Hi guys, just purchased a 2001 roadster and wondering how I can get around 20bhp on top of the standard 140?Best air filter,exhaust,de-cat?,manifold.
Thank You. s:D :D s:D
Assuming a turbo is not an option AFAIAA the only way to get towards that sort of figure is either the Unichip or SP's down-pipe / exhaust combo here (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11712), or both s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
By them selves the other "obvious" choices don't really add too much to party. Fun, noise etc, yes. Power maybe the odd BHP here or there, but nothing significant
you aren't going to get 20bhp just out of teh sp downpipe and backbox in a wet dream.
Quote from: "markiii"you aren't going to get 20bhp just out of the sp downpipe and backbox in a wet dream.
Quote from: "roger".....towards that sort of figure ....
what about manifolds and air filters guys?Is it right to say that the manifold comes first then the downpipe and then last the silencer?20bhp seems a reachable figure with a decent air filter,manifold and system.Would you guys say this?
Thanks
Quote from: "123gruffudd"what about manifolds and air filters guys?
A basic "ebay / Che" type manifold is claiming 7BHP. H&S are doing an offering but no reports of a dyno.
Don't know about various filters / CAI - but don't expect much.
QuoteIs it right to say that the manifold comes first then the downpipe and then last the silencer?
Yes
Quote20bhp seems a reachable figure with a decent air filter,manifold and system.
Just about. You can always try. Trouble is multiple before and after dynos get expensive.
Don't think you really need to worry about the filter on the MR2. You should be able to get 20bhp with a Manifold, de-cat, exhaust and Unichip.
Changing Air Filter alone won't give you any increase and CAI isn't effective in these cars due to the cramped and warm engine bay. The PPE inlet draws air from behind the battery and IMO is the only one that could give a performance increase. PPE claim 4bhp, that may be optimistic but I'd say its close.
There's plenty of exhaust manifolds around but seeing as most of them are copies of the TRD or TTE, since TRD claim there's no performance benefit it's hard to see how the others could be any better. PPE have a exhaust manifold which they claim has a 8bhp increase if using there cat or 11 bhp using their down pipe (not road legal though). I have the exhaust manifold and love it for the noise but Id be surprised if there really is as much a performance increase as they claim (Mind you it does leave you pre cat free).
As for Exhaust systems a stainless steel system will of course be a lot lighter then stock but as far as I know only two have shown proven performance increases, Hayward and Scott and Silverstone Performance. Silverstone claim they've seen increases of 12 bhp but that's without a cat.
I think a gain of 20 bhp from a system like this would still be optimistic, but probably achievable if unichipped.
Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. Use the search function to find out more, everything I've just told you has been covered many times by more knowledgeable people than me.
Quote from: "kj"....since TRD claim there's no performance benefit it's hard to see how the others could be any better......
TRD claim 14bhp with their manifold, back box and inlet pipe
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Sorry
Quote from: "kj"Changing Air Filter alone won't give you any increase and CAI isn't effective in these cars due to the cramped and warm engine bay. The PPE inlet draws air from behind the battery and IMO is the only one that could give a performance increase. PPE claim 4bhp, that may be optimistic but I'd say its close.
There's plenty of exhaust manifolds around but seeing as most of them are copies of the TRD or TTE, since TRD claim there's no performance benefit it's hard to see how the others could be any better. PPE have a exhaust manifold which they claim has a 8bhp increase if using there cat or 11 bhp using their down pipe (not road legal though). I have the exhaust manifold and love it for the noise but Id be surprised if there really is as much a performance increase as they claim (Mind you it does leave you pre cat free).
As for Exhaust systems a stainless steel system will of course be a lot lighter then stock but as far as I know only two have shown proven performance increases, Hayward and Scott and Silverstone Performance. Silverstone claim they've seen increases of 12 bhp but that's without a cat.
I think a gain of 20 bhp from a system like this would still be optimistic, but probably achievable if unichipped.
Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. Use the search function to find out more, everything I've just told you has been covered many times by more knowledgeable people than me.
TTE don't make MANIFOLD.
Don't Fensport list the Trd as the TTE?
nope and if they do they are wrong
I got 12bhp (dyno-verified) alone out of TRD air filter, Markiii inlet duct, TTE exhaust and RPS clutch and flywheel. And that's assuming of course that I had the full 138bhp to start with. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Swap the TTE exhaust for an H&S one and add a Unichip and I don't think you'd be far off. Could possibly work out cheaper than changine manifolds and downpipes and cats and the like, too.
How do you reach at your "i need 20bhp more" figure ?
Sounds like a negligable amount will you know the difference
I'm aiming for about 160bhp as well...my last car was a Subaru impreza and weighed 1400KG's. The Prodrive performance kit transformed it from fast to devastating. That increase was a mere 36BHP from 225 to 261HP which equates to 16% - all from an exhaust and a remap.
Going from 138 to 160bhp is also 16% increase but over a much smaller lighter car.
I'm not expecting 'sensational' but those extra few HP really do make a difference.
I've a che manifold coming and am planning a sports exhaust but retaining the cat. I figure that will I believe realistically give me about 150bhp. The other 10 I believe is on the table from either a cam change and a unichip of some form.
Expensive some say but the PPP for the Subaru is £1700 for 16%....I think the same is achievable for this car for a similar figure.
yeah but the impreza had a turbo
Quote from: "markiii"yeah but the impreza had a turbo
I know... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Turbo gains are cheap, I realise that, but in my experience whilst being able to deliver savage and sensational insane boosted straight line thrills ultimately create a less satisfying cornering power delivery solution. Lag is the enemy of smooth hi-speed cornering and hi speed progress down winding country lanes is spoilt by the on-off pulse of the turbo and as we all know country lanes are where all the fun is to be had!!..The NA is just a raw and instant and more 'analogue' delivery that seems to suit a 'chuckable' 'mid-rear driven little car like this.
Put it this way if money was no object would you rather have a 250BHP turbo engine or a 250BHP 12000rpm NA racing engine in your MR2 ?
A simple re-map via Unichip should give you want you're after, I reckon. Thing is with the MR2, for cornering you actually want perhaps a little less than stock power: That way, you can just keep your foot down knowing you'll come to no harm (within reason, of course). Try that in a turbo'd car (even mine, to an extent) and you'll be facing backwards before you know it.
That's exactly what frustrates me about the Turbo - because of the lag it's harder to 'meter out' the power and maintain the power tension on the wheels on a corner . I agree that you could never use all your power in any car realistically but that's driving ain't it!.
Unfortunately I think turbo cars make one a very lazy driver. The crazy levels of power stop the pursuit of driving finesse in corners becuase you take the gains from the straights to such new levels.
The MR2 has surprised me because I find it suprisingly similar to my old 1984 911 Carrera 3.2 running 240HP on 1160KG's. This car allows incredible cornering speeds and although true rear engine instead of mid engine using that level of power is always just a question of truly knowing your car, where ane how the power comes, and it's gearing, it's tyres, it's weight distribution and the nature of the roads your on. A car like that requires incredble finesse and technique - but that's the whole thrill of it. Adding 1mph to your cornering speed every time through - practice, analyse, evolve -
I believe the MR2 will really come to life with an extra 20HP - it's alreadyt nearly there IMO - and very slightly stiffer shocks...taking it to the utter edge will be very thrilling in the same way it was in the 911. Take it from me taking the Impreza to the limit was an empty, passionless, empty experience ( but it was insanely fast)
Quote from: "flynnstudio"Unfortunately I think turbo cars make one a very lazy driver.
s8) 8) s8) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Tbh, if you really want to go quicker round the corners then I'd go for suspension and chassis bracing over power upgrades first. That's where you'll get far more benefit from (on track, a well-driven N/A can more than keep up with a turbo'd Roadster).
Quote from: "Ekona"Quote from: "flynnstudio"Unfortunately I think turbo cars make one a very lazy driver.
s8) 8) s8) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Tbh, if you really want to go quicker round the corners then I'd go for suspension and chassis bracing over power upgrades first. That's where you'll get far more benefit from (on track, a well-driven N/A can more than keep up with a turbo'd Roadster).
on some tracks
but I agree, they are the most fun ones s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "Ekona"Quote from: "flynnstudio"Unfortunately I think turbo cars make one a very lazy driver.
s8) 8) s8) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Tbh, if you really want to go quicker round the corners then I'd go for suspension and chassis bracing over power upgrades first. That's where you'll get far more benefit from (on track, a well-driven N/A can more than keep up with a turbo'd Roadster).
mmh..thanks - I'm glad you've said that - I was wondering about that direction. I'll go with that advice 100%.
What do you recommend as a good 'fast road' setup that's very taught but forgiving on a daily basis on reasonably bad roads. I don't want rock hard track settings as I have no motorway or fine flat city roads anywhere near me and mostly bumpy undulating unpredictable classic british B roads...
After driving a few different Roadsters with various set-ups, I'd be inclined to go for the Sportivo kit that Markiii's got on his car (along with a set of Neovo rubber, if you've got 16" rears). The balance of the car was beautiful, but in no way harsh at all. At give or take £1000 for the whole thing (IIRC) it's not cheap, but it did feel to me to be exactly what you're after.
I've yet to try the TEIN springs and adjustable dampers in Phil's car, but given that you can alter the dampening from inside the cockpit they might be worth looking at as well.
Thanks..I'll look at those.
I had been considering the tein coilovers without the EDFC so I'd be interested to hear about those but I'll certainly check the sportivo's.
Unless I could find a way of reducing sprung weight without breaking the bank I was planning on staying on the stock alloys and potenza's to begin with (no point wearing out expensive rubber in the 'getting to know you' phase!).
Above all I'm after keeping the car fun.
(Anyway, I certainly don't ever want to fuel woes of a hi-bhp turbo again - I kid you not I once achieved 7mpg out of the Impreza on one particularly intense run - kind of took the fun out of it using fuel at the rate of 2p per second.)
Quote from: "Ekona"I got 12bhp (dyno-verified) alone out of TRD air filter, Markiii inlet duct, TTE exhaust and RPS clutch and flywheel. And that's assuming of course that I had the full 138bhp to start with. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Swap the TTE exhaust for an H&S one and add a Unichip and I don't think you'd be far off. Could possibly work out cheaper than changine manifolds and downpipes and cats and the like, too.
Trd panel filter, Markiii inlet duct, H&S exhaust, Unichip my exact setup; must get in Dynoed sometime s:? :? s:?
not forgetting your precats are gone
Quote from: "markiii"not forgetting your precats are gone
Thanks to your great service Mark a while back now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ekona Wrote:
QuoteI got 12bhp (dyno-verified) alone out of TRD air filter, Markiii inlet duct, TTE exhaust and RPS clutch and flywheel. And that's assuming of course that I had the full 138bhp to start with.
Would a clutch and flywheel make more power? I know a lighter flywheel will make the engine more "lively" but didn't think it did much else.
it reduces parastictic losses,
so you will in effect get more power
it transformed mine
I was under the impression from something I read (http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/how_a_lightweight_flywheel_works.htm) that a lighter flywheel doesn't affect bhp as measured on a dyno but does affect the effective (perceived?) weight of the car, especially in low gears.
Quote from: "Ernie Ball"I was under the impression from something I read (http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/how_a_lightweight_flywheel_works.htm) that a lighter flywheel doesn't affect bhp as measured on a dyno but does affect the effective (perceived?) weight of the car, especially in low gears.
exactly
It's amazing how your learn something new every day of your life s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Was it the change of clutch or lightened flywheel that made the real big improvement Mark s:?: :?: s:?:
flywheel,
see it won't affect power at the crank
but it will afect it at the wheels,
and its just revs so much more crisply, it revolutuionised 2nd and 3rd for me
Quote from: "markiii"flywheel,
see it won't affect power at the crank
but it will afect it at the wheels,
and its just revs so much more crisply, it revolutuionised 2nd and 3rd for me
So when I have the clutch replaced sometime in the future I may as well stick a lightened flywheel in as well then s8) 8) s8)
I would, Heath. Unless you're ever planning to go turbo, in which case I would definately do without it.
yes, though teh knack is not to go too light I found teh RPS to be the perfect balance
too light and you will keep stalling it when pottering
Quote from: "Ekona"I would, Heath. Unless you're ever planning to go turbo, in which case I would definately do without it.
now this is where it gets interesting
ask me last month and I'd agree with Dan, however having driven Stus C2 and mine without teh Hass 3" bore exhaust teh difference was amazing.
I'm putting it down to backpressure differences or low end torque, but while a lightened flywheel with teh Hass exhaust was horrid liek an off swicth with teh C2 and my Supertrapp experminet, it was transformed.
since I now Have Toms exhaust I'll let you know the difference that makes
Interesting Mark, I'd love to see what the difference again makes.
Yes very interesting; so many combinations when modding a car s:? :? s:? Is it guesswork when getting it right or pure skill s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'd go with 50/50, unless you're the first person to try it. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
budget
or learning from those that have already spent it s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:? :? s:?
unless your buying a Hass kit I'd go lightened flywheel. it won't harm your turbo experience but it will make the na experience hilariously good fun
My thinking in buying MoAtt's TRD clutch and flywheel was that I'd have to upgrade the clutch for a turbo anyway. Not that I'm 100% sure that I'm going to go turbo (especially since 2ZZ may now be an option; if I go that route, I'll have to sell the new clutch and flywheel). But if I don't go turbo, it's still better than stock. I'll give a report after I've had them installed.
obvious statement but check your insurance abiout the 2zz, had I beenw ith adrian flux 2 years ago I would have 2zzed already
I wondered about that. Actually I wonder if any irish insurance adjuster would have the cop on to know that a different engine was in there.
Quote from: "flynnstudio"That's exactly what frustrates me about the Turbo - because of the lag it's harder to 'meter out' the power and maintain the power tension on the wheels on a corner . I agree that you could never use all your power in any car realistically but that's driving ain't it!.
It's one of the reasons I ended up with a WRX and not an STi. I just found the torque spread and 5 speed box suited our roads better than the peakier STi. The lower power also helped when giving it some on the twisties as you could really ring it's neck if you wanted to. It was hardly a slow car!
Quote from: "flynnstudio"(Anyway, I certainly don't ever want to fuel woes of a hi-bhp turbo again - I kid you not I once achieved 7mpg out of the Impreza on one particularly intense run - kind of took the fun out of it using fuel at the rate of 2p per second.)
One of the reasons I've just sold mine and gone back to a little sports car. That and I didn't need to tow any more (the Westy has gone too *wipes tear*). It was just so expensive to run it was untrue. Fun and I'm glad I did it, but time to be all sensible again!
My 2 penneth on the roadster. I actually liked the stock suspension. I thought it was well balanced, rode well and was nice and exploitable. Strap some Neovas on, and a couple of noise enhancing bits and leave it be.
Quote from: "heathstimpson"So when I have the clutch replaced sometime in the future I may as well stick a lightened flywheel in as well then s8) 8) s8)
And guess what i have sat in my garage s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
m http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c253/ ... o-0082.jpg (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c253/discovery89/Photo-0082.jpg) m
Quote from: "juansolo"It's one of the reasons I ended up with a WRX and not an STi. It was hardly a slow car!
Snap - I got a WRX300 for the same reasons. Amazing engineering but at the end of the day I guess I really am just a 2 seater sports car kind of guy...
The Neovas seem popular around here - I'll have to give them a try next time round...
You driving a '2 now or something different ?
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Quote from: "heathstimpson"So when I have the clutch replaced sometime in the future I may as well stick a lightened flywheel in as well then s8) 8) s8)
And guess what i have sat in my garage s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
m http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c253/ ... o-0082.jpg (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c253/discovery89/Photo-0082.jpg) m
Toda racing; how much does that baby differ from the RPS s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "flynnstudio"You driving a '2 now or something different ?
I'm actually back to an MX-5 again for road and I am hiring Caterhams for track use for the time being. I was struggling to find the time to spanner the Westfield (and I'd had it for 6 years so thought it was time for a change) and when that went, my need for a sensible car went also. I considered all sorts. I have always fancied an S2000, but they're almost as expensive to run as the WRX was so I knocked that on the head as I can do without the big insurance and fuel costs. Same went for a 350Z or a Boxster S which were too expensive to buy period, I didn't fancy getting a loan for this car...
So back to Mr2 / MX-5's and I got a top deal on the 5 so I'm back to them. It really is a toss up between which one I prefer. I've always prefered the 5 as a road car due to it feeling like a classic sports car, but then the 2 dynamically is a much more capable car around the track. Slightly faster too... As it was the deal swung it and I'm a happy chappy.
I'm gonna stick with the 5 plus hire for a year or so then probably look to getting another track car. Something with a roof this time!
MX-5 is a great little car - but I'm 6'2 and they just come up a tiny bit short for me which is why I ended up at the '2 - but great conclusion it is to be said...the MR2 is about the only one I can fit in - must be the rear engine gave them the extra space I guess...
...not sure what modern cars with a roof there are that have the 2 seater vibe that will fill the whole left by a westy?...
Ever driven a big HP pilgrim AC Cobra replica for fun??
...but if you need a fun trackday car with a roof seriously try a pre '89 911 with a well sorted 3.2 motor....seriously addictive, suprisingly quite frugal on juice relatively speaking, and get a good one they will keep their money well ( as long as you don't blow it up!)
I have no idea at the moment. There's some cracking stuff out there. Something like a 968 ClubSport would probably be a better bet for me. It seems to tick all the right boxes. I'd probably keep the MX-5 for the road though so whatever I get can't be too expensive. I might even finally get around to getting an Elise...
A big V8 kit hasn't been ruled out, though it's likely if I went back to a kit car, it'd be a big engined caterfield again, there's nothing to touch them for fun.
84-89 911's are a lot more chuckable than people realise - absolutely 100% a drivers car - very easy to make them sub 1 tonne with some carbon fibre panels then you've basically got a car that's going to perform and feel like a '73 £100K carrera RS...and pretty simple to home maintain...( as long as your engine is GOOD!)...really depends on your budget I guess...
It's all moot until the end of 2007 anyhow as I haven't the funds to buy anything right now. Just enjoying running a sports car again. Even with winter rapidly approaching!
back on topic....
it just makes sense to me if you want more power then you ditch the 1ZZ and put in a 2ZZ every day of the week... s8) 8) s8)
How about PPE manifold / high flow cat and Unichip? Will have dyno results Tuesday for the setup, and am expecing something in the 155-160bhp region.
Group buy for the PPE manifold is on at the moment. No takers yet but if dyno figures are good it may take off.
Chris
Quote from: "N777CK T"back on topic....
it just makes sense to me if you want more power then you ditch the 1ZZ and put in a 2ZZ every day of the week... s8) 8) s8)
problem is you have to rev the hell out of the 2zz to get any advantages(anything above 6000 rpm basically), whereas turbo will give you power increase from around 2500rpm
Quote from: "ChrisGB"How about PPE manifold / high flow cat and Unichip? Will have dyno results Tuesday for the setup, and am expecing something in the 155-160bhp region.
15-20Bhp for £800 s:? :? s:?
£3000 would give you up to 130Bhp if you go turbo, perhaps even more
simple maths imho
Stu - Interesting comment, but what you need to do is state which kit your are talking about, it must be either a C2 or Hass home install?
If you look at a TTE then thats an inprovement of between 50 to 70BHP for a price of £4200 or for a further £2000 you can have an additional 30 to 40 BHP. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
It's all about what you are prepared to pay in one go. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Rob
its in my sig bar below
Phils was recorded at 270Hp at the dyno day
Quote from: "kanujunkie"problem is you have to rev the hell out of the 2zz to get any advantages(anything above 6000 rpm basically), whereas turbo will give you power increase from around 2500rpm
PE will give it from 1500 rpm, but you won't get 270 horses out of it! s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "FGRob"Stu - Interesting comment, but what you need to do is state which kit your are talking about
Why, the only sane choice, of course s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Quote from: "ChrisGB"How about PPE manifold / high flow cat and Unichip? Will have dyno results Tuesday for the setup, and am expecing something in the 155-160bhp region.
15-20Bhp for £800 s:? :? s:?
£3000 would give you up to 130Bhp if you go turbo, perhaps even more
simple maths imho
Hi Stu
The OP was looking at basic mods and looking for around 20bhp, so I thought it would be a good suggestion.
IMO to go turbo, you need to be spending money on the turbo kit, bracing and possibly other suspension mods to make it properly sorted. I am already finding on stock power that there needs to be more stiffness in the shell. Then there is setup time on the RR to consider. Going +130bhp will probably need a new clutch as well. So this lot has to be added to the turbo kit cost. Having had a go In Liz's car, I can see the appeal of the turbo conversion though. I was particularly impressed with the surge and peak free delivery and easy to modulate throttle. An expensive but very high quality installation.
The turbo car will be fast, no mistake, but also will have turbo throttle response and the more boost you run, the more the lag becomes noticable. Also, stock rear tyres seem IMO a little marginal for the big power hike, so will need wider rears, that in turn require wider fronts to retain balance, which in turn loses the original feel of the '2, the feel that was the reason I bought one in the first place.
PPE manifold working into the stock cat will make a little added power, 8bhp or so on its own, maybe a bit more with PPE's high flow cat and more still with a decent exhaust. If that is all one is aiming for, I would suggest that the Che manifold giving 147bhp with a sports exhaust is very good value for money.
I will get dyno results before and after Unichip for the PPE manifold and high flow cat for reference.
However, if +20bhp is the goal, the diminishing returns will come into play. To make the best use of the PPE setup, a Unichip or similar will be required. Dyno results show 163 - 167bhp with decat pipes and management changes. The Unichip is generally seen as being a good investment for N/A engines in terms of drivability regardless of breathing mods as well.
Turbo is a good way to go, but surely it is not for everyone? Besides, not everyone can afford it. I can but dont want to. I need a Sunday morning visit from the turbo evangelists s:D :D s:D
Chris
PS Why have you not got +500bhp?
i spent 3 years with the unichip and alike, it never gave enough constant power for burying the cars in and out of the corners and definatley not enough for the straights, the turbo which whilst yes you do get a small amount of lag, but it is tiny, opens up a whole new world of motoring, it'll compete with lot more powerful cars on the straights and thrash the hell out of almost every car on the road in the twisties, perhaps not caterhams or cars of that ilk. As for the mods, i've got tte lowering springs, tte arb's for the suspension, no braking mods, for the engine a new clutch yes you do need one, and a set of kirks mounts, but thats it. You can do all of the important bits for the 3K, thats turbo kit, clutch and kirks. The suspension mods are not essential, adviseable but not essential.
The cost is based on the C2 price at todays exchange rate which is £2,438. Not bad really
as for a visit, let me get the CC and tune done first, she maxes out way short at the moment s:( :( s:( , heat soak is a bitch
Quote from: "ChrisGB"PS Why have you not got +500bhp?
because its our only car and my daily drive to work, plus i value my licence too much
Quote from: "kanujunkie"i spent 3 years with the unichip and alike, it never gave enough constant power for burying the cars in and out of the corners and definatley not enough for the straights, the turbo which whilst yes you do get a small amount of lag, but it is tiny, opens up a whole new world of motoring, it'll compete with lot more powerful cars on the straights and thrash the hell out of almost every car on the road in the twisties, perhaps not caterhams or cars of that ilk. As for the mods, i've got tte lowering springs, tte arb's for the suspension, no braking mods, for the engine a new clutch yes you do need one, and a set of kirks mounts, but thats it. You can do all of the important bits for the 3K, thats turbo kit, clutch and kirks. The suspension mods are not essential, adviseable but not essential.
The cost is based on the C2 price at todays exchange rate which is £2,438. Not bad really
as for a visit, let me get the CC and tune done first, she maxes out way short at the moment s:( :( s:( , heat soak is a bitch
Quote from: "ChrisGB"PS Why have you not got +500bhp?
because its our only car and my daily drive to work, plus i value my licence too much
Hi Stu
I think that I am coming to this from a different perspective. I spent years looking for the fastest car that I could buy for those rare occasions where a race is on. I dont particularly want to spend time competing on track. On the road, since I got the MR2, I have already had one near miss (a mate chasing did not realise what braking is until I left it a little later than ususal into a corner and nearly dropped him in an accident) and one actual off (the driver of the hotted up Fiesta chasing just plain did not make the turn in, no injuries but his car was a write off). For straight line speed, there are no doubt a large number of hot hatches that can go faster than the '2. To address this, the tuning I am doing puts me in the same power to weight ratio region as the corpulent Focus ST, Golf GTi etc. More would be nice, but essentially it is not going to make much difference to the enjoyment of the car. It is not a huge power gain, but it is a light car. It will mean that the '2 will accelerate quicker than my Fabia.
Diminishing returns apply to turbo power as well. Going from 138 to 160bhp is 16% or so. The stock TTE kit on the original SP cars made what 182bhp? So for a further £3000 I get a further 14%. There are of course cheaper turbo kits making more power. Also, the amount faster that the car goes is not linear with power hike as at higher speeds, aerodynamic loads blunt the performance of all but the most brutal of engines. Fact is that each incremental hike of say 20bhp becomes ever less noticable and an ever smaller percentage improvement. Having said that, the '2 and a turbo make for an economically astute way to go beating machinery costing LOTS of money. Take my Fabia. The 60bhp advantage over stock is seriously noticable if you were chasing in a standard car. The next stage of mods would be to get a bigger turbo and a bigger intercooler. This would yield around 230bhp, but the difference for over £2000 would not be hugely noticable on road. Next step is uprated injection volume for maybe 260bhp, loads more money, smaller subjective gain still. If I really craved that accelerative hit, I would go back to bikes. It took a lot of willpower to not get a two wheeler.
The challenge I prefer is that of driver, car and road. For this, I want to retain the tactility and balance of the original to a large extent, even improve it if possible (hence my imminent investment in a lot of bracing). As an example, today I was out for an hour or so, and came across a couple of empty roundabouts where I was able to corner hard enough that full throttle in third would have overcome the back end grip. The sensation of hoiking the car in, then balancing the grip against the throttle and holding an oversteer attitude, steering the car with the right foot through the corner right on the limit was great fun. More power would not make it more fun. Turbo lag would make it less fun, no matter how little lag there was.
I think it is great that we have the choice of what to do, and the base car for some very serious performance if we want it. Some want monster performance, others want the nimble and accurate driving experience and are not bothered about being ultimately faster than anyone else. Still it would be fun having people trying to persuade me to go turbo s:D :D s:D
On the licence thing, I value mine a bit. Being an ADI, if I am banned, I am out of work for the duration of the ban plus four years. Suicide would be a viable alternative to going back to PAYE 9-5 for me. It was one factor that made me get the '2 as opposed to the numer of 350-400bhp cars that were on my original shortlist.
Chris
Quote from: "kanujunkie"problem is you have to rev the hell out of the 2zz to get any advantages(anything above 6000 rpm basically), whereas turbo will give you power increase from around 2500rpm
how is that a problem?
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
(the car is still a LOT quicker anyway!)
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "FGRob"Stu - Interesting comment, but what you need to do is state which kit your are talking about
Why, the only sane choice, of course s;) ;) s;)
OK s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "ChrisGB"More power would not make it more fun. Turbo lag would make it less fun, no matter how little lag there was.
think you need to read up more on how turbo's work, a turbo doesn't have to give you more power, its variable from nowt to a given amount, it depends on how your driving at the time. As for the Lag, well that comments bollocks, the point i was trying to make is that there is none above 3000rpm, and i doubt that a spirited drive will be below that.
try getting your hands on a copy of Corky Bells book on Turbochargers
btw what the hell does ADI stand for?
Quote from: "N777CK T"Quote from: "kanujunkie"problem is you have to rev the hell out of the 2zz to get any advantages(anything above 6000 rpm basically), whereas turbo will give you power increase from around 2500rpm
how is that a problem?
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
(the car is still a LOT quicker anyway!)
fair enough s:lol: :lol: s:lol: , below the point where the lift kicks in its barely quicker than the 1ZZ, have a search on here and you'll find the comparison dyno plots on both of them, until 6k theres nothing in it.
a turbo or supercharged 2ZZ though s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Quote from: "ChrisGB"More power would not make it more fun. Turbo lag would make it less fun, no matter how little lag there was.
think you need to read up more on how turbo's work, a turbo doesn't have to give you more power, its variable from nowt to a given amount, it depends on how your driving at the time. As for the Lag, well that comments b***ocks, the point i was trying to make is that there is none above 3000rpm, and i doubt that a spirited drive will be below that.
try getting your hands on a copy of Corky Bells book on Turbochargers
btw what the hell does ADI stand for?
I know how a turbo works (and multi / sequential / VNT turbos too), and because of this I know that ultimate throttle modulation, particularly at part loads, which is where you are when cornering hard, is never as accurate with a turbo as it is with an N/A engine. Superchargers are better, but still not perfect. Main problem areas are tubine inertia and intercooler fill time. Both are more of a problem at part throttle. I know this through my own experiences, and it is common knowledge. The best automotive development brains in the world are agreed on these facts. These tradeoffs will always be down to personal choice.
ADI = Approved Driving Instructor. If I get banned, the DSA (Driving Standards Agency) would revoke my authority to teach for four years from the date of the end of the ban.
Supercharged 2zz does sound strangely alluring though s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"because of this I know that ultimate throttle modulation,
bloody hell you like useing confusing words, i'd just say that i put my foot down harder or less, still i'm only the simpleton that fixes this technology s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "ChrisGB"The challenge I prefer is that of driver, car and road.
Why not leave it bone stock then? The one thing that continues to amaze me about the '2 is its ability to provide instant feedback about your driving - get it right, it feels fantastic. get it wrong, and boy-oh-boy, you know right away. As an example, I do a regular run through the Cotswolds to Oxford, including Fish Hill, which is a great hill climb. I braked too early for the first hairpin yesterday - like about 20m or so too early - and as soon as I pressed the pedal I knew I was going to enter the corner too slow. After driving an over-weight, over-assisted turbo'd hatchback all weekend, the '2 had again highlighted my inherently lazy driving style! s:-D :-D s:-D
Quote from: "ChrisGB"For this, I want to retain the tactility and balance of the original to a large extent, even improve it if possible (hence my imminent investment in a lot of bracing).
Yes, I keep thinking about this, but I'm finding it just too hard to spend cash on a depreciating asset. After 4 years of ownership, I must have pretty much the least modified car here s:-D :-D s:-D
Quote from: "filcee"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The challenge I prefer is that of driver, car and road.
Why not leave it bone stock then? The one thing that continues to amaze me about the '2 is its ability to provide instant feedback about your driving - get it right, it feels fantastic. get it wrong, and boy-oh-boy, you know right away. As an example, I do a regular run through the Cotswolds to Oxford, including Fish Hill, which is a great hill climb. I braked too early for the first hairpin yesterday - like about 20m or so too early - and as soon as I pressed the pedal I knew I was going to enter the corner too slow. After driving an over-weight, over-assisted turbo'd hatchback all weekend, the '2 had again highlighted my inherently lazy driving style! s:-D :-D s:-D
Quote from: "ChrisGB"For this, I want to retain the tactility and balance of the original to a large extent, even improve it if possible (hence my imminent investment in a lot of bracing).
Yes, I keep thinking about this, but I'm finding it just too hard to spend cash on a depreciating asset. After 4 years of ownership, I must have pretty much the least modified car here s:-D :-D s:-D
Hi Phil
I did want to leave the car standard, but with familiarity there are certain things about it that I felt could be improved.
Shell rigidity is one area. The standard shell moves about a lot and at the limit, it can compromise mechaical grip and make for confusing communication. I fitted a front strut brace last night and the front end is much more accurate in its responses than it was previously. Also, the tramlining (normally attributed to the Bridgestone RE040s) is alomst completely eliminated. This makes hard braking on rutted surfaces feel a lot more secure. Having driven a car with the TTE mid brace on, I can only say that it is a must have for me. So I am ordering an extensive (and expensive) bracing kit, Front Memeber, Midship Member and Rear Member brace set on the Corkys group buy. If the effect from the Strut brace is indicative of what the bracing will do for the rest of the car, then I will be a very happy bunny. I also drove a car with a breastplate mod and that felt significantly stiffer in structure than my later 03 rev car. Once it is all done, I hope it will be the car I expect. Besides, if I dont like it, I can just unbolt the goodies and go back to stock.
Engine wise, more HP and more Torque without compromising drivability and response is nice. I dont want to go for big increases, so am having PPE manifold and high flow cat fitted today with a Unichip to provide it the corret diet of fuel and advance.
The thing that continually entertains me about the '2 is the fact that it is a challenge to drive right. It seems that nowdays, most cars are set up to flatter the driver and smooth out the errors. The '2 makes you work for the result, but get it right and it feels great to know it is all your own work.
Chris
Quote from: "markiii"yes, though the knack is not to go too light I found the RPS to be the perfect balance
too light and you will keep stalling it when pottering
Two questions
1. Do you recall the weight of the RPS flywheel? I'm looking (very very casually, considering fitting at SOME point in my life) at the Cusco one, which is about 200 quid and would like one that's still driveable around town.
2. Does a flywheel suffer from wear in its life like a clutch does, or is it just there to provide a 'counterweight' of sorts?
Flywheel doesn't wear, its just a spinning weight.
Quote from: "muffdan"Flywheel doesn't wear, its just a spinning weight.
Hmm - an interesting statement!
Yes - the surface of the flywheel will wear down (just nowhere near as quickly as the clutch plate), which is why some of the aftermarket ones are "rebuildable" with removable friction surface segments.
The chances of wearing out a flywheel before the engine dies (on a purely stock car) is pretty slim, but has been known to happen.
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: my mistake, I should have said doesn't significantly wear. I've never known a flywheel on any car to require replacement, even ones that have had 250k put on them.
Question is.. who is going to go for ITBs.. Surely no lag just the feeling of a bigger N/A engine.
Apparantly FRD in Middlesbro do they for 1500 quid fitted but I've still not got around to calling them
Any thoughts?
apparently teh elise ones are good for 40bhp on teh 1.8K so expect similar gains done properly, and the noise :-) :-) :-)
that still ends up £1500 for 40bhp though
Quote from: "northernalex"Any thoughts?
Just that you must have mislaid the Search button, Alex... s:flame: :flame: s:flame: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16365&hilit=throttle+bodies (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16365&hilit=throttle+bodies) l
Quote from: "markiii"apparently the elise ones are good for 40bhp on the 1.8K so expect similar gains done properly, and the noise :-) :-) :-)
Hmmmmmmm 40 BHP on top of 168 - 208 BHP for £1500 Could be interesting s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "tom_deas"that still ends up £1500 for 40bhp though
TTE Turbo is £4500 for a ~48bhp gain s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Jason
Y'know it's always a combination of things that help this car!
You can make tiny gains with various things on their own - belive me, i've tried.
I've stumbled, well rather evolved towards a very nice setup now.
164bhp is quite fun in this car - not massively impressive compared to the FI setups, but still nicely enjoyable.
Apexi power intake
Bored & flowed Throttle Body
Che manifold
Janspeed Exhaust
TRD Lightened Flywheel
Exedy Organic clutch
Greddy Iridium Plugs
Castrol Edge 0w30 oil
Apexi Power FC
Tuned by Noble Performance
It's not cheap power, but worth it imho.
That's pretty much the best you can make out of this engine without replacing cams or adding forced induction. But at least plenty of people have tried and tested many ways to achieve more power and there're plenty of options to try now.
Personally my only route to more power would be a super/turbo charger setup, which i am still tempted to explore. But i've also invested in handling and breaking improvements so when/if i make more power i can control it. Adding power might not get you around the next corner any quicker, but stiffer chassis might do.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"But i've also invested in handling and breaking improvements so when/if i make more power i can control it.
Well said. +1
Totally agree, Its never a sensible idea to go for significant the power gains before making the car able to deal with it. It can get you into trouble.
Quote from: "muffdan"Quote from: "tom_deas"that still ends up £1500 for 40bhp though
TTE Turbo is £4500 for a ~48bhp gain s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Jason
value for money of TTE kit... witholding my opinion
but other turb options - say thors CC'd stage 3 - 280hp at flywheel IIRC? for £3kish in kit form... i dunno, 100+bhp for £3000 seems better than 40bhp for £1500 s:) :) s:)
n/a delivery is totally different to Turbo depends on what floats your boat
delivery is as important as the overall power imho
Quote from: "markiii"n/a delivery is totally different to Turbo depends on what floats your boat
delivery is as important as the overall power imho
id only opt turbo purely for power, not for delivery, personally. im a n/a man s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "northernalex"Any thoughts?
Just that you must have mislaid the Search button, Alex... s:flame: :flame: s:flame: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16365&hilit=throttle+bodies (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16365&hilit=throttle+bodies) l
Aaron, knew all about that - take a look,I'm pretty sure I even posted on there s:flame: :flame: s:flame: , was inviting discussion here and now (new members and the like) - plus Cumbrianchris seems to have completely vanished after his (non fatal but pretty serious) accident and Rich (his scribe for a while) hasnt been on much since his engine went pop.
Tom, you say 1500 for 40bhp.. Well the TTE turbo gives you about 48 bhp for 4K. So its certainly cheaper (as Jason said before).
Certainly going to have to call FRD one of these days (when I'm finished messing with me GF's new Renault 5 1.4GTS, turbo engine withougt the turbo.. for now!)
Alex
Quote from: "tom_deas"id only opt turbo purely for power, not for delivery, personally. I'm a n/a man
Try driving a turbo'd '2 first, different turbo setups can be very different to each other and I'd be very suprised if you didn't find a setup you liked. A small turbo will generate a huge swell of mid range torque and come with a low boost threshold. Depending on IC/CC setup, they can also give negligible lag. They're not all about top end power.
I'm popping over to Russ's place tonight if you want to pop over too and take mine for quick spin.
Jason
I have to agree with Mark here.
As a general rule, the extra 40 bhp will only come in at higher revs on an n/a, where as on a turbo, it comes in lower down (but I guess it is really torque I'm talking about here - this is where the turbo really scores).
In terms of day to day drivability (my daily driver is a chipped turbo 9-5 - sad I know s:( :( s:( ) the turbo is great, particularly with the auto tranny; where the n/a 2 really scores is round the corners.
So, what to do; if I was a track day fan then I guess I would go for the tuned n/a route - everything is going to be at high revs - so also need to think about chassis mods and maybe gear ratios etc. But for the every day driver, then methinks turbo.
Quote from: "muffdan"Quote from: "tom_deas"id only opt turbo purely for power, not for delivery, personally. I'm a n/a man
Try driving a turbo'd '2 first, different turbo setups can be very different to each other and I'd be very suprised if you didn't find a setup you liked. A small turbo will generate a huge swell of mid range torque and come with a low boost threshold. Depending on IC/CC setup, they can also give negligible lag. They're not all about top end power.
I'm popping over to Russ's place tonight if you want to pop over too and take mine for quick spin.
Jason
im saying im a n/a man because im determined not to get tempted into turboing until its economically sensible to do so s:!: :!: s:!: but that said when is there ever an economically sensible time to turbo s;) ;) s;)
ahh will have to stop by... i only live a few roads down anyway. what time you there?
going back to one of Chris GBs comments the issue with the rubo power delivery isn't all down to lag. the PE has virtually none
however, balancing teh throttle through corners i.e teh sweet spot between load and no load on teh engine is always more difficult on a turbo
it's manageable I know I had the turbo for ages.
however given an ideal world and teh same power I'd have an N/a engine every time
Quote from: "tom_deas"ahh will have to stop by... i only live a few roads down anyway. what time you there?
19:30 onwards. We'll be fitting Russ' new style bar too so we'll have to fit it in around that. Sure we can spend 10 minutes away though.
Jason
OK I'm joining this thread late but has anyone mentioned Superchargers?
Not sure of the current prices for the various kits available but mines up to +80BHP and theres definately more to gain from a better map.
Thing is, If you don't want lag, or an engine swap it's got to be the easiest way of increasing BHP and Torque.
Quote from: "custardavenger"OK I'm joining this thread late but has anyone mentioned Superchargers?
Not sure of the current prices for the various kits available but mines up to +80BHP and theres definately more to gain from a better map.
Thing is, If you don't want lag, or an engine swap it's got to be the easiest way of increasing BHP and Torque.
easiest if you have the ability to build the kit Rob :-) :-) :-)
not seen a production kit available thast just bolt on yet, though I'm really looking forward to seeing yours in the flesh
Oh no. Mine is bolt on. I'm getting it modified to sort a problem with the design but I'm sure any kit purchased from them will include this mod as well. Other than that and the fact it's running Power FC + 550 injectors rather than the single 750 and aquamist.
really? whos kit is it?
TTS, I believe it's not currently on the website but they definately have a pre modified kit on the shelf.
right. took jasons 240bhp monster for a spin (thank you very much!) and i can safely say im sold. thats all there is to say. except "f*ck me!". lol. madness. s:D :D s:D
Before
Quote from: "tom_deas"id only opt turbo purely for power, not for delivery, personally. I'm a n/a man
After
Quote from: "tom_deas"right. took jasons 240bhp monster for a spin (thank you very much!) and i can safely say I'm sold. thats all there is to say. except "f*ck me!". lol. madness. s:D :D s:D
I like a man who will stick by his convictions s8) 8) s8)
Phil
When it comes to delivery, there is also the consideration of the difference between turbo setups. I drove Liz's TTET car and the delivery is very linear, lag minimal and throttle response consistent. These are the properties of a good installation. It is possible to go for much more power, but then you may kill the gearbox (TTET was originally rated to 180 ish lb/ft which is where I would stay for reliability myself). Also, significantly bigger power means bigger turbine, means more lag. IMO the optimum setup would give you a flat torque curve of 180lb/ft out to the redline. This is difficult to do as other factors affect how the air enters the engine.
If I were going turbo, I would want minimal lag. For me, something like the PE setup would be favoured. Not huge power at 200bhp but small turbo for best throttle response.
I am looking to go Crower stage 1 cam eventually, with PE Camcon or PFC to tune. Response here would be purely NA.
As for ITBs adding 40bhp, I seriously doubt it is that simple. Maybe ITBs will allow tuning room for an extra 40bhp from stock (so 178bhp) or maybe more with other mods, but remember a set of tuned stubs in a plenum chamber will be cheaper to build, easier to set up and have better gas flow. Biggest advantage of ITBs is throttle response. I suspect that any big gain from ITBs or other inlet stub system may have repercussions lower down the rev range too.
Chris
Quote from: "tom_deas"right. took jasons 240bhp monster for a spin (thank you very much!) and i can safely say I'm sold. thats all there is to say. except "f*ck me!". lol. madness. s:D :D s:D
Big mistake - you will never be satisfied with yours again now..I was going to drive Perrys 3.2 Boxster just after I got my 2.5 and he said not to - not because he didn't trust me - but because he warned me that it was not a good idea to drive a version with more power.
Quote from: "Liz"Big mistake - you will never be satisfied with yours again now..I was going to drive Perrys 3.2 Boxster just after I got my 2.5 and he said not to - not because he didn't trust me - but because he warned me that it was not a good idea to drive a version with more power.
That was probably best! A friends got a 2.5. Lovely car, but what you don't know won't hurt you! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
So, Tom.. when you booking it in to SP? lol
Quote from: "evileye_xc"Before
Quote from: "tom_deas"id only opt turbo purely for power, not for delivery, personally. I'm a n/a man
After
Quote from: "tom_deas"right. took jasons 240bhp monster for a spin (thank you very much!) and i can safely say I'm sold. thats all there is to say. except "f*ck me!". lol. madness. s:D :D s:D
I like a man who will stick by his convictions s8) 8) s8)
Phil
It takes a real man to admit when he's wrong, good on ya! Just remember that all the turbo kits are different. The TTET and hence the SP240 is built around a small turbo and the setup gives negligible lag and a low boost threshold. Others might give more power at the expense of mid range torque. They drive very differently.
Basically try before you buy.
Jason
Did you ever get a dyno on yours Jason - just wondered as Bossmans SP240 was 225bhp, wondering whether yours came up to the name? Would like to get it done - but I can't justify the cost!
definately, lol
i have no pretension with admitting i was wrong! im totally sold on a turbo now. either at the end of the summer, or a nice little christmas project (probs the latter)
not looking for major power, and not looking to drop major £££ to get there. just something to satisfy the urge that will swell inside me, lol. im thinking id provisionally opt for Thor's stage 1 kit, and then next year or whatever I can get their chargecooler kit for £1k when i feel the need to bump it a bit further. plus the stage 1 at £2300 is pretty affordable (well, it'd run to £3k budget with added extras ie clutch etc etc etc etc). and kit form, no complaints. can take a couple days off work and have a blast s:) :) s:)
will need to ring my insurance company first though, because if the premium bumps TOO much then its not viable. but for manifold/exhaust/struts/changing my plate/admin fee they only wanted £80, so.... might get lucky. but that said they might tell me to "p*ss off" s:D :D s:D next april im 21 mind you - AND protected NCB - so should be safe by then
Quote from: "Liz"Did you ever get a dyno on yours Jason - just wondered as Bossmans SP240 was 225bhp, wondering whether yours came up to the name? Would like to get it done - but I can't justify the cost!
Not been dyno'd. Matt did say there was probably a little more to get out of it because the dyno was broken when they fitted the kit. They had to map it on the road and as a result mapped it a little on the cautious side. If I had to guess, I'd put money on it being somwhere between 220 and 230 atm.
The difference from what it was and what it is now is definitly worth the money Liz, if you are thinking about it then definitly go for it. I had the TTET with the SP exhaust system prior to switching to the SP240 so I had a similar power output to what you have now. With just the TTET torque falls away above 5k and you find you have to change gear. With the SP240 it pulls much harder in the mid range and then continues the hard pull through the full rev range. Fantastic.
Jason
does anyone know the cost to upgrade to the sp 240 now ? the prices for the sp upgrades do not appear to be on their web site any more
Still £2k
yeah 2k + the sp wheels and tyres 1k that = £3000 , i would like to upgrade but is it really worth £3000 s:?: :?: s:?: and is there any other company that could offer the same upgrade cheaper ie injectors and remap etc s:?: :?: s:?:
As well as the injectors and mapping, the kit also includes a fuel pressure regulator, induction kit and a Unichip to replace the TTE piggyback.
I don't think that I could justify the cost of the SP240 - for a start has anyone actually made 240 out of it? I believe SP's was 238 and I know that Bossman made it to 225 (of which I personally would not of been happy given the name of the product s:? :? s:? ), your not sure of the figures but reckon about 225-230 - which for me would be a gain of approximately 21-hp; £95 per horse is pricey and I am not too sure that the torque would be that much different to warrant the money. I am happy with the car as it is at the moment, the lag is minimal, the pull when your in 5th and put your foot down and it takes off is more than enough to keep me happy and surprise a few big cars! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Almost certainly not - but then, why should they? For any professional offering there is always that little thing called R&D to recoup, not to mention profit..
Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
I certainly hope not or they'd be out of business. You're buying a product that has been developed and proven to work. You're also buying a professional, warranteed installation, and a professional mapping. It gets bolted on and you forget about it (until you put your foot down s:D :D s:D )
The difference between my car now and with just TTET is the same leap again. The SP240 in my opinion is better value for money than the TTET so if you justified the value for money of the TTET then the value for money of the SP240 is a non-issue.
Here's the actual math:
TTET @ £4500 gaining 48bhp = £93 per bhp
SP240+Exhaust @ £2000+£700 gaining another 54bhp = £50 per bhp
That's based on hitting 240bhp. Even if you do only hit 225bhp you're still talking £69 per bhp.
I know my car was conservatively mapped at the time because of the lack of a dyno which SP said they would map properly once it was up and running again. For various reasons I haven't taken the time to have it done yet. That's the only reason my setup is slightly under powered.
Jason
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Almost certainly not - but then, why should they? For any professional offering there is always that little thing called R&D to recoup, not to mention profit..
.....and wages, and overheads. Commercially fitted parts are always going to cost more than DIY, and if you chose that way, there is only one person to blame if it goes wrong, but there is only one person with a huge grin if it goes right.
Sorry to hijack, but i thought i would add one of my pet hates. I get a bit fed up of the "how much do they charge!" type of post. Businesses are out there to make money so the owners can take it home at night, just as everybody here is. How they do that is their business. OK, get a feeling of prices if you are comparing suppliers, but don't dis anybody at the top end of the price range. They have their reasons - and maybe, just maybe they don't want the likes of "you" as a customer. [/rant over]
MR2 = £8000
TTET = £5000
SP240 = £2000
MR2 with 240bhp = £15000
350Z with 280bhp = £14000
s;) ;) s;)
More power isn't the be all and end all of a good sports car. Whilst I may have gone quicker in the VXR than in the Zed, I know which is more fun on the UK roads simply because it has more usable power. It's very unlikely I'll go back to a turbo car again, simply because more finesse in the corners will equal a quicker and arguably more fun pace. That's not to say that a turbo'd MR2 isn't very very good fun, because it is, but there comes a point when more power overwhelms the car. From my own experience, the MR2 sits best at around 200bhp. Any more and you're more hanging on than driving.
Quote from: "roger"Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Almost certainly not - but then, why should they? For any professional offering there is always that little thing called R&D to recoup, not to mention profit..
.....and wages, and overheads. Commercially fitted parts are always going to cost more than DIY, and if you chose that way, there is only one person to blame if it goes wrong, but there is only one person with a huge grin if it goes right.
Sorry to hijack, but i thought i would add one of my pet hates. I get a bit fed up of the "how much do they charge!" type of post. Businesses are out there to make money so the owners can take it home at night, just as everybody here is. How they do that is their business. OK, get a feeling of prices if you are comparing suppliers, but don't dis anybody at the top end of the price range. They have their reasons - and maybe, just maybe they don't want the likes of "you" as a customer. [/rant over]
exactly were I doing it on my own car I could probably do it for £700
however I dont' have to warranty or cover teh time taken to deal with customers e.t.c
Quote from: "Ekona"MR2 = £8000
TTET = £5000
SP240 = £2000
MR2 with 240bhp = £15000
350Z with 280bhp = £14000
s;) ;) s;)
More power isn't the be all and end all of a good sports car. Whilst I may have gone quicker in the VXR than in the Zed, I know which is more fun on the UK roads simply because it has more usable power. It's very unlikely I'll go back to a turbo car again, simply because more finesse in the corners will equal a quicker and arguably more fun pace. That's not to say that a turbo'd MR2 isn't very very good fun, because it is, but there comes a point when more power overwhelms the car. From my own experience, the MR2 sits best at around 200bhp. Any more and you're more hanging on than driving.
agreed though I'm convinced 200 useable bhp is available n/a and I'm definately convinced 250 with a 2zz
current challange is to see if teh VXR can be made more like an N/A in tractability :-) :-) :-)
Quote from: "Ekona"MR2 = £8000
TTET = £5000
SP240 = £2000
MR2 with 240bhp = £15000
350Z with 280bhp = £14000
s;) ;) s;)
ahh yes but more weight in the Zed s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Ekona"the MR2 sits best at around 200bhp. Any more and you're more hanging on than driving.
never driven a 200bhp, but +1
Quote from: "markiii"agreed though I'm convinced 200 useable bhp is available n/a and I'm definately convinced 250 with a 2zz
current challange is to see if the VXR can be made more like an N/A in tractability :-) :-) :-)
I think I'd prefer the MR2 with 200bhp in turbo form, and just accept the limitations of that as a track car and build it more for the road. A turbo in an MR2 makes it feel like something truly special, and I'm not sure an N/A version would give you the same thrill. That said, an nice V6...
If it's track use then N/A or SC all the way, definitely. You'll be okay in the VXR as it's got oodles of grip and a small turbo, which is why it's such a devastating weapon and scares the life out of 997 GT3RSes s8) 8) s8)
Ebay Special PE kit @£1000 (give or take a few) gaining 61bhp = £16 per BHP
NA = girls
Turbo = boys
That is all
s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
in a straight line o a roads then year turbo mr2
however I always missed ragging it down teh b roads using all teh revs, do that turbo and your going so ridiculously fast you never get to use all teh revs
Quote from: "aaronjb"NA = girls
Turbo = boys
That is all
s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
I'm sure Liz will have something to say about that s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I think Aaron forgto a category for all woman s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "evileye_xc"Ebay Special PE kit @£1000 (give or take a few) gaining 61bhp = £16 per BHP
???!!!!
is that buy it now or bidding?
Hmm, I was going to ask what that makes me then s:? :? s:? s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "markiii"however I always missed ragging it down the b roads using all the revs, do that turbo and your going so ridiculously fast you never get to use all the revs
See I just don't get that.. I know mine doesn't have as much power as yours did, right now, but I regularly use all the revs in 1st, 2nd and 3rd..
It's not like installing a turbo changes the gear ratios, so why aren't you going to be going up to the same RPM? You're short shifting everywhere? Turbo or not, at 7000rpm in 3rd you are well over the speed limit.
Case in point - a few nights ago I came around a sweeping, fairly tight motorway sliproad (M25 clockwise to M4 West, for those who know it), full-throttle at the top end of 3rd, and snatched 4th
while still cornering, and bouncing over a fairly hefty 'lump' in the tarmac. No drama, no sideways, it just hooks up and catapults out of the corner at.. erm. 70. Honest.
Quote from: "Liz"Hmm, I was going to ask what that makes me then s:? :? s:? s:?: :?: s:?:
I was kidding Liz s;) ;) s;) We know you are all woman s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "markiii"however I always missed ragging it down the b roads using all the revs, do that turbo and your going so ridiculously fast you never get to use all the revs
See I just don't get that.. I know mine doesn't have as much power as yours did, right now, but I regularly use all the revs in 1st, 2nd and 3rd..
It's not like installing a turbo changes the gear ratios, so why aren't you going to be going up to the same RPM? You're short shifting everywhere? Turbo or not, at 7000rpm in 3rd you are well over the speed limit.
Case in point - a few nights ago I came around a sweeping, tight motorway sliproad, full-throttle at the top end of 3rd, and snatched 4th while still cornering, and bouncing over a fairly hefty 'lump' in the tarmac. No drama, no sideways, it just hooks up and catapults out of the corner at.. erm. 70. Honest.
it's not so much about ratios as how fast you arrive at a bend :-) :-) :-)
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "markiii"however I always missed ragging it down the b roads using all the revs, do that turbo and your going so ridiculously fast you never get to use all the revs
See I just don't get that.. I know mine doesn't have as much power as yours did, right now, but I regularly use all the revs in 1st, 2nd and 3rd..
It's not like installing a turbo changes the gear ratios, so why aren't you going to be going up to the same RPM? You're short shifting everywhere? Turbo or not, at 7000rpm in 3rd you are well over the speed limit.
But everything happens so much quicker, and you've got to get on the brakes quicker, it just doesn't seem as much fun and you never feel like you're really driving. Besides, in a turbo you don't need to shit so much so you invariably get lazy and don't, and instead you ride the wave of torque in 3rd gear and leave it there. In an N/A you'd be standing still if you did that, so you have to work the gears and that's what makes it fun. I love having to drop a couple or three cogs on the motorway to blast past slower traffic now, whereas I always just left it in 6th in the MR2 post-turbo.
Tom, you're posting in a topic marked "Want more Power", yet in your sig you mention about running over a poor tramp! Shouldn't you start a thread in the Appearance section titled "Fluorescent yellow respray - how much?" s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "markiii"however I always missed ragging it down the b roads using all the revs, do that turbo and your going so ridiculously fast you never get to use all the revs
I can't wait to get my high revving supercharged 2zz back from Rogue s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Quote from: "Star_69"Tom, you're posting in a topic marked "Want more Power", yet in your sig you mention about running over a poor tramp! Shouldn't you start a thread in the Appearance section titled "Fluorescent yellow respray - how much?" s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
ahh now thats a story s:D :D s:D was outside a police station, the guy was drunk and on a bike (like, pushbike). he shot out of a side alley at 20mph and i was the unlucky b*gger who hit him. was my old Ford Puma. only had the car a week. thank the lord i was doing the speed limit down that stretch unlike most people. was no way i could have avoided him though s:( :( s:( the bugger messed up my bonnet! he took it like a pro mind you, just got up, dusted himself off, and asked me to get a ham and cheese pasty out of his bag. classic.
PWR turbo comming in at $5K dollars.. About 3K in pounds imported (with taxes I think.. although someone may calculate it correctly). Has a PFC and injectors etc. You'd need to add a clutch though. Check out the dyno plots for WHP!
Alex
Quote from: "northernalex"PWR turbo comming in at $5K dollars.. About 3K in pounds imported (with taxes I think.. although someone may calculate it correctly). Has a PFC and injectors etc. You'd need to add a clutch though. Check out the dyno plots for WHP!
Alex
lol what happened to the PE turbo "£1000" above?
PWR turbo for £3000... Thor kits less than that. and the worry is reliability no doubt?
PWR make chargecoolers, as far as I know they don't make turbos?
Quote from: "markiii"PWR make chargecoolers, as far as I know they don't make turbos?
another reason not to trust an imported turbo... well im sure someone would be tempted but personally i wouldnt hedge a risk with a non-UK AND an eBay seller over something that can go as badly wrong as a turbo
I think Alex meant Monkeywrench Racing (MWR). The kit is http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_turbo_kit_toyota_mr2_spyder.html with dynos (which is wheel hp, not flywheel!)
I think Alex might be talking about this one on spyderchat
m http://spyderchat.com/forums/index.php? ... opic=52803 (http://spyderchat.com/forums/index.php?s=df9e9e61041ccae284e1ef4fa016b743&showtopic=52803) m
D
hmm so it's finally available
not convinced personally experience with rear mount intercoolers is they are problematic at best
as for teh shoddy state of teh charge pipe in that picture and the location of teh air filter, I'd pass
shame MWR stuff is normally pretty good
option - wait for the US$ to become worthless s:wink: :wink: s:wink: then it doesnt really matter s:) :) s:)
yes I ment MWR.. sorry .. and yes its wheel wp (WHP). No Idea why I wrote PWR..
As you say Mark, these guys usually have a very good rep, but the location of the air filter isnt the best.
Cheers guys.
Bad day!
Quote from: "tom_deas"lol what happened to the PE turbo "£1000" above?
Was an ebay auction that one, the ebay add was reasonably descriptive but no mention of mr2 owners club etc, so few club members bid on the item. Turned ou tthat it was owned by a MR2ROC member who had a good reputation of looking after stuff, so Phil got a bargain there!.
Still had to fork out 300 quid or so for the emanage, then add the harness, then a tune, add gaskets and exhaust. think it was about another K all in. So 2-2.5K for the kit and all the other bits needed to make it run well.. And now he needs(wants) to add an IC or CC (probably an IC).
Cheers,
Alex
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Almost certainly not - but then, why should they? For any professional offering there is always that little thing called R&D to recoup, not to mention profit..
i agree sp are a business and should make a profit on everything they do or sell , i have no problem with them having spent over £5000 with them for my turbo conversion and sp exhaust system and like i said in my post no disrespect to them , put it this way if i wanted to have any building work done on my house i would get a few quotes from reputable companies and select the best quote , i see no reason why if i am paying for goods and services for my home or my car i should not know the cost of each then i can make an informed decision s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "firepower"i see no reason why if i am paying for goods and services for my home or my car i should not know the cost of each then i can make an informed decision s:) :) s:)
True enough - well, I did an in-the-head calculation and I reckon you'd be looking at about £1000's worth of parts unless you know a cheap fabricator for the downpipe (they remove the TTE pre-cat, if memory serves):
Unichip/ECU - £3-400
Injectors - £3-400
FPR mod - £50 (assuming they don't switch to a return system)
Downpipe - £3-500
Intake - £100
There was talk of a bigger intercooler and probably a few other bits and bobs, plus labour and a mapping session that would usually cost you £3-400 - it starts to look a reasonable price when you include a warranty and "fit & forget"
+1
except with the odd cowboy, (lol "Brokeback Mountain"... sorry heh), you get what you pay for
cheap turbo = thrills on a budget with a risk
expensive turbo = proper job you can have faith in
Quote from: "roger"Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "firepower"sp are a top company and no disrespect to them but with regards to the sp240 upgrade , does anyone no the sum of the parts fitted during the upgrade ie induction kit , fuel pressure reg , unichip etc do they add up to £2000 s:?: :?: s:?:
Almost certainly not - but then, why should they? For any professional offering there is always that little thing called R&D to recoup, not to mention profit..
.....and wages, and overheads. Commercially fitted parts are always going to cost more than DIY, and if you chose that way, there is only one person to blame if it goes wrong, but there is only one person with a huge grin if it goes right.
Sorry to hijack, but i thought i would add one of my pet hates. I get a bit fed up of the "how much do they charge!" type of post. Businesses are out there to make money so the owners can take it home at night, just as everybody here is. How they do that is their business. OK, get a feeling of prices if you are comparing suppliers, but don't dis anybody at the top end of the price range. They have their reasons - and maybe, just maybe they don't want the likes of "you" as a customer. [/rant over]
i hope you are not having a rant at me roger s:shock: :shock: s:shock: as i said in my post no disrespect to sp and yes i am only trying to get a feel of prices so i can make informed decisions which may also benefit other members of this club and having already spent £5000 with sp on the turbo which has been an almost fit and forget product i should think they would want the likes of me as a customer
Quote from: "firepower"put it this way if i wanted to have any building work done on my house i would get a few quotes from reputable companies and select the best quote , i see no reason why if i am paying for goods and services for my home or my car i should not know the cost of each then i can make an informed decision s:) :) s:)
I've got no problem with that either, but I guess you wouldn't ask a builder how much a 1000 he's paying for bricks, just in case you might be able to get them cheaper.
I think what you were looking for was the answer to "Is it good value for the money?". Unfortunately value and cost are sometimes totally different.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "firepower"i see no reason why if i am paying for goods and services for my home or my car i should not know the cost of each then i can make an informed decision s:) :) s:)
True enough - well, I did an in-the-head calculation and I reckon you'd be looking at about £1000's worth of parts unless you know a cheap fabricator for the downpipe (they remove the TTE pre-cat, if memory serves):
Unichip/ECU - £3-400
Injectors - £3-400
FPR mod - £50 (assuming they don't switch to a return system)
Downpipe - £3-500
Intake - £100
There was talk of a bigger intercooler and probably a few other bits and bobs, plus labour and a mapping session that would usually cost you £3-400 - it starts to look a reasonable price when you include a warranty and "fit & forget"
Can we add tuning the Unichip to that? another 300-400 quid?
Gaskets 25-30 quid?
Plasters for cut fingers etc £1 s:) :) s:)
Alex
thanks for the info aaron s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "aaronjb"(they remove the TTE pre-cat, if memory serves):
They keep the TTE pre-cat as part of the SP240 package, but a fabricated pipe is an additional modification you can have from them.
Quote from: "aaronjb"There was talk of a bigger intercooler and probably a few other bits and bobs
A bigger intercooler is certainly a new option and I believe is here. Matt said he's fitting one to an MR2 ( a member's car here?) this/next week and would let me know how it goes. Its the IC they use on their new Elise S SP package. Matt showed me the two ICs side by side. The TTE IC looks very cheap and inefficient compared to the new option and not just due to its increased size. It has the additon of fins internally to increase the cooling surface area further.
Quote from: "roger"[I've got no problem with that either, but I guess you wouldn't ask a builder how much a 1000 he's paying for bricks, just in case you might be able to get them cheaper.
We get that (although with bathroom suites, not bricks). Does my f*cking head in. Either you want us to do the job, or you don't. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Sorry to butt in on this one, but it's nothing to do with the cost of the bricks, it's about knowing a) whether they are right for the job and b) knowing how to lay them (don't take that the wrong way!).
Exactly. You pay for the knowledge, not the materials.
More specifically, the knowledge, time to fit, time to develop, workshop costs, business rates, employee wages and NI, cost of tools, a dyno (how much is that alone?) and the peace of mind given by a warranty.
On the subject of wanting turbo or N/A I reckon neither is "better". It just depends how you enjoy your car. I find the MR2 lacking in punch, especially with two people on board, so I would like more power. However, I don't get my jollies form the sort of feeble acceleration that an affordable car can generate (too many fast bike experiences of acceleration for cars to give me much of a buzz) so for me more power is a convenience thing. I came off a roundabout onto a straight on Tuesday, the road went dual carriageway for a couple of hundred yards, then closed down to single lane. I could see a 40ft lorry lumbering toward the single carriageway section and with around 200bhp, I would have gone for the overtake. N/A even working it hard, not a chance. The fact that the guy in the Mitsi Evo ahead comfortably made it is annoying though.
However, coming back the opposite way a few hours later and turning right on same big open roundabout I found it completely empty and proceeded to slice round it with the tyres right up on the limit, just playing the gas to balance it. Here, a turbo would have made it less easy as when you push that hard, throttle control is everything. I guess I prefer my jollies form being close to crashing.
What I ideally want is a supercharged setup to gain benefits of boost with a constant throttle response. It looks like kits are few and far between at the moment and I suspect one reason is that most of them are dragging the belt across ancillaries causing side force failures. Could be wrong on this, but experience tells me, crank to SC on tension side with nothing in the middle is the only way to do it reliably.
Having said all that, I really do feel the need to get more power and I keep looking at the PE kit. It uses a very small turbo and may just tip me in the direction of a turbo. I think I will try my set of stage 1 Crower cams first though. If I can get close to 170bhp for a relatively minor spend, the extra 30bhp just will not be justifiable at over £2000 + fitting. Also, don't really know how the throttle response I will change with the PE kit.
Either way, I have to save up enough pennies for a new tuition car first.
The other thing about power is than unless you have something incredibly obscenely fast, you just want more after you get used to it. Very drug like in its own way.
Chris
You will enjoy the cams Chris - very nice power right across the board, it may not be as powerful as a turbo but it's as smooth as silk and very forgiving. s:D :D s:D
Rob.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"The other thing about power is than unless you have something incredibly obscenely fast, you just want more after you get used to it. Very drug like in its own way.
True, I've gone and bought a set of internals from MWR, just saving up the cash I need to get it all fitted by SP.
Once they're in, along with a bigger IC, I'll crank up the PSI on the old boost controller and have SP map it to -320bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I will probably run two maps at this level, 240bhp for every day driving, 320bhp for straight line drags and bragging rights s:D :D s:D . I do like Stu's toggle switch for switching into 'mental' mode!
Quote from: "muffdan"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The other thing about power is than unless you have something incredibly obscenely fast, you just want more after you get used to it. Very drug like in its own way.
True, I've gone and bought a set of internals from MWR, just saving up the cash I need to get it all fitted by SP.
Once they're in, along with a bigger IC, I'll crank up the PSI on the old boost controller and have SP map it to -320bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I will probably run two maps at this level, 240bhp for every day driving, 320bhp for straight line drags and bragging rights s:D :D s:D . I do like Stu's toggle switch for switching into 'mental' mode!
At 320bhp, if peak torque is at 6800rpm, you are still at 250lb/ft. Given the usual toque curve of a turboed 1zz, that may put you up past 270lb/ft in the midrange.
I am happy I will not be your gearbox.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"At 320bhp, if peak torque is at 6800rpm, you are still at 250lb/ft. Given the usual toque curve of a turboed 1zz, that may put you up past 270lb/ft in the midrange.
The plan is for as flat a torque curve as I can get. Tommy's setup over in the Greek club literally has a straight flat line from 4k through to 7k (he also has a huge GT40 at the heart of it!). I'll have to wait and see exactly how mine pans out.
if you can hit 320bhp without a CC I'm impressed
Quote from: "markiii"if you can hit 320bhp without a CC I'm impressed
I have no idea, Matt insists that their larger IC mounted in the same place as the TTE IC is going to match any CC setup. I just don't know who to believe s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
I'll find out off Matt what difference to a standard setup their bigger IC makes on the car they're doing now. How I'll compare that to the difference a CC would make, I don't know.
if you can get the airflow it's possible and the TTET location has the best chance of getting teh airflow,
going to be interesting thats for sure
Quote from: "Ekona"MR2 = £8000
TTET = £5000
SP240 = £2000
MR2 with 240bhp = £15000
350Z with 280bhp = £14000
s;) ;) s;)
My c2 power kit with an rps street max cluch cost about €4400 (fitted)
So
Mr2 £8000
C2 turbo £3475
Profec e01 £400
MR2 with around 280 equals 11875 s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: