


 

[Mr Lazy]

2nd, try google for some clips.

Is that the ones at the inboard end of the rearmost suspension linkages at the rear? If so, that's the ones I was referring to in my first post. They look like they would adjust toe-in to me, but perhaps they do indeed adjust camber as they are attached to the hubs lower that the drive shafts.

[Mr Lazy]

Which lowering springs are you considering?
 

I'm only really at the casual looking "what if" stage, but the Tein S ones seem to be mentioned here quite a bit. I just want something that keeps the car level (it is a facelift 03 car) and doesn't lower it or affect ride too excessively.

[Ardent]

Stock shocks and tein s springs here.

A quality geo will see you right.

No excess tyre wear, all good.

[Dev]

Which lowering springs are you considering?
 

I'm only really at the casual looking "what if" stage, but the Tein S ones seem to be mentioned here quite a bit. I just want something that keeps the car level (it is a facelift 03 car) and doesn't lower it or affect ride too excessively.

The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched. 
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.

[Mr Lazy]

Great, well opinions seem unanimous so far that lowering springs cause no discernible geometry problems. With a set of quality springs costing little more than a single replacement brake caliper (I've been replacing and refurbishing brake calipers etc recently) then I might as well just get a set and give it a go. Just one more question though...it looks like the camber adjustment bolt is on the rear only, so does that mean that there could still be non-adjustable excessive negative camber at the front after lowering?

[Gaz mr-s]

The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched. 
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.

Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.

Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles.  I have a car in the 50's that needs them.

O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts.  TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.

[Mr Lazy]

Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.

Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles.  I have a car in the 50's that needs them.

O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts.  TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.

My car has (allegedly) only done about 40k miles and the struts seem ok at the moment, but it's an 18 year old car and I know all too well that what seems to work fine one day can suddenly fail the next day. I didn't know that about Toyata supplied springs + struts, thanks.

[Dev]

The Teins would be fine. So would the other reputable companies that make lowering springs for this car because they have been researched. 
Just keep in mind if your struts have miles on them the effect of lowering springs will unveil themselves and make things worse for you. Most usually refresh the struts with new KYB if you want the best experience.

Yep, I was reading down this thread from the top & was wondering if anyone had picked up on new-springs-only.

Some think that the O/E shocks are past their best at 50k miles.  I have a car in the 50's that needs them.

O/P, you may not know, but lowering springs could be bought from Toyota on the KYB struts.  TRD?- not sure, but they were reputedly made by Eibach.

Thats not uncommon. The OEM struts are only good for 45k miles from my experience and then after driving many examples they were finished also but the owner did not know what to look for.
The fault with the OEM is not when you are driving normally but when you are in mid-corner and cant feel the car due to mid corner float. For that brief amount of time the car is not adequately controlled  by the struts that it makes it feel dangerous and therefore you slow down. Most owners drive this way and are often perplexed why some are able to drive faster around turns with authority when they fear the car thinking its a mid engine thing.
Judging for performance is very different than judging struts for a normal wearing commuter car with lazy suspension as it gets older.

[Gaz mr-s]

My car has (allegedly) only done about 40k miles and the struts seem ok at the moment, but it's an 18 year old car and I know all too well that what seems to work fine one day can suddenly fail the next day. I didn't know that about Toyata supplied springs + struts, thanks.

Save your money until you can buy new struts & springs....two of us saying so.
Normally the cheapest place for struts is TCB (don't go to Toyota)  Sometimes they are part of discount deals on ebay....probably the cheapest option.
I said Toyota supplied the springs (past tense)...I believe they were an option....in other words had official approval. Teins are most common choice nowadays.

[Dev]

2nd, try google for some clips.

Is that the ones at the inboard end of the rearmost suspension linkages at the rear? If so, that's the ones I was referring to in my first post. They look like they would adjust toe-in to me, but perhaps they do indeed adjust camber as they are attached to the hubs lower that the drive shafts.

As far as camber adjustment for our car there isn't any. We can only adjust toe however when you do that it does change the camber value.  You can buy camber adjusters but I personally would only do that if I wanted more negative camber not less.

You shouldn't have to worry about that, I would just get the toe alignment set back to OEM. I like my front toe to be 0 and my rear toe to be very slightly positive for high speed handling.  Don't worry if your camber numbers are a little off from each other, toe is more important especially for tire wear.

[McMr2]

Another one for Tein springs and KYB struts, hard to fault for the cost. Have run mine on these for 4 years. Keeps some compliance for any B road action.

Only gripe I have is that the arch gap on the front looks wider compared to the rear, but that might be just the wheel setup I have.

[Beachbum957]

We have run stock, Tein-S, and H&R springs.  As for geometry, the lowering springs do increase negative camber a bit, but not enough to be a worry.  While many suggest camber isn't adjustable, there is a small amount of play in the strut bolts so it is possible to change it slightly without camber bolts.  With H&R springs, and using the slight play and stock bolts, we ended at -1.1 - -1.2 front and -1.5 - -1.7 rear.  That works well and is still within the allowed OEM tolerances.

Stock struts or new KYB will work OK with lowering springs, but the damping doesn't quite match the stiffer springs.  There are conditions where the rebound damping seems a bit weak, like the feeling from worn struts with stock springs on bumpy roads.  I suspect many think the stock struts are worn out quickly with stiffer springs because the rebound damping was too weak to start with.  We went with Koni inserts which have less compression damping than stock and allow changing the rebound.  They work very well with lowering springs.

As for the springs, we like the H&R better than the Tein.  They don't lower quite as much (about 1/2" or 13mm less) and measure slightly stiffer.  The overall ride isn't than far from stock

Lowering springs do have downsides.  The big one is ground clearance as even the H&R lower about 1" (25 mm) front and rear.  The Tein lower more and we had issues with the Tein on speed bumps, steep driveways, and any obstacles on the road. The slightly higher H&R reduced those issues

Another downside is reduced suspension travel.  With the Tein springs, the front is almost sitting on the OEM bump stops when sitting still.  So on almost any bump, the stiff bump stops come into play.  The original Tein instructions recommended cutting the front stops .8" (20 mm), but we cut them slightly more to just under the groove for the boots  or 1" (25mm).  H&R doesn't have any recommendation, the cut front stops work nicely with them and it takes a big bump to get to the bump stops.  The read bump stops can be left stock

But if you are driving a lot on really rough roads, stock springs and new struts like KYB work very well.  We went with Koni's on stock springs and that works a bit better, but it may be hard to justify the cost.

[Beachbum957]

For anyone who is wondering about how long Konis last, we bought a used set of struts with Koni inserts with over 90,000 miles just for the housings.  The fronts were still working fine, but had noticeable wear on the strut rods so they were replaced.  The rears were still OK and had no visible issues, and we ran them for almost 10,000 miles before replacement.  The new rear inserts ended with the same settings as the old ones and worked the same.