..
153 Haiwaii was selling his cheap on SC if you have a look. I believe that it was never installed.
I've also had terrible communication with MTTE no delivery ETA for my short shifter or any response at all. I am tempted to cancel my order if he ever reads his emails.
If you rule out the TTE, then teh PE probably is the best of teh bunch.
On a manual it can be pretty much a bolt on solution, see mrs_turbo's install. Though preferably it still needs a proper dyno mapping.
The price is alos good.
the downside as far as I am are concerned is the 02 sensor placement. 1 02 after the turbo isn't ideal. TTe solution should be sligjt;y better.
Pe doesn't come with an intercooler, TTE does. PE will void your warranty, TTE won't.
I'll be waiting for the TTE. I hope we will see it soon, but i'd prefer to wait as its a much better deal.
If not then i'd go with the PE.
..
i would be more inclined to go with the PE as TTE seam to be kicking there heels a little as with the price of $4000 and the interest rate the way it is you cant go wrong.
Fueling is a issue but give it to a decent Tunner and put it on the rollinf road for a few hours and it will perform just as well as the TTe in my opinon
Yeah thats only about £2000 right now, thats a bargain.
Millway charge about 2k for fitting and tunning... I almost tempted myself...
..
Perry, Having applied all of 30mS of thought to your conundrum, I'd say go for it...
You only live once, and if you dont do it your Mrs. will only make you spend it on a new kitchen anyway. Either way, you'll be down by £4 grand. Buy the turbo, and remember that Tesco's sell microwaves for £50 these days... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "perry190"I';ve looked at Apexi etc but there still appear to be fuelling issues
What issues? s:? :? s:?
Or do you just mean that the stock injectors and ECu can't handle it? s8) 8) s8)
I've been looking at Apexi myself, but will wait for the TTE before making any decisions. Apexi comes with intercooler and roller bearing turbo...and can be had from US for $3200:
m http://www.garagegt.com/shop/scripts/pr ... tegory=608 (http://www.garagegt.com/shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=608) m
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if i was you i would still go for an intercooler ! more reliabilty for the Turbo is what a lot of my whizzy mates say ! so im going with that LOL
Also you could either get a small battery no wories there so that the normall intercooler will fit or go somwhere like a skyline Tuner's where they will make you one fore around £400 ! sound a lot but they will provide tubing and all fit it for that !
..
You've got to think that £2k either comes from them not wanting the job or the fact that they know it's not as simple as it sounds - I believe Millway ended up doing a lot of development with Martin above and beyond what comes in the turbo kits..
Probably worth speaking to Martin about that, though (I'm sure he'll appear shortly, I've mentioned his name.. s;) ;) s;) )
actually fitting the urbo is easy.
hand tools and some time and you could do it yourself.
wiring in the piggyback is harde but again not rocket science.
Making it all work and tuning it is where the talent is.
The fact that Martins doing an SMT, and full custom exhaust e.t.c is adding complications that aren't inherent to the kit itself.
would imagine that for 2k Monkeywrench will tune it on teh car for you as well. Not jus go with the stock maps.
..
001 then drop their first 0 if they have one.
Quote from: "perry190"The PE works out at about $4000 inc full kit, greddy e-manage pre-programmed and freight to the UK. All items are in stock and ready to go.
The intercooler is required for boost over 4.5psi which ups it by another $1100 + $140 for a fuel pump (required if over 4.5 psi)
I dont expect any warranty issues with the dealer I use as he is very understanding "what turbo" s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
TTE would be my preferred option however the time scales for a Toyota warrantied turbo seem very very vague????
I ran for 10months with no intercooler at 6.5psi with my PE and pre-programmed e-manage. No need for bigger injectors, pump or anything at 6.5psi not 4.5psi. At 4.5psi it is stated and tested by PE that the stock ECU can handle the pressure, but i for 1 would rather have the ability to adjust things right.
4.5 psi isn't enough power really,so the TTE turbo will leave you wanting more IMO so you'll turn it up and bye bye warranty,or you'll wait 3years knowing there's so much more potential available but it's untouchable. Intercooler wise that is alot of money, check out the aquamist at £500 it works excellent or ring these guys they will custom build you a chargecooler for not much more.
m http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/automotive-parts.shtml (http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/automotive-parts.shtml) m
Was going to have 1 done but the aquamist is just so good on it's own.
The PE can be fitted in an afternoon EASY with a simple bag 'o' spanners and a trolley jack. The maps MWR give work great, if it's alot cheaper for a non pre-programmed unit i can give you their maps.
teh TTE is rated at 180-200 BHP so while you may want more, it's going to be seriously quick just with that.
on another note, Perry have you looked at insurance for the Turbo conversion?
Cause you will. That's only flywheel power and a bet it's alot nearer the 180bhp at 4.5psi. The power increase is amazing from 4.5 upto 6.5psi.
In my opinion if you can be bothered to pay out all that money for extra POWER then you'll want the best out of it. 4.5psi isn't it.
This is my opinion ONLY if you think that 3.5k for 40-50bhp is good then great, go for it.
..
bang for buck, I don't disagree.
big issues with the TTE,
a) I can get insured at very little extra cost (including the value of the kit)
b) The 02 sensors are better placed
c) Intercooler included
d) full consequential warranty, if it blows your engine up they will cover it.
e) won't affect the warranty of the car itself.
now bare in mind that this is with the stock main cat and exhaust.
you could probably realise another 20bhp by changing these elements.
Quote from: "perry190"Cheers guys
Ref Insurance no i havnt, but to be truthful I'm with with a very mod friendly insurer (DIG) and I'm an old fart with 9 years no claims so the rise should be negligable. To be honest I'll pay what I have to as the car although great does not perform to match its looks, no gain without pain unfortunately s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm assuming that I will also need a boost controller and turbo timer as well on top of these costs? also did you uprate your fuel pump in the end?
Boost controller, well you can get a manual bleed valve for hardly anything, but if you do go the e-manage route then you know you'll want the profec EBC.Turbo timer, if you like and are impatient and don't want to sit with the car for a few mins while it cools down.Fuel pump well it's on my to do list(see sig) but this is only because i'm going up on the psi scale s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
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Quote from: "perry190"Thats right, if you go for the Apexi, as far as I understand it you still need to purchase the Greddy E-manage or similar, also the Intercooler doesnt fit a UK spec car unless you also buy a smaller battery.
Yes, you need some controller for Apexi as well. I've been thinking about the Apexi Power FC myself, but I understand that's not so common in UK. You can get that preprogrammed for the turbokit as well, apparently even with no extra charge.
You can also get an optional boost controller for the PFC that allows you to set the boost through the Commander. Or set it to automatically use different boost for...like less boost for 1st gear, if you have trouble with grip. And a bti of extra boost for short period from a switch, when you need it...and...well...I must wipe the drool now s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
And yes, you can also get electrical boost controllers for PE s8) 8) s8)
I don't know about it not fitting a UK car...you have a bigger battery than in Japan? s:? :? s:?
so I believe yes, the celica defo has
My thoughts:
- You mention lightened flywheel, yet no uprated clutch; you *will* need an uprated clutch..
- No problem with PE-T on '03.
- Nothing wrong with Greddy E-Manage. However IMO, it's more important to find a good tuner and see what they prefer to use, than choose the ECU and find a tuner that knows how best to use it.
- You *will* need an intercooler or water injection.
- If you intend to run sensible boost (ie ~0.5bar) you will need uprated injectors to ensure you're not running them beyond 85% nominal.
- Regarding Millway:
- I don't speak for them, anything authorative talk to them directly.
- We had mucho problems with both the SMT and fuelling which took a lot of man-hours to sort out. Having done it once, piece of cake to do again; therefore any such monies I paid out isn't representative of what someone else would.
- Hedley doesn't have the software nor the experience with the E-Manage. Programming ECUs is a bit of a black art (explained elsewhere). See above comment about ECU purchase..
- Boost control. In an ideal world, this is best done solely with just an actuator. Adding bleed valves and electronic boost controllers are just a means to patch a poor actutator setup. I was going go all electronic until I was enlightened. All part of the selling hype, much like the 'requirement' of dump valves.
- TTE Turbo. This *will* be appearing this year and it's still schedule for H1. It's been quiet as there hasn't be much to report.
- Personally I'd wait for the TTE kit and be happy to live under its warrantee. In fact I'd go as far as saying I'd sell my current setup (as good as it is) so I could buy the TTE version, even if it is less bhp overall.
Quote from: "perry190"Quote from: "markiii"now bare in mind that this is with the stock main cat and exhaust.
you could probably realise another 20bhp by changing these elements.
is that not the same with any turbo kit tho?
Cant argue with the warranty issues tho
true,
though virtually everybody in teh US whos gone PE has managed to overfuel sufficiently to knacker thier cats. With teh TTE you can keep them if you want.
or remove if not.
It's not a TTE speciality with the cat being able to stay on
You have to add more fuel for a turbo so it can easily happen, and it's the extra heat aswell. It will happen with the TTE it's just no-one has it yet to show this.
They aint miracle workers at TTE, they just seem to be able to tell convincing stories! Well some seem to be convinced by them. s:evil: :evil: s:evil: Proof is what we need.
agreed, but if they break it, they replace. ain't warranty luvly
Anyone got an idea how muych a custome turbo manifold would run?
Ok my views on the subject.
Yes the jap cars have a smaller battery than the UK so not as much room in there.
IMO the Aquamist WI is so good that an intercooler is not required just ask subaru ralley team for their thoughts.
Yes ideally for 6.5psi you need a good supply of fuel, Ian & I bought the racing fuel pump from MWR and I have fitted mine. For higher than 6.5psi then bigger injectors are probably required.
The greddy is a superb piggyback ECU and any tunner will be able to tune it, at the end of the day it is just a fuel & Injector map 16x16 and is just like any other mapping. Ian & I have done a lot of reaserch lately and with a A/F ratio meter and a knock sensor we can do our own tuning which benifits us from the knowledge and understanding of our cars.
The Apexi kit is fine, if bought without the the intercooler and will fit on a UK car fine, mine was only a problem because it was an SMT and we fitted the intercooler (before I had WI).
For none SMT cars then you have more options you could go with a complete ECU swap no wiring plug and play this was my first option but the engine ECU was tied to much to the transmission ECU on my SMT. However in the end I fitted my greddy e-manage and profec and was very easy and very pleased with it.
As for the TTE I have my doubts as to actually achieving a worthwhile result, also who fits a Turbo and does nothing else to the car nobody and you only need to mod one thing and Mr T could say modded car no more warrenty.
Hope this helps Darren........... s:D :D s:D
well thanks for all your comments and advice guys, obviously ultimately I had to make my own descision on all the facts available and my personal preferences.
So
I've just ordered the PE ported turbo kit, pre-programmed Greddy E-manage and Uprated fuel pump.
I'm presently trying to source the best price on a GREDDY Profec e-01 (Elec. Boost Controller) and I will make a descision on the Aquamist/Intercooler side once I have spoken fully with the guy who's going to be fitting it. (aquamist being my preference)
Its a great relief to make a descision, even if its not to my wallet ! s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Congratulations, you'll not be dissapointed. Check here for profec cheapest i've ever found.
m http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/index.html (http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/index.html) m
And mark just as a guide MWR have a custom manifold here, if you haven't already seen it.
m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/turbo_per ... zz_fe.html (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/turbo_performance_turbo_header_toyota_1zz_fe.html) m
Quote from: "markiii"Anyone got an idea how muych a custome turbo manifold would run?
Custom manifolds are going for around 200 euros over here...
Good choice Perry, as Ian has said make sure you get the injector harness and the pressure sensor link cable. It is best to use the profec pressure sensor as this is more accurate than the emanage one, so you do not need the emanage one with the link cable.
If you need any help with the install shout as I am local.
Are you fitting the Turbo yourself ?
Scottie more power please, its on the way captain............ s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
well I was going to take it down to Japspeed, but you've got me thinking now s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:? :? s:?
Japspeed fitted my turbo I did not do it myself as did not have the facilities ramp lift is so more convienient. The Greddy part is easy to do yourself. However I do have a oil leak around the oil pipe for the turbo yet to be fixed. Ian Fitted his himself more gifted with spanners than me I am more electrical than big lumps of metal.
Hope you get a good price on fitting and i would segest TDI in maldon but i think it's too far away for you
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"It's not a TTE speciality with the cat being able to stay on
You have to add more fuel for a turbo so it can easily happen, and it's the extra heat aswell. It will happen with the TTE it's just no-one has it yet to show this.
They aint miracle workers at TTE, they just seem to be able to tell convincing stories! Well some seem to be convinced by them. s:evil: :evil: s:evil: Proof is what we need.
hmm I agree, but I also know that TTE are very very good at what they do and even if it does go pop, you have the warranty to fall back on.
Basicly it always comes back to the 1ZZ being a tiny bit naff, but my money is on TTE doing the best job.
so Perry, any insurance quotes yet?
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"It's not a TTE speciality with the cat being able to stay on
You have to add more fuel for a turbo so it can easily happen, and it's the extra heat aswell. It will happen with the TTE it's just no-one has it yet to show this.
They aint miracle workers at TTE, they just seem to be able to tell convincing stories! Well some seem to be convinced by them. s:evil: :evil: s:evil: Proof is what we need.
I would say that the testing that has been done by Toyota Japan has been somewhat more potentially destructive than any normal driver is going to achieve (even with multiple track-days thrown in)
When we met with TTE last year, Toyota had just completed one of their extended run tests (aprox 100 hours flat out on their test track) and there were no problems to report (except the rear light cluster melted and fell out s:( :( s:( - this has been fixed with a heatshield over the turbo and manifold)
It's not TTE who are ratifying the setup - it's Toyota Japan, and believe me, they are being
extremely thorough in their testing as they will have to underwrite the warranty.
Go Pezza! You can diy it, having seen (pictures of) your previous work on the Celi.
And keep us upto date with the progress.
cheers johny! you have more faith than me s;-) ;-) s;-)
no insrance quotes yet as I'll be renewing next month so I'll start phoning around then
price for fitting? £280 for tha basic kit + intercooler
My insurance quote was £800 with Adrian Flux.
Are you having an intercooler now then ?
Quote from: "DAZ400"My insurance quote was £800 with Adrian Flux.
Damn you old people s;) ;) s;) (I'm guessing you must be of a reasonable age?)
My quote was more than that with just the mods in my sig s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Ho hum s:) :) s:)
I am 34 and have 9 Years no claims in a quite area.
Quote from: "DAZ400"I am 34
See, I knew it! s;) ;) s;) .. (You've 9 years on me. And a much faster car s:) :) s:) )
Good luck with the turboing Perry.
cheers bud!
havnt decided on the intercooler of the aquamist as yet, the original quote was for fitting the intercooler as well tho.
ps I'm 44 ! so the insurance company normally pays me ! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "perry190"havnt decided on the intercooler of the aquamist as yet, the original quote was for fitting the intercooler as well tho.
I'd be tempted to go for the IC myself, perhaps fit the WI as an added safety measure or to allow you to have extra boost (assuming you had an electronic boost controller and not just a preset actuator) with the water on.
The main reason being - if you just fit WI and then tune the car to a decent level, using the water as your only charge cooling method, what happens if you run out of water one day? Afterall, there aren't many places to fit a decent sized water reservoir on a '2..
Having said that, I've seen WI get excellent results on a lot of cars (including a Mk2 Turbo - although he
did keep running out of water..). Still, I think for my own peace of mind I'd have the IC there as well - at least you have
some charge cooling then, no matter what.
Of course, introducing an IC & piping into the intake tract will add a little lag, but bearing in mind the size of turbo and IC these setups run, I can't imagine it'd be much.
Quoteps I'm 44 ! so the insurance company normally pays me ! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Long service payments? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I'm sure that by the time I'm in my 40's, I'll still be paying a grand a year for insurance! Sometimes I wonder if I just say the 'wrong' things to them when I call..
Aaron
Unless it's a water/air IC then i wouldn't bother.
Even a average size water bottle lasts about 2 fills of fuel.
If it runs out, then you put a light on the dash that tells you this so you just don't push the car. With the profec EBC he can wire the warning LED into it that tells it there's a problem and it will lower the boost back to a safe level. Hardly a risk is there with this in place?
well MWR have just mailed me to say the atthe turbo will be ported tomorrow and sent out on friday on 2-4 day delivery, so it should be long before I can get her sorted s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Going to get Japseed (Southampton) to fit the actual turbo in its standard 4.5ps guise initially as I know Simon of old, however I will be looking for somewhere nearer to home for every day mods. Can anyone recommend any tuning place near to Northampton? Owen developments at oxford for example?
As with any other import, be aware of duty & VAT and how such values are calculated...
thanks for that, but have been caught out there before s;-) ;-) s;-)
MWR have agreed to value the parcel on the paperwork at aprox $400 rather than $4,000 (as Takakaira do) but we'll have to see s:? :? s:?
I once had a body kit, and cf hood that both came as 'samples FOC' and paid nothing on delivery s:D :D s:D but luck has a lot to do with it as well
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Even a average size water bottle lasts about 2 fills of fuel.
Wonder how big a bottle the Mk2 owner I knew had s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Must have been considerably smaller than yours (or he was running way too much water). actually, come to think of it, I think he was using a 1litre milk container s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"If it runs out, then you put a light on the dash that tells you this so you just don't push the car. With the profec EBC he can wire the warning LED into it that tells it there's a problem and it will lower the boost back to a safe level. Hardly a risk is there with this in place?
Very true - I hadn't thought of it that way, I must admit.. So as long as it's mapped to be bulletproof(ish) at 4.5psi with no charge cooling, he'd be fine.. And I also must admit - a WI setup is a lot more compact than an IC, and certainly than a chargecooler (water/air IC) - I have trouble imagining how you'd fit the latter in our engine bay s:) :) s:)
The other plus side is, I suppose, that with WI you are free to run a water/methanol mix too if you wish..
Martin, has a water air intercooler. however his is mounted up front.
Ah - good plan.. At least - I presume the core of the IC is in the rear, with the radiator for it up front? (Otherwise that'd be one giant intake tract! s:) :) s:) )
s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Arron the tanks Ian & I have fitted are 1.5 L if I remember and don't forget that 80% of the time the car is driving without boost so the usage is not that bad unless you continually boot the go and stop pedal.
Quote from: "DAZ400"unless you continually boot the go and stop pedal.
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: That's my driving style! s;) ;) s;)
Funnily enough, WI was actually next on my list for the other car (untill work stopped, as it were), but that already had reasonable IC's.
I'd never really thought of WI as being a viable alternative to having any IC at all though - just as additional cooling.. I suppose that's just my 'classic' upbringing if you see what I mean (always having cars with factory fit turbo's, and therefore factory fit IC's that you just made bigger & more efficient to gain cooling)..
Quote from: "aaronjb"I'd never really thought of WI as being a viable alternative to having any IC at all though - just as additional cooling..
I kinda think about WI/IC as NO/turbo.
WI&IC are both an easy way to cool the air. IC is always there and requires practically no maintenance. WI needs constant refilling.
NO/turbo are both an easy way to get power. Turbo is always there and requires practically no maintenance. NO needs constant refilling.
Of course it's easier and cheaper to get water than NO, but in the end it's the same. You have to keep filling it all the time, or it will stop working...
I agree Tem but efficiency matters too, not just which need maintenance. The IC not done right can cause more problems than correct.
My opinion is simply, WI is not a better alternative to a well placed and sized IC, but it's just in our application it shines. There just isn't a good place to put a air/air IC that will be able to get a good air flow over it and be of a good size to disipate the heat, instead of soaking it in.
Now before the TTE enthuiasts start i know they have developed a air/air and i'm sure it'll be excellent BUT only at 4.5psi, so hey presto, they've done their job, and that's the most you'll need as you can't up the pressure because of warranty and the fact that the piggy back ECU won't be able to cope etc.
The water/air chargecooler is the only system i would use.As i already posted Pace Products in the UK supply a full kit for £456.50 which is the chargecooler core,front mount heat exchange,piping and water pump. The only fabrication needed is the pipes to it from the turbo and then from it to the throttle body. Again this is not maintenance free, if the pump stopped or a water leak occured the charge cooler would become a charge heater!!
The weekly/fortnightly refill of my water bottle is just part of my regular oil,water, tyre pressure checks now.
Yes Tem, but you have to put fuel in the car so theres no difference..... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "DAZ400"Yes Tem, but you have to put fuel in the car so theres no difference..... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yeah, but (assuming you didn't have a clever system to lower the boost if the water runs out) if you run out of fuel you stop.. if you run out of water and keep booting it, you cook an engine s:D :D s:D
I'll stop being so argumentative now s;) ;) s;) s:) :) s:)
See Ians post previous that explains about water out indication and if this happens you should just be sensable about it and not drive the car hard until you fill the tank. Also don't forget Ian has run with no cooling at 6.5psi for the last 10 months with no issues.
Quote from: "DAZ400"Yes Tem, but you have to put fuel in the car so theres no difference..... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Local gas stations don't have water in same place as gasoline. So I'd have to fill up the gas first, then move the car to get the water. It's definitely more hassle, but of course everyone has to decide if it's too much for them s;) ;) s;)
I'm not worried about breaking the engine if it runs out, it's easy to prevent, like others have already said.
well I've just returned from my first full consultation with Japspeed (thank you Simon for expalining how it all works s:? :? s:? )
I've decided to go for an initial set up in the 4.5 psi guise (190bhp and loads more torque) and then add the MWR IC as soon as they can supply (have mailed them ref this and they had yet to decide the price, but roughly $1100) i'm hoping they may come back to me today to confirm both price and that they have it in stock
I will then at a later point also have WI to increase the power as and when.
Simon (Japspeed) was of the view that on a fast road car WI is best used as an additional performance enhancer rather than a replacement for a IC
He didnt say that WI wouldnt suffice, just that it wouldnt be his preference.
As he is the guy who I will be going back to if the mota goes tits up then i'm quite happy to follow his advice at this time.
Obviously these are only his personal views and we all have those dont we s;-) ;-) s;-)
justr had a thought s:?: :?: s:?:
whats the score with Aquamist in sub zero temperatures? does the bottle have a heater? or can you add antifreeze to the mixture s:? :? s:? s:? :? s:? ?
the way my washer jets fart around in the winter it could be a worry...no?
That's what the methanol is really in there for. As with windsceen washer fluid its got a low freezing point.
Quote from: "perry190"justr had a thought s:?: :?: s:?:
whats the score with Aquamist in sub zero temperatures? does the bottle have a heater? or can you add antifreeze to the mixture s:? :? s:? s:? :? s:? ?
the way my washer jets fart around in the winter it could be a worry...no?
An alternative look at this:
Would it matter? I for one am not in the habit of applying wide open throttle in sub zero temperatures, and I only have the standard 138 horses to contend with. Also the intake temp is going to be very low anyway, so added to the "careful" application of throttle, I doubt the ECU would even be calling for the WI...
Just my 2p worth s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Exactly right. The only thing that worries me is the pump, that is required to be put as far away from heat as possible.If the water froze in there it would crack it.
I only ask as I went out in the wifes mondeo the other day and the washer jets were frozen right up until about lunchtime (outside temp reading was 3 degrees)
Now with the PE turbo spooling at 1300rpm and full boost before 2500rpm surely the WI is going to be on unless you really are crawling along?
I was doing 80 down the motorway with frozen washer jets as the roads were clear, if it was the same with the Aquamist bottle then I would be at full boost with no water surely?
as for the methanol, I didnt know it was put in there to be truthful?
with upto 50% methanol water mix which is what I am currently running in the cold weather nothing is freezing.............. s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "perry190"Now with the PE turbo spooling at 1300rpm and full boost before 2500rpm surely the WI is going to be on unless you really are crawling along?
I think those figures are based upon wide open throttle.. in part throttle situations, like a gentle cruise or around town, the turbo is going to be doing hardly any work at all...
Perry have you driven a turbo car before? The WI will not start untill it reaches a pre-set positive manifold pressure.You can accelerate quite hard on half throttle area without any boost at all. Infact the car can be driven as you would normally drive a car when cold (or hot) without any positive manifold pressure, right up to red line RPM. The turbo is more of a WOT only animal. s:evil: :evil: s:evil: (not saying that the turbo only works on WOT before someone tells me off)
Ah ha I see s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
well its all unpacked and in the garage awaiting the big day
(http://www.muchos.co.uk/members/perry190/unpacked.jpg)
final costings were:-
Fully ported turbo kit $3420
Upgraded fuel pump $140 (not required but my choice)
Preprogrammed e-manage $549
UPS freight $290
Total $4399 = £2415
Tax/import duties £135 MWR paperwork set at $900 for me!
Fitting E-Manage Free (Daz and myself)
Fitting mechanicals £140 (1/2 day at mates toyota dealership)
Total cost to go turbo £2690 + oil/gaskets etc
I am going with profec boost controller, aquamist and a few other bits but thats the basic on the road 190bhp version costed at todays exch rates (190 using US petrol so optimax should up it a bit for you)
Not bad when you compare it with the price of a decent header, CAI and chip etc etc
hope that helps
Sooo jealous! s:x :x s:x
I MUST see the car when it is done s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It wouldn't be a bad thing to get the manifold ceramic coated inside and out before you fit. Don't bother with the colourful stuff, just go with the best heat qualities..
s8) 8) s8) I'm jealous too..... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
And the big day is???
FRIDAY 26TH MARCH !!!!! (and counting)
Can anyone tell me what the internal diameter is of the vacuum hose that my dump valve will be connecting to? Was in the middle of ordering the valve to be told that I need to order a particular bore of pipe and a t-piece to match? (havnt got the car with me)
If not.......could you tell me in idiots language which pipe this is and where to look so I dont measure the wrong one s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
I literally have no idea s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
by this I mean the thin pipe from the top of the dump valve, not the big pipe frpm the turbo out put
I've always used 4mm ID hose in the past - usually silicone, but that's because I like the pretty colours s:D :D s:D - plus it stretches more, easier to get on, and just needs a zip tie around it to secure it nicely..
yep 4mm is about right don't worry I have joiners and t pieces.
Quote from: "DAZ400"yep 4mm is about right don't worry I have joiners and t pieces.
I used to get mine from B&Q (pond section) when I was feeling a bit pikey s:D :D s:D (And didn't fancy paying the extortionate price Demon Tweeks wanted for metal ones!)
cheers guys! I'll go with 4mm then. as a matter of interest if anyone has a pic of the engine bay with the vacuum pipe visible at some point it would be much appreciated s;-) ;-) s;-) (I'm on a very steep learning curve at the mo )
Best i've got mate
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iparnwell/car5.jpg)
See the blue hose from the dump valve
Ugh! Do you really want a dump valve? It might sound pretty but makes the throttle less responsive and definitely more laggy. It'll also screw with your fuelling with the danger of running lean. I'm so glad they're totally incompatible with SMT!
Eh? The dump valve when it blows releases air, which the MAF has already detected.With this the ECU doesn't know this so still adds fuel to the system for the amount of air it has detected, this makes the engine run rich, not lean. A recirculating which i believe Perry is getting eliminates the problem.
I've wound the sensitivity screw all the way in on mine so the BOV isn't working while i'm sorting the fueling, to no noticible difference in any way.
The sound isn't the reason it's there, some people including myself think it does sound good, that's just a plus point of fitting one, it's to give the turbo more longevity with less back pressure.
If a recirculating system worked as we think it should work, then SMT shouldn't have a problem, but it does.
Speculation: The reason for lean caution is that if you're backing off to the point the dump valve releases, you're also back in closed loop. The O2s will read rich and back off the stock fuelling, just at the point you're likely to be putting your foot back down again and you're bang into running lean until either the O2s catch up or you go back into open loop. Controlling fuelling around this area is tricky, even when you're on a dyno.
Fact from ficition: other than dump valve manufacturers and enthusiasts that don't have the ability to prove their comments in a controlled manner where do you hear 'evidence' that dump valves increase longevity? If enough people say the same thing, it's got to be true, right?
With serious turbos (ie, anything over 3bar), fatiguing of the compressing vanes occurs, but I've yet to find anything about smaller turbos, and certainly nothing about the 0.5bar that we're targetting.
Works both ways. There isn't the evidence to show it does improve the turbo's life and there isn't any against. It's just make your own mind up time. I feel you state that you couldn't get it to work right on YOUR car, so they must be a bad thing, so don't get one. I say they do work, maybe just a nice sound, but if it helps the turbo at all it's a bonus.They certainly won't have an adverse affect on the turbo life anyway.
This has become a topic drift on something Perry never asked about, if a BOV is a good idea or not.Just wanted to know what size pipe he needs.
4mm is correct.
Yep, topic drift s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
interesting diversion there guys :-) :-) :-) sorry was out and missed it live s;-) ;-) s;-)
I've gone for a dual port dv which recirculates at low pressure but vents to the atmospere under hard acceleration. And yes I love the noise as well s:D :D s:D to be truthful thats why half the people on here who have the apexi power intake do so....the noise s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
cheers guys s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"I ran for 10months with no intercooler at 6.5psi with my PE and pre-programmed e-manage.
What happened after/at 10 months?
Did it break?
If so, what broke?
thanks,
Ian's car is fine, nothing broke he has now added Water Injection.
Yeh i just changed it for more power, now got WI, bigger injectors and fuel pump. s:D :D s:D
If i was happy at 6.5 then what i had was working really well
bigger fuel pump isnt necessary if u run with stock internal. if u go forged, then it's different case. i run 10 psi all day with no probs at all.. but with methanol injected system. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
What size injectors do you have fitted ?
Have you measured your fuel pressure ?
Have you Dynoed your Car ?
What other mods have you done ?
sorry for all the questions but I am interested in what you have done s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "DAZ400"What size injectors do you have fitted ?
Have you measured your fuel pressure ?
Have you Dynoed your Car ?
What other mods have you done ?
sorry for all the questions but I am interested in what you have done s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
are u asking me..?
sard 530cc injectors.
no i havent measured my fuel pressure yet but i run 10.1:1 at 10 psi boost. it's pig rich.
my first base dyno was 200 hp at the wheels tuned to only 6000 rpm with stock flywheel, clutch, and LSD. no water/methanol injection and vvti tuning at that time.
my current engine mods:
-ported apexi turbo kit
-aquamist 2d (water/meth)
-sard 530cc injectors
-power FC
-FC datalogit
-1 step colder copper sparkplugs gapped to 0.76mm
-turbosmart boost controller
-TPS titanium muffler
-downpipe
-fidanza flywheel
-ACT TC2-HDR6 clutch
-10% toluene mixture on 98RON petrol.
i will update u guys with my "final" dyno tuning result. s:D :D s:D
hey DAZ400, i see u have the same turbo setup as mine. tell me ur numbers.. s:) :) s:)
Not really sure you can say the higher rate pump isn't needed, i have installed it more for the same reason i installed the aquamist, for safety.
I know the Apexi comes with no rising rate fuel pressure reg so aren't you a bit concerned that your big injectors might not be squirting as much fuel as your thinking on hard WOT accelerations. I know you say it's running rich but for the sake of $140, you not tempted?
You are running 10psi, how well does it hold that pressure? With the apexi and the PE being about the same size there is alot of talk (mostly on SC) that they are inefficient around that area, and can tail off.
Isn't the spell checker annoying sometimes, i want to put W.O.T not what. GRRRRRR leave me alone!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
At last someone else with an Apexi Turbo....... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Ok i have being slowly changing bits so have no figures at the moment as final tuning has not yet happened.
I have the following Engine bits.
Standard Apexi Turbo with Intercooler.
Greddy Piggy back ECU as Power FC would not work with the SMT.
Greddy Profec-e01 Boost controller and multifunction display & Programmer
Standard Injectors at the moment.
High flow Fuel pump for use with bigger injectors.
Auamist 2D (Water/Methanol).
HKS Iridium Plugs 1 Step Cooler.
H & S Custom Exhaust with High Flow Racing CAT.
I am currently waiting to arrive this week my wideband O2 sensor and controller to measure A/F ratio for tuning, with narrowband output to feed to ECU. With this installed hope to get some fine tuning done then get it dynoed.
Do you have the forged internals in your engine ?
Darren........ s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Not really sure you can say the higher rate pump isn't needed, i have installed it more for the same reason i installed the aquamist, for safety.
I know the Apexi comes with no rising rate fuel pressure reg so aren't you a bit concerned that your big injectors might not be squirting as much fuel as your thinking on hard WOT accelerations. I know you say it's running rich but for the sake of $140, you not tempted?
You are running 10psi, how well does it hold that pressure? With the apexi and the PE being about the same size there is alot of talk (mostly on SC) that they are inefficient around that area, and can tail off.
no, i m not concerned about my fuel pump at WOT at 10psi. like i said, i got 10.1:1 at WOT. actually our fuel pump can cope with up to 13psi of boost.
last time when i dynoed my car, i got boost creep at 10 psi. s:( :( s:( the boost will rise to 11-12psi range. thats not a big deal but i did port out my turbo after that. there should be no probs now. s:) :) s:)
i know apexi kit is a 8psi kit. but i just run it 2 more psi and if u see my hp figure, i know it is not that inefficient. s:P :P s:P
Quote from: "DAZ400"At last someone else with an Apexi Turbo....... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Ok i have being slowly changing bits so have no figures at the moment as final tuning has not yet happened.
I have the following Engine bits.
Standard Apexi Turbo with Intercooler.
Greddy Piggy back ECU as Power FC would not work with the SMT.
Greddy Profec-e01 Boost controller and multifunction display & Programmer
Standard Injectors at the moment.
High flow Fuel pump for use with bigger injectors.
Auamist 2D (Water/Methanol).
HKS Iridium Plugs 1 Step Cooler.
H & S Custom Exhaust with High Flow Racing CAT.
I am currently waiting to arrive this week my wideband O2 sensor and controller to measure A/F ratio for tuning, with narrowband output to feed to ECU. With this installed hope to get some fine tuning done then get it dynoed.
Do you have the forged internals in your engine ?
Darren........ s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
hmmn..
i see u have a pretty much the same setup as mine except for the injectors. i really recommend u to put bigger injectors in if u plan to run more than 6 psi. stock injectors are rated 290cc/min which in my opinion is only good for 6 psi. but guys with SF kit in NC proved that the stockers can handle 10-13psi of boost. well, i just recommend u but its up to u to decide.. good luck on ur tuning. s:) :) s:)
my internals are bone stock coz i m not planning to increase my boost level. its already freakin fast for me.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Perry,
If you haven't already seen it, this may assist you.
m http://www.speedtoys.com/~joel/ (http://www.speedtoys.com/~joel/) m
markiii just out of interest what mods have you done to your car ?
perfromance wise, TRD sportivo, TRD Front and rear strut braces, TRD member braces are on the way, antiflex plate, B&M shifter, inlet duct.
turbo is on the wish list but not til the car is paid for
EDIT And H&S Exhaust can't forget that s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
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so are you going to an installation report for us then Perry? Would be a good feature to add to teh site
Quote from: "DAZ400"....
I am currently waiting to arrive this week my wideband O2 sensor and controller to measure A/F ratio for tuning, with narrowband output to feed to ECU. With this installed hope to get some fine tuning done then get it dynoed.
Can you tell me which Wideband O2 sensor you have bought? I have a PLS device installed on a new welded bung, but i left the stock O2 sensor (i 've PPE Header). Before my choiche i read a lot of threads in a few forums and seems there are problems if replace your narrowband sensor with it( signal noise i.e). Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius. Naturally this is only an advice.
Quote from: "Maurizio"...Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius.
For what it's worth, TTE are placing the O2 sensors on their kit *pre* turbo. As you point out, not the coolest place to put them. I wonder if they use special sensors that are specifically built for such temperatures?
I have bought the PLX M300 with the Bosch O2 Sensor and I intend to use the narrowband output to go to the ECU for both the O2 sensor inputs. I am also going to use the wideband linear output and connect this to one of the inputs on the Greddy Profec that way I can display my A/F ratio against boost, revs, thottle position, Injectors etc and also log this data using the Profec functions. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
My O2 sensor is positioned about 12 inches after the Turbo and a second bung for the second O2 sensor about another 12 inches from that. I intend to use the first bung.
I also have bought a PLX M-300. I read the values of display together those of map tracer of PFC and ... sometimes i have a look in the the street. It's very dangerous!
The O2 Wideband sensor is a BOSCH LSU4.2 that is used in a few models of VWagen and Volvo. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
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Congrats Perry. I'd still add the exhaust sometime as regardless of the nicer sound, the reduced back pressure will give more power and prolong the turbo's life. I'll see you next week anyway and we'll compare. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Well told you it would be great, my car is awsome with the turbo if only Mr T had done this as standard oh what a car it would be and just destroy all the other so called soft top convertables won't swear and mention any names.
Market share Toyota 95%
s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
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Perry: you can borrow my old CAT, but I'd want it back in one piece s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I had a custom exhaust made up. Was originally going to have a one made up that was down-pipe back, but the guy there (who's been doing custom & specialist exhausts for over twenty years) reckoned the PE downpipe is the bottle neck. He wasn't best pleased since he had to fab the turbo manifold and wastegate collection for no extra, but he's the one that recommended it so I'm not complaining. So I've now got a custom exhuast that's 2.5" all the way back to the turbo. If you're getting a custom made up, I'd recommend looking at getting the downpipe replaced too.
Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "Maurizio"...Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius.
For what it's worth, TTE are placing the O2 sensors on their kit *pre* turbo. As you point out, not the coolest place to put them. I wonder if they use special sensors that are specifically built for such temperatures?
I read that o2 sensors won't even develop their voltage, if not heated to at least 600 degrees (F). I wonder what the temp is ... exiting the block ... AND what the fall-off rate is ... as the gases proceed down the exhaust pipe?
Quote from: "MikeCoughlin"Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "Maurizio"...Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius.
For what it's worth, TTE are placing the O2 sensors on their kit *pre* turbo. As you point out, not the coolest place to put them. I wonder if they use special sensors that are specifically built for such temperatures?
I read that o2 sensors won't even develop their voltage, if not heated to at least 600 degrees (F). I wonder what the temp is ... exiting the block ... AND what the fall-off rate is ... as the gases proceed down the exhaust pipe?
Indeed, the temperature of the oxy sensor can have a major affect on its output voltage... even for the same air/fuel ratio. The easiest way of limiting this variation is to use a heated oxygen sensor. During the dyno-tuning O2 sensor can be located in the tailpipe,i.e.. Using a heated oxygen sensor, however, makes sure that it still gets hot enough to output sensible voltages.
Quote from: "Maurizio"Quote from: "MikeCoughlin"Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "Maurizio"...Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius.
For what it's worth, TTE are placing the O2 sensors on their kit *pre* turbo. As you point out, not the coolest place to put them. I wonder if they use special sensors that are specifically built for such temperatures?
I read that o2 sensors won't even develop their voltage, if not heated to at least 600 degrees (F). I wonder what the temp is ... exiting the block ... AND what the fall-off rate is ... as the gases proceed down the exhaust pipe?
Indeed, the temperature of the oxy sensor can have a major affect on its output voltage... even for the same air/fuel ratio. The easiest way of limiting this variation is to use a heated oxygen sensor. During the dyno-tuning O2 sensor can be located in the tailpipe,i.e.. Using a heated oxygen sensor, however, makes sure that it still gets hot enough to output sensible voltages.
Soooo ... would it be fair/accurate to say that if o2 sensors are mounted at a different distance from the head than the factory mounting location, then the A/F ratio must be adjusted/tuned for that new mounting location -at least for closed-loop operation and "driveability"?
This seems to be an issue with the various header offerings because only the TRD header mounts the o2 sensors in/near the factory-stock location. It appears that TopSecret mounts some 10 inches further down and PPE mounts perhaps another 10 inches further downstream. Therefore, I wonder how much cooler the exhaust is that much further down the exhaust pipe ... and is it sufficiently warm to be within the operating range of the o2 sensor?
Just a quick sidenote...the O2 sensors have 4 wires, which means they are heated and should work just fine even at the end of the pipe. I wouldn't worry too much about their position...
Get wideband sensors if you want to be accurate s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "MikeCoughlin"Quote from: "Maurizio"Quote from: "MikeCoughlin"Quote from: "mph"Quote from: "Maurizio"...Also for sensor placement is necessary install annywhere before the catalytic converter and approximately 24 inches downstream from the engine block or turbo. The sensor element will fail if it is exposed to exhaust gas temperatures above 850 deg Celsius.
For what it's worth, TTE are placing the O2 sensors on their kit *pre* turbo. As you point out, not the coolest place to put them. I wonder if they use special sensors that are specifically built for such temperatures?
I read that o2 sensors won't even develop their voltage, if not heated to at least 600 degrees (F). I wonder what the temp is ... exiting the block ... AND what the fall-off rate is ... as the gases proceed down the exhaust pipe?
Indeed, the temperature of the oxy sensor can have a major affect on its output voltage... even for the same air/fuel ratio. The easiest way of limiting this variation is to use a heated oxygen sensor. During the dyno-tuning O2 sensor can be located in the tailpipe,i.e.. Using a heated oxygen sensor, however, makes sure that it still gets hot enough to output sensible voltages.
Soooo ... would it be fair/accurate to say that if o2 sensors are mounted at a different distance from the head than the factory mounting location, then the A/F ratio must be adjusted/tuned for that new mounting location -at least for closed-loop operation and "driveability"?
This seems to be an issue with the various header offerings because only the TRD header mounts the o2 sensors in/near the factory-stock location. It appears that TopSecret mounts some 10 inches further down and PPE mounts perhaps another 10 inches further downstream. Therefore, I wonder how much cooler the exhaust is that much further down the exhaust pipe ... and is it sufficiently warm to be within the operating range of the o2 sensor?
The PPE is ceramic coated fo course, which keeps the gasses hoter and moving faster.
PPE header has one only O2 sensor. Stock and other headers use two O2 sensor to read 1/4 and 2/3 cylinders.So, the mixture for each cylinder pair is tuned separately. PPE sends the same signal to 2 ECM pinout and doesn't allow a fine tuning. Cylinder n°1 runs hotter and A/F ratio is more lean than others, i suppose. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
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Quote from: "perry190"couldnt find the post where the question was asked, but heres the answer
DIG renewal just came through, £26 more than last year for the turbo :-) :-) :-)
That was some deal; I've just paid an additional £55 part way though the cover for twin exhaust, Anti-flex plate, metal air intake pipe and springs s:? :? s:?
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