I keep thinking about fitting a turbo kit to my car. Then thinking I won't, then thinking I will... so undecided s:-( :-( s:-(
I've looked through the forum and found lots of stuff, and it seems that I'm likely to be looking at £5k to get one fitted?
My car is probably not worth that!
I'm not after a total missile, but would love a little more "oomph".
The latest post the the new Black Label kit (http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?45819-100-110HP-80-Ft-Lbs-9-PSI-Introducing-the-NEW-Black-Label-Fab-Turbo-Kit) looks promising.. what do people think? If I were to get that kit, would having it fitted and tuned take me back up towards the £5k mark?
I guess i just want some advice Could someone point me towards some options and offer some advice please?
there is a new turbo kit that has just been developed, might be worth checking out think after tax your looking at about £1800, think it has everything needed.
m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... bokits.com (http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?45819-100-110HP-80-Ft-Lbs-9-PSI-Introducing-the-NEW-Black-Label-Fab-Turbo-Kit&highlight=turbokits.com) m
m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-LTWtkmvqo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-LTWtkmvqo) m
it has pretty much everything you need.
big thread on it
m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... bokits.com (http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?45819-100-110HP-80-Ft-Lbs-9-PSI-Introducing-the-NEW-Black-Label-Fab-Turbo-Kit&highlight=turbokits.com) m
Quote from: "Ilogik"might be worth checking out think after tax your looking at about £1800, think it has everything needed.
£1800?????
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Ilogik"might be worth checking out think after tax your looking at about £1800, think it has everything needed.
£1800?????
Looks more than that, to me, too..
3195 U.S. dollars = 1 982.13289 British pounds
That's at an optimistic exchange rate, plus there'll be delivery, VAT and duty on top of that.. so probably more like £3k landed.
Quote from: "aaronjb"so probably more like £3k landed.
thats getting close to an sp kit which i would recommend any day.. I absolutely love mine s:D :D s:D plus you have support here in the uk if needed..
if you dont think you can justify the value of the car vs a turbo kit,then why not either look for a ready turbo'd one and sell yours or why not look into a 2zz conversion instead? extra 50bhp or so and it remains n/a so its good usable power with no lag at all, actually coming to think of it, I have no idea why toyota didnt use the 2zz from day one, much better.
First off I say drive a turbo, v6, 2zz if you get the chance, see which one you like the best. I have had a tuned n/a, turbo and now a 2ZZ. I didn't like the turbo too much, much prefer the revvy 2zz, but it lacks the straight line balls out power that would show up quite a lot of cars. Problem with my turbo owner ship was I was constantly monitoring engine temp, knock levels and it ended up doing my head in s:lol: :lol: s:lol: .
Also question yourself, do you aspire to own any other cars out there? weight up the costs an benefits of another model, practicality, insurance, tax, Fuel, extra cost of buying the new car, parts to fix, servicing. Main reason I have stuck to the MR2 is because it offers a little of everything without busting the bank too much, parts are easy to source and owners clubs are great.
Little video vs a subaru s:) :) s:) highlight of my tubby ownership s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkwnOeHiWMg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkwnOeHiWMg) m
Factor in a new clutch/cost of fitting/fluids when you plan to go turbo, also put aside about 1k extra for unknowns s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Weight? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "brad82"so probably more like £3k landed.
Without fitting.
Quote from: "dj2k21"if you dont think you can justify the value of the car vs a turbo kit,then why not either look for a ready turbo'd one and sell yours or why not look into a 2zz conversion instead? extra 50bhp or so and it remains n/a so its good usable power with no lag at all, actually coming to think of it, I have no idea why toyota didnt use the 2zz from day one, much better.
And will be more expensive than a turbo
Quote from: "brad82"Quote from: "aaronjb"so probably more like £3k landed.
thats getting close to an sp kit which i would recommend any day.. I absolutely love mine s:D :D s:D plus you have support here in the uk if needed..
+1 for the SP kit
Professional kit, professionally fitted and great fun to drive.
Still love mine after 15 months.
Another vote for the SP kit, now supplied and fitted by Mattperformance.
The Turbokits item looks shiny and nice though. The possible downsides are noise, with that exhaust system it aint going to be subtle and water/methanol sourcing and associated insurance implications.
Landed, duty paid and handling fees will stand you approximately £3000.
At 9psi, the stock clutch wont stand a chance.
You still need it mapped.
Labour for fitting is going to be a couple of days with clutch change factored in.
Realistically, you are looking at £5000+, which is more than Matt would be asking for the high output kit and a new clutch all fitted I believe.
Ideally, you will want some other modifications with the conversion. At those sort of power levels, the nature of the car is fundamentally different, SP do a chassis brace which would be very advisable, with other bracing a good idea too. You will need good rubber. Although the car is probably not worth £5000, the addition of a decent turbo kit and associated mods puts you into a car that has few rivals at the overall price. What else can you have for that money that gives your the same mix of performance, handling, running costs and usability?
Chris
Shameless pimp:
My Turbo for sale (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33073&p=400537#p400537)
What's the throttle response and power delivery like after being turbo'd? Any noticeable lag?
If its anything like my tte kit, not much lag at all.
Hmmm shame i haven't got a spare few grand lying around then s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Ideally, you will want some other modifications with the conversion. At those sort of power levels, the nature of the car is fundamentally different, SP do a chassis brace which would be very advisable, with other bracing a good idea too. You will need good rubber. Although the car is probably not worth £5000, the addition of a decent turbo kit and associated mods puts you into a car that has few rivals at the overall price. What else can you have for that money that gives your the same mix of performance, handling, running costs and usability? Chris
Too true! I have to say speaking from experience that the outlay for the turbo kit and fitting is only half the story, its the rest of the mods needed to make a proper job of it that really count. Going turbo on a 2 is a journey, when you finally arrive you'll know why you started..... (so did the person in an R8 spyder who decided to rest their daytime 'fairy' lights on my back bumper on the motorway a week ago, a short back and sides courtesy of the hairdressers car).
No 1 mod since FI. Brakes! Nothing better than knowing you have stoppers to match the going. The stock brakes aren't bad, but double the car's output and stopping, or the need to, lives in exactly the same dimension as accelerating. Only since my brake upgrade have I realised how much I was chancing it before.
ChrisGB... That has put it into serious perspective.
Thank you.
Matt's option sounds excellent.
He's already pm'd me with some sound advice. I'll give him a call.
Quote from: "AC"Going turbo on a 2 is a journey, when you finally arrive you'll know why you started..... (so did the person in an R8 spyder who decided to rest their daytime 'fairy' lights on my back bumper on the motorway a week ago, a short back and sides courtesy of the hairdressers car).
I wish I'd seen that s:-D :-D s:-D
Quote from: "ChrisGB"At 9psi, the stock clutch wont stand a chance.
I'm running 8/9psi amd my stock clutch is still going after 21 months, I'm not sure how though!
Blimey that is remarkable. My stock clutch was slipping the moment I drove out of Noble following first mapping ~ 230 brake. Could your car already have an uprated clutch in from before you went turbo? Or do you drive very gently?
When Charlesworth fitted the LUK clutch I checked out the old one and it was perfect, 50% worn and that was a couple weeks of provoked slipping (and 37k on clock). Quite simply the clamping force of the stock clutch just couldn't take the 200 lb ft that it first made.
Quote from: "85db"What's the throttle response and power delivery like after being turbo'd? Any noticeable lag?
I have to be honest and declare that turbocharging is my least favourite way of getting power out of an engine and I came to it as a last resort having looked down every other avenue. However, with the T25 turbo, the lag is minimal at low revs and once above 3500rpm, almost non existent. What you do get is an elasticity to the throttle response that does take away some of the precision. Maybe it is because the system is good, or maybe because I have driven turbodiesels a lot, but I found I adapted quickly to this without any hassle. The throttle response is very consistent even if it is elastic. Obviously, staying N/A avoids this, but you will be doing an awful lot of N/A work to get to the power levels that 9 - 10psi of boost will give you and you will spend a lot more money to do it.
The T28 option may be a liability here. First it is a bigger turbo so inherently more lag, secondly, it is a journal bearing turbo, so not as fast to spool up as a GT28 variant. On the plus side, the T28 will shift more air at high rpm making for a bigger maximum output should you want it.
Pace per pound, the turbo is cheapest if you want to go quick. N/A mods to the value of a turbo kit are not going to see you going much quicker than stock, you run into the diminishing returns wall at relatively low power with the 1zz and a 2zz done properly will cost more than going turbo anyway. Run a basic SP style kit from Matt with stock injectors and mechanical boost control (6psi I believe) and you will see circa 200bhp. This keeps lag minimal, you can keep your original clutch and you can have it supplied and fitted for £3600 which is a bargain. The performance will be noticeably faster than a tuned N/A car but the essential character of the MR2 is retained. Go with the high output kit circa 235bhp, bigger injectors, electronic boost control (9-10psi) you get a lot more torque and a very different car. The option to steer from the rear is easily accessible and with the T25, very controllable. The throttle becomes a much bigger factor in the way the car is balanced and steered, which is exactly what I was after.
I must say that I have found the stock brakes up to the job of slowing down with the high output kit on road, but the car has not been tracked yet.
Chris
^^This is great info, thanks.. After fitting a trd short shifter the other day i'm starting to get the bug for modifying it, i think suspension and some lighter wheels will be next, but after that i may have to start looking at increasing the power. It's a great car but would be so much better with a few more horses s:-D :-D s:-D , as i'm sure you know.
Are there any companies who would fit a supercharger kit rather than a turbo? This would surely take out much of that elasticity you talk about.
The one thing a turbo cannot deliver on though, well for me anyway, is noise. I've not heard a decent sounding 1zz turbo yet. I'm not that fussed about the plumbing noises of air escaping with a whoosh or having demented chipmunks in the engine bay with compressor noises. Noise is only suitably addressed by being NA, so if that is a big factor for anyone, it needs thinking about. Ultimate noise, well that's a no brainer V6 every time.
However the turbo is superb at delivering lots of shove and that will make you smile for sure. The onset of boost up a steep hill is pretty good stuff, as the 2 just seems to ignore gravity.
Ah, some people will be thinking, you have a V6, so you're biased. Nope, I have a turbo these days and have to say that a lot hinges on a good install. No turbo is completely fit and forget, but a good install will ensure you can focus on the driving fun most of the time and that really is the point. The 2 in all its forms is fun, a good turbo is a lot of fun. s:D :D s:D
I have only driven one supercharged car and I liked that a lot. If the Rotrex kits were cheaper, a lot more people would have them. It does seem pretty linear in power delivery from my brief drive. Overall, I would prefer it, but very rare and the kit itself is possibly more expensive than a turbo. Some of the guys in the US were developing kits, but don't think anything is available like that at the moment.
I'll have you know my 1ZZ journal-bearing turbo sounds lovely, Nige s:P :P s:P s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Though I'd prefer it with an extra four cylinders s;) ;) s;)
Just dropped off my car at Mattperformance to have the turbo, chargecooler, Helix clutch and all ancillaries fitted, methinks the next few weeks will pass very slowly until I get it back!!!
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That is a FAST kit. I spent two track days trying to catch a car with that kit on and failing in a turbo charged Elise. You'll love it!
Thanks Jason. I hope so :-) :-) :-) I think my M3 may be redundant now!!!
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Indeed. You'll be looking at around 4.5s 0..60 with that kit on, assuming you have the rubber on the rear to get the power down. I assume you're going to be getting it custom mapped?
Yes, it's going down to Redline for mapping but Matt couldn't get a booking until the week after next, I need more rubber down and looking at the SP12 wheels that Matt used to source.
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Quote from: "Mike_V"Just dropped off my car at Mattperformance to have the turbo, chargecooler, Helix clutch and all ancillaries fitted, methinks the next few weeks will pass very slowly until I get it back!!!
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Nice one Mike, bet you are well excited!! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Matt fitted my Hass kit for me, and I haven't looked back, but I can't stop upgrading that now and have a chargecooler kit ready to be fitted s:D :D s:D
On the wheels front - I have the Pro Race 1.2's, which I believe are identical to Matt's SP12, so could give you another option?
Cheers,
Paul
Hi Paully! Excited isn't the word and your tip about the wheels is much appreciated :-) :-) :-)
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Aww this topic upsets me.
I badly want a turbo on mine, but realistically living on my own im never going to be able to summon the funds for it.
I'm going to college in September hopefully and then on to a 3 year degree, hoping to get a job out of it that lands me above the national average wage for once in my life.
And ive decided im going to keep the '2 until after uni, even if i have to SORN it because i cant afford the insurance (Or lend it to my mothers husband who fancies it for a weekend car) and when i come out of the other end, its getting a turbo. High output.
And if the local car park crowd are right, and its possible to fit some - Possibly some NO2 to go with it.
This car has gotten under my skin in a big way, even despite all the problems mine has had from its hard life before i got it, and i WILL turn it into an animal s:D :D s:D
I take that back. Dont think i want to turn this thing into a monster, it just nearly killed me and my passenger.
Really sorry to hear that. I hope you are both okay.
Cheers LS. Yeah we're ok, just a bit shaken. Him probably a bit more than me, my mate's cousin, only 15.
Monsoon conditions and the back just snapped out. Full tank of fuel probably didnt help. Oversteer, opposite lock, over-correction, opposite lock again, over-correction, slam. Kerb.
In a way ive been extremely lucky, the cars behind me must have seen what was about to happen and backed off, and nothing was coming in the opposite lane. Fishtailed back and forth across all 3 lanes on a major A road coming out of the city. If anything had been coming down the hill there would have been nothing i could have done.
No body damage but the rear drivers side wheel has taken a hell of a pounding. We're not sure as to the extent of the damage yet, gonna get it dismantled tomorrow and have a look.
Scary stuff. When the wheels take a bash like that, suspension and control arms can be bent , sometimes quite subtly. Get whoever checks the car out to measure and double check those bits and also the diagonal measurements on the chassis rails. Depends on the force of impact of course, but glad the 2 kept you in one piece.
Quote from: "calaerial"Have to say that i have today felt the benefit of failing to fix fixing tyre mis-matches.
My car had a fairly significant pull to the left since i got it, feared it might be chassis bend since it was a cat D write off in 2003 (Non-recorded for some reason, but admitted by the seller). It was running 185/55/15s all round, with 3 different tread patterns (NSF - Goodyear Eagle NCT, OSF - Pirelli P6000, Both rears - Hankook K105 Ventus Prime)
Today the fronts reached the legal limit, or more accurately they reached the legal limit a few weeks ago, i reached the limit of my nerve and more importantly, pay day.
Put some Lassa Impetus on both fronts, and even with a different pattern front to back, and an incorrect stagger the car handles 100% better now, its cured that nasty understeer and completely fixed the pull to the left. Drives straight and true now.
Quote from: "calaerial"I take that back. Dont think i want to turn this thing into a monster, it just nearly killed me and my passenger.
Just modified your earlier statement from an other thread for you s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Chris
cue the naysayers claiming mismatached tyres and stagger aren't a problem
I'm sorry you nearly stacked it, but you knowingly ran the car with a dangerous tyre setup and got bit.
hardly the cars fault
Yes well forgive me for having not had the cash to do all the work it needed at once. Sadly i havent had the smoothest run
Yes, i got bitten. And yes the handling was compromised. But the previous owner has very clearly driven it for some time on the same setup, and not had this happen.
Did the compromised handling help? Definately not.
Did it cause the accident? I really doubt it. Dozens of people have fallen off there, and the tyres had handled much worse speeds and cornering forces earlier in the day in similar conditions.
Could have been a diesel spill on that section of road, could have been anything really. And noone is ever going to know if 20mm of extra rubber would have made the difference.
Forgive me also if i'm a little less than cheerfully ribbed by the sniping, but i'm currently weighing up the fact that the rather miniscule real world damage done is actually going to cost a kings ransom to put right because the bits that are FUBAR are apparently dealer parts. So its going to be a gamble of at least a monkey just to find out IF it will line up straight again. And i'm looking very seriously at the prospect of having to scrap her. Dancing on peoples misfortune isnt nice. Even if they were stupid.
no-ones dancing
we are just clarifying that it isn't teh cars fault and making the point for other owners benefit that yet another incident has occured whilst running unsuitable tyres
and I truly think thats a lesson whilst painful for you that is worth being being able to read. (Mods please consider that before running away with the edit button)
with regards to fixing it
worst case your likely to need
new wheel
new subframe
3 suspension arms on that side
all can be got from a breaker but you take your chances with teh condition
first thing to do is get that aligment check and see if it can be brought into spec as is
if the chassis is the same messurement diagnal both ways it can be repaired. now im not going to say tyre stagger but i would try to sort this out as well. also did you say earier it was a cat d. maybe the chassis was damaged before and that caused the spin. either way i hope you can get it fixed.
Sorry Mark, you're right it is useful information for others. I'm not in the best frame of mind right now i guess.
It definately wont be able to be brought into line as is, we've had it dismantled today, wheel off, 3 suspension arms off.
The rear arm is bent at about a 60 degree angle, really bad. the others its more difficult to tell, there are some slight bends, mainly where the brackets are but its difficult to know if these are designed that way without seeing a new one for comparison.
There doesnt APPEAR to be any subframe damage, which is a bonus, no folds or kinks visible.
Did a round of all the major auto suppliers in the North today, all told me the same story "Not getting anything for that part, must be dealer", went to Toyota and they want 130 ish for 2 of them, and 170 for the 3rd. So about £400 for the bars. Plus a hub, plus potentially a new caliper since i sheared a bolt trying to get that off, plus a wheel.
Did a round of the breakers yards up here, only one yard had any MK3s in, of which only one still had its suspension arms, and they were completely shagged.
So at this point we're probably looking at about 5-700 quid on a punt that there hasnt been any subtle subframe shift or other hidden gem waiting for us once we replace all those parts. Its a lot of cash to take a gamble on, especially when she isnt exactly a prime example of the breed. I can definately see myself writing her off to be honest, which is really sad because i cant actually imagine myself in anything else at the moment.
**EDIT** - RB yeah the tyre stagger definately wont have helped, whether it did or didnt cause the accident (Its perfectly possible either way) it at the very least will have made it harder to bring into line once it went. It was always my intention to get the stagger fixed, but the rear tread levels were decent, and the fronts were bald at the beginning of the month, and with the tax due to picked my battles and changed the fronts only. In retrospect it was a severe false economy, but by the same token hindsight is a wonderful thing.
ouch
if the impact was severe enough to bend by 60 degrees i would consider the subframe has moved (even if you can't see it) and treat the other arms on that side as suspect.
I've purchased a subframe with arms from a breaker in the past for £90 the challenge is ensuring that whatever killed the car wasn't a side impact
my biggest concern right now having recently helped a friend with a roadster written off on track from a side impact is that anything bad enough to bend an arm by that much may have moved the front trailing arm mount where it is part of the chassis, rather than the subframe.
if thats moved, then yes your probably looking at a write off, I'm sorry to say
Just to play devil's advocate a little s:D :D s:D , Les's incident last week shows that this can happen with or without the correct tyre stagger to people very familiar or completely unfamiliar with the car. These cars are much less stable in the wet than others, for whatever reason. If the back end is going to lift in the wet, it's going to lift in the wet, regardless of what rubber is on the front. Les would have had his accident the way he had it even if he was running an extra 20mm on the front.
IMHO, from plenty of first hand experience, I put the majority of incidents like this (a loose rear in the wet when driving within the expected limits of the car) down to wheel alignment issues.
But I still run with a stagger with same rubber all round and would always recommend people continue to do the same for when driving the car hard (wet or dry), unless they are familiar with the handling characteristics of the car and are trying to change it to something else deliberately.
We spent that much time wrestling the bolts out from 10 years of rustweld i dont think we really looked at that particular mount in great detail, i'll check again tomorrow (The car isnt at my house) and see if it looks to have shifted. The impact came in such a way that the wheel was forced partially round (round in the way a steered wheel would turn right) at the back, and that is obviously why the rear bar has been the worst bent. Should have taken some pictures i guess. The front and middle looked straightish.
The front arm mount might have been stretched a touch i guess, but it shouldnt have come under any impact or compression. I hope
i agree with mark ouch that is a big hit. check the chassis before anything mate make sure its all square. as mark said about the other car. now i saw that and looking at it everything was fine to look at that is but the car was a wright off.
Quote from: "calaerial"We spent that much time wrestling the bolts out from 10 years of rustweld i dont think we really looked at that particular mount in great detail, i'll check again tomorrow (The car isnt at my house) and see if it looks to have shifted. The impact came in such a way that the wheel was forced partially round (round in the way a steered wheel would turn right) at the back, and that is obviously why the rear bar has been the worst bent. Should have taken some pictures i guess. The front and middle looked straightish.
The front arm mount might have been stretched a touch i guess, but it shouldnt have come under any impact or compression. I hope
you need to measure
visually we couldnt see it had moved
As a novice, where am i measuring it to? Presumably something that is able to be referenced on the other side of the car, and they should match?
A couple of pics that i did grab this morning before we started dismantling:
(http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/calaerial/81c7bba8.jpg)
(http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/calaerial/93a44743.jpg)
(http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/calaerial/f7b98986.jpg)
First, apologies if my earlier post was seen as having a dig, honest, it was meant as a little light hearted ribbing. To the bent bits; the front suspension mount point (trailing arm mount) is tied to the body shell by a small brace at its lower end (it has the handbrake cable bolted on to it) and this should help it resist bending. Have a look and compare it to the other side to see if there are any signs of stretching or bending on mount or surrounding body shell. Hopefully it is OK and just the arms. The trailing arm, lower arm and track arm should all be straight with the U joints on the ends at 90 deg to the bars. Also check the strut leg and the rear hub for damage / cracking. Wheel bearing is going to have taken a hit, possibly drive shaft too, possibly the rose joint in the hub (lower arm joint) however, I have seen one of these on here bent worse than that repaired with just a toe arm.
You can also buy a set of after market adjustable control arms from Che (deluboz parts on Ebay).
Keeping my fingers crossed that it is fixable. Well worth keeping an eye on the for sale section here as cars come up for breaking sometimes. Try part finder on the internet too, you may be able to pick up a corner set relatively cheap.
Quote from: "muffdan"Just to play devil's advocate a little s:D :D s:D , Les's incident last week shows that this can happen with or without the correct tyre stagger to people very familiar or completely unfamiliar with the car. These cars are much less stable in the wet than others, for whatever reason. If the back end is going to lift in the wet, it's going to lift in the wet, regardless of what rubber is on the front. Les would have had his accident the way he had it even if he was running an extra 20mm on the front.
I did note Les had a mixed front / rear set of tyres, which may or may not have been a contributing factor. To be fair, any car can just step out of control unexpectedly, but a mid engined car is not going to have the dart like self stabilising properties of a front engined one. Even on a matched set in the right sizes it can happen (thinking of Stu in the MR2 and Mark in the VXR) both of those from unexpected standing water I believe. Geometry is a big factor in on limit grip too, going turbo (note the steer back to being on topic s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ) I had to put some rear toe in on the car to quell the rear end mid corner liveliness under power.
Hope it is sortable.
Chris
Dont beat yourself up too much, the wet can be deadly. Lots of people have had worrying moments even at stupidly low speeds, it happens.
Phil
Quote from: "philster_d"Dont beat yourself up too much, the wet can be deadly. Lots of people have had worrying moments even at stupidly low speeds, it happens.
Phil
+1. My first MR2 had same make and model tyres, good tread and recent alignment. But add idiot driver, turbo and rain and I still managed to fishtail mine, balls up the recovery then cross a bus lane, then a pedestrian path and end up sideways on a handy grass verge whilst magically missing everything including two trees and thankfully not damaging the car at all.
Are the Sp wheels not just Team Dynamic wheels?
yep team dynamic wheels.
Well. Picked up my car from Matt on Friday but didn't get much opportunity to do much on the way home on the M6 as the traffic was so busy, then went to the N.E on Saturday in my other car as I had to take some things over with me. Arrived home today and took the "2" out to see what she was really like, I tried it on sections of "A" road and dual carriageway on half boost and I must say it's very, very quick and had to ease off at 4000 revs in 3rd gear s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . I can only describe the transformation as awesome with a wonderful cacophany of noises behind you and I will build things up to full boost gradually as I get to know the car, which isn't the same one that I took down to Matt's. The workmanship is superb s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: and I look forward to searching the cars capabilities, Matt said "you will love it" and I do.
Quote from: "Mike_V"Well. Picked up my car from Matt on Friday but didn't get much opportunity to do much on the way home on the M6 as the traffic was so busy, then went to the N.E on Saturday in my other car as I had to take some things over with me. Arrived home today and took the "2" out to see what she was really like, I tried it on sections of "A" road and dual carriageway on half boost and I must say it's very, very quick and had to ease off at 4000 revs in 3rd gear s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . I can only describe the transformation as awesome with a wonderful cacophany of noises behind you and I will build things up to full boost gradually as I get to know the car, which isn't the same one that I took down to Matt's. The workmanship is superb s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: and I look forward to searching the cars capabilities, Matt said "you will love it" and I do.
Nice one Mike s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
Top news, I'm sure you will have lots, and lots, more fun!
Best you update your signature now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Paul
Quote from: "Mike_V"Well. Picked up my car from Matt on Friday but didn't get much opportunity to do much on the way home on the M6 as the traffic was so busy, then went to the N.E on Saturday in my other car as I had to take some things over with me. Arrived home today and took the "2" out to see what she was really like, I tried it on sections of "A" road and dual carriageway on half boost and I must say it's very, very quick and had to ease off at 4000 revs in 3rd gear s:scared: :scared: s:scared: . I can only describe the transformation as awesome with a wonderful cacophany of noises behind you and I will build things up to full boost gradually as I get to know the car, which isn't the same one that I took down to Matt's. The workmanship is superb s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: and I look forward to searching the cars capabilities, Matt said "you will love it" and I do.
Dibs on first test drive when you finally let go of the keys!! s:D :D s:D
Hi Paul. The Dibs yours and I'll pop down to Blackpool soon. :-) :-) :-)
Quote from: "Mike_V"Hi Paul. The Dibs yours and I'll pop down to Blackpool soon. :-) :-) :-)
Aww get in!! But shhh, nobody tell the Mrs...
hahaha
NIce one, is a great kit. What was it mapped at in terms of power/torque? Intrigued to know what you get with the bigger turbo and chargecooler etc....
Above all else, respect it and enjoy it.
Andy.
So all in all, how much has it cost if you dont mind me asking?
Hi. For the kit that I have you won't get much change out of 6 grand, I know that I could have bought another car for this but it's something that i've always wanted to do, I'm happy have no regrets.
Quote from: "andywood"What was it mapped at in terms of power/torque? Intrigued to know what you get with the bigger turbo and chargecooler etc....
???? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Andy
Over 270bhp when it was fitted to Matt's car I believe.
I wonder what Gaspar is up to these days.
Phil
Quoteandywood wrote:What was it mapped at in terms of power/torque? Intrigued to know what you get with the bigger turbo and chargecooler etc....
Hi Andy. It was remapped at Redine but Matt forgot the dynograph so I don't know the full story, I've asked him to get it for me but still waiting.
Cheers.
Mike
What a car that is!!
Mike you are one lucky guy!!!!
Thanks Paul!! I hope you enjoyed your drive in it, it was great to meet you and many thanks for the much needed brew... :-) :-) :-)
Will look forward to hearing what it is kicking out, just can't imagine having a stack load more power/torque than what is in mine, must be mental!! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Are the engine internals and gearbox still stock?
Will be worth every penny that you spent on it, the smile is always there everytime i drive mine.
Andy.
260bhp/ 240ftlb more or less. Just need to get hold of the dyno sheet to confirm exact figures. Stock engine and gearbox are good for 240ftlb although I'd be kidding myself (and Mike) if I said that the life of both is not likely to be shortened by running at these kind of outputs, especially if used on track.
Same as my hass dynoed
Very entertaining
Cheers Matt. I really must compliment you on your workmanship, in my book you are the only option for turbo fitting and tuning.
Mike :-) :-) :-)
MWR 2zz base turbokit. 700CC deutchwerk injector, PFC, J$S safeguard, Methanol/water injection.
310whp@10psi s:D :D s:D on a stock 2zz engine, 295whp@9psi, 280whp@8psi.
Plan in to install Mahle pistons and run 17psi in 2012.
Quote from: "silversprint"MWR 2zz base turbokit. 700CC deutchwerk injector, PFC, J$S safeguard, Methanol/water injection.
310whp@10psi s:D :D s:D on a stock 2zz engine, 295whp@9psi, 280whp@8psi.
Plan in to install Mahle pistons and run 17psi in 2012.
310hp at the wheels at 10psi on a stock engine. Really? I keep seeing these massive output figures from the US (1zz and 2zz) but whenever we try to replicate the performance over here we fall a LONG way short, so forgive me for being so sceptical! I'll have a little wager that you'll be needing to put those pistons in before 2012 if you're run it at a genuine 280whp or more s;) ;) s;)
280whp on a turbo 2zz is common. If a tuner can't make that power with a PowerFc and a turbo 2zz then you need to find a new tuner. That hp number was done in cold weather. I think it probably runs less as the temperature as gotten hotter here in the summer. I'm probably now looking at closer to 260. I think if I can keep the oil temperature and knock under control the engine will survive, at least for a short while.
This spyder is actually more of a track car. I wanted low boost and conservative tune. I was surprised the car actually made that much hp. My goal was to run 8psi and be happy with whatever hp number I got. I can't lower the boost any more with this wastegate because I get boost creep at high RPMs.
Why do people have to say you wont achieve this and that. at the end of the day if thats someones goal leave them be. anything can be achieved its just how much money your going to throw at it. take my engine Redline said i wont see more than 160 it made 174 on the stock settings. i still think i could make a couple more as the map is no good as well as the chip as it just cant handle the bore increase. at the end of the day if the car runs well and coping who cares what it comes out. and as every tuner will tell you every dyno is different on the setup so again how can you compare?
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Why do people have to say you wont achieve this and that. at the end of the day if thats someones goal leave them be. anything can be achieved its just how much money your going to throw at it. take my engine Redline said i wont see more than 160 it made 174 on the stock settings. i still think i could make a couple more as the map is no good as well as the chip as it just cant handle the bore increase. at the end of the day if the car runs well and coping who cares what it comes out. and as every tuner will tell you every dyno is different on the setup so again how can you compare?
I completely agree that as long as someone's car is performing in the way that they want then everyone should be happy for (and including) them, but he is claiming very big numbers which I have every right to dispute s;) ;) s;) (Silversprint's reply does rather suggest that it's not exactly a safe set-up)
And for completeness, regarding your car, maybe Richard was being a tad naive... there are plenty of MR2 Roadster stock motors running close to 170bhp so I'd have thought that was a minimum target for yours given its larger capacity and higher compression. I'm sure there's a fair amount more to come.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "rbuckingham"Why do people have to say you wont achieve this and that. at the end of the day if thats someones goal leave them be. anything can be achieved its just how much money your going to throw at it. take my engine Redline said i wont see more than 160 it made 174 on the stock settings. i still think i could make a couple more as the map is no good as well as the chip as it just cant handle the bore increase. at the end of the day if the car runs well and coping who cares what it comes out. and as every tuner will tell you every dyno is different on the setup so again how can you compare?
I completely agree that as long as someone's car is performing in the way that they want then everyone should be happy for (and including) them, but he is claiming very big numbers which I have every right to dispute s;) ;) s;) (Silversprint's reply does rather suggest that it's not exactly a safe set-up)
And for completeness, regarding your car, maybe Richard was being a tad naive... there are plenty of MR2 Roadster stock motors running close to 170bhp so I'd have thought that was a minimum target for yours given its larger capacity and higher compression. I'm sure there's a fair amount more to come.
Your only mentioning the figures because you want them sort of figures s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Richard was naive at my setup and due to fact hasnt mapped it right. he never really took into account the larger capacity and i did mention it. due to the bad map / ecu not being able to do the job like richard said im going to take the car off the road and get a standalone fitted but by a different tuner. richards map on mine below 2k rpm is pointless, its bogged down dont want to go, hesitates and then theres the idle or lack off. plus he never filled me with convidence on the day as he asked me whats the difference between stage 1 and stage 2 cams. it might of been joking but i get the impression he didnt actually know. so for me it was £600 down the drain
anyway whats the new project turbo 2zz by chance.
or it could be the unichip is just fundamentally not capable of coping with your engine mods as I originally told you
My emanange was offered and almost sold but he decided to go with the Unichip s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "markiii"or it could be the unichip is just fundamentally not capable of coping with your engine mods as I originally told you
very true and most likly the cause for the idle but the unichip should at least be capable to not bog down at the lower rpm if it can handle it at the higher rpm. either way i was sold a solution that dont work, but you learn from experiance. undecided tho on if it should go thor / pro tuner or another place. Thor seems to have mixed reviews but i got time to decide as it will be next year it will get mapped
edit went with the unichip mate as it was not a bad all included price either way the emange would not of coped as it basically the same as the unichip and that aint doing the job.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Your only mentioning the figures because you want them sort of figures s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Richard was naive at my setup and due to fact hasnt mapped it right. he never really took into account the larger capacity and i did mention it. due to the bad map / ecu not being able to do the job like richard said I'm going to take the car off the road and get a standalone fitted but by a different tuner. richards map on mine below 2k rpm is pointless, its bogged down dont want to go, hesitates and then theres the idle or lack off. plus he never filled me with convidence on the day as he asked me whats the difference between stage 1 and stage 2 cams. it might of been joking but i get the impression he didnt actually know. so for me it was £600 down the drain
anyway whats the new project turbo 2zz by chance.
They're very desireable numbers, that's for sure. But I'll be sticking with the 1zz motor. Still not sure how the new project will pan out as it seems to change in my head like the weather!
To be fair to Richard (Redline) he can't be expected to know what very mod available for a 1zz motor is. He doesn't specialise in MR2s (ask him about Ford tuning however and he's like an encyclopedia) but he has mapped quite a number with Unichips and with an excellent level of success. I don't see why the Unichip can't handle what your car has on/in it right now but maybe an injector overdrive module is needed, but that's a gamble and you could be spending good money after bad. You were of course warned about the risk of opting for a piggyback rather than a standalone (and all of the pitfalls of developing your own custom set-up) s;) ;) s;)
It will all come good in the end. A former business associate once told me: you don't lose money, you buy experience. Might be a nice way to reconcile it in your mind s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "MattPerformance"you don't lose money, you buy experience.
Excellent!
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "rbuckingham"Your only mentioning the figures because you want them sort of figures s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Richard was naive at my setup and due to fact hasnt mapped it right. he never really took into account the larger capacity and i did mention it. due to the bad map / ecu not being able to do the job like richard said I'm going to take the car off the road and get a standalone fitted but by a different tuner. richards map on mine below 2k rpm is pointless, its bogged down dont want to go, hesitates and then theres the idle or lack off. plus he never filled me with convidence on the day as he asked me whats the difference between stage 1 and stage 2 cams. it might of been joking but i get the impression he didnt actually know. so for me it was £600 down the drain
anyway whats the new project turbo 2zz by chance.
They're very desireable numbers, that's for sure. But I'll be sticking with the 1zz motor. Still not sure how the new project will pan out as it seems to change in my head like the weather!
To be fair to Richard (Redline) he can't be expected to know what very mod available for a 1zz motor is. He doesn't specialise in MR2s (ask him about Ford tuning however and he's like an encyclopedia) but he has mapped quite a number with Unichips and with an excellent level of success. I don't see why the Unichip can't handle what your car has on/in it right now but maybe an injector overdrive module is needed, but that's a gamble and you could be spending good money after bad. You were of course warned about the risk of opting for a piggyback rather than a standalone (and all of the pitfalls of developing your own custom set-up) s;) ;) s;)
It will all come good in the end. A former business associate once told me: you don't lose money, you buy experience. Might be a nice way to reconcile it in your mind s:) :) s:)
yes he is one for fords that was noticed as everything is ford there s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
and it is a good way of thinking about makes you feel better and you havnt wasted money.
as for the chip its real problem is the lack of idle control and the stock just isnt able to run the idle with the larger capacity. i was warned about going piggyback against standalone but even you your self said it should be ok. but as there is a lack of people with bigger displacements about nobody really could tell that it wasnt going to run, hence why a standalone was mentioned as it would be able to cope regardless. But on the bright side taking it off the road allows me to strip the car down and start making the charger mounts so it can be fitted for the next ecu and map and we can all find out actually how far you can push a supercharged 1ZZ s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
For what it's worth, I ran an overbored engine with stage 2 crower cams on a unichip with no idling problems.
Quote from: "muffdan"For what it's worth, I ran an overbored engine with stage 2 crower cams on a unichip with no idling problems.
What happened to that engine in the end?
Quote from: "muffdan"For what it's worth, I ran an overbored engine with stage 2 crower cams on a unichip with no idling problems.
must be teh only problem you haven't had :-) :-) :-)
every setup differs. mine just wants to be a money drain and wants an expensive ecu. if women were engines my engine would be female as it always wants me to spend money on it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Just a thought, but would you not expect stage 2 N/A cams to give lumpy idle and less than ideal running in the bottom third of the rev range? You have increased lift, duration, rate and overlap so you lose at the bottom to gain at the top.
Stage 2 F/I cams should be better in this respect as they won't have big overlap.
Chris
Quote from: "rbuckingham"every setup differs. mine just wants to be a money drain and wants an expensive ecu. if women were engines my engine would be female as it always wants me to spend money on it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
If it wasn't the engine it would be something else ... I like Matt's quote s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
the cams could be an issue but if i actually got the right ecu in the first place to get mapped it wouldnt cause a problem. the problem with the unichip is the lack of things you can do with it. like mark has said unichip is great for little mods and what most people on here have done ie filter and exhaust. but for people that have gone a bit to far possibly with larger capacity for instances its harder to map out the problems and you havnt really got the control, standalone you do and frankly is what i should of done but hey i brought some expeirence s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Quote from: "muffdan"For what it's worth, I ran an overbored engine with stage 2 crower cams on a unichip with no idling problems.
What happened to that engine in the end?
That was my first built engine. It melted a piston after a couple of hundred miles. The map wasn't safe!
I can see that a piggyback solution is not making best use of a stage 2 setup, particularly as it limits you to the stock rev limit, but lumpy idling from aggressive cams is not something you can map out. The lumpy idling and slow low end are a result of the cams changing the l low running speed airflow through the engine, conventional mapping only regulates mixture and ignition timing. You may be able to improve it with vvti tuning but it is a long shot. In respect of idle and low speed running, a standalone may not make any difference.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"I can see that a piggyback solution is not making best use of a stage 2 setup, particularly as it limits you to the stock rev limit, but lumpy idling from aggressive cams is not something you can map out. The lumpy idling and slow low end are a result of the cams changing the l low running speed airflow through the engine, conventional mapping only regulates mixture and ignition timing. You may be able to improve it with vvti tuning but it is a long shot. In respect of idle and low speed running, a standalone may not make any difference.
Chris
oh standalone will make a difference just by being able to raise the idle postion so it revs more. do you think the cams will be even more of a problem with the charger
Faster idle will help. I would have thought that the F/I cams would be better with boost.
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Faster idle will help. I would have thought that the F/I cams would be better with boost.
Chris
So would lower compression pistons! Rich, I'm not sure how well your engine is going to take boost with such a high compression ratio. I should think detonation is going to be a problem.
same ratio as a 2zz 11.5:1 agreed this is a high ratio but the charger is going to give a max of 9 psi so i dont think that will be a problem. but im planning on putting a recirc BOV in and adjust it so when the pressure hits a certain point the bov will recirc the pressure back to the start. all of this to be done before the maf. but i might have that removed as i will probably go to a link and they can run an air temp. so what thor said anyway.
I do recomend the Link G4. They are very good ECU's. You'll want to keep the MAF though even if you are running off a MAP sensor as you'll want the map to take into account inlet charge temperature, which is being read by the MAF.
Another point, I'm still running the Stage 2 (FI) cams on a big bore and I have no idling problems, running on the G4. That said, it has only run properly on the Link since I took it to Redline. Thor had many attempts to get the car idling and running right. I dropped them because they couldn't deliver and certainly didn't give me the level of service I expected as a paying customer. I would give them my car, pre-booked, and it would take them up to two weeks sometimes before they would even put it on the dyno.
Nigel recommends a mapper who is good with the Links. He has a mobile rolling road and comes to you. I forget his name but I'm keen to give him a try next time I need a full map done.
Quote from: "muffdan"I do recomend the Link G4. They are very good ECU's. You'll want to keep the MAF though even if you are running off a MAP sensor as you'll want the map to take into account inlet charge temperature, which is being read by the MAF.
Another point, I'm still running the Stage 2 (FI) cams on a big bore and I have no idling problems, running on the G4. That said, it has only run properly on the Link since I took it to Redline. Thor had many attempts to get the car idling and running right. I dropped them because they couldn't deliver and certainly didn't give me the level of service I expected as a paying customer. I would give them my car, pre-booked, and it would take them up to two weeks sometimes before they would even put it on the dyno.
Nigel recommends a mapper who is good with the Links. He has a mobile rolling road and comes to you. I forget his name but I'm keen to give him a try next time I need a full map done.
so forgetting cams i should be ok when i sort the ecu. you will have to send me the guys number as personally i think i would prefere to see the car to be mapped as that way you can see what they have actually done. as when its behind closed doors you dont actually know what has been done. they might of just put some numbers in and said oh hell that will do as frankly they dont care. but please send me the number he might be getting some work his way s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
A couple of pics from Matt's turbo conversion, could not get a TTE mesh rear grille for the custom exhaust but Mat cut a hole in my pre facelift grille so I spent some time today with a dremel to tidy things up a bit as Matt had kindly left me a stainless steel surround for the exit pipe, thanks Matt. s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae323/Mike_V/IMG_0924.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae323/Mike_V/IMG_0931.jpg)
Quote from: "Mike_V"(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae323/Mike_V/IMG_0931.jpg)
I really like that Mike! Great job! Must invest in a dremel myself sometime!!
As for the install - Matt you should be very proud of your work! Looks great, almost stock, and very fine attention to detail!
Thanks Paul. Next time you can take it through the rev range, it really is awesome and sounds incredible, today is the first time i've give it some and it's an experience.
It looks good but I wounder if that exhaust may not go down well with mr plod or the MOT people, looks a bit high up? I am not aware of any law for this but at the same time you never see a car with a high exhaust either?
QuoteIt looks good but I wounder if that exhaust may not go down well with mr plod or the MOT people, looks a bit high up? I am not aware of any law for this but at the same time you never see a car with a high exhaust either?[/quot
Not much different from the MGF if you think about it, it's not unusual.
Ariel Atom
(http://gallery.carphotos.org/data/946/ariel_atom_3_rear.jpg)
Older Elise and Zonda have exits at that height or higher too. I love the exit location.
Quote from: "stargazer30"It looks good but I wounder if that exhaust may not go down well with mr plod or the MOT people, looks a bit high up? I am not aware of any law for this but at the same time you never see a car with a high exhaust either?
You see plenty of motorbikes though ... ok not entirely the same thing.
Zonda
Lexus LFA
Elise S1 and early S2
Noble
Can't remember any more
Caparo T1 (although the highest point of the car is probably about 30" high.)
And what about those caterfield type cars that have the whole system running along side the car?
In other words unlikely to be a problem s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s8) 8) s8)
I like the idea ... I persnallot would have preferred the different inserts ... but hey they darned expensive for what they are! s:scared: :scared: s:scared:
I'll have a set of TTE inserts for sale when I eventually get around to fitting the JDL rear bumper I have sitting in the garage.
Stu ( Kanujunkie) had an exhaust outlet at that height some years ago on his C2 turbo'd roadster, though his exited, uniquely, to the nearside. That was one very quick car!
Quote from: "muffdan"I'll have a set of TTE inserts for sale when I eventually get around to fitting the JDL rear bumper I have sitting in the garage.
I'll take them off your hands when they become available.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: "Mike_V"Quote from: "muffdan"I'll have a set of TTE inserts for sale when I eventually get around to fitting the JDL rear bumper I have sitting in the garage.
I'll take them off your hands when they become available.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They are the very ones I was telling you about Mike! s:) :) s:)
Not sure of where to post this but received my dyno chart from Matt, attached :-) :-) :-)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae323/Mike_V/IMG_0204.png)
Nice. You could add it to your garage and also post up in the sticky thread for forced induction performance gains at the top of the performance forum. I'd post a link for you but I'm on my mobile s:) :) s:)