Front lower control arms (LCA) bushes

[Bossworld]

Sorry to butt in on another's thread, but I am totally confused over replacement lower control arms!!

A report on my last MOT recorded failed ball joint covers on both lower arms requiring repair.

Reading various posts on the lower arms, I am confused as to whether the ball joint is a replaceable item, or whether it requires a new lower arm complete, and if it does is there a suitable replacement arm yaris/scion/MR2 which economically does the job.

It's a bit like the latest Covid measures, a bit foggy and confusing A definitive answer would be helpful

I think the facts we've established are:

Scion and Yaris are effectively the same car underneath, but there's no definitive answer as to whether the MR2 arm is identical even though it looks it.

There are some horribly cheap arms available on Chinese wholesale sites (talking $3.99 an arm) which are ostensibly the unbranded ones being sold on eBay.  Both StuC and I have had issues that would warrant an MOT fail, after 6k miles.

Many people have fitted various Yaris arms across Facebook.  I've gone for some manufactured in Turkey this time.

It does seem to be the balljoint that goes on the cheap arms, which is the part others have struggled to replace, but Dev advises this may actually be OK in its stock state and to try to recover the stock arms and change the other two bushes.

---

Just for clarity, there are two balljoints hooked onto the knuckle, the TRE one is easily swapped out for a MAPCO one (£9 on eBay and labelled up as MR2 compatible).  I had one of these fail as the metal retaining ring slipped down after 18 months.

[Joesson]

A three tier answer above,  any fogginess is down to not wanting to accept the definitive answer because of its side affect.

[Dev]

I would get a good pair of arms from a junker that has low miles. It can be from a Yaris with intact ball joint boots. I would then change out the bushings. These joints are strong but I have seen it where someone improperly tries to separate the joint the boot can rip. I never encountered or heard of boots that rip on their own due to age but its possible. Or its just best to pay the price on new OE arms.

  I have installed those cheap China arms on a local members car. Its been over two years and I haven't heard a problem with them yet but it might happen who really knows.  One anecdotal failure is enough for me not to use them on a critical part. 

[scm2004red]

Thanks.. I think!

Just to confirm, for my own tired brain, the lower control arm ball joint is an integral part of the arm, and not a separate replaceable item as is often the case? I thought I read somewhere in all of the threads that someone had found some, may be me confused.

TRE's I am not bothered about, they are straightforward replaceable items.

[Dev]

Sorry to butt in on another's thread, but I am totally confused over replacement lower control arms!!

A report on my last MOT recorded failed ball joint covers on both lower arms requiring repair.

Reading various posts on the lower arms, I am confused as to whether the ball joint is a replaceable item, or whether it requires a new lower arm complete, and if it does is there a suitable replacement arm yaris/scion/MR2 which economically does the job.

It's a bit like the latest Covid measures, a bit foggy and confusing A definitive answer would be helpful

Scion and Yaris are effectively the same car underneath, but there's no definitive answer as to whether the MR2 arm is identical even though it looks it.


It does seem to be the balljoint that goes on the cheap arms, which is the part others have struggled to replace, but Dev advises this may actually be OK in its stock state and to try to recover the stock arms and change the other two bushes.

---

Just for clarity, there are two balljoints hooked onto the knuckle, the TRE one is easily swapped out for a MAPCO one (£9 on eBay and labelled up as MR2 compatible).  I had one of these fail as the metal retaining ring slipped down after 18 months.

From what I remember, here in the states the XB and Yaris arms worked for those that wanted to expand their availability of getting replacement arms due to accidents from junkers back in the day before these Chinese arms came about. 
I never heard of anyone having fitment issues or early failure issues with this option. I have seen cross reference part numbers for all three so its possible they are the same part but Im not definitively sure as it could be some other part source lumping them together and it could be an assumption by someone compiling the list and not Toyota.

There were some that wanted to replace the ball joint which wasn't an easy procedure and some had problems with that retaining ring. I would rather have the ball joints on the arms with Toyota tooling as its possible that once they are removed tolerances become an issue for replacement parts. On some cars the ball joints are not replaceable you have to buy the arm as a unit. 

I know of hundreds (lost count) of people around the world that have replaced their bushings with the Superpro with out any issues as I was in contact with the vast majority of them due to selling my tool kit to have them installed. This option has been available since 2007 and I never heard of anyone encountering a failure of any kind with the poly bushings which is remarkable.
  Please don't consider this a shameless plug as Im not trying to sell anything. I no longer sell the tool kit internationally because its cost prohibitive for me to do so.

[scm2004red]

This is all helpful, but to labour a point lower ball joints, allegedly for the MR2, are available separately at my local supplier which seems to indicate these should be separately removable -

https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/lemforder-ball-joint-617820595?type=shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi-natpe07AIVE4jVCh2t7AijEAQYDSABEgJ0fPD_BwE

If this is correct and feasible, it avoids the debate over the correctness and adequacy of aftermarket arms by using a new ball joint in an OE arm?

[Bossworld]

This is all helpful, but to labour a point lower ball joints, allegedly for the MR2, are available separately at my local supplier which seems to indicate these should be separately removable -

https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/lemforder-ball-joint-617820595?type=shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi-natpe07AIVE4jVCh2t7AijEAQYDSABEgJ0fPD_BwE

If this is correct and feasible, it avoids the debate over the correctness and adequacy of aftermarket arms by using a new ball joint in an OE arm?

Have a look through Dev's post above, there's also @ooch 's post at the bottom of page 3 which theorises your exact point but doesn't look like they've been back on to confirm the outcome.

Lemforder (as per your link) came up several times in positive terms on my last frantic Google, but as per the theme of this thread, unfortunately you might need to be the trailblazer.

[Joesson]

As mentioned it n # 99:
In the above posts both our own Forum supplier @TCB and @Dev advocate the use of aftermarket bushes in the OE arms with SuperPro bushes, these being designed to meet the OE specifications.
The Ball Joint would seem to be the item that do not have a particular replacement and a branded serviceable item could perhaps be the object of a "Group Search" .


The Ball joints mentioned by @scm2004red are by a German manufacturing company , suppliers of OE and AM suspension components, in the same group as ZF and so likely good quality.
The important price will be variable as the supplier and their sister co. often offer "sale" prices.
As to the fixing into the OE arms, when I first started working on cars suspension bushes were replaceable brass alloy bushings that required reaming to size and brake shoes required riveting to the carrier. Today, mass production means that many assemblies are made as a unit, this together with higher skilled labour costs mean that such ancient practices are not so much called for.
However, with the SuperPro replacement bushes and a good quality track rod end the questions become-
Are the OE components removable from the OE arm?
Does the OE arm resist corrosion and removal of existing components sufficient for reuse?
Would the time necessary for "professional" replacement, together with the above mentioned parts be cost effective?
Would the prices of the parts be cost effective for diy installation?

EDIT incorrect reference to TRE deleted.

[Dev]

If the joints appear to be in good condition with enough uncontaminated grease in them why not just replace the boot if that can be sourced or pulled from another ball joint. Clean off the grease and add new grease to refresh the joint. 
Sometimes if the failure is first detected the grease doesn't have time to have been contaminated with taking in water and dirt. This also applies to the CV joint where you can replace the boot rather than the whole part as long as the grease did not run dry.  It just makes for a much easier repair. 
The ball joints for most all modern Toyotas vehicles are over built and should outlast the car. Its not like the old days where these parts were serviceable and required frequent inspection.

[Dev]

As mentioned it n # 99:
In the above posts both our own Forum supplier @TCB and @Dev advocate the use of aftermarket bushes in the OE arms with SuperPro bushes, these being designed to meet the OE specifications.
The track rod ends would seem to be the items that do not have a particular replacement and a branded serviceable item could perhaps be the object of a "Group Search" .



However, with the SuperPro replacement bushes and a good quality track rod end the questions become-
Are the OE components removable from the OE arm?
Does the OE arm resist corrosion and removal of existing components sufficient for reuse?

I can answer some of this. The front spool bushing has no casing and its relatively easy to replace with no tolerance issues.  If its frozen as many have experienced from your part of the world  you can drill multiple holes in the rubber and work it out with a screw driver pushing out the rubber fragments. With the big bushing you drill a few holes and then cut out the rest of the rubber using a knife. After that you can cut the casing using a hack saw and then deform the casing and it will pop off. The replacement bushings made by Superpro were designed with good tolerances to fit existing arms with no surprises with any kind of variation. It appeared to be they were designed around replacement of existing old arms. The key to safely removing the arms is a good ball joint separator.

 If you take it to a shop they will want to use a press and the labor costs go up a lot . This is why DIY options can save you a fortune.   

[scm2004red]

Thanks for all the replies. Did contemplate just replacing the rubber boot, there are plenty of varieties available, just thought it made more sense to replace the ball joint if it could be done as I am not sure how long the joint has been exposed to the elements.

Will probably have a look at this in a couple of months to see what can be done, I am all for re using parts if possible, rather than just chucking a part in the bin. It all hangs on how easy it is to get rusty bits apart!

[Joesson]

For clarity and for my own information I have just emailed Paul@TCB asking him for regular / Forum prices for:

Replacement arms,OE / AM
Replacement arms / Yaris / AM if available
SuperPro bushes for installing into existing arms
Good quality Ball joint/ Track rod end for installing into existing arm.

I will post when I have a reply.

[Dev]

Thanks for all the replies. Did contemplate just replacing the rubber boot, there are plenty of varieties available, just thought it made more sense to replace the ball joint if it could be done as I am not sure how long the joint has been exposed to the elements.

Will probably have a look at this in a couple of months to see what can be done, I am all for re using parts if possible, rather than just chucking a part in the bin. It all hangs on how easy it is to get rusty bits apart!

If you squeeze the rubber and have some of the grease come out you will know. If it presents with watery mix  its no good. If you rub the grease between your fingers and it feels very abrasive its no good either.  If  you press on the boot and you see what looks like thick grease coming out you should be ok.
  Once its separated from the car move the joint around and if it feels smooth and dampened you should be fine as long as its not flimsy and falling over or any play.

[Joesson]

Further to my #111 above here is my email to Paul @TCB:

Hello Paul, I'm Joesson on the MR2 Roadster Forum.
You may be aware of the ongoing discussion on our Forum about the replacement/ renovation of the :
Lower front control arm

The general consensus is that the Toyota replacement arms are relatively costly, but I have not seen what this price actually is.
If the replacement arms are indeed costly an alternative is an aftermarket replacement, some members have bought ( low cost) Yaris arms, that while they seem compatible the rubber boot on the ball joint deteriorates within 12 months.
Otherwise there is the possibility of refurbishing the existing arms, with SuperPro bushes, because we understand that these have similar characteristics to the OE bushes.
That would leave the ball joint/ track rod end for consideration. If in good condition this could be reused, alternatively replaced with a good quality after market ball joint/ track rod end.

If you would kindly provide me with your  regular/ Forum prices for the following items I would put them into a post.

1: Toyota OE  Front lower control arm complete: price:
2: Aftermarket complete alternative:( If suitable/ available)price:
3: SuperPro replacement bushes for lower control arm  price:
4: Aftermarket ball joint/ track rod end ( if suitable/ available) price:

Thank you in anticipation

[Joesson]

And here is Paul's prompt response:

Thank you for your email about these items for the MR2 Roadsters
I did indeed know of the Yaris arm option on the MR2's which kinda prompted me not to stock wishbones due to the crazy low cost on these arms

1: Toyota OE  Front lower control arm complete: price: Our Price £166.88 each + VAT (Retail £338.81 each + VAT)
2: Aftermarket complete alternative:( If suitable/ available)price: £90.00 each + VAT
3: SuperPro replacement bushes for lower control arm  price: they do 2 types a standard or caster increase bush, STD £114.70 + VAT or Caster Increase £91.14 + VAT
4: Aftermarket ball joint/ track rod end ( if suitable/ available) price: £9.00 each + VAT
5: Replacement Higher Quality Yaris Ball Joint - £11.00 each + VAT (Delphi)

Thank You
Paul Pridham
Company Director
TCB Performance Parts Limited
www.tcbparts.co.uk
01579 383879
Mon - Fri 8:30 - 5:00
Specialists in Quality New and Used Toyota Celica, Supra and MR2 parts for over 27 years!

[Joesson]

AMENDMENT SEE #120 FROM TCB

[Joesson]

The OP @frogger said
"It's quite expensive to buy new arms, but only £55 for the bushes"

The above figures will hopefully give some clarity to the debate.

[scm2004red]

All helpful stuff, my only, perhaps pedantic, comment would be that you have requested a price for a ball joint/tre, which could be misleading to both TCB and others. The lower control arm ball joint is not the same as a tre and I wonder what has been priced?

[Ardent]

@Joesson @Paul@TCB

Very much appreciated.
Based on that. I could see me going the full fat OEM arm.
I could easily see the £50-80 diy saving being eaten into, as my DIY, would still involve paying someone.

[Joesson]

All helpful stuff, my only, perhaps pedantic, comment would be that you have requested a price for a ball joint/tre, which could be misleading to both TCB and others. The lower control arm ball joint is not the same as a tre and I wonder what has been priced?

Pedantic? Yes!
But not without good reason.
Ball joint and track rod end have been variously used in this post.
The  ball joint is a part of the control arm
The track rod end is a separate item.
It would be good practice to examine / replace as necessary the tre when replacing / refurbishing the control arm.

>For clarity please refer to TCB post #120 where a replacement BALL JOINT is referred to.<

[Paul@TCB]

From the above:

New OE arm £166.84 + VAT (£200.21) EACH


DIY refurb £91.14 + £9.00 / £100.14 +VAT  (£120.17)EACH to

                       £114.70 + £11.00 / £125.70 +VAT. (£150.84)EACH


You will see that I have not included the aftermarket arm  option from TCB

one Clarification here which I should've made clear in the previous email apologies for that
is that the bushes are priced as a vehicle set so for both sides, so you'd be looking at the following costings;

Genuine Toyota Complete Wishbone - £166.84 each + VAT (£200.21)

DIY Wishbone Refurb, Superpro Standard Bushes & Aftermarket Ball Joint - £66.35 each + VAT (£79.62)

DIY Wishbone Refurb, Superpro Caster Increase Bushes & Aftermarket Ball Joint - £54.57 each + VAT (£65.48)

Thank You
Paul (TCB)

[Dev]

For street people don't get the Superpro bushing with the caster adjustment, get the standard.
Reason being that its one more adjustment that has to be dialed in after installation and one that can come out of alignment over time which would be bad requiring frequent alignments.  It's kind of weird that the caster adjustment bushing is cheaper than the standard.   
Also keep in mind that the Superpro bushings will be superior to the rubber as far as longevity and giving you a taunt new car like ride quality for a long time.
However if the OE arms come close to avoiding the hassle of refurbishing the arms its probably the better value.

[scm2004red]

I think TCB's clarifying note clears up the queries regarding the rebuilding of the OE lower control arms which is very helpful, if you are reasonably competent and the arm is sound it can be done for a reasonable price, about half the price of a TCB supplied OE arm ( which is almost half the price of Toyota supplied unit and good value).

The only outstanding question is whether an aftermarket supplied Yaris unit will substitute for the OE unit, if as has been suggested, the only negative is the ball joint cover deterioration, that can be easily rectified by changing to a good replacement before assembly, silicone boots are available.

[tatieu]

Hello

Anyone try to install or take a dimensions of a Corolla or Celica front arms ?
It's for increase the width of the front, and increase the camber, if it's possible.