can anyone shed any light on this
liz has had her car on the dyno to solve her drop off in power and torque and was told her boost was 10 psi and this could be causing her problem.
i had my car on the dyno a couple of months back and was told my boost was running at 5 psi s:? :? s:?
i thought that the tte turbo was set at 7 psi and could not be adjusted but it would appear that it can s:?: :?: s:?:
yeah, there's no boost controller so isn't the boost level locked to whatever PSI is needed to compress the mechanical spring on the waste gate? And of course this should be the same across all TTE kits.
and wasnt ninjinski's running at 8psi because he had his SP downpipe?!
you'll get 8psi out a system set at 7psi due to boost creep, at the mo mines set at 5psi but i've seen it touch 7psi occasionally
if it is set and not adjustable how did they reduce liz's from 10 psi to 8 psi to solve her power and torque drop off problem
i would have thought its adjustable its just that the TTE piggy back is set up for the car to be run on 7psi
if that is the case how come my boost was set at 5 psi and liz's was set at 10 psi surely it should have been set at the optimum pressure for the turbo kit .
what psi are you running s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "firepower"if it is set and not adjustable how did they reduce liz's from 10 psi to 8 psi to solve her power and torque drop off problem
He turned a metal bar which is just underneath the turbo - I don't know what its called!
maybe this is an issue you need to bring up with SP then and see why your cars are running different psi
as far as im aware im running 7psi , just like when i had it done but it wud be interesting to see if it is still running at that
the piggy back unit is the map, i.e. the fuelling, it doesn't affect the pressure of the turbo, the turbo output sense line and actuator and wastegate are the only items that can affect pressure. As far as i can see from the installation manual, the only adjustment on that is the wastegate actuator arm which is length adjustable.
Quote from: "Liz"Quote from: "firepower"if it is set and not adjustable how did they reduce liz's from 10 psi to 8 psi to solve her power and torque drop off problem
He turned a metal bar which is just underneath the turbo - I don't know what its called!
ia that the actuator?
stab in the dark
another thought we now believe that the psi is adjustable but the max psi you can run and still keep within the toyota warranty is 7 psi.
i assume that the turbo kit is supplied with the pressure already set and so when it is fitted the only way to check what pressure it is running is to put it on a dyno
could that explain why your power is a bit down firepower cus at time of dyno you were on 5psi
yes i would think so
they said at the time of the dyno run the car was running low boost
now i bet you just carnt wait to get your new exhaust and another dyno done?!
Quote from: "bossman23780"Quote from: "Liz"Quote from: "firepower"if it is set and not adjustable how did they reduce liz's from 10 psi to 8 psi to solve her power and torque drop off problem
He turned a metal bar which is just underneath the turbo - I don't know what its called!
ia that the actuator?
stab in the dark
thats the actuator arm length adjuster that i'm talking about, have a look at page 9 of the install manual (http://www.stuandele.co.uk/mr2roc/TTE_Turbo.pdf)
From the TTET install manual it looks like the actuator arm is two-piece and can be screwed/unscrewed to alter its length. This won't change the pressure at which the wastegate actuator moves, but I'm thinking you can adjust the arm to make sure the wastegate is firmly shut under resting condition and not creeping a bit.
you got it in one mate s:lol: :lol: s:lol: im chomping at the bit when i get it dynoed i may see if they can adjust the psi
s8) 8) s8) were you getting the downpipe aswell
yes s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Well he managed to adjust the PSI on mine by twiddling with the actuator arm length.
im very jealous now!!!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I've got a manual TIM gauge you're welcome to slap on for reference if you like.
Also have to consider that, although it was perishing cold at your dyno Phil, the conditions weren't as favourable to the boost brigade as they were at Silverstone. Now that we have the dyno plots from both Chris can do the correction for you based on the calibration numbers along the bottom.
Correction factor to get from wheel to fly at Silverstone was 12%. Not sure what Chris used at H'Sports - did anyone ask?
but its the difference between shut and shut a bit more tightly, either way its still shut
what if the wastegate was allowed to leak slightly? and by that i mean all the time, the output px would have to rise slightly higher to maintain the initial pressure
Quote from: "Liz"Well he managed to adjust the PSI on mine by twiddling with the actuator arm length.
Entirely feasible. I'm guessing your actuator arm was holding the wastegate very tight shut before they backed it off a bit.
Interestingly (for some!), Gas alters the stock lever length on the C2's Garrett wastegate to make it open at a different speed.
think we need Mark to look into his Corky bells Turbocharger bible, maybe that has some inspiration, i seem to remember it mentions this
Yep - break out the guru!
There is some play in those diaghram and spring actuators, so I guess there's an optimum setting between tight shut, just shut and open that'll give you the 8psi (or whatever) that you need.
Quote from: "spit"I'm thinking you can adjust the arm to make sure the wastegate is firmly shut under resting condition and not creeping a bit.
Thats exactly it matey s;) ;) s;)
The actuator rod is set to a pre agreed boost level as per the original specifications, by turning the rod the boost can be reduced/increased if there is enough tollerance to do so. I've heard 4 turns per psi quoted but cant confirm that is the same for all blower units
I took mine to turbo technics as I was suffering from boost creep and they adjusted the rod to ensure the gate was closing/opening at the right points.
Before anyone else with the TTET considers creeping up their boost - remember it would be easy to grenade the engine!
AND void your warranty, which is the point of buying the TTET s;) ;) s;)
Good point that man!! s:D :D s:D
hehe what do i turn s:D :D s:D
you're a bad man! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Just to add to this, under acceleration my boost gauge indicates a steady 7PSI but can creep up to between 8 & 9PSI, usually when I floor it in 2nd s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I had a conversation with Ste last year about installing a manual boost controller on mine, not necessarily to increase the boost but to see if it would spool up any quicker, when Ste installed his he said the spool up was noticebly quicker. I spoke to Matt at SP about this and to see if there was any way to increase the boost of the current setup. He was very non-committal and didn't want to say it could be increased but he did indicate that there was a fairly high tolerance level built into the existing TTET setup.
Thinking about it they were probably in the middle of creating the SP240 so he probably didn't want to tell us how to increase the boost for free at that time s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
turning up teh boost on any turbo is pretty easy, the results though depend on wether teh ecu can supply sufficient fuel for it, wether teh turbo efficiency range creates more power or just more heat and wether your engine can take teh levels without grenading
Maybe they set your to sp240 Liz ? s:D :D s:D a £2k knob twist oo errr
Quote from: "markiii"turning up the boost on any turbo is pretty easy, the results though depend on wether the ecu can supply sufficient fuel for it
Which is why I wouldn't want to try it without been able to monitor the AFR. Don't really want my engine going bang for a little more boost !!
Stu, if you're running a manual boost controller, shouldn't it stop creep?
I might be mistaken, but I thought that was an advantage of having one.
If I understand it correctly, it works by fooling the wastegate into thinking there is no boost until the actual boost pressure is sufficient to push the spring loaded ballbearing and send the actual pressure to the wastegate then, thus opening it.
Liz, I am glad you're getting it sorted, shouldn't SP be sorting it out though, as its only just been converted?
Thanks Nigel...good question really!! I do believe that the cars should be dyno'd before they leave with a boost check as well as a matter of course, we were all unaware of the fact that the boost can be changed so easily and if I hadn't of got the other check done and carried on driving at 10 with the leaness how it was, god knows how long my engine would of lasted?
When I went to Engine Advantages they said that it was running very very lean, they then found the boost at 10PSI, I saw the figures on the screen as well, they have turned it down to 8PSI.... just after that I swapped MAF's with Simon and went to Marks the other day and we done a WB test on it and its running ok now. Simon threw a CEL yesterday and no surprise with the P0171 and P0174 codes - running lean, so it looks as though my MAF was pooped from the start.
Its good to know what the root of your problem was Liz. Its dead handy having the 2 roadsters in the family, thats for sure.
I'm sure SP would make use of the feedback, to make certain this didn't happen again.
Quote from: "loadswine"Its good to know what the root of your problem was Liz. Its dead handy having the 2 roadsters in the family, thats for sure.
I'm sure SP would make use of the feedback, to make certain this didn't happen again.
Too right, I am having his leather seats next time he's not looking!!
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "loadswine"Stu, if you're running a manual boost controller, shouldn't it stop creep?
in theory, your right, however at the mo theres no ball bearing in my boost controller, i removed it to get minimul boost levels while the clutch was nearing death. However things like air density and other fluctuations will change the point at which the wastegate will open if the bearing was installed.
a few of our members namely simonmr2 , muffdan and leeber are booked in at sp to have the tte turbo fitted this month s:) :) s:)
it maybe a good idea for them to get their psi checked before they leave sp or at least discuss this issue with matt
I've been toying between a 2zz conversion or a TTET for ages and have been leaning towards the TTET recently. However, all this talk of the problems Liz has had plus the reports of power droping off and peoples varying boost levels etc are all starting to worry me s:( :( s:( Am I being over cautious and paranoid? I would have felt better if there had been more input from SP regarding Liz's problems plus some general reassurance to other current or prospective owners.
neither but you do have to remember that with forced induction, nothing is set in stone, too many variables, it would seem that TTE's claim is nothing more than a ball park figure of 7psi
hi steve
nothing wrong with being cautious but to put you at ease my car is running fine it is just that we believed that the psi on the tte turbo was set at 7psi and could not be adjusted. to be fair to sp i do not think the issue has been raised with them yet but i am sure it will be.
Fair point, but I think Liz has indicated that part of her issues was found to be with the maf. Not sure if Liz or any other TTE owner has spoken to SP about hte boost levels.
Liz will be the best person to answer this one.
Given SP's reputation, I would think that if there is an issue on the conversions that wants addressing they wouldn't ignore it.
Thanks for the replies so far fellas s:) :) s:) I probably am worrying too much but it's such a lot of money that I can't afford to get the decision wrong. My car runs perfectly at the moment and always has done, so as much as I'd love the extra performance the last thing I want to do is spend so much money only to end up with problems or issues which I didn't have before. Do you know what I mean?
Quote from: "SteveM"I would have felt better if there had been more input from SP regarding Liz's problems plus some general reassurance to other current or prospective owners.
I have spoken to SP about the boost issue and the reply was as quoted ( and I am not breaking confidence here, as its a fact as I am sure that this would be told to any current/prospective owner)
"The boost is pre-set and the electronics are set up to work with the factory waste gate adjustment".
but as my diagnostic proved, its not the case.
All that I would say is insist on a dyno with a boost plot before you take the car away.
I know that there was a slight problem with my car giving a little hiccup at 4500rpm, which was thought, possibly to be a VVTi issue before the turbo was fitted. This was given as the cause for the severe power drop when the car was dyno'd after the TTET was on, I did ask for a pre turbo dyno which wasn't done. As you can see from the EA dyno the power is going up still at 4500rpm, now this was after the boost was turned down and the engine would of been running richer...I summise that the poor car had too much air and not enough fuel and ran out of puff due to the 10psi , hence the sudden power drop. Does this make sense... s:? :? s:?
I am sure that your car will be fine Steve, I have had had MAF and O2 issues with mine as well which haven't helped.
Quote from: "Liz""The boost is pre-set and the electronics are set up to work with the factory waste gate adjustment".
technically true
it just assumes teh factory wastegate adjustment is spot on
The important thing is that you've got sorted eventually Liz. Something has happened somewhere between the factory and you taking delivery of your TTET that shouldn't have happened in a kit whose install instructions make no mention of needing to trim the settings. At least we're all aware of this now - sorry it had to happen to you though s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
It surprised me when breaking into this minefield of boost that gauges were at best minimal/optional and at worst entirely absent on kits, particularly when the boost setting relies on a relatively simple mechanical device. But there'y'go!
But you would presume would be checked by the instalers with their workshop gauges during initial testing.
Thats not specified in the installation schedule. I think we can all agree with hindsight that it definately should be.
Hopefully now it will be introduced as a matter of course.
Quote from: "philster_d"But you would presume would be checked by the instalers with their workshop gauges during initial testing.
No. As mentioned, the Toyota installation procedure does not require any such check/ adjustment. The adjustment is set and verified by the supplier (i.e. Garrett). It is possible something has gone wrong in their process. We're looking into this. We'll get back with further comment on this matter as soon as we can.
Hi guys & girls,
My car's due to go in on Monday for the TTET conversion so as you can imagine I've been following this thread with interest. I didn't want to post until I had something useful to say. I've emailed Matt @ SP the link to this thread so's he can have a read of it and possibly post a response. I've also just called him to let him know that this issue is being talked about.
I'm sure that most of you know Matt a lot better than I do, I've met him once and talked to him on the phone a few times in the last few weeks. My impression of SP so far has been very positive, and I get the feeling from the few times I've spoken to Matt that SP's image is very important to him as well, as you would expect. As Nigel said earlier, I can't imagine that SP would ignore it if there was an issue with the conversions.
On another note, I hope this hasn't caused any longer-term damage to your engine Liz, the fact that it didn't go bang just goes to show what a great piece of engineering the 1ZZ really is.
Oops! looks like Matt got there before I even finished typing this post, my point exactly. s:D :D s:D
Matt has called me...I am going to SP tomorrow with a view to trying to sort this out. Taking old MAF's - new MAF's etc and having a play on the dyno, will let you peeps know the outcome.
Quote from: "Liz"Matt has called me...I am going to SP tomorrow with a view to trying to sort this out. Taking old MAF's - new MAF's etc and having a play on the dyno, will let you peeps know the outcome.
That's good news Liz, both for you and any prospective owners s:) :) s:) Lets hope it's a successful day s:) :) s:)
Any news yet Liz?
Yes, I attended SP yesterday the car appears to be better and my boost issue is sorted. Matt will be posting shortly - his explanation will be better than mine for sure.
Glad it's sorted, cheers. Lee
Quote from: "Leeber"Glad it's sorted, cheers. Lee
Same here Liz s:D :D s:D
Well, I took the car in today, SP dyno'd it before starting the work just for piece of mind. The result? 132.7 HP. The car has about 1700 miles on the clock, a markiii inlet duct and TRD panel filter. I'm not sure if this is a good result or not, I'd be interested to hear what the rest of you think.
I also got stung by Mr T for a new post cat o2 sensor, as the old one did not want to come out, by the time they did finally get it out the thread was so buggered that it couldn't be re-used. Ouch!
Are they keeping the Markiii pipe on when they turbo it?
I take it you are doing stage 1 at the moment? As for the result of the dyno its only 5.3 below what is quoted by Toyota as stock so the car should be making that and I would be happy with that. Are you having the full SP or just the turbo for now, I can't remember.
With a Markiii pipe and TRD filter I'd be expecting 138-140 at least, but then again that's a very new engine and isn't even warm yet, so that's probably about right.
Matt's asked me to take the old inlet duct when I go to pick the car up. I think he was worried that the markiii duct may cause the car to run slightly lean, wasn't that part of the problem with your car?
I'm having the turbo, exhaust & decat, TTE springs, quickshift, braided brake hoses and geometry done. Pretty much the whole stage one kit, the wheels & strut brace were done when I went to test drive the SP240 last week. I'm not doing the stage 2 (although I was sorely tempted) mainly because the car's under warranty for another 2 years, also insurance seems to be difficult enough with just the stage one mods.
There's not a chance in hell the Markiii pipe will make the engine run lean with a turbo on.
Quote from: "Ekona"There's not a chance in hell the Markiii pipe will make the engine run lean with a turbo on.
Ah, Dan - you put it so much more.... politely than I would have s;) ;) s;)
Be interesting then if a dyno was done with a Lambda plot with and without the Markiii pipe.
Quote from: "Ekona"There's not a chance in hell the Markiii pipe will make the engine run lean with a turbo on.
s:flame: :flame: s:flame: eeek! don't shoot the messenger. I'm only relaying what I was told by someone who's job it is to be more knowledgeable on the subject than me.
I didn't notice a blind bit of difference when I put the duct and air filter on the new car, I did with the old SMT though so I assumed that was because it had a TTE exhaust whereas the new car is (was) stock.
Anyhow, whilst there's a warranty at stake, I ain't gonna argue with the man.
Sorry if my post came across as a bit harsh: I promise you it wasn't meant that way. Soz s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Aaron will back me up, as he knows what I mean s;) ;) s;)
I've been meaning to ask what peoples thought's were on the Markiii inlet pipe on a TTET. I'd wondered if any owners were using it and what they thought, beneficial or not? It's interesting to hear what SP think on the matter.
P.S. Liz do you know if SP are still going to post a reply about their findings on your car last week?
The worst it'll do is nothing, and the best it'll do is give you a touch more power. So much like an N/A, then. s;) ;) s;)
*EDIT* And that post makes me sound like SteveJ. I'm not doing very well at not coming across as an arse tonight, am I? s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "SteveM"P.S. Liz do you know if SP are still going to post a reply about their findings on your car last week?
Matt is meant to be, I know that he was busy though.
Dan, don't worry mate, none taken. I was just being facetious (if that's the right word) s:P :P s:P
Does anyone else use the duct with the TTET?
when will your car be ready and will matt do a dyno run and boost check after the turbo is fitted s:?: :?: s:?:
Matt must be busy getting all the bits together for my Stage II next week. s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Lee , you must be so looking forward to getting your 2 back with all the punch that it will have now. Enjoy it on the way home! Try and keep it in one piece though, I'd like to see it at some point. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "Ekona"The worst it'll do is nothing, and the best it'll do is give you a touch more power. So much like an N/A, then. s;) ;) s;)
*EDIT* And that post makes me sound like SteveJ. I'm not doing very well at not coming across as an arse tonight, am I? s:( :( s:(
steve never comes across as an arse so you have come across as an arse again s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm hoping to pick it up tomorrow a'noon. The plan is to do a post install dyno as well, should be interesting.
Nige, I am mate, I can't wait. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I've got the Markiii fitted on mine, if I remember correctly there did seem to be a small gain in power but to be honest I'd have to put the original one back on to do a proper comparison as I'd only just had it turbo'd when I fitted it.
it took a bit longer to fit my turbo i was hoping to pick up at noon the next day as well but it was early evening before it was finished , maybe sp have got quicker now but you should like the power when it is done s:D :D s:D hopefully sp will do a boost check to ensure the car is running the correct boost
Quote from: "firepower"steve never comes across as an arse
s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
*spits out drink*
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
*lewls heartily for hours*
s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
For those interested - here is my boost plot...
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Turdbabe/boostplot.jpg)
As you can see - it peaks at about 9.7 which is within the tolerances of the turbo apparently, however, it was not turned back up by Matt from where Engine Advantages turned it down.
I saw on the screen myself at EA that it was at 10PSI which would of been out of the range as per these figures below
Below is a list of the PSI tolerances for the turbo...
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Turdbabe/tolerances.jpg)
Not the 205 I was hoping for, but there you go, its an engine with 70K on it.
so is that the torque figure? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
No, as I said its the boost plot - PSI on the top of the right hand side of the graph..which people were interested in seeing - torque is on this one....
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Turdbabe/torqueplot.jpg)
so are you finally happy that every thing is back to normal now?!
and is you bhp a bit low cus i thought SP acheived higher than that and thats with th stock TTET only producing a figure in the 170's?
Quote from: "bossman23780"so are you finally happy that every thing is back to normal now?!
and is you bhp a bit low cus i thought SP acheived higher than that and thats with th stock TTET only producing a figure in the 170's?
Normal, hmmm, still not sure about that s:? :? s:? , the reason for the lower than anticipated figure, as I said above, is possibly due to the higher mileage of the engine, it is only 6.3 BHP off of 200 after all. Different day with different temperature and atmospherics who knows it could pull that.
Their car produced 197.3 HP with the decat/exhaust on it. I would say that the power is about right now you just need to enjoy it.
Quote from: "simonmr2"Their car produced 197.3 HP with the decat/exhaust on it. I would say that the power is about right now you just need to enjoy it.
Was it nearly the same figure? I will have to have a search back and see if I can find their dyno for when it had the same configuration as mine.
Edit - have found it - mine looks like it puts out a little more torque, and that is what is important!
Well where are you Leeber - still hooning around? We are all eager for the newest recruit to the TTET club and your dyno!
Hello, sorry, had to start work at 6am today, now in bed for the same tomorrow. Just a quick update for now, will post more tomorrow.
The car's back. My first impression is that it's not bad. I'm only kidding, it's great! The post install dyno showed 193.6 HP, I'm sure that'll increase as the engine loosens up a little. The torque is phenomenal, power drops off quite markedly above about 5700 rpm though. The main thing is that all the grunt is in the range where I normally drive the car anyway.
Only problem is that the car threw a CEL on the way to work this morning. Anyone near me with an OBD reader?
I am in Essex as you can see and I have a code reader, don't suppose you are up near Stansted soon? Post your dyno when you can - be interesting to see the torque curve compared to mine. Interesting though that your engine has 1700 miles and mine has 70,000 and that the power is almost identical!
I'm in Redhill, Nr J9 M25
Many congrats Lee - this must feel so different to your old stock SMT s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Enjoy matey - hope the CEL is just a blip.
Out of interest, did SP confirm the boost level for you?
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6764/dynoqs0.jpg)
Right then, this is both the before and after plots on the one graph, they didn't confirm the boost level for me but it's running fine (Except for the CEL). The before was done with the TRD panel filter and markiii inlet fitted, the after was without. Interestingly, the numbers are almost identical to yours Liz. I'll have to come to a dyno day in six months time to see how it develops. Obviously I'm hoping to get a little more power as the engine loosen's up. Matt did say that their car had done about 15k when it was dyno'd.
The blue lines are the bhp and torque after install, the red lines are the figures before.
At the moment the car is wearing the third O2 sensor from SP's car, mine didn't want to play when they were trying to remove it from the old exhaust so Matt had to order a new one. Sadly Mr T couldn't deliver it in time so Matt's had to send it on to me. I'm hoping that the CEL may be something to do with this.
Out of interest was the above plot with the Markiii pipe on or off and did they do a dyno between the pair of them?
I take it that the 3rd line down is the boost plot and the bottom one Lambda - or is it the other way around? Shame there is no scale to read off by, was you told what the boost is at?
I was editing the last post when you asked Liz, have another look now. All should become clear. s:) :) s:)
Oh yes - very clear now - thanks for that! Thought it was weird without other scales s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Leeber, if I were you I'd take the car back to SP and get a boost plot and lambda plot on the dyno. I can think of no reason why the power should drop off and then suddenly return right at the end of the rev-range unless there was an issue with the car that needed resolving.
I'm not saying that there's anything drastically wrong with the car or the install, but that's definitely not right in my eyes.
i would expect that the dyno should look like the graph that sp have on thier web site for the sp stage one turbo
Quote from: "Leeber"(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6764/dynoqs0.jpg)
are they good figures then for an SMT TTET?
(Lee sold his SMT and bought a low mileage manual bossman)
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
actually out of all the TTE cars on here who has a SMT? if anyone has?
do we know?!
sp exhaust system finally arrived today just fitted it , straight foward to fit and looks well made sounds well too should have given the car a slight bhp boost s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
DYNO! DYNO! DYNO! DYNO! DYNO! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I NO, I NO, I NO s:) :) s:)
That torque plot is totally different to mine. Yours peaks at 213 @ 4500 revs and immediately starts to drop, mine peaks at 213 @3300 revs and stays fairly constant until it starts to dip at just over 4500 revs
http://www.mr2roc.org/Repository/misc/pictures/dynoextravaganza25112006/gazz.jpg
There is also a nice constant power climb to 6500 revs with no strange dip like the other 2 - why aren't these consistant?
firstly bear in mind that no single tune runs perfectly on every car.
thats why in an ideal world you map to teh car
also Gazz has teh stock cat and TT exhaust both leeber and Liz had teh SP downpipe and backbox combo
Oh the joys of turbo. Actually looking at those plots again Gazz and Liz have fairly similar curves to redline, Liz's plot has a different scale. Leebers looks a little strange with the dip in power. In an ideal world individual mapping would be great - unfortunately not with the TTET unless you use a new piggy back like SP have with the 240.
Hmmm... looking at those plots and that on SP's website mine does seem to stand out a bit. The torque seems to be a bit low at 3500 rpm and both bhp and torque tail off a lot more dramatically at the top end. I'm wondering whether there are other factors at play here. My engine is pretty much brand new (1790 miles at install), the dyno was done straight after the install, they literally lowered the ramp, drove the car around the two roundabouts at silverstone and then reversed it onto the dyno where it was switched off and left for about 30 mins before doing the dyno run. I wonder if the ECU would have needed a little more time to adapt? Would the fact that the engine was pretty cold have made a difference? The car threw a CEL on the way to work the next day, which seems to have gone since I replaced the third (borrowed) o2 sensor with a new one. I dropped in on Stu today and he very kindly used his OBD reader to confirm that there were no unflagged faults registering (before taking me for a spin in his beast of a motor). The car's driving well so I suspect that the next dyno would probably tell a different story, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
The newness could well have an effect on the figures. ( just had a go in Stu's car as well and it IS a beast.) s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "loadswine"The newness could well have an effect on the figures. ( just had a go in Stu's car as well and it IS a beast.) s8) 8) s8)
Oh yes an engine needs to loosen up to achieve its full potential, and this can take quite a few thousand miles to say the least.
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Quote from: "loadswine"The newness could well have an effect on the figures. ( just had a go in Stu's car as well and it IS a beast.) s8) 8) s8)
Oh yes an engine needs to loosen up to achieve its full potential, and this can take quite a few thousand miles to say the least.
plus 12psi s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
god i've got to get it mapped!, still running rich
anyway isn't this a TTET thread? B.O.T.
I would also draw your attention to the permissible boost range (from the data sheet in a previous post of Liz's) - there's a fair old tolerance so a reasonable variation from curve to curve is to be expected. All dyno plots we've seen have the same general shape but the gradients do indeed vary.
As regards a follow up to Liz's car issues...
We and Toyota Motorsport GmbH have always maintained that the TTE Turbo kit is a "plug and play" system applicable to standard NA MR2 Roadster cars. The installation procedure does not specify or require dyno diagnostics of exhaust gas and/or boost pressure.
In developing bolt on upgrades (e.g. the SP exhaust system) we sought to retain the P&P characteristics. With the induction kit we discovered that the air fuel mixture was adversely affected therefore it did not meet this criteria. Because of these findings we are concerned that the Markiii inlet pipe may impact in a similar way therefore we do not recommend the use of this pipe.
In the case of Liz's car, there was a lambda sensor fault which between us we didn't do the best job of fixing!! But with the new lambda working normally the engine is running as we would expect. The AFR we saw still appears weak but we know that the reading will read low due to the 3rd lambda boss height and we suspect the Markiii inlet pipe will also have had an impact.
The bottom line? If the engine is in good order before the install then the TTET installation is completely safe with or without SP exhaust. We will however pay more attention to other accessories that may be fitted to a car when being booked for a conversion. And, to be honest, with Liz's car we jumped the gun slightly because of the information she gave us about the lambda sensor (but that's our fault not hers) so we've learnt a lesson there too!
The inlet pipe only feeds air and that is the lifeblood of the turbo. Isnt it measured by the engine (at the maf) and matched by the fueling ?
In my set up I know i want more air not less for sure.
What AFR sensor type are you using on your prototyping and diagnostic runs ?
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"In developing bolt on upgrades (e.g. the SP exhaust system) we sought to retain the P&P characteristics. With the induction kit we discovered that the air fuel mixture was adversely affected therefore it did not meet this criteria. Because of these findings we are concerned that the Markiii inlet pipe may impact in a similar way therefore we do not recommend the use of this pipe.
Hi Matt
That is a strong statement to make with regard to the Markiii inlet pipe, I think you need to clarify what you mean, is this for all cars including N/A or are you just talking TTE turbo'd cars.
You must also remember that TRD sell the same up-grade for the 2, at a considerable cost s:shock: :shock: s:shock: so that would indicate that this is a worth while modification.
I would aggree with Phil the more air available to compress the less the turbo has to work to get the same performance. Not that I'm any expert or in fact I'm interested in putting a turbo on my car.
This is just a observation which I would be interested to hear your response on.
Thanks
Rob
what I don't quite follow is that the turbo will provide boost levels consistent with what teh wastegate is setup for.
it can't under or overboost as a result of less/more restriction in teh inlet tract.
so if teh kit is set up for 7psi and it only runs 7psi due to teh wastegate, how can it then run lean due to induction changes? As teh fuel MAP will still be capable of giving enough fuel?
totally agree with both points...
more air = only wastegate pressure anyway, MAF records all air passing it anyway.
how does that cause the car to run lean?
Quote from: "bossman23780"are they good figures then for an SMT TTET?
There's no reason why they should be any different - it is the same basic engine in there. The main difference is the addition of a leprechaun to work the gears.
ISTR that the TTE demonstrator that featured at the last JAE at Billing Aquadrome was an SMT. I don't recall ever seeing a dyno plot for it though.
Quote from: "perry190"totally agree with both points...
more air = only wastegate pressure anyway, MAF records all air passing it anyway.
how does that cause the car to run lean?
I guess if teh MAF was reading more air than teh injectors could fuel for, or more than teh fuel MAP in teh ECU has been programmed for the hypothetically this coudl result.
however as teh Turbo has fuel MAPs and injectors that can cope with 7PSI I don't see how it can be an issue eitehr on or off boost?
realy curious to see the reasoning behind this?
Quote from: "perry190"totally agree with both points...
more air = only wastegate pressure anyway, MAF records all air passing it anyway.
how does that cause the car to run lean?
If this holds true though, wouldn't that suggest that there's absolutely no benefit fom having the duct fitted anyway?
Just to play devil's advocate.
commenting on your comment to Perry comment only here.
if teh MAF sees more air it adds more fuel, and hence more power.
Quote from: "Leeber"If this holds true though, wouldn't that suggest that there's absolutely no benefit fom having the duct fitted anyway?
Just to play devil's advocate.
possibly not with the TTE set up. but on the pother hand, we are saying that opening up the air flow wont adversly affect anything as 'more air the better'
in regards to the TTE set up then possibly there may not be any added value due to the wastegate being at such a low boost, but in NA form it should be advantagious. But likewise I cant see how having that extra flow would cause the car to run lean (TTE set up)
now im more confused than ever s:? :? s:?
does it work or doesnt it ?
although i believe what SP are saying and carnt see a reason for them lying, maybe a more detailed answer on this issue is required! or is it the fact that SP are playing it safe with how the car operates with a induction kit?!
SP would have to play it straight down the line with the TTE kit,as its Toyota sanctioned and carries their warranty, I would have thought.
I wonder how much extra air or boost has to be run for the standard injectors to max out. If the gas flow is altered with a non standard exhaust, would that throw a spanner in the works in a similar way?
too take the last points from Bossman and Nigel.
I don't think anyone is accusing SP of lying, far from it.
However as pretty knowledgeable enthusiasts we often debate points of contention until we fully understand teh point, I think we are all very interested in further clarification of anything that expands our knowledge. We simply need a litlle mre convincing than your average bunch s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ref "The Official Line"
I agree, there is what TTE would say, however the SP240 is a huge change so SP are obviously not shy about "improving things" it's liek any mod not factory sanctioned if you choose to do it you may invalidate yoru warranty, however practice is anotehr matter entirely.
Quote from: "loadswine"I wonder how much extra air or boost has to be run for the standard injectors to max out.
I suppose the high end of the "permissible boost range" that the spec. sheet refers to gives some indication? .... but we don't know just how hard the injectors are being worked at that level or arguably if its the injectors/duty cycle that have determined this ceiling figure.
I think we'd expect TTE to have left a bit of latitude above the spec'd. figure for safety too.
Surely all anyone is doing by changing the standard plastic piping to the markii metal pipe is allowing the air to flow slightly better through the original system. It uses the original MAF positioning afterall.
The TTE uses the original air system and original MAF position, so using a Markii pipe or the original TRD one with a better filter should only improve the TTET performance (within the tolerance range we know exists in this plug and play system - ie every car will be slightly different, some better than others - some with better air flow - some with better exhausts, different waste gates etc) we are seeing some TTET hitting 200HP.
Now SP's induction system used a new shaped system with a new MAF position to an after market air filter which threw cels (ie beyond the tolerance levels the plug n play ecu could handle), 2 completely different systems really.
Shoot me down in flames if this is totally wrong
( However as pretty knowledgeable enthusiasts we often debate points of contention until we fully understand the point,)
as markiii said
that is exactly it this is a discussion forum and all we are trying to do is to understand all the relevent points raised by throwing other issues in to the discussion and questioning them and hopefully getting the answers s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "bossman23780"although i believe what SP are saying and carnt see a reason for them lying
sorry guys! probably the wrong choce of word used there s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Ok, my knowledge in this area is a little flaky, so I'm perfectly happy to admit that my logic may be totally flawed. However, I thought that all the wastegate does is modulate between open and closed to maintain the predetermined boost pressure in the inlet manifold/duct. If the pressure is above 7 psi, the wastegate opens to allow more exhaust gas to bypass the the turbine which slows down, thereby reducing the compressor speed and hence the pressure in the inlet duct. If the pressure is too low then the wastegate closes, diverting more gas through the turbine which then speeds up. If this is true, surely the nature of the intake, upstream of the point at which the boost pressure is monitored (the MAF I presume) is totally irrelevant (within reason). It should, in theory, be compensated for by the position of the wastegate, as long as it's not in the fully open or fully closed state. If the air is allowed to flow more freely by the use of a less restrictive intake, then the wastegate will be allowing slightly more of the exhaust gases to bypass the turbine, which will not be working quite so hard. The net result would be no performance gain at all, in fact I guess that taken to the extreme, it could increase turbo lag slightly.
Sorry if this sounds like an egg-sucking lesson, it's really not meant to be, I'm no engineer (as I'm reminded on a daily basis by individuals far more intelligent than me).
All meant in the spirit of healthy debate of course. s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "Leeber"If the pressure is above 7 psi, the wastegate opens to allow more exhaust gas to bypass the the turbine which slows down, thereby reducing the compressor speed and hence the pressure in the inlet duct. If the pressure is too low then the wastegate closes,
that would be my understanding of it as well so if my turbo is running at 5psi does that me that the spring in the wastegate is weak or that it is just set up wrong s:? :? s:?
I'm guessing the latter, but that's only assuming that my understanding of the system is correct which is by no means a given. I'm hoping that someone with more knowledge than me is kind enough to set me straight.
I'm guessing too .... but if the actuator on the turbo is pressure-checked before despatch from the factory and its working well (most probable IMO), then its possible that your actuator arm length is allowing for a bit of leak at the wastegate, and this is preventing a full snort to 7psi+.
What only came to light late on in the proceedings was that the actuator arm length is adjustable on the TTET .... its just not something that features as a required mod during the install procedure.
So, I reckon with the appropriate monitoring you can get this problem resolved if you so wish Phil - and still be within the tolerances set by TTET to keep your warranty nicely intact.
Quote from: "spit"I'm guessing too .... but if the actuator on the turbo is pressure-checked before despatch from the factory and its working well (most probable IMO), then its possible that your actuator arm length is allowing for a bit of leak at the wastegate, and this is preventing a full snort to 7psi+.
What only came to light late on in the proceedings was that the actuator arm length is adjustable on the TTET .... its just not something that features as a required mod during the install procedure.
So, I reckon with the appropriate monitoring you can get this problem resolved if you so wish Phil - and still be within the tolerances set by TTET to keep your warranty nicely intact.
hmm me thinks I should dig out my contacts at TTE and see what they think about teh actuator arm discussion
We're all guessing to an extent. The TTE electronics are completely unknown in terms of what their parameters and limits are. Based on our findings, we suspect that the electronics have a limited amount of fuel, for given conditions, that will be allowed (either limited by programming or limited by the physical limits of the fuelling hardware - we encountered the latter early in the development of the 240 upgrade). Therefore, we suspect that if you put more air in, the electronics are not necessarily capable of adding sufficient fuel to get a good AFR.
We don't know for sure and the official line from TTE is that as long as your car is standard (i.e. the basis of the TTET) then there are no problems. Furthermore, we are satisfied that the SP exhaust system does not adversely affect the TTET hence its introduction. Conversely we were not satisfied that the induction kit so we have not introduced it. If someone else is offering an upgrade for a TTET car then it is their responsibility to prove that it is suitable or to accept the consequences if it is not - this is the commercial reality of the system (although I think it's fair to say that Markiii's pipe is not strictly a commercial product so he should be exempt s:D :D s:D ).
Regarding "actuator rod adjustment", we don't really want TTE to get involved in this debate cause this is a sure fire way of invalidating someone's warranty!
Enjoying the debate... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Matt,
thanks for that but you still haven't clarified why you feel the markii pipe can cause things to run lean?
as a number of us seem to be struggling with teh physics of how a turbo with a boost limit can flow more air with or without one I'd love to hear your thoughts?
as a reminder guys, I have always stated that no evidence of performance exists in "any" circumstances
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Enjoying the debate... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
So much so that I've duplicated my post... s:? :? s:?
There must be something in it Mark or TRD would not have brought out there expensive replacement. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Rob.
Quote from: "markiii"thanks for that but you still haven't clarified why you feel the markii pipe can cause things to run lean?
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Based on our findings...we suspect that if you put more air in, the electronics are not necessarily capable of adding sufficient fuel to get a good AFR.
If you put more air in and the electronics/ hardware can't keep up then it will run lean. It's only a suspicion though!
Quote from: "FGRob"There must be something in it Mark or TRD would not have brought out there expensive replacement. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Rob.
For a normally aspirated car that has injectors working at a capacity well below that of a turbo'd car.
Has anyone done a back-to-back before and after (all other things remaining equal) dyno for the Markiii pipe? This would help understand the NA condition.
Matt
Are you talking purely turbo'd cars or are you saying this applies to N/A as well?
you beat me to it mate s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
you would think the electronics would have a fair amount of "give" though. Driving at different speeds and at different air temperatures will give rise to more/less air flow (obviously)
With a markiii pipe you're surely just tricking the system into thinking you're travelling at 70mph when you're doing 65 for example. Surely running lean wont happen till you reach the electronic limits, which i guess will be set towards 100mph+..??
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Quote from: "markiii"thanks for that but you still haven't clarified why you feel the markii pipe can cause things to run lean?
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Based on our findings...we suspect that if you put more air in, the electronics are not necessarily capable of adding sufficient fuel to get a good AFR.
If you put more air in and the electronics/ hardware can't keep up then it will run lean. It's only a suspicion though!
now see I agree with your statement generally
however how can a turboed car flow more air under boost than teh wastegate spring is set for?
If you placed a big enough restriction on teh inlet I can see psi being reduced (it would have to be big mind you)
but you could run with no air filter and it still shouldn't be able to make more psi than the wastegate is set for,
or are we missing something?
Quote from: "northernalex"Driving at different speeds and at different air temperatures will give rise to more/less air flow...With a markiii pipe you're surely just tricking the system into thinking you're travelling at 70mph when you're doing 65 for example. Surely running lean wont happen till you reach the electronic limits, which i guess will be set towards 100mph+..??
The ram air effect is negligible, the main influence of air induction is the throttle position and RPM, hence you might run into this condition only when you're at full load (e.g. when you're on a dyno).
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Quote from: "northernalex"Driving at different speeds and at different air temperatures will give rise to more/less air flow...With a markiii pipe you're surely just tricking the system into thinking you're travelling at 70mph when you're doing 65 for example. Surely running lean wont happen till you reach the electronic limits, which i guess will be set towards 100mph+..??
The ram air effect is negligible, the main influence of air induction is the throttle position and RPM, hence you might run into this condition only when you're at full load (e.g. when you're on a dyno).
So you're saying the air flow into the engine is constant (to the first approximation) no matter what the air temperature/car speed?
Quote from: "markiii"however how can a turboed car flow more air under boost than the wastegate spring is set for?
My thinking is this: If you operate a vacuum cleaner (the motor creating a vacuum to a given level determined by the limit of the motor - this is the same effect as the induction vacuum created by the turbo). Which size of nozzle you put on the end will determine the amount of air that actually flows... if you block it ,the vacuum (i.e. pressure, albeit negative) will not change, but the air flow will. Same principle in reverse.
Quote from: "northernalex"So you're saying the air flow into the engine is constant (to the first approximation) no matter what the air temperature/car speed?
I'm saying that at full throttle (the point at which AFR becomes critical, we think) the air flow can be significantly increased (beyond what the electronics might be able to accomodate) by a change to the induction pipe.
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"I'm saying that at full throttle (the point at which AFR becomes critical, we think) the air flow can be significantly increased (beyond what the electronics might be able to accomodate) by a change to the induction pipe.
Fair point... wonder if TRD thought about this when they made their pipe that the markiii is copied from?
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"Quote from: "markiii"however how can a turboed car flow more air under boost than the wastegate spring is set for?
My thinking is this: If you operate a vacuum cleaner (the motor creating a vacuum to a given level determined by the limit of the motor - this is the same effect as the induction vacuum created by the turbo). Which size of nozzle you put on the end will determine the amount of air that actually flows... if you block it ,the vacuum (i.e. pressure, albeit negative) will not change, but the air flow will. Same principle in reverse.
But a vacuum cleaner doesn't have a wastegate, which is the centre of this discussion s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Ekona"But a vacuum cleaner doesn't have a wastegate, which is the centre of this discussion s;) ;) s;)
True, but, whatever the limiting factor (wastegate, motor running out of chuff) the max pressure/ vacuum is the max pressure/ vacuum. What happens to the air flow at a given pressure is the point we're trying to understand - the difference between air flow and air pressure.
Okay, to look at this from a different point of view...
Toyota like safe things: That's why their engines are so bulletproof, as they've got a huge amount of headroom to play with. Now going on that theory, I can't see TTE producing a turbo kit (and especially one that is intended to be fitted to a 100K mile X-reg as well as a 100 mile 06-reg) that doesn't have the same safety overheads built into it. Now considering that the Markiii pipe is essentially a tiny little addition to the amount of air it can allow the engine to take in, I can't believe for one second that it's enough to push an engine in dangerously lean territory.
Now, if the wastegate was set at the wrong end of 10psi (which, as we've seen, is possible), then and only then could that little bit of extra air be enough to cause lean AFRs, especially if the wastegate is slightly stiff.
Quote from: "Ekona"Now considering that the Markiii pipe is essentially a tiny little addition to the amount of air it can allow the engine to take in, I can't believe for one second that it's enough to push an engine in dangerously lean territory.
You may be right, although I reckon the effect of the pipe on a turbo car is greater than you might imagine, but it's not our (or TTE's) responsibility to prove/ disprove its operation. Our findings simply "indicate" that it may affect AFR adversely so we don't recommend it. I'd like to emphasise that we don't have our own alternative that we DO recommend - quite the opposite (no one's impying this, but just in case... s:D :D s:D )
Quote from: "Ekona"Now, if the wastegate was set at the wrong end of 10psi (which, as we've seen, is possible)...
The max permissible boost pressure is 9.72psi - which I don't think we've seen exceeded ?
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"True, but, whatever the limiting factor (wastegate, motor running out of chuff) the max pressure/ vacuum is the max pressure/ vacuum. What happens to the air flow at a given pressure is the point we're trying to understand - the difference between air flow and air pressure.
There is a giant problem with your analogy, though - mainly that the intake system of a turbocharged car engine is
nothing like a vacuum cleaner. The volumes of air we're talking about are far, far greater, the relative pressures are
infinitely higher and - perhaps most importantly - the car engine has by far it's greatest restriction on the high pressure side (the valves - which are pretty small by comparison to the intake size, not to mention most of them are closed at any one instant.)
A vacuum cleaner, on the other hand, has a very low volume motor that can't actually generate very much positive pressure at all on the high pressure side - and doesn't have an enormous restriction there (unless you never change your hoover bag, of course.)
Now, on to the issue at hand.. Comparing the intake system of a naturally aspirated car to that of a turbocharged car is like comparing chalk and cheese;
On the N/A car you have an engine that only ingests air because the cylinder moves down, creating a relative negative pressure in the intake tract and relies on atmospheric pressure to push air in. Atmospheric pressure being comparatively weak, especially when you consider that the cylinder will be nowhere near a vacuum (which would give you a maximum theoretical relative pressure of ~14psi at an 'average' sea-level air pressure.)
On a turbocharged car, on the other hand, we have a (relatively speaking)
huge air pump between the air intake and the cylinders. The dynamics of the engine haven't changed - the valve ports are still comparatively small compared to the air intake, and the intake runners provide reasonably terrible flow characteristics compared to a nice smooth 3" diameter pipe (ok, 2.75" or thereabouts if memory serves).
Now the amount of air that can pass through the intake runners and valve ports
at any given pressure - as far as I can see - will not change (the flow characteristics of those ports will always be the same).
Then consider the fact that the turbo - the air pump - employs the actuator and wastegate setup to regulate the pressure it is able to pressurise the intake tract to.
If the restriction in the runners & valve ports does not change, and the pressure in the high side of the intake tract does not change - how can the engine ingest more air if something on the low pressure side changes? As long as the intake tract does not change
so radically that the wastegate is no longer able to regulate the pressure the turbo is producing, I can't see the volume of ingested air changing.
Yes, it is possible to alter the LP side of the intake so radically that the wastegate can no longer regulate the intake pressure - either such a huge restriction that it simply cannot suck enough air to pressurise the tract faster than the cylinders swallow air (you'll see a drop in intake pressure), or you had a restriction that was removed and now you have boost creep because the wastegate port isn't large enough to bypass enough exhaust gas..
But either way you are going to see a change in intake pressure..
Personally speaking I very much doubt that replacing the restricted inlet elbow with a straight pipe will make enough difference to achieve that - unless the boost pressure is already right on the limits of fuelling (and received wisdom on past cars I've worked on would suggest that TTE would probably build 2psi headroom or so on top of whatever they publish as the max figure - so we're talking about a system already running out of spec, most likely).
In fact, we've got record of dyno runs on NA cars with
no airfilter at all and no elbow (if memory serves) that showed no increase in power.
I know I said earlier that you can't compare N/A to turbo - but on an N/A intake tract changes should have a
bigger effect, so I think that comparison is valid.
Of course, TTE didn't see fit to include a boost guage in their kit (which I'm afraid I still maintain is pure
insanity), so we are unable to tell for sure if the markiii pipe changes intake pressure - but I'd say if it does then the SP exhaust would probably make for even bigger boost creep, and you'd have seen a CEL far before you got to fitting your intake..
Now - having said all that - there is one way I can see why a cone filter would cause a CEL without it being an airflow volume issue - and that's turbulence. It's quite possible that the stock MAF 'hood' just isn't designed for direct airflow at the kind of volumes that a turbokit will see at ~10psi, and you suddenly lose MAF resolution..
I can't see the markiii pipe causing that problem, however, as there's a ruddy great panel filter and airbox in the way, along with a 90deg bend to the MAF, so the chances of having any laminar flow at the point of the MAF are pretty slim.
Assuming the markii inlet pipe doesn't max out the injectors or electronics where boost is at its standard amount, am I right in thinking that the slightly improved airflow will lessen the stress on the compressor and produce a bit more torque? If fuelling is critical , then I am assuming that the concern is that the afr will become too lean.
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"If you put more air in and the electronics/ hardware can't keep up then it will run lean. It's only a suspicion though!
ok then is it necessary to change the stock injectors?!
what are the max capibilites of them?!
Quote from: "loadswine"Assuming the markii inlet pipe doesn't max out the injectors or electronics where boost is at its standard amount, am I right in thinking that the slightly improved airflow will lessen the stress on the compressor and produce a bit more torque? If fuelling is critical , then I am assuming that the concern is that the afr will become too lean.
I need to read arrons post at least anotehr twoce before commenting on that, but Nigel I'd agree with you though I'm not sure about Torque gains.
Quote from: "bossman23780"Quote from: "Silverstone Performance"If you put more air in and the electronics/ hardware can't keep up then it will run lean. It's only a suspicion though!
ok then is it necessary to change the stock injectors?!
what are the max capibilites of them?!
now you r getting into teh realm of needing to remap teh whole system, but you can;t because it's a sealed box of tricks.
Hence why teh SP240 uses bigger injectors and a piggyback of teh piggyback, from memory
ok then would it be possible to then take the TTE piggyback away from the box of tricks which is causing alot of the issues with extra power and basically rework the whole system?!
or is that a minefield
Entirely possible..
But then you might as well have saved a couple of grand and bought a C2 kit instead s;) ;) s;)
true! ..
.. but i didnt know that excisted back then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "bossman23780"true! ..
.. but i didnt know that excisted back then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
There is that s:) :) s:)
The only fun I can imagine you would have would be wiring - there must be a sub-loom for the TTE which you'd have to find and remove, but that should be reasonably straightforward (I can't see them replacing the entire EFI loom somehow)..
After that it's a case of fit the engine management of your choice, injectors of your choice and get it mapped..
It
might be necessary to change the MAF pipe - personally if I was going that route I'd be tempted to move the MAF post-compressor and mount it in the smaller diameter pipe a la Hass/C2 to get the benefit of accurate air temperature measurement.
now youve got me thinking aaron s:? :? s:?
i mean i like the TTET and i think what SP is doing is great, but you will always be limited by the piggyback and ive never liked the thought of that, it just seems to restrict the avenues you COULD go down!
what type of company could provide this service! THOR or maybe Rouge?
Quote from: "bossman23780"now youve got me thinking aaron s:? :? s:?
i mean i like the TTET and i think what SP is doing is great, but you will always be limited by the piggyback and ive never liked the thought of that, it just seems to restrict the avenues you COULD go down!
what type of company could provide this service! THOR or maybe Rouge?
We don't piggyback the piggyback (we tried but it wasn't particularly successful). If you want a custom upgrade we can give it to you (just as Thor etc, but we've got a lot more experience with uprating the TTET) but be prepared to sign a disclaimer or dig a bit deeper!
what no club discount? .. wheres the loyalty s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ok then, so youre prepared to give the custom upgrade, so like ive mentioned with the throttle body to you recently, would you be prepared to up the boost along with a few engine internals as mentioned previously to try and safe gaurd the upgrade?
Quote from: "bossman23780"what no club discount? .. wheres the loyalty s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ok then, so youre prepared to give the custom upgrade, so like ive mentioned with the throttle body to you recently, would you be prepared to up the boost along with a few engine internals as mentioned previously to try and safe gaurd the upgrade?
We can do pretty much anything, we should talk it through over the phone, or you could call in - there are too many permutations to run through here... and I'm getting tired, and I've not been onto Pistonheads yet... s:( :( s:(
Go to bed Matt s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
but yeah, like ive said to you the car does need a service so popping it in with you is best and then we can disscuss the options? its just finding the time to come down
Quote from: "Leeber"Matt's asked me to take the old inlet duct when I go to pick the car up. I think he was worried that the markiii duct may cause the car to run slightly lean, wasn't that part of the problem with your car?
It seems to me that a perfect opportunity was missed when Leeber had his turbo fitted to do a comparison dyno, including a Lambda plot, between stock duct and the Markiii duct and this wasn't taken...you have got to ask why?
You're right Liz, that occurred to me too. Given the heated debate on this topic, Matt was kind enough to do the before and after dyno's free of charge, purely to set my mind at rest. I think it would have been taking the p*ss to ask for another run. Also, it was getting late, I wanted to get home for an 0430 wake-up the next day and the SP boys were probably desperate to get home to their families too. I'll try and get along to a dyno day, maybe we can do it then.
I don't think it would of been a case of taking the piss, I would of thought that SP would of wanted to do it!
Quote from: "Liz"I don't think it would of been a case of taking the p*ss, I would of thought that SP would of wanted to do it!
I'm don't see why, they don't sell the duct so it's not really in their interest to prove/disprove it's effectiveness. The standard duct is what should be fitted from a warranty point of view anyway.
I guess you could argue that TRD should foot the bill on this one, if they want to sell their £250 version to turbo owners. Even then, as TRD are not TTE (I'm not really sure what the relationship there is) it's use could still raise warranty issues.
Ouch! s:? :? s:? Its just that Matt said to me that if I would of had both my ducts that they would of run a comparison dyno out of interest to SP.
I believe that the before and after dynos should be done as a matter of course anyway to ensure in the first place the engine is ok to take the turbo and afterwards to ensure that all is running ok..
Quote from: "Leeber"The standard duct is what should be fitted from a warranty point of view anyway.
I think thats the point on this one really, if you go for the TTE kit its probably for the warranty (cant see why else you would?) so you really need to be stock other than the parts the kit changes I would have thought?
just my opinion s:) :) s:)
ps i'll sort he pics for you later today Liz s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Leeber"as TRD are not TTE (I'm not really sure what the relationship there is) it's use could still raise warranty issues.
from what i understand these two companies do recognise each other as part of toyota group and i belive relations are getting better between them, so you would have thought that there shouldnt be any issues of warrenty, but i have no doubt that TTE would still say with the turbo kit been designed without that in mind there would be warrenty issuse
but its like with SP's exhaust system, i belive the only reason you can get away with this is because firstly TTE did devlop the turbo with a downpipe in mind at sme stage of the devlopment process and i looked under my contract with TTE for the turbo kit at it states clearly that the system will work with any perfmance exhaust
Quote from: "bossman23780"TTE did devlop the turbo with a downpipe in mind at sme stage of the devlopment process
Really? Where does it say that?
Quote from: "bossman23780"[.....under my contract with TTE for the turbo kit at it states clearly that the system will work with any perfmance exhaust
Contract?
Quote from: "Liz"Quote from: "bossman23780"[.....under my contract with TTE for the turbo kit at it states clearly that the system will work with any perfmance exhaust
Contract?
yeah half is in german and the other half is in english, did you not get this?! it has the TUV stamp on it
Quote from: "bossman23780"Quote from: "Liz"Quote from: "bossman23780"[.....under my contract with TTE for the turbo kit at it states clearly that the system will work with any perfmance exhaust
Contract?
yeah half is in german and the other half is in english, did you not get this?! it has the TUV stamp on it
I think my - Contract? - post answers that!
Why would you have a 'contract' from TTE anyway? It's SP who you entered into a contract with, not TTE.
Quote from: "Ekona"Why would you have a 'contract' from TTE anyway? It's SP who you entered into a contract with, not TTE.
no!! s:? :? s:?
remember, i got mine done in germany, before SP got theres done
Ah yeah, forgot 'bout that. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
That would explain why you have a contract and Liz doesn't. The Germans need TUV approval certificates to be legally able to have the TTET, hence the certificate/contract.
Thanks for explaining that!
Quote from: "Ekona"Quote from: "bossman23780"TTE did devlop the turbo with a downpipe in mind at sme stage of the devlopment process
Really? Where does it say that?
knew i had read this somewhere! and its on this forum! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
go on to the articlre page Essen motorshow report 2003
then
MR2-ROC meets TTE http://www.mr2roc.org/subdreamer/index.phb?categoryid=9&p2_articleid=38"
it mentions a decat pipe there and also mentions the duct that has caused a debate it looks like they changed the pipe originally aswell!
Hmm, indeed - from the article..
"On the inlet side, the first item replaced is the pipe that goes between the airbox and the wheel arch tube. Rather than the very small plastic tube that is normally there a full size flex connects the two. All that Gerald could say was that the original could be there for sound and possibly low-end torque, though there was no discernable difference with the much larger pipe in place. With the turbo in place however, replacing the original pipe with the much larger one was essential."[/color]
Be interesting to talk to Gerald again to ask about this in particular - they developed it and made the about comment and then didn't include it in the kit?
interesting read isnt it!
but if you read the article they were going to make two versions but obviously this was on the version that never made it?!
wonder what SP make of this article, i wonder if they knew of the two versions
*EDIT Liz beat me to it, but I'll leave my comment here
There you have it, folks. Okay, so it was a development kit, but they insisted at that stage that you need a Markiii pipe or similar for the turbo. I'm guessing that the design of the kit didn't change that much that suddenly a larger diameter pipe made the kit run dangerously lean, considering they were also considering making a higher-power version of the kit.
Been a long time since I read it, thanks for reminding us of it...interesting about the oil as well...but thats another discussion for another thread!
Quote from: "bossman23780"interesting read isnt it!
but if you read the article they were going to make two versions but obviously this was on the version that never made it?!
That was the low power version of the kit i.e. the one you have!
makes me laugh s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
weve had such a big disscusion on it! and it was on here all that time anyways s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
makes you think though what else they tried that never got mentioned?!
Quote from: "Ekona"That was the low power version of the kit i.e. the one you have!
now ive definitly got to get a custom setup done on this, make it what it couldve been or what it should be!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "bossman23780"makes me laugh s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
weve had such a big disscusion on it! and it was on here all that time anyways s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
makes you think though what else they tried that never got mentioned?!
We must all have bad memories s:? :? s:? As you say all this constructive discussion and TTE had posted info previously on it s:? :? s:? That obviously now proves that changing that 'bit of plastic' does more good than harm. Is someone going to contact them about why this was not included in the final kit s:?: :?: s:?:
nah I new it was there all along, teh reason I didn't mention it was because I wasn't trying to prove a point one way or teh other, just elicit the reasoning behind Matts comments.
As for why t never made teh final version of teh kit, we still don't know I suspect it was uneccessary at 7psi of boost. i.e teh stock tube can flow enough air, or it was a noise issue as alluded to be Gerald.
One other point, the downpipe refered to is in the kit already, it just links the Precat back to teh main cat, teh TTE was never designed to run without a main cat as it would fail TUV approval.
and yes SP are aware of the contents of teh article because Matt and I discussed it at length when we first met up.
Quote from: "Liz"Ouch! s:? :? s:? Its just that Matt said to me that if I would of had both my ducts that they would of run a comparison dyno out of interest to SP.
I believe that the before and after dynos should be done as a matter of course anyway to ensure in the first place the engine is ok to take the turbo and afterwards to ensure that all is running ok..
Sorry Liz, I didn't mean to sound so abrupt. s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I grovel humbly before you s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: I was called in from standby as I posted, hence the lack of a reply/post edit until now.
That article does make interesting reading though, I've just bought 8 litres of Mobil 0w40 from Costco. s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:? :? s:?
There's also a nice little snippet in there about the clutch. My 2000 mile clutch has started slipping, even when I gun it in 6th (could that explain the dyno reading?) and it seems to be getting worse by the day.
They would of been able to tell on the dyno if it was slipping, they did on my Porker even though it felt alright to me, my dyno did reflect that though, but not with a dip - the power curve was nice and smooth.
Quote from: "Liz"They would of been able to tell on the dyno if it was slipping, they did on my Porker even though it felt alright to me, my dyno did reflect that though, but not with a dip - the power curve was nice and smooth.
You should see a steeper curve on a graph with a slipping clutch - the slipping clutch effectively becomes a torque magnifier.
Quote from: "markiii"One other point, the downpipe refered to is in the kit already, it just links the Precat back to the main cat, the TTE was never designed to run without a main cat as it would fail TUV approval.
so i wonder how they got that extra power then, because they mention 200?!
If you're referring to the TTE kit in the Essen report, they were planning on releasing a more aggressive map to boost power.
there were 2 maps 180 and 200
only the 180 was sanctioned for release
now i understand! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
if only they could have sanctioned the 200 then with extra bits added like a down pipe it could have be pushing even higher! shame!
200 would have been pretty close to teh limits of teh injectors so add all teh exhaust and induction mods on and you'd have been in teh same place SP were with teh 240
i.e needing bigger injectors and teh ability to remap it to cope
i suppose, but if you'd ignore the induction side and just changed the exhaust an DP then i think i would have been happy with that, and i dont think it would have need a remap?
just fitted a boost gauge and been for a blast , when the car was dynoed at hyper sports i was told the car was running low boost 0.3 bar i think they said.
my boost gauge is hitting 0.6/0.7 bar when i floor it and the only thing i have changed is the standard exhaust for the sp dp and back box could this have made the difference or is my gauge faulty s:?: :?: s:?:
Some gauges might be out a bit, but 100% difference to the dyno reading? I'd be very surprised unless the gauge came from Disneyland!
Possible kink in the boost gauge line? Or was the gauge not reading right on the dyno at HS?
I'd heard there was a figure of 5psi linked to your kit, but didn't realise that came from HS. They tapped into your boost line when we weren't looking? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Could you possibly get a higher boost peak if you gun it on the roads in a lower gear? Just guessing mate. Know nowt 'bout turbos & dynos s:? :? s:?
Possibly, I know my old car used to peak at just over 10psi in 1st gear at the redline, and then hold 9.5-9.7psi during regular use, but then that was with the Profec acting as a boost controller: I don't know about regular wastegate pressures.
If you don't have adequate boost control then you should see the highest pressures in the higher gears - when the load on the engine is highest.
Quote from: "markiii"As for why t never made the final version of the kit, we still don't know I suspect it was uneccessary at 7psi of boost. i.e the stock tube can flow enough air
In that case the bigger pipe will do nothing at all for any NA car then as air flow is already sufficient, likewise with an apexi or the likes? (plus of course an open filter loses the CAI effect of the closed oem system
Quote from: "markiii"or it was a noise issue as alluded to be Gerald.
my mate who worked at toyota told me this when I bought my first roadster, he said the restriction was there to change the noise due to restrictions in some countries apparently.
my car has no pipe s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Seems to go ok but I should imagine I'm sucking in some seriously hot air though.
Quote from: "muffdan"my car has no pipe s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Seems to go ok but I should imagine I'm sucking in some seriously hot air though.
I'll give you the standard pipe free of charge if you want it, all you have to pay is postage s;) ;) s;)
thanks Richie, although after following this thread I think I might go for one of Markii's pipes! Seems the turbo will benefit from it.
When you go SP Stage II the air box goes in the bin to be replaced by a induction kit so there is no where to put the Mark iii pipe.
excellent.
This confirms my belief that the missing pipe is infact a sign that my car wants the SP240 package.
I'll just have to tell my wife that it's not good for my engine to be driving around with a missing pipe, and that I need to the SP240 to fix as soon as possible. s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "Silverstone Performance".....The max permissible boost pressure is 9.72psi - which I don't think we've seen exceeded ?
You have now.....
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5605/boostgaugebh2.jpg)
By my calculations that's 10.15 psi I'm running!
Quote from: "Matt"Quote from: "Silverstone Performance".....The max permissible boost pressure is 9.72psi - which I don't think we've seen exceeded ?
You have now.....
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5605/boostgaugebh2.jpg)
By my calculations that's 10.15 psi I'm running!
thats reading 0.71 which would make it 10.44PSI s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Google makes 71kPa = 10.30psi (10.2976794) s;) ;) s;)
s:D :D s:D
Simon
that'll be based on 0.7 then Simon s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
70kPa = 10.1526416PSI
Gotta Love Google conversions!
Simon
Quote from: "kanujunkie".....thats reading 0.71 which would make it 10.44PSI s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Even worse!
Car's running like a dream though.... I'll mention it next time I'm up at SP.
Careful its not running lean - mine was when it was boosting like that! Glad to see you finally got that boost gauge plumbed in though!
Quote from: "Liz".....Glad to see you finally got that boost gauge plumbed in though!
Yeah, sat under the bed collecting dust for 10 months!
Quote from: "Liz"Careful its not running lean - mine was when it was boosting like that! Glad to see you finally got that boost gauge plumbed in though!
should be fine Liz, TTE is MAP based mapping
just a thought , if the tte turbo uses a piggy back ecu could this be mapped to give more performance or do sp do the best map available s:?: :?: s:?: if this can be done could explain why my dyno at hypersports only give 173bhp as sp did not seem to map my car when the turbo was fitted .
I thought that the ECU was sealed by TTE in order that it could not be tampered with? The SP240 on the other hand has a different ECU which CAN be tuned!
it prob is liz just me thinking , i would like to increase the bhp a little bit as when my car was dyno'd at hypersport it was 173 bhp and other tte turbo's give nearer 200 bhp like yours liz .
TTE ECU is sealed and non-tunable, however the turbos do seem to get fitted with varying levels of boost - IIRC Liz was close to 10psi, perhaps yours is lower. Obviously the TTE ECU will have a limited range for which it can accurately fuel - as will the rest of the fuelling system, so you can't just turn up the boost unless you know you are within those limits..
Don't forget that others may have the detcat pipe in place, which will free up a reasonable amount of horsepower, and/or different exhaust options which will all perform differently.
Hmm, it does seem strange - you have the same set up as me, the Turbo - the exhaust and the downpipe, I have a Markiii pipe as well which I am told that I should not have s:roll: :roll: s:roll: and the TRD air filter - when did you have yours dyno'd?
Quote from: "aaronjb"Don't forget that others may have the detcat pipe in place, which will free up a reasonable amount of horsepower, and/or different exhaust options which will all perform differently.
According to his signature he has the decat pipe.
Oops, Aaron did not read signature s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Aaron has the dumb, this morning.
Is it not true tho that Dyno's are vastly inaccurate and that they are affected by a wide variety of conditions such as air temperature, atmospheric pressure, calibration? Also, if a car is dyno'ed on one machine it can give greatly different readings to another machine if the s ttings aren't corrected between machines?
Hasn't it been said in the past that certain mappers of unichip seem to give much better bhp numbers after a tune than others, and that this has been put down to their machine reading high rather than a better tune. As we all know anyway peak bhp isn't all that important in the grand scale of things a straight flat torque curve being much more useful.
Phil
i had the dyno done before the decat pipe was fitted so perhaps my bhp would now be higher s:D :D s:D and also as evileye says different dyno's can give different readings , the car still feels very quick when on boost and is running fine but as always as you get used to the performance you feel like you want more so perhaps i should have it dyno'd again to see what the numbers are now before going for a upgaded ecu or remap or larger injectors .
i would not mind increasing the bhp to around 220bhp or so but do not think i could justify spending £2000 on the car for that increase and i would not wish to risk the reliability of the engine by going to high
It isn't so much the power output that the internals don't like, it's the torque. If you want to acheive a higher output you're going to have to go for bigger injectors and a different ECU. Depending what you're boost pressure currently is, a cheap way to get more power could be just to go for a boost controller. I know Liz had problems with her higher boost pressure, but when I had the TTE and the SP240, it was running at 8.8 PSI with no problems.
Jason
thanks for the advice but how long could the engine cope with running 8.8 psi boost and have there been any reliability problems with the sp 240s s:?: :?: s:?: that anyone knows of , i sound like a chicken don't i s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
8.8 is well below what TTE specified as the maximum PSI.
SP have ran their car for 20k I believe, and its been driven hard for those 20k. For the Elise SPT package, they wanted to know the same thing as you as TTE/Toyota/Lotus wouldn't be guaranteeing the engine or kit on an Elise and they'd have to provide the warantee themselves. They stripped their engine down and measured the wear and tear on the internals. After everything was checked, Matt said (and I quote): "It was a waste of time". Now they're shipping Elises with 250bhp conversions based on the TTET/SP240 package but with a bigger intercooler.
So basically, stock internals aren't a problem up to 240lb/ft torque.
Jason
sounds good to me then , but stripping down the engine was not a waste of time if they can now honestly say that the internals can cope with higher boost pressure and the other sp 240 upgrade's s:D :D s:D
Reliability wise, I did have a cracked pipe on the TTE precat where it joined the turbo. That significantly reduced power (by about 25bhp) until it was fixed. Might be worth checking yours.
Jason
fitted a boost controller and terrified myself s:scared: :scared: s:scared: it was nothing to do with the cars performance but while setting it up the boost gauge went round to 1 bar S**t took my foot of the pedal immediately and drove slowly listening for any strange noises that would signify impending doom for my engine s:( :( s:( everything seems ok and the car is running fine s:) :) s:) as for the boost controller i don't know if it has given the car any more performance but i can now easily adjust the boost with it but i will not be cranking it up to much
And you've got what controlling the fuelling? Forgive me for not reading back (8 pages is too much for me this time of night s;) ;) s;) ), but I don't think you're running any kind of piggyback at all (not including the TTE one), so I really wouldn't suggest putting the boost up at all: In fact, I'd remove it to make sure you can never overboost, just in case.
Dan's right, the TTE kit runs on MAP based fuelling, go over the end of that fuelling map and your in unknown territory, litterally for the fuelling, dependant on the way it works, it may just keep the maps highest duty cycle for the fuelling and then the overpressure cause a lean situation, or it may just cut out, to be honest i'm not sure how the TTE works on this score, want to risk it either way?
14PSI is high but shouldn't damage your engine over such a short period (a second or two right?)! You'll have ran very lean for a moment. Could you hear it knocking?
The maximum pressure the TTE piggy-back is mapped to deal with is 9.7PSI
If your turbo from the factory is running under this, then you can use your boost controller to raise and achieve up to 9.7PSI. I'd map it a little under to account for boost spikes. My controller records maximum boost achieved so you can easily tweak the pressure to keep the spike peak below your chosen threshold.
Even if you don't increase boost pressure with the controller, you can simply use it to hold the waste gate FULLY closed until you hit your desired boost pressure. This will massively reduce lag (but increase boost spiking). A good controller will cycle the solenoid to reduce the spikes whilst keeping the reduced lag gains. It can take a few runs to tweak this to get it right though.
Jason
thanks for the advice folks at the moment the boost is set at 0.65 bar which is what the turbo was boosting to before i fitted the mbc , i do not intend to increase the boost any more but can reduce it a little if needed .
i thought the mbc would just transfered the adjustment of the boost from the actuator rod to the mbc , but i can easily return to stock set up if the mbc will cause engine trouble , the reason for posting this reply was to get feed back from others who know more than me so thanks again for your help s:D :D s:D
A MBC can't reduce the boost. The minimum boost is achieved by the spring holding the waste gate closed.
Running at .65 bar is about right. If I were you I'd simply set the controller to the same pressure and just use it to reduce your lag, not that there's much anyway with the TTET!
Jason
I don't believe an MBC can reduce lag you need an EBC for that
With a decent ball/spring valve I'm not sure about that: I noticed quite a difference at the stock wastegate setting. Whether and why an EBC's solenoid would have a different effect again, I dunno.
Quote from: "markiii"I don't believe an MBC can reduce lag you need an EBC for that
The waste gate will crack open below the Set PSI, with an MBC you can keep it fully closed up to the required PSI. It definitely made a difference to my lag. It should also reduce the boost threshold a tad too.
Jason
You'll need to set it slightly below the required boot level though, else you risk it spiking and over-boosting.
Quote from: "muffdan"Quote from: "markiii"I don't believe an MBC can reduce lag you need an EBC for that
The waste gate will crack open below the Set PSI, with an MBC you can keep it fully closed up to the required PSI. It definitely made a difference to my lag. It should also reduce the boost threshold a tad too.
Jason
my understanding was that an MBC worked by bleeding sufficient pressure to fool the wastegate hence it alwyas sees some (the wastegate is always opening a bit, it;s not an off switch)
an EBC will allow you to completely keep teh wastegate shut as it sees zero psi until a preset point