Is the 2ZZ a bad (track use) engine?

[AJRFulton]

At 8000rpm <1s is all it takes. This is why I dont bother with a oil pressue gauge as by the time you realise its already to late.

This is where I think I've went wrong. At Knockhill Reverse the section Chicane/Butchers does hit the limiter in 3rd, but the car is twice on 2 wheels, once fairly significantly, with kerbs - the oil will slosh a lot. You can't upshift due to continuous cornering load, any attempt to go to 4th with result in a high speed spin.

Thing is, how do you prevent this?

I drained the oil last night and got 7 litres out. With residual, that is correct amount with accusump. There is a sparkle in the oil. The dipstick with Accusump charge is showing about 1mm above full, which corresponds to the very top of the sump. With the Accusump discharged it takes it significantly over full.

I'll try get the sump off over weekend to see damage.

[JB21]

This is where I think I've went wrong. At Knockhill Reverse the section Chicane/Butchers does hit the limiter in 3rd, but the car is twice on 2 wheels, once fairly significantly, with kerbs - the oil will slosh a lot. You can't upshift due to continuous cornering load, any attempt to go to 4th with result in a high speed spin.

Thing is, how do you prevent this?

I drained the oil last night and got 7 litres out. With residual, that is correct amount with accusump. There is a sparkle in the oil. The dipstick with Accusump charge is showing about 1mm above full, which corresponds to the very top of the sump. With the Accusump discharged it takes it significantly over full.

I'll try get the sump off over weekend to see damage.

Only real way is to short shift to 4th and or not bounce off the kerbs, both will lose a few tenths but it'll save your engine going forward. Do you not have a magnetic sump plug? Both my blown engines had a lot of bearing material attached to them when removed.

[AJRFulton]

Only real way is to short shift to 4th and or not bounce off the kerbs, both will lose a few tenths but it'll save your engine going forward. Do you not have a magnetic sump plug? Both my blown engines had a lot of bearing material attached to them when removed.

I do have a magnetic sump plug. But nothing significant on it. I have found that with the EP sump though, big debris doesn't tend to go to the drain point, it gets stuck in the baffles.

As for short shifting. I did experiment in the practice sessions but found short shifting on a steep uphill section lost 0.4-0.5s - kinda boils into the frustration with the C6X gear ratios we've spoken about before. I find a lot of sections and corners on tracks too fast for third, too slow for 4th and the 2ZZ has to keep in the power band to be quick. I find myself wanting gear 3.5 a lot.

[JB21]

I do have a magnetic sump plug. But nothing significant on it. I have found that with the EP sump though, big debris doesn't tend to go to the drain point, it gets stuck in the baffles.

As for short shifting. I did experiment in the practice sessions but found short shifting on a steep uphill section lost 0.4-0.5s - kinda boils into the frustration with the C6X gear ratios we've spoken about before. I find a lot of sections and corners on tracks too fast for third, too slow for 4th and the 2ZZ has to keep in the power band to be quick. I find myself wanting gear 3.5 a lot.

What size rear tyres do you use? If on something like 225/45/15 you could up to a 225/45/16 to increase the FD ratio to increase in gear speeds, I do this in mine as I find the in gear speeds of the C6X on 15" rears not great for the tracks I do. Going from a 225/45/15 to a 225/45/16 would gain you an extra 4mph in 3rg gear which could mean all the difference.

[AJRFulton]

I'm 225/45/16's on the rear 225/50/15 on the front

[JB21]

I'm 225/45/16's on the rear 225/50/15 on the front

Ahh OK, you could go to a 17" rear, this is why I have bought the Lotus wheels to go 225/45/17 but this adds weight or go down to a 225/45/15 so you have better acceleration in 4th.

[Alex Knight]

Or you could go the opposite way, save unsprung mass, and fit a shorter final drive.

[thetyrant]

My take on it is that while i dont think the 2zz is particularly great engine it should if everything is in good health easy handle what your asking from it and  i think some other factors have caused your failures, finding out what exactly may not be easy!

 First thing i would say i think the 130deg oil temp is a touch high especially if that is oil in sump temp?  while modern oils will handle that i will be getting near its limits and thin in my opinion, ive always tried to keep my oil temps 100-110c and if going much more come in to cool down (easy on a trackday of course) but i would look at improving the cooling if getting that on a race car where you cant come in when it gets too hot.

I initially bought my MR2 to do the 2zz swap after being impressed at a sprint event with one that had been converted, after buying the car and doing more research i realised it was a bit of a lottery on used engines and ended up going turbo 1zz which of course had other issues but was a fun journey while it lasted.

Going forward as other have said if you can find a reasonably well looked after used 2zz engine preferably in the car so you can drive it and gauge condition etc thats easiest way as you have everything else already, but if you wanted to increase the reliability a honda motor is a good shout, i did look at doing a b18 into my car rather than a k20 but finding one of those at sensible money is even harder!

[Alex Knight]

I've had my share of VTEC motors (B16A, B16A2, B18C, B18C6, K20A).

They are all good engines. B16 is a bit short of torque, but makes a lovely noise. B18 is strong (stronger than a 2ZZ IMHO) and K20A is a step-and-a-half on from B-Series.

I would place the 2ZZ between the B16 and the B18 interns of power. Kind of like a B17.

The ONE thing that I couldn't tolerate about all those engines was oil consumption/burning.

Even the healthiest VTEC will get through circa 500ml oil on a trackday in my experience.

Not only does it make me paranoid, it also makes you look a bit shit trailing smoke behind you when giving it some poke. Stinks too.

(At least my) 2ZZ doesn't consume any oil between or on trackdays. That a very good sign of a very healthy engine.

[thetyrant]

I was lucky neither of the B18 motor Tegs ( 1 x Si and 1 x Type-R) ive had used much oil but was a long time ago and were quite new then, the DC2 Type-R was epic on track if a little frustrating on road after coming from a Evo prior to it so i wasnt used to dropping 2 cogs everytime i wanted to overtake!lol... on track where always above 6k it was a proper hoot and still the most fun ive had around Knockill in the rain   that motor in a MR2 i think would be awesome, ive not been in many K20 cars but never felt very special to me at least stock, unlike the teg.

[AJRFulton]

My take on it is that while i dont think the 2zz is particularly great engine it should if everything is in good health easy handle what your asking from it and  i think some other factors have caused your failures, finding out what exactly may not be easy!

 First thing i would say i think the 130deg oil temp is a touch high especially if that is oil in sump temp?  while modern oils will handle that i will be getting near its limits and thin in my opinion, ive always tried to keep my oil temps 100-110c and if going much more come in to cool down (easy on a trackday of course) but i would look at improving the cooling if getting that on a race car where you cant come in when it gets too hot.

I initially bought my MR2 to do the 2zz swap after being impressed at a sprint event with one that had been converted, after buying the car and doing more research i realised it was a bit of a lottery on used engines and ended up going turbo 1zz which of course had other issues but was a fun journey while it lasted.

Going forward as other have said if you can find a reasonably well looked after used 2zz engine preferably in the car so you can drive it and gauge condition etc thats easiest way as you have everything else already, but if you wanted to increase the reliability a honda motor is a good shout, i did look at doing a b18 into my car rather than a k20 but finding one of those at sensible money is even harder!

Every 2ZZ I've used (6 of them now) has got up to 130° in competition, track days a little cooler as you're not as 100% on it for 20 minutes.

I now measure temp from oil cooler inlet, I used to measure from sandwich plate, and before that the sump

I'm running a 13 Row cooler and also in this incarnation the OEM water cooler sandwich plate.

I measure oil pressure from the block immediately after the sandwich plates.

Most of my engines have used very little oil.

[Alex Knight]

Every 2ZZ I've used (6 of them now) has got up to 130° in competition

And they've all failed.

[AJRFulton]

And they've all failed.

What more do you do for cooling though?

I've put a cooler kit in, enlarged the ducts, bigger water radiator (water temps never get too bad - 90-95°C is normal - if it's really hot you might see it surpass 100°), bigger oil capacity, etc.

I reckon going through the cooler loses about 5°C

[Alex Knight]

If you can't change the oil, change the oil.

But we've already been here 😉

Have you spoken to 7even Motorsports to see if they have any answers?

[thetyrant]

5 degree drop from oil cooler doesnt sound enough too me you should be able to get it down more than that as its practically doing nothing at moment,   maybe plumbing issue or cooler isnt good enough quality or located in suitable location to get airflow, not easy on a rear engine though i know.

I wonder if there is a restriction in the oil cooler circuit which maybe a factor, did you change the cooler after 2nd engine failed ?   im a firm believer that any engine failure that contaminated the oil it requires a new cooler as you can never clean them out properly, it could well be why engine 3 let go if you didnt replace it.

[AJRFulton]

5 degree drop from oil cooler doesnt sound enough too me you should be able to get it down more than that as its practically doing nothing at moment,   maybe plumbing issue or cooler isnt good enough quality or located in suitable location to get airflow, not easy on a rear engine though i know.

I wonder if there is a restriction in the oil cooler circuit which maybe a factor, did you change the cooler after 2nd engine failed ?   im a firm believer that any engine failure that contaminated the oil it requires a new cooler as you can never clean them out properly, it could well be why engine 3 let go if you didnt replace it.

I bought the kit that plumbs it into the air duct to the right of the alternator - I put bigger scoops on the car to get more air in there too. The bigger scoops have worked in terms of cooling the air in the engine bay - seeing a few degrees lower air temps in there (I used to have an air temp reading - but did away with it).

Plumbed in with AN10 connections and braided pipes. 

The actual oil cooler is Motomec 13 row - I would say it's adequate in terms of quality - although it's not premium. In terms of size it is realistically as big as it can be in that location.

I did inspect the oil cooler on changing, it seemed clean when blown out - then cleaned out with some brake cleaner - no debris or gunk, just golden oil.

[thetyrant]

Hmm ok i would 100% fit a new cooler and go for a better quality item and if you can try squeeze a couple more rows it all helps, if its only dropping 5 degrees its not doing its job so probably not of sufficient quality to my mind,   if the oil was contaminated during a failure then there is a very good chance so was the cooler, you cant clean them out due to small pathways inside and just running oil through it is no real test as its not under pressure, hot and the vibrations like when its running in car, i would not be surprised if this is reason engine 3 failed.

[JB21]

Mine doesn't run too hot really, never seen it get over 130c even on longer stints in the hot months. My reading is taken from the oil filter sandwich plate.

[thetyrant]

Mine doesn't run too hot really, never seen it get over 130c even on longer stints in the hot months. My reading is taken from the oil filter sandwich plate.

Whats the normal sort of temp you see on track out of interest and do you have a cooler i cant remember ?

[JB21]

Whats the normal sort of temp you see on track out of interest and do you have a cooler i cant remember ?

No cooler. Road temps 87-92 when pottering, track temps vary really, say 10-15 minute sessions at Aintree <120, at Oulton <125. Its when you push longer than 10-15 minutes they climb, but never seem to go over 130, but I dont take the piss and dont often stay out for +20 minutes at a time and if I do I'll always do a cool down lap or 2 before going for it again.

Car is also running a massive Mishimoto radiator, which may help temps on track.

[AJRFulton]

I also have a big Mishimoto radiator, with a fabricated sheet aluminium tunnel channelling air. I find for water cooling it's great - never had any water temp issues. Maybe only get higher temps if I've had to stop the car quickly and can't run a cool down lap (i.e pulled in for scrutineering/weigh bridge). If running fast 90^C is normal water temperature.

If I'm racing it's 20 minutes of 100%, temps are always higher. On track days and Superlap - it's usually a couple of hot laps then cool down. Temperatures are less on these, but still 120ish.

I've had that temperature with different oils, cooler/no cooler, accusump/no accusump. The only constant is the thermometer - which admittedly isn't a high quality one. Although testing the sensors in a pot of hot water, both gauges (water and oil) read within +- 5% of each other. The oil gauge always has read a little higher than the water one in this test.

[thetyrant]

How have you got the cooler connected ? presuming a thermostatic sandwich plate?   the fact youve had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working    

[AJRFulton]

How have you got the cooler connected ? presuming a thermostatic sandwich plate?   the fact youve had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working    

connected via a greddy sandwich plate - no thermostat due to the application being track only.

[Alex Knight]

The fact you've had pretty much same temps with or without cooler says it all, its not working    

Absolutely. 5 degree reduction is bugger all. I'd expect significantly more than that.

Would suggest you find out why.

[shnazzle]

connected via a greddy sandwich plate - no thermostat due to the application being track only.

Really stupid question perhaps but, is it completely deleted? Not a chance perhaps that the cooler is stuck in closed state due to not having the thermostat? Or is the whole mechanism removed and it's just an open flow from block to input and output?