Is it worth it switching to FL set up with a 16" rear wheel?

[Ardent]

I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

If this helps.
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/sources/oem-wheel-specs/

September 2002 – End of line All Markets

Pre and Face lift Fronts
Width 15" x 6"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 14.6 lbs (15lbs 6.8kg mine after refurb)
Front Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
185/55/15 81V

Pre Face lift Rears
Width 15" x 6.5"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2 lbs (15.6lbs 7.1kg mine after refurb)
Tyres 205/50/15 85V

Face lift Rears
Width 16" x 7"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2lbs
Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
215/45/16 W86

[Iain]

Great to hear about your 16s being lighter than 15.

Bear in mind this is purely because i weighed them with a very worn PS3 on the 16 against a brand new R888R on the 15 which will have alot of strengthening material in it and not to mention theres more rubber on the semi slick to start with.

Theres about 1.2kg difference if you weigh the wheels without tyres. Again, barely noticable on the road.

[Petrus]

So you are on the new AD08S now? Did they fix the loss of grip then in your opinion?

Only rear and yes the traction is a lót better. So much so that my oversteer set up car now is markedly understeered.

[AJRFulton]

5yrs since I sold the car (480bhp M135i), and they don't make them anymore, but Pilot Super Sports are the best sporty road tyre I have ever used. Coming off the (premium) all season winter tyres onto them was night and day. However that was a 1550kg car putting out nearly 500bhp. Would they feel as amazing on my 150bhp diesel Vectra daily? Would I notice any difference over the Rainsports 5's on it.... Probably not.

Another variable is what suits one car and application may not suit another. A 1500kg 250bhp fwd car might love a set of tyres a 1000kg rwd car doesn't agree with.

[Zens]

Bear in mind this is purely because i weighed them with a very worn PS3 on the 16 against a brand new R888R on the 15 which will have alot of strengthening material in it and not to mention theres more rubber on the semi slick to start with.

Theres about 1.2kg difference if you weigh the wheels without tyres. Again, barely noticable on the road.

1.2kg extra on the 16 versus the 15 rear FL?

[Iain]

1.2kg extra on the 16 versus the 15 rear FL?

Something around there yes. But as ive just proved, tyre choice can still make a difference in weight.

[Zens]

If this helps.
http://www.midshiprunabout.org/sources/oem-wheel-specs/

September 2002 – End of line All Markets

Pre and Face lift Fronts
Width 15" x 6"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 14.6 lbs (15lbs 6.8kg mine after refurb)
Front Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
185/55/15 81V

Pre Face lift Rears
Width 15" x 6.5"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2 lbs (15.6lbs 7.1kg mine after refurb)
Tyres 205/50/15 85V

Face lift Rears
Width 16" x 7"
Offset = et45
PCD = 4 x 100
Weight = 15.2lbs
Tyres (Bridgestone RE040 or Yokohama A043, USE MATCHING SETS)
215/45/16 W86

Thanks. It was brought up the the original 185 Bridgestones were wider than normal 185 tyres. So I'm trying to find the dimensions of that tyre to see how they compare to modern 195 tires.

[Zens]

For wheels, what about Lotus wheels? I seem to have seen some MR2 roadsters with Elise wheels. But looking at the dimensions, although the sizes seem perfect as it also uses 15" front and 16" rear with 15x6.5 and 16x8, the offset seems totally off with something like ET10. But I particularly like the Lotus Victory wheels:



I'm more fond of tyres on the fatter side than the thin rubber strip look. Both to drive and for looks. Anybody could risk a guess on the tyres in the photo above?

I also like the style on these. Anybody could tell what they are?






None of them seems to be larger than 16". But I may be wrong.

[Petrus]

But I may be wrong.

You are but they do not make the car drive any better.

Best compromise for spirited road is OEM and the car was designed on those rims/tyres. If you want to upgrade then buy same in a lighter design.
As observed Yokohama makes the OEM sizes.

Have fun!

[Zens]

You are but they do not make the car drive any better.

Which of the wheels above is larger than 16" in your opinion then?

For size, as I mentioned before, I would like to say as close to OEM as possible.

[Petrus]

Which of the wheels above is larger than 16" in your opinion then?

ah, the above, no not 17"

If you want to stay close to OEM then 15" pfl 15/16 fl
Whatever you go for, OEM wheels are very good quality and relatively light. You will need to spend móney on premium brand to go lighter.

[McMr2]

I like the 15x6 at the front. I'm trying to find the dimensions of the original 185 bridgestone to compare to modern tyres as I'm worried about going 15x7 195 for front.

At the risk of going in circles, I thought I'd post up with my experience today as it is essentially a back to back comparison.

I put the OEM wheels back on over the weekend ahead of covering ~200 miles today of dry UK A&B roads. Generally well surfaced but bumpy in places. This was my first time of running these wheels after 3 years with 16*7 et30 all round.

For reference, my OEM wheels have Toyo T1R tyres (the old type), 225/40/16 on the rear and 195/50/15 on the front.

I'm not going into performance, outright grip, track suitability etc. as this is purely subjective but in terms of 'feel' there is a difference.

With the wider wheels I find turn in is much sharper and gives confidence to really lean on it but, as I mentioned previously, the downside is that it is darty and follows every rut in the road which is tiring on a longer drive. There may be several factors at play - wider tyre, lower offset so the track is essentially wider, lower profile tyres, who knows...

But with the OEM wheels the car just feels more polished. Turn in is more gradual and it feels like it would be more inclined to understeer if really (really) pushed.

Your query was more about wheels but the conversation has naturally drifted to include tyres too. On this note, I recall one of the reasons I stopped using thes wheels was that I really didn't like the grip (or lack of) of the Toyos in the wet.   It maybe the new version is better in this regard.

[Ardent]

Thanks. It was brought up the the original 185 Bridgestones were wider than normal 185 tyres. So I'm trying to find the dimensions of that tyre to see how they compare to modern 195 tires.

I have never come across that before. Are you able to reference the source? Is the source accurate?

For clarity, I am not doubting you have read it, but I'm struggling with the idea a 185 tyre is not a 185 tyre.

[Zens]

ah, the above, no not 17"

If you want to stay close to OEM then 15" pfl 15/16 fl
Whatever you go for, OEM wheels are very good quality and relatively light. You will need to spend móney on premium brand to go lighter.

Yep. The trouble is finding suitable 15/16. I did find some 15x6 or 15x6.5 but they are heavy wheels. From the lightweight wheels the best one can do seems to be 15x7 and 16x7/7.5/8.

And it's now a little bit more difficult as I just found out I can't legally drive Advanti S1s here as they get no type approval. They were my favorite style among the lightweight wheels. I will look into some of the others, such as the OZ Ultraleggera.

[Zens]

I have never come across that before. Are you able to reference the source? Is the source accurate?

For clarity, I am not doubting you have read it, but I'm struggling with the idea a 185 tyre is not a 185 tyre.

Somebody brought it up on this very thread :

The original Bridgestone RE040 185/55 fronts were actually rather wide for the size (over 6" tread width) and many 185/55 today are narrower, so many people are going to the 195/50-15 front, which can also use a wider wheel.

I wanted to look deeper into this. Now it might not be the tyre which is wider itself, as he mentions the thread. But I wanted to see if I could find more data, like exact dimensions for tyre and thread, as well as weight and so on. 

[Petrus]

Sadly the Volk Racing CE28 is very costly so the best vfm is Enkei RPF1 in 7J and use 195/50 up front. This will as a bonus be just that wee bit less oversteered.

The specified width can vary a bit due to de design of the thread band of the karkass and the design of the profile. Just a few mm. more square edge on either side is times two thus measuring easily almost a 195 instead of 185.

To my no small delight I found that the AD08RS has just about not increased in price over the AD08R 5 years ago whereas the whole market has gone up quite a bit. The AD08RS is imo now quite sharply priced.

Imo lighter wheels are véry much worth it. Even more on real world roads than on track because of the way worse surfaces. Remember that they are not only unsprung weight but also rotating.
If say 1,5 kg does not seem much, set it agains the total weight of the wheel and reallise it is worth several times that. Times 4    The lighter the better contact; so an only 5% lighter wheel makes it 5% easier on the suspension to maintain  same/bettercontact which imo is not negligable. You wíll notice that when emergency braking for a kamikaze cyclist of kid chasing a ball.

Tyres and the wheels are the begin and end all of anything you do with the car: They are the contact with the road. No, OBVIOUSLY (for the reading impaired) it is not he ONLY thing important but heavier wheels and less optimal tyres mean less contact/traction; period. Do not look at pennies. That would be pounds foolish.
I at times still regret not having forked out for CE28s  because I dó feel the wheel weight difference.

[Beachbum957]

Somebody brought it up on this very thread :

I wanted to look deeper into this. Now it might not be the tyre which is wider itself, as he mentions the thread. But I wanted to see if I could find more data, like exact dimensions for tyre and thread, as well as weight and so on. 

Typically, the only specs published are basic dimensions such as section width, aspect ratio, rim size, overall diameter, and maybe thread depth.

The problem is that most tire companies don't publish any other specs like tread width or even weight. So there can be significant differences between brands and tire models. For example, we run a 195/45-16 front tire, and thread width between different performance tires vary by more than 1/2", and weight by 2 lb.  Thread profiles vary from a very flat tread with squared edges (like the RE040), to a much more rounded profile.

There are obviously many other factors, such as compound, construction, tread profile, etc that impact tire performance.  So one 185/55 may perform very differently from another.

[Dev]

Yep. The trouble is finding suitable 15/16. I did find some 15x6 or 15x6.5 but they are heavy wheels. From the lightweight wheels the best one can do seems to be 15x7 and 16x7/7.5/8.

And it's now a little bit more difficult as I just found out I can't legally drive Advanti S1s here as they get no type approval. They were my favorite style among the lightweight wheels. I will look into some of the others, such as the OZ Ultraleggera.

 I understand your hesitation with OZ Ultraleggrea as they dont look that great in 15s all around.
However if they are staggered they look phenomenal in the way it matches the cars esthetic to almost like a OEM factory option. Another big selling point is they are a top tier wheel manufacture but selling at a reasonable price which is important because budgeted wheels are worse then OEM quality and are known to come out of balance if you hit some rough patches of roads over time and the finish will not last. Since the Ultraleggera have been around a very long time you can find replacements if the wheel becomes damaged which is cheaper than having them fixed. Some of the more exotic wheels that are very light weight have their own issues on bad roads and replacements are non existent. 

I have them in a 16/17 set up and they are lighter than the FL OEM wheels and if you combined that with tires they come out clearly ahead and close to par with PFL. I also have a lot more tire brand choices with these sizes that I don't have with 15s so it makes up for whatever shortcomings there are with running larger wheel sizes as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 
 Also keep in mind that when you see a good looking wheel it might not translate well with the esthetic of the car so the only way to know is to find pictures of design you like on other owners cars that way you will not regret a wheel choice.

[Petrus]

as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 

AD08RS are and I rate them as really good stuff.

[Zens]

I understand your hesitation with OZ Ultraleggrea as they dont look that great in 15s all around.
However if they are staggered they look phenomenal in the way it matches the cars esthetic to almost like a OEM factory option. Another big selling point is they are a top tier wheel manufacture but selling at a reasonable price which is important because budgeted wheels are worse then OEM quality and are known to come out of balance if you hit some rough patches of roads over time and the finish will not last. Since the Ultraleggera have been around a very long time you can find replacements if the wheel becomes damaged which is cheaper than having them fixed. Some of the more exotic wheels that are very light weight have their own issues on bad roads and replacements are non existent. 

I have them in a 16/17 set up and they are lighter than the FL OEM wheels and if you combined that with tires they come out clearly ahead and close to par with PFL. I also have a lot more tire brand choices with these sizes that I don't have with 15s so it makes up for whatever shortcomings there are with running larger wheel sizes as the really good stuff is no longer available in 15s.
 
 Also keep in mind that when you see a good looking wheel it might not translate well with the esthetic of the car so the only way to know is to find pictures of design you like on other owners cars that way you will not regret a wheel choice.

So far it seems the OZ Ultraleggeras are the only high end or lightweight wheels I can buy here with type approval. Or Sparco, which I was told it's also good as it's owned and made by OZ. But they are on the heavier side, being a couple hundred grams heavier than the FL wheels. They are definitely much cheaper than the Ultraleggeras. So I'm not sure that is only because of the weight or also lower quality.

I haven't checked Enkei yet. But by the looks of things, I gather the chances of any non European wheels with type approval is slim around here. So I guess any JDM type wheel is probably out.

As for styling, honestly none of the lightweight wheels I have seen really make me fall in love. The Advanti S1 looks nice in wider specs, but nothing really special in 15x7 or 16x7. The Ultraleggera, Enkei, Ce28 are nothing special either,from a styling point of view. This is in my opinion of course.
So I will go with the wheel which I can get type approval with, are lighter than OEM FL and close to the correct size. It seems I won't be able to choose my favorite style.

My motivation for upgrading my wheels is I want to move away from the silver wheels, plus want to try 16" at the rear and try lighter wheels. Combine this with the fact FL wheels are hard to come by here, even if I wanted to go through the trouble of getting some, restoring and painting them a different colour. So it makes sense to just buy aftermarket, so I can have non silver with 16" at the rear, while going lighter weight as well.

The Ultraleggeras look good for the weight as they would be about 5kg lighter all around than the OEM FL wheels. Colour wise they have some options. But not all available in 15" and 16". But at least some non silver options. So far the Ultraleggeras are looking like the most probable. I can afford them, they come with type approval, have similar enough sizes to OEM and are lighter than OEM.

Then maybe Ultraleggeras+ PS3 tyres or Ultraleggeras + AD08RS tyres. Might look into the suggested Hankook as well. But I think this is where the options end. 

Interesting to know you have Ultraleggeras on your car though. Any photos? Are they robust? Many lightweight wheels only have to see a pothole to get bent out of shape. How are the Ultraleggeras? How long have you had them? Needed any replacements or repairs?

[Zens]

Sadly the Volk Racing CE28 is very costly so the best vfm is Enkei RPF1 in 7J and use 195/50 up front. This will as a bonus be just that wee bit less oversteered.

The specified width can vary a bit due to de design of the thread band of the karkass and the design of the profile. Just a few mm. more square edge on either side is times two thus measuring easily almost a 195 instead of 185.

To my no small delight I found that the AD08RS has just about not increased in price over the AD08R 5 years ago whereas the whole market has gone up quite a bit. The AD08RS is imo now quite sharply priced.

Imo lighter wheels are véry much worth it. Even more on real world roads than on track because of the way worse surfaces. Remember that they are not only unsprung weight but also rotating.
If say 1,5 kg does not seem much, set it agains the total weight of the wheel and reallise it is worth several times that. Times 4    The lighter the better contact; so an only 5% lighter wheel makes it 5% easier on the suspension to maintain  same/bettercontact which imo is not negligable. You wíll notice that when emergency braking for a kamikaze cyclist of kid chasing a ball.

Tyres and the wheels are the begin and end all of anything you do with the car: They are the contact with the road. No, OBVIOUSLY (for the reading impaired) it is not he ONLY thing important but heavier wheels and less optimal tyres mean less contact/traction; period. Do not look at pennies. That would be pounds foolish.
I at times still regret not having forked out for CE28s  because I dó feel the wheel weight difference.

I haven't look at Ce28s. But I suspect no chance of getting them with type approval here. Ultraleggeras are looking promising though.

[Petrus]

I haven't look at Ce28s. But I suspect no chance of getting them with type approval here. Ultraleggeras are looking promising though.

Don´t live there. You should be the closest to that sort of info no?!
Volk Racing are a product of RAY´s Engineering which is quite a renowned company. Thier forged wheels are most likely thé best made you can buy.

Enkei RPF1 should not be a problem surely. Those are proper classics in their own right even and totally thé right rim for a Japanese roadster.

An MR2 for sale over here on Volk CE28 https://www.milanuncios.com/toyota-de-segunda-mano/toyota-mr2-480787726.htm

[Dev]

So far it seems the OZ Ultraleggeras are the only high end or lightweight wheels I can buy here with type approval. Or Sparco, which I was told it's also good as it's owned and made by OZ. But they are on the heavier side, being a couple hundred grams heavier than the FL wheels. They are definitely much cheaper than the Ultraleggeras. So I'm not sure that is only because of the weight or also lower quality.

I haven't checked Enkei yet. But by the looks of things, I gather the chances of any non European wheels with type approval is slim around here. So I guess any JDM type wheel is probably out.

As for styling, honestly none of the lightweight wheels I have seen really make me fall in love. The Advanti S1 looks nice in wider specs, but nothing really special in 15x7 or 16x7. The Ultraleggera, Enkei, Ce28 are nothing special either,from a styling point of view. This is in my opinion of course.
So I will go with the wheel which I can get type approval with, are lighter than OEM FL and close to the correct size. It seems I won't be able to choose my favorite style.

My motivation for upgrading my wheels is I want to move away from the silver wheels, plus want to try 16" at the rear and try lighter wheels. Combine this with the fact FL wheels are hard to come by here, even if I wanted to go through the trouble of getting some, restoring and painting them a different colour. So it makes sense to just buy aftermarket, so I can have non silver with 16" at the rear, while going lighter weight as well.

The Ultraleggeras look good for the weight as they would be about 5kg lighter all around than the OEM FL wheels. Colour wise they have some options. But not all available in 15" and 16". But at least some non silver options. So far the Ultraleggeras are looking like the most probable. I can afford them, they come with type approval, have similar enough sizes to OEM and are lighter than OEM.

Then maybe Ultraleggeras+ PS3 tyres or Ultraleggeras + AD08RS tyres. Might look into the suggested Hankook as well. But I think this is where the options end. 

Interesting to know you have Ultraleggeras on your car though. Any photos? Are they robust? Many lightweight wheels only have to see a pothole to get bent out of shape. How are the Ultraleggeras? How long have you had them? Needed any replacements or repairs?

This is going to be a long post but I am happy to provide as I know what it is like making a wheel decision because it's hard to take back without a major financial loss.
My dream wheels were the SSR Competition Type C but they are discontinued. I felt those had a look that really matched the car with smaller wheels. The Ultraleggers look best with larger wheels so the spokes are longer.

I know that Sparco has tied up with OZ to make their wheels but yes they are of a lower quality but still good quality however it comes at a cost of adding more weight since they dont use the same manufacturing process to fit in a budget category. The finish might not be as good but at its at price point to represent value better than a lot of other cheap wheel brands that have questionable quality. I find it kind of strange since I think OZ is already good value for a top tier brand.

Some of the Japanese wheels might be good enough to be TUV rated but since they are sold in limited numbers they don't submit them for costly certification. However a wheel that has passed certification is going to be as good as OEM wheel quality which is what you want.

I have had my Ultraleggeras for over 15 years.  They have held up great and I have hit some bad bumps with them which I thought I might have damaged the wheel but they were resilient. When I get them balanced with new tires I keep record of how much weight they need to balance them out and they are true as the day I bought them. The finish has held up great but keep in mind that my car is garaged kept.

Wheels are a personal choice and no amount of convincing will help with that so it's important to get what you feel comfortable with. I built my car to impress other people and the of wheels are a big part of selling the look so it gets lots of compliments for me to enjoy.

[Zens]

Don´t live there. You should be the closest to that sort of info no?!
Volk Racing are a product of RAY´s Engineering which is quite a renowned company. Thier forged wheels are most likely thé best made you can buy.

Enkei RPF1 should not be a problem surely. Those are proper classics in their own right even and totally thé right rim for a Japanese roadster.

An MR2 for sale over here on Volk CE28 https://www.milanuncios.com/toyota-de-segunda-mano/toyota-mr2-480787726.htm

Certainly. I just don't have any official word yet, as I do about the Advanti S1s. I know those are not certified here. Japan Racing don't seem either. At least not for the MR2.

But since I have not been able to find a single local supplier that offers Enkei or Volk Racing with a type certificate, I think this probably means they are not certified either. As Dev mentions, certification is a costly process and Japanese cars are not a big thing around these parts. So it makes sense Advanti, Enkei etc may not be interested in paying the costs for certification just to sell a few wheels. With OZ, since it's European and very well known and regarded all over Europe, it's natural that they would have interest in getting their wheels type approved.

But about Volk Racing, I'm not even sorry. I truly dislike the Ce28 design. Based on how much they cost and my dislike for the style, I would rather go for the OZs. I just dislike wheels that are pushed out. I like wheels that are pushed in, like concave or deep dished.

[Zens]

This is going to be a long post but I am happy to provide as I know what it is like making a wheel decision because it's hard to take back without a major financial loss.
My dream wheels were the SSR Competition Type C but they are discontinued. I felt those had a look that really matched the car with smaller wheels. The Ultraleggers look best with larger wheels so the spokes are longer.

I know that Sparco has tied up with OZ to make their wheels but yes they are of a lower quality but still good quality however it comes at a cost of adding more weight since they dont use the same manufacturing process to fit in a budget category. The finish might not be as good but at its at price point to represent value better than a lot of other cheap wheel brands that have questionable quality. I find it kind of strange since I think OZ is already good value for a top tier brand.

Some of the Japanese wheels might be good enough to be TUV rated but since they are sold in limited numbers they don't submit them for costly certification. However a wheel that has passed certification is going to be as good as OEM wheel quality which is what you want.

I have had my Ultraleggeras for over 15 years.  They have held up great and I have hit some bad bumps with them which I thought I might have damaged the wheel but they were resilient. When I get them balanced with new tires I keep record of how much weight they need to balance them out and they are true as the day I bought them. The finish has held up great but keep in mind that my car is garaged kept.

Wheels are a personal choice and no amount of convincing will help with that so it's important to get what you feel comfortable with. I built my car to impress other people and the of wheels are a big part of selling the look so it gets lots of compliments for me to enjoy.

Long post is fine and is appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time. I need all info I can get.

Your experience and feedback with the Ultraleggeras sound very encouraging. My car is garaged as well. So I can probably expect similar durability for the finish.

Indeed wheels are very personal. I for example love concave wheels, followed by deep dish, followed by flat, and really don't like wheels that push out, I guess we could call them convex. Makes the wheel look smaller. In a actual small wheel such as 15" or 16" it doesn't help. But for some reason many 15" or 16" 4x100 seem to be convex. Don't know why that is.

The Ultraleggeras fall under flat. But they look good on your car. Although you have 1 size larger than what I would get. Would you have a side shot of your car?