Hass turbo mapped at Thor Racing - results and pictures

Slacey · May 22, 2005, 10:40

Friday the 20th saw me take a trip down to Thor Racing to get my Hass equipped car mapped by guys who know what they are doing (they are considered one of the best ECU mappers in the UK) as I wasn't 100% confident in the car while running a US tuned map. From what I'd heard from a number of US owners the map supplied was running quite lean to up the power figures, but I was a little more interested in my engine lasting a while longer! This was later confirmed when a run at 8psi on the original map had the entire manifold glowing red hot s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

The guys there were friendly and knowledgable, and were well impressed with the kit, both it's layout and quality which was nice to hear. Also they were happy for me to get involved in the process which put me at ease, and made the trip much more interesting. Below are some pics of the job, along with a selection of the dyno plots we took throughout the day.

As for the map, it worked out nicely - I asked for a reasonably safe tune, with a map that would take me up to 10psi on pump super unleaded with ease.

The power figure worked out quite nicely in the end, being as follows:

Horsepower:

6psi = 235 at the flywheel, 202 at the wheels
8psi = 251 at the flywheel, 215 at the wheels
9.7psi = 263 at the flywheel, 225 at the wheels

Torque:

6psi = 187ftlb at the flywheel, 160ftlb at the wheels
8psi = 202ftlb at the flywheel, 173ftlb at the wheels
9.7psi = 223ftlb at the flywheel, 191ftlb at the wheels

Overall I am happy with those, and it gives us the potential to tweak further as confidence / no broken bits grows.

As my car weighed in at 1044kg last week (with a full tank of petrol), it was interesting to see that at with the figures above, I am happily over 200bhp per ton, and after digging around on Google I worked out the power-to-weight ratios.

At 6.5psi it equaled 0.102, the same as a Porsche Carrera
At 8psi it equaled 0.109, better than a Corvette
At 9.7psi it equaled 0.114, just under the figure for an Esprit V8 s8)

s8)

The pics -

Torque (left side) and HP (right side)

A trace of the boost levels

Torque (left side) and AFR's (right side)

This last one shows a comparison of my Hass kit compared to a PE kitted car that Rogue Systems ran a while back (the light blue trace)

aaronjb · May 22, 2005, 14:17

Top job Sean - impressive figures and I'm especially impressed by just how smooth those curves are, especially compared to the Himalaya-like PE chart! Log manifolds aren't dead yet, obviously s;)

s;)

The AFR chart is wild, though! One of those traces (hard to tell which at those sizes) is all over the shop..

Quote from: "Slacey"At 6.5psi it equaled 0.102, the same as a Porsche Carrera
At 8psi it equaled 0.109, better than a Corvette
At 9.7psi it equaled 0.114, just under the figure for an Esprit V8 s8) s8)

One question though - how did you work those out? I imagined P/W would be bhp divided by weight (either metric or imperial), but no matter how I plug your figures in, I can't come up with those numbers s:? :? s:? So I must be missing something s:)

s:) (I was going to compare it with a few of my old cars s:)

s:) )

(As an aside, I used to work with a guy who owned an Esprit V8.. dribble-licious cars. Just a shame all the switchgear was straight out of an Astra!)

Oh and.. please stop tempting me to spend money I don't have, you bad, bad man s;)

s;)

Oh and one final thing - assuming your 'at the wheels' figures are what came straight off the Dynapack - technically those are 'at the hub' figures, since you're not accounting for frictional losses between the tyres and the road (not to mention the rotating mass of the wheels) s;)

s;)

heathstimpson · May 22, 2005, 15:39

Very impressive results Sean; I'm getting more and more tempted to eventually go the Turbo route s:? :? s:? Nice write up too s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

SteveJ · May 22, 2005, 16:42

In defence of the PE kitted car, it was using standard injectors with no piggy-back ECU, so was restricted to running very low boost pressure.

Nice figures from yours though Sean s:)

s:)

BenF · May 22, 2005, 21:25

Sean,

Great post

and fantastic to see someone in the UK doing some real dyno tuning and getting the kind of detail you've shown there with AFRs, boost levels and power runs.

Ta for posting the info also over on IMOC - there is a lot of interest there as well in this kind of route, there are plenty of people comfortable with modifying their Mk2 MR2s (*cough*) who would look seriously at doing this.

My Roadster is down at Millway at the moment having mph's PE kit installed and it should hopefully be done for Tuesday - I'm really looking forwards to driving the car afterwards and seeing the difference it makes.

As for a comparison to the PE turbo'd car, I can't make sense of that power run - if it was 'hopping' on the dyno that would explain the dips and curves, but Thor's dynos bolt directly onto the hubs, don't they? Something looks wrong with the runs - it would feel horrible to drive apart from anything else!

Anonymous · May 22, 2005, 21:53

Nice figures, so were the maps Hass supplied anywhere near or did Thor need to totally remap?

QuoteAs for a comparison to the PE turbo'd car, I can't make sense of that power run - if it was 'hopping' on the dyno that would explain the dips and curves, but Thor's dynos bolt directly onto the hubs, don't they? Something looks wrong with the runs - it would feel horrible to drive apart from anything else!

As Steve says this was a PE turbo with no piggyback, it hasn't been given any tuning to iron out the flat spots, without this and injectors it must of been at 4.5psi.Not the best comparison if that's the case.

BenF · May 23, 2005, 00:40

Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"As Steve says this was a PE turbo with no piggyback, it hasn't been given any tuning to iron out the flat spots, without this and injectors it must of been at 4.5psi.Not the best comparison if that's the case.

Doh! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Fair point.

What does the Piggyback do then? I'd have thought it would tinker with the timing advance to prevent detonation.

Thinking about that torque curve, that could be due to the standard ECU backing the timing off massively as it is picking up detonation on boost?

BenF · May 23, 2005, 00:44

Sean,

A bit of a tangent - @10psi with nearly 200ft/labs going through the rear tyres, have you had any traction problems in the dry with the car yet?

Is this still with the standard clutch too BTW?

Anonymous · May 23, 2005, 02:37

Slacey-

Nice numbers, those are about what my Stage II put down. Did you go with the MAP sensor or is that off the MAF?

Anonymous · May 23, 2005, 03:19

Monster Car! Glad you got it properly sorted.

Slacey · May 23, 2005, 08:33

Guys, thanks for the positive comments!

I'll try to answer some of those questions....

Quote from: "aaronjb"One question though - how did you work those out? I imagined P/W would be bhp divided by weight (either metric or imperial), but no matter how I plug your figures in, I can't come up with those numbers So I must be missing something (I was going to compare it with a few of my old cars )

Aaron, my maths is poor to say the least, so I used this website - m http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepower ... _ratio.php m to calculate them for me, entering the power in horsepower and the weight in kilograms (1044). Bear in mind I used the figures at the flywheel, which is what the manufacturers will quote.

Quote from: "SteveJ"In defence of the PE kitted car, it was using standard injectors with no piggy-back ECU, so was restricted to running very low boost pressure.

This may well be correct - Pete did say that the car had been brought over from Japan and that Patrick wanted to know what the car was up to, so made that one run. It was used as a comparison as it was the only other turbo MK3 they had run on the dyno.

Quote from: "BenF"A bit of a tangent - @10psi with nearly 200ft/labs going through the rear tyres, have you had any traction problems in the dry with the car yet?

Errr, yes! I only ran at 10psi once last week, and turned it back down again (and good job too on the Hass map). Pete took the car out after the dyno tuning and ran it at 10psi, saying the clutch slipped once then seemed to settle down again. It is still the stock item. Until my RPS goes in the boost will not go over the 8 psi 'low' setting s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Quote from: "ragtoprollin"Nice numbers, those are about what my Stage II put down. Did you go with the MAP sensor or is that off the MAF?

I believe they used a combination, as the equipment they used read off both, but I think the main source was the MAF.

Anonymous · May 23, 2005, 09:01

nice map there matey :-) :-) :-) makes me wish I had took mine on the RR when I was runing 12 psi s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

I'll be using Thor when I get the GT4 back as they are as you say very well respected

good work bud :-) :-) :-)

Anonymous · May 23, 2005, 18:13

Congrats and thanks for posting this up.

Couple questions:

Where did Thor put the WB?

Are these 4th gear pulls?

Is that a ground cable connected to the driver side manifold stud or what?

Paint them hangars buddy!

Those heavy arsed V8's better watch their 6!

aaronjb · May 23, 2005, 18:52

Quote from: "wts"Is that a ground cable connected to the driver side manifold stud or what?

The blob on the end of the wire looks like a detonation sensor to me..

Slacey · May 23, 2005, 19:05

Quote from: "wts"Congrats and thanks for posting this up.

Couple questions:

Where did Thor put the WB?

Are these 4th gear pulls?

Is that a ground cable connected to the driver side manifold stud or what?

Paint them hangars buddy!

Those heavy arsed V8's better watch their 6!

Bill,

Thor tapped the left side O2 sensor to the right hand side one (a lá MWR) and put the wideband in the left hand bung.

All the pulls were indeed in 4th.

As for the cable, Aaron is right - it was a copper tube bolted to an empty bolt hole above the manifold, which had a hose running from it to a pair of headphones used to listen for knock - you can see Pete wearing them in the last picture.

As for the hangers - yes, disgraceful aren't they! When I'm completely happy with the setup I'll drop them all off, clean them and paint them.

Lastly, yes - most performance cars around better watch out, if I'm not any quicker I'll at least give them a scare s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

dimwit · May 25, 2005, 16:57

Sean,
What hour session did you go for in the end, they told me a good mapping should take about 2.5 hrs... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Slacey · May 25, 2005, 16:59

I arrived at 9am and left at just after 1pm, but I reckon dyno time probably was around 2 hours plus (I didn't pay much attention to time TBH!).

BTW - nice to see you around again s:)

s:)

dimwit · May 25, 2005, 17:18

Quote from: "Slacey"BTW - nice to see you around again s:) s:)

s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Been busy at the moment (work wise), Going to give Thor a ring now, see when he can book me in...Just going to hope that manifold holds out s:!: :!: s:!:

Anonymous · May 26, 2005, 11:19

whats up with the manifold? I specially had it stengthened with extra steel bracing when I had it s:? :? s:?

Hope4Sun · May 26, 2005, 11:27

Nice work Sean, and great figures, you'd better be getting the magazines informed for an article s:)

s:) , i hopefully look forward to getting a ride (maybe i can convince the girl friend the 2 need some more toys s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: )

Andy

dimwit · May 26, 2005, 15:17

Quote from: "perry190"whats up with the manifold? I specially had it stengthened with extra steel bracing when I had it s:? :? s:?

PM'd

philster_d · May 26, 2005, 18:07

Im interested in the costs involved. Eg the kit, the fitting.

Thanks,
Philster

Rogue · June 16, 2005, 17:16

Quote from: "BenF"As for a comparison to the PE turbo'd car, I can't make sense of that power run - if it was 'hopping' on the dyno that would explain the dips and curves, but Thor's dynos bolt directly onto the hubs, don't they? Something looks wrong with the runs - it would feel horrible to drive apart from anything else!

A couple of things about that particular PE equipped car: It has the SMT gearbox, which causes a particular issue for Thor's dynapack. Basically, as you change gear there's no momentum to keep the wheels turning - so they stop. This in turn makes the SMT ECU change you down automatically to first gear! We couldn't work out any way to trick the car into letting us use any gear higher than second, so that's where the power run was done.

It also wasn't strictly a power run at that point. We simply wanted to make sure that the AFRs were within safe parameters as we'd only just refitted the turbo to the car (after it had gone through an SVA) and didn't want to lose the engine to detonation!

Rogue

markiii · June 16, 2005, 17:23

Patrick,

Can you elaborate? As teh SMT just electronically disengages teh clutch I would have thought it would carry momentum just liek a manual?

thanks,

Mark.

Rogue · June 16, 2005, 17:57

The dynapack bolts directly to the hub and supplies an amount of resistance. With the clutch in that resistance is enough to stop the driveshaft dead!

Rogue