If you've seen anything of my Apexi turbo thread you'll have read last that I'm off to get mapped this Thursday at Noble.
Before that though, I'm taking bets as to how much umph the thing will make. The spec is below, anybody who gets either figure spot on is welcome to a bottle of beer in the post. What do we think???
2003 MR2 Roadster, UK car, 6sp manual, 34k miles.
1.8 1zz VVTI, completely stock.
Apexi AX53B60 turbo kit fitted, comprises an IHI ball bearing turbo, with both oil and coolant lines (used).
Apexi Power Intake cone filter (new).
Greddy e-manage blue piggyback ecu (used), connected via Boomslang harness (new).
Haywood & Scott race cat (used, came with kit).
Magnex cat back silencer (went on new at 31k).
310cc 2zz injectors (used, but cleaned and flow tested prior).
NGK BKR6E spark plugs, standard gapped at 0.9mm (new).
Hallman Pro RX manual boost controller (new).
O2 sensor modification (done on Boomslang), now running off just one, bung in downpipe, sensor still connected and in engine bay for heater circuit requirement.
Bailey motorsport atmosphere BOV (used, came with kit).
Silkolene 10w50 fully synthetic oil (changed to with new oil filter when kit fitted).
The installation has no intake cooling at present.
I have asked Noble to explore mapping the kit up to 10psi on the day, though I am aware intake temps may become an issue, if so a happy medium would be acceptable.
I'll go for 235 bhp @ 11psi
well you got to start somewhere! s:) :) s:)
Before scrolling down I would have said 235bhp. I'm now going to say 236bhp s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
vvt-i made about that with a PE turbo and emanage tuned at Noble so could even come in a bit higher as the Apexi turbo is a little bigger I think
Phil
220 before heat becomes an issue
I'll go for 211bhp.
227.75 s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
As I got 234 my guess will be 240 at or around 10psi.
WHP or fwhp? Dyno Dynamics dyno?
Ill go for 205 bhp on a dyno dynamics, possibly 210 fwhp.
Quote from: "markiii"220 before heat becomes an issue
I missed the lack of intercooler. Which reminds me I should bump my charge cooler sale s;-) ;-) s;-)
Phil
This is one day out in the '2 when you hope for it to be really cold and damp s:D :D s:D
I'm was worried about chasing power by going for that extra boost, which the hardware (cars and turbos) may or may not be able to handle.
That's why I had my PPE locked down at 5psi. You might like to consider something similar, then if everything works OK, and you still want more, open it up and go for another tune.
For the record, at the 5psi I got 200bhp without chargecooler, 220bhp with. More than enough for me s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
On that basis, and with no cooling, you might get 235 @ 10 psi before something melts / breaks / comes apart.
220bhp at 5 psi on a PE is a fabulous result Rog
Quote from: "roger"I'm was worried about chasing power by going for that extra boost, which the hardware (cars and turbos) may or may not be able to handle.
That's why I had my PPE locked down at 5psi. You might like to consider something similar, then if everything works OK, and you still want more, open it up and go for another tune.
For the record, at the 5psi I got 200bhp without chargecooler, 220bhp with. More than enough for me s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
On that basis, and with no cooling, you might get 235 @ 10 psi before something melts / breaks / comes apart.
What dyno was that on? seems a good figure.
Quote from: "Ilogik"What dyno was that on? seems a good figure.
Hypersport, as was. No idea of make/model
Quote from: "roger"On that basis, and with no cooling, you might get 235 @ 10 psi before something melts / breaks / comes apart.
Hmmm s:( :( s:( , the last thing I'm looking for is to stress it close to failure.....
I'm not actually after trophy output figures, anything north of 200hp & 200lb ft will be just fine at this stage.
The main reason I've indicated a desire to map up to 10psi was because I thought that could be towards the upper limit of what would still be within operational limits for the set up as is. I'm hoping Noble will be able to tell me at what point psi-wise the car is producing best power without dangerous stress/heats levels. Question now is will they be able to do that???
I'd expect Noble to squeeze out some more horseys than Hypersports would have. The evidence suggests they usually do
Phil
17?
Quote from: "evileye_xc"I'd expect Noble to squeeze out some more horseys than Hypersports would have. The evidence suggests they usually do
Phil
Hypersports could have done. It was agreed with me we would limit it to 5psi. Its words like "sqeeze" and "upper limit" that frighten me. The straw that breaks the camels back, and all that.
Still I'm sure Noble know what they are doing, so if you have any concerns make it very clear to them. IMO instructions like " get all you can out of it" gives them the OK to go too far. Make sure you qualify any such statement.
Quote from: "roger"Quote from: "evileye_xc"I'd expect Noble to squeeze out some more horseys than Hypersports would have. The evidence suggests they usually do
Phil
Hypersports could have done. It was agreed with me we would limit it to 5psi. Its words like "sqeeze" and "upper limit" that frighten me. The straw that breaks the camels back, and all that.
Still I'm sure Noble know what they are doing, so if you have any concerns make it very clear to them. IMO instructions like " get all you can out of it" gives them the OK to go too far. Make sure you qualify any such statement.
I don't think they would go over the top, Noble always give the impression of safety first and set the car accordingly. They will do a very good job as did Hypersport in their hey-day, although the dyno reading can be a little different s:flame: :flame: s:flame:
Rob
Well I hope it runs like it should and gives you the drive you are after Andrew. The kit itself is superb, so it should give over 200 reasonably. Apart from the safety aspect, which has been spoken about, I'd always plump for maximum driveability. It should deliver in that department. If I'm going to join in the predictions, I reckon 217 bhp and 202 lbft, with a smile that will stretch easily from ear to ear. s:) :) s:)
Right then, day of reckoning arrived, mapping session completed, results as below.
It was an OK day..........
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/NobleMapping.jpg)
Who am I kidding, it was pretty damn good day, 230hp at 7psi at max revs (it also gets close at 6400rpm) and 200 lbft at 4735rpm s:D :D s:D .
Darren Wynn (Mapping Technician) at Noble really does seem to be able to release those ponnies s8) 8) s8) .
Though in typical turbo fashion, one problem solved, another created. Anybody recommend a good clutch????? (as mine is now slipping, though not all the time).
Now do I owe anybody a beer?
The ACT clutches are excellent.
Quote from: "AC"Right then, day of reckoning arrived, mapping session completed, results as below.
It was an OK day..........
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/NobleMapping.jpg)
Who am I kidding, it was pretty damn good day, 230hp at 7psi at max revs (it also gets close at 6400rpm) and 200 lbft at 4735rpm s:D :D s:D .
Darren Wynn (Mapping Technician) at Noble really does seem to be able to release those ponnies s8) 8) s8) .
Though in typical turbo fashion, one problem solved, another created. Anybody recommend a good clutch????? (as mine is now slipping, though not all the time).
Now do I owe anybody a beer?
Hi mate, how desperate are you for the clutch? I will be selling my TRD one, which is in good condition. Looking for £150 delivered?
Will be coming off the car in a few weeks, not sure which one it is, as I never got to see it. But it will be checked once off and ill get some pics for you.
m http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm (http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm) m
Quote from: "Ilogik"Hi mate, how desperate are you for the clutch? I will be selling my TRD one, which is in good condition. Looking for £150 delivered?
Will be coming off the car in a few weeks, not sure which one it is, as I never got to see it. But it will be checked once off and ill get some pics for you.
m http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm (http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm) m
PM me when you have it off (the clutch that is s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ).
Cheers,
Andrew.
Quote from: "AC"Quote from: "Ilogik"Hi mate, how desperate are you for the clutch? I will be selling my TRD one, which is in good condition. Looking for £150 delivered?
Will be coming off the car in a few weeks, not sure which one it is, as I never got to see it. But it will be checked once off and ill get some pics for you.
m http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm (http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm) m
PM me when you have it off (the clutch that is s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ).
Cheers,
Andrew.
aw you got me excited s:oops: :oops: s:oops: :p
Quote from: "AC"Quote from: "Ilogik"Hi mate, how desperate are you for the clutch? I will be selling my TRD one, which is in good condition. Looking for £150 delivered?
Will be coming off the car in a few weeks, not sure which one it is, as I never got to see it. But it will be checked once off and ill get some pics for you.
m http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm (http://www.fensport.co.uk/products.htm) m
PM me when you have it off (the clutch that is s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ).
Cheers,
Andrew.
don't get too excited we've been here before
Quote from: "AC"230hp at 7psi at max revs
Is that definitely 7psi, not 0.7bar?
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Is that definitely 7psi, not 0.7bar?
Hmmm, you got me thinking now. I'm presuming its psi as all the conversations I had with the mapping technician, including over the produced chart, were in psi on the subject of boost. I'll check and confirm.
10psi sounds more realistic than 7psi for that figure I guess, but then I'd expect cooling to be a much greater issue for boost that high... I dunno.
Awsome figures either way mate you must be over the moon.
Quote from: "Dan M"10psi sounds more realistic than 7psi for that figure I guess, but then I'd expect cooling to be a much greater issue for boost that high... I dunno.
One point I did try to make clear was to map the car for a safe set up with intake temps in particular being of concern (having no cooling). I was told they reached the 70's during runs which is high (apparently anything over 40 and your wasting power) but not dangerously high so I was told.
Quote from: "E"Awsome figures either way mate you must be over the moon.
Yeah, to say I was pleasantly surprised is an elephant sized understatement. It's flying s:D :D s:D , but also slipping the clutch noticeably s:( :( s:( . Pleasure and pain.
Well done Andrew, really pleasing result there. s8) 8) s8)
ACT clutch works well for me as well. Very user friendly.
Good figures, well done. As for a clutch I'm useing the exeedy one.. it's coping fine with my 234bhp, no issues at all.
Nice results!! s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
thats a good figure you have gotta be happy with that!! Get the clutch sorted and you will have a superb car :-) :-) :-)
Enjoy the turbo!!
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Is that definitely 7psi, not 0.7bar?
Having checked it is indeed bar and not psi, so boost is running 7.25psi through 8.7 up to 10psi at max revs (the creep after 6000rpm is wastegate related, its close to needing porting apparently).
Off to Noble this afternoon for a second mapping session now the chargecooler is fitted (what a PITA that was). Didn't manage to give any beer away last time but as previous anybody who nails either figure exactly can have a Brahma in the post on me.
Changes since first mapping are;
New LUK upratred clutch.
440cc Denso Injectors (from Exige).
4x6 PWR charge cooler kit (and now BOV-less).
I'll tell Noble to pursue up to 1 bar pressure if it helps get the best balance, but tbh boost may well remain untouched and just fueling combined with a cooled charge used to set the tune.
Anyway, how much do we think it will make???
I reckon more than 12psi it will be a heat pump so I wouldn;t go any further
I reckon you should equal my old HAss based on results so far
So I'm going to say 270bhp at 10 PSI
I'm going to say 262bhp and 238lbft. Hope it all goes well in any event Andrew! s:D :D s:D
I am going with 266
257bhp and 230lb/ft.
s:D :D s:D
s:) :) s:) s:) :) s:) s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:o :o s:o s:o :o s:o s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:P :P s:P s:P :P s:P s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Apologies for the total disregard and abuse of smilies, but I have something very big to smile about...............
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/ac-pics/NobleMappingv2.jpg)
Yep, you read right, 272bhp and 247lbft torque, boosting up to 12.7psi. s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: . Just look at the before and after (before is dotted line), 60 lbft torque added at 3500rpm s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: .
I can only conclude the Apexi turbo is an underrated piece of kit, add the right sized injectors and a PWR CC then visit Noble for Darren Wynn's mapping skills and the results, are, well, pretty good. It doesn't hang about now, I can tell you that much s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .
Looks good mate, would like to see a Dyno Dynamics run.
Does the E-manage monitor knock levels at all?
Doesn't really matter what dyno its run on, as the comparison of before and after is plain to see.
Marvellous result Andrew, I always thought that was one ace piece of kit.
Ay not knocking it, would like to see it on a dyno dynamics dyno though.
Quote from: "Ilogik"Ay not knocking it, would like to see it on a dyno dynamics dyno though.
You'd need a before and after on your DDD for it to be of any relevance.
AC, fantatsic result!
Fantastic numbers, well done!
Now thats a definate result, you must be over the moon. s8) 8) s8)
You have gotta be happy with that :-) :-) :-) well done !!!
Wow what a result s8) 8) s8)
Nice work Andrew, thats a helluva jump from an already cracking position.
Nice one Andy - great result I would say. Just take your time s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Rob
Thanks guys.
Yeah I'm really pleased with the result, the performance is just staggering, exactly like a turbo should be. Its been a fair old drag to get to this, in time, trouble and expense but after this result I can honestly say the turbo route is worth pursuing. I wasn't so sure prior to it.
Some interesting comments came out of 2nd mapping; Noble reckon the E-manage software isn't that precise, after I swapped the 310 injctors to the 440's and worked out the correction factor the car on boost was running an AFR of 14.9 s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . So anybody swapping injectors out are wisely advised to re-map before running on boost. At stage 1 the 310's were the bottleneck though, with the 440's more than enough fuel throughout, no pressure issues and now no wastegate creep, in fact the reverse. The airflow adjustment has now been zero'd so its just timing and fueling as far as the E-manage is concerned. Intake temps aren't known as the MAF is pre turbo, but the CC stayed stone cold throughout. As creep is no longer an issue the wastegate actuator is set to 0.5 bar with the manual boost controller taking it up to 0.87 bar. On the power runs it pulled to the limiter, 7029rpm curiously, with no problems. Took Noble just 2 hours to achieve this.
I have to say the set-up feels sweet, smooth off boost, starts pulling after 2500rpm with useful urge and at/after 3000rpm the harder you press the gas the more savage the delivery. In this weather 1st, 2nd and even 3rd on occassion have limited use as the wheels just spin up if pressing the gas pedal past moderately. I've been short shifting around 5000 as even that feels obscene. Caution is certainly advised, I'm treading carefully.
Quote from: "AC"the car on boost was running an AFR of 14.9 s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . .
No problems there, 14.7 is the most efficient.
under boost, you want to be running much richer than 14.7 rog. s:) :) s:)