I have an 02 Red SMT Roadster, and I have looked at a choice of about 3 Turbos, I have had now fitted an Apexi Turbo made for them by IHI. I was impressed by the quality however there was problems Apexi negglected to mention that the intercooler will hit the neumatic bits of the SMT box !!!!. I also wanted an Apexi ECU to go with it. I had the turbo fitted by Japspeed who done a fantastic job. We had to move the battery from the engine bay and all new pipework was fabricated to suit the relocation of the intercooler the whole fittment took 35 hours. But was finished to a very high level of craftmanship. However there was a second problem some SMT functions and feedback are tied into the engine ECU which means it cannot just be substituted. So I am now thinking of having a Unichip fitted to overcome this problem does anyone have any experience of this. Also am I correct in thinking Toyota themselves are going to make a Turbo Roadster. Has anyone else fitted a turbo or changed ECU in SMT roadster and have they had any problems or advice for me. PS just now found this forum I will be here all night reading....... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
check out posts by MPH who has turboed his SMT.
then ask anything that doesn't answer. that should help.
Interesting you went for the A'PEXi. What made you choose that over the others though?
I've had dealing with Japspeed myself, right when they first started up. Very good and friendly firm - I'm not surprised you've got positive feedback to report about them.
Have a thorough read of what I've posted thus far. I too had problems with the SMT initially have I have that resolved.
Just to confirm are you using *any* engine management at the mo? I would strongly suggest not driving it anywhere until you do...
I thought A'pexi had a good name and it came recomended. I do not currently have any engine management except stock ECU so she does'nt run that well at the moment hence my urgency to resolve this with possably a Unichip. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Am i reading this right, you've also got nitrous on your car aswell?
I have of sorts it is not completly installed yet as I was waiting for Turbo to be fitted. What ECU mods did you do for your turbo ? s:D :D s:D
Firstly if you've not finished the install then i'd stop now. The power you'll get from the turbo will test the internals enough the NOS WILL DESTROY them.When you get the turbo running right you'll see what i mean about power.If you don't get an ECU soon to add more fuel and retard ignition the engine will be knocking like crazy.Prevention is easier than the cure.Have you got any internal engine work done?
I'm running a greddy e-manage but on a MT.This and the unichip do a similar job, as with anything there could be an discussion to which is the better........... but it's the e-manage s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (jk).
As MPH has said don't use the car until your sorted, well if you have to use it keep off going into boost (however hard that'll be).
I wouldn't worry about the NOs as Simon (at Japspeed) is an expert in this - he will probably be using it to complement the FI as he has in his own 140 Celica. If anyone wants to explore Japspeed, check out any feedback you can find on w www.celica-club.co.uk (http://www.celica-club.co.uk) w - I wouldn't expect to find anything but positive.
I am not worried about the nos you are correct Simon has a Celica same enging as Roadster he has skimmed the head added supercharger and nos and it runs fine. These engines are buit well and can take quite alot of punishment before they get upset. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "DAZ400"These engines are buit well and can take quite alot of punishment before they get upset. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I wouldn't bet on it. The engine simply isn't designed nor built for FI. I suggest you take one step at a time; for a start without decent engine management you'll have a melted block in no time. Don't bother thinking about NOS until you've got the turbo & fueling under proper control, that is unless you want to waste an awful lot of time and money.
I have no intention of using NOS yet I am not even using car except for essential journeys until I get ECU sorted. I will be on the phone tommorow finging someone to install and tune Unichip controller. I will run this setup for a while before I play with the NOS. s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "DAZ400"I have no intention of using NOS yet I am not even using car except for essential journeys until I get ECU sorted. I will be on the phone tommorow finging someone to install and tune Unichip controller. I will run this setup for a while before I play with the NOS. s8) 8) s8)
Only place to go - Millway 01264 336344.
I'm very interested in knowing what power output you get from the turbo once the chip is fitted. How much was the kit fully fitted?
Did the battery have to be removed because it's a SMT or does it have to be removed on all roadsters? (Mine is a manual 6-speed) s:D :D s:D
Martin and I have debated this one for a while.
The unichip is a cracking piece of kit, and pretty much the only way to go (unless you want an s-afc, though good luck finding someone who can tune it in the UK) for an SMT. There are other options for a manual car, but I personally doubt that they would be as costs effective. Martin reckons were it a manual he would go for a different ecu. But I reckon you'll only see the big benefits of going for a complete standalone unit if going turbo. and I still have plans to see what can be done NA yet.
I think a long chat with millway will be on the cards when I get to that point.
If you want the unichip though there is really only one place to go and thats Millway, the ONLY place with demonstrable gains on both an NA and turbo car using this. Worth the drive wherever you are.
Avoid like the plague these people who claim they can re-programme our ECU, it's not a golf, it's not that easy.
As there was a number of unforseen problems this was a worst case. The cost was over £4K because of all the new mods and pipework that was needed. However there is two factors.
1. If you have SMT then the intercooler won't fit where it is suposed to go because of the neumatics on the gearbox.
2. The intercooler also hits the battery as well as the air intake pipe this is because the Jap versions have a different shape battery to the european model.
So labour cost for all the changes adds up. However I now have a bespoke system which position wise where the intake power filter and intercooler are I think is superior to the origonal positions If peaple request I will put a couple of pictures up. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
we do, pics please.
can you take a shot of teh battery as well. I'm surprised it's different.
Yes i'd like to see some pics of the car. I think if i do eventually go turbo i'll do the fitting myself and save some dosh!
I'd like to see piccy's please. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Can i ask why they didn't do any management system for you? Have you had any luck in finding somewhere to fit one?
From my discussions with lots of people today Unichip is ok but not great, yes it can be made to work with adding another injector but it does not control the timing but actually modifys the crank angle input and adds extra fuel with the 5th injector.
If you have a manual them Buy an A'pexi power FC £750 replace your stock ecu go and get some time on RR and your away.
Motec is a prefered option and comes in 2 flavous the £900 or £2k this will control the timing and stock Injectors however there is some debate wheather it will control the VVT with the cheaper unit should have some more answers this week. A drawback with the Motec is they all say it could take 2 days of RR time to tune which seems alot to me.
Come January and there will be another option from Omex the 7000 which will control timing VVT etc more details soon. s:P :P s:P
What power increase will you get from an Apexi Power Fc, Will you get performance from direcrt replacement or will you have to tune it?
Are they simple to fit?
I've heard you get a lot more power than an exhaust and induction kit put together!
There's no one in this country that is skilled in tuning a PowerFC, there's no tuning software available and no support from the manufacturer - don't bother with it.
For NA & turbo(SMT) applications, a fully programmable piggyback (Unichip/eManage) is the way to go - search this site for my quantitive posts on the subject. Only turbo(manual) need consider a full replacement ECU, in which case Omex or Motec should be your only sensible choices.
So if you could just replace your ecu with the apexi and you could use the commander just for viewing info!!
Surely this will give you more torque and better performace and then even more if you could get someone to tune it!!
A/C works fine with apexi too as it's a straight swap, heard you can have difficulties with others!
You could. It does come with base maps too...BUT....the commander is a programmer, it would be one expensive viewer,and it wouldn't give you anymore power unless it was specifically tuned to your car, where the problem will be as it's just not used over here so no-one can tune it,well properly anyway.
A piggyback system, i'm afraid in this country is the best option.
OOPs need to sort this out
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you need to get some hosting...I think one of the members can do this for you
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you need to get some hosting...I think one of the members can do this for you
yes i can - Daz, you have my email address... send em over and i will upload them tonight for you.
About the Power FC...I don't quite get that no one could tune it in UK. Even if no one has ever done it, isn't it basically just changing the fuel/ignition parameters? And much more, if you want to...
And also you can get the FC Datalogit instead of the FC Commander. Datalogit allows programming through laptop, it has data collecting features, you can save/load the programmed data. Even download some basic maps for different fuel octanes etc and upload them to your car. I believe at least m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/ (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/) m offers these maps for their customers.
Check out their pages under Toyota. Good info about Power FC and Datalogit in there. And there's a LOT more info on Spyderchat, where monkeywrenchracing guy(s) post as well.
Edit: The Datalogit homepage is at m http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz/ (http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz/) m
Tem contact Simon at Japspeed he has power fc in his Celica and commander he knows all about it. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "DAZ400"Tem contact Simon at Japspeed he has power fc in his Celica and commander he knows all about it. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I'll leave that to someone who's actually interested in one for now, wouldn't wanna bother him just for curiosity s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Tem"About the Power FC...I don't quite get that no one could tune it in UK. Even if no one has ever done it, isn't it basically just changing the fuel/ignition parameters? And much more, if you want to...
And also you can get the FC Datalogit instead of the FC Commander. Datalogit allows programming through laptop, it has data collecting features, you can save/load the programmed data. Even download some basic maps for different fuel octanes etc and upload them to your car. I believe at least m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/ (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/) m offers these maps for their customers.
Check out their pages under Toyota. Good info about Power FC and Datalogit in there. And there's a LOT more info on Spyderchat, where monkeywrenchracing guy(s) post as well.
Edit: The Datalogit homepage is at m http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz/ (http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz/) m
Not saying they can't tune it, just no-one ever has, so would you want to take that expensive risk? You'd pay for hours of labour for them just to work out how to use it, nevermind tune it.The UK sucks for tuning specialists s:? :? s:?
And now i stand corrected s:roll: :roll: s:roll: someone does know how to tune it.
Quote from: "Viggs"So if you could just replace your ecu with the apexi and you could use the commander just for viewing info!!
Surely this will give you more torque and better performace and then even more if you could get someone to tune it!!
A/C works fine with apexi too as it's a straight swap, heard you can have difficulties with others!
*yawn*. Programming a full ECU is an art. Sure, anyone can do basic setup, but without the dedicated software and full understanding of how to get the best out of that software and ECU requires a lot of patience and experience. Even when programming a much simpler piggyback requires extensive knowledge of how to get the best out of it. Just because I have a basic working knowledge of the Unichip doesn't I have a clue how to get the most out of an eManage ECU - and that's where you're only messing with a couple of dimensions worth of data.
I'm not saying the Power FC isn't a good ECU, it's ok as things things go. But it has no install base and no support and no experienced tuners in the UK compared with the thousands of units shipped and supported by Omex and Motec.
Setting up a base 'safe' map takes at most a couple of hours - and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only saving you make with using a Power FC.
Simon uses datalogit. Best check with him.
Other than that, Martin's probably right.
(//%5Burl%5Dhttp://www.btinternet.com/darren.childs/pub/hid1.jpg)[/url]
Quote from: "DAZ400"http://www.btinternet.com/darren.childs/pub/hid1.jpg
Link does not work.
So are you saying a straight swap would give you no increase in performance?
sorry I don't have a clue when it comes to tuning!
I'm not really sure what is mean't by MAP!
What would basic MAP tuning? Just increasing everything slightly?
What is mean't by OBD-II?
I was just thinking of getting one in the future as hyline.co.uk sell them!
DOH. Not worked have you put your pictures on your web space now? click Img then the URL of the image then Img again
I know I don't know about this web stuff trying to figure it out give me electonics rather than software..... s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Looks like you need to be logged in to see that pic.
Quote from: "Viggs"So are you saying a straight swap would give you no increase in performance?
sorry I don't have a clue when it comes to tuning!
I'm not really sure what is mean't by MAP!
What would basic MAP tuning? Just increasing everything slightly?
What is mean't by OBD-II?
I was just thinking of getting one in the future as hyline.co.uk sell them!
What are you intending to do with your motor in the long run? Turbo, head work?
OBD-11 is the on-board-diagnostics. It's the white plug under the drivers side dash.
I don't want a turbo, Not really looking to do much!!
I just thought that changing the ecu may increase the performance slightly without being tuned (straight swap)! then the more you tune it the better performance!
It's only a thought at the moment as I might be able to get hold of one from Japan
hyline.co.uk sell them so i thought that i could ask them if they tune it, I just want to know what extra performance i would get if i didn't/couldn't get it tuned and just did a straight replacement!
I don't think you get any noise from them either!
As i said, not a clue when it comes to tuning! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
NA a standalone is just overkill then. Go unichip as MPH got some seriously good figures out of it on his before going turbo.
Finally got it nearly sorted here you go a working link!!!!!
The pictures are of the A'pexi turbo, HID headlamp conversion controllers and my NOS arm Switch NOS indicator and engine start button.
ENJOY.......
m http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm (http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm) m
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
looks good NOS i used to have that on my old car but i havent got the balls to put it no the 2 yet
got some nice pics there! like the starter button (if thats what it is!) and the nos button.
Any chance of some pics with your HID lights on?
s:D :D s:D congratulations, your now a pc wizard s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Oh yeh more photos please. I'm uploading mine tonight for you.
Kris I am only in bradville come round and have a look !
Quote from: "DAZ400"Kris I am only in bradville come round and have a look !
you have PM.
oh not fair s:evil: :evil: s:evil: LOL Kris when your there take some under cover pics please like wireing looms etc He He s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "Buster"oh not fair s:evil: :evil: s:evil: LOL Kris when your there take some under cover pics please like wireing looms etc He He s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s8) 8) s8)
If its in the evening then it will be dark, but if i pop round at the weekend then i will see if Daz minds me taking some snaps!
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "Buster"oh not fair s:evil: :evil: s:evil: LOL Kris when your there take some under cover pics please like wireing looms etc He He s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s8) 8) s8)
If its in the evening then it will be dark, but if i pop round at the weekend then i will see if Daz minds me taking some snaps!
you got a torch havent you s:P :P s:P s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "DAZ400"ENJOY.......
m http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm (http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm) m
Sorry, who ever put that intercooler in there like that should be shot - might as well not have bothered for the airflow and heatsoak it's gonna get. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "DAZ400"ENJOY.......
m http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm (http://www.btinternet.com/~darren.childs/pics.htm) m
Sorry, who ever put that intercooler in there like that should be shot - might as well not have bothered for the airflow and heatsoak it's gonna get. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Im guessing that thats bad then !
what if there was a cold air flow from under the car or somthing like that or should it be put so that it has constant air flow for heat dissipation ???
Explain why you say that
who me or martin s:?: :?: s:?: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Martin explain why you think that
Quote from: "DAZ400"Explain why you say that
I think what he's trying to say (less than delicately) is that you'd want your intercooler to be able to use cold air to cool it's fins, and that, perhaps the best spot for this is near the other thing with fins: the radiator.
Quote from: "DAZ400"Explain why you say that
Simply, no airflow.
To have an air/air intercooler in that position will require ducting from under the car straight to the intercooler. SteveJ can tell you the ambient temperature at the location you've got it, and hence the heatsoak issue as you're right next to the engine. Not that it's place suitably for the side duct, but empirical evidence suggests that the duct is actually a low pressure area so there is little air flow at that point. Suggest you look the amount of work Lauren (http://www.bookatrack.com/-pP?2054) had to do to her mk1 supercharger intercooler in order to get it to work with any efficiency.
But what you don't see is the big black pipe ducting cold air straight from the side vents through the intercooler. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "DAZ400"But what you don't see is the big black pipe ducting cold air straight from the side vents through the intercooler. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
That would be good - assuming it's actually attached and sealed to the entire core, but you may find that you'll actually see less air going through it than if it wasn't attached at all - see post above for details.
It is attached and sealed and has a heat sheild plate against the engine side and ducts to cover the whole intercooler. I would expect A'pexi to have thought about it With their reputation to uphold.
...But you stated it's not in the original location where it was designed for..?
But is very close to where it is supposed to be
Here's my PE turbo,e-manage,profec e-01
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car2.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car5.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car6.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car7.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car4.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car3.jpg)
And the car itself and twin twin exhaust (not to everyones taste i know s:? :? s:? )
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car8.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car1.jpg)
YES i know it needs a clean!!!
Why do you have an advert for Norwich Union Direct instead of the stereo? I know the standard stereo is nothing special, but surely it's not that bad.
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Didn't notice that s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Does the PE kit not have an intercooler with it ?
No.
Quote from: "DAZ400"Does the PE kit not have an intercooler with it ?
Nope. DIY job, which TBH I think is a good thing.
Decent intercooling costs mucho $$ to do properly (certainly on this car) and that would put many off the initial purchase price of a kit. Those that simply want to throw an air/air in and hope it'll do the job can, while those that like their engines intact can spend the extra and do the job properly.
It's not that air/air is all bad, but in mid-engine layouts, getting sufficient air through them is the big problem. The TTE turbo uses an air/air - but they had the advantage of a wind tunnel to hand when in designing the scoop and feed for it.
Martin what turbo kit do you have ?
The Celica injectors you had and sold do you have any info on them from what exact model and age type ?
If your turbo did not come with an intercooler have you put one in yours ?
When mine is finished I will measure air flow and temperature to see what is actually happening.
Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "DAZ400"Explain why you say that
Simply, no airflow.
To have an air/air intercooler in that position will require ducting from under the car straight to the intercooler. SteveJ can tell you the ambient temperature at the location you've got it, and hence the heatsoak issue as you're right next to the engine. Not that it's place suitably for the side duct, but empirical evidence suggests that the duct is actually a low pressure area so there is little air flow at that point. Suggest you look the amount of work Lauren (http://www.bookatrack.com/-pP?2054) had to do to her mk1 supercharger intercooler in order to get it to work with any efficiency.
About 45 - 50 degrees centigrade ie. Bl**dy HOT! And those temps were taken from data I gathered in Angelsey earlier this year (outside temp ~10C)
so why do some turbo's have intercoolers and other dont ?????? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "Buster"so why do some turbo's have intercoolers and other dont ?????? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Cause too many ppl stare at the price tag and go for the cheapest one? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I didn't go for the cheapest i went for the only 1 that I thought had enough support through other installers, incase of trouble.The fact it didn't have an IC didn't put me off as the psi they are set at it really isn't neccessary,and my future plans the air/air wasn't enough,so it would of been a waste of money.I'm happy going with my choice of water injection, untill i build a custom air/water IC to work with it, not instead of.
The apexi IC position seems that it would be inefficient, but at the set psi, not having 1 at all isn't the end so having 1, however efficient it is, can't be bad.(unless it soaks in more heat than it loses).If i was to go up from the set psi i wouldn't rely on an air/air to keep it cool enough.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"The fact it didn't have an IC didn't put me off as the psi they are set at it really isn't neccessary...
I disagree with this. The traditionalists say that "anything under 8psi doesn't need an intercooler". However, that 'not need' is a very subjective phrase.
Even if you never make any positive boost, just having the charge intake go through the turbine housing will substanially increase it's temperature. I don't have a quantitive figures but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate a figure of 30C over ambient once the engine is warm and could be significantly more.
Using Gay-Lussac's Law (P / T = k) expect upto another 40% or so increase for when you're running under our low levels of boost and you can see why I think that 'not need' phrase is a bit too subjective for my liking. Our engine certainly isn't designed for FI and throwing in such high charge temperatures to an engine which is set at such a high compression level just doesn't sounds too appealing for longevity.
Quote from: "mph"I don't have a quantitive figures but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate a figure of 30C over ambient once the engine is warm and could be significantly more.
Temps from one 2.0l turboed engine running at max 1bar (=14.5psi).
Outdoor temp 25C (=77F)
After turbo 124C (=255F) (before IC)
Obviously that might not have anything to do with MR2's intake temp after completely different turbo at different boost, but gives some idea about the temps on one single case.
All be it, PE and top secrets R&D have came up with 2 turbo's both without an IC for mainsteem sale.(top secret doing an IC optional extra).
4.5psi instead of 6psi being their now set "safe" level.
I agree totally that heat kills, i want to be safe than sorry that's why i'm going to use WI.
I've run for over 6months now at 6.5psi without IC and so are many others, without problem.Long term who knows, but lets face it enough '2 engines NA are giving up so i'm not loosing sleep over it. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Just found out that should i change the standard ECU for the Apexi Power Fc, I would gain around 12bhp.
If i get it mapped then it could increase to 20-25bhp. mapping can take up to 6 hours!
Could increase a lot more with a turbo, induction kit or exhaust!
Does anyone know if i would get more engine noise?
Quote from: "Viggs"Just found out that should i change the standard ECU for the Apexi Power Fc, I would gain around 12bhp.
If i get it mapped then it could increase to 20-25bhp. mapping can take up to 6 hours!
Could increase a lot more with a turbo, induction kit or exhaust!
Does anyone know if i would get more engine noise?
Compare and contrast:
A'PEXi Power FC
pros:
- can change all engine parameters
- posh name
cons:
- high cost (~£800 ?)
- undetermined compatibility problems with other ECUs
- requires large amount of tuning time
- little to no support
Dastek Unichip:
pros:
- cheap (~£225)
- only changes necessarily engine parameters for performance gain
- proven power increase (search forum for details)
- lots of support around the country
- 3hrs to tune.
cons:
- can't change vvti point
To actually answer your question, engine noise increase is negligible.
Martin can you give me some info on the Celica injectors you had and sold please.
Quote from: "DAZ400"Martin can you give me some info on the Celica injectors you had and sold please.
Hmm. They were Celica GTS 330cc injectors - straight replacements for the MR2's injectors. Had horrible problems trying to get the car to idle - when on closed loop the ECU always over adjusted and the engine would hunt or stall. I believe the eManage effectively bypasses the closed loop problem (a full standalone would of course too) but in my case using the Unichip, they weren't a viable solution and hence why I've gone the fifth injector route.
Martin is that current Celica shape or one previos ?
Celica GTS from year 2000 onwards.The e-manage, because it has a injector harness directly controlling the duty cycle of the injectors, allows you to input the stock size of inj and the new increased size then it calculates what % of duty the inj needs to open less to make the car run correct in closed loop.
I wouldn't normally get involved in a public discussion about a customers car but I think some points need clearing up here.
Intercooler positioning - The Apexi kit places the intercooler on the rear subframe member, this is unfortunately where the pnuematic controller unit is mounted. In its standard fitment the kit comes with a back plate with a tube feed the plate is sealed around the edges onto the intercooler. We have moved it closer to the intake vent, the feed is actually shorter and there are fewer hot components near it. To be honest I think the position its in is far better than the Apexi position as its not so close to the exhaust system. This has also worked much better on other systems we have built such as a supercharger on a V6 clio that uses much the same IC layout.
ECU - There is nothing wrong with the Power FC. It is true that the commander is limited in access to the parameters and we don't tend to sell these to end users as it just gives them something to play with the tuning and thats never a good idea. We use the FC Datalogit unit to tune the Power FC, this works exceptionally well and exposes all the maps and functions of the ECU. From there its more a case of knowing how the car works and determining the functions of the ECU. This is something we have a lot of experience with on our own car, the supercharged Toyota Celica.
Engine strength - It turns out that the VVTi engine is exceptionally strong. How do I know this? Well the Celica we built has the VVTi engine, to get the compression down we skimmed the stock pistons, so they are weaker than standard. The engine is currently putting down 240bhp at the wheels and 185lb/ft of torque, again at the wheels. So far the car has had no reliability problems with the engine, it is using 1 bar of boost. To state that the car will just destroy itself if Nitrous is used with the turbo is simply not correct, the key here is using a small amount of nitrous to complement the turbo, this can only be done once the car is fully tuned and capable of taking the nitrous without throing the AFR out of tune. This is a matter of correct selection of the jetting for the nitrous system. Just to be clear, I don't baby my car at all, it gets a good hammering regularly and was on track at Goodwood yesterday getting a good beating of a novice driver (me) and a much more experienced friend who has never driven it before, I was clocking around 1:40 on the lap and he was a bit quicker.
If anyone has any questions then please feel free to contact me and I will do my best to help.
Thanks
Simon
Firstly...welcome.
Were glad of all input.I've seen the position of the apexi IC and i agree that it's original place seems a really bad idea.Your new positioning does look alot better.
You say the engine is strong but in the celica you do get better cooling, the '2 can never use a front mount IC so will always run hotter,so potentially less reliable.And as you say you've lowered the compression of yours which is not the case with DAZ car, or is it?
What sort of shot of nitrous do you use along with the turbo?
Do you know or remember what psi the apexi is set for?
I hope you don't think anyone here is knocking your work,i have heard nothing but good reports about you.Hopefully you'll stick around the board and tell us of any new developments you come across, and more info on your celica engine mods.....please s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thanks Simon for the considered response.
Intercooling: the point I'm trying to make here is that current aerodyamic understanding from the enthusiasts (State-side anyway) is that there isn't any significant airflow in from the side duct, certainly unlike the V6 Clio. I haven't seen the A'PEXi kit fitted so take with a pinch of salt: I would take a guess that if the intercooler is mounted on the lower subframe, it's either not expecting the undertrays to be present (is that the case with J-spec anyway?), or that the tube feed scoops from under the car (a là le TTE). It was largely down to this uncertainty of good airflow that I went for a full water/air intercooler setup.
ECU: I agreed with everything you say. However my view is that in general terms within the UK, there's extremely few garages with sufficient PowerFC experience to maximize it's potential. Further, with no A'PEXi presence in the UK, any unfortunate warrantee or update work means a trip round the world with the inherent customs delays involved.
Engine: Last time I was down at your garage I recall seeing your engine block in the back of a car! No doubt you'll correct me, but didn't you also port & polish the head? Such details such as this and lowering the compression, can have a big outcome on longevity. I don't know anyone prepared to go over .7bar without messing with the internals. That you're playing at a full 1bar is encouraging nevertheless, though not something I'm prepared to do on mine!
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Firstly...welcome.:
Thanks s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Were glad of all input.I've seen the position of the apexi IC and i agree that it's original place seems a really bad idea.Your new positioning does look alot better.
Whilst we would have fitted it in the Apexi position had it been a option, I also think it would have ultimately been a limitation in power output.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"You say the engine is strong but in the celica you do get better cooling, the '2 can never use a front mount IC so will always run hotter,so potentially less reliable.And as you say you've lowered the compression of yours which is not the case with DAZ car, or is it?
Correct on the cooling leading to higher inlet temps, this can be compensated for to some degree as the problem will be an engine more prone to detonation (pinking/knock) than a car with a decent FMIC, just look at the gains an average scooby can get just by the fitment of an FMIC. There are methods to compensate, using higher octane fuels, water injection and different timing maps to mention a few. The compression on my car is lowered, my point here was that the pistons are now weaker than stock, therefore more at risk from problems of detonation or just sheer excess power being generated. Frankly its amazing the the crown hasn't seperated from the wrist yet s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"What sort of shot of nitrous do you use along with the turbo?
Not too sure on the meaning of this question but I'll have a go. On any FI car and on cars with no vacuum dependant pressure regulator, you always have to use a wet system, this is where both fuel and nitrous are injected at the same time. The thing to watch on an FI converted car is that you drop the theoretical jeting right down. This is because in Fi the effect of nitrous is amplified somewhat, rule of thumb is three times. So if you have an NA car jetted for 50bhp, and assuming it attains 50bhp, then converting to FI your 50bhp would suddenly be around 150bhp, this will almost certainly rip the aris end out of your engine s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Do you know or remember what psi the apexi is set for?
Its around the 6/7psi mark, this however, is a little subjective. Remember that boost guages will only read the pressure in the manifold, this is why on most turbo cars, when you improve the flow rat on the turbo you suddenly lose boost, this is simply because the engine can now use more of the available air than before.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"I hope you don't think anyone here is knocking your work,i have heard nothing but good reports about you.Hopefully you'll stick around the board and tell us of any new developments you come across, and more info on your celica engine mods.....please s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
[/quote]
Not at all, I just read the messages posted and thought a response to clarify some of the questions raised was appropriate. I am not responding here to drum up business or discuss Japspeed in any way. If this thread had merely been a lets stick the boot in type thread, then I would hav dismised it as pointless and not bothered to respond. You don't seem many online discussions that don't end up in some sort of petty bickering.
Quote from: "mph"Thanks Simon for the considered response.
Intercooling: the point I'm trying to make here is that current aerodyamic understanding from the enthusiasts (State-side anyway) is that there isn't any significant airflow in from the side duct, certainly unlike the V6 Clio. I haven't seen the A'PEXi kit fitted so take with a pinch of salt: I would take a guess that if the intercooler is mounted on the lower subframe, it's either not expecting the undertrays to be present (is that the case with J-spec anyway?), or that the tube feed scoops from under the car (a là le TTE). It was largely down to this uncertainty of good airflow that I went for a full water/air intercooler setup.
To be honest there isn't that much airflow from the V6 Clio either. In both cars idle intake temperatures will be high, this is symptomatic of rear mid engine FI cars and the solutions are a bit obtrusive. It is possible to fit a fan to assist the cooling but this does effect flow at high air speeds so it is often best to leave well alone. My personal opinion is that the internal plate should be removed from the engine lid to get rid of some of the heat, removing the undercrackers would also improve matters and allow greater air circulation and therefore reduce heat soak. Not sure if the J-Spec gets undercrackers or not.
Quote from: "mph"ECU: I agreed with everything you say. However my view is that in general terms within the UK, there's extremely few garages with sufficient PowerFC experience to maximize it's potential. Further, with no A'PEXi presence in the UK, any unfortunate warrantee or update work means a trip round the world with the inherent customs delays involved.
This is true, there are few garages with experience with the Power FC, but they do exist. Its also worth noting that most tuners who really know what they are about will be able to sort it out pretty quickly, its not the most complex ECU in the world and it doesn't support any non stock extra features so theres no real config issues to deal with. Its also worth remembering that the tuner must be able to use the equipment they have, such as the rolling road, in order to correctly map, unfortunately there are a lot of companies out there who basically have no idea, this I discovered at my expense in pre Japspeed days. The warrantee issue is certainly there, but that will apply to most ECUs as the ones within any reasonable budget are produced in the states or Japan, frankly when it comes to customer service, I'd rather deal wih the Japanese than the Americans any day.
Quote from: "mph"Engine: Last time I was down at your garage I recall seeing your engine block in the back of a car! No doubt you'll correct me, but didn't you also port & polish the head? Such details such as this and lowering the compression, can have a big outcome on longevity. I don't know anyone prepared to go over .7bar without messing with the internals. That you're playing at a full 1bar is encouraging nevertheless, though not something I'm prepared to do on mine!
Indeed it was. Before we had Japspeed the engine was "rebuilt" by another company for me. Unfortunately they didn't know what a torque wrench was and the engine died miserable and lonely s:roll: :roll: s:roll: I rebuilt the engine myself and it has held together very well indeed, to the point where it has been running very well for about 10 months now with no reliability problems at all. It is worth noting that pre Japspeed the car only ran about 5psi and delivered a miserly 168bhp to the wheels. I also thought there where one or two cars (MR-S) out there running around the 14psi boost mark? We also have another customers car running the 2ZZ-GE engine, thats at 7psi and delivers 300bhp and 180lb/fy of torque, not entirely relevant here but check out the compression levels and more delicate head and you can see the build quality in these new engines.
Yes you got what i meant by 'shot' of nitrous. s8) 8) s8)
Thanks for your replies. Sounds like the apexi is set the same as the PE, around 6.5psi.
Your not here to drum up business, i appreciate,it's good to have you here answering some questions, and we all respect knowledge, which will hopefully reflect and send some business your way s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
There are a couple of mr-s in the USA i have read that are at, or aiming to 1bar. They are all running heavily modified internals though.No-one in the UK is, or not that are members of mr2roc.
I have found out that becuase my car is standard and import from Japan, there shouldn't be any need to tune it providing I use Super Unleaded with Octane of 95!
(95 is the recommended octane for standard mr2, see back of manual)
this will give an increase of around 12bhp
should I make any mods, then i should get it tuned and could get and extra 20 bhp on top!
If I get any knocking with it standard, i'll just reduce the 20-20 ignition map by 2 degrees!
really speaking, with my car standard, the commander will just be for info, when i make more mods, i can then get it fully tuned to the car!
**UPDATE**
Fitted it within 5 mins, found 2 tuners in the uk (only made 2 phone calls) although there is no need to get it tuned yet! I have the commander should i wish to tune anything myself. Everything is running fine with 97 octane petrol and I have noticed and increase already!!
Thanks for your help!!
Ok the GReddy stuff has arrived and is all installed and is absolutly superb a very versatile system the profec is great can be used to program the e-manage and shows all config data can display 3 measurements at once and theses 3 can be any parameter you like even with external inputs from other sensors. I also bought the PC software excellent extreamly easy to use can be used to log data analyse real time display timing injector adjustments just fantastic I would certainly recomend this system especially if you like to know how things work and like to fiddle. s:D :D s:D
DAZ400 how is emanage now in your ride?? Any problem with it??