Is the 2ZZ a bad (track use) engine?

[AJRFulton]

Is the 2ZZ a problem engine for oiling issues to the crank shaft?

I have now spun 3 bearings in about 150 track miles.

I also have seen first hand another 2x 2ZZ engines that have spun bearings on track. Between myself and Andy J-Spec we can account for 8-9 instances of it.

My failures.

Engine #1 – Failure Croft – Spun #1 rod bearing
Bottom end: OEM block, never rebuilt. Approx 80k miles.
Top end: Stage 3 cams, uprated springs
Bearings: OEM
Oil pump: OEM
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Fuchs Titan Race Oil 5w30
Oil cooler: None
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Warning Devices: None

Engine #2 – Failure at Croft – Spun #1 rod bearing
Bottom end: Self rebuild. Reused block with 90k miles, Mahle Pistons, CP Carillo Rods. Crank reground +0.025mm. engine ran in on Dyno.
Top end: Stage 3 cams, uprated springs, MWR Valves, Titanium retainers
Bearings: ACL Racing +0.025mm
Oil pump: MWR uprated
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Miller's Oil 5W40 NT+
Oil Cooler: 13 Row Motamec.
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Electronic Accusump installed (set to engage at 25PSI)
Warning Devices: Accusump discharge warning (illuminates if accusump discharges). Oil temp gauge.

Engine #3 – Failure at Knockhill (to be confirmed but sounds like a rod bearing)
Bottom end: Professional Rebuild. Unused block sourced via MWR. New OEM Rods and Pistons. Crank reground +0.025mm. Crank and Flywheel balanced. Engine ran in on Dyno.
Top end: OEM Cams. uprated springs, MWR Valves, Titanium retainers
Bearings: ACL Racing +0.025mm
Oil pump: MWR uprated
Sump: Elise Parts
Oil Type: Miller's Oil 5W40 NT+
Oil Cooler: 13 Row Motamec.
Oil Gauge: Race Tech Capillary
Electronic Accusump installed (set to engage at 25PSI)
Warning Devices: Accusump discharge warning (illuminates if accusump discharges). Oil temp gauge. Electronic Oil Pressure Warning Light (40 PSI).

(I can't properly hear as I had headphones in and pit comms, drove this longer than I should have).


I used a MWR dip stick kit on all 3 applications. With the sump off, the bottom of the dip stick is clearly showing oil level marks are above the uplift pipe.

Oil level is checked after every session. Accusump also pre-oils engine before start up.

On failure 2 and 3 (filmed in 4k), the gauge never appears to drop, nor warning lights ever come on. I'm confident there was no drop in pressure shown. Failure 1 was filmed in 720p and was never able to determine.

Oil temperature is typically about 130°c on track. Oil pressures are typically 60-80PSI cold idle, dropping to 20PSI warm idle. 40-80PSI on track has been the range warm and at at revs across all 3 engines.

So my questions? What is causing this? Does the 2ZZ have a particular penchant for spinning bearings? #1 main and #1 rod seem to be where these happen most often. You don't see too many 2ZZs at track, but they do seem to have a high failure rate.

Bad luck?
Bad driving?
Bad oil?
Some sort of set up issue?
Is the 2ZZ just a bad track engine?

[JB21]

In my experience with heavy track work the 2ZZ-GE is a very robust engine. Yes, I've had 2 bottom end failures but these were both man made. First one due it an incorrectly spaced dipstick, the second my fault as I money shifted 5th to 2nd at 100mph.

The engine I money shifted was on 155k miles and was in a right state internally given it was ran on non-synthetic all its life, it was varnished to hell but it still ran fine and took thousands of miles of track abuse. Even after the money shift the engine still ran and got me 5 miles off track, as did the first engine with low oil.

For me from the outside looking in your issues look like they are caused by set-up, there's no way your luck can be that bad. Your driving is fine, more mechanically sympathetic then I am for sure.

If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use an standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.

[Petrus]

I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.

Factor in well used engines and it becomes even more impressive!

[AJRFulton]

In my experience with heavy track work the 2ZZ-GE is a very robust engine. Yes, I've had 2 bottom end failures but these were both man made. First one due it an incorrectly spaced dipstick, the second my fault as I money shifted 5th to 2nd at 100mph.

The engine I money shifted was on 155k miles and was in a right state internally given it was ran on non-synthetic all its life, it was varnished to hell but it still ran fine and took thousands of miles of track abuse. Even after the money shift the engine still ran and got me 5 miles off track, as did the first engine with low oil.

For me from the outside looking in your issues look like they are caused by set-up, there's no way your luck can be that bad. Your driving is fine, more mechanically sympathetic then I am for sure.

If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use an standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.

Those are just the engines with spun bearings tbf.

I've also lost a completely OEM engine to a dropped valve and an engine to a failed injector (that I refused to retire in torrential rain as I was running well, even on 3...... And scored the cylinder very badly).

I'm still pondering what to do. Even a high mile 2ZZ is selling for silly money just now. I've not seen anything under £1500 and realistically near me for a long long time.

I've had 5 engines and did about 500 track miles in total.

[Alex Knight]

If you are willing to to give the 2ZZ one more shot I would find a used under 100k mile engine and leave it full OE spec apart from the EP sump and oil temp gauge. Leave all the cams, accusump , coolers of it. I wouldn't even use a standalone ECU, just use a UKDM ECU and see how you get on. If it does go tits up again, then at least you've only spent hundreds instead of thousands, but I'd bet you would be absolutely fine in OE spec. I've done near 40 track days and near 10k track miles in OE form, just EP sump and oil temp gauge.

I've advocated this setup to @AJRFulton a couple of times now.
In my opinion, this is the way to go.

The 2ZZ is already nearing its full performance capability from the factory IMHO. Chasing a few BHP by adding cams, more ignition advance and lower AFRs is a false economy.

My experience is this:

2ZZ engine now running for over 10 years. Countless trackdays.
Oil changed religiously every 3K miles or less with Gulf Competition 15w-50 Racing Ester Fully Synthetic Engine Oil. OEM oil filters. EP sump and MWR dipstick tube (with 1ZZ dipstick).

My hunch is that your oil is too thin (again, possibly chasing BHP?).

I've had loads of people tell me that I'm running too thick an oil, and that I'm losing power. I don't care. I'd rather sacrifice 2BHP and not have to keep replacing engines.

That's my 2p.

[Gaz2405]

I did think Alex and JB21 would have some good input on this.

I know your engines have been run in on a Dyno, but so they get any road miles before hand?

Obviously theres a few trains of thought for engine running in, slow and steady, Dyno route or just beat on it straight away.

How do the Elise boys get on with them?

I'm with the guys on stretching the NA tuning of a 2zz, I do think they are at their limit NA wise.

I'm not into oil etc like the others are, I think JB21 works in the industry? But I generally go for the tried and tested route.

I do feel your pain though, if I was you I'd chuck in a standard 2zz with oil pan etc to give it one last go.

[JB21]

I've advocated this setup to @AJRFulton a couple of times now.
In my opinion, this is the way to go.

The 2ZZ is already nearing its full performance capability from the factory IMHO. Chasing a few BHP by adding cams, more ignition advance and lower AFRs is a false economy.

My experience is this:

2ZZ engine now running for over 10 years. Countless trackdays.
Oil changed religiously every 3K miles or less with Gulf Competition 15w-50 Racing Ester Fully Synthetic Engine Oil. OEM oil filters. EP sump and MWR dipstick tube (with 1ZZ dipstick).

My hunch is that your oil is too thin (again, possibly chasing BHP?).

I've had loads of people tell me that I'm running too thick an oil, and that I'm losing power. I don't care. I'd rather sacrifice 2BHP and not have to keep replacing engines.

That's my 2p.

I'll be running the Apexi PFC once I get around to it, not for power gains mind but to optimize AFR's as mine was running very rich when it was dyno'd last year. Optimizing AFR's with naturally gain a few HP which is just a bonus.

As for the thick vs standard grade oil, there's no real proof that thicker oil is safer. My take is that if the engine is tight and within tolerances then 5W 40 perfectly fine, if an older bad condition/out of tolerance engine like my 155k mile unit then yes a 15w 50 would be a sensible option. Lotus recommend 5w 40 for track use with the 2ZZ, that's good enough for me.

[Alex Knight]

Thicker oils are better at maintaining both oil pressure and film strength at higher loads and temperatures.

Each to their own, but I would always advocate running the thickest oil you can reasonably use (for track work, not for a 100% roadgoing car).

The loss of BHP and slightly increased engine wear on a cold start is more than made up for by peace of mind and reliability for me.

[AJRFulton]

I am going with Rogues recommendation of Miller's CFS NT+ 5W40. Lotus recommends this grade for track use too. I think the consensus is this is one of the very best oils of that grade you can easily buy.

Car can only be ran in on a Dyno as it isn't road legal.

As for BHP (or torque rather, I'm not fussed about top end power - I'm limited in my series by peak power to weight ratio) this is the conundrum.

Everyone else in my class is doing things to their engine. I know that the mid range torque gain from cams is worth approx 1.5s around Knockhill - and the spread of the field in my class is 2-3 seconds. It's giving up a lot.

[Alex Knight]

I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.

To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.

[AJRFulton]

I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.

To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.

I think this maybe how it goes.

I am nervous about what the extra 75kg does though.

[Dev]

I guess the key differentiator here is that you are looking for power (due to the nature of use of your car) and the vast majority of people on here are looking for reliability.

To that end, if I were you, I'd fit a K20 and be done with it.

 The K20 seems to take internal mods reliably. From what I have see elsewhere if you mess with both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ they have a history of prematurely failing even on the street. Spun bearings and dropped valves. 
 

[KRAMSNEHPETS]

Did three engines. 1 oil filter came undone, other 2 dropped valves. All were 150,000 mile engines. Took the plunge and had a good running engine rebuilt . Since then  no issues, 199 bhp, different cams , accusump, elise parts sump. With me i put it down to old poorly maintained engines

[Alex Knight]

I think this maybe how it goes.

I am nervous about what the extra 75kg does though.

Que?

It's only a few KGs more:

Engine weights

[moca2cv]

Have you considered a built 1ZZ? Lower rpms, but you can end up with not too much less power without mega amounts of work. Plus they're dirt cheap.

[AJRFulton]

Que?

It's only a few KGs more:

Engine weights

I did make a typo - 45kg

My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.

It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving it. I'm very keen to keep this trait.

The weight v balance concern is the only thing that puts me off a K20 - everything else seems better.

Do we know of any track regulars who've experienced both the 2ZZ and the K20 on track? I'd be keen to speak to them to ask questions. I do know a lotus owner who made the change and said it did effect the cars balance a bit.

[JB21]

I did make a typo - 45kg

My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.

It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving, the car is great at keeping forward momentum.

The weight v balance concern is the only thing that puts me off a K20 - everything else seems better.

Do we know of any track regulars who've experienced both the 2ZZ and the K20 on track? I'd be keen to speak to them to ask questions. I do know a lotus owner who made the change and said it did effect the cars balance a bit.

It will affect the dynamics of the car no doubt. Techno spirit MRS owner Spirits Taro was asked about the K20 in a ZZW30 chassis and say exactly this, to much added weight affecting the balance at the limit. K20 would be fine for the average track dayer but for you and I who drive on the limit it would need a lot of adjustment to our driving style. This is why I chuckle at the V6 guys who say the heavier engine and box doesn't affect dynamics, it does massively. The ZZW30 chassis was not designed for an additional 50-100kg extra weight at the rear.

I've also noticed on the K20 swaps the the engine seems to be off center towards the offside, this again will affect the balance of the car.

[Alex Knight]

I did make a typo - 45kg

My engine and box weighs 140kg dry. The weights I find for a k20 engine and box is 185kg dry.

It's a chunk of extra weight over the rear axel. I'd be concerned about the pendulum effect of an extra 45kg when rotating the car on the limit. The MR2 is very forgiving, but when the rear decides to go - it goes suddenly and without warning - and an extra 45kg out back isn't going to help that. One of the things I love about the way I've got my car handling is the way it can balance rear end rotation with with front end understeer. It's great at keeping momentum if I'm not reverting to old habits and over driving it. I'm very keen to keep this trait.

Not wanting to get into a massive debate about chassis balance, but I've always found my car to oversteer progressively and predictably.

Here's a couple of laps in my car at Silverstone GP in the sopping wet on some questionable (in the wet at least Bridgestone RE002 tyres).

Forgive the massively over exposed video, but you can hopefully see that I had bags of time to recognise (and react to) the admittedly quite frequent oversteer moments, a trait that a wet track magnifies:

[AJRFulton]

The MR2 is great fun on wet track days, most fun I've had in the cars been on damp tracks without a laptimer in sight, but in competition I find it can be a handful if trying to get a good lap time in the damp, particularly up against good FWD machinery with decent drivers.


My set up in the dry is usually front end limited for grip. In the wet the car is always rear end limited.

I can induce predictable oversteer in the wet or dry, it's fine to live with it. It's the unpredictable stuff, in the dry, at 100mph that is the problem. The MR2 quickly goes from planted to spinning backwards - as do all MR cars.

For example, last weekend, during the warm up session, trying to find the grip limit - I had a big spin at Knockhill Reverse over the top of Duffus at about 95mph going by the GPS. Car had felt planted, doing its usual gentle understeer on power, washing out to the exit. Until something unsettled the car and it went from planted understeer to oversteer and a 360° pirouette and saying prayers.

[Mark A]

You're getting fuel wash are you? Did you check the oil after the events, seems something in your setup must be contributing to the early demise.

As suggested above I'd find a used 2ZZ preferably in a car so you can drive it about a bit, pull the engine and send it with your big wing sump.

A cheaper alternative to Honda K20 might be a Zurawski VAG BAM or the Toyota 2AR.

I don't know the regs for your race series but assuming if you are running a 2ZZ it is open mods.

Sorry I'm a bit too far away to offer material help

[1979scotte]

This is why I chuckle at the V6 guys who say the heavier engine and box doesn't affect dynamics, it does massively. The ZZW30 chassis was not designed for an additional 50-100kg extra weight at the rear.

Can only say it as I see it.
I've owned a v6 mr2 and I've been in others. As a road car it was a fabulous thing. Perhaps it makes for a poor track or motorsport proposition on this I'd have no idea as I've never partaken.
The extra weight is within the wheelbase and never bothered me.

On the 2zz Alex seems to be one of the few who haven't experienced any problems.

[JB21]

Can only say it as I see it.
I've owned a v6 mr2 and I've been in others. As a road car it was a fabulous thing. Perhaps it makes for a poor track or motorsport proposition on this I'd have no idea as I've never partaken.
The extra weight is within the wheelbase and never bothered me.

On the 2zz Alex seems to be one of the few who haven't experienced any problems.

I can imagine a V6 would be great on the road where your not pushing limits, but on track pushing 10 tenths I would imagine it would be a real handful. I'm sure Jayemm done a track test of a V6 and wasn't impressed at all. Saying that I bet you could tune the chassis to accommodate a V6 but it would needs some expert level of tunning with dampers, springs, roll bars etc and lots of aero.

On the 2zz to only issues I've had were all man made to which any engine would have suffered bottom end damage.

[AJRFulton]

I've no technical knowledge here, but how long does an engine need to experience oil starvation or pressure drop to actually spin or damage a bearing?

Are we talking <1 second? several seconds? Etc?

Both my warning systems (gauge and warning light) take about 1-2 seconds to respond to a sustained pressure drop (i.e pushing engine kill switch). Obviously that is a total pressure loss as oil pump has stopped - I don't think the system would notice if I had a pressure drop for 2-3 secs but some oil was still getting through.

Is there any technical reason why #1 rod and #1 main seem to nearly always be the bearings that fail - not just with me, but the wider community I'm aware of having the issue.

At Croft, I have seen first hand 4x 2ZZ engines that spun bearings at almost the exact same place (Hawthorn into Tower - both high G right handers). All #1 rod bearings too.

As a side note, I agree with JB21 about you can probably tune the chassis around things. The 2ZZ is a pretty lightweight engine + box, and doesn't change the car much from what it was designed with the 1ZZ. However the strength of the car is it's chassis balance - one of, if not the , best balanced cars you can get track ready for its price point. You're getting into lotus money before you get things obviously better (and available).

[JB21]

I've no technical knowledge here, but how long does an engine need to experience oil starvation or pressure drop to actually spin or damage a bearing?

Are we talking <1 second? several seconds? Etc?

At 8000rpm <1s is all it takes. This is why I dont bother with a oil pressue gauge as by the time you realise its already to late.

[Call the midlife!]

Potentially would the number 1 bearing be under more load than the other 3 due to the crank pulley being nearest to it?
I know it "shouldn't" make any difference but it's the biggest variance from the rest.