Hello
I need some advice! I have sealed the deal on a 2001 mr2. Spoken to the dealer today as they were putting car through MOT and he's informed me that it failed on the CAT, and that they are replacing it.
I am very, very new to this (obviously) and would very much like to get some valuable information from you good people on here. I have read the threads but not got an answer clear enough for me to feel confident enough about what to do.
Please can someone give me some clear advice on this precat issue, and pros/cons/risks of removing or leaving the pre cat in, i have read the thread regarding removing the precat from top to toe but need more from people that are on here please..!
so my concern is - 2001 29k on the clock failed MOT and cat getting replaced...what are the implications of this?
I was planning on taking the mr2 to a specialist (any advice Im in devon no sign on other threads to point me in direction of recommended specialist) to get them to have a look at the state of it but what do i need to be doing and how often to ensure i do as much as a i can to not ruin the engine
thank you thank you a million times over for all your advice
Jenna
implications to me is that the main cat probably failed as is full of oil or precat material,
either way I'd avoid it
you would not buy?
if it was me as I might as I know what I'm checking,
If I was in your shoes the alarm bells would be ringing
Quote from: "Jenna+Mr2"you would not buy?
No way, too risky, look for another one
Walk away, too many issues and there's too many other examples available without any potential pitfalls.
29000 miles and the cat has gone - there's something distinctly wrong about a car whose cat fails within that mileage.
Good that the garage told you they failed it. Lots of evidence on here that the o2 sensors cause the emmisions test to fail but my gut goes with the majority and Mark's point. If you buy then get a watertight warranty.
If you do buy this car then get the pre cats out asap or even ask them to di it while the main cat is being replaced. As already stated, alarm bells are ringing and there must be doubt for you to be asking for advice.
I asked them to check CAT whilst mot'ing too
I also made a point of asking about the known pre cat problems of which i was told this car was solid and will fly through the mot...clearly not the case.
please can one of you very good knowledgable people tell me some more about this. does this definately imply bigger problems? i am not too sure if it wa cat or pre cat causing the problem (guessing the cat and i dont think they would've delved so far as the pre cat unless they were checking it as requested by me to the dealer...)
absolutely gutted that you all think dont touch it and because i dont really know this car well i would like to be told more from your good selves.
i will prob have to walk away deposit-less too just for another kick in the teeth s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
jenna
And as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as a watertight warranty from an independant trader, even the off the shelf warranties they provide are capped and I doubt would cover the cost of engine replacement. Buyer beware.
does it help to add comes with 3 months warrenty that was confirmed with me that engine failure is covered in warrenty and at the time i did ask if worse case scenario there was a prob with precat which caused engineer failure would it be covered to which i was told yes.
Jenna, all of us on here are paranoid about precat issues. Just get a good warranty with the car. Better still, find a club member in your area who will take a look. The garage is responsible under the Sale of Goods Act to sell you something which is fit for purpose so if it doesn't work, then take it back. Most garages I believe are honest. When you turn the ignition on all of the lights on the dial to the right should come on including the one with the engine symbol at the bottom, and they should all go out when you start the car; just a starting point.
You should not lose your deposit as the car is not in the condition you were lead to believe it was. The main cat shoud last more than 29K if the O2 sensors are removed then you can see the condition of the pre cats, well, one side of them anyway. As Mark has said, the main cat would go if it's clogged with pre cat material and oil. Oil loss would be a problem with the engine (detailed in the pre cat thread) which can be a pre cursor to pre cat and main cat failure. When they replace the main cat, it will probably fail again with oil and pre cat debris.
If you are going to walk away from this deal then arm yourself with as much info as you can about oval bore in the engine and pre cat failure. Afterall, they have lost no money over tis as the car would fail the mot and would need the main cat replaced anyway.
Quote from: "mrzwei"Jenna, all of us on here are paranoid about precat issues. Just get a good warranty with the car. Better still, find a club member in your area who will take a look. The garage is responsible under the Sale of Goods Act to sell you something which is fit for purpose so if it doesn't work, then take it back. Most garages I believe are honest. When you turn the ignition on all of the lights on the dial to the right should come on including the one with the engine symbol at the bottom, and they should all go out when you start the car; just a starting point.
so if i go back tomorrow and say i want a precat check due to the failure, and with the warrenty and then if that comes out clean would you buy?
Yes
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"29000 miles and the cat has gone - there's something distinctly wrong about a car whose cat fails within that mileage.
Quote from: "markiii"implications to me is that the main cat probably failed as is full of oil or precat material,
either way I'd avoid it
lots of good advice on this thread, but i am just picking the 2 comments i agree with most.
sad as it is jenna, i have to agree with the gang here.
its probably not been run sufficiently to get the cat up to working temperature for long enough, its a 9 year old car. with less than 3k miles per year.
it may not be, and yes it may have a warranty, but what happens if you get a problem after 4 months?
yes we are all paranoid on here, but at the same time, we all love this car to bits, and as such we would not want you to buy a lemon.
how much deposit have you paid? if its relatively small, i would be tempted to suck it up and find another one.
keep us all posted, we are rooting for you s:) :) s:)
plus its nice when someone new comes on here and asks all the right questions before having bought the car. so well done on that one.
e
I would ask them to remove the pre cats and run a compression test on the engine.
Quote from: "Jenna+Mr2"Quote from: "mrzwei"Jenna, all of us on here are paranoid about precat issues. Just get a good warranty with the car. Better still, find a club member in your area who will take a look. The garage is responsible under the Sale of Goods Act to sell you something which is fit for purpose so if it doesn't work, then take it back. Most garages I believe are honest. When you turn the ignition on all of the lights on the dial to the right should come on including the one with the engine symbol at the bottom, and they should all go out when you start the car; just a starting point.
so if i go back tomorrow and say i want a precat check due to the failure, and with the warrenty and then if that comes out clean would you buy?
Quote from: "mrzwei"Yes
Walk away, why have the hassle? A garage salesperson will say anything to make a sale, walk away, the experienced peeps on here are all saying that.
Hi,
God knows I'm no expert. The problem as I see it is that Toyota had several issues:
The main one is that to meet Califonian regs Toyota put ceramic honeycomb cats or pre cats in the exhaust manifold. The suggestion and worry is always that they could/would start to deteriorate. Now who cares,in an normal engines the exhaust Manifold is past your engine chambers and the only thing it could damage was the main cat/ exhaust as the ceramic bits disintergrate. An expensive replacement but not terminal.
Ahh but as part of it's cycle the VVTI engine sucks in some exhaust fumes..now if the pre cats are breaking up.....the engine could suck these precat particles in...ultimately scoring the bores, screwing the engine.
Anyone that generally knows about it, has the pre cats removed as a precaution, (about £80 to £150 depending on who you use) you don't need them, my 2001 with 58K on the clock has passed 2 MOTs without them.
Basically the worry is why at 29K would any car need a new cat? Even if you had someone were to take the 02sensors out and look down the manifold, even if they were intact, I would still be worried.
Bearing in mind that the problem will not necessarally show in the exhaust fumes, if you're looking for blue smoke as a sign of a damaged engine, forget it. The engine could be nackered or on its way out and still not pushing out blue smoke.
As someone said earlier....as nice as the car maybe....there are other great examples about and in my experience car warranties are about the reasons and excuses these guys come up with NOT to pay out!!
I can fully understand your excitement.... and the decision is always yours.....she could be alright....but then again..
Sorry to be so negative but we have your interests at heart.
Hope this helps.
B.
Quote from: "nelix"Quote from: "Jenna+Mr2"Quote from: "mrzwei"Jenna, all of us on here are paranoid about precat issues. Just get a good warranty with the car. Better still, find a club member in your area who will take a look. The garage is responsible under the Sale of Goods Act to sell you something which is fit for purpose so if it doesn't work, then take it back. Most garages I believe are honest. When you turn the ignition on all of the lights on the dial to the right should come on including the one with the engine symbol at the bottom, and they should all go out when you start the car; just a starting point.
so if i go back tomorrow and say i want a precat check due to the failure, and with the warrenty and then if that comes out clean would you buy?
Quote from: "mrzwei"Yes
Walk away, why have the hassle? A garage salesperson will say anything to make a sale, walk away, the experienced peeps on here are all saying that.
oh no now i am confused.com! lol
i think i will ring the dealer tomorrow and ask for him to remove the precat and do a check as advised above. if he isnt willing to do this then i will look elsewhere. sounds a plan? I also will try to find and speak to a local specialist and get advise direct from them. ifi get the car i think for my piece of mind its worth taking it ASAP to a local specialist to ensure that the dealer has had done what he said he would
sound like a plan?
If the main cat is gone because the pre cats have gone, which at that mileage is distinctly possible, then the engine is fubar.
Walk away.
To be fair even if the dealer removes the pre cat, can you trust them not to remove a broken pre cat and tell you its all good, 99% of the time dealer warranty promise you the world and aren't worth the paper there printed on.
Personally I would say to them if you really want the car, you would take it to an independent specialist who would check it, if its fubard they lose out, if not you will buy it.
jenna, this is Deal or no Deal, can you afford to gamble with what I presume is your hard earned money, why not buy a club members car in the for sale section where you can search for all the relative information about the history of said car, plus have piece of mind that all the precat issues have been resolved.
29k for a main cat------------- s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: s'pose it's better than the 150 miles my fuel pump lasted on the cooper s.
It's easier to walk away than go through months of crap trying to get a garage to replace an engine.
Mike
thank you all for all your advise it is truely appreciated.
i understand your comments and appreciate that you all only have my best interests at heart
will be back tomorrow to let you know whats been decided!
any info until then is welcomed
Jenna s:D :D s:D
Info is simple and advice has been given, don't buy.
Definitely use someone independent to check for these issues and do a compression check.
walk away
Get it properly checked by someone not connected with the sale or walk away - There is more than one Roadster for sale, any doubts about one then you chose another.
Welcome to the club - Hope you find the MR2 for you!
Quote from: "tigracat"It's easier to walk away than go through months of crap trying to get a garage to replace an engine.
+1
There are plenty of nice examples for sale on here and Autotrader, that won't have had the same problems as the car you are viewing. Why are you so desperate to have that specific car? Hold out for a better buy, that you won't feel paranoid about and won't potentially have to replace an engine on s:) :) s:)
What if we all said a collective PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE WITH KNOBS ON !!!
Do not buy this MR2
Reading between the lines it looks as though you have got your heart set on this particular car. We all know how that feels. Don't be intimidated by the salesman, if he gets humpy about returning your deposit just mention Trading Standards - it usually does the trick.
There are plenty of 2's on the market and if you are prepared to wait there will be a better option (probly in the 'cars for sale' section of this forum) I dare say there are a few members who will be prepared to give any prospective purchase the once over for you and maybe even do a bit of haggling.
where a bouts are you, maybe a member could go with you.
Hi and welcome.
I think you are getting the groundswell of opinion here, and it is
"do not go through with buying this car"
To reiterate what has been said, it is highly likely that an underlying problem with the engine has caused main cat failure, by either excess oil from the engine and or debris from the precats breaking up.
The only sure way of sorting the whole chain out is new engine, properly gutted precats and a new main cat.
On balance you don't want your ownership experience to be horrible, so please find another one.
i have slept on it and i am ABORTING MISSION! lol
the hunt is on to find my Mr2 - already seen a couple on autotrader that are worth visiting
i will be beack to ask your very experienced opinion if required and will let you know when i get my Mr2 cos this one aint it! s:D :D s:D
thank you again
Good choice Jenna.
What is your ideal MR2? There might me someone on here that knows where your perfect car is plus (as mentioned before) you'll have a better idea of it's history.
Phew, glad you are letting your head rule Jenna.
Keep your hopes up, there is one out there worth your money. s:D :D s:D
Well done! It is hard to walk away as I could see you really liked the car, but it's just not worth the risk.
Here's hoping you find what you're looking for very quickly :-) :-) :-)
so im female and i am undecided LOL
ok ok ok i just spoke to the dealer
he has said it was the cat not the pre cat which the car will be replaced.
he is adament that it is not the pre cat and the pre cat is not effected and i have said - if i take this car and take it to get checked out by an independent specialist and it proves the problem we are a concerned about and causes engine failure will you take it back- yes he said.
if the mot was already done and i wasnt aware of this then s:scared: :scared: s:scared: we would not be having this debate and i would be none the wiser that there ever was a cat problem. what ever car i buy i would be getting pre cat/cat checked out by independant specialist to ensure no problems. i know now that the car has a new cat.
im going to call a specialist to get tech side advise and if they say what everyone on here is saying im walking away...
it may well be teh main cat that has failed but you have to ask why a cat of that age and mileage has failed.
most common cause is oil from and engine that is dying (probably due to precats)
I'd be asking if its ever had a new engine as often people replace teh engine but leave teh main cat as they don't think its affected, it then soon fails and takes teh new engine with it
seriosuly WE are teh specialists in this field
If you let us know where you are, we can send a professional down to look at the car with you, or ME if none of them are available.
Dont even go there with this cat with the dodgy cat.
Jenna, please, please, please walk away from this car. As Mark has said this board is the place for specialist knowledge about these cars and the concensus here is do not touch this car!
Trust us, this car is a potential disaster.
I forget the details but seem to remember Lynne buying a lemon and following advice from teh ROC taking it back and buying her even better Sable model
we don't want you in teh same boat
29k miles in a ~10 year old car! I've heard of second cars but really?
I wonder what else has expired due to lack of use.
That's right Mark, if you want to contact Lynne (NorthandSouth) I'm sure she'll tell you the story.
There are also others on here who only came along after buying "lemons", it cost them dearly so please pay attention to the opinions of your fellow members they are here to help and guide.
Run, don't walk. Really not worth the hassle.
Quote from: "Jenna+Mr2"so Im female and i am undecided LOL
ok ok ok i just spoke to the dealer
he has said it was the cat not the pre cat which the car will be replaced.
he is adament that it is not the pre cat and the pre cat is not effected and i have said - if i take this car and take it to get checked out by an independent specialist and it proves the problem we are a concerned about and causes engine failure will you take it back- yes he said.
if the mot was already done and i wasnt aware of this then s:scared: :scared: s:scared: we would not be having this debate and i would be none the wiser that there ever was a cat problem. what ever car i buy i would be getting pre cat/cat checked out by independant specialist to ensure no problems. i know now that the car has a new cat.
Im going to call a specialist to get tech side advise and if they say what everyone on here is saying Im walking away...
Talk to most 'Toyota main dealers (I assume you are refering to them as 'specialists') and most will tell you that pre-cat failure is not a problem. That seems to be the official line. Do not believe him when he says he will take it back unless you get it in writing, signed -in blood if possible - and independently witnessed, and that a FULL REFUND will be given. How long will he guarantee the engine for, 1 week, 6 months, 3 years? The usual thing is he takes it back and offers you considerably less than you paid because you have had the use of it.
Do us all a favour and find a good'un - we're all loosing sleep over this.
and in case you were not aware of this, just to add to your fun.
many of the main toyota garages have very little knowledge about the mr2. sure they are competent mechanics etc, the coffee is nice in the showroom, and its all very professional, but they dont generally know a lot about this little car.
this has been proven over the years with several members having to actually tell the garage they went to about things on their cars. the exact details escape me, but it is so true.
keep searching, the right car will find you, its fate s:) :) s:)
I wouldn;t even define them as mechanics
they are parts technicians
they change what the book tells them to
90% have no clue why or any interest in a rational diagnosis
Quote from: "enid_b"....having to actually tell the garage they went to about things on their cars. the exact details escape me...
Usually starts with which end the engine is at s:D :D s:D