For those of you that dont know, when designing the MR2 Toyota went down the path of making it a Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV). Doing this meant adding a whole load of extra emmisons control equipment to the engine, chief among these being 2 additional catalytic convertors installed in the exhaust manifold. The theory behind it being that when starting from cold, these cats heat up and get working a lot faster therby reducing the emmisions that bit sooner.
The problem with these cats, is that in order to endure the very high temperatures in the manifold, they have to made of a ceramic material. This ceramic might be good with high temperatures, but is incredibly brittle and doesnt like vibration. The particles that do break free are also very-very hard, so if they manage to get into the cylinders they aren't going to be to friendly to the insides of yor engine...
I've been regularly inspecting my own precats for a while now, and they've always been in good condition, However after a recent check revealed that they were starting to deteriorate, I decided it was time they came out beofe they took my engine with them. The first signs of deterioration were noted at around 30,000 miles, 2000 miles after my previous inspection. 200 miles later, the situation had deteriorated even further. These cats go bad very-very quickly...
Heres how I removed the cats...
Note: Clearly, neither I nor MR2-ROC can condone you ripping lumps of emmisions control equipment out of your car. Its safe to say the the warranty on my manifold at least and probably my main cat as well have now been well and truly voided, so the same will go for you. Basically, if you decide to go down this route as I have, you're on your own... On the plus side, if its not in there, it cant break. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Toolkit required
Trolley Jack
Axle Stands
10mm spanner
10mm socket on 6" extesnion
12mm spanner
12mm socket and various extensions
14mm socket
Hammer
Vice
Long flat bladed screwdriver
High pressure water or air supply
Large vocabulary of swear words
In order to remove the precats, you first have to remove the exhaust manifold from the car, Care should be taken to apply penetrating oil to the various nuts and bolts some time before undoing them
1/ Jack up the rear of the car and place on axle stands.
2/ Remove the splash guard from under the rear bumper
3/ Remove 3 bolts from the forward splash guard to let it hang down.
4/ Remove the 3 14mm nuts that secure the main cat pipe to the manifold
In the engine bay;
5/ Using a 22mm O2 sensor socket, remove the 2 O2 sensors from the manifold.
6/ Remove the 4 bolts securing the manifold upper heat shield
7/ Remove the 2 bolts that secure the lower part of the manifold to the engine block. These are 'behind' the manifold and not readily visible. ! of them is 12mm, the other 14mm.
8/ Remove the 5 nuts securing the manifold to the cylinder head.
The manifold can now be lifted out of the top of the engine bay.
Decatting the precats...
Actually getting the precats out is pretty simple, here's what mine looked like from above and below before I started, you can see some of the degradation thats taken place in the first photo:
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat1.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat1.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/dscf0135.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/dscf0135.jpg.html)
And here are the surgeons tools: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat8.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat8.jpg.html)
Removal is simply a case of attacking the precat matrix with hammer and screwdriver until its broken up into lumps small enough to be able to get them out through the lower exhaust port. The ceramic material gives up very easily, it only takes 1 or 2 taps on the screwdriver to do this... s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat5.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat5.jpg.html)
After digging around for a while you will also expose the glass fibre that surrounds and supports the cat matrix, this has to come out too.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat4.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat4.jpg.html)
Once out you'll have a big pile of very useless, but rather expensive catalytic material left over. I beleive some places do recycle this stuff to reclaim the precious metal content, so if your now feeling guilty about your effect on the environment, this could be a way to ease your concience s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat6.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat6.jpg.html)
Once its all out, you'll be left with an empty manifiold like this;
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn295/GSB33/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat7.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/GSB33/media/MR2%20Precats/gsbprecat7.jpg.html)
You now need to clean it, as there is still an awful lot of potentially damaging dust and particles left inside. I would recommend high pressure water like a jet wash or an airline for this, as an chemical residue from solvent cleaners may have a damaging effect on the O2 sensors.
Once clean and dry, re-building is simple the reverse of the process used to take the manifold out in the first place.
Happily, I've not noticed any increase in noise level from removing these. Performance certainly isnt any worse, and in fact the car may have benefitted in the form of slightly increased torque, but I cant say for sure... What is certain though, is that the pre-cats are going to have a hard time damaging my engine from the workshop bin, and I'm a lot happier now that these ticking time bombs are not a problem...MOT tests wont be a problem, as I still have the main cat in place, which is more than capable of doing the work. I dont have a ULEV car anymore, but I do have one that with a bit of luck will last a bit longer.
EDIT: Based on recent discussions with exhaust specialist builder Zero Exhausts, it's worth noting that gutting the pre-cats theoretically reduces low and midrange performance while hampering efficient use of valve overlap in the high end.
The advice at the moment is to remove the stock manifold and replace with an aftermarket cat-less manifold such as the ToyoSport, Hamish's GarageFiftyNine manifold, or Zero Exhausts. This removes the problem and brings a noticeable increase in performance.
Good report s8) 8) s8) s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
One to be ported to the articles section?
Quote from: "Hanslow"One to be ported to the articles section?
Definately! Good work Grant, it will come in handy s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Great article Grant, can we organise a gut the cats party! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: I really want mine out now that my Mr T warranty is up.
Quote from: "Liz"Great article Grant, can we organise a gut the cats party! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: I really want mine out now that my Mr T warranty is up.
A good point, no warranty, no need for time bomb lumps of china in your exhaust.
I will add this to anyone who's going to gut the pre-cats...
Use plenty of penetrating fluid.The removal, gutting, cleaning and re-assembly process only took me an hour and a half. Its pretty simple and all the bolts are in places you can get at them without to much difficulty. However, it took me a further two and a half hours to extract a broken stud from my manifold. No amount of heat, applied torque, or liberal quantities of swear words would make it budge, so I had to drill it out and re-tap it with a slighty larger thread size. Not a nice job to do...
Is it not possible to get the Pre Cats out without gutting them, Toyota managed to get them in there!
... This is a stupid question if there was a way thats how you would done it. So what have Toyota done to stop us getting them out?
They're welded in...
The precat sits inside a cylinder, thats then welded to the primary tubes and O2 socket at the top, and the down pipe flange at the bottom. Once they're in, they're in for good, unless you break them down into smaller pieces.
Jeez....This is something I don't want to even contemplate doing. I think Liz's idea of a party is a good one, I'll provide the jelly and ice-cream s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Excellant thankyou......
Mark
Excellent write up. Do you think your car will show any improvement with the better exhaust flow now:?: Shame you couldn't have dome a pre and post dynos to prove the possible torque and power changes
dont think ill be attempting this one myself! think id rather leave it to someone who knows what they're doing s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Excellent write up. Do you think your car will show any improvement with the better exhaust flow now:?: Shame you couldn't have dome a pre and post dynos to prove the possible torque and power changes
It would be good if someone planning on gutting their (pre)cat could do before and after dyno runs and also emissions tests.
If it still remains within the ULEV figures after gutting then maybe we could ask Toyota if they would consider a voluntary recall so that people can have their (pre)cats gutted and save their engines.
if it still fell within ulev figure without them, I somehoe doubt they woudl have been fitted.
besides the economies fo scale are the only reasons they are in for the european market, and based on that I doubt it woudl be economic to recall them all.
You most likely won't pass the EU standard emission test without the precats. You will pass the sniffer emission test though.
The first test is done by starting a cold (=20C) car and driving at predetermined speeds for some time. The speeds vary between 0-60mph or so and "simulate" a drive to work...first you have speeds like you would around typical residental area, then some highway speeds and finally "heavy traffic in a city". All that comes out of the pipe is measured, from start to stop.
Precats start doing their job the moment you start the engine. Without them you will pollute so much before tha main cat warms up, that you shouldn't have any chances of passing that test.
(also, I don't think UK/EU Toyota could care less about ULEV, as that's only used in US)
I am really not sure about all this to be honest. I have read all these threadsa bout decatting and it still seems a very dangerous thing to me. Yeah, I know there is a risk of them breaking up and getting sucked into the engine (and I am VERY worried by that. I don't fancy paying for a new engine or whathaveyou now that the motor is out of warranty) and causing untold damage, but they are there for a reason. Not only that, surely if you request the dealer to check them on a regular basis (I understand that they can break up over night almost), then hopefully there should be SOME preventative measure in place.
I originally started reading this thread cos I too was worried about the damage broken pre-cats can do and wondered if I should do something about it by decatting myself. Now I have read through and seen the amount of change and the possible legalities and emmissions changes and so on...........I just don't know. If anything, this thread has made me even MORE paranoid that my engine is going to go POP! The way things are worded and sound, it seems like this happening is more "inevitable" than "possible" and I am really quite worried now. I don't want to rev then engine too much cos I think I am going to wreck something, yet I don't want to mollycoddle it either cos its a 2 and should be driven..........
I don't know. Someone PLEASE put my mind at rest and tell me this is either an inevitable occurance and if I leave the cats in place that my engine is GOING to go pop, or someone tell me that I don't have THAT much to worry about and its rare. I jsut don't know anymore...........
Sorry for being a wet blanket, but I am very much a believer in that a manufacturer designs things to the best of their ability (with some notable exceptions, granted) and Toyota DO have a good reputation for reliability, so I like to leave things as standard as they are cos that is how they were built, for a reason. But, this is really really giving me the collywobbbles and I just don't know what to do..........
simple answer,
whatever the reason for them being fitted they don't have to pass that test anymore. Only the MOT.
you can pass teh mot without them.
they are hazardous to your engines health.
there are no legal implication to you in rfemoving them.
personally I'd get shot.
Quote from: "John Woodward"I am really not sure about all this to be honest...
Fair enough, niether am I...
To put things in perspective...
Precat failure is unlikely to happen, but theres no such thing as a 100%reliable component so it will affect some cars. Unlike most cat failures, (which will eventually effect ALL cars, regardless of make or model) It just so happens that due to the design and location of these particular cats, failure
seems to lead on to catastrophic engine failure. (its not proven, its just an educated guess based on owner experience so Toyota wont even acknowledge the problem yet.)
The MR2 engine is used across the Toyota range. The rest of the toyota range using this engine doesn't have precats. Now niether does mine. Emmsions testing is not an issue, as the main cat is more than man enough to cope with the MOT.
My advice would be to check your precats regularly, and at the first sign of degradation, whip 'em out, or warranty them. The check takes 5 minutes so its not a big deal..
markiii wrote:Quotesimple answer,
whatever the reason for them being fitted they don't have to pass that test anymore. Only the MOT.
you can pass the mot without them.
they are hazardous to your engines health.
there are no legal implication to you in rfemoving them.
personally I'd get shot.
Is this definate? I am not questioning your knoweldge Mark, so please don't take this the wrong way. Its just that when MrT test these cars, they hammer the buggers under all conditions. Ok, there are some things that get past these tests and show themselves at later dates when the car is out in the public and then we get the recalls and so on........But it does make me think that when they were doing their tests, surely these problems woudl have shown themselve up to MrT? I agree that there is evidence for them breaking down and causing damage, but if it was such a problem, surely MrT would have called them back? And if not (which I CAN see them doing), then what have we got to stand on against MrT if they do go t*ts up?
I am still not sure and I am not sure I want to take them out just straight away. I think I am going to take GSB's advice on this and just get them checked VERY regularly and if there is any sign of degradation, then I shall ask for them to be changed ot removed.
Further more, even though there is a VERY good write up on how to do this job, I am garageless, toolless and mechanically (in the practical sense) a bit of a nonce with this kind of thing. I FULLY understand the engineering and mechanics of MANY things (I am fascinated by it), but practially, this is a big job for me. I wouldn't want to tackle it on my own.
I take what you are saying and appreciate it, but I think, for now at least, I am going to take my chances........I may lve to regret that and you are going to say "told you so", but I still am not sure........
Thanks for the help though Mark and GSB!
Quote from: "John Woodward"But it does make me think that when they were doing their tests, surely these problems would have shown themselve up to MrT?
Remember the way that engine failures have shown themselves up on the forum. You could be very lucky and never suffer an engine failure, however you could have one after a few hundred miles.
Mr T could have been one of the lucky ones. Also they had no forum to compare with hundreds of other owners. So at the end of the day they would have believed that there was nothing wrong.
You never know....if they had tested it for another 100 miles maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion about pre-cats.
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Excellent write up. Do you think your car will show any improvement with the better exhaust flow now:?: Shame you couldn't have dome a pre and post dynos to prove the possible torque and power changes
Quote from: "Peter Laborne"It would be good if someone planning on gutting their (pre)cat could do before and after dyno runs and also emissions tests.
The jury is still out on weather any performance increase has occured, Ive only done about 60 miles since the cats came out, but on the whole I think yes. There seems to be a little bit more life in the car...
I deliberatley limited the work I carried out to the precats, and made sure nothing else changed, i.e. I left the battery connected so the ECU would not reset, and held off cleaning my MAF for another day. That way I would have a better idea of just what effect the change has had.
As for dyno testing, having identified a potentially catastophic problem in the precats, the last thing I was going to do was strap the car to a dyno!
John,.
I take your points, however my thoughts;
Toyota may do in depth testing but I doubt they are hitting 20-30000 miles in testing which is typically when problems seem to start. Granted there are a few exceptions to this such as MrMikes.
next, Toyota are aware of an oil issue as the material comprising teh rings that seal the pistons has supposedly been changed for the 03.
while this doesn't count as definative proof it indicates they know there is an issue in this regard. Also teh roadster is supposed to use more oil than many cars according to teh handbook. While oil getting past teh pistons is no biggy on it's own, I doubt they have teh data to determine teh effect after 30000 miles. besides putting my cynical hat on anything that lasts long enough to get past teh warranty period, is often classed as good enough by the manufacturers.
This isn't by teh way just a toyota problem. If you google for it, there are a couple of nissans in teh last few years with similar issues, and what looks liek teh same cause and effect (oil and pre-cats), fortunately Nissan did issue a recall.
Again any testing done by Toyota will liekly be with teh car maintained in accordance with their instructions, oil type for example. an awful lot of dealers seem to liek magnatec, which again if you google is hated by many perfromance drivers because of teh bad effects it's chemical makeup can have on teh engine. As for what is teh definative oil recomended by Toyota, I don't know, but there is enough variation just going on past polls on forum that we use, that pretty much guarantees most of us won't be using the same oil used under testing.
In addition most sports cars are driven hard. do toyota thrape teh nuts of tehir test cars? I don't know. Certainly I'd expect more engine failures for us than your average corolla or Yaris, even without the cat issues. In the states when teh first failures occured Toyota tried to blame it on people driving their cars too hard. Odd since teh advertising encouraged them to do just this. Advertising which has subsequently been witthdrawn, you can take your own conclusions from that.
Now add in what extras people may have on their cars taht could exacerbate teh problem, Blitz air filters for example allow far to much shit into the cylinders, this could score the walls and increase teh oil getting past teh rings. Will Toyota have tested these? I doubt it.
Finally, I can't give details as this was in confidence, so take it for what it's worth, but I did have a conversation with someone I would consider an expert on Toyota engines and ours in particluar where it was stated that toyota are known for using not substandard but shall we say some of the less desirable catalytic converters that are around, and that better ones could have been sourced. I beleive that statement, you may not.
At the end of teh day while we know of a fair few failures in the grand scheme of overall sales it is probably few, and hence it is cheaper for each case to be assesed on it's merits that it would be for them to issue a recall.
However at the end of the day only you presented with what evidence/speculation there is can decide upon whether your convinced by it or not. Personally I don't see a downside to removing them out of warranty, the potential downside of leaving them if tehy fail is a new engine. but again Only you can make teh asessment.
If your decision is to keep them then fine. I would advise howver that in addition to getting toyota to check when serviced (MAKE sure they document it on teh service record) I would be checking them every few thousand miles. As Grant said, when they go they don't hang about.
Quote from: "markiii"Finally, I can't give details as this was in confidence, so take it for what it's worth, but I did have a conversation with someone I would consider an expert on Toyota engines and ours in particluar where it was stated that toyota are known for using not substandard but shall we say some of the less desirable catalytic converters that are around, and that better ones could have been sourced. I beleive that statement, you may not.
That's easy to believe and I'd be surprised if it wasn't so. Better ones cost more and Toyota is making cars to make money. When normal ppl go buy a car, they couldn't care less if their cats are good or not, they just stare at the pricetag.
Mark, that is excellent stuff. Thank you for that. Much appreciated. I take all of what you have said very seriously can see where you are coming from on all points. Like I said before, I am not questioning your knowedge or judgement, I just want to know all the facts before I make what seems to ME a very drastic (regardless of whether you think it is or not) measure.
My car is standard, with no mods (do the side vents count? s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ) and has only ever had the oil that MrT themselves have put in it at services. It doesn't use oil at any rate (I hardly have to touch it between services. In fact, I don't actually remember having to top it up at all in my time as yet as it has always been full or thereabouts), the car is driven hard-ish, but not thrashed at all.........I would say I take good care of my car. So, maybe what I am asking is am I t risk, regardless of driving style and maintainance? I think maybe this is my main paranoia. I have had suggested to me that I seek an extended warranty to cover me for any engine failure or pre-cat destruction and this seems a very sensible suggestion, as it would have the bonus of covering other things on the car too. As the car is getting to that milage where these things could happen, then it does heighten my worries......
Are there any figures going about on the number of failures compared to sales? Just out of interest? And does this mean that maybe in 1 ir 2 years time MrT is going to have a whole HEAP of cars going back to them with the same problem? Or is it more likely than not that the car will be Ok?
Your info on the "less desirable" materials makes for interesting reading. Does make me wonder why companies like MrT would use usch materials if they know it is going to come back and bite them at a later date? Would they be so calculating, clever and cynical to do this KNOWING that this kind of thing is going to happen after most warranties are out so they know they can make a WHOLE heap of more money repairing what is essentially a problem casued by them in the first place? Would be interesting to know wouldn't it? But that kind of info would NEVER be divulged..........
I think I am going to take your latter bit of advice and get them to check pre-cats on services and have it written on the service report. I may also go down the extended warranty route too. If I had the practical skills and the logistics to do it, then I may consider taking out the pre-cats. At this moment, its not an option I could take, so will have to make all the preventative measures I can...........
I think this is a dilemma that is going to run on for me personally for some time. In the meantime, I am going to be careful, but all I want to do is just enjoy driving my car. can't be too much to ask can it?
Thanks a bunch for all your info Mark. Much appreciated and all taken very much on board..........
[edit] Wrong end of stick... [/edit]
no problem John.
If you go teh extended warranty route though, i would check teh small print and get in writing whether it covers emmisions gear and consequential damage. In theory you'd expect it too, in practice it will be a bit of a bitch if you cough up £500 or so and then find it isn't.
Yeah, you're right there Mark. A family member was bitten by something similar with household appliances. I temd to be VERY careful of what these things cover nowadays.......checking both MrT's and the AA's extended warranties and won't bother with either if they don't cover that kind of thing. Thanks for the reminder........ s:D :D s:D
beginning to wonder if i dare drive my car after reading all this
drive it, enjoy it.
take what pre-cautions you can, and if it does go, it's not earth shattering money to fix.
mine gets redlined regularly thst what I bought t for and thats how it gets driven.
If it all goes the way of the pear such is life.
Quote from: "markiii"drive it, enjoy it.
take what pre-cautions you can, and if it does go, it's not earth shattering money to fix.
mine gets redlined regularly thst what I bought t for and thats how it gets driven.
If it all goes the way of the pear such is life.
Couldn't agree more. This is by no means a new problem, but its one you can manage with additional maintenance checks. Its not the end of the earth if it does go bang, but if you carry out some regular inspections, you'll at least have the oppertunity to avert disaster at some point in the future, and save yourself a few hundred quid into the bargain... Otherwise, its business as usual...
Beginning to think your way Mark!!! I didn't buy the thing to worry about it going bang. I bought it cos I knew the Mk1s were good (shame about the Mk2s) and I fancied something I could thrash around. Drive it mate. Worry about it later...........
Excellent report Grant, I have now got the necessary tool and will check on my precats this weekend for the first time 30k and out of warranty,its fairly certain they are destined for the bin. Just a little question: you don't mention any new gaskets or seals , did you replace them as a matter of course or was it not needed.
Whether folks agree with the procedure or not ,its about sharing information and experience.Thanks man.
That is a brilliant write up, after reading all this i would definately give it a go. After all once the warrenty is up you are on your own. Im sure if i bugger it up i can source another manifold.
Well worth doing i feel, simply erasing one component that could cause big problems.
Excellent...
Quote from: "loadswine"Just a little question: you don't mention any new gaskets or seals , did you replace them as a matter of course or was it not needed.
Its good engineering practice to use new gaskets each time a joint is broken, and ordinarily I would do just that. I didn't this time purely because It was a fairly urgent job, and I know that Hayward & Scott didn't when they worked on my car last year. However I am going to put in new gaskets at the manifold to main cat joint, because I think it
might be leaking... Or it might be that my ears are being unusually paranoid and hearing every single little noise that the engine makes s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I cant actually find any evidence of a leak though, so its probably not really needed. Just dotting the i's and crossing the t's I guess... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Worrying reading for someone thinking of buying a new one.
Do we have any experience of Toyota's reaction if the pre cats were showing degradation during the warranty period?
My concern is if I do 20k miles in years 1 and 2, and the pre-cats start breaking up, the engine would probably go after the warranty period. Would Toyota act during the warranty period (replacing the pre-cats) or would they refuse to accept it as a problem?
sorry to be simple but i thought that the cats were on the exhaust side of the engine not on the intake side so how does the pre cat break up get into the inlet side and go into the bores and damage them.ok on a turbo the exhaust gasses are recirculated but not on a normal asperated engine. s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "dsr"sorry to be simple but i thought that the cats were on the exhaust side of the engine not on the intake side so how does the pre cat break up get into the inlet side and go into the bores and damage them.
Please check the thread called "How does broken pre-cat get into bores?"
Quote from: "mrsmr2"Worrying reading for someone thinking of buying a new one.
Do we have any experience of Toyota's reaction if the pre cats were showing degradation during the warranty period?
My concern is if I do 20k miles in years 1 and 2, and the pre-cats start breaking up, the engine would probably go after the warranty period. Would Toyota act during the warranty period (replacing the pre-cats) or would they refuse to accept it as a problem?
once they start to go they go quick. if you can show them a problem within warranty they have to fix it.
It's seems that the only way to truly check is to remove the exhaust.
Therefore, if Toyota found out someone had been removing and checking the pre cat on regular basis, would they pass the blame on - a la "I think you must have dropped it sir", or would they be reasonable about it?
Quote from: "mrsmr2"It's seems that the only way to truly check is to remove the exhaust.
Therefore, if Toyota found out someone had been removing and checking the pre cat on regular basis, would they pass the blame on - a la "I think you must have dropped it sir", or would they be reasonable about it?
The part of the pre-cat that we are interested in is only visible through the O2 hole, so there is no need to remove any part of the exhaust - just the O2 sensor.
I recently gutted mine. Check this out for further opionions http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46,
As far as I'm concerned this procedure is a must-do. And I'm not immensely mechanically inclined either. The hardest part is just reaching some of the upper manifold bolts, and breaking some heavily rusted lower bolts. Thanks GSB for this concise "how to". And thanks to Spyderchat for the warnings.
As for performance afterwards maybe it feels faster and is clearly a little louder (throatier) under throttle. If you look at the removed honeycombed remains of the precats they obviously have to have some sort of restriction. And if you feel how brittle it is you wonder how it could survive the exhaust pressure along with sportscar jarring for any period of time. This was a Toyota mistake.
Under the post "Buying second hand HOW DO I" - it says
"you can get a fair idea, on someones drive by getting an 02 tool, 22mm and a ratchedt. pop the o2 sensor out and shine a torch in.
this won't tell you if there is damage to the bottom of the cat, but thats a drop the downpipe job.
It will however mean that if you see a great hole you may want to pass on that particular car.
"
I interpret this as meaning that doing a proper check requires the removal of the full pre cat assembly.
Am I correct or is the removal of the O2 sensor sufficient?
Thanks
Jason
Removing the 02 sensor gives you access to the upper side of the precats. Pieces broken loose here are the pieces that will be sucked into the engine. If something breaks away from the lower side of the cat then its more likely to migrate down to the main cat, where it has the potential to cause a blockage and not much else. This is still bad, but nothing like as bad as having lumps of the stuff floating around in your cylinders. Arguably then, its the upper side we're more interested in, as it's exposed to the greater mechanical and thermal stresses, and has the potential to cause the most damage in the shortest amount of time.
I found that when my cats started to go the lower side was like new, with only the upper side showing signs of degrading.
Thanks, that is much clearer now.
Excellent information by the way.
Jason
just noticed on that spyderchat thread that some guy is on his FIFTH engine - talk about being unlucky!!
do you think it could be down to the lower octane fuel they use over there that's braking up the cats?
Quote from: "Tomr2"just noticed on that spyderchat thread that some guy is on his FIFTH engine - talk about being unlucky!!
do you think it could be down to the lower octane fuel they use over there that's braking up the cats?
When I read those, it seemed like the dealer tried to replace as little as possible...only causing the same to happen again. I don't remember anyone actually going through several engines, if the dealer replaced the whole engine, manifold and cat...
I checked on my precats yesterday and to my amazement! found that there was no sign of deterioration of the matrix visible. I had a really good look and was a little concerned at first when I saw that they were not completely flat across the surface and did ,in fact have a slightly dished shape in the central area. First I thought PANIC, but when I checked both sides I noticed that this shape seemed to be there on purpose to allow for the O2 sensors to sit close up to the surface of the honeycomb. Please tell me I'm right or my car has immediate surgery. s:x :x s:x
the monkey is now (pre) catless, MAF sensor cleaned and ECU reset - the 2 is now a different car s:D :D s:D
just to say thanks for the write up and hey if a monkey can do it anyone can s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "loadswine"I checked on my precats yesterday and to my amazement! found that there was no sign of deterioration of the matrix visible. I had a really good look and was a little concerned at first when I saw that they were not completely flat across the surface and did ,in fact have a slightly dished shape in the central area. First I thought PANIC, but when I checked both sides I noticed that this shape seemed to be there on purpose to allow for the O2 sensors to sit close up to the surface of the honeycomb. Please tell me I'm right or my car has immediate surgery. s:x :x s:x
Thats a new one on me. As new mine were completely flat. No dishing or anything.
I'm sure that manifold i had looked like the pre cats were slightly dished, by this i mean the centre looked higher than the sides, convex rather than concave.(i think)
If you have mine yet, take a look at it and see can you?
For your information:
The manifold to main cat gaskets are really non-reusable items, they seem to be held in stock by most main dealers, and at teh grand total of £5.22 for a pair, its a worthwhile investment.
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBgaskets1.jpg)
Part number is T90917-06065
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"I'm sure that manifold i had looked like the pre cats were slightly dished, by this i mean the centre looked higher than the sides, convex rather than concave.(i think)
If you have mine yet, take a look at it and see can you?
Will do s:wink: :wink: s:wink: as soon as I pick it up. Cheers Ian!
As my 60,000 service is due soon, I booked the car in for the end of May whilst I was getting the summer tyre fitted today.
I asked about an end of warrenty inspection and an inspection of the pre-cats. The receptionist looked at me and said she would recommend getting rid of the pre-cats as it causes engine damage, and that they currently had an MR2 in with motor damage caused by the pre-cats.
I guess I will get them to do it during that service.
Interesting, but was it really a receptionist?
Quote from: "victor"As my 60,000 service is due soon, I booked the car in for the end of May whilst I was getting the summer tyre fitted today.
I asked about an end of warrenty inspection and an inspection of the pre-cats. The receptionist looked at me and said she would recommend getting rid of the pre-cats as it causes engine damage, and that they currently had an MR2 in with motor damage caused by the pre-cats.
I guess I will get them to do it during that service.
Can you smuggle a tape recorder in with you and get that on tape please s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
thats very good then if toyota have properley recognised the problem and are coming clean about it. would be nice if all dealerships offered 'free pre-cat removal' on all mk 3 2's even the ones out of warranty like mine s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "phil4"Interesting, but was it really a receptionist?
Most definatly, but very knowledgeable. She could tighten my nuts anyday s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "SteveJ"Can you smuggle a tape recorder in with you and get that on tape please s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Can you understand German ?
Quote from: "Tomr2"thats very good then if toyota have properley recognised the problem and are coming clean about it. would be nice if all dealerships offered 'free pre-cat removal' on all mk 3 2's even the ones out of warranty like mine s:( :( s:(
Toyota UK and Toyota Germany being different companies may have a different list of "problems". In anycase I doubt it will be free.
Quote from: "Tomr2"thats very good then if toyota have properley recognised the problem and are coming clean about it. would be nice if all dealerships offered 'free pre-cat removal' on all mk 3 2's even the ones out of warranty like mine s:( :( s:(
Well, one receptionist in a dealership in Germany reckons they might be a bit dodgy... It falls slightly short of the recognition we'd like but it's a start I suppose. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:!: :!: s:!: DRIFT s:!: :!: s:!:
it was the same receptionist that told me about the MR2 TTE Turbo about 1 month before you had a mention of it on this site!
Beck to topic
Quote from: "da monkey"the monkey is now (pre) catless, MAF sensor cleaned and ECU reset - the 2 is now a different car s:D :D s:D
just to say thanks for the write up and hey if a monkey can do it anyone can s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
so what do you find different?
Whichever way you look at it, the message has got to be remove the precats. It would be the right thing to do for MrT(that title sounds a bit too honourable sometimes) to own up to the problem and fix it for all owners.
Also going back in the thread a little bit, has anybody else noticed the shape of the surface of the precat on the engine side? I am sure it looked dished slightly in the centre under the ends of the O2 sensors.If it has worn or broken up in that fashion its incredibly even,both sides identical, and if this is failure, I might as well throw my engine in the bin! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
My Mr T service manager called me today about more new wheels for the car, I told him to have a look at these threads regarding the pre-cat failure as he said he had no knowledge...are you reading this Andy!!?
Quote from: "Liz"I told him to have a look at these threads regarding the pre-cat failure as he said he had no knowledge...
Sounds just like Toyota...a while ago I told my friend to take his car in, cause the other precat was cracked. He took it to the same dealer who handled my blown engine and they just kept saying they nor Toyota have never heard of this problem before...
Later on we heard about 3rd case that had been there before me s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I bet all Toyota employees have Alzheimers, cause they wouldn't lie to a customer, would they? s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Addendum:
Regarding the manifold to main cat gaskets. They are indeed a use once design. The new gaskets measure 5mm thick, and once installed are crushed down to 4mm.
As a safety measure against future seizure of the studs, I coated them in Kluberpaste HEL 46-450, a dry screw lubricant and anti-sieze compound thats good for 1000 deg C. It's made by Kluber Lubrication, but I'm not sure if its generally available to the public, so if theres ever a "de-cat" meeting I'll bring some along with me.
Now, a "de-cat" meeting sounds VERY good. I like that idea...........
me too! hope it happens...
Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "da monkey"the monkey is now (pre) catless, MAF sensor cleaned and ECU reset - the 2 is now a different car s:D :D s:D
just to say thanks for the write up and hey if a monkey can do it anyone can s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
so what do you find different?
louder exhaust but think i need to get a new main to cat gasket s:oops: :oops: s:oops: as per GBH hee hee s:lol: :lol: s:lol: i mean GSB
but def better low down torque/acceleration - could be removal of restrictive precats?? but probably cleaning of MAF but either way i is a happy monkey s:lol: :lol: s:lol: as car goes better and have no worries re engine failure due to precat degrade
Quote from: "da monkey"Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "da monkey"the monkey is now (pre) catless, MAF sensor cleaned and ECU reset - the 2 is now a different car s:D :D s:D
just to say thanks for the write up and hey if a monkey can do it anyone can s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
but def better low down torque/acceleration - could be removal of restrictive precats?? but probably cleaning of MAF but either way i is a happy monkey s:lol: :lol: s:lol: as car goes better and have no worries re engine failure due to precat degrade
I think you have more torque everywhere (I have). I have a 6 speed gearbox (2003 model), and before , it was just an overdrive. Now it is a real gear.
I noticed also an improvement in max. speed on 6 gear.
would be interesting to see a before and after dyno results...
the sooner we have this de-cat meet, the better! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
QuoteAlso going back in the thread a little bit, has anybody else noticed the shape of the surface of the precat on the engine side? I am sure it looked dished slightly in the centre under the ends of the O2 sensors.If it has worn or broken up in that fashion its incredibly even,both sides identical, and if this is failure, I might as well throw my engine in the bin!
Mine are destroyed now, but I don't remember the engine sides being dished at all. They appeared flat like the bottom end. But this is for a US spec, and I've noticed in the photos here that the exit end of the precats seems to be closer to the bottom of the header, so maybe we have different precats altogether.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"I'm sure that manifold i had looked like the pre cats were slightly dished, by this i mean the centre looked higher than the sides, convex rather than concave.(i think)
If you have mine yet, take a look at it and see can you?
I just took a look inside, and they look pretty flat to me. remarkably good condition too, how long were they on your car?
Didn't pay that much attention, just thought they looked dished from memory. s:? :? s:?
They were on the car for about 7k miles. That was enough for me to dump it and go turbo. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "victor"Quote from: "SteveJ"Can you smuggle a tape recorder in with you and get that on tape please s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Can you understand German ?
Kein problem s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen: immer her damit....
Quote from: "victor"it was the same receptionist that told me about the MR2 TTE Turbo about 1 month before you had a mention of it on this site!
s:!: :!: s:!: DRIFT s:!: :!: s:!:
Victor
If you remember, I first found out (officially) that TTE were developing a turbo for the Roadster back in July 2002. Though at the time they hadn't finished building the first one s8) 8) s8)
Tried to gut my precats today and mega problem with one of the 14mm nuts at junction of manifold to main cat pipe.It totally will not budge,used penetrating fluid in abundance and good quality socket set,but nut is now burred and I'm completely snookered. Looks like I'll have to reassemble it and drive with my fingers crossed all the time. I hate working on exhausts!!! s:x :x s:x
If you go to an exhaust centre, they will extract it for you for a small fee, and you can then temporarily replace it with an M10 bolt for the journey to the Toyota dealer where you can get a new stud and nut, then back home for cat gutting and tea...
Quote from: "GSB"If you go to an exhaust centre, they will extract it for you for a small fee, and you can then temporarily replace it with an M10 bolt for the journey to the Toyota dealer where you can get a new stud and nut, then back home for cat gutting and tea...
Will Kwik Fit s:shock: :shock: s:shock: do this sort of bolt extraction then? I couldn't find my 12mm socket and I've rounded off one fof the 4 manifold heatshield bolts using a crappy ring spanner s:x :x s:x There other 3 are fine but no amount of WD40 will help me now.
assuming the mole grips wont.
can try it later today if you want?
Mark I'll pop round in about an hour?
Is it out? If not you might try a nut splitter? very handy for rounded nuts...
It's out now after Mark's hard work, thanks again Mark. He tried with various tools before we decided to cut the head of the bolt off with a Dremel and replace the heatshield (once sprayed) with only 3 bolts. But for some reason after Mark was halfway through the bolt head with the Dremel, I suggested trying the socket again and it worked!!!
I've kept the bolt as I can't believe it came out in one very battered piece.
Using a 22mm O2 sensor socket
Where can I buy one of these?
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/gsbsearchbig.jpg)
m http://www.mr2roc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2045 (http://www.mr2roc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2045) m
just ordered my 22mm sloted socket, cost £11.05 with shipping.
Thanks for the help.
<MOD> Conversation regarding Jon's engine moved to here...... (http://www.mr2roc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3928) </MOD>
I had a bit of an issue with the manifold-cat bolts. They all opened pretty nicely (no wonder really, since they had only been on for ~500 miles), but two of them opened as "a bolt", while the nut opened in the 3rd one and the "bolt" was left in the manifold.
Should I be worried about that, or does it make any difference at all?
Makes no difference Tem, they just open what ever thread has least resistance.
Just to be sure :
can somebody confirms that removing them doesn't make the car run louder ?
I currently have a TRD header, and with my Remus exhaust, the sound is too high for my wife s:-( :-( s:-(
I'm thinking of putting back my stock header but I really fear pre cat failure (especially with track use), and would prefer to gut them.
GSB said there was no increase, but da monkey said the opposite.
I would like to know, as I can't cancel this once done.
Thank you.
On my car its probabley slightly louder now. Hard to say really, but its certainly changed the sound, its far more raw than it used to be, with pops and crackles now and then. Different... but I've had no complaints from my lady.
Of course if you want a good home for that TRD header... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Running mine with the A'PEXi and the H & S, mine is alot louder, so much so that people that know the car have commented on it and asked what I have had done.
Mine is slightly louder, but not outrageously so.
Quote from: "dieamond"Just to be sure :
can somebody confirms that removing them doesn't make the car run louder ?
I currently have a TRD header, and with my Remus exhaust, the sound is too high for my wife s:-( :-( s:-(
Cat=Muffler
Things will get louder, if you remove a cat. I suppose a catless stock header should sound about the same as a TRD header...
I would argue boomier than teh TRD as you have 2 resonance chambers.
The main problem (I've had it with the PPE ehader, so I think the Remus exhaust is just not header compliant :p) is a very bass loud sound around 3000 RPM which disturbs her...
I'm really affraid that it will be the same with a gutted stock header s:-( :-( s:-(
The sound on liz car, which has an aftermarket exhaust goes in this direction...
GSB > you can find TRD headers for a good price somewhere close to me s;-) ;-) s;-)
Quote from: "dieamond"a very bass loud sound around 3000 RPM which disturbs her...
Then keep revving above that and if she nags, tell her she wanted it s8) 8) s8)
Problem solved s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Thanks Tem s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "dieamond"The main problem (I've had it with the PPE ehader, so I think the Remus exhaust is just not header compliant :p) is a very bass loud sound around 3000 RPM which disturbs her...
I have the Remus, (but still have pre-cats.. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: ) and it makes a fantastic very loud bass sound at about 1600 rpm.. which co-incidentally is almost exactly 30mph in 4th gear! s8) 8) s8)
I'm just hoping it'll get louder when I eventually gut my pre-cats!
Tim
Yup, definately louder on mine, but definately in a good way....... s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "c_a_r_t_e_r"I'm just hoping it'll get louder when I eventually gut my pre-cats!
You will :-) :-) :-)
Sound is really beautifull with a freed header
Hi everyone,
I am new to your website and after reading all the information written about the precat problem, I decided to take the proactive approach and remove mine early on. My spyder is an 03 with 1555 miles on it.
I used the detained instructiions written here and everything came apart quite easily. I did have to use an off-set 12mm wrench for the upper left-hand nut on the exhaust manifold ( A deep-well socket will not fit in there). I used lots of PB Blaster on the nuts/bolts and let this sit awhile before I started. Pretty easy job, if I can do it most anyone can.
I was really suprised at how easily the material crumbled when I was gutting the thing. Scarry!!!! Maybe Toyota could put a wire mesh screen on both ends of the precat. That may help some but given the fact that this material crumbles into very small particles, the screen may not help either.
I took my spyder on a short (95 mile, country roads, 100-110 mph) test drive after I finished and I noticed that the car did seem to breathe/tach easier. The exhaust note is a little louder and to my ears quite pleasent.
Since this mod was done on a new car I will keep everyone posted on how things turn out.
Again, thanks everyone.
Ron
Right, who wants to gut my pre-cats for me?
I have no mechanical knowledge, non of the apparatus and a good awfull fear of ruining my car.
I'm willing to pay.
go on, who wants it?
Quote from: "odub"Right, who wants to gut my pre-cats for me?
I have no mechanical knowledge, non of the apparatus and a good awfull fear of ruining my car.
I'm willing to pay.
go on, who wants it?
Heh heh.......I was and am exactly the same. I went to the pre-cat gutting meet and the Grant, the star did mine, but I reckon he might be a bit peed off with doing them now!!!
I am sure someone might be willing to chip in!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "odub"Right, who wants to gut my pre-cats for me?
I have no mechanical knowledge, non of the apparatus and a good awfull fear of ruining my car.
I'm willing to pay.
go on, who wants it?
I could help but I think shipping would be kinda pricy s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Oh by the way, both upper and lower surfaces of my '03 precats were flat. I used a 2 foot breaker bar to loosen the lower precat manifold bolts. Those suckers are tight even on a new car.
You're a bit far away from me for my services to be of any use, but if anyone in the Midlands wants a hand, I'd be willing to help.
Did mine tonight
I'm waiting for some DEI tape tio put around the header before putting it back in, installation wednesday next week I would say.
gonna get myself a pair of the gaskets that you need tommorrow and *hopefully* be attempting it friday - if the whethers nice!
My O2's still stuck - still i should have time for a visit to Mr T tomorrow s:? :? s:?
Tip's of the day :
don't do this with bare arms and wear some gloves
I'm scratching like an old dog even after 2 showers :/
Quote from: "dieamond"Tip's of the day :
don't do this with bare arms and wear some gloves
I'm scratching like an old dog even after 2 showers :/
s:D :D s:D Oops, I suppose I should have written something like that into the original instructions, but several years of exposure to the stuff mean that I dont really feel it anymore!
Quote from: "dieamond"Tip's of the day :
don't do this with bare arms and wear some gloves
I'm scratching like an old dog even after 2 showers :/
I didn't have an issue with hands s8) 8) s8) But I figured it can't be a good idea to breath that stuff, so I used a mask...
Guys, could just getting a performance manifold fitted take all the worry away.
Plus you get a bit more bhp ?
james
Quote from: "j80rjo"Guys, could just getting a performance manifold fitted take all the worry away.
Plus you get a bit more bhp ?
Yes... but it will cost you in the region of £300+
Gutting is free, and if you look at the TRD header, you now have something VERY similar s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "Slacey"Yes... but it will cost you in the region of £300+
The PPE manifold was about £240 shipped to Finland s;) ;) s;) Made the rest of the pipe myself paying ~£50 for the parts...I think that's a great value for money. Where else could you get nice extra power and significant weight reduction far away from the centre for that kind of money s8) 8) s8)
(had already killed my precats earlier for £0)
anyone in US have their pre-cats gutted? how much to they cost if u take it to a shop to do it? what type of shop should i take to? a muffler shop?
i just got mine 00' MR-2 last week and im worried about this problem. is the pre-cat failure problem noticeable or it is a "instant death" problem that will blow the engine?
thanks!
Richard
Quote from: "sonar"anyone in US have their pre-cats gutted? how much to they cost if u take it to a shop to do it? what type of shop should i take to? a muffler shop?
There are several people on w www.spyderchat.com (http://www.spyderchat.com) w (US based Spydersite) who have done this. Apparently you can't find a shop in US to do this, cause it's illegal...or at least anyone won't name any shops out loud s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quoteis the pre-cat failure problem noticeable or it is a "instant death" problem that will blow the engine?
Once you notice it, it's already too far. Probably the only way to catch this in time is to check the precats regularly, like every time you fill up. It just gets very boring very fast s:? :? s:?
Is there a quick fix for an engine that has just started to suffer as a consequence of pre-cat failure?
no fix, you can band aid it, but ultimately if thats the proble, by by engine s:-( :-( s:-(
Quote from: "markiii"no fix, you can band aid it, but ultimately if thats the proble, by by engine s:-( :-( s:-(
Band aid it? Like how? I suppose once it's in its further stages of breakdown its a new block job or at least a rebore and pistons...
band aid, gut teh precats so it can't get worse, the just keep an eye on teh oil level and top up as appropriate. You will get through increasing large amounts of oil as it gets worse, but get those precats out ASAP.
none of this will be anything other than an excersise in putting of teh inevitable, new engine or at least short block.
if you gut the precats though you may at least save you main cat.
Of course this is assuming your engine is already suffering "The Symptoms"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but havent you only had the car about 5 minutes? Is it possible you're just reading all this and expecting the worst?
Seeing as your car is out of warranty, I'd gut the cats anyway... You may not have a problem with them at all, but, in my experience, it certainly stops you worrying about them...
If your cats have broken down, and your car is consuming vast quantities of oil, then "band aid" is about right. But some cars do use more oil that others, mines never used a drop, whilst some owners have reported that they do have to top up now and again. Both are normal.
No I haven't had the car long and I don't actually know for sure if it is burning oil, it's just that I can smell it every now and then. As I said in another post, it's not often but a couple of times per day I'll smell the burnt oil. I'm sure I've got nothing to worry about but I will definately be gutting the pre-cats as soon as the weather clears up just as a preventative measure.
cheers
i just got my 2000 MR2 last week without warranty. its got 43k miles on it already. i really dont know if the pre-cat is already bad or what.
its like this, when my rpm is lower than 1, i step on the gas pedal and the rpm wont go up instantly like other cars, like the reaction is slower... is this normal?
and my spyder cant even spin the wheels abit, even thought i start at 7000rpm during the 1st gear... im really worried man...
sorry if im asking stupid questions, what is the difference between "manifold" , "main cat" and "headers"?
Quote from: "sonar"sorry if im asking stupid questions, what is the difference between "manifold" , "main cat" and "headers"?
Manifold=header, that's the one with the O2 sensoders and precats that connects to the engine.
Main cat is the one in the pipe that is between the manifold and muffler.
Got my DEI tape tthis morning, installed it at noon, the stock header transformed goes in this evening :-) :-) :-)
It's installed, just made half a kilometer to burn the DEI tape
I think this rocks :-) :-) :-)
Pics :
http://www.mrs-passion.com/images/Galleries/Divers/cata_plusrien.jpg
http://www.mrs-passion.com/images/Galleries/Divers/cata_vousmereconnaissez.jpg
In car videos :
TRD header + Remus exhaust + TRD style intake :
http://www.mrs-passion.com/Showroom/Soundclips/Dieamond/DieMRSoundclip.wmv
Gutted header + Remus exhaust + TRD Style intake :
http://www.mrs-passion.com/Showroom/Videos/DieInCar2.wmv
Dieamond,
What sort of effect does the tape have? Decreased noise?
Only a little
But mainly it keeps heat inside the header, so it lowers the temperature in the engine compartment, which is a good thing by itself :-) :-) :-)
Plus, hotter gaz run faster> it should give 1 or 2 more HP s;-) ;-) s;-)
Actually I run without the main heatshield because I want to paint it.
This noon I'll try to find some heat resistant paint
How many metres of this thermal tape is required to cover a single manifold? It seems to come in rolls of 5, 10 and 15m.
Quote from: "GSB"How many metres of this thermal tape is required to cover a single manifold? It seems to come in rolls of 5, 10 and 15m.
Going to do it? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(it's one of the best ways to capture moisture and make the manifold rust through)
Just wanted to thank GSB for his article on removing the precats. I did it this morning with no problems at all thanks to all the information on here.
Cheers
koni s:D :D s:D
Has anyone who has removed their precats had the engine managmeent light come on? If so what did they do to make if go off!!!
As this subject comes on in a million new topics, maybe this one should be a sticky...?
so what percentage of 2's do you rekon this happens to? just wondering as i spoke to one of the mechanics at a Mr T garage and he genuinly had never heard of the problem
pass on figures, but just in the club theres a load of people who have had problems and a write up in a national paper to boot proves that the problem does exist even if it is hyped up a bit
shocking then that Mr T hasnt done something about allowing you to take your car in and get them out
Quote from: "reddi"shocking then that Mr T hasnt done something about allowing you to take your car in and get them out
Shocking? Not really when you think of their choices:
1) Admit the problem, recall all MR2's or at least repair them at no cost even after warranty.
2) Keep quiet and handle them case by case, always saying that this is the first they've heard of.
Now remember that the '2 is a very rare car. Toyota sold like 15.000-20.000 of them worldwide per year...for 5 years. That's some 100.000 cars. Now lets say every fifth car blows up during warranty and it costs £5k to fix it. That might be rounding upwards, but so be it. That's only £100k bill...for 5 years total. Admitting the issue might cost another £100k in the next 5 years. Don't know, just guessing out loud.
Toyota hopes to sell 8.500.000 cars next year...that's almost 500 times the number of '2's. £100k is nothing compared to that. Keeping a clean troublefree image helps to sell the cars that matter financially. I don't know how much profit they make per car, some sources guestimate 3000-5000 euros per car (for life, including all maintenance as well). Let's assume the first, about £2k. Selling 50 cars would cover the engine swaps to all '2's. Or 10 cars per year for next 5 years. In reality admitting they have a huge issue in their engines would make them lose way more than 10 new car sales per year.
It's pure business, not good will.
yeah i totally see what you mean. But say my pre-cats failed tomorrow and i take to Mr T and they look at me and say we cant help or say they will need 3K (just a figure) to fix it. im obviously not going to be very happy and will make sure that everyone then knows about this issue and Mr T's attitude to let it go hoping it never gets noticed.
The reason i hate this is like many others i can drive but thats where my car experience goes and so i dont want to try removing pre-cats and have knowone to do it for me. so im tempted to just leave them alone, but the thought of paying all this money for my car and then the engine to blow and get told i need a new engine and mr t isnt even going to help, that is what makes it hard
Why don't you buy a warranty from Mr T or an aftermarket one from Warranty Direct? Engine blows - should be covered - one one from warranty direct cost £247 for 13 months.
Or look around for the next precat removal party s8) 8) s8)
(or offer someone money to take them off for you)
ive tried offering money but no one that lives near me that can do it, and the next pre cat removal is in england and to far to travel
Reddi, now that you're aware of the problem, it's time to figure out a solution. It isn't an easy job, but isn't that hard, either. If you can turn a wrench, you can do it. Otherwise, keep looking for gutting meets that you can attend, or try to locate a garage that will do it for you.
Im going to do mines in a few weeks so I'l let you know how difficult it actually is - I've had a good look at things and all seems as though it should be quite simple providing everything is unseized.
If somebody had a decent facility to do it, I would be up for a gutting meet, however I shall be doing mines either at work or outside my flat s:( :( s:(
richie
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "reddi"shocking then that Mr T hasnt done something about allowing you to take your car in and get them out
Shocking? Not really when you think of their choices:
1) Admit the problem, recall all MR2's or at least repair them at no cost even after warranty.
2) Keep quiet and handle them case by case, always saying that this is the first they've heard of.
Now remember that the '2 is a very rare car. Toyota sold like 15.000-20.000 of them worldwide per year...for 5 years. That's some 100.000 cars. Now lets say every fifth car blows up during warranty and it costs £5k to fix it. That might be rounding upwards, but so be it. That's only £100k bill...for 5 years total. Admitting the issue might cost another £100k in the next 5 years. Don't know, just guessing out loud.
Toyota hopes to sell 8.500.000 cars next year...that's almost 500 times the number of '2's. £100k is nothing compared to that. Keeping a clean troublefree image helps to sell the cars that matter financially. I don't know how much profit they make per car, some sources guestimate 3000-5000 euros per car (for life, including all maintenance as well). Let's assume the first, about £2k. Selling 50 cars would cover the engine swaps to all '2's. Or 10 cars per year for next 5 years. In reality admitting they have a huge issue in their engines would make them lose way more than 10 new car sales per year.
It's pure business, not good will.
Surely "sweeping it under the carpet" would cause more problems than addmitting it s:? :? s:? Due to word of mouth will loose Toyota sales...
Quote from: "dimwit"Surely "sweeping it under the carpet" would cause more problems than addmitting it s:? :? s:? Due to word of mouth will loose Toyota sales...
Think about it. When the average Joe is buying a new car, would he have a clue about our engine issues with the way things are now? He's just happy that he knows someone with a Toyota who never had problems with it and he hasn't read about any major recalls in his favourite auto magazine. That's where the volume and money is, not among the enthusiasts s:? :? s:?
Hello, I am new to the site and have owned an 51 mr2 for just over 12 months. I recently noticed a difference in the tone of the engine. I took the car to a friend who carries out services. I was alarmed to find whilst reving the engine a noise similar to rattling tapit was evident. This has sice gone, but there is now a different sound from the engine when under load. I visited my local Toyota dealer and the mechanic who test drove my car said there was no significant difference, he also told me about issues with pre cats on the mr2. He said he knew of 3 that had been returned to the dealership in Wakefield with cat problems, and luckily for the owners had the issue rectified under warranty.
A fter reading the forum I cant help but think I am on the bad side of the cat problem. I am going to attemt removal of the pre cat, can I expect to see lights staying on after the removal and if so what can I do to clear the problem.
s:? :? s:?
you should get no error lights at all.
if you do disconnect teh battery for 10 minutes and that shuld clear it.
Quote from: "markiii"you should get no error lights at all.
if you do disconnect the battery for 10 minutes and that shuld clear it.
Thanks for the reply Mark.
I removed the cat from the system and one of the pre cats is missing, "oh dear",. When I turned the cat upsidedown, out came the ceramic peices.
The trouble is I dont know how damaged the cat is. Instead of removing the manifold and risk breaking a stud, I am going to break the second pre cat into smaller pieces then vacuum the inside of the chamber. I cant realy see this being a problem, as many of the ceramic pieces have passed through into the cat already.
I am now sh-----g myself thinking about the cost and where my level of expertise runs out.
I have phoned the local dealer who has advised me to phone Toyota GB and explain the situation. They may look at this situation favourably. s:( :( s:(
good luck with the Toyota bit Gary. Just a bit of advice if your removing the rest of the cats without dropping the manifold off the engine, make sure you remove the O2 sensors first and jam some oily or damp rags in the o2 ports to help prevent any more particles from entering the engine
whats your oil consumption been like recently????
good luck
Quote from: "kanujunkie"good luck with the Toyota bit Gary. Just a bit of advice if your removing the rest of the cats without dropping the manifold off the engine, make sure you remove the O2 sensors first and jam some oily or damp rags in the o2 ports to help prevent any more particles from entering the engine
whats your oil consumption been like recently????
good luck
Thanks fo the interest kanujunkie, Ive only gone and bloody done it!.
I removed the bottom of the pre cat and found only one of the chambers had the ceramic material in it, the right side was empty (is this normal). [/b][/color]I broke the other with a screwdriver and used a good old dyson to vac out any remaining fibre, as it turned out it was as clean as a whistle when I finished. Anyway its all back together now, no warning lights, however it does still have the different tone to the engine. I dont know if the cats been affected, but I will find out later this month when I take it for an MOT.
I think tomorrow I will take off the rocker cover and see if there is anything obvious. As for oil consumption it does not seem to loose any.
looks like you may be lucky, you need to make sure the top of the main cat is clear or else this would be in vain, as for the tone of the exhaust, yes it does change, what i would describe as slightly more throaty
Quote from: "garystorey"the right side was empty (is this normal)
Nope, not normal at all. Both sides should be identical - a ceramic cylindrical core held in place by fibreglass wadding.
If one side was missing then chances are it's all sat on top of the main CAT - at a minium, take the main CAT off and shake it out upside down.. Hopefully lots of cr*p will fall out!
Maybe as you caught it straight away you have got away with bits of ceramic in the pistons s:? :? s:? ; lets hope it continues not to use any oil matey s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Maybe as you caught it straight away you have got away with bits of ceramic in the pistons s:? :? s:? ; lets hope it continues not to use any oil matey s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Hello Heathstimson, thanks for the reply, Since looking at all of the input on the forum, it helps me understand my current situation. Around 4 weeks ago the car made a noise like someone had thrown something at a panel whilst passing. This was whilst I was accelerating, then a week or so later whilst reversing out of my garage, from cold I heard another mechanical sound. Non of this appeared to have an affect on perfomance or engine tone. I say engine tone because I think it now has a mechanical sound rather than a throaty sound. The engine sound changed after I accelerated hard a couple of weeks ago, but as stated previously in the forum, the mechanic did not think this was an issue. I think its more a case of waiting to see what develops from the noise. Today I am going to change the oil again to see if there is any debris, although this would be the second oil change in as many weeks and there were no bits in the first time. Is it likely if I remove the rocker cover I may see any damage?.
Once again thanks to everyone for thier interest in my plight.
You'll not be able to see any damage I'm afraid, Gary - unless you intend to strip the engine right down just to inspect (and by that, I mean taking the head off at the very least).
Basically, the damage you get is akin to throwing cutting compound into the cylinder - so the damage is to the cylinder walls themselves.
Because any particulates that get sucked in will be incredibly small, the chances of seeing them in the oil are slim (unless you start staring at it under a microscope s:) :) s:) ) - and the rocker cover would only let you inspect the valve train (which, again, wouldn't show any visible damage).
Your best bet at this stage is just to make sure that the main CAT is free & clear, and keep an eye on oil consumption - if it goes suddenly very high (and I mean very high - think litres per 100miles) then you have further problems..
Quote from: "aaronjb"You'll not be able to see any damage I'm afraid, Gary - unless you intend to strip the engine right down just to inspect (and by that, I mean taking the head off at the very least).
Basically, the damage you get is akin to throwing cutting compound into the cylinder - so the damage is to the cylinder walls themselves.
Because any particulates that get sucked in will be incredibly small, the chances of seeing them in the oil are slim (unless you start staring at it under a microscope s:) :) s:) ) - and the rocker cover would only let you inspect the valve train (which, again, wouldn't show any visible damage).
Your best bet at this stage is just to make sure that the main CAT is free & clear, and keep an eye on oil consumption - if it goes suddenly very high (and I mean very high - think litres per 100miles) then you have further problems..
I dont know if I am using the forum correctly, but this is a n update on my situation, I returned to the local dealer, who is checking out my situation. There is one thing I need to know, where can I buy a cat from and how much is it likely to cost??, can anyone help?, regards
Quote from: "garystorey"I returned to the local dealer, who is checking out my situation. There is one thing I need to know, where can I buy a cat from and how much is it likely to cost??, can anyone help?, regards
Well...the stock cat pipe goes for a bit over $1000 in US...
You can get generic cats for a LOT less, which have to be welded in place of the stock cat. IIRC, w www.summitracing.com (http://www.summitracing.com) w has them starting from $60.
(you might wanna get a high flow version while you're at it)
Aye - CATs are expensive, you could try Adam ("Jap GT300" here) and see if he has any secondhand ones knocking about..
(and BTW, just realised this is all tagged on to the end of the original pre-cat HOW-TO.. mods, perhaps we should split this bit of conversation off into a new topic?)
does the aftermarket warranty from warrantydirect cover the pre cats?
i spoke to warrantydirect abou this and they said there highest level one covers pretty much everything except cats. But, however, if a cat were to fail and cause other parts to fail, ie precat killing engine they would replace everything except the cat itself so you would have to fork out for the cat but they would replace engine, at least thats the impression i was giving on the phone!
still be better to gut them in the first place though eh?
definately!
Had my pre-cats removed yesterday thanks to Dan.
Looks like one of mine was in the first stages of disintegrating, thankfully my engine should be fine now.
A big thanks to the club also for sharing this wealth of knowledge with us.
s8) 8) s8)
Sssshhh, don't tell everyone, or I'll get roped into doing it like Mark has!
s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
quick question, I finally received my easy outs today to remove the bolt which snapped on my heatshield.
once i remove the heatshiled, what condition should i expect the block-to-manifold nuts / bolts to be in? ie are they well protected from corrosion or should i expect them to be fecked too?
Cheers,
Richie
Expect them to be... tricky s;) ;) s;)
They should be fine (90% of the time) as long as you use a good 6-sided hex socket and plenty of dismantly lube when undoing them, though - they don't rust anywhere near as much as the heatshield ones generally.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Expect them to be... tricky s;) ;) s;)
They should be fine (90% of the time) as long as you use a good 6-sided hex socket and plenty of dismantly lube when undoing them, though - they don't rust anywhere near as much as the heatshield ones generally.
but do cause a lot of swearing, but we do have the famous Aaron technique if you cant get em off, only to be used in emergency's though
whats that a coating of oil ? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
sorry
Quote from: "kanujunkie"but do cause a lot of swearing, but we do have the famous Aaron technique if you cant get em off, only to be used in emergency's though
Would that involve calling the fire brigade out and moving the '2 with a dust-pan and brush s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "extremeMR2"Quote from: "kanujunkie"but do cause a lot of swearing, but we do have the famous Aaron technique if you cant get em off, only to be used in emergency's though
Would that involve calling the fire brigade out and moving the '2 with a dust-pan and brush s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
no, just losing your rag, literally in this case s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:P :P s:P
I believe Stu would be referring to either the time I set some bolts alight ( s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) or me sitting underneath the car in Mark's pit getting very wet while we washed out the pre-CAT chambers s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Still, I got the easy bit - Stu got to sit underneath the car and remove the preCAT material from the bottom only.. s:) :) s:)
i bit the bullet at the weekend and paid my local mechanic to gut the pre cats, i had a heat shield bolt i coudnt loosen myself, no way of raising the car properly and nowhere inside to work. stuggling for cash but reasoned it was dumb not to considering how much the car cost! mechanic reckoned one was in the early stages of breaking up so hopefully ive got it in time. i consider mysely pretty streetwise when haggling for cars, and was very happy with the deal i got, but i wish i had done my homework here before buying as i would have made the pre cat removal a condition of sale. having owned a mark 1 for ten years i was totally impressed by toyota build quality and didnt consider for a second the roadster would have any serious issues. im appalled at the lengths we have had to go to as owners simply to be sure we have a reliable car, imho the pre cat issue is a design fault and toyota should have been liable. just a thought, if someone is unfortunate enough to have a total engine failure due to pre cat failure, and we are as sure as possible thats what it was, i would be perfectly happy to contribute towards a fighting fund to get a specialist engs. report, legal rep etc and have a go at mr t! it woudnt cost much from each member and would give toyota a boot up the jacksey!
sorry, double posted in error.
Quote from: "aaronjb":P
I believe Stu would be referring to either the time I set some bolts alight ( s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) or me sitting underneath the car in Mark's pit getting very wet while we washed out the pre-CAT chambers s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Still, I got the easy bit - Stu got to sit underneath the car and remove the preCAT material from the bottom only.. s:) :) s:)
it'll be option B i'm refuring to
Quote from: "nelix"i bit the bullet at the weekend and paid my local mechanic to gut the pre cats, i had a heat shield bolt i coudnt loosen myself, no way of raising the car properly and nowhere inside to work. stuggling for cash but reasoned it was dumb not to considering how much the car cost! mechanic reckoned one was in the early stages of breaking up so hopefully ive got it in time. i consider mysely pretty streetwise when haggling for cars, and was very happy with the deal i got, but i wish i had done my homework here before buying as i would have made the pre cat removal a condition of sale. having owned a mark 1 for ten years i was totally impressed by toyota build quality and didnt consider for a second the roadster would have any serious issues. I'm appalled at the lengths we have had to go to as owners simply to be sure we have a reliable car, imho the pre cat issue is a design fault and toyota should have been liable. just a thought, if someone is unfortunate enough to have a total engine failure due to pre cat failure, and we are as sure as possible thats what it was, i would be perfectly happy to contribute towards a fighting fund to get a specialist engs. report, legal rep etc and have a go at mr t! it woudnt cost much from each member and would give toyota a boot up the jacksey!
I just wish i did more about it when it happend to my last roadster, but back then I was happy just to get my money back. I actually wish i took it to watchdog at the time. that should give the voice needed to get toyota to do something about it.
Richie
Thats not a bad idea, i think everyone on here who has had a precat faiure, or two as the case may be. to write into watchdog and see what happens.
im tempted to do it about the corrosion on my alloy wheels too
DONE!
The instructions here were great. No major problems throughout the whole process.
The most difficult thing was getting some of the bolts/nuts off. Those things are really stuck on there. I stripped the head off of one of the top bolts on the upper heat shield. I'm not going to worry about fixing that one right now. The hardest ones to get off were the 3 nuts that connect the precats to the main cat pipe. Had to go to Lowes and buy a 30" pipe to aid me there.
A couple of things that I found, the bottom bolts on the upper heat shield and the two "hidden" bolts on the lower heat shied were both more easily accessible from the underneath. Also, there's a bracket that connects the lower heat shield to the block (actually 2 brackets). The 12mm bolt I removed from the block. I couldn't get the 14mm bolt out of the block so I removed the other one that connects the heat shield to the bracket. It was much longer and finer threads, but it came out easily.
Once I had everything back together and cranked it up I noticed a lot of smoke coming from the manifold area. Since it kept smoking when I stopped the engine, I'm assuming it is the penetrating oil burning off. I drove it around some last night and it finally stopped smoking. I'm going to take it out again this morning to make sure everything is good.
So thanks for all the help. Now I can stop worrying about the precats.
Michael
Congratulations on ensuring you have many years of worry-free MR2 motoring left! s:D :D s:D
Oh, and welcome to the club Michael: That's not a bad first post to make there. s8) 8) s8)
Yep, smoke must have been the penetrating oil. Feel good knowing that the precats are out and the sound is definitely more throaty.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Expect them to be... tricky s;) ;) s;)
They should be fine (90% of the time) as long as you use a good 6-sided hex socket and plenty of dismantly lube when undoing them, though - they don't rust anywhere near as much as the heatshield ones generally.
Hello again, its been a while since I contacted the forum and once again my limited knowledge of forum etiquette may mean I am going about thing the wrong way, but I do have another very important issue. A while back I decatted my MR2 after the collapse of one of the precats. I had the situation where the engine management warning light came on, and I was advised to disconnect the battery for 20 mins, however after around 40 miles or approx 3hrs of driving the light keeps coming back on. I have returned the car to the Dealer who informs me that the 02 sensor and all of the precat and exhaust needs replacing. This is a major expence and if anyone could advise me how to correct the engine management warning light.
Regards, Gary
Gary, when you removed the rest of the precats after the collapse of one, did you clear out the remenants of the precat material that had fallen down on the cat?
As for them saying you need to replace the pre-cats, well sorry to say it but thats b****x. The precats were only put in so that the car could pass the stringant laws on emissions in california. Do not allow them to replace the pre-cats. If the main cat has not been cleaned properly then the chances are you may have damaged the engine. What sort of oil consumption do you have? if none then you may be lucky and it will at worse cost you a new main cat
Good Luck
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Gary, when you removed the rest of the precats after the collapse of one, did you clear out the remenants of the precat material that had fallen down on the cat?
As for them saying you need to replace the pre-cats, well sorry to say it but thats b****x. The precats were only put in so that the car could pass the stringant laws on emissions in california. Do not allow them to replace the pre-cats. If the main cat has not been cleaned properly then the chances are you may have damaged the engine. What sort of oil consumption do you have? if none then you may be lucky and it will at worse cost you a new main cat
Good Luck
Thanks for the reply, it seems Toyota have turned their back on me. The situation is my engine management light still comes back on and I am currently monitoring my oil consumption, I still dont know how to get rid of the warning light issue, can anyone help?.
The dealer told me my petrol consumption could increase as the engine management system would try to compensate for the imbalance the pre-cats have caused by not being in there. Once again, how can I clear the warning light issue, how have you folks who have decatted like me stopped the warning light from coming back on.
Quote from: "garystorey"Thanks for the reply, it seems Toyota have turned their back on me. The situation is my engine management light still comes back on and I am currently monitoring my oil consumption, I still dont know how to get rid of the warning light issue, can anyone help?.
Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. However you need to know what the error code is, really. It could be as simple as a dead O2 sensor - which means you'll clear it, but it'll come back on.
QuoteThe dealer told me my petrol consumption could increase as the engine management system would try to compensate for the imbalance the pre-cats have caused by not being in there. Once again, how can I clear the warning light issue, how have you folks who have decatted like me stopped the warning light from coming back on.
They are talking out of their backsides - sorry, but there's no other way of putting it.
To make this absolutely clear - removing the pre cats will
NOT cause the engine management light to come on in
ANY circumstances unless there is a legitimate problem with the O2 sensors themselves, wiring, or some other fault with your engine.
Removing the pre cats will NOT affect your fuel consumption in a negative way, in fact, the ECU won't even know they are missing UNLESS your MAIN cat is also knackered. That's because the pre cats are ONLY working for the first minute or so of engine start up, and are ONLY there for Euro III and US emissions standards which we (in the UK) do not go by - hence you'll also pass an MOT.
Right, anyway, back to the subject in hand.
Find out what error code you are actually getting (you'll have to either pay Toyota or see if there's someone local with a code reader you can borrow) and then let us know what that is - my money is that you have a knackered O2 sensor and Toyota are either a) being inept or b) trying to screw you out of a
lot of money.
You also need to make sure the main CAT is cleared of debris, in case it's that which is dead.
Regardless, you DO NOT need new pre cats. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances (there, can't make it any clearer than that s;) ;) s;) )
</Sermon, gets off soap box>
Maybe they've looked, seen no precats and think they've gone tits up as per other cases?
Quote from: "Bongo"Maybe they've looked, seen no precats and think they've gone tits up as per other cases?
Thanks for the promp reply guys, I recently had the check carried out at a cost of around £95 by the dealer. This is when they told me I needed to replace my 02 sensors, precats and exhaust (£1.3 to £1.5k). If they are wrong about the need to replace the latter items, do you think they may be wrong about the 02 sensors. If I just replace the 02 sensors do you think may will solve the problem. Are they normaly items which are kept on the dealers shelves and have you any idea of the cost.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "garystorey"Thanks for the reply, it seems Toyota have turned their back on me. The situation is my engine management light still comes back on and I am currently monitoring my oil consumption, I still dont know how to get rid of the warning light issue, can anyone help?.
Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. However you need to know what the error code is, really. It could be as simple as a dead O2 sensor - which means you'll clear it, but it'll come back on.
QuoteThe dealer told me my petrol consumption could increase as the engine management system would try to compensate for the imbalance the pre-cats have caused by not being in there. Once again, how can I clear the warning light issue, how have you folks who have decatted like me stopped the warning light from coming back on.
They are talking out of their backsides - sorry, but there's no other way of putting it.
To make this absolutely clear - removing the pre cats will NOT cause the engine management light to come on in ANY circumstances unless there is a legitimate problem with the O2 sensors themselves, wiring, or some other fault with your engine.
Removing the pre cats will NOT affect your fuel consumption in a negative way, in fact, the ECU won't even know they are missing UNLESS your MAIN cat is also knackered. That's because the pre cats are ONLY working for the first minute or so of engine start up, and are ONLY there for Euro III and US emissions standards which we (in the UK) do not go by - hence you'll also pass an MOT.
Right, anyway, back to the subject in hand.
Find out what error code you are actually getting (you'll have to either pay Toyota or see if there's someone local with a code reader you can borrow) and then let us know what that is - my money is that you have a knackered O2 sensor and Toyota are either a) being inept or b) trying to screw you out of a lot of money.
You also need to make sure the main CAT is cleared of debris, in case it's that which is dead.
Regardless, you DO NOT need new pre cats. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances (there, can't make it any clearer than that s;) ;) s;) )
</Sermon, gets off soap box>
Hello aronjb, its been some time in coming, but finaly I have the info I wanted. Firstly the dealer informs me that whilst Toyota will contribute an amount, I would still have around £1.4k to pay to correct the cat issue thier way. Your last post advised me to get the error code, it is P0420.
What do you think my next move should be.
P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
Quote from: "kanujunkie"P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
Aye - so, two options here really..
Either 1) The post-main-CAT O2 sensor isn't working properly, or
2) The main CAT is dead..
1) is only really easy to check if you can borrow someone elses sensor - but you'd likely be getting an O2 sensor failed error if that was the case anyway..
2) Makes me worry that other damage might be going on - but your best bet for a resolution would be to get a secondhand CAT off someone like Adam ("Jap GT300" on here - shoot him a PM and see if he has any)..
Quote from: "garystorey"Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "garystorey"Thanks for the reply, it seems Toyota have turned their back on me. The situation is my engine management light still comes back on and I am currently monitoring my oil consumption, I still dont know how to get rid of the warning light issue, can anyone help?.
Disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. However you need to know what the error code is, really. It could be as simple as a dead O2 sensor - which means you'll clear it, but it'll come back on.
QuoteThe dealer told me my petrol consumption could increase as the engine management system would try to compensate for the imbalance the pre-cats have caused by not being in there. Once again, how can I clear the warning light issue, how have you folks who have decatted like me stopped the warning light from coming back on.
They are talking out of their backsides - sorry, but there's no other way of putting it.
To make this absolutely clear - removing the pre cats will NOT cause the engine management light to come on in ANY circumstances unless there is a legitimate problem with the O2 sensors themselves, wiring, or some other fault with your engine.
Removing the pre cats will NOT affect your fuel consumption in a negative way, in fact, the ECU won't even know they are missing UNLESS your MAIN cat is also knackered. That's because the pre cats are ONLY working for the first minute or so of engine start up, and are ONLY there for Euro III and US emissions standards which we (in the UK) do not go by - hence you'll also pass an MOT.
Right, anyway, back to the subject in hand.
Find out what error code you are actually getting (you'll have to either pay Toyota or see if there's someone local with a code reader you can borrow) and then let us know what that is - my money is that you have a knackered O2 sensor and Toyota are either a) being inept or b) trying to screw you out of a lot of money.
You also need to make sure the main CAT is cleared of debris, in case it's that which is dead.
Regardless, you DO NOT need new pre cats. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances (there, can't make it any clearer than that s;) ;) s;) )
</Sermon, gets off soap box>
Hello aronjb, its been some time in coming, but finaly I have the info I wanted. Firstly the dealer informs me that whilst Toyota will contribute an amount, I would still have around £1.4k to pay to correct the cat issue thier way. Your last post advised me to get the error code, it is P0420.
What do you think my next move should be.
Once again thanks for your interest. I would like to try to resolve my problem using the most cost effective methods first(cheapest). I read on the forum that other owners had used an 02 sensor supplied by GENDAN AUTOMOTIVE PRODUCTS. It seems other than the fact I need to solder the sensor wires myself, there is no obvious difference to the sensor supplied by Toyota, and the cost is approx £35 each as opposed to £140 each.
Do you think this is the best way forward?
I will be contact Jap GT300 to enquire about a secondhand cat.
After recently buying a 2 reading all of this is quite worrying! I myself haven't a clue about the mechanics of a car but think I want to get the pre-cats removed. I live in Dudley, W-Mids anyone know where I can take mine to get them removed?? This is not a job I'm not even willing to attempt myself!!
Quote from: "jones380"Does anyone know where I can take mine to get them removed?
A regular shop will not do something like this, so you will have to find a friend of a friend who likes to work on cars.
I had my pre-cats removed from my 2005 MR2 at 10,000 miles as a part of installing a Hass II turbo, and sold them to a man with a 2001 who appears to have experianced pre-cat failure.
He rather suddenly lost all power (best guess was a chunk of pre-cat suddenly clogging his main cat). His engine super-heated and cooked a lot of the stuff around the exhaust. Being out of warrentee he had it taken to a local shop who gave hive a long list of heat damaged parts, but hope that the actual engine would survive.
He bought the entire exhaust removed from my car, from header to chrome tipped tailpipe. I never heard how well the repairs went.
My advice: don't just gut the pre-cats, remove them entirely and replace with a turbo.
Quote from: "shiftless"Quote from: "jones380"Does anyone know where I can take mine to get them removed?
A regular shop will not do something like this, so you will have to find a friend of a friend who likes to work on cars.
Actually, some people over here have managed to get either their local Toyota (ok,
one person managed that) or a back street garage place to do it for a reasonable sum s;) ;) s;)
(It's not illegal over here to do.. well.. pretty much anything to your car - no smog or CARB laws over here s;) ;) s;) )
Ok............. After reading in several places - the issues that some owners have had - with their pre-cats, going on to cause engine damage, and ultimately engine failure, as I love my MR2 - and have only had it for 5 months or so - hardly any driving in the summer yet with the roof down, I want to keep it. I love this car, and dont want any of the horror stories I have read to happen to me.
I would be very interested in speaking to someone pretty local to myself, who would be able to either complete the removal of the pre-cats for me - or alternatively, let me know if they have had this work completed at a garage etc.
Im an IT guy at heart, PC's not a problem, when it comes to car - air in tyres, water top ups, and checking oil levels, is about as far as my knowledge goes.
So - any one in the Gloucester area that could help me out ?
Willing to pay for the work to be done, dont expect a free-be :-) :-) :-)
s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
No one wants to rip me guts out s:-( :-( s:-(
Just to add that I'd be willing to travel and pay for mine to be done (East Anglia) if anyone has any ideas - eg. another pre-cat gutting meet or whatever.
Roo
Quote from: "Roo"Just to add that I'd be willing to travel and pay for mine to be done (East Anglia) if anyone has any ideas - eg. another pre-cat gutting meet or whatever.
Roo
Fraid Mark wont be doing anymore pre-cat gutting meets as he's run out of swear words to use s:( :( s:( , if someone else would like to host(airtools, large breaker bar and ramps req as a min) then perhaps another pre-cat meet will be done
That's fair enough - there are so many swear words you can use! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Plus it's others peoples' time and stuff, wouldn't expect them just to do it for me for free.
I'm going to try a local garage who I get on with and see if they can sort it. If not, have to reconsider what to do. Really would like to get rid of them though. Far too many horror stories on here for my liking! s:? :? s:?
Cheers
Roo
Quote from: "Roo"I'm going to try a local garage who I get on with and see if they can sort it. If not, have to reconsider what to do. Really would like to get rid of them though. Far too many horror stories on here for my liking! s:? :? s:?
Roo
If you have no joy, pop in and see me when your passing my way. I have access to a garage and equipment. Once the manifold is off it only takes 15 min to gut them.
Pete
Pete - Thanks very much for your offer. I've been to Mr T to get the 'manifold gaskets' as mentioned earlier in this thread. They have a car in at the mo with precat and engine failure s:( :( s:( Nearly got them to gut my precats for me, but wouldn't do so as it's not worth the risk if 'something goes wrong' (!)
Try the local garage over the weekend when I go back home, and see if I get on... Fingers crossed s:) :) s:)
Cheers
Roo
ok so now i'm panicking s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
my previous car was an adorable mgf with which i had the worry of the inevitable head gasket failure which did happen to me s:cry: :cry: s:cry: , so i thought lets go for a reliable and sexy car next a 'toyota ' a nice shiney red roadster which i love to bits s:P :P s:P
is it as inevitable for the precats to fail on my roadster as an hgf on an mg s:?: :?: s:?:
Ineveitable? Hmmm... I'd say yes, but that could happen at 15K miles or not until 200K miles, so it's a hrad question to answer.
Get them out and be sure, it's the only way. It's not that hard at all, and this is the best place to read how to do it.
Welcome, by the way! s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "saftmadred"ok so now i'm panicking s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
my previous car was an adorable mgf with which i had the worry of the inevitable head gasket failure which did happen to me s:cry: :cry: s:cry: , so i thought lets go for a reliable and sexy car next a 'toyota ' a nice shiney red roadster which i love to bits s:P :P s:P
is it as inevitable for the precats to fail on my roadster as an hgf on an mg s:?: :?: s:?:
Let's get one thing into perspective, Iin comparison to K-series Head gasket failure's, the pre-cat issue on the 1ZZ isn't even in the same ballpark... Its not even nearly as common.
The K series is a great engine, when its working. However its thirst for Head Gaskets is unbelievable.
thankyou for the very fast replies and the welcome s:D :D s:D , does anyone know of any garages with good roadster knowledge in the midlands s:?: :?: s:?: , i'm really not mechanicaly minded at all so it would be a disaster to even attempt this alone s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "saftmadred"thankyou for the very fast replies and the welcome s:D :D s:D , does anyone know of any garages with good roadster knowledge in the midlands s:?: :?: s:?: , i'm really not mechanicaly minded at all so it would be a disaster to even attempt this alone s:? :? s:?
You have pm s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
You know of somewhere Roo ?
C'mon, spill the beans.
QuoteKnow a couple of good places in Northants, the best being http://www.silverstoneperformance.co.uk/]Silverstone%20Performance - See the Silverstone Performance section of the forum too.
Also Rogue are good, but a bit of a trek for you.
this is what roo sent me (hope you don't mind roo)
Quote from: "saftmadred"Know a couple of good places in Northants, the best being [your=]http://www.silverstoneperformance.co.uk/]Silverstone Performance[/url] - See the Silverstone Performance section of the forum too.
Also Rogue are good, but a bit of a trek for you.
this is what roo sent me (hope you don't mind roo)
Nope, nothing a good search on here wouldn't have found anyway s;) ;) s;)
Cheers
Roo
Ref the removal of above where do you get the 22mm socket from to remove sensors.
regards
mutley 22
Quote from: "mutley 22"Ref the removal of above where do you get the 22mm socket from to remove sensors.
regards
mutley 22
and the search button provides
m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... gen+sensor (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2983&highlight=oxygen+sensor) m
Quote from: "mutley 22"Ref the removal of above where do you get the 22mm socket from to remove sensors.
regards
mutley 22
ebay
finally got the manifold off and the precats smashed to bits. however, 3 studs snapped, oh dear. Rang toyota and I was told that I can get the studs, but it will be 2 days. Is there any reason not to use normal bolts?
Want the car on the road asap. s:? :? s:?
temporarily, you should be fine, just be careful for the depth of the bolt
Cant you get some better less "sticky" bolts ?
Philster.
Quote from: "philster_d"Cant you get some better less "sticky" bolts ?
Philster.
????
less sticky???
"3 stuck bolts" i mean like stainless or rust proof or something
may not help as most of the bolts are heat sealed in. main reason i only say temporarily on the bolts is that the bolts will have disimilar expansion when they're heat soaked which could create problems if they're in long term
I'm thinking maybe I should order replacement bolts incase mine snap when my brother is taking the old rusted ones out.
Dan, as well as the obvious need for the new gaskets, I wish I'd just ordered the stud as well for both the maifold to head joint and the manifold to the main cat joint.
Much easier and less stressful if you've got everything that you need.
In hindsight I would have ordered everything that would possiably break. s:idea: :idea: s:idea:
Ding dong the pre cats are gone! s:D :D s:D
Next step powerflow on monday.
Then unichip in a week or 2.
Would never have known about the precat issue if it wasn't for the club, thanks for all of the advice from everyone.
Just had my precats removed today. The local mechanic i use did it for me for £90 and it took him around 3 1/2 hours. He siad the bolts were no problem at all?
My '2 has 40K on it and the left hand precat had started to crack but no disintegration had occured yet - so i consider myself lucky i got it done when i did.
In the words of robert palmer "some guys get all the luck"
Three studs snapped on mine and put it off the road for a day. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
whey hey s:D :D s:D i'm now pre cat free thanks to edward carters recommendation of an excellent garage in aldridge wasall and a very nice mechanic called bob
s:D :D s:D
Well I removed the pre-cats last weekend, no broken studs or sheared bolts so I was well happy s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Went to Mr 'T' today at Beadles in Gillingham Kent to try and get a manifold gasket - now here's the rub.
Because my car is an import obviously it didn't appear on their computer, so mr parts man ( who was obviously suffering pmt or a hangover ) couldn't decide which of the two types of gasket I required s:cry: :cry: s:cry: He asked me why I was taking the manifold off so I told him the story about pre - cats breaking up blah blah blah and he was having none of it.
He then took great pleasure in telling me the car would never pass an emisions test!!! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:? :? s:?
I know he is probably talking a load of 5h1t but can someone please re-assure me about this. Also does anyone know where I can buy these gaskets mail order - i'm not going back up there again - unhelpful or what.
Right lets get these suspension springs off :wink: Andi
it will pass fine, just give them teh part number, it doesn' matter wether they no teh car or not
yep what Mark says, the pre cats only control emissions in the first 5 mins or so from cold, once the main cat warms up it takes control of the emmisions. I firmly beleive that Mr.T's people can sometimes be as thick as 2 short planks, saying things without thinking s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Ok thanks very much, thats put my mind at ease.
I wanted to thank GSB for the info on how to remove the pre - cats its excelent. I would advise anyone who wishes to carry out this work to use the instructions on this forum. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
p.s. I f anyone in the Kent area is looking to remove pre- cats I am only too happy to help/advise, pm me. s:) :) s:)
Andi
No one in my neck of the woods then.
Several garages have refused to do this work.......
My 2 local Mr T's wont do it either.........
I wouldnt be able to do this myself, but am really worried about this. I dont think mine are damaged, as the car drives wonderfully, and doesnt use any oil at all, but I still want them out. I have a warranty on the car anyway, although not a Mr T one, and I have checked that this does actually cover engine failure - as long as its not through my own fault, in not caring for the car i.e driving with no oil in it :-) :-) :-)
Evening all - went back to Mr. T today and actually spoke to a guy at parts who was really helpful. Ive now ordered all the gaskets required for replacement after pre-cat removal as follows -
Gasket Manifold 1 off T17173-22010 £14.05
Gasket Exhaust 2 off T90917-06065 £2.76 each
Gasket Exhaust 1 off T17451-22060 £7.57
Don't forget to add VAT to this - it may be painful for a few gaskets but its much less painful than buying a new engine any day. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
You will probably find that most Toyota dealers have to order these in which takes 48-72 hours.
Just thought this may help some of you who are planning this work.
Bear in mind my car is a 2000 import (not sure if there are any differences with later or GB spec models ?) s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
As an aside I have come up with a design for a twin exit st. steel system (cat back) which exits just to the right hand side of the rear number plate.
Obviously the rear grille infill would have to be modified/ replaced and I plan a metal replacement grille. s:idea: :idea: s:idea: The exit pipes will be 76mm diameter and positioned one above the other as per VX220 (but better). s:D :D s:D Before I start playing with the welder does anyone know if there is a maximum height from the ground that an exhaust can be or envisage any probs?1?
Thanks
Andi s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
my apologies for going off topic. sounds interesting. are you planning on making these to sell? also ( s:cry: :cry: s:cry: shows TOTAL ignorance s:cry: :cry: s:cry: ) what does cat back mean?
Hi Nelix,
I will see how this turns out first, I have made a few systems in the past but only for my own vehicles. Watch this space!!
Cat back means from the catalytic converter backwards i.e. the last section of the exhaust if that makes sense. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Andi
yes thanks, good luck, and first bags if you go into production! s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "saftmadred"whey hey s:D :D s:D i'm now pre cat free thanks to edward carters recommendation of an excellent garage in aldridge wasall and a very nice mechanic called bob
s:D :D s:D
all ok then, thats at least 2 he has done now, be doing them with his eyes closed soon s:) :) s:)
Gutted mine on Good Friday... everything came off smoothly. s8) 8) s8)
Pre-cats were perfect (thank god)
hour and a half to remove the manifold.
half hour destroying the pre-cats.
half hour putting manifold back.
Cheers to everyone who's posted advice and tips on doing this...i feel like a great car has just got better. s:D :D s:D
Downside, while also changing the front pads and disks I found a screw stuck in one of my tyres. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
thik positive, good you found it, a high speed blow out would not be good
Quote from: "markiii"thik positive, good you found it, a high speed blow out would not be good
Too right as I experienced one of those many years ago and its a frightening experience to say the least s:? :? s:?
Had my precat removed yesterday s:D :D s:D
while my new engine is in the garage. the bloke removed mine for me...
it was so easy to do when the manifold was already out my car.
just did it with a screw driver/drill and washed, air blasted out.. in no time at all.
quality...
Removed the pre cats this morning, the only problem I had was heavy corrosion on the nuts and bolts, I soaked them in plus gas for about half an hour before starting, which did the trick. I took a gamble on re-using the gaskets and got away with it, no leaks. My only suggestion to anyone thinking of doing this job is to get your self 10mm, 12mm & 14mm 3/8 deep drive single hex sockets ( saves rounding of the nuts & bolts ). s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
just as a point for anyone that has them, DO NOT use bi-hex sockets, you will round them. As AJP says use hex sockets only
Hi all im new to forum and have joined as iam going to buy a roadster in the next couple of weeks, here is my prob having read these post iam now very worried about buying one, mainly due to the fact that iam not in any way mec minded, i live in the south east (near Stansted Airport) does anyone know of a place that removes the precat in or around that area?
Hi guys. New here, my joining being prompted after a conversation with a customer.
I work for a Toyota dealership(not tellin you which) in the service dept.
I was contacted by a customer who is presumably a member of mr2roc also, who asked about this apparent cat problem.
I thought Id a a bit to this thread, so Ive joined ya'll.
Ive been with Toyota for 4 1/2 years, and in that time Ive never seen or heard of a precat failure on the mr2 roadster model(fitted with 1.8vvti 1ZZ engine)
I checked all bulletins from TGB this morning and found non, I also checked product reports from dealers and found non.
There is a known problem with the 1ZZ engine with a piston and ring fault. Basically the oil drain holes in the piston are insufficient, causing them to clog, thus causing the oil control ring to also carbon up.
This leads to excessive oil consumption, and regardless of oil type(semi/full synthetic) this cannot be seen in the exhaust(thanks to the Cat!!)
This often leads to bore scuffing and wear as carbon builds up, and oil level falls(especially as owners usually have little idea of what to do with a dipstick!!) This has lead to some engines being rebuilt/replaced.
Theres now a modified short block assembly(and piston/ring set) to cure this.
I cant find any evidence of precat failure, and have never witnessed the same myself.
Guess that doesnt mean it doesnt exist tho.
Any further help I can be , let me know.
Anyway, thats my 20 cents worth
Rollazuki
Mr2's are prone to exhaust damage from rear end shunts. Ive seen several 'cosmetic' repairs done to them, and found the exhaust to have been damaged underneath, but ignored due to cost etc.
Thanks for the interesting comments. I've held off doing anything with the precats on my April 2005 car because, although there is clearly a link between precat breakup and bore wear, I'm not sufficiently convinced of teh sequence of events. However, there do seem to be reports of cars which exhibited some degredation of the precats, have had them removed, and the engine has continued to run without problem.
Quote from: "rollazuki"There is a known problem with the 1ZZ engine with a piston and ring fault. Basically the oil drain holes in the piston are insufficient, causing them to clog, thus causing the oil control ring to also carbon up.
I'm guessing that this problem may be more pronounced with some types of oil (and some driving styles?).
QuoteThis leads to excessive oil consumption, and regardless of oil type(semi/full synthetic) this cannot be seen in the exhaust(thanks to the Cat!!)
This often leads to bore scuffing and wear as carbon builds up, and oil level falls(especially as owners usually have little idea of what to do with a dipstick!!) This has lead to some engines being rebuilt/replaced.
Theres now a modified short block assembly(and piston/ring set) to cure this.
Can you determine whether/when these modified parts were used in production? Can we tell whether our cars were built with the modified parts?
Ill try to find out.....
As far as I can see, the oil makes little difference.
We use semi synth all the time, and have seen a.....'few'........zz engines go wrong. The pistons all show signs of the oil ring being carboned up, the oil return holes being blocked, and in most cases a lot of evidence of lacquering on the piston. The replacement pistons do have vastly different sized oil return holes.It seems to make no difference how its driven. Weve seen thrashed MR2's, pottered in Avensis etc. all with same symptoms. And non of them showed any smoke. Beware, smoke will not indicate an oil consumption fault. They all burned clear, even those doing 2 litres in 500 miles.........
Ill be honest as well, its such a good engine, that we've had em needing 3 litres of oil to top up(bear in mind the avensis holds 3.7l) and theyve run sweet as a nut after having the oil topped up. No rattles/knocks etc. Bloody good motor IMHO
OK, been checking. Seems the problem can apply to pretty much all the engines...... all the way thru to 3ZZ motors as in corolla and corolla verso, so appears that pretty much all MR2's can be affected.
The new piston is as follows. Instead of 4 oil drain holes, there are 8, with an oil drainage slit around the oil control ring groove.
This helps draining, and keeps the piston skirt cooler(apparently a problem with the early piston.
On some models(avensis etc) the sump has been enlarged to hold an extra litre of oil, inc a new dipstick. Not on the MR2, a lack of available space apparently. haha.
If this fault occurs, go see a dealer. Yes really. Even if outside the warranty age/miles, it'll be worth the trip..............................
s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
[/quote]Can you determine whether/when these modified parts were used in production? Can we tell whether our cars were built with the modified parts?[/quote]
if you can tell us from which serial number started to use different pistons would be great.There are lot of rumors about that issue
thanks
Dealer draws a blank there Im afraid
It would appear that the fault affects all zz motors(1 thru to 3)
as far as I can make out all MR2 models could be affected
I was afraid of that.
thanks anyway
what about my pre cat pic?
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i256/leon_in_uk/cat.jpg)
it has happened to 2 engines i have had... half the pre cat honeycomb was missing.
I think what he is saying Leon is that the precat issue is a symptom rather than a cause?
certainly looks like its missing dont it.
Toyota do recommend a cat check after the new block etc is fitted. Done electronically by means of a waveform scan of pre and post cat oxy sensors. The insinuation is that the excessive oil burning may damage the cat. Maybe thats the cause of your cat damage.
Did your car burn any oil Leon?
Was the engine light ever on?
did the engine light work?
was it tuned/filtered etc.
Quote from: "rollazuki"Toyota do recommend a cat check after the new block etc is fitted. Done electronically by means of a waveform scan of pre and post cat oxy sensors.
Sounds like a lot of work for something that's easier if you just undo a couple of bolts and look at it with your eyes...
yea but you have to take the manifold off completely to inspect the whole pre cat honeycomb!!
the oil light did not come on
nor did the engine light
i serviced the car 2 months before the damage
i didnt check the oil for 2 weeks and when i heard the diesel sound the dipstick was bone dry, so it did burn the oil...
Its hard to know what happened first aint it. Cat or oil loss?
I have seen first hand the worn/damaged pistons. (quite a few of em........) they DO show signs of the piston skirt being overheated, the oil control ring totally gummed up, and drain holes very much blocked. There has been no evidence of any wear and tear by any coarse particles such as a powdered cat.
The bore wear is often excessive, but generally smooth, not scored etc.
The only instances Ive seen where the pistons are scored appears to be carbon smeared up the side of the piston from the oil control ring area.
I cant believe there seem so many of you guys with problematic cats, when we havent seen any (honestly), not a one.
Quote from: "Ekona"Quote from: "rollazuki"Toyota do recommend a cat check after the new block etc is fitted. Done electronically by means of a waveform scan of pre and post cat oxy sensors.
Sounds like a lot of work for something that's easier if you just undo a couple of bolts and look at it with your eyes...
The matrix may also be intact still, but not performing efficiently due to the oil damage. Always safer to check the efficiency electronically.
Quote from: "rollazuki"Ill try to find out.....
Thanks for the info. You seem to be saying that the modified pistons have never been fitted in production?
QuoteIf this fault occurs, go see a dealer. Yes really. Even if outside the warranty age/miles, it'll be worth the trip..............................
I presume that a full Toyota service history is required, though?
Its really interesting to hear your comment Rollazuki - I had my precats taken out just after my MOT in Feb and they had just started to degrade - however i've had high oil consumption prior to that ever since owning the car - i'm getting around 1L to 600 miles at the moment (the car has done 43K and is a 51 plate) and as you mention i dont see a single puff of smoke out of the exhaust.
I'm pretty sure my symptoms would have caused the precats to break up further had i not had them removed.
I'm topping up the car on a weekly basis at the moment and apart from that it runs great. I'm assuming though if i continue i will knacker my main cat? - I'm probably going to get it looked at in the Winter when i'll use it a lot less - is it possible to clean up the existing pistons and replace rings etc or will it require a new shortblock to the new design?
i'm no legal buff, but if this is all true (and we have no reason to believe otherwise), then Toyota are selling an engine that has a design fault which will cause it to fail after xx,000 miles; surely they could be got on fit for purpose or something??
I mean, it must be perfectly reasonable these days to expect a brand new car to last at least 5/6yrs or 100,000 miles?? s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:? :? s:? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "jamesr1"i'm no legal buff, but if this is all true (and we have no reason to believe otherwise), then Toyota are selling an engine that has a design fault which will cause it to fail after xx,000 miles; surely they could be got on fit for purpose or something??
I mean, it must be perfectly reasonable these days to expect a brand new car to last at least 5/6yrs or 100,000 miles?? s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:? :? s:? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I suggested this once before (after the death of my first roadster from precat failure, when toyota mucked me about) and I actually sent a comprehensive email to watchdog, but never got any response. The trouble I had at the time was that nobody really seemed to care s:( :( s:(
I was just lucky that this forum existed and I knew the real problem with the car which allowed me to get my money back from the dealer.
Richie.
Quote from: "rollazuki"Theres now a modified short block assembly(and piston/ring set) to cure this.
Do you know exactly when Toyota started to supply modified engines s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "rollazuki"I checked all bulletins from TGB this morning and found non, I also checked product reports from dealers and found non.
Ignorance is not proof. Absence of proof is not proof. Come check across the pond and gaze in wide-eyed wonder at dozens of documented cases of pre-cats failure.
m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46 (http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46) m
There may be other forces involved causing the pre-cat matrix to break up but that
will kill the engine.
Factory Revisions06/2001 New S-belt Tensioner
11/2001 New Piston Rings & harmonic balancer
12/2001 New pistons
02/2002 New Longblock
04/2002 New oil pickup
06/2002 New Oil pump
07/2002 New Water pump
10/2002 New Cams.
At some point, probably in 2002, Toyota started using different engine designations such as 1ZZW75 instead of 1ZZ-FE. Its on a sticker on the block by the S-belt. Its my personal experience that a catless 1ZZW75 is a good engine.
QuoteAt some point, probably in 2002, Toyota started using different engine designations such as 1ZZW75 instead of 1ZZ-FE. Its on a sticker on the block by the S-belt.
My sticker says 1ZZW52Q??
Quote from: "jamesr1"i'm no legal buff, but if this is all true (and we have no reason to believe otherwise), then Toyota are selling an engine that has a design fault which will cause it to fail after xx,000 miles; surely they could be got on fit for purpose or something??
I mean, it must be perfectly reasonable these days to expect a brand new car to last at least 5/6yrs or 100,000 miles?? s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:? :? s:? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
The problem is that, as Rollazuki mentioned, it only affects a small % of cars, so it's not an inherent design problem with the car.
Also, Toyota would argue that the car was designed to be "fit for purpose" and these problems were unforeseen.
Surely if every car that (let's say) 2% of which had a problem that required it to returned to the dealer for repairs after, say, 60000 miles, was taken off the road the streets would be very quiet.
Quote from: "kire612002"QuoteAt some point, probably in 2002, Toyota started using different engine designations such as 1ZZW75 instead of 1ZZ-FE. Its on a sticker on the block by the S-belt.
My sticker says 1ZZW52Q??
What year is your car and is that a dealer swapped engine?
Mines a 2000 with a 2002 1ZZ.
I'm sure the designations have meaning - if only someone had a list.
Starting a poll over on SC. Please visit and post up.
m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32515 (http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32515) m
QuoteWhat year is your car and is that a dealer swapped engine?
02 license but according to its serial number it was manifactured oct 01.
i bought it 6 months earlier so cant be sure although its service history book doesnt show any engine swapping.
Quote from: "kire612002"QuoteAt some point, probably in 2002, Toyota started using different engine designations such as 1ZZW75 instead of 1ZZ-FE. Its on a sticker on the block by the S-belt.
My sticker says 1ZZW52Q??
... and mine says 1ZZW52EQ (2005 car).
Like I said, re older cars.....contact a dealer...............cant say no more..........
Quote from: "rollazuki"Its hard to know what happened first aint it. Cat or oil loss?
I have seen first hand the worn/damaged pistons. (quite a few of em........) they DO show signs of the piston skirt being overheated, the oil control ring totally gummed up, and drain holes very much blocked. There has been no evidence of any wear and tear by any coarse particles such as a powdered cat.
The bore wear is often excessive, but generally smooth, not scored etc.
The only instances Ive seen where the pistons are scored appears to be carbon smeared up the side of the piston from the oil control ring area.
I cant believe there seem so many of you guys with problematic cats, when we havent seen any (honestly), not a one.
you sound like a toyota employee who has a lot of experience, but to be honest that does not mean that you can guarantee to me that what you say is the case. By the sounds of it your looking for particles you can see with the naked eye. Were talking about microscopic particles that are invisible to the naked eye and only a laboritory test would answer that. without a test case to test under laboritory conditions you cant really say. Why also has every case weve seen, the precats have dissapeared and crumbled onto the main cat? Personally i think that thats the trigger and the load put upon the engine overworks it and that destroys the oil control side of the engine.
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Why also has every case weve seen, the precats have dissapeared and crumbled onto the main cat? Personally i think that thats the trigger and the load put upon the engine overworks it and that destroys the oil control side of the engine.
Thats not strictly true, Stu. In mines, my precats were gutted (whilst still totally intact i should add) and my engine failed not long after (unrelated to the precat gutting I should also add) due to excessive oil consumption drying out the big end. A stripdown of the old engine and measurement with a micrometer diagnosed that the bores were excessively worn, with no visible signs of scoring (but as you mention above its not always possible to detect without lab conditions)
I still think that one cause is that the excessive amounts of oil consumed eats the Precats and this is what causes them to break up thus worsening the problem by blocking the main cat. (probably closest to toyota's stance too)
I agree with everything else you've said above though, and lets face it, theres probably other things out there that cause the precats to fall apart (one explanation was resonance i believe?) and cause the "Typical" precat failure mosts owners experience.
but in most instances, it is impossible to say whether the oil consumption or cat failue is the mitigating factor seeing as one causes the other with these failures.
At least you can immunize against the possibility of one of these failures by removing the precats and help prevent the other with regular oil changes using premium oils.
Richie.
Quote from: "Richie"Thats not strictly true, Stu. In mines, my precats were gutted (whilst still totally intact i should add) and my engine failed not long after (unrelated to the precat gutting I should also add) due to excessive oil consumption drying out the big end. A stripdown of the old engine and measurement with a micrometer diagnosed that the bores were excessively worn, with no visible signs of scoring (but as you mention above its not always possible to detect without lab conditions)
I still think that one cause is that the excessive amounts of oil consumed eats the Precats and this is what causes them to break up thus worsening the problem by blocking the main cat. (probably closest to toyota's stance too)
Was your car 100% healthy before you removed the pre-cats?
Quote from: "Ekona"Was your car 100% healthy before you removed the pre-cats?
over the first 2 months (and 1500 miles), my car used no oil whatsoever.
I then had it serviced (when returned to me, the Oil level was well above "High") and over the remaining 4 months / 3500 miles, I used about 2l to keep it topped up in the middle of the scale. During this time, the oil never went below "Low" and i never filled it near "High"
The oil loss on my car was very quick and dramatic, ie my oil level was fine the morning the engine died, but about 70 miles on the clock later that day, the knocking developed and it took 2.5l of oil to being it back onto scale.
My engine showed no symptoms prior to this and even when it developed its knocking noise had no loss of power whatsoever.
(And yes, all precat was removed form my manifold - by visual inspection* then a high pressure flush)
How come?
*Within all possible limitations
I may have this completely wrong, but 2L of oil in 3500 miles?? and that was before you started experiencing issues?? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I'd have said that 1/2 a litre of oil every 800 miles or so was definately an issue, even if you weren't noticing any power loss or noises...? s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "jamesr1"I'd have said that 1/2 a litre of oil every 800 miles or so was definately an issue
Page 165 of your owners manual says that it is normal to consume oil, quoting a maximum consumption of 1.0l per 1,000 km or 600 miles.
I think our last Seat said this in the manual too, and I wouldn't mind betting that the manual for the current Seat says the same thing.
Now, it's up to you to decide whether this number is 'normal' for an engine, or has been researched and measured by experimentation by Toyota (or Seat for that matter), or whether it's simply 'a statement' that is there to protect the manufacturer in the event of a claim from a customer.
By this measure, your stated consumption is 'normal'. However, this sort of consumption:
Quote from: "Richie"70 miles on the clock later that day, the knocking developed and it took 2.5l of oil to being it back onto scale
is well outside of that quoted in the manual (approx. 21 litres per 600 miles s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ), so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you would have some grounds for speaking to Toyota about the problem.
Please note, usual disclaimers apply: I am not a lawyer, your mileage may vary etc. etc.
I agree with you james that it was a lot of oil to use, but was within specs and because I was checking the level once a week i never really thought about how much I'd had to put in until the engine failed and i had to take it into consideration.
However as stated for me to lose all of that oil over 70 miles that day was totally extreme so perhaps something just gave way as the first thing i knew about it was the knocking sound. The oil pressure light never even flickered once!
Luckily toyota honoured me in this instance and replaced the shortblock under warranty, so now I have a perfect engine again s:D :D s:D At the time of the repair, the car was just over 5 years old so I suppose I can't complain seeing as it was well out of warranty, my only gripe is that on my first roadster when it died of an actual precat failure toyota didn't want to know - at least their attitudes have changed (either that or helensburgh toyota is much better than arnold clark linwood toyota!)
Richie.
I know it's been a while since the last post, but I if you are going to do this then please bear in mind that catalytic converters contain platinum (or palladium). Platinum in your lungs is not a good thing, so wear a mask. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
FYI- durability testing for the EU is (or used to be) 100,000 km simulated on a bench engine using an accelerated aging cycle. Typically, the engine speed, exhaust temperature and load are varied to condense a lifetime of use into 100 hours- it does not simulate "real world" driving conditions, and especially not the vibration experienced by close coupled catalysts- this is tested using a hot vibration test. I am convinced the catalyst break-up issue can be traced back to a faulty batch of catalyst substrates (the honeycomb bit) because there is no way they would have used this design if the catalyst substrates had broken up in the test.
That's a huge batch of pre-cats Toyota bought then, considering we've seen them 'disappear' on model years '99-'03 s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I've had my 03 Roadster (23k) for nearly a year now.
MR T warranty now expired so I've been living with the nagging worry of the precat issue for a while.
Decided that no matter how small the risk - if the were out then there was no chance of them killing the engine. I looked around for garages to do the job - most places were quoting £120-£160.
I've done a fair bit of maintenance on my old cars (changing oil, brake pads, calipers etc) but nothing on the roadster so was a bit nervous about setting to my pride and joy with a hammer and chisel.
Well - after a few days of liberal plus-gas application (that stuff really is great) I've just managed to remove my manifold and gut the dreaded ceramic killers.
All in all it took around 3.5 hours and I'm pleased to say that all the bolts and studs came off without any problems. Well, except the cat to manifold studs - those boys were well and truly seized on.
After half an hour of straining with a breaker bar my father came up with an ingenious and thrifty solution.
Behold Wonder Tool! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/swallet/DSCN1019.jpg)
Say Hello To My Little Friend!
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/swallet/DSCN1020.jpg)
A 12v impact driver. Cost £5.99 from woolworths! I was highly sceptical at first but was soon proved wrong. One quick buzz with this baby and each of the three studs whizzed straight off.
Best £5.99 ever spent - who needs air tools!!!!?
BTW - My precats were in 100% condition - well until they felt the wrath of my lump hammer.
I can't seem to get my manifold off my engine. I've got the cat & silencer off and out the way, but the 5 nuts that hold it onto the engine don't want to move. I'm putting on plenty of WD40 and leaving overnight. I've even tried a 6-sided socket to reduce the likelyhood of rounding off the head (a star shaped one did start sliping and burring the nut) I don't want to snap the stud off as this would be very hard to fix without dropping out the engine.
I might have to just gut the precats and leave the manifold on, but I don't like the idea of this. I was thinking of getting a che's manifold on the GB and this would not be possible if I give up now.
I just don't want to do a half arsed job of it. Anyone have any advice of how to get these 5 nuts off? Is PlusGas much better than WD40 - is it worth trying? I've never even heard of it before this forum.
Thanks
Graeme
Plusgas is a million times better, as it's a proper penetrating oil. Get yourself some and try it, as those nuts usually aren't too bad.
Just been out to buy some plusgas and given it a quick spray. I'll let it try to penetrate overnight before it try undoing them as I can't really start putting it back together until I have a replacement main cat. Enid B has one to get rid of, he PM'd me about it so I PM'd him back and he's not replied yet. I'm gonna have to buy one from somewhere else soon 'cos my car is off the road until it is fixed and I don't have another mode of transport (apart from lifts from mates/family) s:( :( s:(
If I still can't get it off using the plusgas and my socket set, would it be worth trying something like this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Challenge-Xtreme-12v-Impact-Wrench-BRAND-NEW-CASED_W0QQitemZ190067141095QQihZ009QQcategoryZ30900QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190067141095) as simon did (above), or can i get the same effect using my own brute strengh. grrrr. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Graeme
Quote from: "garystorey"Around 4 weeks ago the car made a noise like someone had thrown something at a panel whilst passing. This was whilst I was accelerating, then a week or so later whilst reversing out of my garage, from cold I heard another mechanical sound.
This is exactly what happened to me. I was on my way home from work accelerating down a country road when I heard what sounded like a big stick hitting my passenger door/wing. I even pulled over to check the body over for marks, it was that loud. That must have been the precat going down into the main cat.
4 Days later, I started the car (which took a bit of persausion by me flooring the accelerator which is not normally neccesary) to get it out of the drive and it sounded a "mechanical" sound, kinda like a tapping. About 30-40 miles later, my main cat got completely blocked and I lost all power.
Are these noises common when the precat fails, or is it just a coincidence that both me and Gary had them?
Graeme - Did the plusgas do the trick?
If not I can't recommend those little 12v drivers enough. I was very pessimistic but it really did the trick - frrrumphhh! straight off. Use a good quality impact driver socket though or it'll chew the nut like a good un!
good luck! s:D :D s:D
All
Excellent info on this issue - have a used 2 from Mr T with 1years warranty but am definately planning on removing pre-cats at some time this year.
One question which I think has not been posed or answered in all I have read on the site:
The cleaning up of 'cat-bits' from manifold is recommended by high pressure water jet or air-line. Is this definately up to the job as I don't want to risk any fragments getting back into the engine i.e. the phrase 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' springs to mind! I don't want to create a problem where there isn't one already.
Is the cleaning up by air-line or jet wash as per the original post on this thread definately good enough, or has anyone found an alternative or effective method?
Cheers very much!
just used a hosepipe
done taht on around 30 of them now and no problems to date
I used ordinary hose-pipe, on both gush and squirt. So far so good!
The cat material doesn't seem to be "glued" to the inside of the manifold, so as long as the pieces are small enough to be washed out, they will be.
Not heard of any other method.
Quote from: "roger"gush and squirt.
Is that an age thing Roger s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
If you are that worried why not replace the whole thing with a Che or something similar, which will give you a little extra power.
Rob
Quote from: "FGRob"Quote from: "roger"gush and squirt.
Is that an age thing Roger s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
No comment
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "Graeme"If I still can't get it off using the plusgas and my socket set, would it be worth trying something like this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Challenge-Xtreme-12v-Impact-Wrench-BRAND-NEW-CASED_W0QQitemZ190067141095QQihZ009QQcategoryZ30900QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190067141095) as simon did (above), or can i get the same effect using my own brute strengh. grrrr. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Graeme
has anyone actually used that partucular model by chance?
m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Challenge-Xtreme- ... 0067141095 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Challenge-Xtreme-12v-Impact-Wrench-BRAND-NEW-CASED_W0QQitemZ190067141095QQihZ009QQcategoryZ30900QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190067141095) m
Well compressed air should work as well.. though you might succeed in creating a lovely dust-cloud in your garage with that method s:) :) s:)
Cheers guys
Sounds like there is enough experience behind the hose-pipe technique, I can now go ahead and squirt with confidence s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Hmmm - Just been reading this whole post ....Are there many people on here with older 2's that have done 40k/50k or more without any problems at all?
Mines 2002 with 22K miles but I feel like i'm driving a timebomb after reading this s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Cheers,
Mine were looked at when the turbo was fitted at just below 70K - they were fine!
Removed mine at 76k and they were A1.
Finally got round to removing the manifold last night on my year 2000 36,000 mile 2 (after soaking all fixings in oil for 3 days), and the cats both look A1, to my great relief. So yes they can survive intact!
They will be out tonight though and I shall definitely use water to wash out the manifold - the thought of all that dust if I use air, and what will be in it fills me with worries - I can`t hold my breath for that long!
Incidentally, I didn`t have a special O2 sensor removal socket, but used a 22mm ring spanner with no problem.
nicam
added;
Everything back together with no problems - used new gaskets (about £24, but feel that the block to manifold gasket could have been re-used, but would suggest that the manifold to flexible pipe gaskets are always replaced. Comparing the new and old, they crush to fit as you tighten the joint up so should be 1 use only.
Sounds a bit "throatier", but maybe thats wishful thinking!
I am about to attemp this procedure but are there any torque specs when reassembling? The exhaust manifold, headtsheild, and o2 sensor torque specs? If anyone has em let me know.
3 White Knuckles!!! Hehe
So no specs just as tight as possible?
O2 sensors - 44Nm (33lb/ft)
Manifold->head nuts - 44Nm (33lb/ft)
Cat->Manifold nuts - 62Nm (46lb/ft)
Looks like Manifold support->manifold is 49Nm (36lb/ft)
Manifold support->engine block is 37Nm (27lb/ft)
No torque specs on the heatshield bolts shown on the diagram, so it would be from the standard torque table - 25-30Nm should be more than adequate.
Manifold nuts have a spinning washer face and relatively low torque setting (37Nm/27ftlb).
Man to Cat are locknuts to between 62Nm/46ftlb, the man-cat stud bolts should be re-usable, but if you replace the old ones, the new ones go in at 43Nm/32ftlb.
Heatshield - whatever you can get away with.
O2s - nipped. Handy to Copaslip the thread too so you can get 'em out again s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
*edit - well, one of us is right s:wink: :wink: s:wink: *
Well at least we agreed on one set of specs s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I blame my copy of the BGB s;) ;) s;)
I'd agree on the O2 sensors - there is no need for them to be tight, just up enough so that the washer seals against the bung face or you'll never get the buggers out again s;) ;) s;)
I've been supplied with two different types of manifold nut by MrT for the '2 - one with the captive washer and one without - maybe that explains it.
Anyhoo, its barely a finger of fudge difference s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thanks I was actually installing Che's header. I just eyed the torqueing. I didnt get the specs in time, but seems like the install went well. I hear a minor air leak at the manifold head gasket. Should be an easy fix(need to torque it more). Went for a little test drive and it sounds great. My idle used to be rough at 600 and now it idles around 800. I blame the pre-cats for that.
Took me all day today but i am now pre-cat free!! s:D :D s:D
Also fitted a TEE twin exit exhaust at the same time s8) 8) s8)
Definately seems to pick up quicker imo.
I am told that TTE exhausts does not increase power so unlikely to be that? s:?: :?: s:?:
Hardest bit was remembering where everything went!! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
i will be doing after nct/mot in sept,what did you do to clean it up ,air hose or power wash ?
cheers
jay
use water to be sure
Quote from: "fifajay00"i will be doing after nct/mot in sept,what did you do to clean it up ,air hose or power wash ?
cheers
jay
Morning Jay,
Mark is right.
to be honest there was very little in the way of dirt or rubbish in the manifold to be honest. However, i used a narrow wheel cleaning brush and and hose pipe, (Under Pressure) to just scrub it out to be sure. Then blasted water down all the holes i could see and then dried it in the sun. Then had a good luck inside all the holes with a torch.
Hope that helps s:) :) s:)
Jamie
Today I decided to check the pre-cats, it was the first opportunity I had since my g/f got her car. Managed to get it onto a lift at my pop's garage and get the manifold off, I was quite pleased to see that the precats were in 100% perfect condition with no cracks or anything broken off. I soon fixed that with a large Barry Scott screwdriver ........... Bang, and the precats are gone s:P :P s:P
However, when I put everything back together and started the car it sounded ok and seemed to be normal for the first 5 mins ...... shortly after though, there seemed to be a bit of smoke rising from the engine. I'm hoping it's just unburnt oil or possibly WD40 (which I sprayed liberally around all bolts) burning up, but it didn't smell like that s:? :? s:? ........... I can't think of any other reason for smoke to appear after a manifold off/manifold on job which didn't involve any work in the actual engine. All bolts are tightened, o2 sensors back in proper place, etc. Anyone else ever had this after gutting the pre-cats?
Hi to all
having read all the posts relating to this pre cat issue could you please advise me
would all of you recomend this removal
I have a 04 so cant work out if its no longer a problem due to early failures, hoping that Toyota came up with a better pre cat for later models to stop this problem
only had my 2 for one week now and given I wont even park it next to another car so I dont get those nice dents given by twits that fling thier doors open without any care, I really dont want something like PC failure to happen
I do have a warranty from the Mr T dearlership but dont know wether to have it done now or when the warranty ends
as my experiance tells me warranties are just a piece of paper and no more
would value your comments
Teddy BB
I
Hi to all
having read all the posts relating to this pre cat issue could you please advise me
would all of you recomend this removal
I have a 04 so cant work out if its no longer a problem due to early failures, hoping that Toyota came up with a better pre cat for later models to stop this problem
only had my 2 for one week now and given I wont even park it next to another car so I dont get those nice dents given by twits that fling thier doors open without any care, I really dont want something like PC failure to happen
I do have a warranty from the Mr T dearlership but dont know wether to have it done now or when the warranty ends
as my experiance tells me warranties are just a piece of paper and no more
would value your comments
Teddy BB
I
I've got an 03 in mint condition and went through the same decision process when i got mine at the start of this year. It only had 10k on the clock and pre-cat failure was in my mind low risk due to the tweeks done by Toyota as part of the facelift upgrades, but for me it purely came down to not wanting to risk leaving them in.
Took them out myself without any major issues, got a slightly better exhaust note and a more freely flowing engine. Now wondering why I would have ever wanted to leave them in!
You have no doubt read all the info about them serving no purpose for the UK emissions leglislation and MOT, many people on here have also passed MOT's with no probs with them out.
Endless chicken/egg debates about if pre-cat failure causes cylinder oil seal issues or vice-versa. Again though, some may argue if the car is ok then don't try to fix what ain't broke, but for me it was just a matter of removing the potential risk.
Chance of failure is probably tiny and if you left them in you would probably be fine for the rest of the cars life.
Forums do attract people with problems and sometimes therefore paint a slightly biased picture.
The car in general is very reliable and well built, so an issue like this even with relatively low failure rates is always going to get thrown into the lime-light.
The decision is yours s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Andy.
forgot to mention, if you do decide to take them out, be very very careful not to cross-thread the mounting threads on the oxygen-sensors s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Thanks Andy
think you have just settled the debate
will have it done as soon as possible , as like you, would rather prevent than cure
will have a word with my garage as dont think it is something i can do
thanks for your advise
s:D :D s:D
No worries Bear
In case you didn't realise, there is a section on here for companies who do the removal:
m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11137 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11137) m
Hi all!
My name is Arthur, I'm from Latvia s:) :) s:)
I'm really sorry about my english grammar etc. but I just want to get simple answers to simple questions s:!: :!: s:!:
If I'm not wrong, there are 2 cats - precat and main cat! If I remove precat what will change, torque and rev will be better? If I remove main cat, what would go wrong... what happens with Lamda sensors and ECU?
In Latvia aren't strong emission laws etc. so I can make straight exhaust! But only I must be under 90db with the exhaust noise on 3Krp/m
In Latvia are aprox. 5-10 ZZW30 MR2's no one is making mods etc. so I am first in my country who wants to do something more with that car s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:) :) s:)
Thanks
Arthur
Had a nightmare!
2001 1ZZ, had to cut / grind off the upper and lower heatshield bolts with a Dremel, after 3 days of soaking with Plusgas. Every nut lossened bar one on the manifold (top left), which has now stripped completely. Currently trying to grind off enough of the nut to remove it without mutilating the stud too much....
Anyone have any good ideas on how to remove it? The stud is solid as well.....
s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "soulfreak"Hi all!
My name is Arthur, I'm from Latvia s:) :) s:)
I'm really sorry about my english grammar etc. but I just want to get simple answers to simple questions s:!: :!: s:!:
If I'm not wrong, there are 2 cats - precat and main cat! If I remove precat what will change, torque and rev will be better? If I remove main cat, what would go wrong... what happens with Lamda sensors and ECU?
In Latvia aren't strong emission laws etc. so I can make straight exhaust! But only I must be under 90db with the exhaust noise on 3Krp/m
In Latvia are aprox. 5-10 ZZW30 MR2's no one is making mods etc. so I am first in my country who wants to do something more with that car s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:) :) s:)
Thanks
Arthur
Hi Arthur, and welcome...looks like you have been forgotten!
Removing the precats (there are 2 of them) increases noise, and there might be a small change in performance, but nothing significant. Emissions (for UK testing purposes) aren't affected.
Removing the main cat (by putting in a de-cat pipe) will increase noise even further, to what level not sure. Fairly certain it will be above 90Db. Emissions will go up, of course. The new pipe should have a hole for the Lamba (O2), though it will be necessary to sort it since it reads emissions. This (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16094&highlight=decat) might give you an insight.
just to clarify for you Arthur, there are 3 cats. The system is in fact called Three Way Cat (TWC) which consists as Roger has said of 2 pre-cats and 1 main cat
as for the noise levels, your going to be pushing 100dB+ if you remove everything, Aarons 2 sound more like a spitfire at the moment and he still has minimal exhausts system, its deafening. As for the 3rd o2 sensor, that can be got rid of with a signal conditioner and resistor package but you need to keep the main ones although they can be reduced down to 1 with some spliceing and a resistor
Hello again s:) :) s:)
now I get my car from Germany after 2 month waiting s:) :) s:)
I already removed precat, there was only one s:? :? s:? and the engine soon be dead - dramaticaly burns oil! So I need to change piston rings! And the question is, which aftermarket rings will be better? TOY OEM rings is too expensive for me - 140pounds! s:roll: :roll: s:roll: Local Toyota dealer sent me price list of full replacement parts aprox 450pounds (gaskets, rings, cranckshaft bearings) but it's damn to expensive... in eBay these things I can get much more cheaper s:arrow: :arrow: s:arrow: m http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=33623 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260209404016&ih=016&category=33623) m
but how good they are?
Maybe someone can post some link to same problem?
an there is my MR2 s:arrow: :arrow: s:arrow: m http://www.burnout.lv/index.php?pg=40&album=35 (http://www.burnout.lv/index.php?pg=40&album=35) m
P.S. I'm sorry about offtoic in this thread, please admin move this post to right topic s:) :) s:)
thanks!
thats bad news arthur, i am sorry to hear that.
i hope you can fix the problem soon and for not much money
E
Quote from: "enid_b"thats bad news arthur, i am sorry to hear that.
i hope you can fix the problem soon and for not much money
E
Thanks enid_b s;) ;) s;) but I need a solution for these piston rings s:idea: :idea: s:idea: only then I can fix my engine s:) :) s:)
Just to post a positive reply on the topic of pre-cats:
My pre-cats were removed a couple of months ago - and my car was MOT'd last week at the local (ridiculously expensive last time I go there) Mr T.
Despite the poor service, the upside is that it passed MOT. s:P :P s:P
Don't think there's a list on the forum of how many cars have pre-cats out, and are passing MOTs - but mine did! So get them out!
Tim.
Sorry to burst your bubble - but a car having pre-cats out has never been an issue for MOT seen as they are not a requirement for emissions in this country - the ones who worry are those with down pipes and no main cat. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I realise that Liz (only needed for California, etc)!
But as andy and "Teddy BB" have mentioned in this thread, you are always sitting there on the fence (before you do it) - wondering if you're going to mess your emissions up by taking them out - despite the fact everyone on here tells you to take them out cos of the potential consequences.
It's more a "but Toyota have put them in, so should I really take them out cos MR2ROC says so" worry - that I had before I plucked up courage and got them removed.
The issue is that everyone always says that there are no issues, but no one had posted in this thread that they have had them out, and that they've passed their most recent MOT. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "tselwyn"The issue is that everyone always says that there are no issues, but no one had posted in this thread that they have had them out, and that they've passed their most recent MOT. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I have my precats out and i have passed my most recent mot.... 48 hours ago in fact. although they been out for 2-3 years and i have passed 2-3 mots since they have been out. no problems!!
Well thinking of getting a MR2 hence my first post.
Scary stuff and would be looking at a pre 2002 model to keep within budget. Will keep my ears to the ground for strange noises on test drive.
Just something that I thought might be useful but what sort of torque you supposed to do the bolts back up to??? Would be checking the pre cats as soon as I got one in order to make sure it was alright.
Hello and welcome to the ROC s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "Smithysmoo"Just something that I thought might be useful but what sort of torque you supposed to do the bolts back up to???
I'm sure its detailed somewhere but I can't find it s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Anyway, 5x block-manifold nuts are 27 ftlbs (which really isn't that much). And the mani-cat are 64 ftlbs I think.... but they'll be considerably tighter to get off!
Providing you go with new and genuine gaskets for reassembly you should be fine.
O2 sensors are officially 32 ftlbs, but a tight nip is plenty.
Heatshield bolts are academic, particularly if the old ones shear off! - without precats there's no real need to run with the heatshield.
Cheers buddy.... s:D :D s:D Now all I gotta do is find one that don't rattle and hope the precats are still in tact with an educated guess.
Well, finally done it on my 03 model! Bought a Che manifold and spent a lovely day, mainly tryng to remove the last nut from the main cat to the manifold (did I read somewhere that its a 2 hour job? 10.30am to 5.30pm with GP break in the middle of 2 hours). Excessive use of dremmel, drill, hammer & chisel eventually freed it! everything went back on ok and no left over nuts etc found. Only probem was that one of the threads in the Che was a different size from the original manifold, but thanks to my good buddy Dave (main mechanic in the op) we found a replacement in his box of bolts. Car started up fine (didnt bother disconnecting the battery to reset the sensors thingymebobwhotsit as told to by Che) phew.... now feel at peace with the world.
Precats were in excellent condition with no sign of degradation.
Left the top heat shield off so that I can check the manifold nuts next week-end. Just drove gently to work today so as not to blow anything, and also as my bloody back is killing me!
Just had a look... nice shiny manifold is now golden colour... still, it won't matter when the heat sheild is back on. Its not a problem leaving it off for a while is it? will only be doing my normal 30 mile round trip each day.
Thanks for all the info fellow members s:D :D s:D
Al
no probs running with it off. When I put my Che on I left the top part of the heat sheild off for good.
Jason
I've got a Che manifold and no heat shield...been running it like this for quite a while now as Ste (Spit) said I didnt really need it...its hiding in his garage somewhere lol
my cat has just been gutted!!!pre cat gone,no longer paranoid of every little noise!took me 8 hours to remove and get everything ready for refit.three bolts snapped on lower joint,had to dremmel all five manifold bolts and persuade with hamer,chisel and threats!1&1/2hr refit.
costs:
stainless nuts,bolts & washers=£10 approx(screwfix)
ring gaskets=£7(toyota)
dremmel=£40(b&q)
dremmel blades=£10(b&q)
peace of mind=priceless!!!!
I too joined the pre-cat-free club yesterday.
Having bout a Che header from ianrawlins, I spent a few hours trying to remove 2 of the three amigos. Eventually they decided that I was too cavalier and went all roundhead on me. Quick trip to the local tyre and exhaust centre where a nice man used his big blowtorch and got them off in about 5 minutes for free s:) :) s:)
The Che didn't line up with the engine brackets (mid-level bolts) or the bottom (for the three new amigos), so spent a while loosening everything until I got it all in. Tightening everything up led to 1 manifold nut (2nd from left) which has a pipe right across it - had to buy a 13mm spanner just to tighten it. Started her up, ROOOAAARR! Turned her off and tighted everything again - found one of the bottom nuts was still quite loose. Now all is quiet, relatively speaking, but definately louder than standard.
Also, the top heatshield wouldn't fit - I could put the sensors in and 1 bolt, or 4 bolts and 1 oxygen sensor.
So, overall I'd give the Che 7 out of 10. It does it's job, but the tolerances compared to the standard component aren't up to scratch. In a few days when the scabs have healed, I'll have forgotten all about the fitting and will enjoy all the noise along with my cat-free existance s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
So here goes it then!
Up on ramps, plusgas everywhere including me. Thought I would check the obvious thing first, are they still in there or would I be lucky and find that some kind soul had already completed the job for me. No such luck, off came the top heat shield with no problem at all. Out came the O2 sensors and sure enough the little blighters are still in there. Onwards and upwards, or downwards in my case.
Started with the obvious removal of the undertrays. Except thats where the first of two bolts have sheared off s:( :( s:( Thought that was the easy bit!
More plusgas everywhere now and will wait a few more days before attacking the manifold bolts and amigos. Whats the best way of dealing with the sheared bolts then guys? Drill them out and re-tap holes for new bolts? Is there any other way?
Will continue the saga as the job continues for the benefit of any other newbies out there who may follow in my tracks.
undertray bolts you might just wind out from above with some mole grips
but likely it will be drill and retap, or drill and cable tie instead
Ah the old cable tie trick s:D :D s:D I had forgotten I did that on a Passat I once owned when the guts were ripped off by something I ran over. It wasn't alive by the way!
So what am I to expect on the Amigos and the manifold then Markiii? Is plusgas going to shift them or will I be looking at major surgery shortly do you reckon?
if you p-lusgas well and doit with teh enginehot the 3 amigos should be ok
manifold depends on teh condition of teh nuts
Engine hot eh? Me and hot exhaust pipe usually means plenty of burning skin s:) :) s:) Would it not be better to leave the studs cold and heat the nuts to expand them or am I being far too scientific about this?
Thought I would buy a nut splitter and tap and die set on the sod's law principle that if I hadn't bought them everything would go pear shaped but now I have, I will have wasted my money cos I won't need them s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Let's see if good old sod's law works with reverse psychology!
I am hoping with the age of the car and the low mileage, that the bolts are going to give up without a fight. They all look in pretty good condition so here's hoping. That said, I thought that about the undertray s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Mr T has just rung to tell me the gaskets are in so there is no going back now, it's do or die today probably.
6 sided deep socket on a long extension and you shouldn;t get burnt, at least while working on teh 3 amigos :-) :-) :-)
I'd just like to add to the three amigo's discussion..
I was having a torrid time trying to get bolts undone (even with all manner of penetration fluid, potions and spells), and that was even before I touched the three amigos!
My next door neighbour saw what trouble I was having and lent me his breaker bar to see if it would help. Thinking the breaker bar would be abit OTT for such possibly delicate bolts I got the socket wrench on them, but not one of them would budge.
In the end, I decided what the hell, and put the breaker bar into action....and they squeeked free, piece'a'cake!
moral to my story - drench any troublesome bolts in penetrating fluid, leave for 5mins, make sure your socket fits perfectly, then carefully & slowly undo with a breaker bar - worked for me!
Good luck s:) :) s:)
oh yes you will need a breaker bar
How long? Is 6 feet enough s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Thought I would provide an update after much swearing.
Two of the three amigos are still my amigos having given in. One nut free, one stud free. The other is not my amigo however as he has done the Oliver Cromwell thing and gone all roundhead s:x :x s:x
Any views? Is the nut splitter the way to proceed now? It appears no amount of cursing is going to persuade him to give in.
Any other ideas out there?
irwin nut removers would be my next approach
you are though using a 6 sides socket not a 12?
6 sided. The one in the middle at the rear is the problem. The socket just chewed it to bits so it's completely round now.
Thanks for tip, not seen the Irwin device before. Have to go and source one.
Do you mean like this one?
m http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... t-grip-set (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/5-piece-bolt-grip-set) m
Irwin and LOTS of heat and then bang it on hard!
Or if that fails grind off head,drill through using small to large drill bits till you get a hole big enough for nut and bolt.2 of them bolts you can see on other side of flange i guessing it one of these if its the one that isnt drill and tap.
Irwin acquired so will have a go soon and let you know. PS thanks for all the support s:) :) s:)
It's the centre bolt so can see the other side btw
make sure you keep plusgassing and again do when hot, if youget a good grip but it's stuck fast chances are teh stud will snap
Now I know why the guy in the Mr T parts department was smiling when I ordered the gaskets s:) :) s:) Suspect he guessed what I was up to.
s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
You guys(gals - no idea which you are) are awesome. The third amigo is toast and the stud is intact!
Thank you Mr Irwin s:D :D s:D
s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
There's an MR2 exhaust manifold on my garage floor!
Thought I would report back that thanks to a new band of Amigos from Mr T and a lot of huffing and puffing (from me, not the exhaust) the whole thing is back together and operational again. s:D :D s:D
Thanks to everyone who helped with advice and tips. Would have been up the creek without a paddle. As it is I am now up the motorway without a pre-cat. Here's hoping it is plain sailing from now on.
Well I did my precats at the weekend after a sudden rattly noise started up from the exhaust.
I had to use a slightly different technique. Being 8 years old, the nuts holding the heat shields on were impossibly corroded - a 12mm socket just span on the bolts. The only way I could get them off was to hammer an 11mm socket on with a club hammer. That did the job on the top two shield-retaining bolts but the two further down did not have the clearance to get a hammer to. The only thing I could do was remove everything in the way. So off came the bumper, the rear lights, the exhaust and the rear cross member.
With room to swing the hammer, the heat shield was quickly off and the o2 sensors could be removed with a spanner rather than the 02 tool which I don't have.
Unfortunately the manifold bolts were equally corroded. However with all the clearance I could see that the manifold didn't actually have to come out to gut the cats.
That was the good news. The bad news was that one of my precats was totally missing s:shock: :shock: s:shock: the other one was perfect. When I shook the exhaust about, great big lumps of precat came out - that wouldn't have been doing the performance any good. and I hope was the cause of the rattle I'd heard. I only hope it hasn't already done engine damage.
It did take about 4 hours to do this way, but wasn't actually that complicated a job and can be done without special tools. If the cats have started to go, it allows you to get the debris out of the exhaust too.
Now I've just got to keep an eye on my oil level and keep the fingers crossed. s:? :? s:?
Cheers
Ben
if you guttted them with teh manifold in place I hope you blocked teh exhaust ports and washed everythingout throoughly otherwise you just created the problem you were trying to avoid
Quote from: "markiii"if you guttted them with the manifold in place I hope you blocked the exhaust ports and washed everythingout throoughly otherwise you just created the problem you were trying to avoid
Hmmm Well I didn't do anything to block the ports but I was careful to only push the debris downwards and I did clean it out throughly afterwards. Any dust I might have created pales into insignificance compared to the one entirely missing cat. Still I will be watching it very closely over the next few weeks.
QuoteI didn't do anything to block the ports but I was careful to only push the debris downwards
This is not a recommended procedure. No matter how corroded the bolts are, they must be removed and replaced with new.
More worrisome is the missing precat. We know where it is - it's firmly lodged in your main cat and is causing a restriction, which is causing oil to push against your rings. This is what causes precat failure death syndrome. At the very least you need to remove and clean your main cat, but the smart thing would be to replace it. There may still be time to dodge the bullet.
I did remove the cat and was able to shake a lot of ceramic debris out of it. But i fear I was too late anyway. Oil use seems to be significant and now an engine light has come on - presumably a sensor fault. s:( :( s:(
What's the cheapest solution to getting this resolved? I'm not interested in upgrading to a bigger or more powerful engine (it's my girlfriends car anyway). It's a 2000 model, so well outside the period of Toyota's replacement timescale.
Guys, I recently removed my precats... took all of 2 days to grind off the b*&&dy nuts. Recently the oxygen sensors have been playing up, i am getting a reading of P0141 Any suggestions? could i have damaged them while taking them out, i treated them like glass but are they that friagile?
I have noticed a nicer rooar when heavily accelerating since the removal, is this common... fair play its a really nice noise!
P0141 is the sensor heater malfunction on the one after the main cat - so you shouldn't have harmed that. It only checks the emmissions so no great problem.
And yes, no precats does produce a much nicer sound s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
emissions?! bummer!! will this effect its MOT??? ive got a new sensor ready to be fitted so ill pop it in tonight and hope that will solve it. i think it could be where i grinded the bolts off the cat - exhaust pipe and probably damaged the sensor in the process? ill keep you posted on the results of fitting the new one.
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:scared: :scared: s:scared:
just another thought (which could be crucial) is i keep getting a p0135 too, so could this mean the engine is running rich as the o2 sensor is dead, creating nore emissions causing code P0141? or is that a dead sensor rather than an incorrect reading?>
Replaced my manifold yesterday and it was a pig! Main problem was removing the top heat shield so I could get access to the manifold engine mounting studs because all the screws had corodded leaving no real head to put the socket onto. Ended up drilling the heads off and bending the heat shield out of the way to get in.
After that, it was fairly straight forward just needed a long bar to get the leverage to undo everything. I had already removed the pre-cats from a second hand manifold so armed with new gaskets it didn't take too long to get it all back together again. Ran out of time so haven't had chance to start her up and test for leaks yet, but keeping my fingers crossed!
With regards to heat shields, are they essential to put back on to prevent damage to bodywork etc? The lower one fitted to my manifold has corroded badly around one the mounting holes so is no longer fixed with the screw so may start to vibrate. Left it for now, but only option is too remove or replace with new. Any ideas on cost?
Dragging this up as the first post is VERY helpful.
My 2 has done just over 80k miles but I havent a clue whether its pre cats have already been removed (I'm hoping they have for my sake). It's a 2001 Y reg.
My sister in law bought a 2000 reg MR-S 4 years ago and hers WERENT removed, even at 60K miles!
How long do they normally expect to last??
Primarily, my question is, how exactly can I check them myself? I'll admit, being a woman, cars have never been my strong point or a source of interest, however since having my 2 I've made an effort to take time to find out things about how the car works and performs as well as the aesthetics of it. My partner and his dad are pretty good with cars and refuse to pay a garage for anything less than an MOT lol. His dad removed his sisters pre cats when she got her MRS but I'm hoping my partner and I can have a look, and if need be, remove them without having to take some of his precious time.
Does anyone have any pics of before/after and where/how I need to be looking to check their position and condition.
Many thanks all
This SEARCH facility really is handy! s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: I love this smiley.... RANDOM!
catkins - What you'll need to do is get hold of an oxygen sensor socket. It's dead easy to recognise, it looks like a deep spark plug socket, but with a section out of the side to allow the wire to poke out the side. When you get one, all will become clear s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Here's a piccy - (http://www.gendan.co.uk/images/stock/55540.jpg)
Then what you need to do is open your boot lid and you'll see your domed manifold heatshield directly infront of you. Coming out of each side of that is your oxygen sensors. Use your new socket to unscrew them, grab a torch and have a gander inside the manifold - you should see a white honeycomb intact. Replace the sensor and do the same for the otherside.
IF your white honeycomb is broken or there's a size'able hole in it, it tends to mean bad news.
A more comprehensive walkthrough with pictures is somewhere on the forum if you search, it's talked about often enough! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Thanks for that s:D :D s:D
Yeah I have done a bit of searching and found bits and bobs - all very handy!! I think my other half knows where he is looking so will try and do it this weekend.
I would hope and assume mine, a 2001 plate having done almost 90K, would have already had them removed. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I hope!
Unless the car has been owned by a previous club member it is highly unlikely the pre cats have been removed. However no need to panic as plenty of cars have done this mileage and higher with no problems. s:D :D s:D
However, be pro active and whip those bad boys out Clare.
Russ, don't even think about it....................... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Yeah, I bought mine with the best part of 90k miles on the clock. The owner hadn't a clue when I asked about the precats, and sure enough when I checked, they hadn't been taken out.
2 years later, I don't seem to be doing too badly s8) 8) s8)
I removed the pre-cats on my lasses 05 plate 2 on monday.....I'd checked them when she got the car 5 months ago, they looked tiptop but having read all the info on here I was always gonna remove them soon as I got 5 mins.
My mate has a garage and gave me use of a ramp for an hour.......top heat shield bolts had to be removed with the grinder, everything alse was a doddle.....the 3 amigos came out no trouble at all....I'd taken the precaution of having new ones just in case but didn't need them.....plenty of plus-gas before hand did the trick.
The cats were still in excellent condition, no signs of degradation.....the car has 42k on.
I completely removed the top heat shield bolts from the manifold and welded new bolts in place....new manifold/head gasket and 2 new manifold/downpipe gaskets...all boxed back up....job's a good un. s:D :D s:D
Thanks for posting the "how to". s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "ad_car_08"catkins - What you'll need to do is get hold of an oxygen sensor socket. It's dead easy to recognise, it looks like a deep spark plug socket, but with a section out of the side to allow the wire to poke out the side. When you get one, all will become clear s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Here's a piccy - (http://www.gendan.co.uk/images/stock/55540.jpg)
Then what you need to do is open your boot lid and you'll see your domed manifold heatshield directly infront of you. Coming out of each side of that is your oxygen sensors. Use your new socket to unscrew them, grab a torch and have a gander inside the manifold - you should see a white honeycomb intact. Replace the sensor and do the same for the otherside.
IF your white honeycomb is broken or there's a size'able hole in it, it tends to mean bad news.
A more comprehensive walkthrough with pictures is somewhere on the forum if you search, it's talked about often enough! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Thanks for this info. Just a question though. Is the oxygen sensor likely to break if I try removing it? I've had it break on my Punto when the garage went to replace a section of my exhaust and it ended up costing me an extra £70 to have it fixed. OR, might the manifold bolts corroded and therefore likely to shear?
eurgh.... my partner reckons it "sounds like a nightmare" and we are more worried about other things around it breaking in the process of looking and potentially removing the precats. My girl has had three previous owners, all female, and by the sounds of it from the people I bought it from, all unlikely to have been club members. So its highly likely the buggers are still there.
just gutted mine (2000 W with 98k miles) will do a more detailed post in due course.
QuoteIs the oxygen sensor likely to break if I try removing it?
No. Perhaps the one on your fiat was more exposed to road salt and had therefore corroded solid. the sensors on the '2' are fairly well protected from the elements.
QuoteOR, might the manifold bolts corroded and therefore likely to shear?
Given the age of your car it is possible that one or more of the manifold to cat bolts will be awkward to remove.
Quoteeurgh.... my partner reckons it "sounds like a nightmare"
Even for someone with reasonable mechanical aptitude who has access to a decent range of tools, it can still be a bit of a hassle I would agree, but nothing like the hassle of what might happen if you leave them in.
The idea of having to spend a grand on a new engine for a car I've barely driven s:scared: :scared: s:scared: was my idea of a nightmare!!!
Thanks very much for the reply.
I do appreciate that the hassle of the checking, even if they are not there, is less hassle and expense than risking it!! Just wanted to check really before we went ahead with it, thinking we could do it in a few hours and be on. I can't be without a car as I travel a lot with work so the thought of something breaking and me having to arrange to get to a garage is more what Im worried about in the short term.
I guess we will have to put a date in our diaries to do it on a Saturday morning and when we are not busy on the Monday (and that I have just been paid s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) so that if anything does need more time and expense, it's not going to be a panic job.
PIcs would be greatly appreciated. It looks like the pics on the first post of this thread dont work any more s:? :? s:?
took some pics, will upload in the next few days.
First things first, buy the socket, you can get one here:
m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DRAPER-55540-LAMB ... 1098wt_706 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DRAPER-55540-LAMBDA-OXYGEN-SENSOR-SOCKET-22MM-3-8-/310210493843?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4839fc7d93#ht_1098wt_706) m
and if you're very lucky you wont see any white mesh (the precats) when you shine a torch down the holes.
On the assumption that they are still there (and given that unlike me you don't have the use of another car) I strongly suggest that you either get a second hand manifold or go for a new 'che' manifold. This is because I found that easily the worst part of the job was not getting the manifold off the car, but preparing the manifold for re-use (specifically replacing the 3 mani to cat studs, as none were re-usable on my manifold).
Say you go the s/h manifold route - then obviously any time you may need to spend prepping it (i.e knocking out the pre-cats and /or replacing mani to cat studs) can be done at your leisure without interfering with you using the car. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
But if you do it that way you need 2 gaskets
er, I count 3 actually (2 mani to cat and 1 mani to engine) s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
But yes, I recognise she would need to buy a new engine side gasket, but presumably this would cost alot less than the manifold anyway (new or s/h). She said she needs her car, whereas mines just an occasional toy so I could put up with the hours of swearing at my ugly stock manifold.
To be fair though, i would have got there quicker with a mains drill instead of my battery powered crap 'n' decker that lasted about 15 mins between charges................ s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Cheers guys. I'm hoping this is going to make more sense to my other half than me (he is the one doing it, I will be observing and offering help where required because I'm no car expert! lol!)
I changed an o2 sensor yesterday after engine management threw up a p0135. I noticed my pre cats are still in and thankfully intact.
I have a 52 plate on 86k, My engine never Ever misses a beat. Its run on Magnatec, rarely needs top up.
However I have ordered a new manifold now and it will be on next weekend:)
Just posting this to show that not all engines with pre cats still in are doomed. I have taken all advice and opinions from threads relating to pre cats, and have always been a little worried about my car regarding this. Gladly I have never experienced any problems of that nature;)
Bet you didn't check from the bottom though
Ps magnetic is awful stuff
I didn't feel the need to check the bottom. I'd always 'assumed' my pre cats weren't there, as soon as I confirmed they were still in, I ordered the manifold to replace it s;) ;) s;)
I'll let you know what the condition of the pre cats are this week once its been swapped:)
Hi,
Im sure this has been answered before somewhere so sorry for the repeat but I'm planning a pre car gutting session this weekend and wondered if i will need a new manifold gasket? If so, i better get it ordered now before i start the job and cant finish it!
Thanks
Mike.
if you plan on doing it i would at least get the two crush gaskets on the bottom as they dont like to be reused that much.
Done mine today, took me about 3 hours all in. Couldn't get the gaskets from Toyota for over a week so reused the existing plus some paste. All my exhaust bolts were manageable, had soaked then in penetrating fluid for the last couple of days. Lambdas came out fine too. Had real issues with the heatshield bolts now need replacements but my wallet won't be too worried about that
The precats were still in excellent condition on my 96k 2001. Oddly though the car appears to have had a replaceent engine or at least a replacement block as it had some markings on it like you see with scrapyard / rebuilt stuff. No idea why precats weren't removed as part of this but there you go they are now! Took a fair bit of effort to get then out of the manifold too which suprised me
Proof below! The stones were acquired after gutting BTW lol
(http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt79/rodenal/IMAG0354.jpg)
Hi all, As being a new owner and really lovin the car i want to do any preventative maint. i can. My car is in the USA and i was wondering if these pre-cats are on my vehicle? Thank you in advance if you know. Joe By the way it is a 2001
Hell yes. There in there because of your (USA) stringent emission control regulations. They didn't ever need to be in the UK spec two's!
Quote from: "smarty2072"Hell yes. There in there because of your (USA) stringent emission control regulations. They didn't ever need to be in the UK spec two's!
Not sure if it`s the whole USA I thought it was just California?
If not I`ll soon be corrected by someone more knowledgeable s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
I can't imagine they would have restricted it to just ones sold in California. If so why did they leave them in UK spec models?
Quote from: "smarty2072"I can't imagine they would have restricted it to just ones sold in California. If so why did they leave them in UK spec models?
You misunderstood me I know the precats are in all cars just not sure if they are required throughout the USA for emissions as I understood it just to be required for Caliifornian emissions reguilations,
corretc only cali
So out they will come! So how many cars have had this pre cat failure? Its hard for me to understand toyota engineering a part that could have such a failure. on my third toy. pick up. each one going well over 200k miles. no problems with any of them to speak of. well maybe the 1988 rusting big time! Thank you all. Cannot say how happy i am with my mr2. im 47 years old and smiling like in my go cart at 12 years old!
Quote from: "motojoe64"So out they will come! So how many cars have had this pre cat failure?
The stats are now a bit skewed because so many people have either taken them out or replaced the manifold, mostly I think quoting no damage to the precats.
Thanks for the fast responce. As i plan to keep the car for a long time would you recommend gutting or replacing the manifold? and what would be the one of choice if it gets replaced? I plan on installing the team moon cat back dual exhaust while at it. Thanks again!!
Only had my car '54' red edition with 26k for two week's but ordered a Che manifold , TTE exhaust and new gaskets, stud's etc.
Spoke to my Toyota dealer who said they could do the job for me (just had it in last saturday for a service) but kept saying are you sure you want to do this (don't know why) I said yes and as soon as my manifold arrive's (the other part's were ordered through the dealer) I would book it in.
Can't wait to get the work done and have piece of mind.
Mark.
Just went to the mechanic and asked him to open one of the o2 sensors.. I peeked inside and it all seems fine... ***RELIEFFFFFF*** Car's done 95k (02 reg)
I'm looking forward to do this de-cat thing real soon - as soon as I can get my hands on an o2 sensor socket. lol
Anyone knows where I could get them around North London?? My local Halfords (enfield retail park) dont have them, and online stores take 3-5 working days to dispatch.. This seems loooonggg....
Is there any way to remove the heat shield and then open the o2 sensor with an adjustable wrench???
Thanks folks
You can undo the four bolts which hold the heatshield in Place but it won't lift over the o2 sensors.
Damn, I couldnt even open one single bolt on top of the heat shield.. It's beem on WD40 since yesterday, and still didnt work...
Have been trying for the last 2 hours..
Spanner doesnt fit - maybe cuz of rust...
Next stop: Mechanic
the 4 bolts just very nicely. took a grinder to mine to get it off. as for the sensor dont use adjustable as it can round but without the shield any 22mm spanner will do.
I just had mine done... Surprisingly, the mechanic didnt take the o2 sensor out.. Thats how he did it:
Car on ramps.. Veery high s:P :P s:P
opened i think 3 or 4 bolts, which I think separates the main cat...move the cat away...
then from the bottom of the car, you could see the precat (which was still perfect honeycomb).. put a long screwdriver thing and break the damn thing...
Make sure u cover the other opening for the cat, as dust can go in...
All white stuff out, put the 4 bolts back and tighten the cat back...
Quote from: "neel35"I just had mine done... Surprisingly, the mechanic didnt take the o2 sensor out.. Thats how he did it:
Car on ramps.. Veery high s:P :P s:P
opened i think 3 or 4 bolts, which I think separates the main cat...move the cat away...
then from the bottom of the car, you could see the precat (which was still perfect honeycomb).. put a long screwdriver thing and break the damn thing...
Make sure u cover the other opening for the cat, as dust can go in...
All white stuff out, put the 4 bolts back and tighten the cat back...
That is the laziest method I have heard and may end up costing you a new engine if any particles left behind in the manifold make their way to the cylinders and score the bores as there is no way all the precat debris was cleaned out with this method. s:? :? s:?
not to mention teh risk of damaging an 02 sensor
I dunno, it depends how much effort he made to initially protect from the dust going up the way and when done to clean out the manifold. Still not going to be an ideal way to do it though and pretty risky.
I can imagine the average mechanic, with no real knowledge behind the need to remove the precat, would happily use compressed air to blow out any loose debris, and blow it into the cylinders through whichever valves are open at the time. Not a good idea.
Fine when it is off the car.
I wonder how much cr*p he breathed in while doing this.
Im going to try knocking some out from the top without taking the manifold off, just to see how feasible it is.
Remove main cat and sensors, run in water to damp down, knock out material from above, wash thru with water. Refit cat. Ive been looking for an endoscope to make sure all is clean first. Just bought one off fleabay, soon as it gets here Ill have a go on a spare car.
Easiest way is to be able to hit it from the bottom AND use the O2 sensor holes! With the amount of dust and bits etc that comes out, I thoroughly recommend always removing the manifold and doing it away from the car, followed by a good clean prior to refitting!!
Or Che, Zero, etc as an alternative is slightly easier!
Not removing the manifold sounds a bit of a nightmare happening, you will have exhaust valves open and it's obvious that material could find it's way into the cylinders imho. s:? :? s:?
Im hoping to attach a vacuum to the bottom of the manifold and run it full time while bashing out the stuff. Got to try it just for the experience.
If you were going to do it I'd actually make up a pipe of some sory and put the vacum into the o2 sensor hole - you won't remove much of the material from the top, needs a good bit of persuasion from the bottom.
I see your point. I just want to avoid breathing, or having that stuff on my skin or eyes. Just have to get a CSI suit n gogs/mask.
Tape hoover to O2 hole and have a go.
Is there any chance that precat removal will bring the engine management light on? I hear this will be an MoT fail next year. The thread on garages that will do it doesn't have anyone in South/Central London. Any recommendations?
Quote from: "Esinem"Is there any chance that precat removal will bring the engine management light on? I hear this will be an MoT fail next year. The thread on garages that will do it doesn't have anyone in South/Central London. Any recommendations?
EML light is an MOT fail but no pre-cat won't cause an MOT fail.
Removing the precat doesn't bring on the EML, unless you drop an O2 sensor in the process or the like s:D :D s:D
Thanks, Stargazer30. Good news.
hi everyone,
this is how you do the pre-cat removal........drive over to warrington
and have D!ck2ki remove them for you,just like i did and also picked me up a
set of mud-flaps.
TOPMAN,thanks again d!ck,enjoyed driving the 2 back today....... s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Sorry it took so long! I thought we were going strong at 90 mins till I found the stripped manifold/cat stud. Lesson to self, always check condition of studs before trying to refit manifold!
5 hours later, drilled out stud, fitted brand new one, Bobs your wassit!
Not to worry D!ck,had the experience of driving your monster van home and
back to you today......... s:) :) s:)
I bought my 2 on the 2nd Dec.
Read all about precats on this forum.
Put car up on ramps this morning at 10am.
Pre cat material now sitting in an old washing up bowl! s:D :D s:D SIMPLES!!
Honestly, found removing the bolts that attach the manifold to the cat section was the hardest bit.... very tight, needed a long wrench on em!
Apart from that it is a very straight forward procedure and I wouldn't pay a garage to do it if you are the slightest bit handy with the spanners and are not of a nervous disposition.
It is going back together tomorrow as I'm off to work now.... unless that is I replace the gaskets on it...???
I did mine on my 1st 2 at a bit over 30k miles, the 3 amigos (as you've stated) were very difficult to get off, the gaskets were still in a pretty good condition though and I reused them. When I fitted my turbo 15k later I did buy a head manifold-block gasket as the condition was a little worse by then. I'd say it depends on the condition of the current ones, think it was around £18 for that one alone.
Managed to remember to get my o2 sensors off today to check out the precats on the new car, still in perfect condition after 66k miles! Think I'll leave them in until I install the turbo as I don't use the car much and that will only be about 3 months so not worth the faff.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/azekiel/CarStuff/preCat.jpg)
I also had a little fish around in the rear nappy to clean it out and found the Flywheel Housing Cover s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Is it likely to get full of gunk/cause issues if I don't put it back on just yet?
Anyone have tips on removing the 14mm bolt hidden behind the manifold? What tools/extensions did you use?
Just removed my pre cats yesterday,what a releif.Kept reading all these threads and i was getting to the stage where i didn`t enjoy driving it anymore just in case it ******* the engine up.
The job was easier than i thought it would be,started at 10.am and was done around 2.30 ish all back together no warning lights and no grazed knuckles (bonus) anyone nervous about doing the job shouldn`t be as you get the satisfaction of knowing there out and that the job is done correctly.
Quote from: "Loop"Wonderful post from yours! I like your post very much.You tell about designing the MR2 Toyota went down the path of making it a Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV). I think also you should brief about addition facts (http://www.didyouknow-facts.com/learning-facts/10-addition-facts.html), I mean designing the MR2 Toyota facts.
Is it just me or has the ROC suddenly been targeted with spam posts from foreigners offering Moody Gold and learning courses s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:x :x s:x s:x :x s:x s:x :x s:x
hi guys,new to the forum and mr2 ownership i have a march 2002 model and i guess i need to remove the pre-cats? would it be ok to replace the manifold with a stainless steel one,i guess this wouldnt have the pre-cats in? thanks pete
Quote from: "Thorpeymr2"would it be ok to replace the manifold with a stainless steel one,i guess this wouldnt have the pre-cats in?
Yes. Many go for this option rather than breaking up the precats and cleaning out the original manifold.
thanks thats good to know s:) :) s:)
Hi I'm a new member on here. My girlfriend owns an 04' mr2, great car. I owned a mk2 and thought they would never improve on that. Anyways I removed the pre-cats today, relatively easy if your handy with your tool. The only thing I will mention be careful with the 3, 14mm nuts on the lower part of the pre-cat chamber. Use a hex socket if you can to prevent rounding the nut and as much wd-40 as you can. We shall wait and see what happens with the car from now on. The car was at 60,000miles and the cats were perfectly intact.
Quote from: "GSB"For those of you that dont know, when designing the MR2 Toyota went down the path of making it a Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV). Doing this meant adding a whole load of extra emmisons control equipment to the engine, chief among these being 2 additional catalytic convertors installed in the exhaust manifold. The theory behind it being that when starting from cold, these cats heat up and get working a lot faster therby reducing the emmisions that bit sooner.
The problem with these cats, is that in order to endure the very high temperatures in the manifold, they have to made of a ceramic material. This ceramic might be good with high temperatures, but is incredibly brittle and doesnt like vibration. The particles that do break free are also very-very hard, so if they manage to get into the cylinders they aren't going to be to friendly to the insides of yor engine...
I've been regularly inspecting my own precats for a while now, and they've always been in good condition, However after a recent check revealed that they were starting to deteriorate, I decided it was time they came out beofe they took my engine with them. The first signs of deterioration were noted at around 30,000 miles, 2000 miles after my previous inspection. 200 miles later, the situation had deteriorated even further. These cats go bad very-very quickly...
Heres how I removed the cats...
Note: Clearly, neither I nor MR2-ROC can condone you ripping lumps of emmisions control equipment out of your car. Its safe to say the the warranty on my manifold at least and probably my main cat as well have now been well and truly voided, so the same will go for you. Basically, if you decide to go down this route as I have, you're on your own... On the plus side, if its not in there, it cant break. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Toolkit required
Trolley Jack
Axle Stands
10mm spanner
10mm socket on 6" extesnion
12mm spanner
12mm socket and various extensions
14mm socket
Hammer
Vice
Long flat bladed screwdriver
High pressure water or air supply
Large vocabulary of swear words
In order to remove the precats, you first have to remove the exhaust manifold from the car, Care should be taken to apply penetrating oil to the various nuts and bolts some time before undoing them
1/ Jack up the rear of the car and place on axle stands.
2/ Remove the splash guard from under the rear bumper
3/ Remove 3 bolts from the forward splash guard to let it hang down.
4/ Remove the 3 14mm nuts that secure the main cat pipe to the manifold
In the engine bay;
5/ Using a 22mm O2 sensor socket, remove the 2 O2 sensors from the manifold.
6/ Remove the 4 bolts securing the manifold upper heat shield
7/ Remove the 2 bolts that secure the lower part of the manifold to the engine block. These are 'behind' the manifold and not readily visible. ! of them is 12mm, the other 14mm.
8/ Remove the 5 nuts securing the manifold to the cylinder head.
The manifold can now be lifted out of the top of the engine bay.
Decatting the precats...
Actually getting the precats out is pretty simple, here's what mine looked like from above and below before I started, you can see some of the degradation thats taken place in the first photo:
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat1.jpg)
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat2.jpg)
And here are the surgeons tools: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat8.jpg)
Removal is simply a case of attacking the precat matrix with hammer and screwdriver until its broken up into lumps small enough to be able to get them out through the lower exhaust port. The ceramic material gives up very easily, it only takes 1 or 2 taps on the screwdriver to do this... s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat5.jpg)
After digging around for a while you will also expose the glass fibre that surrounds and supports the cat matrix, this has to come out too.
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat4.jpg)
Once out you'll have a big pile of very useless, but rather expensive catalytic material left over. I beleive some places do recycle this stuff to reclaim the precious metal content, so if your now feeling guilty about your effect on the environment, this could be a way to ease your concience s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat6.jpg)
Once its all out, you'll be left with an empty manifiold like this;
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBprecat7.jpg)
You now need to clean it, as there is still an awful lot of potentially damaging dust and particles left inside. I would recommend high pressure water like a jet wash or an airline for this, as an chemical residue from solvent cleaners may have a damaging effect on the O2 sensors.
Once clean and dry, re-building is simple the reverse of the process used to take the manifold out in the first place.
Happily, I've not noticed any increase in noise level from removing these. Performance certainly isnt any worse, and in fact the car may have benefitted in the form of slightly increased torque, but I cant say for sure... What is certain though, is that the pre-cats are going to have a hard time damaging my engine from the workshop bin, and I'm a lot happier now that these ticking time bombs are not a problem...MOT tests wont be a problem, as I still have the main cat in place, which is more than capable of doing the work. I dont have a ULEV car anymore, but I do have one that with a bit of luck will last a bit longer.
Can any body please send me a link or pm with these photo's attached as they no longer seem to be avaialble , i appreciate it was a few years back but i am looking at removing my precats and would like to try and find some good pic's on how to do please if any one can help.
My 2003 has now only done 7k from new but looking at all the posts would like to get them out and still use the original manifold.
Thanks
Here (http://www.mr2spyder.net/spyderweb/index.php?/topic/1348-precat-removal/) is a very similar thing over on Spyderweb with pictures
Quote from: "StuC"Here (http://www.mr2spyder.net/spyderweb/index.php?/topic/1348-precat-removal/) is a very similar thing over on Spyderweb with pictures
Thanks mate superb just what i required,
Cheers again.
Removed my precats this morning all done and dusted in two hours, found them totally intact but then again have only done 7060 miles from new but can now have total peace of mind . Thanks for all help I found on this forum.
Cheers.
Glad to hear it went well. Any issues with any of the fixings during the removal or reinstallation?
None what's so ever mate , everything came off easily, suppose as its not been used a lot made it easier, oh apart from when i dropped one of the cat fixing bolts into the exhaust down pipe! Total cost £16.40 for new manifold gasket. Had replaced the other two less than 100 miles ago when I fitted the TTE twin exhaust.
So me and and my mechanic friend went to de-cat the thing today, and it turns out that a previous owner had already done it! Bit of a result, really. One of the 02 sockets was a bit of a pain to get off, as the last person to put it back on had apparently cross-threaded it. I am 99% certain the cats are not in there, but here are two pics if anybody feels like confirming it. (On the pre-de-cat pics I've seen, the cats are clearly visible near the top of the hole.) I also stuck a 7 inch screwdriver in there and had a good poke around and there was nothing laying around or on the sides so it appears to be all clear.
Now, just off to Toyota to get a refund on the parts I bough in case they were needed (bolts and gaskets)! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
m http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/leftgo.jpg/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/leftgo.jpg/) m
m http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/rightjh.jpg/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/rightjh.jpg/) m
Looks pretty empty to me! Result! :-) :-) :-)
Yeah, proper result, innit? I haven't really put the 2 through its paces yet, for fear of damaging the pre-cats. But now I know they're not there, well...
Good luck with returning the bolts etc, apparently if its parts they ordered in especially then Toyota UK (or Europe or Japan wherever they got them from) will not accept returns unless each individual item is valued at over £20 or £25? Unless that was just my Toyota dealer telling me that?
I'm sure you'll be able to offload them on here though, I sold my cylinder head studs and nuts to another member for face value, I threw in the postage I think?
Quote from: "AckersMR2"Good luck with returning the bolts etc, apparently if its parts they ordered in especially then Toyota UK (or Europe or Japan wherever they got them from) will not accept returns unless each individual item is valued at over £20 or £25? Unless that was just my Toyota dealer telling me that?
I'm sure you'll be able to offload them on here though, I sold my cylinder head studs and nuts to another member for face value, I threw in the postage I think?
+1, always newbies going through pre-cat removal pain on here! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
[Admin] Just so you know I now have the images that were originally attached to this ... I will be re-adding them in the near future. [/Admin]
Good stuff :-) :-) :-)
Quote from: "AckersMR2"Good luck with returning the bolts etc, apparently if its parts they ordered in especially then Toyota UK (or Europe or Japan wherever they got them from) will not accept returns unless each individual item is valued at over £20 or £25? Unless that was just my Toyota dealer telling me that?
I'm sure you'll be able to offload them on here though, I sold my cylinder head studs and nuts to another member for face value, I threw in the postage I think?
No problems here. s8) 8) s8)
Ok, chaps (& chapesses)...
I think Ive just about read almost all the threads I can find about my pre/cat removal.
Just got a couple of queries before i start.
So Ive started to plus gas the studs/nuts.
Im thinking of getting some replacement gaskets/nuts and studs in case there are any dramas as I will need to refix it all so i can drive back home on the bank holiday monday.
Question is I have come across 2 different part numbers for gaskets etc. and just want to check before i order them from Chris at CTP, please can you tell me exactly what i need to cover the worst case of all nuts / studs going.
17173-22010 - Manifold to Block gasket - £22.57
90917-06065 - Cat to Manifold 'donut' gasket (need 2) - £4.46 (£8.92)
90116-10146 - Studs (need 3) - £2.16 (£6.48)
90179-10070 - Nuts (need 3) - £2.05 (£6.15)
or?
Parts you will need:
One (1) Engine to Manifold Gasket: Part# 17173-0D020
Two (2) Manifold to Downpipe Gaskets: Part# 90080-43036
Parts that shouldn't be reused (even though some do):
Three (3) Manifold to Downpipe Nuts: Part# 90080-17187
Five (5) Engine to Manifold Nuts: Part# 90179-08228
Parts you won't need unless something goes wrong:
Five (5) Engine to Manifold Studs: Part# 90126-08037
Three (3) Manifold to Downpipe Studs: Part# 90116-10146
Also one final Q, all these parts plus my 02 socket and plus gas comes to about £60 and thats halfway towards just buying a new Jdmhonda manifold off fleabay... is there any noticeable performance or quality benefit between gutting my existing or spending the extra £60 on a new one which apparently comes with the gaskets nuts/studs etc. s:? :? s:?
ps looks like easier access to refill my gearbox oil at the same time as when the manifold is out!
Cheers in advance...
I'm working out what to do about my precats at the moment too. A couple of points...
The supplied gaskets with the manifolds are apparently a bit rubbish so it is recommended you still buy the Toyota ones. You'll also still need the tools/plusgas/studs/nuts. As such the actual cost difference will be the full £120.
I have been weighing it up and decided I'll still change the whole manifold when I can, just to get that tiny bit of performance (and shiny steel) instead of paying out for the bits just to fit the gutted one back on.
Also, you might want to consider some heat wrapping?
On the gearbox oil... I'm sure it might provide a bit more room but I managed to change mine this weekend without any hassle or removing bits. If you have time then go for it, but if a pesky nut eats in to your day it's easy enough to do the oil at a later date.
Quote from: "AndyM"I have been weighing it up and decided I'll still change the whole manifold when I can, just to get that tiny bit of performance (and shiny steel) instead of paying out for the bits just to fit the gutted one back on.
That's a very bad decision, my friend.
What you'll gain is a loss of funds and problems in future.
Quote from: "OldMan"That's a very bad decision, my friend.
What you'll gain is a loss of funds and problems in future.
Can you elaborate? Or do you mean that you think you think it's a bad decision that I'm not doing it immediately?
think the advice from old man is gut the existing manifold. new fleabay ones are made from cheaper materials and don't wear aswell, eg may crack.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"[Admin] Just so you know I now have the images that were originally attached to this ... I will be re-adding them in the near future. [/Admin]
Did you forget WK?
Just re-upped them and placed them in my original how to guide for posterity... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Pfff.... Ok so am mid removal.
Have lost a lot of skin of most knuckles, have sworn a lot and had a few childish tantrums. But finally upper and lower heat shields are off. All 5 manifold header nuts are off. 2 of my 3 Amigos have sheared through leaving half of them still in situ holding the manifold to the cat, and one of my 3 amigos is like doesn't look like the others? It looks like a bolt and now I've loosened it it just keeps turning but not actually coming out!?
So questions are how do I go about drilling out the sheared off amigos what size drill bit and will I damage the thread for my new bolts?
Also why is the, left hand side when lying under the car, amigo, a nut that just keeps turning and not coming out? Shall I just Dremel that off?
I read that this could either be a 2 hour or a 2 day job... Well it's turning into the latter and I need to get this bloody thing off gutted and back on by Monday so I can drive home!
Help appreciated!
Just realised how bad this is after googling how to remove sheared off bolts. It looks like im going to have to get a left handed drill bit? is this correct, do I have to drill them from the top or from under the car? here is a pic of the 2 sheared off bolts on my manifold
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l560/charl1ey/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01213_zps62196ee5.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/charl1ey/media/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01213_zps62196ee5.jpg.html)
And here's the 3rd Amigo on the left hand side, which doesn't look like the others? it isn't a nut but a bolt and its loosened off but just spinning round and not coming out, very odd. I think Im pretty screwed here, no pun intended and may need some professional help. also trying to do this on my back with my car on axle stands with my nose on the cat pipe isn't helping!
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l560/charl1ey/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01215_zps963cd930.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/charl1ey/media/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01215_zps963cd930.jpg.html)
and here are the 2 sheared off 'amigo's'... to be honest I think we should rename them Diablos, because they certainly aren't amigos!!!
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l560/charl1ey/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01216_zps36b4d565.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/charl1ey/media/City_of_Kingston-upon-Hull-20130505-01216_zps36b4d565.jpg.html)
Help!
s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
One reason why those replacement headers are a good idea. That last amigo looks like a bolt head, it's been replaced for some reason (it's been off before) there will be a nut the other end of it which.is why it's just spinning.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"One reason why those replacement headers are a good idea.
+1
If there's a nut and bolt in there then sounds like one of the bolts has been drilled out before and the original thread drilled out with it?
Quote from: "AckersMR2"Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"One reason why those replacement headers are a good idea.
+1
If there's a nut and bolt in there then sounds like one of the bolts has been drilled out before and the original thread drilled out with it?
If that is the case could it be that pre-cats have already been removed or has the op in question already checked to see if there... I could be misguided in my presumption here tho and stand to be corrected if so...
Oh dear, that does look bad. The only option that I can see is to cut off the head of the loose bolt, and the drill through the knackered remains of the sheared bolts and tap them out to a larger size. You could then drill the holes out on the cat flange and use bigger bolts.
Bit of a ball ache though, and I'd suggest that a replacement manifold would be a better bet if you can get one.
I have one, a brand new unit with all its studs intact that was removed the day I bought my long since sold '04 '2 from Barnet Toyota. But it's in Enfield, and I'm not. I could drive over in the morning and pick it up, but you'd then need to get to East London to get it from me.
My first post here as this is my first Mk 3 to own as I have been running a Mk2 3sgte Turbo for over 8 years
Just finished removing my pre cats from my 2000 model I bought recently, what a pain every bolt seized solid. It took a lot of heat on some bolts others had to be drilled or angle ground out. On inspection one precat was ok the other was on its way out not a moment too soon.
Anyone able to recommend a garage/mechanic in the Oxford/Reading area - who can do the decat job?
What sort of price are we talking about?
I just rang toyota and asked if they'd do mine. They said they'd never heard of this and not sure what it is exactly. I spoke to the head technician and he was also unsure but estimated it would take 3 hours and cost £280ish.
Is this correct!?
I am planning to buy an MR2 in the next couple of weeks, an of course I am concerned about the precats etc...
I guess many of the cars have had the engines replaced with the later version which apparently doesn not suffer from this catastrophic problem (according to Spyderchat). Anyone know if there is a quick way the check which engine is in the car via serial numbers?
Thanks,
JEZ
All Roadster engines had precats and the only way to tell if they have been removed is physically by removing the O2 sensors or if an aftermarket manifold is fitted which doesn't have precats.
Of course you could take it on trust from the seller!
Of more concern should be oil consumption, it's that which destroys the cats in the first place.
Edit
Sorry that's not what you asked.
You'll need a 2005 reg car to have a chance of having the latest pistons and it seems engine numbers alone won't neccessarily guarantee the latest ones.
Try the search bar, there's loads of related info.
Quote from: "Jandaw"You'll need a 2005 reg car to have a chance of having the latest pistons and it seems engine numbers alone won't neccessarily guarantee the latest ones.
Try the search bar, there's loads of related info.
OK thanks for that!
Reading about the damage that precats can do is very worrying, I will be getting mine removed by a local garage. How much would you say is a cheap price to get this done guys. I havent got a clue. Cheers for any help you can give.
Read a little more. Precats on there own don't do the damage. If they fail its because the engine is burning oil to an excess so the damage is already done.
Remove the precats certainly but more to the point, monitor your oil consumption.
With the precats out you may be able to live with high oil consumption and shouldn't have to worry about spontaneous engine failure.
You should monitor oil level religiously (every Sunday?) s:wink: :wink: s:wink: and if it's acceptable just relax and enjoy life!
Precast removal. I have just removed cats, when stripped I had to push mr2 forewords about 2ft, replaced manifold &everything else, started engine up and there was a large tapping noise from the engine, has any body had this trouble be fore. aki42
Spent some time this afternoon de-catting a replacement stock manifold - seems like it'll take ages when you start but you just need to get a bit brutal - hammering in a long screwdriver from the bottom and top alternately seemed to do the trick for me.
My car doesn't use oil and the existing pre cats are fine, but I'll be more confident knowing they're out and there's no risk. One little tap and crumbs of the stuff will fall out so it's easy to see how they could damage the engine if they start to break down.
Bizarrely I'm missing a heat shield bolt on one side from the existing manifold, and the 'new' one is missing the other side!
It's going into the garage for an Mot and service shortly so I'll get them to swap the manifolds over then.
Done mine this week.
2 hour job made 5 hours by bolts shearing under the car - not the easiest of places to get a drill.
109k miles on it, original exhaust still.
super lazy - just reused all the nuts/bolts and gaskets. no leaks.
pre-cat perfect , sharp and white squares - drilled out with a 20mm masonry bit and a large screw driver.
uses a fair amount of oil. has hardly any blow-by, but does look like it has 'some' oil leaks , as well as burning a bit when booted.
I have just bought my first 2003 MR2 Facelift Roadster with 77k on the clock and did not know about this Precat Manifold problem and now I am very worried!
When I purchased it I drove it 100 miles back to my home and it drove lovely although there was a little rattle at the top of the revs which the seller said was the exhaust and needed welding but did not know where!
He did have a new cat fitted just before he sold it but not the manifold.
Do you think it might be the cat breaking up in the manifold?
Is it a DIY job capable for someone who has already dropped the front Bumper and fitted new fog light, replaced the stock radio and repaired the electric aerial?
s:( :( s:(
Put it this way, gutting the pre-cats is no more difficult. The bolts are just bigger, tighter and more plentiful.
That's just it about (simple) car work. As long as you stay out of the engine block, there's little you can do wrong as long as you read up and tackle the job in a structured way.
Removing the pre-cats means taking the manifold off, so it means dismantling a fair few things from the engine bay and rear for access.
I'd say give it a go if you have the time and general affinity with a wrench and sockets.
I gave myself a day to remove pre-cats and install a TTE exhaust, I started at 9am and by 11.00 I was thoroughly twiddling my thumbs waiting for a delivery truck to come at around 13.00 with some bolts and a gasket.
By that time I had dismantled everything and removed the pre-cats. Never done it before. I set off installing a subwoofer and tinkering with a few other things.
Van came and within another 2hrs I had everything on, including subwoofer.
I had had a chat with my gobby neighbour, had lunch, watched TV and went out to get some wires as well.
So yeah..
Just do it haha
It's not that hard. One bit of advice. Get the nappies off and give the 3 amigos a soak in WD40 as well as the manifold nuts. Oh and the heatshield bolts. Well at least the ones you can see. If you do it a few times before tackling the job then everything should come apart a lot easier. The job itself is not that hard. It's just made hard when nuts and bolts don't want to budge.
WD40 is for the weak!
It's all about PlusGas.
PlusGas the crap out of every relevant bolt 2 days in advance. Takes 5 minutes, will save you hours.
I haven't used wd40 for anything other than removing stains off clothes and on door hinges since I got PlusGas
Thanks I'm going to give it a go but I am going to be prepared!
Does anyone know what bolts sizes I will need as I may as well replace them as a go?
Also which gaskets do I need?
Thanks again
- donut gasket (exhaust to cat) £17
- spring bolts (exhaust to cat) £11 each
- 3 amigo bolts (pre-cat to manifold) £2 each
- 5 manifold nuts £2 each
- 5 manifold Studs £5 each
- 2 heatshield bolts £2 each
Gasket for manifold to engine as well. Although people have re-used them without issues.
That's the full list of bolts for the exhaust
Thanks
where you getting those prices from?
They were the prices as quoted by Chris from the then-active CheapToyotaParts. They'll be slightly pricier from the dealer, but not by much.
I ended up replacing all of these bolts, but only because I had bought them and didn't want to waste them. I only really needed a couple new ones. The rest I sold onto people on here
I have just removed my manifold and got to work with a hammer and screwdriver to remove the cat which looked like it would not have been long before it broke up!!!
Is it possible that if a very small piece broke off it could pass through the engine without doing any damage?
Before I put the decatted manifold back on would it be OK to stick the hoover nozzle in the manifold outlets just to make sure its free from any debre that might have fallen in when I was removing the manifold?
Also hoover out the 2 pipes that go down to the main cat?
I put the high pressure hose on it s:) :) s:) But yes, hoover is perfectly safe. I went for pressure wash to really make sure it was cleared out
Sorry didn't make it very clear, I jet washed the inside of the manifold, I was talking about sticking the hoover nozzle in each of the 4 outlet holes on the block just in case something dropped in when I was removing the manifold!
Also hoover out the 2 pipes that go to main cat in case something dropped in there also.
Oh! No I wouldn't hoover the block to be honest. Nothing will be in there that can be hoovered. If you do do it, don't cover the entire port so that there's a locked vacuum in the port.
No harm vacuuming the exhaust I'd say
Quote from: "shnazzle"WD40 is for the weak!
It's all about PlusGas.
PlusGas the crap out of every relevant bolt 2 days in advance. Takes 5 minutes, will save you hours.
I haven't used wd40 for anything other than removing stains off clothes and on door hinges since I got PlusGas
Is plus gas really that much better? What makes it so superior to WD?
WD was never meant as a penetrative fluid. PlusGas was made for that purpose; to unstuck stuck bolts.
I've also noticed that PlusGas doesn't make such a mess and it also doesn't have such a god awful smell that seems to stick around for days.
For me, WD40 is good to clean areas where metal touches metal and it lubricates a bit too.
Try it and see
I've just bought an MR2 roadster on an 04 plate (facelift) and I have a couple of questions regarding the precats:
If I want to check the precats, which O2 sensor do I remove? Or is it both? Left or right when facing the engine from the back of the car?
Also, presumably I could just replace the precats with one of the de-catted pipes that are available online, rather than hacking out the ceramic material from the old one?
If so, does anyone have a link to a de-catted pipe that they have used and definitely fits OK?
And finally, can anyone on here reassure me that they have removed the precats and then passed a UK MOT?
Many thanks for any comments!
Quote from: "PhilzMR2"I've just bought an MR2 roadster on an 04 plate (facelift) and I have a couple of questions regarding the precats:
If I want to check the precats, which O2 sensor do I remove? Or is it both? Left or right when facing the engine from the back of the car?
Also, presumably I could just replace the precats with one of the de-catted pipes that are available online, rather than hacking out the ceramic material from the old one?
If so, does anyone have a link to a de-catted pipe that they have used and definitely fits OK?
And finally, can anyone on here reassure me that they have removed the precats and then passed a UK MOT?
Many thanks for any comments!
Hi Phil.
Have you had a look at this page? : l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11393 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11393) l
Check both o2 sensor holes, and yes you can remove it for an ebay manifold (the 89 pound one) with no issues in MOT.
Many many of us have passed MOTs since s:) :) s:)
Yep as above, remove both, check.
Buy the eBay mani.
I smashed mine through and the car went through MOT less than a month ago
Thanks for the comments. I think I will replace the mani rather than removing the material from the old one.
I haven't seen one on eBay for £89, other than one from the States with £30 postage. The going rate seems to be around £120
Obviously I will need new gaskets. Do I need sealer of some sort or are the gaskets sufficient on their own? I haven't played with exhaust manifolds before..
As you say, you will need new gaskets. The general consensus seems to be that OE/ Mr T ' s gasket should be used.
Some on here have reused the original gasket , others have tried the one supplied with the eBay manifold but the surest way is a new OE gasket. No sealant will be required with that gasket, nor should it be used on the head to manifold joint, you would be starting a problem for any future work.
You should also replace the manifold to head nuts as these are an ovoid section locking nut and are not designed for reuse.
A new, crush type gasket is also required between the bottom of the manifold and the main cat pipe work.
If you can have your 2 off the road for a few days I would suggest you take off all the parts you need to and then buy the gaskets and nuts that you need to replace. You may find that other items such as manifold to head studs will need replacement.
Invest in a can of Plus Gas and soak your nuts for as long as you can before you start!!
That's very helpful - thank you. s:) :) s:)
I recently de-catted the manifold on my MR2 but had one spare to play with. Most of the nuts seized so I had to drill about 5 of them out. The heat shield bolts are standard M8, which you drill out with a 6.5mm drill and then tap M8x1.5. However the '3 amigo' studs are metric fine (M10x1.25) and I struggled to find a tap for these.
One of the studs came out, so I went to Toyota and got a replacement which went straight in. The other 2 I drilled out with an 8.5mm drill to suit a normal M10x1.5 tap. I found some studs to suit and hey presto, a lovely spare de-catted manifold with all nuts and studs back in place.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/oh4fhf.jpg)
I'm going to spray the heatshields with hi-temp paint then fit all this lot on one fine weekend.
Good luck to others replacing these manifolds - it just takes time. Even if you have to drill out the studs, it only takes a couple of hours and about 5 drill bits!
By the way, if you do tap out the holes back to metric fine, an 11/32 inch drill bit is a good substitute for the recommended 8.8mm bit you would need for that size tap.
Have any of you had engine management light problems after this mod?
It is fairly/reasonably/not unheard of. That when you disturb the sensors. Remove and put back. That can throw a code. Delicate little things. Does not take much to upset them.
If you have a light. Most likely the sensor related. Irritating but not tragic. Have you got a code reader?
Many thanks
Yes it read Bank1 took it into local garage and they renewed two sensors, but 20 miles later light back on again
Did it show 2 codes?
What were the code(s)?
What did they replace with?
Bank 1 is only half the info
Bank 1 sensor 1?
Bank 1 sensor 2?
for clarity
Bank 1 Sensor 1 is the top, pre-cat sensor on the right hand side of the manifold (when you are standing at the back of the car looking forward with the engine in front of you)
DTC Codes:
P0135 Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction(Bank 1 Sensor 1),
P0130 Oxygen Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1Sensor 1)
P0133 Oxygen Sensor Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1 Sensor 1)
Bank 2 Sensor 1 is the top, pre-cat sensor on the left hand side of the manifold (when you are standing at the back of the car looking forward with the engine in front of you)
DTC Codes:
P0155 Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction(Bank 2 Sensor 1)
P0150 Oxygen Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
P0153 Oxygen Sensor Circuit Slow Response (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
Bank 1 Sensor 2 is the post cat sensor accessible from the bottom of the car just after the main cat. And by the way is a be-ach to get out.
DTC Codes:
P0141 Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction(Bank 1 Sensor 2)
P0136 Oxygen Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1 Sensor 2)
Please confirm I have got this right..
x5 Nuts Manifold to Cylinder Head 44NM
x3 Nuts Manifold to Cat 62NM
x2 Nuts Manifold Supprt to Engine Block 37NM
O2 Sensors 44NM
Please correct me if I am wrong!
One of the 3 studs (middle one) from the manifold to the cat snapped when undoing the nut,
Anyone know best was to get out broken stud and what size is the replacement I needs to put in?
I borrowed a stud extractor tool from one of the techys at work.
It was very similar to a drill, where you twist the collar and 3 prongs extend out and tighten. There's then a wrench fitment, or hex on the otherside, which you turn to unscrew the offending stud.
(http://www.lasertools.co.uk/items/xlarge/3986.jpg)
Works like a charm!!
Had a quick look in the engine bay while doing other work today.
The car still has the precats at 126k miles and I want them out. But, it looks as though one bolt is missing, and another appears to be snapped already (picture is of the manifold heat shield).
Am I on a hiding to nothing and what needs to be replaced please?
Thanks
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/Bossworld/dell/9E03A5B2-7018-4EC0-B2AB-643DF4D6CBE0_zpsxjwxc5eg.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Bossworld/media/dell/9E03A5B2-7018-4EC0-B2AB-643DF4D6CBE0_zpsxjwxc5eg.jpg.html)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/Bossworld/dell/73D642FF-2CD3-4D95-9829-5E212CE24E0D_zpsboftkckf.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Bossworld/media/dell/73D642FF-2CD3-4D95-9829-5E212CE24E0D_zpsboftkckf.jpg.html)
This query " slipped under the radar"!!
However, if you are still wondering - The two top fixings are through clearance holes and the fixing enters a thread formed in the manifold. With the two top fixings missing/ sheared it should still be possible to remove the heat shield by removing the two 02 sensors and the lower fixings of the heat shield.
An inspection of the pre cats can be made through the sensor holes when removed.
Plus Gas is your friend when doing this job.
When refitting the broken fixing can ground flat and drilled out and retapped and replacement M8 stainless steel hex head machine screws used.
Hy guys, i have a problem for a month, check engine light apears am obd says that is the o2 sensor.
By gutting the precat will it go ? the sensors are new.
What code?
Which sensors repalced?
I know this is an old thread, and sorry to resurrect it, but do you still have the pictures of the precat removal steps as need to do mine. Also, anyone know what OBD2 reader works with a year 2000 MR2 roadster? Many thanks.
Quote from: "tperry2x"I know this is an old thread, and sorry to resurrect it, but do you still have the pictures of the precat removal steps as need to do mine. Also, anyone know what OBD2 reader works with a year 2000 MR2 roadster? Many thanks.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170825/6702fcf9b49b8480e80565a708a9727e.png)
I use this one but any OBD2 should work as long as yours isn't an import.
You don't really need the photo stream for the pre cats, it's fairly self explanatory once you get the manifold off. Just smash them to bits with a hammer and long screwdriver or similar and make sure you get all the bits out.
There's wadding under the ceramic honeycomb, pull that out with long nose pliers. Be mindful of the threads for the O2 sensors and either blow or suck everything out and Bobs your Uncle!
Or splash out circa £120 on a new, stainless one [emoji2]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
m http://www.mr2oc.co.uk/forums/42/153897.html (http://www.mr2oc.co.uk/forums/42/153897.html) m
MR2OC has a thread with pics.
Sent from my Lenovo P2a42 using Tapatalk
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Brilliant. Thank you for the replies. Here's where I'm up to (is it OK to link to another bit on this forum) Hope so, sorry if not.
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63470&p=741949#p741949
I'm really having problems with it being a year 2000 non imported UK car. JOBD instead of OBD2 as far as I can tell? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "tperry2x"Brilliant. Thank you for the replies. Here's where I'm up to (is it OK to link to another bit on this forum) Hope so, sorry if not.
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63470&p=741949#p741949
I'm really having problems with it being a year 2000 non imported UK car. JOBD instead of OBD2 as far as I can tell? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Yes it`s fine s:D :D s:D
As long as you promise to keep doing it s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
:D I followed this process and knocked mine out when rebuilding my engine. Relatively straight forward to smash out, then pressure wash to remove the dust etc. No subsequent problems passing MoT
I have amended the first post in light of new information provided by Kevin from Zero Exhausts about the stock manifold and gutting the pre-cats and what that (theoretically, although reliably accurately) does to decrease low and mid range performance
Im sure the Zero exhaust guy is correct but I couldnt tell much of a difference between before and after in performance. Mind you apart from the noise I dont notice any performance difference between our fl cats knocked out with tte exhaust and the fl with cats and stock silencer. Maybe Im just not in tune enough to it.
The one I knocked the cats out of they were in perfect condition top and bottom at 68k miles.
Quote from: mdw on July 7, 2019, 19:28Im sure the Zero exhaust guy is correct but I couldnt tell much of a difference between before and after in performance. Mind you apart from the noise I dont notice any performance difference between our fl cats knocked out with tte exhaust and the fl with cats and stock silencer. Maybe Im just not in tune enough to it.
The one I knocked the cats out of they were in perfect condition top and bottom at 68k miles.
At the power levels the mr2 is running it'll damn near unnoticeable.
You'd probably notice a bigger difference in performance if you took the passenger seat out
Probably been said a hundred times but you should really use high pressure air line to blow away all last bit of debris in the nooks and crannies.
great thread, and I removed mine last week on a freshly acquired 2001 MR2. I was contemplating knocking the inners out, but I found a used stainless manifold for £50quid on Facebook Marketplace, one that just needed a new set of studs fitting and some new gaskets and job done (it even fitted with the OEM head guard). I drove it today and its fine - maybe a bit more oomph in the mid-range too (or could be my imagination, as it ran fine before too). The main thing is peace of mind the pre-cats won't disintegrate and damage the block now, and a nice little weight saving to boot too as the OEM one below weights quite a lot as you all probably realise now too :)
If you've still got the original you can cash it in for the precious metals in it.