I went out in the car last night, experimenting with my GTECH, so needless to say I was exercising the car shall we say. Anyways I got back, and the car stank of oil in the interior. And when reving at idle it sounded really wheezy, almost like a supercharger whine. I've searched for whines but no one seems to have mentioned it before.
Also After checking my oil, it seems to be a lot darker than when i've looked at it previously. Maybe i'm being paranoid..but Take a look at the pic and see if you think the oil looks dark.. It's not losing any oil incidentally.
m http://www.SpyderMagazine.com/files/oil.jpg (http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/oil.jpg) m
Cheers,
errr.... looks like its due for a change!
Doesn't look overly dark to me. The wheezing noise and oil smell could be because one of the PCV hoses has come adrift (PCV stands for Positive Crankcase Vacuum), and is allowing the oil fumes to find its way into the car.
If the PCV is lost, oil is no longer drawn up into the engine properly, resulting in a lack of lubrication to the top-end (cam shafts etc).
This is a worse case scenario, but should be considered based on the description you have given thus far.
HTH
Thanks for the replies and the diagnosis Steve, I've booked it in so i'll see how i get on.
Cheers,
Mike
Quote from: "SteveJ"Doesn't look overly dark to me. The wheezing noise and oil smell could be because one of the PCV hoses has come adrift (PCV stands for Positive Crankcase Vacuum), and is allowing the oil fumes to find its way into the car.
If the PCV is lost, oil is no longer drawn up into the engine properly, resulting in a lack of lubrication to the top-end (cam shafts etc).
This is a worse case scenario, but should be considered based on the description you have given thus far.
HTH
surely not?
he PCV is teir to extract vapor and prevent excess pressure build up.
It's teh job of the oil pump to get the oil up there. Incidentally, Martin ha his blocked off, and hasn't reported problems with it.
Well just took it in to Mr T today...and things have got a lot worse..it's absolutely eating oil and what's left of it is really black and gloopy.
Furthermore it doesn't rev easily past 4k anymore, seems really laboured as if has an extra person, and more on board all the time.
A tech had a look at it this afternoon, and said yeah the oil is not good..and that he noticed that there is hardly any exhaust gasses coming out the back...he thinks it may be the exhaust gasket. I'm just praying that's it's not the cats, as the car seems to have a few of the symptoms...
I'm really not amused by all this, and feel absolutely gutted. As though I've just found out that my fiancé used to be a man. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: It was a major struggle to buy the car in the first place...and now I feel really disillusioned with it. you buy a new car so it won't have these problems..the only consolation is the warranty will cover it...and I'm getting new disks..
Oh well what can you do..so I'm 2 less for a week...and not sure what state my car is in. I know I'll get it back and it'll be fine..but it doesn't half dent your feelings toward it!
Nightmare
don't wan't to worry you but those are all symtoms of cat failure.
though you will be teh first 03 to my knowledge if you are
Quote from: "Mikeharper2"I've just found out that my fiancé used to be a man.
...I had to go back and read this a few times...
your blitz kit, is it just teh filter or the full mesh cone jobby?
make sure they inspect your pre-cats and document what they find..
Yeah I know Mark..all the syptoms are there..i'm just praying it's not that and it's something 'relatively' simple...the Blitz is just an element not an induction kit.
What astounds me is that despite niggling doubts about oil consumption...there has been nothing wrong with the car. Hell I was doing 0-60 runs in the mid sixes last week..and now this...
Guttted..
Sorry to hear it Mike s:( :( s:( I'd tend to agree with Mark, too.. s:( :( s:(
*makes mental note to check oil at the weekend
Group buy on PPE headers for when our warranties run out, anyone?
Quote from: "aaronjb"Group buy on PPE headers for when our warranties run out, anyone?
Funny you should say that, I was thinking the same thing... although I'm tempted to just gut the pre-cats.
Quote from: "Slacey"Quote from: "aaronjb"Group buy on PPE headers for when our warranties run out, anyone?
Funny you should say that, I was thinking the same thing... although I'm tempted to just gut the pre-cats.
True - that's a lot cheaper than going for the PPE.. But not half as nice or flash..
Lets not do that GB for a while though, I just handed my notice in at work! s:D :D s:D
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I love how you guys can make a potentially very bad situation seem so much better...
GB on the PPE...sounds like a plan!!!
I hate to jump on the Toyota service are absolutely crap bandwagon..but man are they crap. I just rang up to ask how my car was doing..and whether they had diagnosed anything.."it's just in the workshop now it needs some parts, we'll call you when it's ready" Okay what parts does it need I said "oh i dont know". Erm could you find someone who does then. Guy calls me back and says it needs a whole new exhaust/cats etc and "did I want the twin one again?" What ? nah it's okay mate i'll forego the £500 that i paid 6 months ago. s:x :x s:x
I then said I want a call back from someone who can answer me the following, why on earth it needs a new exhaust..i could maybe understand the Ex manifold/cats etc..but not why it needs a new pipe etc..why its consuming oil, why it's making noises, and why it won't accelerate..
No word back yet..I think i'm gonna go back and lay the smack down
Right this time I'm gonna jump and ride the Toyota service sucks bandwagon all day..I am absolutely seething s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: first of all..
[removed text]
Well as you will know I dropped my car off at Toyota Pinkstones last fri. The tech had a look at it and said yeah most likely pre cats. The disks also needed changing, which they agreed
I rang the other day to check how the work was going, and had a [removed text] girl at the other end of the phone. I said I wanted a call from a tech who could explain EXACTLY what was wrong with my car as I said I wanted the pre-cats looking at..and the oil problem
Same girl rings up, work is all done Mr Harper. Ready to pick up. Okay so what been done I say again.." i'll just get your sheet..disks..we've replaced your oil, and there is no problem with the revs we had it on a machine". I love that term, well who am I to argue with a machine? I said so what, it wasn't throwing any codes it wouldn't say anything. I asked you to look at the pre-cats.
So i said once again let me speak to a tech as there is a problem with the revs etc. She wouldn't let me and said they were too busy. I held for 20 minutes. As I've left the car close to home as i didn't want to drive it back up to Lancs I've had to get my dad to pick it up.
Again he asked whats up with it...no-one seemingly knows..other than some parts were ordered and now its fixed. Oh and the disks that were agreed to be fixed? Well they have sprayed over the rust on 2 out of the 4 disks. I told my dad to refuse to take it home. So its sitting there. I've told them that unless a tech gets back to me I'm going to contact Toyota UK. Still no call.
I am absolutely livid. I don't know what the hell they have done..if anything at all. My impression is they have done absolutely nothing apart from change the oil, and 'spray' the edges of the disks. In which case the car will still be on its death bed.
Should I take it to another dealer? Or wait for the regional service manager to call in the garage and meet him?
[admin edit (mph): removed text for legal reasons]
if you haven't already speak to teh aftersales manager at your dealership, and explain to him what you want to know. and why you want to know it, if mentioning that other people have had problems and he asks where mention the owners club,DO NOT use the word internet. Dealers are wary of scare stories that appear on teh internet they won't realise the resource you have at your disposal just happens to be internet based.
be resonable and calm. I know you won't feel like it but trust me it will help.
most customers ata Toyota dealer don't care about all teh stuff we do. Lets face a Yaris owner just drives it. They aren't used to having to cope with people who often know more than they do.
Thanks Mark, I'm just frustrated because the service lady doesn't seem to understand why I would want to know what they have found out..it's fixed after all!!
If they haven't called byEOP today I will call the service manager tomorrow morning.
Thanks again
Mike, just out of interest, whats your mileage?
A trully unbelievably low 6500 miles.... s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: 6 months of driving
That's scary - our has done about 7700 (2003 model as well) - haven't seen any dodgy signs yet (touch wood). Better get a move on getting the TRD header before anything happens.
Well just got off the phone with the service manager, who to be fair was rather excellent. I think he realised I was rather annoyed, the person on service earlier had the audacity to say "all the disks have been repaired, (Sprayed!) it's just that he's powerhosed the car and knocked the paint off two, they were all done earlier"
Anyways the pre-cat on the left bank had fractured, luckily I caught it early, and according to the service manager there is no debris in the main cat. Both pre-cats have been replaced as a matter of course. I'm debating whether to argue the toss and get them to replace the main one as well..
Anyways something struck me, when I was on the phone I mentioned Optimax and he was adamant not to use it. He didn't really give any reasons as to why..but subsequently searching on here it seems that a few people who use super and optimax have had problems. John Woodward stands out as he said how great it was like me only to have problems later on.. As people will know I am an avid supporter of Optimax..but I'm changing my mind now. I'm thinking that as it is ultimately additives that give it this octane rating, one of them is most probably lead. If this is the case its likely to go straight to the cats..
My car has had a diet of absolutely nothing but Optimax since it was bought..and the pre cat has gone after only 6000 miles...Whilst i'm not suggesting that it's the petrol only, I think it may exacerbate the weak pre-cat problem.
I'm also interested in whether the 98 no is the Research Octane no or the Motor Octane no..does anyone know?? The only slight problem with this theory is that the pre-cat problem seems to be more frequent in America...where the octane rating is lower...
It's just so strange..I've been anal about not hitting the limiter..not going over 3500 rpm till the oil is up to temp..and the car couldn't have been looked after any better...
Mike,
sounds like a distinct improvement then.
When you say the Pre-cat had fractured, if it's just got a crack then I wouldn't worry about teh main cat.
If it has bits missing I'd press for it.
ref you octane rating comment, you may be aware but teh US use a different octane rating to us so it's not directly comparable
US is RON/MON IIRC wheres as we just quote RON
No there was just a crack in it apparently..no bits missing which could possibly explain why there was no 'white debris' in the exhaust that has been identified so often.
What i'm still unsure about is if there was a crack..why would there be no back pressure as previously identified by a tech..this would indicate to me that it was clogged..and not merely cracked. It's unfortunate i wasn't there to have a look at the removed cat, as a result of the garbled communication between the service desk and the techs.
The oil has been changed so i'm going to keep a hawks eye on it for the time being..
Do you think there could be anything in the petrol theory Mark?
Funnily enough I can't seem to find a break down of what is in Optimax..Whilst I appreciate the octane number represents the resistance of the fuel to knock, and should in theory be better for the engine..what worries me is the additives put in to make it this rating..which could maybe be part of the problem. Thinking about it, two mechanics have said to me don't put Optimax in.
ref teh backpressure I must admit that baffles me. it may just be more waffle.
lack of oil would in itself make teh car feel sluggish as teh timing gear is oil pressure controlled.
ref the petrol theory, I get very confused to be honest by all teh stuff regarding octane and calorific value versus reistance to knock and all that. However, the cats are very heat sensitive, anything that cause the engine to burn hotter will excacerbate the problem.
also interesting that the crack was in teh lft hand bank, that 3 now with teh problem on the klft and no damage to teh right.
Steve and I were discussing this the other night with regard to cylinder 1 running hotter due to the way teh fuel rail is put together and whethe this is connected.
adds more fuel to teh argument so to speak. :-) :-) :-)
QuoteFunnily enough I can't seem to find a break down of what is in Optimax.
I imagine this will be a closely guarded secret as Shell will not want to give away their product's 'formula' so to speak.
I reckon they are trying to divert your attention away from your poor experience with their merchandise with the Optimax issue. I have used the stuff exclusively from new and am 26.7K and have no engine performance problems. Just a small issue of tracking down an irrating noise from elsewhere on lift-off ... damn T gremlins s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
I wonder what state the O2 sensors were in? They must surely show symptoms much like a sparkplug will do re: engine conditions.
http://www.apbw47.dsl.pipex.com/O2.jpg
Well I presume they must have been okay..as it didn't throw any codes when I had it..that surprised me.
I know what you mean about Optimax Lusaka, it's just that two people..a mechanic on my dads car and now this guy has said about it. I'm not sure why out of the blue he said that..
Mark where is the fuel rain connected then?
I getting serious fear now - our 2 has only ever been run on Optimax! I'll have to keep close scrutiny on ours until I change the header.
T'is a tough one to prove on the petrol front.
Presuming no contamination on the O2 sensor to give a clue, maybe just a faulty pre-cat? s:? :? s:?
Fuel rail I believe sits above intake manifold on the far side of the engine as you are looking at it, but Mark knows quite a bit about the engine so should be able to put me right.
I wouldn't worry Rusty, it's just a thought I had..nothing definitive. I've bought Optimax on every occasion I filled up. To be honest I never thought about it..and just thought highest RON rating that'll do..but its not that simple. It worries me a bit that we don't know what the additives are to make it this RON, the most common one being Tetraethyl Lead which could potentially damage the cats.
Although as Mark said above, the pre-cat which seems to be going is the one which is closest to the hottest cylinder. If your using a higher octane performance fuel like optimax then you would assume that the RVP (reid pressure value) will be higher and thus the heat given off will be greater..and perhaps cause the problems in the pre cat..admittedly the heat difference between a regular fuel and a performance fuel would be negligible.
It's a tenuous link..but a link all the same
I know I won't put Optimax in again
Quote from: "Mikeharper2"Well I presume they must have been okay..as it didn't throw any codes when I had it..that surprised me.
I know what you mean about Optimax Lusaka, it's just that two people..a mechanic on my dads car and now this guy has said about it. I'm not sure why out of the blue he said that..
Mark where is the fuel rain connected then?
the fuel rai has an input at teh far end, which means in theory fuel will get to some cylinders beter than others. Which could in theory see a cylinder getting less fuel than another.
however as the 02 sensors should compensate on closed loop, in open loop they take a nap. so it could be possible under wot that a cylinder gets less fuel than others and hence runs hotter.
there is a guy on SC who has had fabbed a replacement rail with a centre feed which is supposed to give better fuel dispersal, it laos is suitable for a return line conversion which some turbo kits require.
all speculation at this point.
Is this the same setup in the Celica 140? I presume the pre-cats would not be in the same place being front engined..are there still the pre-cat problems in the celica? If not that would indicate to me that your theory has an element of truth Mark
The fuel rail on teh celica is identical.
the pre-cats aren't
the Celica is a LEV (Low emissions Vehicle) The roadster is a ULEV (Ultra Low Emmisions Vehicle)
as such the Celica manifold has no precats.
Sorry this may have been discussed before..so if you weren't in the market for a performance manifold, and just wanted to get rid of the pre-cats then presumably the Celica 140 manifold could be a direct replacement?
My point is that i don't want the pre-cats going again...I know they would have a warranty problem with a performance manifold..how could they have a warranty problem with a toyota part designed for the engine?
Quote from: "Mikeharper2"Sorry this may have been discussed before..so if you weren't in the market for a performance manifold, and just wanted to get rid of the pre-cats then presumably the Celica 140 manifold could be a direct replacement?
Nope - the shape of the manifold will be different due to a different engine bay layout
Damn..I thought that could have been an easy solution to my pre-cat woes
as steve said will be different.
that on the 2zz celica fouls the rear crossmember and I assume so would the 1zz celica.
plus it has no o2 sensors in the manifold so you'd need a new ecu as well.
not good at £2000 or so.
easiest is to gut the stock manifold that would effect your warranty though.
Well after thinking my car was absolutely fine again..after having the pre-cats replaced as i've mentioned before, it seems a different set of syptoms are appearing.
There is no oil loss, unlike before, and the performance seems great..
But there are large deposits of white debris, akin to powder appearing in the tailpipes. Now the car has done..500 miles since they were replaced..they cannot surely be breaking up again? I presume it may be the remnants from the previous cat problems...
As I said there are no other problems..I think I'll buy an 02 socket and check them when I get chance..I wish the car was out of waranty so I could get rid of the buggers..
Anyways appologies for the crappy pic I don't have my cam software here to download a pic, so this is off my phone..Doesn't look good does it?
m http://www.SpyderMagazine.com/files/mikpic.jpg (http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/mikpic.jpg) m
Cheers for any advice
Take it back, The white debris is this stuff:
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat6.jpg)
It could well be left over from your previous cat failure, but it could also be from a new event. My bet is that its debris from the old precat that is now boucing around in the main cat. It'll bounce around and break down due to vibration over time, (its extremely brittle - you can break bits off just touching it) and end up coming out of your exhasut as white dust. Not catastrophic by any means, but not good either
That mound of white powder reminds me of this...
(http://www.posterplanet.net/images/scarfacecoke.jpg)
Thanks for the info Grant, thats what i presumed it was also... given there are no other problems and symptoms i'm hoping its okay. I'll try and find an 02 socket and have a look myself tonight.
I'll arrange an appointement with Mr T as well, I predict another battle coming on.."white powder? thats just solidified emissions" or some similar rot
if it is cat particles, then it could be the pre-cats or it could be the main cat.
either way I'd be wanting that replaced as well.
Well as you know Mark its had the pre-cats replaced, and was told that the main cat was fine..however at the time I mentioned I was sceptical. Still looking around for an 02 socket once I've checked the pre-cats i'll take it from there..I didn't realise the main cat was susceptible as well?
the main cat isn't suceptable to the original problem, but if bits of pre-cat and oil get that far you can kill it. Whether it is made of teh same stuff I'm not sure, but with everything else they replaced they should have done teh main cat as well.
theres a few guys in teh states in teh same situation as you. not replacing teh main cat cause a repeat of teh problem and long termcost toyot more money .
Very true, thanks for the advice Mark