Ladies and Gentlemen
As many of you will know, Silverstone Performance is no more but many of its products live on - in particular, the very well received turbo kit.
Whilst the MR2ROC forum is not an exhaustive representation of the market, it seems pretty clear to me that most people here regard £5k as too much money for a kit. That is not to say that people don't understand the value of this kit at £5k (it is, after all, exceptionally well engineered and developed, and proven) but it seems that this amount is just more than people are willing to spend – particularly once you factor in a clutch and some kind of exhaust upgrade (which is what most seem to want). I also see a lot of second hand kits changing hands for sensible money so there is clearly demand. The frustrating thing with some of the second hand kits out there is the problem of ECUs and remapping requirements plus the odd mechanical gremlin that comes to light during installation – that is to say, all too often the £2500 kit ends up costing more than £3k, plus the cost of installing it. Now that's not soooo far away from where I think it might be possible to get the cost of a new SP kit.
The kit is now available in three forms (retail prices incl 2010 VAT in brackets):
1) Low output (+/- 190bhp) T25 turbo, piggy back ECU (stock clutch compliant) (£5030)
2) High output (+/- 235bhp) T25 turbo, piggy back ECU, electronic boost control (£5280)
3) Stage II (+/- 265bhp-330bhp) T28 turbo, chargecooler, standalone ECU (£7530)
In each case the kit effectively comprises a hardware kit of mechanical parts, uprated injectors and an ECU reprogramming solution. Then there is installation and optional upgrade parts (notably clutch and exhaust).
The only real difference between 1) and 2) is that 2) needs a high flow back box and clutch upgrade and the boost control solenoid – the actual kit and injectors are otherwise the same and so the price is much the same. Option 3) is far more complicated however with a vastly more expensive ECU and air cooling system (which takes a lot more time to install). The standalone ECU is also more expensive to map.
I also recognise that engine swaps (2zz, V6...) are very desirable and competitively priced however the absolute performance gains are not so great and the installations are not reversible (in the same sense) and so do not have the intrinsic resale value of a turbo kit. SH turbo kits generally fetch £2k-£3k so you'll always have that to offset the initial investment.
Anecdotally speaking, most seem very interested in a significant increase in power on their '2 but very few go this far. And yet, many spend much time and money pursuing N/A tuning with varying degrees of success which have little intrinsic resale value and the same downsides regarding insurance and saleability (i.e. selling "modified" cars is difficult). This process can be approached piecemeal though breaking the financial investment into bite size chunks. So is finance the issue and would a finance deal on a turbo kit be viable?
I believe that everyone who has experience of the SP kit has a very high regard for it but simply shaving a few quid off the retail is not going to be enough to get more people to take the plunge! So what price would people realistically pay, and what compromises (compared with the current "one stop shop" full warranty etc.) would they accept to get to that price?
Note to Moderators: Whilst this post is clearly aimed at promoting a product which I market, I believe the opinions/ advice that I am canvassing are in the interests of the members and equally relevant to the market as a whole. s:) :) s:)
well personally i would be more tempted to go down the turbo road if finance was available on it. if i had £5,000 in my account i'd buy another motorbike instead (burning a hole in my pocket). the only real thing i wouldn't like is paying the £5,000 out in 1 go. i don't doubt that the kit is good value as i know the amount of work that goes into them but at the same time £5,000 for a modification to a car that isn't worth much more than that is a little steep IMO. i'd probably be more tempted to wait for a 2nd hand one to pop up on here.
another factor for me is insurance. Being under 25 my insurance is already ludicrously steep, chuck a turbo in the mixer and it would make the car almost impossible for me to run financially. i'm not ruling the turbo out as i love my car to bits and i have been teasing myself with glympses at 2zz and turbo options but it would be at least a year down the line
you know that you can go straight to teh finance company for finance on pretty much anything don't you?
Matt,
I'd focus on driving out the cost on the 190bhp kit (PS why is it 190bhp, mine made 200bhp on low boost s8) 8) s8) ) That way no need to change the clutch assuming its not already worn, and no extra costs for sports cats etc.. Plus the low boost/200bhp still keeps the very linear delivery that suits the roadster so well.
Potentially save some cost by keeping the stock air intake maybe? I recon that could flow enough for 200bhp.
Price wise, if you were doing a starter kit for £3500 I recon people would be queueing up!
Also as insurance has been mentioned as a concern, the less aftermarket bits the better. In my case the insurance would have been a fair bit cheaper without larger injectors (sky loaded the premium the same amount for the injectors as the turbo!), again if the 200bhp solution would run on stock injectors its a double win.
David
Quote from: "markiii"you know that you can go straight to the finance company for finance on pretty much anything don't you?
a loan was my plan all along s;) ;) s;)
i was just thinking that having pre-arranged finance set up there and then (ie i just turn up and sign a piece of paper) would be quite appealing as it's an easy option: turn up, sign a piece of paper, get a turbo
I'm kinda in the same boat as Paul here. Im 24 and spent so much on te car already it stand me at miles more than I'll ever get bk. And being under 25 insurance is a problem. Iv pesterd quiet a few ppl on here already about 2zz n v6 n turbos, iv even nearly sold the two to buy an s2000 because I just want the speed to go with the looks. But to cough up 5000 is alot in one go, and then especially to cough up that for what looks like the start of the turbos, if your going to do it, do it properly, some people would say. N 7000 is nearly what I paid for the car. N as much as I love the two, can I really justify living with my parents n sacrificing so much to have a mr2 standing me at close to £16,000 on the drive?? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
But yes I want the 2 turbo'd s:) :) s:)
I think David (stargazer) has pretty much summed it up. Option 1 needs to be a cheaper entry level kit because option 2 almost makes option 1 redundant. If you're willing to pay £5k you're probably willing to pay that bit extra for the clutch and probably have the exhaust already.
Is there any part of the option 1 kit that it could live without?
I'm working on handling at the moment but I'm going to get to the stage where that's done and I'll want the power to match. I will and am struggling to justify spending £5k.
you really dont want to run boost through the stock rubber intake pipes
The problem is not the price of the kit, it is the price of the cars. I suspect sales are just going to be slow because you are aiming at a tiny segment of the market. The car was not a massive seller, I can go for a week or so without seeing another. It is no longer made and so those out there are only getting older and cheaper so will be being bought by people with much smaller budgets. Only a small percentage of owners even know there is an option to add a turbo, let alone get interested enough in doing that to find that your company supplies them.
As an example - A quick trawl through the Autotrader suggests that my '02 car could well be worth less than £3000 (and, having had it 3 years, I have lost £5000 in depreciation and spent another £1500 on mods.). Even believing, as I do, that yours is a very well sorted conversion, and often tempted by the lure of more power, I cannot justify spending another £5000 on a £3000 car.
So, I am enthusiastic about the car, know about the turbo kit, quite like the idea of fitting one and believe yours is the best, but still won't be buying one. I am very close to fulfilling all the criteria of your ideal customer, but still cannot justify it.
Keep plugging away pitching to all the branches of the community and if your product is as good as I hear, then there will be sales - But not many, I am afraid.
I must admit when I saw Matt's kit at Anglesey, it was very impressive, although I never actually went in it s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I've certainly considered the turbo route for a few years now, but to be honest the price as always been the pull back, even more so now you take into account the actual values of the car - has Kent's said, the 2 is no spring chicken, with some pretty rock bottom prices and that's whats attracts a lot of people to the car.
You see second hand kits floating about on a fairly regular basis and these sometimes take time to sell, even at £2k, so £5K is going to be very difficult, on top of that you have the PE kit which is about half the price - again does the job as several people will certainly confirm.
But I think some people have already realised that simply just bolting on a turbo can be a dangerous thing to do, you really do need to consider better suspension, bracing and braking mods - which again adds to the cost, OK up-grade your clutch but that's not going to get you round a bend or stop you when you've over done it and of course don't forget your tyres.
I think this last part is the most important, once you start up-grading / modding it has a knock on affect in other areas, so you £5K turbo becomes a £8 - £9 K mod, which puts you in TVR / S2000 / Lotus areas.
Any way just my thoughts - it's taken me 5 1/2 years to get the car where I want it so costs have never been to bad, the biggest outlay for me was / is suspension.
Sorry for being negitive about this Matt - but you did ask.
Rob
At the same time we are seeing new interest in the car from the MK2 gang.
Now they are interested in Turbos as it's what they're used to .. and certainly the MK2 makes more power than the basic MK3 - at the same time they're realising in the MK3 you don't need massive power. So like body kits I see an improving market for the Turbo kits, maybe it is the right time for more to be available.
However having said that, the MK2 guys have been put off for some time by the cost of the MK3 and the car is now getting within the range they want to spend. I think the cost is crucial if you're going to attract buyers, there is a growing market but it's only just beginning. I've seen this kit myself and love the efficiency of the design, but it had tough competition with the PE kit at that price. But the PE kit does need charge cooling and a better ECU adding to it to get the best out of it, so will probably end up at a similar price when that is achieved. These are things you can do in stages though to reduce the cost and I think one thing all the kit manufacturers are missing a trick on is making the kits available in parts allowing buyers to use their own after market ecu's etc.
I know though that you're selling the complete kit as a fully tested and supported package - you can give guarantees about its reliability that way.
I certainly come back to considering a turbo on occasion, but would rather have a GT Garrett than the T series - again more expensive but probably the better unit.
Just my thoughts Matt ... you have a market but it's only just beginning.
Thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming!
My initial reaction to the comments so far:
Offering finance is an idea I have played around with before, but there's a lot of hoops to jump through for me to be able to do this so I need to be sure it's a worthwhile investment.
I accept Rob's comments about the "rest of the car" upgrades when you go turbo. I don't think it's a negative notion but I'd mention this: on later cars, the chassis is so much improved that it is perfectly capable of handling even 235bhp unmodified. Earlier cars need some help with bracing and possibly suspension refreshing and ideally wider rear tyres but they're a bit lighter so go even better! Also bear in mind that the typical car owner who would go down the turbo route is already predisposed to carry out mods to their cars so may well already have bracing, suspension, exhaust, wheels etc.
As for the PE kit as a competitor, is it really a significant player? How many people have them? The SP kit is considerably more expensive than the PE, and so was the TTE kit before it and yet between them they have massively outsold the PE as I understand it, so I'm not convinced the price is the only issue (accepting that many of the TTE sales took place a while back when the cars were worth more). That said, price will always be an important factor.
I also see that the current value of the cars is a big factor, although I do see it a slightly different way. If you've got a nearly new '2 then spending a several £k on modifying it can make a lot of sense. If on the other hand you want to achieve a certain type of sports car (e.g. Lotus type handling, MR2 type running costs/ reliability, TVR-esque performance) then a £2k-£3k MR2 Roadster is a great place to start. Think of it like a kit car approach. The crucial thing is to get the pricing right. The slightly frustrating thing for me is that when you start with the MR2 "donor" car, the only thing that has massive potential improvement is the engine performance! Everything else is already very good. Sure, suspension can be improved. But £1200+ for some top-line suspension is a lot of money, and the improvements are relatively subtle. Stock brakes are well up to the job (but if you go for a serious upgrade for track work you're into £1500+ for 'some' improvements). Extra bracing, quickshifts, wheels/ tyres, exhausts... They all offer some improvements but the improvements are ACTUALLY quite small compared with the amount they cost, albeit that the amount is a sum that is manageable to most. Whereas a substantial engine upgrade (such as a turbo) offers a massive improvement on a car that is already well sorted. Not so many people here have expereince of running TVRs or Lotuses (I can't speak for VXs though) but I do, and they cost a fortune to run so when you say the words "well, by the time I've fitted a turbo to my '2, I might as well have bought a Lotus" think again!! s:) :) s:)
I aslo come back to the crucial point that a large part of the intital investment for a turbo kit can be recovered when you sell it on. Makes me wonder whether a buy back arrangement could work?
I think part of the attraction of the "TTE" kit was the fitting and its warranty aspect, where ,for all but a few, the PE kit was DIY installed.
If you could sensibly offer the buy back idea, I think that may attract interest, as you've quite rightly pointed out the drawback ( if that's the right term s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ) of the engine conversion route. Many owners appear to want a return on their mods come resale time, whether that be realistic in market terms or not. The idea of a return on the turbo kit might appeal in that area. I've always seen my 2 as an indulgence, not an investment, but its not a view shared by that many.
I wonder if the emphasis was shifted to a "kit" for self fitting would attract buyers. What do you reckon the prices would be then?
Personally I like the cars fitted with these kits, also the PE ( owned one for a year). Driveability was the big attraction.
Still remember the enjoyment of my demo lap round the Silverstone GP circuit in the rain in the SP car, Ace!! s8) 8) s8)
the PE kits biggest weakness is the fact that it has no engine management out of the box
the manual actually tells you to unplug the knock sensor to prevent the stock ecu getting its knickers in a knot
not a good idea
add a piggyback and tuning costs and thats the thick end of amother grand to do.
however the end result with nigh on 190bhp, no lag andd no intercooling is probably enough for most people.
the problem becomes when people inevitablly get the i have a turboi its easy ot get more power idea, just because there mates impreza can be tweaked for more power easily they think they can do teh same
trouble is if you start with a PE more power means, bigger injectors, better exhaust, chargecooling, and then you realise the stock turbo itself is too small
and round you go again
To be clear, are the prices above fitted or hardware only?
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"To be clear, are the prices above fitted or hardware only?
Chris
The prices I have quoted are all fitted prices with a full warranty.
That said, because I could potentially operate as a sole trader I could eliminate VAT on a big chunk of the price (certainly the labour, the "profit" and the cost of certain components that I source from small non-VAT registered suppliers). The warranty cover could be reduced and the profit could be reduced a little. Producing kits in much bigger numbers could also yield some significant cost savings but this is a BIG risk because of the outlay involved.
The main thrust at the moment for me is to try to identify what the market wants to pay (ignoring the obvious answer of "as little as possible"!) and then seeing what I can do to achieve that.
The "SP" kit was originally offered in kit form (without injectors or ECU), incl. intercooler and sports cat at around £3250. I have never sold one like this. I have sold one kit as a DIY kit with ECU and injectors and that went very well (there were a few teething problems with the instruction manual but that was all). The complete DIY kit was around £4000 IIRC (not totally sure as I discontinued this option and my PC has crashed meanwhile so I lost a lot of data s:( :( s:( ).
Quote from: "stargazer30"Matt,
I'd focus on driving out the cost on the 190bhp kit
I agree with Stargazer, this to me is the option for the 2 owner that uses it for everyday use, but wants a bit more power. I think the key issues for this type of owner are:
1 - Reliability (Stressing the engine and other bits)
2 - Manageable power (Not too much so as to make the car scary to drive in all seasons)
3 - Running costs (mpg and insurance) I am assuming mpg would be better than the other 2 options, plus cheaper insurance?
On the subject of finance, If I did not have the cash in the bank, the last thing I would be considering buying is a turbo kit. Its something I would only consider if I had a lot of surplus cash.
However, I am not considering a turbo yet, probably a few more years ownership and a newer engine... maybe then.
I don't see enough differentiation between the stage 1 and 2 kits in terms of pricing. Much cleaner idea IMO is to make the pricing structure reflect the requirements of each kit.
So for the stage 1 on stock clutch and exhaust, maybe something around £4000 fitted and set up.
Stage 2 needs a clutch upgrade and other bits, so why offer it at £5280 when it wont work without the other bits? Add them into the cost as a complete package. You then get margin on the parts and the labour to fit them. The customer gets a transparent price, which is nice.
Stage 3 is again, a price for the basic kit, but it takes huge amounts more than stuffing fuel and air in to make reliable power at these levels and I would offer bespoke specifications with the price starting at whatever it costs to drive out with 265bhp sorted.
There are two areas to consider:
The potential market is small, the MR2 is not a hugely popular car in the UK and they stopped making them years ago. The price has dropped a lot and buyers coming from Mk2 tubbys are likely to be more in the DIY mould than the people who bought the TTE kit for their new or nearly new roadster.
Which brings us to the competition. PE kit is fine for a DIYer and can be had for just over £3000 in the UK. Add in a cheap piggyback and new injectors and that takes you to reasonable performance for around £4000. MRWs kit will appeal to people who want more power. This kit is actually a little cheaper than the PE kit, and includes an intercooler. Combined with an Emerald ECU, I see no reason why 250+ bhp is not possible on a stock engine for less than £5000. If you have a well built engine, this kit will run the bigger outputs too.
So while the SP kit is most likely the best engineered, developed and supported kit available in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, the US market has a lot more roadsters, so can make the economies of scale needed to draw the cost down. This makes it attractive for UK DIYers to import the kits from there and fit them. For people who want drive in / out solutions, your proposed kits represent good value for money IMO, but the product is only worth what the market will pay for it.
The other big problem is that a lot of other cars have got cheaper too. The VX220 Turbo costs roughly what you could sell an MR2 for and add to it the cost of a stage 2 kit. Add in chassis upgrades on the MR2 and the better car argument makes a lot of sense to the buyer. Obviously the VX has its issues too, it is far less habitable than the MR2 and can cost a lot more to keep it running, but it is an option.
Hope this helps and wish you success.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"I don't see enough differentiation between the stage 1 and 2 kits in terms of pricing. Much cleaner idea IMO is to make the pricing structure reflect the requirements of each kit.
So for the stage 1 on stock clutch and exhaust, maybe something around £4000 fitted and set up.
I've done some work on this, see my next post...
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Stage 2 needs a clutch upgrade and other bits, so why offer it at £5280 when it wont work without the other bits? Add them into the cost as a complete package. You then get margin on the parts and the labour to fit them. The customer gets a transparent price, which is nice.
Three reasons why it's without the other bits: 1) because some already have their clutch uprated, 2) because people want their own choice of exhaust (or want to stick with what they already have) and it's not possible for me to give options to meet every need and 3) to keep the published price down so as not to put people off!
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Stage 3 is again, a price for the basic kit, but it takes huge amounts more than stuffing fuel and air in to make reliable power at these levels and I would offer bespoke specifications with the price starting at whatever it costs to drive out with 265bhp sorted.
The only reason the Stage 3 version exists is because some people have a long game and whilst it isn't the cheapest way to get to 265bhp (i.e. chargecooler and standalone ECU) it is futureproof up to 330 bhp with a built engine which makes it unique (off the shelf). The reality of the "long game" principle is that most people don't know what their ultimate target is when they start out because it changes as they go along, but I'm sure pretty much everyone on here with 300+bhp didn't start out thinking that's what they would end up. So give people a 265 package for a bit more than whatever else they could get 265bhp for but in the knowledge that they can go up if they want to.
I think, as people are already remarking, it's the circa 200bhpo package that most people would be aiming for so maybe this is the area that requires the most work in terms of repackaging. So here goes...
Based on a few changes to the existing package I can reduce the cost of the entry level package. The changes are these:
Smaller (& cheaper) 400 cell cat in lieu of large 200 cell sports cat (which is obviously 235bhp capable)
Use stock injectors
6 month warranty on all parts
Full installation by me (allow two days) (£350 - can be deducted if doing DIY installation)
Plug and play map 190-200bhp
This would enable me to offer the kit at a TOTAL PRICE of £3600.00
To upgrade to 200 cell large sports cat would be a £150 option to at least make it a little bit future proof (to buy the sports cat pipe after the event is £400).
What do people think?
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Plug and play map 190-200bhp
Why do you need this as the PE kit reaches 195 bhp on stock ecu
Quote from: "Peter Wright"Quote from: "MattPerformance"Plug and play map 190-200bhp
Why do you need this as the PE kit reaches 195 bhp on stock ecu
I'll invite comments on that statement as I wasn't aware that it did.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Peter Wright"Quote from: "MattPerformance"Plug and play map 190-200bhp
Why do you need this as the PE kit reaches 195 bhp on stock ecu
I'll invite comments on that statement as I wasn't aware that it did.
I think it's the difference between (IMHO) a bodge (PE) vs a proper job .. But yes, the PE can be run with the stock ECU - fuelling is achieved by fitting a rising rate FPR (presumably 1:1) by modifying the fuel tank and fuel delivery system, and then disconnecting the knock sensor to prevent the stock ECU retarding the timing and killing all the power.. it's certainly not a solution I'd want to be providing a warranty on..
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Peter Wright"Why do you need this as the PE kit reaches 195 bhp on stock ecu
I'll invite comments on that statement as I wasn't aware that it did.
I think it's the difference between (IMHO) a bodge (PE) vs a proper job .. But yes, the PE can be run with the stock ECU - fuelling is achieved by fitting a rising rate FPR (presumably 1:1) by modifying the fuel tank and fuel delivery system, and then disconnecting the knock sensor to prevent the stock ECU retarding the timing and killing all the power.. it's certainly not a solution I'd want to be providing a warranty on..
They now advise you to keep the knock sensor connected !
But this is all above my head s:? :? s:?
Exactly pe kit is generally very good but the duelling solution is a bodge
But then an emanage blue is a couple of hundred quid these days so IMHO there is no excuse for bodging it
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Peter Wright"Why do you need this as the PE kit reaches 195 bhp on stock ecu
I'll invite comments on that statement as I wasn't aware that it did.
I think it's the difference between (IMHO) a bodge (PE) vs a proper job .. But yes, the PE can be run with the stock ECU - fuelling is achieved by fitting a rising rate FPR (presumably 1:1) by modifying the fuel tank and fuel delivery system, and then disconnecting the knock sensor to prevent the stock ECU retarding the timing and killing all the power.. it's certainly not a solution I'd want to be providing a warranty on..
Aha, indeed I see that they have a FPR system as part of the kit. The cost of the parts would be around £150 and fitting is not easy (and once again, not intrinsically reversible) so the S+F price for this addition would be easily £300+ in which case £600 for a proper solution is looking lke sensible value (and it's more futureproof for those wanting the option to go form more power down the line). So that still leaves us at £3600 fitted or £3250 DIY installation, all inclusive.
What about VAT Matt - I take it you are no longer registered?
Thats a good price matt!!
Quote from: "FGrob"What about VAT Matt - I take it you are no longer registered?
That's right. We are effectively discussing the possibility of me (effectively as a sole trader) supplying to customers on an ad-hoc basis. 've tweaked the price to remove VAT from labour, profit and the parts that come from non-VAT registered suppliers. Obviously stuff like the turbo, ECU and intercooler come from large businesses so they still have VAT on them.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Based on a few changes to the existing package I can reduce the cost of the entry level package. The changes are these:
Smaller (& cheaper) 400 cell cat in lieu of large 200 cell sports cat (which is obviously 235bhp capable)
Use stock injectors
6 month warranty on all parts
Full installation by me (allow two days) (£350 - can be deducted if doing DIY installation)
Plug and play map 190-200bhp
This would enable me to offer the kit at a TOTAL PRICE of £3600.00
To upgrade to 200 cell large sports cat would be a £150
*Assuming* that for £3,600 + £150 for cat, that also includes exhaust etc and basically everything that is needed to have the car turbo'd n done n dusted then I'd suggest that a price I'd consider.
I think the key thing, certainly for people like me, is that its a complete package with one price. I don't understand what cats/cells or either really the details on ECU's/maps (well not into this depth anyways) - and to be honest I've not really got the inclination to know (maybe i'd become more interested if i owned, who knows).
If I knew that for £3,500 I could happily drop my car off as a 1.8 n/a on a Thurs morning and drive away on a Friday evening in a 1.8 Turbo with a warranty - happily conscious that it was done n dusted and i had nothing to worry about then that would tick all the boxes for me.
This would also raise it above a V6 i think for me simply due to the "re-sale" value of the Turbo - not that any money would be made back ofc. But.... you see what i mean.
Matt, thats a very good price for the low power kit s:D :D s:D
Oh guys don't even think about not using an aftermarket chip on the turbo kit. Really, the mapping/ECU makes all the difference to the delivery.
The stock exhaust (or any aftermarket one that you might have) will be good for 190-200bhp. The cat pipe however has to be changed because of the exhaust configuration and I am therefore proposing using a 400 cell cat which will be fine up to 200bhp. A 200 cell cat is less dense and therefore flows better and is more suited to higher bhp. The £150 upgrade would therefore be to use a 200 cell cat in place of the 400 cell cat IF you were thinking of going for more power at some point down the road. If not , there is no need for the cat upgrade.
So to answer your question, yes, for £3600 you could "happily drop my car off as a 1.8 n/a on a Thurs morning and drive away on a Friday evening in a 1.8 Turbo with a warranty - happily conscious that it was done n dusted and i had nothing to worry about" :-) :-) :-)
That's absolutely perfect pricing and kit as far as I'm concerned. I may very well be paying you a visit at some point next year.
Sounds good value for money to me.
Has been interesting sitting back and watching this develop, but would have been more interesting if i hadn't already taken the plunge s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The obvious question (to me anyway!) is what happens to the price of the high output kit with the very attractive reduction in the low output kit?
The change in parts and warranty of the low output kit will only drive a slight increase in the differential that existed previously between the two kits surely?
I agree with all the above that the key to the market is making the low output kit more available (in terms of lower pricing), but you do need to ensure good transparency on the pricing as some kits on offer will be plug-and-play whereas others will require additional parts (and therefore additional cost) to get the desired end result.
Andy.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Based on a few changes to the existing package I can reduce the cost of the entry level package. The changes are these:
Smaller (& cheaper) 400 cell cat in lieu of large 200 cell sports cat (which is obviously 235bhp capable)
Use stock injectors
6 month warranty on all parts
Full installation by me (allow two days) (£350 - can be deducted if doing DIY installation)
Plug and play map 190-200bhp
This would enable me to offer the kit at a TOTAL PRICE of £3600.00
To upgrade to 200 cell large sports cat would be a £150 option to at least make it a little bit future proof (to buy the sports cat pipe after the event is £400).
What do people think?
I think that at that price, you render the DIY kit route virtually pointless for other kits with similar target outputs and give people an option to build in future tuning potential. Very good value for money. So good in fact that even though fitting a turbo was at the bottom of my wish list in the quest for more power, it now looks much more appealing.
Also, you turn this thread that was already a bit close to the wind just that little bit closer s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "andywood"The obvious question (to me anyway!) is what happens to the price of the high output kit with the very attractive reduction in the low output kit?
The change in parts and warranty of the low output kit will only drive a slight increase in the differential that existed previously between the two kits surely?
Andy.
Good point, I was wondering the same. Correctly scaled, the pricing could make both the entry level and mid level products hugely attractive.
Quote from: "JiMR2"If I knew that for £3,500 I could happily drop my car off.....
Nice try s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "FGrob"What about VAT Matt - I take it you are no longer registered?
That's right. We are effectively discussing the possibility of me (effectively as a sole trader) supplying to customers on an ad-hoc basis. 've tweaked the price to remove VAT from labour, profit and the parts that come from non-VAT registered suppliers. Obviously stuff like the turbo, ECU and intercooler come from large businesses so they still have VAT on them.
Sole trader or PLC makes little difference, with VAT, once your turnover reaches the threshold, you have to register. You then have to charge VAT on all turnover and can recover it from any VAT invoices into your business. Unless your accountant is very clever.
Quote from: "aaronjb"I think it's the difference between (IMHO) a bodge (PE) vs a proper job .. But yes, the PE can be run with the stock ECU - fuelling is achieved by fitting a rising rate FPR (presumably 1:1) by modifying the fuel tank and fuel delivery system, and then disconnecting the knock sensor to prevent the stock ECU retarding the timing and killing all the power.. it's certainly not a solution I'd want to be providing a warranty on..
The rising rate FPR is actually a good thing, especially if you are looking for big boost later. FPR and ECU is the optimum solution of course, and if I had to choose between the 2 at modest boost levels, I would opt for the ECU solution.
Food for thought indeed...
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"The rising rate FPR is actually a good thing, especially if you are looking for big boost later.
Sure - I'd love one, in fact. But relying on a RR FPR to fool the stock ECU into injecting 'roughly' the right amount of fuel on boost? You can't tell me that's anything but a bodge.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "ChrisGB"The rising rate FPR is actually a good thing, especially if you are looking for big boost later.
Sure - I'd love one, in fact. But relying on a RR FPR to fool the stock ECU into injecting 'roughly' the right amount of fuel on boost? You can't tell me that's anything but a bodge.
As I said..
Quote from: "ChrisGB"The rising rate FPR is actually a good thing, especially if you are looking for big boost later. FPR and ECU is the optimum solution of course, and if I had to choose between the 2 at modest boost levels, I would opt for the ECU solution.
FPR is nice in conjunction with an ECU mod, but as a method of controlling fuelling against boost in isolation, yep, most definitely a bodge s:) :) s:)
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Sole trader or PLC makes little difference, with VAT, once your turnover reaches the threshold, you have to register. You then have to charge VAT on all turnover and can recover it from any VAT invoices into your business. Unless your accountant is very clever.
Quite right. My point really is that I'm no longer operating as a business, these sales would be done as a side line and therefore my turnover would be below the VAT threshold.
As for the FPR discussion, FPRs are only really necessary when you're working with big boost (otherwise the pressure differential between the fuel rail and the inlet manifold is not high enough for good injection). It is also a good way of working with smaller injectors (as we used to do with the original SP240 kit. The problem is that a good quality regulator and all the parts add up to a tidy sum and the installation is fiddly and often problematic (have seen quite a lot of fuel leaks on this kind of set-up) so unless you need a FPR due to boost levels I wouldn't recommend it. I think we're all agreed that the PE solution "works for them" but for a warranted solution and total piece of mind a proper ECU solution is needed.
An interesting thread and one thats close to my heart, or rather has been until recently... s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
There is no questioning the engineering expertise & integrity that went into the tte turbo kit - there just had to be for toyota to put their name to it and offer warranty on it in the first place. This reliability was the major factor that led to me choosing the ttet route over 2 years ago, as I'm no expert grease monkey and have neither the time nor inclination to be dealing with any issues as they'd (almost?) inevitably occur with one of the other kits.
The points about the other mods needed/recommended are valid however I also agree with the view that the kind of person that would be fitting a turbo is likely to have already done or got the budget for other supporting mods already in place. I was lucky in that a complete car with upgraded clutch and exhaust (whether strictly needed or not at the 190hp power level) became available at the time I was looking into the whole situation and so became the no brainer option, especially as I wanted to move away from the smt car at the same time.
The fact that the clutch & exhaust had already been done were a handy future proofing for the time down the road when you get used to the car again and the more power bug bites again, so I personally wouldn't want to restrict myself with hardware decisions taken at install time just to save £150-200 or so but I can understand some people might, so I guess it makes sense to offer it - as long as people understand the implications for future expansion plans.
From a personal point of view, I guess time will tell as to whether there is (still) a market for 2nd hand kits, so the buy back option could potentially be quite interesting... s:) :) s:)
That revised pricing is excellent, very competitive and very tempting, so much so that a me-to-me birthday present for my 25th is already on the cards s:wink: :wink: s:wink: who needs a deposit for a house anyway?
The reason I bought the car in the first place was it's potential. I knew there were lots of options for both this and N/A routes for power gain and I had plans to explore both routes at some point. I always think in the same line matt said "do it properly" and was thinking around the £8,000 mark, so to get it done proper for less than half of that with the ease of just dropping the car off and picking it up with a warranty is very reasonable, I can see it being quite successful.
My only question was the buy back option. Would that be you buying them back from customers at a reduced rate?
Matt
sounds like a better price. When I enquired a few years back, i was looking for approx 3k all in but it was far more than that. What sort of price would you buy it back for, it that was included as a option, someone might do it just so the figures stack up. ie £3500 - buyback of say £2000? - £1500 cost.? you could then sell the 'used' kit for say 2500 fitted?
end of the day, when i sold my 2, it was worth say 5k, putting a turbo on would more or less double the car cost, for which i could get something with more power as standard, which in my eyes was a no-brainer. but a 3k 02 plate now, + 3k would make a nice little track and play car.
i bet the guys currently selling their turbos will be gutted this post has come out now!
good luck Matt, and keep trying to get the price down!
i think buy back will be hard
you can't really set a one size fits all price, how many miles does it have? just warranting againsta anew turbo unit is several hundred quid
I suspect a better way is that each kit has a buy back offer based on its condition and then Matt resells that one as a refurbed kit.
[/quote]
Sole trader or PLC makes little difference, with VAT, once your turnover reaches the threshold, you have to register. You then have to charge VAT on all turnover and can recover it from any VAT invoices into your business. Unless your accountant is very clever.
[/quote]
I am sure Matt would be delighted to sell £70,000's worth of these kits in a rolling 12 month period! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Quote from: "markiii"i think buy back will be hard
you can't really set a one size fits all price, how many miles does it have? just warranting againsta anew turbo unit is several hundred quid
I suspect a better way is that each kit has a buy back offer based on its condition and then Matt resells that one as a refurbed kit.
I was more thinking that eventually you'll get to a point of Market saturation. Every year cars are getting written off or no longer fit for use and every year more people buy turbos. So with less cars on the road and no one left to buy the kits, a buy back option isn't something that should be certain, it would be too costly. Some people would be buying the kit for the security of being able to sell it back (I know that would be something I would like) so maybe reserving the right not to buy it back or only buy the kit back as long as there is sufficient demand? you could have a waiting list for a cheaper refurb option and only buy the kit back if there is someone lined up to take it. Just my thoughts, I'm just finishing work now and am pretty bloody tired so I doubt this makes much sense lol
Quote from: "aglassinthesink"Quote from: "markiii"i think buy back will be hard
you can't really set a one size fits all price, how many miles does it have? just warranting againsta anew turbo unit is several hundred quid
I suspect a better way is that each kit has a buy back offer based on its condition and then Matt resells that one as a refurbed kit.
I was more thinking that eventually you'll get to a point of Market saturation. Every year cars are getting written off or no longer fit for use and every year more people buy turbos. So with less cars on the road and no one left to buy the kits, a buy back option isn't something that should be certain, it would be too costly. Some people would be buying the kit for the security of being able to sell it back (I know that would be something I would like) so maybe reserving the right not to buy it back or only buy the kit back as long as there is sufficient demand? you could have a waiting list for a cheaper refurb option and only buy the kit back if there is someone lined up to take it. Just my thoughts, I'm just finishing work now and am pretty bloody tired so I doubt this makes much sense lol
Makes perfect sense. It all really depends on volume. Mark is right about condition/ mileage/ possible recon costs. Part of the point of this thread (from my point of ivew) is to gauge how many people really want a turbo and then, at what price. Whatever offer (however magical it might be) I could come up with, there would still only be a relatively low take up compared to the whole vehicle PARC, so saturation point could come quite quickly, but I suspect that would be several hundred kits down the line. The bigger issue for me with a buy back (apart from the risks already identified by Markiii) is the amount of money required to buy back a kit (r several!) and the risk of how long it might take to sell, and indeed how much it would sell for in the future. If my margins are trimmed to the bone (which at £3600 they are - unless there is suddenly a big volume jump in which case there are some more savings to find) then any buy back arrangement would have to have a certain amount of contingency in it, which would mean me offering a buy back price which would be derisory.
I think a scheme that could work is a resell deal, whereby when somebody wants to sell their kit on, I will take a look at it, agree a price to return for it, remove the kit FOC (to be fair this would be built into the amount that would be returned for the kit). I could then give the kit a quick refresh (new bits of heatwrap, that sort of thing, so it's tip top for its new owner) and then I sell the kit on with an agreed profit at which point the previous owner receives their money. The advantage of this scheme is that the turbo owner doesn't have to pay out upfront to remove the kit nor do they have to get involved in the sale (unless they want to). The other advantage is that the new buyer of the SH kit would then get total piece of mind and a kit with a new (limited) warranty.
Wherever possible, it's always better to do a turbo transfer from one car to another (because there are a couple of hoses that need to be cut so it's that bit cleaner to do it that way). And of course this scheme pre-supposes that all conversion customers keep all of the stock parts.
While not wanting to hijack the thread, I would like to add my thoughts on the SP kit. I recently purchased the sp240 kit from stargazer and Matt fitted it. I was very impressed with the ease in which it made a customer of my type - uninterested in all of the hassle of fitting...just want a drive in and drive out - feel extremely happy with what I was spending my money on.
Unfortunately all I have really managed since I got home to Scotland was app 40 miles but the drive up the road (370 miles) was fantastic. The car is transformed with a fantastic power delivery...builds and builds and builds...sixth gear becomes usable and you can fend off modern turbo diesels on a motorway which can be an issue on the standard car :-) :-) :-)
Incidentally, I haven't switched to 240hp yet for good reason - road conditions - but I was pretty much caught up in the hype and was convinced that the 200hp kit wasn't enough....I now realise I was doing the usual of just wanting more...with 200hp (or so) this car makes absolute sense.
One other thing, i was a little bit cynical about was the potential fuel consumption after having the turbo fitted...I had drove the 370 miles down at 75 - 80 and I got 42mpg and on the way up I did the same and got 45mpg....and that was with a few clear roads to clear the tubes and see what it can do. It certainly is no worse than standard.
One last thing is that the car now feels far more special than it did previously....hard to put a finger on it but that is how it feels.
Good job guys (Matt and David)
Well done on the purchase, I knew you were hooked when I took you out in mine, roll on the thaw eh! lol.
exactly.... :-) :-) :-) it took me a while though...call it a Christmas present.
Quote from: "ChrisHumes"Matt
i bet the guys currently selling their turbos will be gutted this post has come out now!
It's not the worlds best timing ( s:roll: :roll: s:roll: ), but never mind - all publicity is good publicity as the saying goes, and it does at least prove that I wasn't too far off the mark in setting the price point in the first place.. s:) :) s:)
Matt has since contacted me to offer to fit the kit (as another option from fitting at Markiii's) should that make it easier/more attractive for any potential purchaser and given the developments & comments in this thread, I have revised my FS thread in regard to the turbo..
My 2 cents on the matter:
Personally, as a person who has just bought a '2 as their first real performance car, i dont really think that adding a turbo is a financially viable option.
The work that goes into these kits; from what people have said; is vast. And as a result their price is high. Not going to begrudge that price, if something takes a lot of work and know how to make, and doesnt have a mass market appeal, its going to be expensive.
However, even at £3500 i would have to compare it against similar routes at similar money.
For example, a used 2 is going to run you what? Say £3500 for an early model maybe, if you want a good one. Add in another £3500 for the turbo kit and yeah, it'll take you to about 200BHP and thats fine.
But its then a £7000 car.
And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.
Doesnt seem like a wise choice to me. I'd need it down to silly money like £1500 before it would become viable, and thats just not going to happen. For very good and fair reasons.
All depends on what you want really. If you consider the that the 2 is pretty easy to live with as a sports car, it makes a lot of sense, as some of the alternatives are harder to live with, especially folding roof design. If you want a track weapon, then the alternatives may work better in that area, though a 2 with around 200 horses on tap is a fairly decent piece of kit, and would be a convincing overall package. Just my opinion though. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Fair point, well made
And from my inner child point of view. Everyone expects certain cars to be quick, when you see a porcshe carrera you expect it to be quick what ever model, or when you see a subaru, evo ect. But when a mr2 is surprisingly quick its a shock and a hell of a good feeling for the driver.
Quote from: "calaerial"Some interesting points...
I'd raise some complementary points:
1) The practicality of alternative sports roadsters is hugely compromised (as mentioned)
2) The running costs of running alternatives (VX220, Elise, Boxter etc) is massive by comparison (trust me on this!)
3) Stealth is a great feature of a turbo'd '2 (as mentioned, it really is a great feature s:) :) s:) )
4) 2/3 of what you spend on a turbo kit will be recovered when you remove it and sell it on (unless you keep it for loads of years and miles in which case you'll get a bit less but then you'll have had much more value out of it anyway). So it's actually much better value than the "alternative sports roadsters" - but if you want the styling/ image and sharpness of said alternatives then you've got the wrong car in the first place.
O_o
Did i write that?
Hi Matt,
Apologies if you have already answered these questions.
What would be the expected lifetime mileage for the turbo kit?
Once the expected lifetime has been reached for the kit, how much would it cost to refurbish it, assuming it can be refurbished?
The only part of the kit that could ever really fail would be the turbo itself, and I'd expect to get approx 100K miles from it assuming it's been looked after properly (regular oil changes, no 6bar boost spikes etc). You probably wouldn't bother refurbing a turbo of that age with seals and bearings and whatnot, you'd just buy a new turbo and slap it on.
Quote from: "calaerial"My 2 cents on the matter:
But its then a £7000 car.
And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and Im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.
Doesnt seem like a wise choice to me. I'd need it down to silly money like £1500 before it would become viable, and thats just not going to happen. For very good and fair reasons.
Or you could go spend £10K on a focus ST like I did after I got rid of the Turbo 2. Hmm now lets see....
Handling
MR2 wins
Performance
MR2 wins (assuming 200bhp or more)
Economy
OMG MR2 wins by a mile. 18mpg in the ST round the doors, I may as well just pour petrol on my drive/road and be done with it! lol
Looks
Hmmmmmm... MR2
Comfort
ST - only cause I hate rattles
Audio
ST
Did I mention I miss my MR2? Seriously for a daily driver if you don't need a boot and rear seats £7K for a turbo'd 2 is the best money/performance/economy combo I can think of.
Quote from: "michaelasaunders"Hi Matt,
Apologies if you have already answered these questions.
What would be the expected lifetime mileage for the turbo kit?
Once the expected lifetime has been reached for the kit, how much would it cost to refurbish it, assuming it can be refurbished?
Hi Michael
As Dan says, 100k is a reasonable mileage to expect from the turbo (of course there are documented cases of much more and some with a bit less but that's a realistic expectation). The cost of refurbing the turbo only is around £400 (on an exchange basis) plus labour. A brand new one is about £700. A minor refurb could be as little as £250 though if you just had it overhauled with no major components needing replacing.
Bearing in mind that we're using the same turbo as the TTE kit at the same boost levels we fully expect to see the same kind of life from the turbo in this installation. Does anyone know of a TTE turbo unit "failure"? (I don't)
Matt
Thanks for that.
I can not afford one at the moment, but I am considering it for the future,
Matt,
Could you provide a a curve similar to the first/top one here:
http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=976
- but with a curve that carries on at the same level from 6400rpm to close to 8000rpm, rather than tailing off?
That would give 300bhp+ without pushing much more than about 200ft.lbf through the gearbox and would take my interest away from a Rotrex...
Hi Allan
Let me start by saying that whilst I think the guys at MWR are a good bunch, I don't have a lot of faith in their output number claims (firstly, 10psi will NOT deliver 275whp, secondly, the stock engine will NOT handle 275whp). Nor will the stock 1zz engine rev to near 8000 rpm. The turbo (whether in this form T25, or our Stage 2 T28) will not sustain boost at those kind of RPMs either (whereas a Rotrex could). Without wanting to sound cynical, it's easy for a firm to make such power claims when it is someone else's job to map the car (because they don't offer a map solution). I offer a full drive-in drive-out service with complete warranty and complete piece of mind.
My experience of the '2 indicates that the 'box is capable of handling up to 240ftlb in normal road use but of course with an electronic boost controller it is fine to limit the boost in the mid-range to cap the torque at 200ftlb if that's what you want. That said, the electronic boost control option adds to the cost and even at that torque you'd almost certainly need an uprated clutch so you're already heading into territory well beyond the £3,600.
I guess it's just a matter of whether you're looking for something which is tried and tested and ready to go out of the box or whether you want something more custom (I'm assuming the Rotrex option you have in mind is custom?). The custom route may ultimately give you more of what you want but it carries two risks: 1) if it doesn't work out first time (and it rearely does) it can cost a packet and 2) it'll be a bit of an unknown come resale time so may not have such a good resale price.
Hope that helps.
Matt
Quote from: "AllanE"Matt,
Could you provide a a curve similar to the first/top one here:
http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=976
- but with a curve that carries on at the same level from 6400rpm to close to 8000rpm, rather than tailing off?
That would give 300bhp+ without pushing much more than about 200ft.lbf through the gearbox and would take my interest away from a Rotrex...
Matt,
OK, so if the 'box will handle 240ft.lbf, that's even better - @ 8000rpm that's 366bhp.
Additional cost of a boost controller is not an issue, neither is resale value, or 'above £3 600'.
I already have a 4-puck clutch in me bedroom, together with the Crower st. 3 cams (I want to make power beyond 7000rpm), rods, valves, springs, fidanza flywheel, Apexi PFC etc.
Reliability is important, which is why I also have £900 worth of Toyota engine parts in me bedroom (82mm sleeved block is in the garage).
Both TTS and some guys in the states seem to have Rotrex setups reasonably sussed.
Can you give me a reliable >200ft.lbf from 4-8000rpm?
matt fitted my tte turbo and i have had no trouble with it at all , just 3 years of turbo induced grin every time i floor the throttle s:D :D s:D .... my car only has around 190 bhp but even that is enough to fire this little car down the road at a rate of knots . at york last year i did a 1/4 mile in 14.6s beating a seat cupra r which had 297bhp , i dont think this car needs 300 or 400 bhp.... dont stress test the engine and gearbox to their limits and have a well set up turbo fitted and you should get many trouble free miles out of it
Matt certainly has experience with turbo setups on the 1ZZ. 300+bhp is nothing new for him and I thoroughly recommend him for both his off the shelf kit or for a custom setup. s:) :) s:) I wouldn't be surprised if mine is making north if 350bhp on high boost (certainly if/when I increase my rev limit). Will find out in a month or so when I finally get round to having it mapped s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "muffdan"Matt certainly has experience with turbo setups on the 1ZZ. 300+bhp is nothing new for him and I thoroughly recommend him for both his off the shelf kit or for a custom setup. s:) :) s:) I wouldn't be surprised if mine is making north if 350bhp on high boost (certainly if/when I increase my rev limit). Will find out in a month or so when I finally get round to having it mapped s:) :) s:)
Can I have your car??? s:) :) s:)
Since matt is being nice
I'll just say it,
I wouldn't touch mwr with your bargepole for anything they have developed in house
I'm glad Mark said exactly what I'd been thinking, I wouldn't go near them.
Back to Matt's products and I think that barring specialist cars, around the 200 horse mark is a real sweet spot for the Roadster, especially when reliability of all the major components is factored in.
Custom stuff can be interesting, but also unpredictable and expensive, not to mention time and a deal of patience. The main conversions that Matt has mentioned have all been developed and are proven in a lot of cars.
matt
did you settle on a price for future turbo conversions?
chris
Quote from: "calaerial"And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and Im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.
I had a run out though the Peak district with a VX220 and a mk2 Elise through the summer, and while they were loads faster than my standard MR2, they were moaning about sudden loss of rear grip through the 13bends, and fear of crashing.
Clearly I can't comment upon whether the problem was car or driver s;) ;) s;)
IMHO the Elise and (presumably) VX220's aren't all that when compared to a turbo'd, well planted MR2 from a performance point of view. Yes the Elise/VX handle a little better through more raw grip but its not as much of a difference as you'd think. When factoring in comfort/practicality and running costs etc the MR2, even if it worked out at the same price as an Elise, is still a contender worthy of consideration. A turbo'd MR2 is much quicker than a regular Elise/VX in a straight line and through my experience on track, a turbo'd MR2 is quicker in terms of lap times. Yes, you can modify the Elise/VX to make them better too, but that will then cost significantly more than the modified MR2 and so price comparisions aren't as fair any more.
(Prepares for s:flame: :flame: s:flame: )
Quote from: "muffdan"Yes the Elise/VX handle a little better through more raw grip but its not as much of a difference as you'd think.
Last year at Snetterton an Elise and I had a few laps together, I was much quicker than the Elise through the corners, bat alas straight line speed he lost me, now I am turbo-ed I would love to try again
Pete
Matt having read through this I would say that price level for the kit your offering is excellent and should attract a few buyers even at the low value of the current MR2's.
Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "brad82"Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
ooooh very good, lets us know how it goes. Been out in a turbo mk3 this weekend as a passenger and it is very tempting.
Quote from: "brad82"Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
A lot slower than the car will go once you get it back I reckon s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Chris
You are going to love it Brad. I still very fondly remember the drive home when I first got boosted.
Which power level did you go for?
Quote from: "PeteT"Quote from: "brad82"Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
ooooh very good, lets us know how it goes. Been out in a turbo mk3 this weekend as a passenger and it is very tempting.
Do it Pete s:D :D s:D
for the money you can't go wrong with a turbo, if money is not option consider a V6 or 2zz as alternatives, i love the 2zz, always leaves me smiling, much more than my turbo did.
Quote from: "Ilogik"for the money you can't go wrong with a turbo, if money is not option consider a V6 or 2zz as alternatives, i love the 2zz, always leaves me smiling, much more than my turbo did.
But you never quite got your turbo right to be fair. Jamfe355, the new owner of your kit, has had his car remapped at Redline (according to the SP formula) and it made just shy of 240bhp s:) :) s:)
Aww I want one so badly!! Anyone fancy treating me? Belated Xmas gift!? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Ilogik"for the money you can't go wrong with a turbo, if money is not option consider a V6 or 2zz as alternatives, i love the 2zz, always leaves me smiling, much more than my turbo did.
But you never quite got your turbo right to be fair. Jamfe355, the new owner of your kit, has had his car remapped at Redline (according to the SP formula) and it made just shy of 240bhp s:) :) s:)
Mine was re mapped in the end at Weston Performance by Greg Gush who now owns Protuner, I made 239, just didn't enjoy it as much as when I had my n/a, especially when the pipes started messing up and it meant having to faff around getting replacement parts from TTE. You sorted all these issues so your kit is plug and play, mine was kinda plug and play up to the point of me wasting lots of time and effort with the clueless/useless Thor racing who couldn't get the car right so I ended up losing faith
Quote from: "brad82"Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
.....and how long will it take to get you back there to have some high output additions made?? The temptation of more power will break a man.... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Either way you are going to love it, all the new sounds alone will bring a smile to your face.
Andy
Quote from: "brad82"Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed s:D :D s:D
Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: how slow will time go now s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Nice looking car mate, loved the wheels and spoiler - it was me who pulled up with my TTE for a quick service just as you were leaving. Matt will do a sterling job on your car and it will blow you away when you get it back.
Anyone else contemplating a kit from Matt,
DO IT. Ive got 30,000mls on my kit now including a few track days without issue. Fool proof kit and Matt is always there to service and maintain the car for you.
Let us know how you get on when you get the car back, the first time you take it out and accellerate the car will litterally hurl you down the road, great feeling!!! s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "andywood".....and how long will it take to get you back there to have some high output additions made?? The temptation of more power will break a man.... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Either way you are going to love it, all the new sounds alone will bring a smile to your face.
Andy
I havent got it back yet and erm the additions have been given the nod s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "ninjinski"Nice looking car mate, loved the wheels and spoiler - it was me who pulled up with my TTE for a quick service just as you were leaving. Matt will do a sterling job on your car and it will blow you away when you get it back.
Let us know how you get on when you get the car back, the first time you take it out and accellerate the car will litterally hurl you down the road, great feeling!!!
thanks mate, i'm really looking forward to that first drive bet it really sticks in your mind s:D :D s:D
Good lad Brad, you won't regret it!
I'll have to get to an essex meet at some point when you get it back to remind myself what i'm missing... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Sorry I'm new, is Matt still doing these kits and where is he located thanks
He is not. You'd be very lucky to find a kit come up for sale 2nd hand. And you'd be even luckier to convince Matt to fit it s:) :) s:)
Whifbitz or custom seems to be the way forward at the minute
Terry
As above, better to by the whole car rather than trying to source a second hand kit.
Also Terry, it might be worth having a go in someone's turbo first as it's an entirely different experience. There's even people who have had turbos and gone to 2zz or v6 conversions afterwards and enjoyed it more.
Nothing to do with me but as luck would have it there is a Silver turbo converted FL model on eBay for five bags
That is one understated 2! Looks very tidy.
Quote from: "StuC"That is one understated 2! Looks very tidy.
I think its the colour s;) ;) s;)
Obvs I can't agree to that
s;-) ;-) s;-)
Quote from: "shnazzle"Also Terry, it might be worth having a go in someone's turbo first as it's an entirely different experience. There's even people who have had turbos and gone to 2zz or v6 conversions afterwards and enjoyed it more.
Wise words! Turbos can be a lot of fun, but may not suit everyone. I am quite enjoying N/A 1zz motoring again, and really like the sounds. Just got to get My Apexi PFC fixed and smooth it all out a bit! s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "loadswine"Quote from: "shnazzle"Also Terry, it might be worth having a go in someone's turbo first as it's an entirely different experience. There's even people who have had turbos and gone to 2zz or v6 conversions afterwards and enjoyed it more.
Wise words! Turbos can be a lot of fun, but may not suit everyone. I am quite enjoying N/A 1zz motoring again, and really like the sounds. Just got to get My Apexi PFC fixed and smooth it all out a bit! s;) ;) s;)
You've just jogged my memory Nige will dig out my instruction booklet and scan a copy over !
Thanks Bernie! s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "shnazzle"He is not. You'd be very lucky to find a kit come up for sale 2nd hand. And you'd be even luckier to convince Matt to fit it s:) :) s:)
Whifbitz or custom seems to be the way forward at the minute
Whifbitz has removed their kit from their webshop now as well
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Quote from: "shnazzle"He is not. You'd be very lucky to find a kit come up for sale 2nd hand. And you'd be even luckier to convince Matt to fit it s:) :) s:)
Whifbitz or custom seems to be the way forward at the minute
Whifbitz has removed their kit from their webshop now as well
No big loss really from what I hear
Think lee may disagree with you there.
Although he has a few extras fitted i think.
I still think you could put together a kit of brand new parts for under 3k that would make around 250bhp.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Think lee may disagree with you there.
Although he has a few extras fitted i think.
I still think you could put together a kit of brand new parts for under 3k that would make around 250bhp.
Exactly, I think he said all he has left is the turbo and manifold?
Quote from: "1979scotte"Think lee may disagree with you there.
Although he has a few extras fitted i think.
I still think you could put together a kit of brand new parts for under 3k that would make around 250bhp.
I'd be interested to see that list
Having spoken to Paul via email today, they haven't stopped making the kit. It has been taken off the site as they need to find a new manufacturer for the manifold and this may take some time.
Currently I have a few options:-
Wait for the whifbitz kit
Buy the The BLF one
Go my own way and build my own kit from bits and bobs sourced on the internet
Choose your manifold first then decide which turbo to go for.
After that it is engine management.
Choose intercooler or charge cooler then its a case of plumbing it togethet.
Or you could wait and see if the guys get a supercharger kit going.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Choose your manifold first then decide which turbo to go for.
After that it is engine management.
Choose intercooler or charge cooler then its a case of plumbing it togethet.
Or you could wait and see if the guys get a supercharger kit going.
I do like the idea of the supercharger project and I'm assisting where I can, but as I'm going for the MRS200 body conversion over the winter I really need the turbo kit to do it justice. Can't have a Group B tribute and not have wastegate chatter and flames.
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To do that bodykit justice youll need a built engine and a gearbox swap.
Quote from: "1979scotte"To do that bodykit justice youll need a built engine and a gearbox swap.
Yeah a twin turbo 2GR would be a good place to start.
Quote from: "MR TWO"Quote from: "1979scotte"To do that bodykit justice youll need a built engine and a gearbox swap.
Yeah a twin turbo 2GR would be a good place to start.
I disagree, the Rs200 was
only a 4 pot single turbo s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Swap in an rs500 lump then
Quote from: "1979scotte"Swap in an rs500 lump then
Now theres a thought.....