Hi guys,
Recently joined the site after being turned to the mk3 by Nic Wabbitkilla, I came from a mk2 turbo so wanted something without the flaws of the sw20 chassis but with the effortless power delivery.This is what i ended up buying
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0259.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/B15HOH006.jpg)
As most of you will know this car has been associated with ROC for quite some time and i purchased it from Steve of MR2Only mag fame.
The car is a '53 Hass stage 2 turbo conversion and is claimed to be making around 220bhp and it certainly feels like it is s:D :D s:D I have nicknamed the car 'The Banzai Buzz Bomb' s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
From my experience with the mk2 i found that a well installed chargecooler makes a huge difference to the turbo charged mr2's and this is something i am going to do on the mk3.
The car is currently fitted with a 'precision' intercooler which i presume was part of the Hass kit,and it looks a good piece of kit but it is mounted so the air flow would have to go under the car and then turn upward through 90degrees to flow through the intercooler,not ideal and lots of room for improvement.
I could have fabricated some form of scoop under the IC but this would only make the ground clearance worse and i love to take the roadster on runs in the Dales s:D :D s:D
My plan over the next few months is to install this little beauty
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0295.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0297.jpg)
It's a 4"x10" barrel chargecooler and is advertised as being good for upto 320bhp, more than enough for my plans s:D :D s:D
I managed to get this at a bargain price on ebay (less than 50% of its retail price) and intend to fit this in place of the IC,included with the chargecooler was this bracket which should make mounting the unit a breeze.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0296.jpg)
Aswell as the chargecooler itself i also purchased this from AVT which will make the installation and subsequent bleeding of the system much easier,negating the need for a header tank.I will just mount this in the hose at the highest point.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/filler21.jpg)
For the heart of the system i intend to use the pump from my mk2's old chargecooler system,this is an OEM Toyota pump from a celica GT4 and is huge and more than capable of pumping enough water round the system, it also has the advantage of being rebuildable should it ever fail.
I also hope to re-use the radiator from my mk2 system,this was the radiator from a fiat cinquecento which i'm hoping will fit into the roadster's nose.
Recently i have spoken to Ste and Nic about the project and hopefully this will be going ahead at the 'spitstop' once the weather improves a little s8) 8) s8)
That's it for now but i'll update the thread as things progress s:D :D s:D
Steve
if the fiat rad doesn;t work then a metro turbo one will
Thanks Mark, i'll keep that in mind s:) :) s:) used to have an MG metro turbo, rotted like bad teeth but was fantastic fun to drive s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I wish my barrel had come with a mount like that! I had to get two giant P clips made up (good job my Dad worked somewhere with a big engineering shop at the time s:D :D s:D )
Just a little update, this weekend Nic and Ste have kindly offered to help me with the install of the chargecooler s:D :D s:D
So today i had a trip out and bought the silicone hoses for the chargecooler install this weekend, there was two ways of doing the install that i could see and each had pro's and con's
Cooler next to battery:
This was my original idea,the cooler would sit next to the battery and be plumbed in just before the throttle body, this would shorten the length of pipework to the turbo therefore reducing lag( if there was any :laughing ) and keep the cooler away from any heat source.
However mounting in this position would make bleeding the cooler a pain due to it being at the highest point and also would mean moving the MAF to another location in the pipework and as the Hass kit comes with a custom inlet tube with MAF adapter this was something i didn't want to do.
Cooler behind subframe in Hass IC position:
This is the position i will go with, the cooler will fit in the place of the stock IC neatly behind the subframe, in this position it will be at the lowest point so will be beneficial to bleeding but also be away from heat source and as a bonus be in the airflow under the car so gain cooling from that too :clapping:
the downside of this location is the length of pipework from turbo to throttle body but being as my car uses a GT28RS turbo there is very little if any lag anyway so should not be an issue, i believe chargecoolers have very little pressure drop compared to intercoolers anyway so i should see a healthy increase for the same boost level :th:
Here are the silicone elbows which take the 2" pipework of the Hass kit up to the 2 1/4" inlet of the chargecooler and visa versa at the outlet end and the clamps which go with them.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0341.jpg)
and here are the elbows in their fitted positions on the cooler.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0340.jpg)
The small length of silicone hose in the picture is a 2" jointer that i got incase i need to alter the Hass pipework to accept the different length of the chargecooler compared to the Hass intercooler.
Good luck with this Steve,
I am very interested as I plan to do this myself in the coming months s:) :) s:)
Do you have the standard Hass exhaust,or a custom one?
Any pics / write up you can do on this would be very very helpful!
Cheers,
Paul
it's more of a drainpipe than an exhaust,sounds horrific s:lol: :lol: s:lol: i think it was fabricated by a previous owner,the car is going into Zorstec in Bradford in the next couple of weeks for a full stainless system making up with a silencer to make the car more track friendly s8) 8) s8)
My other half Tara will be along with us at the garage this weekend so i'll ask her to take lots of photos of the work as we go along s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "steve-m-uk"it's more of a drainpipe than an exhaust,sounds horrific s:lol: :lol: s:lol: i think it was fabricated by a previous owner,the car is going into Zorstec in Bradford in the next couple of weeks for a full stainless system making up with a silencer to make the car more track friendly s8) 8) s8)
My other half Tara will be along with us at the garage this weekend so i'll ask her to take lots of photos of the work as we go along s:D :D s:D
Drainpipe is just about right, drrrroooooone, I am very interested to see what Zorstec come up with for a Hass kit! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I have been to one (Powerflow) exhaust place and he really didn't fill me with confidence, so still looking for options. I want/need to keep the lower cross member free, as that is where I want to put my PWR barrel.
So many things to do s:D :D s:D
Paul
Yes it is a bit of a drainpipe s:lol: :lol: s:lol: The original exhaust failed at several points in its trombone journey around the back of the car. The quick and cheap solution to getting it roadworthy again was to cut out the broken bends and run pretty much straight out.
I think Steve (previous owner Steve) would've changed this if he'd opted to keep the car for longer. I'm sure Zorstec'll do a great job on it.
I am very confident Zorstec will do a great job. They have made a fantastic job of mine s:D :D s:D
Yesterday myself,Nic and Ste set about fitting the chargecooler , what a job it turned out to be, requiring removal of the front and rear bumpers to do properly and the hardest part was bleeding the system,which we still haven't managed to do s:) :) s:) so back again tomorrow to carry on :th:
here's some pics from today of the progress:
Ste having a 'moment'
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0342-1.jpg)
hovering roadster
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0343-1.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0344-1.jpg)
Test fit to check position
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0345-1.jpg)
the filler pot
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0346.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0347-1.jpg)
GT4 pump neatly fitted to gearbox casing using GT4 mounting :th:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0348-1.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0352-1.jpg)
The connections and routing of the pipes at the front rad
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0349.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0350-1.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0351-1.jpg)
Whilst i was underneath it seemed a good time to fit the front member brace
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0351-1.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0353.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0354-1.jpg)
The cable ties will be clipped neatly once we are happy with the system.
The finished under bonnet shot
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0357.jpg)
A couple of pics of the car looking stripped :crybaby:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0355-1.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0356.jpg)
All in all a good days work, will finish today we hope s:) :) s:)
Hey Steve (and team),
Did you manage to get this finished off, looks like it turned out to be a bit epic!
Hope you got all sorted in the end
Cheers,
Paul
Yes Paul, it's finished s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: took some bleeding but once the pump primed it started firing the coolant round and quickly got the air out aided by Ste using a crop sprayer to force water into the rad bleed tube. The pump was wired with a 4pin relay and takes it's trigger from the ignition live on the boomslang harness at the ecu.
Took the car on a little blast around the Manchester ring road and first impressions are very good,the car certainly pulls better and the front lifts more under acceleration, there is noticeably more torque and it now flashes the peak boost warning (set at 10psi) which it didn't do before so there is obviously less pressure drop. But the proof was when we pulled back into the spitstop and popped the bonnet,the engine and turbo were hot as hell which is normal after a run but the chargecooler had condensation on the outside and was really cold, result s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: the car does seem to run smoother than before too with the exhaust note sounding less angry than before with less popping and banging.
Whilst we were in the front we noticed the stock radiator is a little perished so i have ordered a new one and will get that fitted asap s:) :) s:)
Can't thank Ste and Nic enough for all the help this weekend,cheers guys s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Ready to roll s8) 8) s8)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0362.jpg)
Result! What did i tell you Steve, the PWR barrel / CC set up is bloody fantastic.
Get it re-mapped next once your [exciting s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ] exhaust idea comes off and I reckon you'll be cranking out 270+. You might end up in the scenario where you have to reign it in as if you approach 300 the rods will wilt.
This morning i took the roadster over to Zorstec in Shipley near Bradford, i knew these guys of old as they built a fantastic system for a friend of mine with a Peugeot 205 that had a Mi16 engine fitted with twin 45 webbers and it was a work of art, more recently they did a great job on PeteT's roadster so i was confident that these were the guys to sort the exhaust that has been a pain in the backside (and eardrums)on this car for the last few owners s:D :D s:D
On inspection of the car the Zorstec guys commented on how they could make a much better job of the boost pipework replacing the Hass gear and re-route the hard pipes for the chargecooler to move it forward onto the subframe and shorten the overall length,a deal was struck were they will make custom hardpipes out of polished stainless steel and move the cooler to a better position under the turbo and then fabricate a custom exhaust system out of stainless steel that will make the car quiet enough to be used on any track s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: this work will have the added benefit of nothing being compromised,the Zorstec guys can make the hardpipes to suit any position they choose for the cooler and fit the exhaust system into the available space this will create,Car goes in next Wednesday for two days and should be ready in time for the OC dyno day s:D :D s:D can't wait s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Great news Steve .... the Zorstec guys are a happy bunch of enthusiasts. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Was a tiring weekend made better by achieving the result.
Almost makes me want to go turbo myself and cut the noise down from my car too.
Smashing news that Steve. Are Zorstec going to sort mani and bracing at the same time?
No Ste, i'll get the manifold repaired by them later and make a brace up myself as the funds don't quite stretch that far s:) :) s:) they took a look at it and can do it easily so it's on the list of to do's.
Steve,
That is great news all round, I am chuffed for you, and very jealous!!
Just makes me look forward to doing the same with mine even more, sounds like putting the barrel on the lower cross member is definitely the way forward. I have all the parts that I need for my cc install now, but think I will have to do things in reverse order to you - I want to get the exhaust sorted first (as I need to make room in the engine bay), so pending on how your system turns out I think a visit to Zorstec may be on the cards in the near future.
Well done all
Cheers,
Paul
Hi Steve,
Any update on this, I am itching to hear s:) :) s:)
Paul
Not yet Paul, car is going in this Wednesday for the zorstec treatment s:) :) s:) still working fine though so far.
Quote from: "steve-m-uk"Not yet Paul, car is going in this Wednesday for the zorstec treatment s:) :) s:) still working fine though so far.
Annnnnnnd? s:D :D s:D
So how did the visit to Zorstec go? C'mon Steve, you are my guinea pig here s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Hope it all went well bud,
Paul
Not really, the car came back from Zorstec with no cat fitted even though it went in with one s:? :? s:? and they didn't even fit the post cat sensor (they took it out of the old exhaust and left it on the passenger seat) so now i'm stuck with a CEL all the time s:x :x s:x
The exhaust itself is very good quality but i now have to send the car back to be done again because they didn't listen to what i wanted in the first place. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
They did do a good job of the chargecooler pipes and moved the cooler up onto the subframe which is much better.
This weekend the car went to RS tuning to be dynoed and made 218.9bhp but was running dangerously lean so is going back for a remap in a couple of weeks, also Ste noticed the manifold is cracked so that needs welding and bracing before mapping.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0365.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0368.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0367.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0366.jpg)
3 observations
1. suggest you wrap teh exhaust outlet from teh turbo its way too close to you chargecooler pipes
2. you need a heat shield between exhaust and PWR barrell
3. if getting teh manifold fixed get the to weld teh inside of teh T3 flange as well, Hass didn't do that and its weak as hell
Thanks markiii, i will wrap the system as far as the cat once it's been back for it fitting s:) :) s:) i think it's the angle i took the photo but the chargecooler pipe isn't as close as it appears in the photo so should be ok i think. Good call on the manifold, i'll get that done too as i don't want to remove it again if it can be avoided.
I'm on the lookout for some Lotus exige 440cc injectors next as i believe the MWR 380cc ones i have will prevent me reaching the 270bhp i would like to achieve is this correct?
Philster hit 270bhp and I hit 269bhp on those injectors
and they weren't maxed
so personally i don;t see them being your stumbling block
charge temps will likely be an issue before that
Ah I see, I was just going by MWR's site that lists the 380cc ones as being good for upto 200whp which I read as good for upto around 225-230fly assuming 15% losses, but as you guys have walked the walk ill listen to your advice and keep the 380's, cheers for that saved me some money.
Whilst I'm at it is there anything else causing a bottleneck in my setup to prevent me reaching 270fly? In brief I have stock fuel rail and regulator ( afaik ) ,380cc injectors,emanage blue and profec e-01, 3" exhaust ( when completed ) with 100cell sport cat , pwr 320hp rated chargecooler.
Is there anything I need to update or replace before I have it mapped?
I will be heat wrapping the exhaust as advised.
that was enough for me on my Hass to get to 269bhp
and I had teh intercooler in place at teh time
i think you should be fine
Excellent,I know nothing is guaranteed and cars differ but now I can get it mapped with a realistic goal in mind, thankyou.
worth thinking about how much boost you want to run
my Hass made 269bhp at 10psi
Phils C2 made 270 bhp at 12PSI
both intercooled
now Hass at 12psi with chargecooler
I reckon nigh on 300bhp should be acheivable
Mark, we're having a spot of bother with the Profec E-01.
It works as the boost controller ok ... by appearances, but its USB isn't plugged into the e-Manage.
When we plug it into the e-Manage the Profec just displays an error.
Now I haven't had the chance to log onto the e-Manage yet and find what software version it's running and am thinking there's some mis-match between the Profec software version and the e-Manage version. I've downloaded the e-Manage updates from Greddy, but Profec E-01 seems to be discontinued and they don't show any software updates for it ... nor old softwares. MOHDparts is none-existent now too.
Any clues?
ah yes I remember these problems
assuming that teh current emanage map is setup to use teh MAP sensor as it was when Dan had it (long long time ago)
you want boost pressure sensor plugged into emanage, passthrough cable from emanage to profec and that will work fine
plugging teh usb between them allows you to display readings teh emanage can see via its harness (possibly useful) and also program teh emange via teh profec (theoretically useful but real world a pain due to teh size of teh screen)
most of teh time I ran mine teh usb wasn't connected.
however as you rightlyu say if you do want to connect them, they have to be running compatable versions of teh software. Again this was sorted when Dan owned teh car buts a lost probably changed since then.
from memory your ok with teh Profec running a newer version of software than teh emanage, but not vice versa
I have version 125 and 149 of teh emanage firmware if that helps but don't seem to have anything for teh Profec. From memory the Profec firmware has to be loaded onto teh flash card which is then inserted in teh Profec, my Profec is probably running a newer version if you can find who currently has it.
I sold to Simon C, anyne know whoc he sold the kit on to?
if I can help just shout
Both need compatible firmware, I think that was my issue. I never got around to updating the profec one, but it does give you the option to display a few more values from the e-manage.
I was displaying boost and throttle position iirc. You can see whats going on then.
Anyone else looking at this I still have a brand new PWR for sale in the for sale area.
Phil
Quote from: "markiii"worth thinking about how much boost you want to run
my Hass made 269bhp at 10psi
Phils C2 made 270 bhp at 12PSI
both intercooled
now Hass at 12psi with chargecooler
I reckon nigh on 300bhp should be acheivable
Going by your results i'll set my high boost at 10psi and my everyday lower boost level at 8psi , i will be more than happy if it makes 270hp but i'd like to leave that little safety margin rather than boost at 12psi and push for 300hp,as i understand it the rods turn to cheese around the 300hp mark so i'd rather not push my luck s:) :) s:)
As you can see Nic is on the case with the electronics and i'm very grateful ( he is like my Yoda for the mk3 ) s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
not sure how much Nic or yourself has played with teh Profec as yet but one of teh things I liked most was teh start boost function, which nails the wastegate shut until you reach that point then opens it progressively from there to target boost as per normal spring operation.
when set properly it makes a HUGE difference to lag
I have downloaded a manual for the profec and been studying it, as i read it you set your start boost 3psi lower than your final target boost level and then do a couple of 3rd gear pulls to allow the profec to work out the best gain settings in auto mode or you can manually input the values and experiment s8) 8) s8) i should imagine that with the wastegate held shut until 7psi it will be quite ferocious when it spools up s:D :D s:D I did find a setting to monitor 'charge efficiency' but it doesn't give a value yet,maybe this is one of the features that the usb cable supports? I'll wait until Nic has chance to put a safer map on the car and then i'll set the boost up ready for the dyno.
Me?
Safer map?
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Charge efficiency is monitored on the e-Manage (from memory), so we need the usb working to guarantee best tune.
If there is some firmware issue it's likely we won't get the Profec to work properly as it's a discontinued product and Trust/Greddy don't offer support or updates for it anymore ... a poor show on their part imho. Need to contact people who own Profec E-01's to see if we can get updates and ideas why te usb isn't working. I've been searching google, SC, us, and Greddy for data but not having any luck so far.
Add to that I'm now working on my PFC and dataloggit due to some mapping issue introduced by Noble last time I was there.
Can't get Co-Pilot working with my dataloggit at all.
from memory charge efficiency is something teh emanage blue has no knowledge of, unless you have fashioned some kind of circuit and fed teh output into one of teh emanage additional inputs?
start boost at 7psi is actuall imho a good thing
manual v auto for setting start boost, if you can get auto working yoru a better man than I as neither Sean, Dan, myself ever managed to get it working properly. Even Thor agreed auto setting is sshit shit sshit
set it manually for all round least hassle
I think you're right about CE Mark, I remember the E-Manage Ultimate does have a Charge Efficiency feed out, but I haven't played with the EMB in that detail (yet - obviously).
I think the Profec added to the EMB gives the same kind of automated self-tune the EMU has built in.
But they aren't the most effective and I would hope they would go for the safer side of tuning.
Steve is going to get this setup on the rolling road at RS-Tuning on the 8th so I'm sure we can have it setup optimally for set levels of boost, this will be the best scenario. Maybe the usb becomes redundant at that point, but it would be nice to have the mapping accessed from the Profec for future reference. Everyone always need to borrow Ste's access dongle for accessing the EMB and it would be nice to have another option.
I have my netbook now which has decent battery life and the access software works a treat in W7.
I think I need to get some training and experience in the mapping side of things.
I'll have a play with the auto setup and see but as you say will more than likely input the settings i have seen on here for 10psi and take it from there s:) :) s:)
Afaik there is no extra wiring so the charge efficiency must be an unused feature. Ah Nic beat me to it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Spent today round at the Spitstop with Ste and removed the cracked Hass manifold for welding, it came off relatively easy considering how hard it is to access some of the bolts s:) :) s:) this is how the manifold looked once removed
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0376.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0377.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0375.jpg)
The manifold was then taken to Charlesworth where the guys tig welded up the manifold to a much better standard than it originally was, an excellent job that they did for me for which i am very grateful s8) 8) s8) I am now going to get together some steel bar and fashion a brace to support the turbo assembly and hopefully prevent future cracking. I must also thank Ste for putting me up on Thursday night and helping me with the manifold s8) 8) s8) and also RobMason who ordered and collected the new manifold gasket for me on Thursday,cheers guys s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
When i arrived home this evening i found a parcel waiting for me which turned out to be the 100 cell sport cat i ordered
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0379.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0378.jpg)
Zorstec will be fitting this in place of the pre silencer on Tuesday and also welding in a post cat sensor port,once this is all done i should be ready for mapping s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
The only other job i am considering beforehand is possibly removing the injectors and having them ultrasonically cleaned and flow tested but i'm undecided as yet whether i will.
Jeez s:shock: :shock: s:shock: that manifold was well on its way!
Good work for all concerned s:D :D s:D
Steve and Nic.... any chance in helping me out with my setup when I see you at the mapping? I have instructions but its like reading French to me I really don't have a clue s:( :( s:(
Once someone has shown me the way tho, i'll pick it up s:) :) s:)
Cheers
Vinny
Why what's up with your setup Vin?
I've got the whole day off so I should think we'll have time for tinkering.
I'm no expert with the Profec, but have the tools for the E-Manage.
As far as I know its all fine, I just don't know how to work anything s:( :( s:(
I have no idea what my hi and low boost settings are or how to change them... Tbh once it is set up nicely I probably won't touch it but it would be nice to know how if I ever need to s:) :) s:)
I would watch out for the auto tuning, istrc people saying it did odd spikes.
I think the stock wastegate spring on my gt28r was at about 6 psi so 6 or 7 is fine for your start number and it stops it slowly opening at first as mark said. I have seen peaks of 13.5 psi so there shouldnt be anything to worry about at around 10-12. there is only 3 numbers to tweak so you will get the hang of it soon enough.
But Im not sure what is low boost s:P :P s:P
Phil
High and Lo boost are just 2 settings
you pick one setting for each so, you might decide to have low set to 8psi and high to 12psi, on the basis that you run at 8 day to day and turn it up when teh need/desire takes you
I beleive you can/could also buy a steering wheel mounted button whihc when pressed automatically enable teh high boost setting, useful for drag races and extra power for overtaking
Ok i got the car back from Zorstec and this time they have done as i wanted s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
The car now has a 100cell sports cat and it's post cat sensor in place so throws no codes s:D :D s:D
Here are a few pictures of the system
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0381.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0380.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0382.jpg)
And also a picture of the Hass manifold now it has been repaired by Charlesworth
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0383.jpg)
This weekend i'll make a support brace for the turbo and manifold, and polish up the exhaust s:D :D s:D
I am also toying with the idea of replacing the emanage with a power fc if i can get one before the mapping day.
I have been reading on spyderchat about how the stock ecu can interfere with the fuelling of the emanage and pull the map out of tune, requiring the battery to be disconnected to return to the correct map, this doesn't sound good and i wonder if my very lean dyno pull was down to this s:? :? s:?
Great news Steve, glad you now have things sorted s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I am v jealous!
Paul
Thanks Paul s:) :) s:) I just need to make my mind up over the ecu, I think I will see what the emanage can do first and if it does the job ill keep it, if not ill get a power fc on the job.
I have noticed lately that the car seems to have what feels like a misfire when below 1500rpm and the engine is cold, it doesn't do this when up to temp however. It idles fine but does it when you are setting off in first gear, any ideas? There are no codes stored so could it be a map issue maybe?
It could be a handful of things Steve. Lumpy when cold is probably not too surprising given the range of adaptations from stock to your setup.
Best bet would be to get those injectors ultrasonically cleaned before the mapping to ensure they're not squirting chunks!
And clean the MAF too - Although you're getting mapped to pressure, the ECU is still twiddling according to your MAF reading and might be a tad sluggish when you blip a load onto the engine from cold.
Your mismatched O2s aren't likely to be a factor on cold pick-up, and they do seem to be doing their thing OK on warm idle and tootle.
Thanks Ste, i'll get on the case and have them done s8) 8) s8) don't want to have any reason not to reach the goal on mapping day s:D :D s:D
id consider teh maf a consumeable at this point and replace it
Good point Mark.
Side question: can the PFC be configured to map to a pressure rather than airflow voltage? If so, thats £100 you can justify putting towards one Steve s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
If you do go for a new MAF, go Gen Denso. Don't be tempted by EBay offerings They stink.
Quote from: "spit"Good point Mark.
Side question: can the PFC be configured to map to a pressure rather than airflow voltage?
Not on our PFC, no (there are two types, one for cars with MAP and one for cars with MAF - but they are only ever offered in 'original configuration' versions.. i.e. if your car came with a MAP, you get a MAP PFC, if it came with a MAF, you get a MAF PFC)
MAP is nice but it's not the be all & end all of mapping, IMHO - MAF basically combines MAP & IAT functions into one sensor, that's all.. it's a little easier to tune for varying boost levels with a MAP, but unless you want to have infinitely variable boost it's still relatively straightforward to tune for a couple of preset levels.
Then again it's also fairly straightforward to tune the eManage so it doesn't fight with the stock ECU - you just have to make sure the fuel trims end up as close to 0 as possible during closed-loop operation; i.e. that your injector corrections and so on are spot on, otherwise yes, corrections learned during closed loop will be applied to open-loop (i.e. WOT) when you don't want them to be. Basically, if the stock ECU was shooting for 14.7:1, your adjusted eManage map during closed-loop better also be hitting 14.7:1 (or whatever the stock ECU was shooting for - usually about 14.7:1, oddly enough)
Speaking of the MAF , i mentioned to Nic the other day that the Hass pipe where the MAF fits into is not a good seal on the MAF o-ring,the hole in the pipe is far too large to seal against it. I'm going to make a gasket to seal it as it will be allowing a boost leak as it stands.
they were all pretty sshit shit sshit tbh
I ended up dispensing with teh o ring and using rtv
I was planning on getting some gasket paper or thin rubber and cutting a gasket out of that s:) :) s:) but rtv would do the same job too.
This evening i have done an ecu reset by disconnecting the negative terminal on the battery for 3hours, what a difference s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: no more misfire at low revs and the car seems much more eager, much happier now as this means whatever the issue was it's not mechanical just a mapping issue s:D :D s:D
Just a small update,the car is still running much better s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: I have also fabricated a brace out of aluminium for the turbo which bolts to the block with two bolts and to the turbo on the compressor housing, time will tell if it works but it certainly can't hurt.
I have also wrapped the exhaust to cut down the engine bay temps, Robmason kindly donated some heat wrap so i set about wrapping the system from the turbo right up to the back box
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0384.jpg)
after some initial smoking it has settled down and is so good at keeping the heat within the exhaust that you can touch the exhaust after a run and the strut brace is now only luke warm whereas before it was untouchable. s8) 8) s8)
Tomorrow morning i will be removing my fuel rail to get at the injectors, i will be taking them to have them cleaned on the ASNU machine and should have them back on Tuesday all clean and flow matched s:D :D s:D
The exhaust wrap is something i keep putting off, is it worth breaking my back for?
Worth it turbo, not if na
This morning i collected the injectors from Simon Green service centre where i have had them cleaned on the ASNU machine, one of them was a little sticky and showed poor spray pattern and the others were just down on flow due to use and age but all that is fixed now s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: all four injectors are flowing within a couple of ml of each other and are making the quoted flow on the flow test with good even spray pattern so all is good, they are now refitted and working 100% so bring on Friday for the mapping s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Fingers crossed Steve. What time are you booked in on Friday?
Cheers Ste, we will aim to get there around 10am but as there are three of us there isn't a fixed time for each session.
Well it's been some time since i updated this thread, the car made 235hp on the dyno, quite a bit down on what i was expecting or hoping for s:? :? s:? It also decided to drop about a litre of oil out of the return line to the sump on the dyno s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Since then i have replaced the return hose with a lined braided hose and it has been fine ever since completing a drive to Le-mans and runs up the strip at santa pod where the car managed 13.5 @ 100mph.
I have also recently purchased an apexi power fc as i was never happy with the emanage compromise, and also a set of MWR 630cc injectors to help me achieve the power level i want. I have also purchased an innovate wideband gauge to monitor AFR's .
Hopefully ditching the emanage should allow me to get a nice stable tune for the car, i have a few little jobs to do on the car and then i'll get it mapped again s:) :) s:)
Nice one Steve, I look forward to seeing how the PFC does compared to the emanage s:) :) s:)
I'm saving for a PFC and a few other bits and pieces to hopefully get done after the summer
Recently i have been having problems with the Hass log manifold cracking again so i decided enough was enough,and got hold of one of the cast che manifolds from Carben fibre creations. The manifold looks a good piece of kit with strong thick flanges and it is designed for flow whereas the Hass manifold literally just pressurises the intake. At the same time as fitting the manifold i decided on a rework of the turbo system,this has always passed a small amount of oil through the compressor housing and i thought it was just worn,but this was found to be down to no restrictor in the feed line s:roll: :roll: s:roll: A .035" restrictor was ordered and fitted and i can report no oil passing the turbo now s:D :D s:D The che manifold places the turbo further over to the left of the car so i will need to have a new exhaust made up and have ordered a 3" V-band flange for the turbo to make fitting of a new system easy s:) :) s:)
The moving of the turbo also requires the chargecooler moving so a good time for improvement,the cooler was sat on the rear beam and this was ok but i thought if i could move the cooler up next to the battery it would firstly be cooler and second it would shorten the inlet path s:) :) s:) some new red silicone hoses were ordered and the Hass intake pipe was chopped and robbed of its MAF adapter,the new intake run is as short as possible and hopefully will be away from the exhaust heat, this also has the benefit of moving the chargecooler water pipes to the rear of the engine tidying up the install greatly.
I was also never happy with the location of the Hass turbo intake, it was sat on the rear beam where all the dirt could get at it and the filter was always getting caked in oil, with the new setup i decided to make a proper cold air intake and fitted a new cone filter under the passenger side rear lamp modifying the stock cold air pipe in the inner wing to direct cold air directly at the filter,i then added some flexy neoprene hose and fixed it to the inner wing and along the rear beam to the turbo,forcing the turbo to only breathe cold air from the wheel arch cavity.
Here are some pics of progress so far,Nik took some shots of the manifold for reference regarding clearance etc which i'm sure he will post too.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0451.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0452.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0454.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0455.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0456.jpg)
Still waiting on the V-band flange to arrive from the States and then it's off to have a new exhaust system fabricated s:D :D s:D
Well the flange eventually showed up s:) :) s:) and i've finally managed to get the exhaust done thanks to Tony Banks exhausts in Leeds, they have built me a cracker of a system similar to the che or janspeed design but using 3" pipe throughout :th:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0475.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0471.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0474.jpg)
The sound is lovely and deep with pops and bangs on the overrun s:) :) s:)
I also took the opportunity whilst i had the car apart to fit some gauges,inspired by Ste's triple gauge setup i set about doing this
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/yingmcding/IMAG0469.jpg)
They are the Depo racing gauges with peak and warning functions,they also illuminate seven colours s:lol: :lol: s:lol: but i just have them white for day and red at night s:) :) s:)
On Nic's recommendation i went for boost,oil temp and EGT ,the sensor for the EGT is tapped into the collector of the Che manifold just above the turbo flange.
I have also removed the greddy profec E-01 boost controller in favour of a turbosmart manual one,keeps it simple and does the job s8) 8) s8)
Next job will be to do the single oxygen sensor mod and fit the innovate wideband i bought a while back.
Boost, oil temp and EGT are the same gauges I chose too! Great minds eh s;) ;) s;)
Tailpipes look great! s8) 8) s8)
Thanks guys s8) 8) s8) Nic guided me in my choice of gauges, was a toss up between EGT and oil pressure.
Very nicely done Steve. Looks great.
Hope you can find an excuse to head west, I'd like to see it in 3D s8) 8) s8)
Well I'm free permanently now lol so I can bob over whenever, think we are all coming to help you with the garage this weekend bud s:) :) s:)
When you heading back to the mapper mate?
Steve, I was going to ask if it now spools quicker with the better flowing manifold and shorter after turbo pipework?
Well it certainly felt like it did s:) :) s:) notice i said did,after a few boosts the bloody oil seals have gone in the GT28r s:oops: :oops: s:oops: it was as a consequence of the car being run so long without a restrictor,it always passed a little oil but has finally given up.Typical as i had only just fit a restrictor s:evil: :evil: s:evil: So that being said i am now looking for another turbo,this time i think i will go with a T28 so it can be serviced,slightly slower spool but overall power should be the same.
hey..
just got same manifold, not arrived yet, I was wondering where you put the two o2 sensors from the hass manifold in the new setup? (also why are there two? i am new to this car, only had one in the past in the downpipe after turbo)
Best option for the O2 sensors on a turbo setup like this is to have a bung fitted in the exhaust downstream of the turbo.
Then common the signal wires of the o2 sensors with a resistor on the heater circuit of the one you remove and fit the remaining sensor in the bung downstream of the turbo.
That's what the majority I've seen have done.
interesting, so why are there two sensors? i can understand pre/post cat, and i can understand haveing a sensor per cylinder, but dont quite get why there are two??
would it not be better to just put both of them in bungs on the downpipe? or does the ecu not use one of them really?? I like to understand stuff not just do it s:) :) s:)
There are 2 sensors because of the 4-2-1 design on the original manifold and Toyota decided to fit one sensor to each of the 2 banks prior to the pre-cats.
I have the 2 o2 sensor wires combined as Nic has suggested with 1 sensor installed post turbo and the other sensor hole has an AFR sensor installed or a bung.
Sounds lithe Ecu probably averages the two then. Seeing as It's not used WOT then i guess as long as it idle/drives 14.7afr then should be fine s:) :) s:)
The N/A manifolds pair up the cylinders into two banks, so there is a sensor inserted to monitor each pair of cylinders and then adjusts the fuel trims to best suit the conditions. Obviously with a turbo you are common-ing all cylinders into one pipe in effect, so you should really use only one sensor. It has been found that if you have both O2 sensors in the same pipe, due to their difference in distance from the cylinders and the gas flows in the pipe the O2's end up imbalanced. This affects the fuelling to the banks to an extend where one bank can be running over rich and the other over lean ... you get the picture. Short answer it's not a good idea because it will damage the engine.
The original Hass, and TTE, manifolds got over this by putting the O2 sensors in the manifold to mimic the NA setup, it's not ideal but it is workable.
The third O2 sensor sits after the catalyst to check the cat is working and does nothing more than that.
Quote from: "stupink"Sounds lithe Ecu probably averages the two then. Seeing as It's not used WOT then i guess as long as it idle/drives 14.7afr then should be fine s:) :) s:)
The ECU has a fuel trim for bank 1 and bank 2 (pairs of cylinders), it doesn't average the readings.
okies,, manifold turned up today.. looks nice.. i can't say for the money, because it would be nice even at double the money.. anyhow
so cut off one sensor, put in draw as spare... put signal wire from cut off sensor connector to signal wire on remaining sensor.. then put a resistor from dangling heater wire, do you put it to the wired earth dangling, or chassis? not sure if the sensor grounds through the exhaust for heater or the earth wire?? what resistance do people use? i presume this is to stop the ecu damaging itself with no load creating high voltage... so i could measure the heater wire on the sensor and fit equal resistance?
learning slowly, but getting there s:P :P s:P
I like this thread! have been wanting to know about charge coolers...
the fluid is it just antifreeze and distilled water? Or is it a special fluid? How much has the pwc and other bits cost in total? any chance of a shopping list with ball park figures?
Nice work guys!!!
As no one else has replied, PWR are quite expensive but seem to supply good off the shelf kits.. (to be fair chargecooler as a whole are just quite expensive!!)
yes its just water with antifreeze/coolant...
intercoolers Air-Air use a aluminium blob to absorb the heat from air coming out the turbo, the blob is then cooled by sticking it in airflow. it can then absorb more heat from the turbo.
Charge coolers Water-air use exactly the same blob of ally to take the heat from the turbo, but are positioned usually in the engine bay keeping pipework to a minimum, they can also be smaller so in total keep the restriction minimum, this is their benifit.
however no air flow to keep cool!!! so you put the blob of ally in a load of water which then absorbs the heat.. to stop the water heating up too much you just pump it round and round a normal radiator mounted in airflow..
its quite common therefore people just buy the chargecooler itself, and then use some normal hose, and a motorbike radiator or something from a scrapyard as the up front radiator, much cheaper but just as effective as a whole kit.
where abotus in devon are you? im plympton myself s:) :) s:) just picked up my mk3 as well, so new to this also s:) :) s:)
Must say we have quite simular cars s:) :) s:) apart from yours has nicer alloys, nicer roof, better turbo cooling and prob a load of other parts lol.
Really like the look of yours with the lip extensions on (its something I want to do to mine and have them blended in like the TRD versions) Charge cooler is also something il be looking into but I think i might try and fit a small ally rad in the back with a slimline fan and electronic water pump (all well and good having ideas but getting the money together is another story...)
Sent you a PM too s:) :) s:)