OK, my 2 is just 2.5 years old with 23,000km on the clock. (Used daily, fairly hard, but only for short distances.)
I have the TTE lowered springs and TTE anti-roll bars, else all is standard.
For the last couple of months I have noticed the ABS 'kicking' in much more frequently. Over the last few weeks I have had a couple of emergency stop situations and the ABS has come on all the time - giving heart-stopping moments!!
I have tested the brakes on a straight road as follows:
30km - emergency stop: ABS immediately kicks in with very poor stopping.
70km - emergency stop: initially good stopping and then ABS resulting in overall poor stopping.
110km - firm stop: ABS does not kick in. Good firm stop, but way short of emergency situation.
OK tyres: Goodyear F1's (one year old - 10,000km)
Tyre pressures: I've tried lowering and increasing them without much difference. Currently 26 / 31psi (Which is my favourite setting. I even bought a Michelin digital tyre pressure gauge (which is amazing) to keep an eye on the pressures.)
Visual Inspection:
Brake Pads: Fronts look OK, with about 8-9mm of pad left
Rear Pads: Ok 10mm plus
Disks: OK, a bit of a shock; the fronts are black - almost a gun metal finish over the whole pad contact surface. The rears are less so - and actually slightly streaky. No rust though or pitting. Another observation is that after a short drive, simply touching the front disks with your finger burns - they are red hot and in fact they seem to spit with any moisture!
I will take some pictures and will post them below.
Incidentally, I have just spoken to Toyota, over the phone, and they just say that the summer roads are greasy and it is normal. (Maybe I should add that I live on a Greek island. We haven't had rain for two months and the average daytime temp is just below 40c - I'm now ducking from cover from those of you living in the UK!)
Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks very much.
Nathan
I've just uploaded some photos:
http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2
The first 4 photos are of the front. The last 3 the rear.
If the discs are hot when you haven't been braking then it's likely your calipers are binding (sticking) on - that'll cause the discs to 'blue' (which it also sounds like yours have) and the pads to glaze..
Although that wouldn't cause the ABS to kick in s:? :? s:?
But they definitely shouldn't be that hot unless you've just emergency stopped, jumped out, and stuck your finger on them...
thanks aaron. surely sticking (binding) would be noticeable and cause heavy steering or drag to one side? I haven't noticed anything like that.
Getting worse, so have booked her in to be checked. Toyota simply say it is the roads/sun/heat and nothing wrong with the car!
nathan
Could well just be dust / dirt on the sensors? I'd try removing the sensors, cleaning up their faces and replacing them - that may help.
Nathan, if you want to check on whether they are binding, jack up the front wheels after a drive and see if the wheel revolves freely.
The dust thing might be a good idea to check, as I know how dusty it must be in Corfu at the moment which will only add to the dust from the brakes anyway.
How are the roads out there also? as going over bumps and ruts can set the ABS off when the brakes are applied.
Your dealer does seem to be pretty reasonable from your past descriptions, so they should be able to sort it out for you mate.
Yammas! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Had her checked this afternoon by our local dealer. They now say the pads need changing. (I only have 23km on the clock and they look like they have loads of meat on them, but it's worth a try.) Have booked her in for Thursday to have pads replaced. Will report back on the results.
a bit off topic, I assume you are Nathan from Taverna Agni? If so, hope you are having a good year and may see you next year (visited 2005 and 2006 but didn't make it this year). For anyone who doesn't know and is in Corfu - this restaurant in my opinion is the best in Corfu. Hope you don't mind the plug and remember me for a discount next year s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Back on topic, hope your car is sorted and the new pads work.
Neil.
PS where are the straight roads on Corfu s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "Agni"I've just uploaded some photos:
http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2
The first 4 photos are of the front. The last 3 the rear.
OOPS! silly me, I see you already did a bit of a plug with the website link. Missed that earlier s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Just back from Toyota!
The mechanic test drove the car and agreed with me that there is a problem. He gave the system a good check. Pads were fine. No obvious problems could be found. I suggested that the pads are changed to at least discount them. He agreed.
Re-tested the car. This time, while stopping, he actually hit the back of another car! (OK only a light tap and no damage done - it was a local priest, but it did prove that the problem was still there!)
The brakes are now worse than before. Even light braking causes the ABS to kick in. The car is not driveable.
They have a brake specialist, who is currently on holiday and will return next Monday, who will take a look. Till then I'll keep the car on the drive.
If anyone has any ideas I would be very greatful.
Nathan
PS Neil: Thanks for your kind comments. Hope you visit again - you'll be welcome to drive my 2 while you are here. Incidentally, was it you that left an MR2 club cap for me last year?
Jeeez, that sounds bad! seems like the ABS is kicking in MUCH to early. Not sure what would cause this, but I hope they sort it out for you. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
OK, took her in again on Friday.
After some test driving, they say nothing is wrong and blame it on the weather as we have not had rain since May, so the roads are very greasy. They gave me a 'Auris' to drive so I could compare. The braking felt about the same and ABS came on in the same manor.
Having owned my 2 for three years (from new). The braking has always been amazing and even in an emergency, the car has stopped without any problem - no hint of ABS unless on a wet or gritty road.
The forecast is for rain next week - so I'll test it once the roads dry up!
Nathan
Ok, problem still not solved. Toyota say nothing wrong, they have looked at it 3 times now and although helpful/sympathetic say it's me.
Yet, recently while in Crete, I rented a Boxster S. Drove it hard for a few days and covered 800km, not once did I get the ABS to kick in.
The MR2 is getting worse and this morning - on my way to work - it kicked in 5 times. (The office is less than 5km from home!)
My 3rd year service is coming up, but I do not expect Toyota to do any more. I visited my tyre dealer, who fitted the Goodyear F1s. He recons I should choose a softer one. (Just maybe our hot Greek summers have had an effect on the tyres?) They are now two years old (covered 20,000km) but hardly look used. For Christmas I thought I would try changing them - even though they do not need it.
So, what choice of tyres that are really soft? I don't have a problem to change them every 10,000km as I do not do much driving.
Cheers
Nathan
Quote from: "Agni"Just back from Toyota!
PS Neil: Thanks for your kind comments. Hope you visit again - you'll be welcome to drive my 2 while you are here. Incidentally, was it you that left an MR2 club cap for me last year?
Nathan
Missed this comment in August, very kind of you to offer the 2 for a spin, but I would be worried about any bumps on those sticky out olive tree roots!
We have actually booked a villa through your website (villa Emilios) and are over there for 2 weeks early May so will see you at the taverna and will say hello. ( I think my son played with your kids or one of your colleagues/families kids last time we were there (Tom and Dikti?).
Sorry to go off topic and I hope you have some joy with your brakes and if you get them fixed you could always take me for a quick spin if you have a spare hour!!
See you then
Neil
PS
Not me who left the cap, you must have had other visitors from the club!
Hi Nathan
A few thoughts and questions:
Firstly, what tyre sizes are you running front and rear?
I assume you have checked that you have not got any defective or blown dampers / shock absorbers?
Did you change anything on the car just before the problem started?
Are you able to tell if it only one wheel that locks or is it the fronts or rears or just any of them any time?
Things that can cause ABS to cut in fall into two groups, reduced grip levels or brake system problems. Grip levels can decrease if suspension geometry is out, shock absorbers are worn or blown (oil leaking down from the tops, which given the dusty environment may be worth a check under the dust gaiters) and the obvious tyre pressures.
The braking system can suffer electrical problems which could confuse the ABS into triggering (if the rolling radii of the tyres are significantly different to stock it can cause an imbalance front to rear and cause the ABS into thinking that one axle is turning faster than the other, thus indicating to the system that it is time to apply ABS to the slower axle).
The brake discs can suffer surface pick up that will make them grab instead of applying consistent and proportional force to your pedal pressure. The brake servo may have become intermittent. Here you may notice that you have to press the pedal harder to stop than you did before the problem, then all of a sudden, you get much more stopping as the servo takes effect, thus potentially causing the ABS to trigger (is it a vacuum servo on these cars?)
Just a few ideas really. How is stopping distance compared to other cars or compared to before the problems?
Chris
All else I can think is to check the tyres? Apparently there have been dodgy F1s made in the far east somewhere which have AWFUL grip.
Ok, thanks for messages.
Tyre sizes are standard, bought and fitted at the same time:
195/50/15R
215/40/16R (extra Load ones with stiffer sidewalls.)
Pics here:http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2
They are now two years old. They have Made in Germany printed on them
Tyre pressures - I tend to prefer a little more pressure than standard and go for 26psi front and 32psi rear. I have tried varying the front pressures without noticing any improvement.
Kilometer age: Although 3 years old, I only have 27,000km on the clock. (hangs head in shame: but it's a small island I live on and difficult to do any long runs!)
ChrisGB: No recent changes. I fitted TTE Springs and TTE Rollbars around the time of the new tyres. I haven't inspected the shocks but certainly no oil leaks noticed on the drive. (Will take a look tomorrow, at the shocks, in the daylight.)
The car brakes evenly (certainly no pulling to one side, even if not holding the wheel.)
When I first had the problem, I got Toyota to replace the pads - even though the old ones looked hardly warn.
I have now mounted a video camera in the car, so keep watching this space for some footage!
PS Neil, I thought you knew, all our villas are rented with the MR2 included:
http://www.agni.gr/travel/enquiries/Car_Rental_and_Hire/index.asp
Just pop by the office, when you are here, and you can take the car for the day. Yammas!
Hi Nathan!
I can confirm that 27k kilometres is pretty good on an island where the roads are a bit tight and twisty, plus Corfu isn't a massive island either.
Sorry to hear that the braking troubles are continuing mate.
I'm not sure if the Toyota technicians understand the finer points of the braking system. Going over bumps with the brakes applied can set the ABS off with very little braking effort.
After they changed the pads, did the condition improve at all.
I can't help wondering whether this is suspension related, exacerbated by the bumpy roads and mixed surfaces you get on Corfu. But they've checked the suspension I guess.
Mmmm, a bit of head scratching s:? :? s:? , baffles me as well, if they've looked and can't find anything at all.
OK, I promise never to do this again! I've made a very short video of my braking!
http://www.agni.gr/Travel/Enquiries/MR2/index.asp
Yammas!
Nathan
Hey, I did say it was a short film!
In the first braking test, the car is clearly running over a very poor surface and I would expect the ABS to cut in. Second test is harder to tell what is going on. Does the problem occur if you brake on a very smooth even surface?
Chris
I'd agree with Chris on the surface issue, it could be that the roads are just in need of a bit of TLC, but I also know that not everywhere on the island is like that. It is a fairly challenging environment for a braking system, dust , heat and uneven surfaces.
The car sounds really nice though Nathan. s:) :) s:)
Actually that road is one of our better ones!
The road is fine. (Looks poor in the video, the edges were recently dug up to install ADSL phone cables, but otherwise a smooth surface.) Even on better (smoother) roads, braking is the same. Don't forget the problem is recent. (OK the last 6 months or so.) Previously, getting the ABS to ever kick in, was only if you were on a wet road or using way to much peddle pressure or sometimes if braking hard into a corner and a small 'bump' in the road causes lose of traction resulting a single 'engage' of the ABS.
I'll find a better road and record a couple of other stops, to see what you think.
Cheers
I've just looked at your photo's you posted originally s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
I had the same blueing or at least a band on the front disc's after a heavy session at Rockingham track - very fast with heavy braking, my brakes after this were not so good and in the end I changed the whole lot to EBC, the only thing I didn't need to change was the fluid, because I was running DOT 5.1 - what are you running? as it been changed, I know it's basic but certanily worth considering.
The other point is your comments about it getting worse, which indicates something is failing, if it was staying the same then you could put it down to say maybe the road conditions - so what could it be - well of the top of my head I would say, now I've seen your video of the roads, your shocks are probably on the way out, remember you have lowered your car on stock shocks, although Toyota do this it as been said a few times that the shocks can wear quicker - I could be wrong though s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Looking at the state of your roads and the speed you drive I should imagine your shocks would only last about the third of the life of a standard car - this is not a criticism by the way just an observation s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Apart from the visual check it's difficult to tell if the shocks have gone or not, there is the obvious bounce test to see how quickly it settles, if there is a lot of wear then the car will bounce a few times before settling, but if it is only minor then it will be very difficult to pick up - you could always ask Toyota to check them.
Here in the UK the roads are a little better s:shock: :shock: s:shock: and the chances of putting the shocks under the same pressure are a lot less and there for we don't have so much of a problem.
I should imagine it's like driving the RAC rally on a weekly basis. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Any way it's just a thought, I could be completely wrong but at least it's a start in an alternative direction.
Rob.
OK, tried the 'bounce test'. To be honest, the springs are so hard it's difficult to get them to move at all - let alone look for a bounce!
One thing I omitted to tell you, is that recently - in an effort to try to help the situation - I ordered and fitted LMCorse: chassis brace, plus upper and lower front ones. Although it really improved the car's stiffness, it made no difference to my braking problem.
She booked in for her 3rd year service next week. I'll ask their advice on shocks. I'm still prepared to change the tyres though to something much softer. Any advice on which to choose would be welcome.
Nathan
Thanks guys, an update:
Went to local tyre fitter (I trust him, as he was the only person who I went to that immediately knew that the front were smaller than the rears!) and mentioned about the shocks. He tested them with a few good 'shoves' down on the bonnet and declared them perfect - a single bounce.
OK continued on to Toyota dealer for my 3rd year service:http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19539
During the service, discussed (again) with chief mechanic Yannis (he knows his stuff) about my braking problems. We noted - with all the wheels removed that the front discs are black and glazed looking! The rears less so - as expected, but the front nothing like I would normally expect a disc to look like (all shinny and polished). Yannis puts it down to the low mileage (km) that I do - about 10,00-km per year, but don't let that fool you. Our small island has no motorways. I could only dream of using 6th gear! Although I do less mileage than most, our twisty roads mean than I use my brakes much more than a member who sits on the motorway all day. Testament to this, when I first had braking problems (6 months ago) I immediately changed the front pads. Today, while inspected the rears I was surprised to see that they only had about half their meat left (unusual as I expect the rears to hardly ware.)
Anyway. The discussion go to tyres. Yannis found a tyre density meter (never seen one before) - basically it looked like a tyre pressure guage - but had a small spike (needle) that you pushed into the tyre tread. The meter went from 0 to 100. My tyres registered 90 - that's hard. A nearby Auris 70, a toyota pickup 65 and a brand new Land Crusier (that was being 'blinged' with 10 grands worth of extras including all round DVD screens!) had 55.
OK, it seems that my Good Year F1's are way too hard. Before I change the discs, I will change the tyres, but need your help in choosing the softest tyre I can find for our rims...............
While the Goodyears are quite hard tyres, they are grippy as long as they're not made in the far east, don't let a density reading suggest otherwise.
I think those brake discs are the bit to look at really. Not using them enough would just cause a build up of surface rust AFAIK. The blackness concerns me somewhat as I only know of that happening when the brakes are binding.
I don't know the origin of your F1s nathan, but the ones on my other car are brilliant and have lots of grip, certainly better than the Bridgestone RE050s that were on it before, and a lot quieter. The Toyos are pretty soft, I think, but not sure what makes you have readily available.
Have you noticed any change in the grip the Goodyears give in the wet at all?
Did yannis make any comment on the black colouration on the disc?
Not sure why they should be glazing unless something is sticking.
I know you have higher ambient temperatures than here, but didn't think that would be responsible.
Mmm, perplexing! s:? :? s:?
Strange about my F1's. To be honest, I notice very little difference in the wet compared to the dry! The handling of the car seems to be deteriorating too with slipping round corners all too offen. I wonder if the hot summer - into the 40s, we have recently had, masked the problem with the tyres as them were always warm. The current cooler winter days do not let the tyres to warm up, and hence show the problem.
OK, still on the hunt for new softer tyres and also think I will replace the discs.
Having used the search (hey I'm a good boy) have found that many members recommend these:
m http://www.brakes4u.co.uk/products.asp?id=16383 (http://www.brakes4u.co.uk/products.asp?id=16383) m
(I would go for the Dimpled and Slotted Sport Discs - it is Christmas after all!)
Will the stock calipers and pads work with the above?
I supopose while I am changing the discs, I may as well add these:
m http://www.brakes4u.co.uk/products.asp?id=18039 (http://www.brakes4u.co.uk/products.asp?id=18039) m
Anything else you recommend?
Nathan
If the brakes are binding (especially the rear ones) that would affect the handling in corners too.
I don't think it is a binding issue. The braking is even (and braking firmly while not holding the steering wheel still results in a straight line.)
#Yesterday, while the car was up in the air and with the wheels on, I gave each a spin. No drag or binding at all.
I am convinced it is a tyre issue. Maybe my F1's are not the really thing (it is common in Greece to get fake items) and if I have actually got a cheap version rather than the much converted German ones?
I think though, while I am changing things, I will order new discs and brake lines. For the price of them (I don't think too excessive) and the peace of mind, I am sure they will be worth it. I've always loved the 2 for its handling and great stopping - the reason I choose it in the first place and will do anything to get it back to this.
Nathan
With all those things, you should manage to nail the problem Nathan.
The tyres could be bogus , I guess, but they've been on a while and I would have thought you'd have had problems before with them.
Grooved discs are supposed to ward off glazing, so that may help, though you will probably get through a set of pads a little quicker than before.
They don't feel different, least mine don't. s:) :) s:)
OK, have just ordered some Toyo Proxes. They should be here in 2 days. (Cost 400 Euros - Ok it's Greece nad things are more expensive - but if it help cure my problems, then well worth it.) Still planning the disks upgrade and will order them very soon.
Nathan
Only just spotted this thread (mainly because i'm a scarce visitor to these shores over the past 4 months - thanks work!). I have the same problem, thankfully nothing like as bad, but on an 2004 model with under 30k miles I've had a fair few instances like you describe, normally in slightly damp conditions. The fronts lock up stupidly easy and it massively increases my braking distance. Scrared me a few times to the point where it would be nice to have an emergency OFF button for the ABS s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Seriously, when it's happened to me I'd have expected a 25 year old Fiesta with knackered rolling stock to pull up sharper and I'm quite convinced it's not the tyres overcoming grip, rather it's the ABS playing silly buggers. As it's only happened a few times I'm not too fussed but it's interesting to see I'm not the only one.
I'm running standard RE040's and it's done it on worn and fairly new tyres but only from about 2 years old - is it the terrible twos???? lol. Oddly, it's not done it for a good few weeks (odd considering the slippy road surfaces) and as said, it's mildy moist (as TG would put it) conditions when it's the worst.
Good luck with the new tyres.
Just another thought, have either of you tried pulling the ABS fuse and seeing if it is improved.
My ABS is occasionally fooled by a bump or ripple under braking (happened tonight on way home) but this also happens in other cars I own as well. The harder suspension of the MR2 does seem to make it worse once it triggers.
Chris
At last! Someone who know what I am going through! This braking problem is really ruining my enjoyment of the car. Yesterday I nearly crashed. 1km from home, it was wet and I was driving so slowly that I was trailing traffic (not easy on our roads). Slowly (40km) down a gentle hill and started braking for a sharp bend. ABS immediately on. I came off the peddle and gently re-applied. The same. I repeated this 4 or 5 times. I only just slowed enough for the bend. It was frightening.
Proeliator2001: interesting that you too have low mileage. That's the reason that Toyota gives me. They suggest slotted disks (drilled) as these keep the pads cleaner.
Chris: I didn't realise you could just remove a fuse to disable the ABS! Is it really that easy?
Chris: When hitting a small bump, when braking firmly for a corner, the ABS will usually trigger, but only once. The problem I have is not an occasional ABS, but full on, only stopping when I release the peddle.
Just checked the fuse box cover, but cannot identify which fuse is for the ABS
Quote from: "Agni"Chris: I didn't realise you could just remove a fuse to disable the ABS! Is it really that easy?
be careful doing this, the ABS ECU supplies the speed signal to the power steering and the guages
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Quote from: "Agni"Chris: I didn't realise you could just remove a fuse to disable the ABS! Is it really that easy?
be careful doing this, the ABS ECU supplies the speed signal to the power steering and the guages
Sorry, should have made it clear that is should only be done as a test, remove fuse, drive in straight line over bumps and test brakes, re-insert fuse before driving on again.
When my car (cars) do it, there is only an occasional problem and it is most often when the damping has lost wheel control a little on surfaces that cause wheel patter. If you are seeing the problem regularly, I still think the number 1 suspect is the dampers. If you remove the ABS fuse and the car allows the wheel to lock or partially lock at the same braking forces, the ABS is working fine and you need to have a closer look at dampers.
Obviously, I have not driven the car, but from what you describe, it would be my train of investigation.
Chris
I see, thanks for the warning. Which fuse is it. Non of the fuse labels have any indication that they are ABS related.
Fuse box under the bonnet, middle fuse of the top three:
(http://zion.mind-design.co.uk/roadster/abs_fuse.gif)
is ABS2 fuse in there as well, i cant remember
ABS2 fuse? what does that mean, one for the front and one for the rears?
That's the only ABS fuse I could find in the BGB..
look at the wiring diagrams, theres 2 fuses
Damn - I had to go scouring it again.. all your fault s:P :P s:P
The second ABS fuse is in the same fuse box (front compartment) - it's the sixth fuse down.
Ah hell, have a diagram:
(http://zion.mind-design.co.uk/roadster/absfuse_2.gif)
ABS1 is the middle fuse of the top three, ABS2 is the 40A fuse bottom right.
Looking at the wiring diagrams - pulling those two fuses will only stop the ABS actuating (you're pulling power from the ABS solenoid and ABS motor) - power to the ABS ECU itself comes from fuse ECU-IG, and I can't guarantee that isn't connected to other things as well as the ABS ECU.
i'm going to have a sheer stab in the dark here and theorise that were going to find that the ABS1 fuse does control the ABS ECU and not the ECU-IG fuse. However i'm willing to bet that the speed signal for the guages is supplied by the power from the ECU-IG fuse. i'll give it a test and see
I'm not sure about that - look at the wiring diagrams and ABS1 & ABS2 only go to the switch side of (what is depicted as) a relay.. not into the main ECU connector.
doh! your right, so the only way to totally disable it with no warnings but to still keep the speed signal functioning would be to pull the 2 fuses and to cut the output from the ABS ECU block B pin 11. That would leave the ABS ECU functioning but disable the actuator and it can complain all it wants but it wont matter, nobody would be listening
Yep - although I do wonder - if those two fuses (ABS1 and 2) are supplying power to what appear to be the actual ABS actuators (they're listed as 'solenoid' and 'motor'), removing power to those should leave you in fail-safe non-ABS mode.
Not that I want to be the first to try it, but..
I'll let Nathan do that.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s;) ;) s;)
no ABS sounds great to me personally, i personally think its about as much use as a dead dog on the 2, not that ABS is useless, just that the 2's ABS is so hyper sensative that it fires when you go over a small pothole and is verging on the dangerous in itself IMHO
Strange - mine hardly ever comes on.. Only if I'm trying really, really hard - standing on the brakes and hitting a metal grating, for example..
Odd that the occasional times mine comes on are when I am not trying hard. Monday's triggering was on the approach to a junction over very broken surfaces and as wheel control was temporarily lost in wheel patter, the ABS kicked in,When I am properly on it, the abs very rarely triggers at all. It even smokes the tyres if I give it a really hard stop.
Still reckon I would prefer the car without it to be honest.
Chris
ditto on mine, the annoying part is that this then increases your stopping distance and i've almost had a couple of accidents in the past because of it s:( :( s:(
hence why i'd rather do without the ABS
Mine does that too, I just learned to break much earlier and be more progressive.
I found the key to getting the early ABS intervention to let the car brake heavily again is to get fully off the pedal than then back on it again. The problem is once wheel patter kicks in, it can sort of keep resonating with the ABS sometimes, leading to the experience a few of us have noticed.
Since going to the harder springs and damping, the problem occurs less often and lasts for less time before sorting itself out. I reiterate that this happens on other cars too, but due to the flexible nature of the MR2 shell, you notice the wheel control problems more.
Chris
tell you what i'll try removing the fuses when i'm on track next which is the 26th, safest place to do it i reckon, i'll then do a couple of less agressive laps and see what happens and report back
Quote from: "kanujunkie"tell you what i'll try removing the fuses when i'm on track next which is the 26th, safest place to do it i reckon, i'll then do a couple of less agressive laps and see what happens and report back
Good idea Stu s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"tell you what i'll try removing the fuses when i'm on track next which is the 26th, safest place to do it i reckon, i'll then do a couple of less agressive laps and see what happens and report back
The only potential problem I can see to this is losing power steering scaling. It may end up too light, or it may end up with no assistance. If the latter, there is the possibility of having the gearing taking all the steering load instead of being hydraulically assisted which may stress the rack gears.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"The only potential problem I can see to this is losing power steering scaling.
If Stu pulls the two fuses we mentioned earlier (ABS1 & 2) then why would he lose the PS scaling? The ABS ECU will still have power and be operating as normal - the only things without power will be the actual actuators inside the ABS module.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The only potential problem I can see to this is losing power steering scaling.
If Stu pulls the two fuses we mentioned earlier (ABS1 & 2) then why would he lose the PS scaling? The ABS ECU will still have power and be operating as normal - the only things without power will be the actual actuators inside the ABS module.
Makes sense. Got to be worth a try. For anyone thinking of this for the road, take a moment to consider potential insurance complications in the event of an incident.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"For anyone thinking of this for the road, take a moment to consider potential insurance complications in the event of an incident.
Oh yes, I could see an insurance company nailing someone to the wall over it..
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The only potential problem I can see to this is losing power steering scaling.
If Stu pulls the two fuses we mentioned earlier (ABS1 & 2) then why would he lose the PS scaling? The ABS ECU will still have power and be operating as normal - the only things without power will be the actual actuators inside the ABS module.
I would agree with this Aaron s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The only potential problem I can see to this is losing power steering scaling.
If Stu pulls the two fuses we mentioned earlier (ABS1 & 2) then why would he lose the PS scaling? The ABS ECU will still have power and be operating as normal - the only things without power will be the actual actuators inside the ABS module.
Makes sense. Got to be worth a try. For anyone thinking of this for the road, take a moment to consider potential insurance complications in the event of an incident.
Chris
I think that's why Stu said he will try whilst on a track. Some cars don't run with ABS so I cannot see this to be a issue as the brakes will still function.
if logic plays any part in all this though then we should be looking at the theory of what would happen if the pump failed, its exactly the same thing, you couldn't have cars crashing on the road just because a pump or a fuse failed, that would be stupid
Oh I've no doubt you won't crash - the brakes will work as per non ABS brakes.. (Actually that's only true of modern Bosch ABS units - original Bendix units had a pressure accumulator, and if that blew you had.. no brakes!)
But the insurance angle would be - you've modified something that was standard fitment.. and it would be fairly easy to tell (the big, solid, black lines would give it away s;) ;) s;) )..
Maybe we're (Chris and I s;) ;) s;) ) just overly paranoid - but you know insurance companies will step over their own mothers to avoid paying out...
i only really want the ABS disabled on track so pulling 2 fuses is good enough and then re-instate them for road use
OK, left work early - before it got dark. No cars about.
Pulled out the first fuse. Started her up. ABS light stayed on.
Drove until about 30km per hour. Hit the brakes hard - no ABS. Fronts (and rears) locked up and I skidded to a stop (pulling to the left). Tested a few times with the same result. Jumped out and checked the psi of my front tyres - they were at 29psi and 24.5psi. Set both to 24.5psi.
Tested the brakes several times on the way home. Once balancing psi o the tyres, braking was more even but certainly not perfect.
Difficult to comment on any effect to the power steering as my max speed was less than 70kmph, but it did feel slightly lighter at speed.
OK concerning my braking problem: The car stops very similar to when the ABS was working! I can deduce that the ABS is fine. The tyres slide rather than grip, with no screeching. I am now sure that the tyres are at fault (although I haven't ruled out the discs)
My Toyo's have arrived and I will be fitting them on Monday.
Nathan
well no great surprise that the ABS light stayed on or that slamming the brakes on hard will now lock em up with no ABS.
as for your little problem mate, i think were looking at a case that these ABS units are wildly different in their abilities on car to car, and then you add in us chucking different tires, brakes and suspension, your looking at all sorts of wierd results, i'm going to lay money that you wont cure this and that you'll be looking at haveing to live with this or deactivate the system altogether
Ok so you ave eliminated the ABS form the equation, next thing to do is to check for differences between braking on a smooth surface and braking in a broken surface. If you only get the problem on broken surfaces, you can eliminate the tyres.
This is to be expected to an extent as no car will brake as well over broken surfaces, however, if you get wheel patter excessively, you can point the finger at dampers getting tired.
Chris
OMG - it's cured!!
The new Toyos are fitted - and although i have only driven 30km with them the car is back to normal. I had forgotten how well she hugged the corners and she now stops so hard that the seatbelt has to hold me in - with not a hint of ABS! Funny also that the ride is much quieter and slightly less firm - although more grippy than I remember. I cannot wait for them to bed in over the next few km.
I just wonder if the last two very hot summers here in Greece had simply perished the tyres.
Pleased that it worked Nathan. s:) :) s:)
I wouldn't mind betting that the heat has had an effect on the previous tyres. The tarmac must reach phenomenal temps in July and August. I know the air temp is very high normally in the Summer on Corfu.
Quote from: "Agni"OMG - it's cured!!
The new Toyos are fitted - and although i have only driven 30km with them the car is back to normal. I had forgotten how well she hugged the corners and she now stops so hard that the seatbelt has to hold me in - with not a hint of ABS! Funny also that the ride is much quieter and slightly less firm - although more grippy than I remember. I cannot wait for them to bed in over the next 500km.
I just wonder if the last too very hot summers here in Greece had simply perished the tyres.
Don't forget that it takes quite a few miles of use to wear the scrubbing agents of a new set of Toyos matey s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Being so soft I imagine they will wear in quicker? Any estimates of kmage before they are ready?
I've just driven home from work - took the long route! What a dream she is now. I cannot describe the difference.
Another thing, the tyre fitter said that people love the Toyos but some complain that after a year they loose their grip.
I think in future I will need to replace them every year - no problem, it's the best 400 Euros I have spent in along time. (I'm still planning to replace/upgrade the discs though!)
Quote from: "Agni"Being so soft I imagine they will wear in quicker? Any estimates of kmage before they are ready?
Good to hear your car is back to putting a smile on your face. I have heard that the Goodyear F1s lose grip in the wet after around 5000 miles, but do not know if this applies to the dry running as well.
Re the Toyos, it seems a bit variable as to how long they take to scrub the mould release off. I have had two sets on my other car in the last 8 months and the first set were still improving up to 2400Km. The set I had fitted a couple of months ago seemed to scrub in much quicker and were good from around 200 miles. Take it easy and build up to the cornering forces gently and you should be fine. The Toyos are a very progressive tyre.
Chris
Really glad you've got your car back to how it should be!
right i tried removeing the ABS1 fuse on track on Saturday and yes it completely disarms the ABS and just throws an ABS light. As for the effect, the brakeing distance and responce is vastly improved over the braking of a 2 with the ABS firing, but it does come at a cost in the its very easy to lock the whole lot up and is unforgiving if you leave it a bit late for braking as i found out!!! (i had to limp home on a flat spotted tyre s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
so would i do it again though, definatley for track work without a doubt but as for eveyday driving, no way, apart from the insurance side its a trade off between an emergency stop with and without and i'd personally not want to blow a tyre in an emergency stop
Quote from: "kanujunkie"right i tried removeing the ABS1 fuse on track on Saturday and yes it completely disarms the ABS and just throws an ABS light. As for the effect, the brakeing distance and responce is vastly improved over the braking of a 2 with the ABS firing, but it does come at a cost in the its very easy to lock the whole lot up and is unforgiving if you leave it a bit late for braking as i found out!!! (i had to limp home on a flat spotted tyre s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
so would i do it again though, definatley for track work without a doubt but as for eveyday driving, no way, apart from the insurance side its a trade off between an emergency stop with and without and i'd personally not want to blow a tyre in an emergency stop
Nice one Stu
I wonder if ABS can be remapped?
Chris
now theres a question, if the engine ECU is anything to go by i'd guess not but its always possible