In my goal to reach at least 180hp at the flywheel without forced induction I was considering the following.
Upgrading the injectors creating a return fuel line upgrade the fuel rail and fit a presure regulator. I could then control this with the dastek unichip once it is fitted.
I know this is possible and has been done in the US and it is done on turbo setups but what are you opinions on this modification?
Thanks Adam
ps with the gtech i am currently recording 158hp
I don't get it...why would you need more fuel? Are you running lean?
If you're not, you will only lose power, if you dump more fuel into NA engine.
If I am changing the pistons, rods and valves would it not be to my advantage to push & burn more fuel through?
I may have got this completely wrong but it is what i understood to be a good path to go down.
assuming you can increase airflow sufficiently to take advantage, yes.
othewise you;ll just run rich.
however unless you go forced induction it's unlikely you can suck enough air in, to require more than teh stock fuel system can cope with.
likewise with reference to our discussion on rods and valves. surely this only is of any use if you are raising the rev limit? which a Dastek can't do.
You know that I am lacking in knowledge in this department but I am still finding it hard to understand why you will have to rasie the rev limit. If the components are stronger/lighter more efficent, surely that alone would create more hp.
With an almost ram air effect from the PPE CAI and the uprated internals surely it would increase the benefit from tuning the Dastek?
Quote from: "Jap GT300"If the components are stronger/lighter more efficent, surely that alone would create more hp.
AFAIK, if you replace heavy parts with lighter ones, you don't actually make more hp. You just reduce the loss of it.
You won't need more fuel with lighter parts.
Adam,
Don't take me as gospel, I'm always ready to be proved wong which is fortunate as Steve spends most of is life trying to do this) , however
Taking the Dastek, intake and stock ecu for starters,
You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.
unless you force induction with a turbo/supercharger there is only so much air that the na engine can suck in, if it's colder air then it's denser whihc means adding more fuel will give more power, but only to a point, the MAF only has a certain range above which it can't cope and the ecu can't compensate with more fuel. This is why Turbos tend to imploy a MAP as well.
So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.
howvever, pistons only need upgrading if the existing ones can't handle the power, this assumes that you have the power in the first place. If you mean lighter pistons then arguably that requires less power wastage to move the piston however as this in turn conects to the crank the benefits are likely to be negligable, as the crank is till a fair chunk of metal.
likewise stronger rods will prevent damage from high horsepower but won't reeally aid youin making it.
Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?
As for raising the rev limiter, all of your stresses on the engine are increased teh higher you rev it. If you could rev it higher without killing the engine then you should make more power due to a higher rev limit.
However the knack is not killing your engine, this is where lighter/stronger components will help, not so much in making power but containing it without breaking something. Now if you want/need to raise the rev limitor you need something like a PowerFCto allow you to do this, I don't beleive the Dastek can. Now your downside is that because your running an SMT you can't have a full ECU replacement, you need a piggyback. Does anyone know of a piggyback that allows teh rev limiter to be raised?
hope that helps.
I don't think you'd see power from that with NA. I think the only way you'll get 180 NA is with head work. Which I am in the middle of getting done while my car is off the road.
I'd like to be proven wrong,
Quote from: "markiii"If you could rev it higher without killing the engine then you should make more power due to a higher rev limit.
I think you'd have to do some work before raising the rev limit does anything. If you check this dyno of a stock car, the power is already starting to drop about 500rpm before the rev limit. Higher limit wouldn't give more power.
m http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg (http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg) m
(I'm sure you know that, but someone reading the above might get another idea)
Fair point Tem.
WD, have you gone for fensport in the end? I keep getting tempted, have the guaranteed you anything? I kow they were a little vague with figures, but I'd expect worse case if there is no dynoed gain or worse a degradation they should at least refund your cash. What the arragement?
Adam, assuming Ben gets the hoped for result from teh headwork Iwould expect this to be the far more cost effective way to to spend your cash.
As you all know my car is off the road as I can't drive right now so it seemed like the best time to do it. I have yet to arrange anything concrete with Fensport but i'm taking the safe root and buying another head and sending that to them.
Costly I know, but I wanted to know I could go back to my normal head.
I'd make sure they at least refund you if there is no gain.
Since they can't give concrete figures, remind them there are 300 eager roadster owners here hoping this gives the 30BHP they think it will.
BUGGER BUGGER BALLS, they just rang! Spooky!
The guy that did it before no longer does head work, he's retired or something.
BUT they know someone else that can do it, they are getting me power figures and costs now. They should know in a few hours and i'll post right away, i'll sort all the details with them.
Dear lord why don't I just buy a RX8.
ain't that always the way.
or a 350Z.
Holy crap CHIMAERAs go for 15k or less.
Quote from: "markiii"Adam,
You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.
You do with the monocraft s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (it has hooooge vents)
Quote from: "markiii"So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.
So will additional fuel help in this situation?
Quote from: "markiii"Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?
I forgot to say it was valve and spring set, although this probably still won't be advantagous.
Quote from: "markiii"hope that helps
Yes, I'll be getting headwork done!
I'll be finding out about the head work in a few hours, if I don't buy a RX7 first.
Quote from: "Jap GT300"Quote from: "markiii"Adam,
You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.
You do with the monocraft s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (it has hooooge vents)
Quote from: "markiii"So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.
So will additional fuel help in this situation?
Quote from: "markiii"Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?
I forgot to say it was valve and spring set, although this probably still won't be advantagous.
Quote from: "markiii"hope that helps
Yes, I'll be getting headwork done!
hmmn, forgot about the monocraft, that may help a little but unless the filter is right in the airflow it's still not really RAM. ref fuel, only if teh stock injectors have maxed out. Which is unlikely, you should find this out when the unichip is setup, so I'd wait until then and see if you really need it.
I still wouldn't bother with the valves but if your going to have headwork doen that wuld be teh time to to it as most of the labour will be the same.
Holly crap. Fensport reckon the new guy says about 10-20bhp and will charge £1200! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I'm not paying that, I could get a 3rd Gen RX7 from Jimmys RXs for 10k with new breaks, rubber and a engine re-build.
as opposed to the previous chap who quoted £350 for 30bhp, thats taking the piss.
I'd see if anyone at IMOC know who the old guy is and approach him directly see if you can persuade him.
anyone out there knwo anywhere that does headwork at REALSITIC prices?
Quote from: "markiii"anyone out there knwo anywhere that does headwork at REALSITIC prices?
Anyone interested in shipping a head to Finland...?
How much of the engine is regarded as the "head"?
Is it just the the 5" or so of the top that includes the plugs and throttle body etc?
Quote from: "Jap GT300"How much of the engine is regarded as the "head"?
Is it just the the 5" or so of the top that includes the plugs and throttle body etc?
Just about, but it can depend on what they are doing to it. Just porting and polishing will be fine, but if they do anything to the cams....
BUT I would be interested Tem, what do you have in mind?
I've gotta say - my guesstimate on the kind of gains you'd get from a straight port & polish on a modern Japanese head would be more down the 10-20bhp end than the 30bhp.. Heck - even on heavily turbocharged Japanese cars you only get fairly modest gains, and we're talking NA here..
Unless of course the previous Fensport guy happened to know that the intake & exhaust tracts on the 1zzfe heads are terrible, and full of casting flash..
The higher price could also feasibly include valve work - so it would be worth finding out exactly what they're planning on doing for that price.. If it included valve work, the larger valves & seat lapping etc, then that might not be too bad a price..
'Head' btw, generally refers to everything above where the pistons stop at TDC (Top Dead Centre), which is where the headgasket will be too - however it usually excludes the exhaust manifold & intake manifold. Best to get these ground & matched at the same time, as well as any metal gaskets, for best gasflow. A good headjob will include flowtesting too.
Just my £0.02..
Aaron
You are right, but in the beginning Fensport had quoted us £300 - £500 and I had decided for £300 even if I only got 10bhp out of it i'd be happy. I'm not paying over 1k for it, I could get 10bhp from a manifold and CAT removal.
I also think someone got 20bhp from a Dat chip, right?
No arguments there s:) :) s:) £300-500 sounds like a simple port & polish, whereas £1000 upwards sounds to me more like a port, polish, valve work, exhaust & intake hone & match and a check-for-true & skim of the head..
Which is probably (almost certainly) overkill, unless you're struggling for the very last bhp out of the engine.
I certainly wouldn't go to all that trouble without having a decent engine management unit in there, and if you were spending a grand on head work, I'd say you'd be looking at another £1500 on a MoTeC or similar anyway..
I.e. you'd be in 'money is no object'-land s:) :) s:)
I'll shut up now s;) ;) s;)
Aaron
Quote from: "aaronjb"Unless of course the previous Fensport guy happened to know that the intake & exhaust tracts on the 1zzfe heads are terrible, and full of casting flash..
Actually they are kinda crappy...let me see if I can find those pics...
Quote from: "WoodenDummy"I also think someone got 20bhp from a Dat chip, right?
Martin (aka mph) got 159bhp from his NA using a Dastek UniChip, and an a'Pexi intake. No other mods.
This was prior to the turbo which in current guise is developing 220bhp - which was more than enough to generate some very 'interesting' moments at Castle Coombe last weekend - sorry about the mud and grass on the back of the car Martin s:( :( s:(
it's when theirs skid marks on teh roof you need to worry.
Here we go...remember that 1ZZ is a crappy cheapo budget engine, meant to be produced for as cheaply as possible and to be used in grocery getters...
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20combustion%20chamber%201.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20exhaust%20port%201.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20exhaust%20port%202.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20Exhaust%20port%203.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20Intake%20port%202.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20Intake%20port%203.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20Intake%20port%204.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!%20Intake%20port%205.JPG)
Yes as Tem pointed out our head is a POS. If you want high NA power you HAVE to start looking at the head first, even if it's just to make sure the engine can take it.
EDIT ** I wouldnt be surpized if head work didnt give us 15-20bhp, but i'll be expecting 10.
Ben,
Are you basing that based upon port and polish? or the whole kaboodle?
Quote from: "markiii"Ben,
Are you basing that based upon port and polish? or the whole kaboodle?
Which bit? The 20bhp? No I think a little cam work would need to be done to get that much power. My point is that Fensport claimed this for about a year for £300 to £400 and now they say over 1k for 10bhp. Which has basically peed me off.
I think someone who knew what they are doing could get 10bhp from our head without much effort, and I still think you have to start here if you want good reliable NA power.
well if a port and polish, for £350ish could yield 10bhp that would still be better value than any mod other than the unichip todate.
Trouble is would need to be out of warranty to do it, and I hate to thik what else they would find stripping it down s:-( :-( s:-(
Tem,
Was your question implying you know someone in Finland who can do this for that kind of price?
EDITED DUE TO GEOGRAPHICAL INEPTITUDE
Quote from: "markiii"Trouble is would need to be out of warranty to do it, and I hate to thik what else they would find stripping it down s:-( :-( s:-(
A Cabbage?
with this engine, anythigs possible s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
speak to Japspeed. I'm sure that Simon mentioned that he knew a good 'headman'
Quote from: "markiii"Tem,
Was your question implying you know someone in Finland who can do this for that kind of price?
Well, yes and no...I know someone who has done a great job on other Toyota engines, but never worked on a 1ZZ, so he can't promise +x hp in advance.
m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9005 (http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9005) m
Rob of No Limits is selling three 1ZZ heads via this link!
any ide how much he wants for them?
by the time they've been shipped it may be cheaper to source in the UK, does anyone have an exact descriptio of what the head consists of such that if asking a scrappy we'd know what to ask for?
Is teh corrolla head the same?
I can get the whole engine from MJ's in Thurrock for £350 (not including computer or box)
If I had teh cash I'd buy that just to keep as a spare.
If we can find someone to do the headwork it would be worth it.
Then get that head done swap it, and send off the next one.
1zz head-2zz intake. Could fit with some angle milling and port work. May make top end power. May kill the bottom end. May kill both ends but worth some investigating IMHO.
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!1zzhead2zzzintake.JPG)
2zz intake gasket on a 1zz head
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!1zzhead2zzintakegasket.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!1zzhead2zzintakegasket1.JPG)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/!1zzhead2zzintakegasket2.JPG)
Just a thought I would love to explore but will never get around to.
grr I just never know whether I can be bothered with this engine.
2zz swap s8) 8) s8)
This all depends what you're setting out to achieve, how deep your pockets are and mainly why you're going this route.
N/A tuning is VERY expensive to do properly. Simply replacing crank, rods and pistons with steel will not give you a jump in power, or at least not a significant one. What it will do is significantly strengthen the bottom end of your engine and providing your block is up to it, allow you to raise the rev limit of the engine.
While you are at the bottom end and you're serious about doing this properly you will also want to eliminate windage. This is when, on a wet sumped car, the crank as it turns dips into the oil in the sump. Now you know what happens when you drive through a big puddle in your car and the dragging effect and slow down it can cause, that is exactly the same as what is going on in the bottom of your engine as it spins. You can get by this with a properly designed sump with a windage tray or the perfect solution is to run the engine dry sumped and in a vacuum.
Now we've got a nice bottom end with shiny pistons in it with big pockets in them to allow the valves to open further you'll want to port and flow the head. Then, as you're revving higher, switch to solid lifters and any valve mods that may be necessary. Finally you can fit those mental cams you've been itching for.
So we have a mental engine that can rev like a bastard and now needs to ram more air & fuel in faster and get it out again in a non-restrictive manner. Induction first. Being this serious, tapered throttle boddies are the only option. Suck and fuel tastic (you'll more than likely need to uprate your fuel system). To control them you are going to need a fully mappable ecu and preferably have it professionally mapped on an engine dyno (as opposed to a rolling road. The R/R should really only be used for fine tuning/correcting any issues after the engine has been installed). Then of course you'll need a properly designed exhaust. A jonny big-bore kit will not suffice.
After all that you can then look to your transmission. Lighter flywheel to make it rev more freely, might need an uprated clutch. Might want to change the gearing or CWP to better take advantage of the different power chacteristics you now have.
Finally after all that, you will be in possession of a proper honest to god race engine with all the baggage that comes along with it (anyone who thinks you can treat an engine in this state of tune like a standard road car engine is in for a very expensive suprise).
If that is your goal, good on ya. Just don't exect it to be cheap. To build an engine like the above is going to cost thousands to do it properly which is when we get to the point of what you are trying to achive.
The common cry I hear from most people is "I want more power!". My next question is always "why?"
Someone once said that you can never have too much power... I personally think you can. The problem is that in the pursuit of power you can end up sacrificing many things but the main two are reliability and balance. There is a stage where the brakes, chassis, suspension, etc simply cannot handle the power that you are asking them to deal with and the balance of the car is destroyed and ultimately it's not a pleasant experience.
The fastest thing I've ever driven is an S2000 powered Westfield. It's knocking on the door of 500bhp/ton of pure violence. It's brutal in a way that nothing else I've ever driven is. Calling it a handful is an understatement. It is a absolute scream to drive in small doses as it has reality warping performance. But I would always choose to drive mine over it with it's modest (in comparison) 330bhp/ton. It's far better balanced and much more exploitable.
...and this is my point. Are you wanting to race where every single bhp counts? Are you wanting a little more overtaking grunt on the road? Do you want more power but want it to be reliable on the track? How deep are your pockets?
Most people want the power on the road, they want it cheaply and are unlikely to stress there engines too much. This is where the strap-on F/I kit rules. A big wodge of torque low down that will push you into the back into your seat and feel like you're flying. A N/A tune will not give you this effect and to make progress you are going to have to paste it everywhere. Though it may be, it will not feel as fast and you'll have to work the gearbox a lot more to get the most out of it.
But, N/A is far more desireable on track as it's far more adjustable and you'll be in the powerband all day anyhow. But unless you have ego issues and must be the fastest car around the circuit or you are racing, I'd argue that the car is quick enough and you'd actually be better upgrading the driver with training.
When you do finally get the urge to want to go quicker, then at that point I'd consider a dedicated track machine that will be far ahead in performance to any modded road car and most supercars for that matter. All for under £10k.
So you want the best of both worlds, you want an N/A engine, reliability and a big slug of power. The only way to win here is to transplant the engine with a new one (preferably stock) that satisfies your power and weight requirements. This is why many people with Elises are swapping to Honda power. In standard trim it's producing more power and torque with a much wider power band than a K-Series tuned to the same level. Reletive pricing is the same (about £10k for a conversion or a properly done 200bhp K-Series). Yep you can make a K go faster. But the Honda is stock and designed to do 100,000 miles with 10k servicing. The K will need a strip down and rebuild costing a couple of thousand quid on a fairly regular basis depending on use.
The last option is to simply buy a faster car. When you mod a car and it comes to re-sale you will NOT recoup your outlay. If anything it may even devalue the car. This is the sad reality of it. If you want to go quicker, buy an S2000. Quicker still? a TVR. You can pick up them up for not much more than a Mr2 (older TVRs can be less).
All IMO of course s:) :) s:)
Edited to add: I'm not intentionally trying to be contentious. Just sometimes it can be fun s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Juansolo,
Fantastic post! If only I had half your insight into this ...
Quote from: "juansolo"Someone once said that you can never have too much power... I personally think you can. The problem is that in the pursuit of power you can end up sacrificing many things but the main two are reliability and balance. There is a stage where the brakes, chassis, suspension, etc simply cannot handle the power that you are asking them to deal with and the balance of the car is destroyed and ultimately it's not a pleasant experience.
I agree - but for different reasons. I suspect your post is meant to be general, but I'm going to take this slightly out of contect and consider the '2. Frankly, I like it just as it is. I find it quick enough, with just enough of that 'real driving experience' to make my heart beat quicker, and after all, that is what I wanted out of a car (any car). Which brings me onto another point you make:
Quote from: "juansolo"I'd argue that the car is quick enough and you'd actually be better upgrading the driver with training.
100% agree. I'd like a driver upgrade please! I'm very aware that I'm not fully capable of exploiting the car in standard form, and that I should really have this mastered before I attempt anything in the way of tuning mods. Of course, I use the car on a daily basis, and expect to cover anything up to 25k a year in it, so the mods would not have to sacrifice reliability (see above). Quite a difficult balance to achieve, I think. Perhaps I should consider this in the (extememly - read retirement) long term:
Quote from: "juansolo"dedicated track machine
Money and time permitting of course!
+ The honda S2000 has the most powerful 2.0 engine (NA) Ever produced by a car manufacturer
240bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock: That is impressive
Also I love the way the VTEC cuts in like turbo at about 5k revs and keeps going to 9k!
The dedicated track machine route I would add, is not neccessarily as cheap as it may appear. In certain respects it can be; By far the most cost effective track car are the likes of the cheaper end single seaters. You could for example buy yourself a Formula Ford for about £8k and drop a standard 2.0 Zetec into it. This, on a completely unstressed engine will leave ANY road car around a circuit. Brakes last forever as can tyres as it's so light. Maintenance may be a tad involved and you'll find yourself fettling it lot but this can be a lot of fun. Also the savings made by not having to worry about tax/insurance/MOT etc are offset by the need for a trailer and a tow car. Then you've got to find somewhere to store it all.
BUT, there is an ongoing issue with whether single seaters (or more to the point, open wheeled cars) should be allowed out on circuit with regular road machinery. Some insurers are getting a bit fidgety about this and there is concern that they might get banned from track days. It's a crying shame as they really are the perfect vehicle for the job. It's the sole purpose for the design! Also most of them are too small to fit the *ahem* larger gentleman. Hence the forming of TFFAB club. A club whose members would love a single seater but are just Too Fat For A Bedford (Formula Vauxhall Lotus).
(http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/Avatars/TFFAB.jpg)
So I was left with a caterfield. As I say it isn't always as cheap an option as it looks. You could luck on a proper track prepared machine like one we just sold for £8500. Or you could buy one, blow it up, strip it down to the chassis and rebuild it and end up in the end spending twice that on a car that's worth less... Still, I've enjoyed every minute of it and regret none of it!
I stand by the fact that the Mr2 is one of the best and cheapest to run track day cars out there out of the box. Only when you've really exhausted what you can do with a standard one would I consider going on either of the above routes.
If you do want to spend a bit of money on it, get a second set of wheels to fit some track rubber on so you always have a good set for the road.
No dude, I agree (mostly, reading is hard work and i'm sweepy s:roll: :roll: s:roll: ) Which is why i'm looking into a 2ZZ drop.
Indeed transplant of a stock engine that posesses the characteristics you want is the way to go if you don't want to go F/I IMO. It's massively turning a standard lump to achive the same goal that I think is unwise in a car like the Mr2.
Quote from: "Jap GT300"+ The honda S2000 has the most powerful 2.0 engine (NA) Ever produced by a car manufacturer
240bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock: That is impressive
Also I love the way the VTEC cuts in like turbo at about 5k revs and keeps going to 9k!
exactly like the Celica 190 engine (190hp from a 1. s8) 8) s8) ....but, I'm not sure you'd want that happening mid-corner !! (CIN will disagree)
Quote from: "Jonny Turbo"Quote from: "Jap GT300"+ The honda S2000 has the most powerful 2.0 engine (NA) Ever produced by a car manufacturer
240bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock: That is impressive
Also I love the way the VTEC cuts in like turbo at about 5k revs and keeps going to 9k!
exactly like the Celica 190 engine (190hp from a 1. s8) 8) s8) ....but, I'm not sure you'd want that happening mid-corner !! (CIN will disagree)
The S2000 engine doesn't cut in with a jump or a kick like a turbo or a normal VTEC. When you drive it, it comes in smoothly and you barley feel it (you hear it!).
Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Quote from: "Jonny Turbo"Quote from: "Jap GT300"+ The honda S2000 has the most powerful 2.0 engine (NA) Ever produced by a car manufacturer
240bhp s:shock: :shock: s:shock: That is impressive
Also I love the way the VTEC cuts in like turbo at about 5k revs and keeps going to 9k!
exactly like the Celica 190 engine (190hp from a 1. s8) 8) s8) ....but, I'm not sure you'd want that happening mid-corner !! (CIN will disagree)
The S2000 engine doesn't cut in with a jump or a kick like a turbo or a normal VTEC. When you drive it, it comes in smoothly and you barley feel it (you hear it!).
You do feel it! I have a J-spec spoon (just dealership chassis and appearance options) and with foot to the floor when all valves cut in it throughs you into your seat.
You can come and have a test drive if you like s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:? :? s:?
I drove 2 S2ks before I looked at the MR2. One was on track. There is no way in the world you can say that it cuts in like something in a Prelude or a turbo on a 200SX.
Honda even made a big deal about it when they released the S2000. They had refined the engine and made it smooth. Don't get me wrong there is a jump in power, but its not a kick like the old VTECs, and it never bothered me on a bend at all.
Great cars, how much is it going for? s:) :) s:)
2001, 7000miles - £15,495. It is immaculate condition and the cheapest 2001 in the country. It has every extra going except the hard top.
I'll really miss it when it goes. I wonder if it is a bit more raw because it is used to 102Octane, the ecu fuel mapping maybe slightly different as well.
Quote from: "Jap GT300"2001, 7000miles - £15,495. It is immaculate condition and the cheapest 2001 in the country. It has every extra going except the hard top.
I'll really miss it when it goes. I wonder if it is a bit more raw because it is used to 102Octane, the ecu fuel mapping maybe slightly different as well.
Thinking about it, that could be the case. What colour is it?
Silverstone silver (not a chip or scratch on her) with grey leather (rare combo). You could have the personal plate too s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Y2 SLY
Maybe we should do this in PM
the cheapest 2001 in the country ... a bold statement. I picked up a 2002 for 12.5k ... with 6k on the clock and not a single mark .. admittedly it isnt leather or ac'd but its a soft top what do I want ac for!! s8) 8) s8) Had it for 6 months now and no probbies at all .. I think that I did get a bargain tho!
Where was that imported from as AC and Leather is standard in both UK and Japan?
leather is standard .. hmm not as far as I am aware it isnt! neither is AC. dont hold me to it tho s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
It is, unless yours is pre 2000. They also inlude zenons as standard now which my one has.
Is yours a face lift model?
well when I went to the toyota dealer to enquire about a new one he told me leather was an extra £500 and AC was an extra £xxx (cant remember).
Quote from: "floater"well when I went to the toyota dealer to enquire about a new one he told me leather was an extra £500 and AC was an extra £xxx (cant remember).
are you talking about your MR2? I think Adam was talking about a Honda S2000...
hmm ok .. yeah i am on about a 2!! I didnt read the whole post ... s:wink: :wink: s:wink: !!
Ahhhhhh. Didn't think I could price match that s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
hmm no maybe not .. I was thinking "God the Toyota Dealer was yanking my chain about the extra for leather"!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
jap gt 300 how i your 180hp project?
I'm in the middle of mine 180hp project also.
Monday i will have my first tuned maps for the power fc and i will be doing some more dynos.
I have a guy working on my powerfc stock maps with the info from my first dynos with powerfc
He is now optimizing them based on the telemetry data that i colected and monday he will send me a 1st test map to try.
Let's see if i can reach the 180hp without head work s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
But that will be the next stage of development.
Port & polish everywhere s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I'm currently with 156hp and 192NM of torque with the stock powerfc that isn't optimized above 5500rpm
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let's see if i can reach the 180hp without head work s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Even if you did, it wouldnt last long. The 1ZZ is a POS.
Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let's see if i can reach the 180hp without head work s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Even if you did, it wouldnt last long. The 1ZZ is a POS.
Hmm, hello? Don't suppose you could qualify why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?
Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let's see if i can reach the 180hp without head work s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Even if you did, it wouldnt last long. The 1ZZ is a POS.
Hmm, hello? Don't suppose you could qualify why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?
I 2nd that - Toyota have done a huge amount of extreme testing with the engine pushing out 200+bhp during the turbo testing, with no (to our knowledge, and TTE were being very open about everything else) failures except due to radiant heat damage (and that was anciliary components anyway)
Why are you posting turbo remarks to a reply that I made to a 180 NA post? The reply is in response to to someone suggesting that 180 NA might be possible on the 1ZZ without headwork. You won't get easily get the 1ZZ to 180bhp NA without headwork and if you DID some how manage to get 180bhp without some gentle forced induction I don't see the head lasting for long. Toyota have also done NA turning with the 1ZZ and turned backs on it, the original VM180 was a short run and if I remember from pics the head isn't even the same. They then dropped the power down to about 155bhp and stuck with the TRD header, exhaust and intake pipe.
Can you honestly tell me you've held a 1ZZ head in your hand and thought to yourself "wow what a nice looking head, I think i'll keep that just the way it is i'm sure that will handle 180bhp".
FYIW I'd trust a well set up 1ZZ gentle turbo putting out 190bhp without headwork than I would a 180bhp NA 1ZZ, I mean the thing would drive like it was race prepped s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"jap gt 300 how i your 180hp project?
I'm in the middle of mine 180hp project also.
Monday i will have my first tuned maps for the power fc and i will be doing some more dynos.
I have a guy working on my powerfc stock maps with the info from my first dynos with powerfc
He is now optimizing them based on the telemetry data that i colected and monday he will send me a 1st test map to try.
Let's see if i can reach the 180hp without head work s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
But that will be the next stage of development.
Port & polish everywhere s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I'm currently with 156hp and 192NM of torque with the stock powerfc that isn't optimized above 5500rpm
I'm getting very similar power to yours at present I think I was on between 156-158bhp.
I haven't yet fitted the Dastek unichip which will be done fairly shortly. I am hoping for some good gains from that and then depending on price I will go for a full port and polish.
Adam
Quote from: "mph"why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?
I'm already worried that mine won't last long at 140hp s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Why are you posting turbo remarks to a reply that I made to a 180 NA post? The reply is in response to to someone suggesting that 180 NA might be possible on the 1ZZ without headwork. You won't get easily get the 1ZZ to 180bhp NA without headwork and if you DID some how manage to get 180bhp without some gentle forced induction I don't see the head lasting for long.
Maybe we misunderstand each other - I wasn't trying to compare NA to turbo: I'm trying to consider what would fail on the head trying to reach 180 NA. What is likely to fail?
I can't see changing the cam duration being a killer, and if you're not messing with the head, I can't see you messing with the bottom end to increase compression. I can see upping the rev limiter might make the head get very unhappy, or at least the valve springs, but other than that, what have I missed?
Let's just get one thing straight
Our engine has 2 problems
- first: there was some engines blocks that had a factory problem and they cause a engine fail, after some miles.
My car had that after i did 60000KM
I made an oil change at 58000KM
And after 2000KM there was no oil in it.
Solution: Complete new block with internals, new version with everything checked and some things have changed on the internals (this was told me by the spanish mecanic that changed my engine.
I was going to germany on vacations and 600km after i left home the engine failed because there was no oil in it.
Check the care and maintenance posts on spyderchat.com for a longer description
- second: our engine doesn't make very much rpm without having problems (valves and internals damaged)
A friend of mine, owner of a red mr2 that is on other topic some images.
Had to shift from 4rd gear at around 180KM/H to 3rd gear and then 2nd gear, to save him from a crash. He fortunatly had the reflections to do this and he didn't crashed.
with that breaking with the gears the car made probably 9000rpm or more.
And because of that it had the valves and internals damaged.
His engine had oil in it and the only problem was the excess of rpm's
AND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!
If our car engine was so bad why tte was making a turbo kit that doesn't modify anything inside the engine.
And one more thing, and engine head work (port & polish doesn't make any bad to an engine. It's good for an engine to have the exhaust and intake chambers clean and smooth. s:idea: :idea: s:idea:
I'm not making this right now because i'm waiting for the end of warranty.
Because i know that port & polish is the way to go.
You can put a great intake and a great exhaust system, but if the restriction on the engine head it's still there, there aren't so many improvements.
It's like my exhaust system right now.
I have a good header
I have a good exhaust
In the middle there is a stock main cat
Yes there is a improvement, but if i change the cat to a high flow cat or remove it, then i will have an even greater result!!
My suggestion is, wait for my car and jap gt300 results.
And then maybee you will understand what i'm talking about. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Best Regards for everyone and an happy 2004 with 180HP or more (TTE Turbo)
This will be THE year for our car, you will see...
I expect to be eating for break-fast S2000 by the end of the summer!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Sorry MPH I didn't see your reply, I didn't mean to ignore you...
But first...
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let's just get one thing straight
Our engine has 2 problems
er we must be using different engines, because we have way more than 2 problems with it. Low rev pinging, timing chains, pre-cats, bad sports exhaust to name but a few. The 1ZZ is a economy engine it was made to be cheap, very cheap, TO cheap. Its light and gives a good 140bhp and suits the light '2 but it is not built to be a sports car engine and is not built for more power.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"If our car engine was so bad why tte was making a turbo kit that doesn't modify anything inside the engine.
And when do we get to see this turbo? Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"? I know two people working for Toyota both of them in respectable positions and I was told Toyota do know about the problems with the MR2 but are keeping quiet. As I understand it when Lampka tried to turbo other cars they ended up with more and more problems.
Anyway I have already stated that I think a well set up turbo on a 1ZZ is a much better idea than pushing over 180bhp NA and to try 180NA without using headwork as a starting point is just asking for trouble. Of course i'm sure you'll make it to 180bhp and hopefully have no problems with it. I stated on SC that I could get a easy 170bhp NA from this engine, then I took it apart and put it back together and decided not to waste my time, as did Little Rocket and a few other people.
QuoteAnd one more thing, and engine head work (port & polish doesn't make any bad to an engine. It's good for an engine to have the exhaust and intake chambers clean and smooth.
I'm not sure I understand your point with this as THIS is my point also... just about anyway...
QuoteI expect to be eating for break-fast S2000 by the end of the summer!!!
And they will still sit happy in the knowledge that they have a beautiful well thought out engine that isn't likely to explode instead of a "way to cheap" engine that Toyota used to save money instead of using a de-tunned 2ZZ.
QuoteAND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!
I also think that this is fantasy, sorry. Many people of all types have a had engine problems. From Exboyracer, who really WAS a race driver to people that drove the car at 40mph everywhere to the shops. A month before my car went off the road Toyota told me my CATs are fine, and I check them now and they have started to fall apart. I don't know if Toyota lied but either way i'm pissed off.
I still think you'll get to 180bhp and maybe even without problems, but if you took a 1000 MR2s and did the same thing, I bet more would come back with problems than would drive on past the 80,000 mark.
I love my MR2, but the engine is terrible I don't care because its not the first time i've run a sports car with a engine i'm always looking at. In fact when it comes down to the little things like not starting or oil leaks its very good, but I am annoyed because this time its my only car.
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "mph"why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?
I'm already worried that mine won't last long at 140hp s:? :? s:?
Mine hasn't it would seem. At least its off the road and I can do something about it.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"A friend of mine, owner of a red mr2 that is on other topic some images. Had to shift from 4rd gear at around 180KM/H to 3rd gear and then 2nd gear, to save him from a crash.
AND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!
Just curious, what happened to your friend? Apparently he lost the brakes, but could you tell more?
I'M 100% SURE THAT I HAVEN'T OVER-REVVED MY ENGINE s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.
Quote from: "Tem"I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.
If that's the case, then I'm knackered... s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?
Yes
Quote from: "Jap GT300"Quote from: "WoodenDummy"Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?
Yes
Who?
Which Toyota sponsored company has ever included in its sales pitch "we'll give you a little more power but thats your lot dudes and its going to cost you so start saving"?
The 1ZZ is not a engine modern engine that can be tunned like a modern engine. For that i'd buy a VAG engine and stick a chip in it for 40bhp extra.
Not that I care about the 1ZZ, people keep jumping to the defence of the car like im calling it a lump of crap. Its a amazing little roadster, but the engine is a POS. Simple. It is. This all started because I stated it.
Do you think 80's Ferrari's had really good engines? What about 80's Lotus?
But to ignore the fact that the 1ZZ is a POS and start tunning it is not a good idea.
thats why i m planning to put 2zz in instead
sam
"sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?
I was replying yes to this.
I agree and know that this engine has some awful design flaws and was made on the cheap but that doesn't mean you can't make it better.
Internals, port & polish then increase rev limit. Thats all i'm after and I know it will cost £££
Quote from: "Jap GT300""sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?
I was replying yes to this.
I agree and know that this engine has some awful design flaws and was made on the cheap but that doesn't mean you can't make it better.
Internals, port & polish then increase rev limit. Thats all i'm after and I know it will cost £££
I wish you all the luck with it s:) :) s:) I think a port and polish will do more for the engine than any other one thing can. I curse Toyota for not just putting a slightly de-tunned 2ZZ in, it has similar weight, and fits right in.
Ho boy this will take some time to reply s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
But it's for a good cause.
I'm just curious.
How many of you have the engine replaced on 2003?
I'm asking this because my engine was replaced in August 2003 and the engine i have now is a revised one.
And i don't know when they started to replace the stock head with this new one.
Once again i will start to explain why our engine have problems.
This was explained to me by an engineer from toyota (off the record)
Some engine heads of our engine has a small error of 7 microns (0,007 milimeters).
This diference is at the begining.
With some miles on the car, this diference starts to rise, until the moment, that the car consumes some oil
The oil then is burned and goes through the cats and passes on the lambda sensors.
Because of the oil, the sensors starts indicating to the ECU that the mixture is rich (but it's not, it's because of the oil that the sensor is thinking that), Then the ECU starts delivering less fuel, that is real necessary, and you start burning a mixture of more air/oil than air/fuel.
This will cause a bad explosion and the fast detioration of the cats.
And when you damage the baby cats ceramic, the glass fiber that is around the ceramic loses up the baby cat and goes to the main cat.
Has you know, glass fiber doesn't burn, so it will obstruct the 3rd cat, and the car will start to loose acceleration.
you can read all my story on this topic.
http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6375
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"I'm just curious.
How many of you have the engine replaced on 2003?
Some engine heads of our engine has a small error of 7 microns (0,007 milimeters).
Mine was replaced last year...no idea if it's a new or old or what...
But you have to be kidding about 0.007 MILLImeters difference? That sounds like a normal tolerance for F1 engines.
Maybe 0.7 millimeters would be in the right area for normal engines...
Thinking out loud, you may have a flaw in your theory:
My understanding is that of your theory is that the engine is runs lean, this over heats the pre-CATs and causes the chain of events as we expect them.
If oil is contaminating the O2 sensors and that contamination makes them err on reading on the rich side, it's a good theory and I'll buy it.
However, I think the oil will be burning off completely and not contaminating the sensors. In which case the sensors will still be trimming the fuel but I believe only by an equivilent to that of oil that is being burnt to keep the engine at stoich. In which case, the system isn't going lean and therefore not overheating. You might be running the car on a petrol/oil mixture which won't be doing it any favours, but doesn't fit your theory so neatly. Worse, at the point you're burning so much oil at you hit the limit that the ECU will trim fuel back, the system you'll go rich and you'll throw a CEL, not a CAT...
s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?:
that theory isn't a theory is the explanation that this engineer from toyota gave me.
And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.
It starts to raise, till the moment the oil starts to pass through the cilinders in to the explosion chamber and then through the exhaust system.
My exhaust was very black when i stopped the car after i started to hear the engine noise problem.
Just some mores facts to add to this conversation
My car was with the oil level below minimum. No light came up before i start to hear the engine noise problem, the oil light we have is for oil pressure, not oil level.
I have did a oil change 2500KM before i had the problem on the car.
It's impossible our car consuming almost 4 liters of oil in that KM'S in normal conditions.
QuoteJust curious, what happened to your friend? Apparently he lost the brakes, but could you tell more?
I'M 100% SURE THAT I HAVEN'T OVER-REVVED MY ENGINE
I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.
He just entered a curve to fast and the front was going to crash.
He had to use the gears to break with the engine also.
And He over revved hard.
I also push my car to the rev limiter several times.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"He just entered a curve to fast and the front was going to crash.
He had to use the gears to break with the engine also.
I don't get it.
If his brakes were ok, surely he could've stopped with them? Engine braking doesn't bring any extra braking power, if the brakes are ok...
Or am I missing something here..?
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.
I was just browsing some other pages and realized he must've meant 0,007 inches...
m http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech ... t3stright/ (http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0309ht_part3stright/) m
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "MadMigMR2"And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.
I was just browsing some other pages and realized he must've meant 0,007 inches...
m http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech ... t3stright/ (http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0309ht_part3stright/) m
Yeah 0,007 millimetres seems, well... not right, that seems way way way to small. God knows how they would even detect that.
Also explain the CAT problem doesn't take away the fact that it happens, it also doesn't stop the 1ZZ being a rather naff little engine for a rather nice little car to be stuck with. I'd take a Rover K any day over the 1ZZ.
But i'd take a F355 over my MR2 as well, but that doesn't mean its going to happen s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
The last thing I'd want to do when entering a bend too fast is to relenquish more rear end grip by dropping it down a few gears and bolloxing my engine and exiting the bend looking through the rear window all at the same time. I simply have to marvel at the shear genius of this recovery strategy.
If you want to stop quickly you want to be applying force through the front wheels, preferably with the braking system, that is of course assuming that the vehicle was travelling forwards towards the bend. If you're going to downchange to such an extent that your engine is scrap you may as well pull the handbrake and make life easy for yourself. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
About the mesure
1 micrometer = 0,001 milimeters
he told me 7 micrometers = 0,007 milimeters
I imagine that this is small, but from what he told me, with some km's in it this diference will raise to a much higher value.
RUSTY
Let me explain better what happened and then you will reply to me how you would save from this situation
You are exiting from a high way to enter another and you have a open curve before you start enter the new highway.
You enter on that curve in 4rd gear at 180KM/H
What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.
Just to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"I imagine that this is small, but from what he told me, with some km's in it this diference will raise to a much higher value.
Yes, but even if you start with 0,000000 micrometers, the gap will be over 0,007 millimeters after the first run.
"What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure."
Use the brakes, just a bit. It transfers weight to front wheels making them grip. (also makes the ass lighter, so be careful about not losing it)
Still don't get it though...if he had time to slow the car down with engine, it sounds like he had enough time to slow down with brakes as well. I guess I just don't get it s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let me explain better what happened and then you will reply to me how you would save from this situation
You are exiting from a high way to enter another and you have a open curve before you start enter the new highway.
You enter on that curve in 4rd gear at 180KM/H
What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.
Just to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.
I have to agree.
Driving at the complete limit with the car already losing front end grip your best option would be to drop it a gear forcing traction back into the rear wheels.
The only other thing you could possibly do is drop clutch to maybe force the arse round, but that doesn't work above 40mph.
Both braking or accelerating in the current gear would push you in a straight line and not around the bend.
Now would be a good time for one of you guys that did driver training to butt in.
Quote from: "Jap GT300"Driving at the complete limit with the car already losing front end grip your best option would be to drop it a gear forcing traction back into the rear wheels.
Hmmmm...if you're at the limit, or actually way beyond it, and the car starts to understeer, how can you get traction back to rear wheels, when you never lost traction in the rear?
Maybe it's just me, but this sounds just crazy. Find an open place. Get the car to 100kmh on 2nd, keep it in 2nd but hold the clutch pedal down. Turn so much that the front loses grip. Release the clutch. Before doing it, guess what happens:
1) You slow down, get traction to sliding front and clear the "corner".
2) You upset the car, get massive oversteer/spin and "go straight out of the road"
Then do the same, but instead of releasing the clutch, gently touch the brakes.
Tem is right. We also a very good ABS system for this. EBD on the '03 makes it even better.
s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
This is why 'boy racers' have a bad name. People in powerful cars racing around, yet don't have the slightest clue how to control them.
I'm not sorry he's crashed/wrecked his car. I bet he won't have learnt his lesson either that he was driving far beyond his capability, and worse, on a public road.
QuoteJust to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.
While this statement itself might be a handy tip that you're not doing something right, the 'solutions' you provide are absolute nonsense.
Those that have done at least one North Weald training day will know that it's quite possible to emergency stop while going travelling round a high-speed corner without engine-braking or any such rubbish.
/personal post - views not necessarily representative of MR2-ROC.
Quote from: "mph"Those that have done at least one North Weald training day will know that it's quite possible to emergency stop while going travelling round a high-speed corner without engine-braking or any such rubbish.
yup... scary as hell but superb when you pull it off. I think it should be the LAW to go on that course! s:D :D s:D
*off-topic mode* martin, seeing as ive done the course, can i drive your turbo! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:D :D s:D s:wink: :wink: s:wink: *off-topic mode*
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "mph"Those that have done at least one North Weald training day will know that it's quite possible to emergency stop while going travelling round a high-speed corner without engine-braking or any such rubbish.
yup... scary as hell but superb when you pull it off. I think it should be the LAW to go on that course! s:D :D s:D
Indeedy, not that I have, but indeedy anyway.
Okay so what do you get taught at North Wealds? Is it awesome. ... as a 21 yr old driving around in a 2 in the wet I could say I have had a few scary moments... my dad has been givingme a few good driving points for rear wheel sports cars as he has a Lotus Esprit. Since these pointers I have felt 10x bettter in the car but would still really like a professional to teach me do's and dont's!
Also how much does it cost to join the club? What are the benefits?
Quote from: "floater"Okay so what do you get taught at North Wealds? Is it awesome. ... as a 21 yr old driving around in a 2 in the wet I could say I have had a few scary moments... my dad has been givingme a few good driving points for rear wheel sports cars as he has a Lotus Esprit. Since these pointers I have felt 10x bettter in the car but would still really like a professional to teach me do's and dont's!
Also how much does it cost to join the club? What are the benefits?
Its not a club, its a driver training course.
Take a look at this thread for more info from when me and a 3 others did the course: m http://www.mr2roc.org/viewtopic.php?t=1108 (http://www.mr2roc.org/viewtopic.php?t=1108) m
cheers for the link .. sorry I wasnt clear I mean how much does it cost to join the MR2 Roadster Owners Club.
Quote from: "floater"cheers for the link .. sorry I wasnt clear I mean how much does it cost to join the MR2 Roadster Owners Club.
It doesnt - your already a member! s:D :D s:D
oh ok superb! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
nice to be a member!
As to the benefits,
Well you get to hang out with this lot!
(ok so perhaps not a great selling point s:D :D s:D )
And there are some cool things going on with TTE that the club are involved in.
As to the north weald.
DO IT!
Simon
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"Let me explain better what happened and then you will reply to me how you would save from this situation
You are exiting from a high way to enter another and you have a open curve before you start enter the new highway.
You enter on that curve in 4rd gear at 180KM/H
What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.
Just to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.
a) You entered the corner far too fast.
b) Jamming it down a gear in this manner is as good as applying the handbrake in a RWD car. This is an insane thing to do when going around a corner at 70+ mph as implied. Not a way to control and already out of control car.
You're only chance is to lift, though not violently as this will have the same effect. The idea is to do it enough so the front end digs in and the rear starts to slide. Once you have the car pointing in the direction you want to be going balance the car with throttle and steering and providing you've got the space, power through the corner.
Also if hitting something is inevitable, hit it front on. Cars are designed to take a much bigger hit at the front and have airbags to protect the occupants.
As for North Weald. There will be ample group days I think this year. We will definitely be attending. Just be wary, I think most people after the day need new tyres s:lol: :lol: s:lol: so remember that in the cost of going.
However from those that have gone, I think it teachs you a WHOLE load of valuable stuff that as Kris said should be law before buying a sports car!
Quote from: "juansolo"Also if hitting something is inevitable, hit it front on.
This also applies to grass/kerbs/gravel-traps/runoff. At least you'll just keep rolling forwards, not sideways s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:? :? s:? s:!: :!: s:!:
Quote from: "pmdye"Quote from: "juansolo"Also if hitting something is inevitable, hit it front on.
This also applies to grass/kerbs/gravel-traps/runoff. At least you'll just keep rolling forwards, not sideways s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:? :? s:? s:!: :!: s:!:
There was a clip of some mini racing in the chit-chat secition as I recall, which showed what can happen if you go in sideways... the wheels dug into the gravel and flipped the car.
Going into anything soft sideways, be it gravel or mud, is bad m-kay. I've seen a few cars go over in this manner. Including one that was travelling at all of about 20 mph when it flipped onto it's roof. It was very surreal.
Quote from: "juansolo"Including one that was travelling at all of about 20 mph when it flipped onto it's roof. It was very surreal.
OMG! time enough to realise what was about to happen before it did! I hope the driver was dressed for the occasion (brown trews & bike clips s:? :? s:? )
I see lots of theory in this topic.
Some right some less right.
I know our car have ABS and EBD and it helps a lot in some situations and in anothers it doesn't help anything.
I don't know many more details about the situation i described.
But imagine that the road was a bit wet and when you break the car continues to go straight.
You have to do something else.
And shifting to lower will cause an instant weight transfer and the front and the rear will start to slide.
Then it's time to control it with the steering and smooth acelerator and break if necessary.
One of the drifting technics from the drift king it's called shift lock, and it's done the same way i have explained above.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"I see lots of theory in this topic.
Some right some less right.
s:? :? s:?
hello wooden dummy
this reply is just to tell you and the rest of the members that i'm not here to argue with anyone.
We are all here to learn something and exchange opinions.
Sometimes we are right, some times we are wrong.
I'm not saying that i'm right and i don't change my way of seeing things s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Just give me one good valuable argument and will have to agree with the opinion of that person s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Best Regards
Luis Gonçalves
PS: And i'm still looking for the 180hp s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.
Easy, turn in less.
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"hello wooden dummy
I'm not arguing with you Mad s:) :) s:)
I do disagree with you on a few things but its just healthy discussion.
I don't think 180 NA is quite as easy as it seems that you think, I think its possible but I don't think its worth it and I really don't think its going to be that nice to drive once you have.
Of course I could be wrong as I never did it, I started then stopped. I'd rather have a 2ZZ. It won't cost me that much more and would be a hell of a lot better.
Also the s:? :? s:? face I posted was in reply to "theory's" as I know how to control my car s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"But imagine that the road was a bit wet and when you break the car continues to go straight.
You have to do something else.
And shifting to lower will cause an instant weight transfer and the front and the rear will start to slide.
So, in your opinion, what is the difference between shifting to lower gear (=engine braking) and braking normally?
Why wouldn't normal braking cause instant weight transfer?
Also when you say the car just goes straight if you brake...that's the case without ABS if you lock the fronts. ABS makes things very different, especially if you panic and floor the brakes. Try it for yourself. Go to a big parking lot (or track or...), get some speed and corner at the limit. Then go a bit faster so the car starts to understeer. Then hit the brakes. Does the car go straight and why not? s;) ;) s;)
Oh and I'm not arguing either, just discussing our different views on some matters s8) 8) s8)
Downshifting on/over the limit mid corner is a bad thing period. To get into a situation where you'd want to that in the first place means that you've already f**ked something up monumentally whether that's gear selection, braking, entry speed, line, etc. Which does not inspire me with confidence in the abilities of the driver in question and makes me value his opinion on how to get out of this situation even less. To do it to a degree that he nuked his engine re-enforces my opinion.
Sorry if that seems harsh but that's just how I read it.
This is a great thread to read through! I was searching for something and came upon this one and read every post.
Someday, maybe next Spring: big bore + head work