me again...
Thought i'd make a post with a more relevant title (mods can delete the other thread if necessary)
just taking a look at the heat shield - rather the bolts securing them and it doesn't look good.
What are my options? The bolt on the left of the picture is extremely rusted and shallow, the one on the right is rusted also, but i can get a small amount of grip on that, although with my weight behind it and gingerly pulling it round, it still slips with a hex socket.....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/greenax/Photo-0556.jpg)
any suggestions??
Hi,
You really need to get some kind of releasing agent on there. I did mine last weekend and liberal application of Plusgas a couple of times over the last month, and on the day, meant mine (although as rusty) came out fine.
The other two are a bit of a faff to reach to spray the PlusGas on.
If you are in the middle of it and can't get PG, you can try WD40, but it's not as good at all.
Another tip is to get the engine warm first, then try. Also, try tightening a little first, then undo them.
WARNING: HEAT SHIELD and manifold will be V hot!
Good luck.
Stu
Oh, and I don't think you can get the heat shield off over the O2 sensors, so those need to come out..
<sorry if you knew that already>
Quote from: "StuM"Oh, and I don't think you can get the heat shield off over the O2 sensors, so those need to come out..
<sorry if you knew that already>
You can get it over 1 but not with them both on.
If you don't have an O2 sensor socket you can use a spanner (a little more difficult but it's what I used)
Drill the buggers out, and leave the heat shield off altogether. Sorted.
Quote from: "Ekona"Drill the buggers out, and leave the heat shield off altogether. Sorted.
The rusty bolts that is - not the O2 sensors! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "StuM"Oh, and I don't think you can get the heat shield off over the O2 sensors, so those need to come out..
<sorry if you knew that already>
I didnt actually realise that s:lol: :lol: s:lol: thanks!
ok, just took a trip out to get a deep 12mm socket for the three amigos, and picked up some loctite freeze release.
So i let it cool for 5mins, then sprayed the loctite onto the heat sink bolts, left it for a few minutes &tried again.....still no f'in luck!!
Its so frustrating!! I feel like giving up because its so much blummin hassle!!! But if I dont carry on, my precats are gonna kill my engine!!! ARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
Ok, so what do I do now..I dont want to be left with the thread stuck in the engine but im running out of options on what to do!! s:( :( s:(
Speaking from experience. Drill them out. I like you tried other routes but in the end had to drill 2 out.
much easier in the long run.
Quote from: "MR2 New Boy"Speaking from experience. Drill them out. I like you tried other routes but in the end had to drill 2 out.
much easier in the long run.
drastic approach.....but seems inevitable
wont the metal filings go into the engine though? I've never had to drill a bolt out before, how do i do it? drill a small hole through the middle?
Going for Dan's option - if you do it carefully you should be able to preserve the thread on the bolt hole.
Another way is to use a dremmel and create a slot in the bolt head that you can get a screw driver in, that might work.
The concern is that access to the two rear bolts is quite tight, so not sure you'd easily get a drill in there.
Are you getting purchase on the bolt head, or is it rounded?
Quote from: "StuM"Are you getting purchase on the bolt head, or is it rounded?
it keeps slipping but not rounded
Quote from: "ad_car_08"wont the metal filings go into the engine though? I've never had to drill a bolt out before, how do i do it? drill a small hole through the middle?
Those bolts just go into bolt holes on a lug that sticks out the side of the engine - nothing will go anywhere near the internals.
I would go for a drill that is a little smaller than the bolt (so, maybe 6mm) and straight down the middle. Once the shield is off you should be able to pick the rest of the bits out from the hole.
Stu
Quote from: "ad_car_08"Quote from: "StuM"Are you getting purchase on the bolt head, or is it rounded?
it keeps slipping but not rounded
Have you tried the next sized down socket? (Not intended to be sarcastic).
Quote from: "StuM"Quote from: "ad_car_08"Quote from: "StuM"Are you getting purchase on the bolt head, or is it rounded?
it keeps slipping but not rounded
Have you tried the next sized down socket? (Not intended to be sarcastic).
yeah, i tried that, but the socket just wouldn't go over the nut and obviously wouldn't grip.
my confidence has grown a little knowing that i cant harm the engine by drilling the bolt (im a wetter, i know!) so i'll break out a 6mm bit on it
ok...
so i got this far, and at a loss what to do.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/greenax/Photo-0557.jpg)
do i drill all the way through or just take the head off with a drill bit or what?
should i be concerned about the metal filings flying everywhere too? its not gonna get sucked in somewhere when i start the engine is it?? I have been hoovering intermitantly but i can still see the odd spots in places
if it were me drilling is your last resort as once the manifold is off you now have teh fun of remving whats left of teh bolt from teh hole before you can replace teh heatshield
and you can't get a drill to teh 2 bolts at teh back anyway?
get a set of irwin extrators which will bite into teh nut
if that still doesn't work and/or you decide to drill just drill teh head off, leave as much of teh bolt as possible to allow you to get it out later, in this case a drill just bigger than M8 will seperate teh head from teh bolt
OK, checked markiii's How To on painting the heat shield and this is his picture of manifold with heat shield removed:
(http://www.mr2roc.org/Repository/misc/pictures/howtos/paintingheatshield/pic5.jpg)
The lugs are actually on the manifold rather than the engine - so be careful not to drill through that s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
What you are aiming for is to drill out the whole bolt [edit] in the end, though as markiii says lopping the top off is enough to get the heat shield off[/edit].
I think Ekona was suggesting leaving the heat shield off altogether. If you're doing that then could could always just dremel off the head.
there is no way you are going to drill out teh whole bolt with a hand drill whuilst it's on teh car, without mullering teh threads
just take teh head off until it's off the car
Quote from: "markiii"there is no way you are going to drill out the whole bolt with a hand drill whuilst it's on the car, without mullering the threads
I did this on an old motorbike of mine - once enough of the metal came out of the 'core' of the bolt, the outside that remained fell apart and dropped out with a bit of poking around - and the threads were intact.
That said, that particular bolt wasn't as rusted up as this one seems to be.
Stu
You look to have drilled some distance into the head. Keep going for a bit and regularly twist it with whatever will fit and grip (spanner, socket - bashed on with a hammer, mole grips, stillsons, bolt removing tool) etc. Eventually, the head of the bolt will twist off et voila! Welcome to the reality of car maintenance s:D :D s:D It went in, so it WILL come out.
Right, update time!...
I've drilled the head off the left bolt (the worse one) and continue to feed the right bolt with the penetrating fluid, resigned to that fact i'm not gonna get this done today!
Now to add insult to injury, I've taken a look at the nxt two bolts....not good news....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/greenax/Photo-0558.jpg)
I'm feeling like THE most unlucky person when its coming to these precats!! s:( :( s:( that left one is literally rusted round!!
will the irvine kit tackle that then?? sounds like im gonna have to buy MORE tools!! s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "ad_car_08"will the irvine kit tackle that then?? sounds like I'm gonna have to buy MORE tools!! s:( :( s:(
Here's the kit (http://www.uktools.com/product_info.php?products_id=11525)
I'm embarking on pre-cat gutting tomorrow, so will probably share your frustration!
Stu
that makes no sense....irwin only do 10mm, 11mm and 13mm sockets......I NEED A BLUMMIN 12mm!!!!!!
.......i gotta laugh, i'd cry otherwise s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
they do an imperial size that fits
if it's a little smaller than you need just hammer it on, works better that way anyway
I know this is sooo easy to say, but my first step would be with a wire brush, preferably with an electric drill, but failing this by hand. This, because it's actually quite hard to see what is under the rust.
Then, loads of PlusGas and patience.
Then, you need a tool which really fits the bolt properly (am I allowed to say that ?).
If this doesn't work, then mole grips, stillsons etc.
If you can photo it like that then you must be able to get some sort of tool in there (probably not allowed to say that either s:D :D s:D ).
Quote from: "ad_car_08"Right, update time!...
I've drilled the head off the left bolt (the worse one) and continue to feed the right bolt with the penetrating fluid, resigned to that fact i'm not gonna get this done today!
Now to add insult to injury, I've taken a look at the nxt two bolts....not good news....
I'm feeling like THE most unlucky person when its coming to these precats!! s:( :( s:( that left one is literally rusted round!!
will the irvine kit tackle that then?? sounds like I'm gonna have to buy MORE tools!! s:( :( s:(
You think you have problems, you havent even started on the manifold bolts yet s:( :( s:(
You should have started with plus gas 10 days ago on every bolt
I also ripped my gasket, so I hope you have bought a new one
I hope you read the how to
m http://spyderchat.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43234 (http://spyderchat.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43234) m
Best of luck im sure we are all feeling for you
Pete
Quote from: ad_car_08that makes no sense....irwin only do 10mm, 11mm and 13mm sockets......I NEED A BLUMMIN 12mm!!!!!!
.......i gotta laugh, i'd cry otherwise s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
To be honest I wouldn't bother with them. I went through exactly the same frustrations as you. I bought a set and wasted my money.
It took me 2 days to get the heat shield off and had to cut a piece of the shield of to get at the last bolt.
Be patient it will come. but its not a quick job s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "MR2 New Boy"Quote from: "ad_car_08"that makes no sense....irwin only do 10mm, 11mm and 13mm sockets......I NEED A BLUMMIN 12mm!!!!!!
.......i gotta laugh, i'd cry otherwise s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
To be honest I wouldn't bother with them. I went through exactly the same frustrations as you. I bought a set and wasted my money.
It took me 2 days to get the heat shield off and had to cut a piece of the shield of to get at the last bolt.
Be patient it will come. but its not a quick job s:D :D s:D
Thanks for the words of encouragement MR2 new boy s:D :D s:D
It's beaten me for today, but I'll be back onto it Sunday! Hopefully finish it on Monday.
Peter, yeah I'm using that as my manual. It's such a valuable resource, the indepth description and pictures are perfect for the clueless like me!!
Hi All
A good tip for rusty/damaged nuts given to me by a mechanic is to apply a little dab of grinding paste on the offending item. If the rounding off is not too great the grit in the paste takes up the spaces and gives better grip. Coarse is probably better than fine!
I have used this with success in the past.
Regards
Daryl
HI all,
Well I've finally got the heat shield off and now tackling the bolts that hold the manifold onto the engine and the 3 amigo's.
This is getting beyond a joke! I've tried 14mm on the amigo, but that was a shade too big, and a 13mm was too small?! same sorry for imperial?!
As for the manifold-engine bolts, a 7/16 was too small, 12mm too small, 13mm too big....
What on earth are the sizes?!
The amigo bolts are 14mm, my manifold nuts were 12mm
i've tried a 14mm ring spanner on the amigo's but they seem slightly sloppy & made me worry about them rounding off
Yeah, you are right to be worried about rounding them off. I know this is obvious, but it sounds as if you need a socket which fits better. I'm assuming youv'e wire brushed it to get rid of the loose stuff and soaked it with PlusGas. It's all very 'softly softly' - tighten a bit then loosen a bit and better when hot etc, etc,.
So easy to say from a distance I know. (Bear in mind that a garage would just round the bolts, try an extractor, if necessary drill them out re-tap and, also if necessary, fit a new part - nought wrong with this but it can start to get expensive). Got a garage to fit a new uprated front roll bar to a Saab 9-5 last year and one of the bolts sheared so best to stick on in there!
Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
Well, I'm very pleased to say the manifold is now off, and precats are now gutted!! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: Without the help of a breaker bar & a can of WD40 to loosen those 3amigos, I'd still be there now!!
So armed with a hammer and flat head screwdriver, I've smashed and pulled out the precats and wadding. Then to make sure, I've steam cleaned the manifold to get rid of any residual precat dust. That'll do the trick won't it????
yep it should do
when reassembling put a little anti seize on teh 3 amigos, just in case you ever end up in there again
A happy ending. Well done matey.
Quote from: "spit"A happy ending. Well done matey.
I haven't put it back yet! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
but yeah a happy ending indeed, thanks to all those who offered help and encouragement!
Now thinking what the next project could be. Could do an oil change, but are there any other common faults that need sorting before i can breathe easy and enjoy my roadster???
(Apologies, just found this topic l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2248 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2248) l which didn't appear when I ran a search!)
Congrats on getting it off and gutted. Perseverance paid off s:D :D s:D
Cheers
Stu
Thanks Stu s:D :D s:D
Perseverance paid off indeed....plus the use of an extra pair of hands & brain!
Still looking for the next project to undertake... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "ad_car_08"plus the use of an extra pair of hands & brain!
Yes, I had these too - plus borrowed a well stocked garage! s:) :) s:)
sounds like deja-vue,my three amigos snapped off,had to drill and retap.had to dremel all five manifold nuts,took 8hrs to remove and prepare for refit.got worried when i saw smoke from my engine when i restarted it but it was just plusgas burning off!!
I really got used to this with old cars (late 50's - early 70's). You'd think it would be different with cars of our age.
Quote from: "ad_car_08"As for the manifold-engine bolts, a 7/16 was too small, 12mm too small, 13mm too big....
What on earth are the sizes?!
easy, rusted to hell sizes, you've lost material due to exfoliation of the outer layers, hence why the sockets dont fit, not that i condone it but hammering on a smaller size socket will help as someone has already said, just make sure its a hex(6 point) and not a bi hex socket (12 point). The irwin screw/stud extractors are good but if the dont work will give you fewer options later as they completely knacker the heads up
your best bet on fixing bolts like the heatshield ones is to just snap the head off, gring it down, drill it undersize then use a 1st and 2nd Tap. Using these crappy single size taps makes your life very hard as they arn't always designed to give you the ability to start the thread properly, a descent tap set will have a starter tap(1st) and then a second to finish off the threaded hole.
any suggestions for one of these "Good" tap sets stu
mine is pretty crap
Quote from: "markiii"when reassembling put a little anti seize on the 3 amigos, just in case you ever end up in there again
OMG! They won't grow back, will they? s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
:-) :-) :-) modding this car is addictive, you'll be in there again in time
And after you've done it on this 2, you'll be doing it on the next one! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: