Since going through the trauma of my 1zz magically making oil vanish, I bit the bullet and went for a 2zz swap. After 3000 mls of wonderful motoring, the engine sounded a bit ticky. Checked the oil, 1/4 full! Came to terms with the fact that I'd bought an oil burner. Changed my oil at 3500 mls. Checked the oil 500 mls later, 1/4 full!!! WTF!!
Questions:
1) Is the 2zz known for this?
2) Why is there no smoke at all? (obviously no precats, a sport cat you can see straight through!, no oily water, no oil on the ground)
3) What is my next step?
4) How is the wife going to take it?
In the immortal words of Rik Mayall, "Fate deals me blow after blow. Who'd be me? s:( :( s:( "
mine stays all the way full, what dip-stick did you use on your swap? Did you have a leak down test carried out when you bought the engine?
2zz can have same issues as the 1zz. fingers crossed its not ovalbore mate
Quote from: "Ilogik"mine stays all the way full, what dip-stick did you use on your swap? Did you have a leak down test carried out when you bought the engine?
Dipstick looks exactly the same as the 1zz. Is yours different? BTW, I took the car to a good garage just to make sure it wasn't me reading it wrong!
Got the engine from a breakers in London, cat D, supposedly done 29,000mls ... my bad s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "rbuckingham"2zz can have same issues as the 1zz. fingers crossed its not ovalbore mate
I've never read that. I've only read about the oil pump explosions.
A quote from another forum:
"if your car has the 2zz engine the pcv system is known for 'coking' up and causing a oil consumption issue , causes high crankcase pressure and pushes oil past the rings into the cylinders thus burning the oil and coking the engine"
Here is a little write up about the PCV systems :
m http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf (http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf) m
Does anyone know about these things or am I on a wind goose chase?
Did the installers do any checks on the engine prior or during the install? I would have thought it was a good idea unless you knew the accurate history of the car it came from.
Might be an idea to check that out before anything else and get a compression test done as well.
Quote from: "loadswine"Did the installers do any checks on the engine prior or during the install? I would have thought it was a good idea unless you knew the accurate history of the car it came from.
Might be an idea to check that out before anything else and get a compression test done as well.
Had a compression test done when I had the oil changed (500mls ago), 201, 202, 215 and 215.
Car was fine for the first 2-3000mls.
Yes, in hindsight, I would have every check done that was humanly possible. Unfortunately, I'm human and was desperate to get my car sorted when my 1zz engine became an oil addict after 9 years of absolutely trouble free motoring. s:( :( s:(
Sorry if I sound angry.
Might be worth checking the PCV out then, you never know, it might be that if it was okay before. Let's hope its something simple and cheap to fix.
Quote from: "dcod"A quote from another forum:
"if your car has the 2zz engine the pcv system is known for 'coking' up and causing a oil consumption issue , causes high crankcase pressure and pushes oil past the rings into the cylinders thus burning the oil and coking the engine"
Here is a little write up about the PCV systems :
m http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf (http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf) m
Does anyone know about these things or am I on a wind goose chase?
worth a look as it could save you a penny if it is.
Yeah, I'll try the cheap options first. Not going to rush into anything.
Drove home with my roof down in this glorious sunshine to take my mind off it. Worked for about 5 minutes then had to follow a car for the next 10 minutes with the reg OIL 916 !!! Aaaaargh!
Ooh, just found another one ... but this taks about the 1zz! Interresting ...
m http://www.paradiseplace.org.uk/Celica/c7PCV.htm (http://www.paradiseplace.org.uk/Celica/c7PCV.htm) m
very interesting you might have found a cause to why build up happens on the rings and causes ovalbore, which it turns makes the engine burn oil, which causes precat breakup and block mains and eats engines.
in fact i still got my old oil burner so ill check it and see if its blocked. if all the oil burners have these valves blocked and the non oil burners valves are ok we might have found the root of all probs and helps people find out which ones burn oil and which ones dont.
valve was very dirty but still working however did rattle more once clean.
I just hope they haven't sold you one of them sshit shit sshit ty recon'd units, did it have everything with it mate?
Interesting topic, mine will be off in the morning for a check!
Quote from: "rbuckingham"very interesting you might have found a cause to why build up happens on the rings and causes ovalbore, which it turns makes the engine burn oil, which causes precat breakup and block mains and eats engines.
in fact i still got my old oil burner so ill check it and see if its blocked. if all the oil burners have these valves blocked and the non oil burners valves are ok we might have found the root of all probs and helps people find out which ones burn oil and which ones dont.
I started thinking the same thing the more I read! Wasn't confident enough to say anything though.
If you Google it, some people recommend them to be replaced every 30k! Another guy bought a new one from Toyota for 3-$6 but can't believe it would be quite that cheap.
Quote from: "Mike_V"Interesting topic, mine will be off in the morning for a check!
Had a funny feeling I'd be seeing this s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "Ilogik"I just hope they haven't sold you one of them sshit shit sshit ty recon'd units, did it have everything with it mate?
Engine came with everything all together. You could see that it had been crudely cut out!
Quote from: "rbuckingham"valve was very dirty but still working however did rattle more once clean.
If dirty, it could have been sticking occasionally ...
Ahh ok then, weird its burning oil. I have a monkey wrench racing dipstick tube, which is an oem part, if they didn't use a stock part then they will have customised it. Maybe its too long, but if it was reading fine before its deffo burning oil.
Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "rbuckingham"valve was very dirty but still working however did rattle more once clean.
If dirty, it could have been sticking occasionally ...
yep it wasnt that bad of oil burner i just mainly wanted the new engine in s:D :D s:D
just got to see what others are like. melbee, ktm_rider's old car would be good to find out on theres condition as they are on high consumption
Just read this quick PCV valve test for those who may not have any tools available :
1. Start engine and allow to reach operating temperature.
2. Allow engine to stabalise at idle.
3. Pinch or block hose between PCV valve and vaccum source.
4. Engine should drop around 50 rpm. If engine does not change, check PCV valve and hoses for blockages.
I'll be checking my valve at the weekend. Weather permitting. Got to be worth giving a clean with brake/carb cleaner anyway. Do it the same time you do the MAF maybe. Good find s:D :D s:D
Maybe D1ckski could check a few of the ones he must have.
I can take em to bits, but dont know where to find the PCV. Ive got 3 here I can check if someone gives me a clue.
D!ck just go to the link, all will be clear.
Quote from: "dcod"Ooh, just found another one ... but this taks about the 1zz! Interresting ...
m http://www.paradiseplace.org.uk/Celica/c7PCV.htm (http://www.paradiseplace.org.uk/Celica/c7PCV.htm) m
Thanks Ian, Ill have a butchers.
I'll cheek mine later as I've had a new short block and rebuilt the top end myself. That said 3,500 miles since rebuild and not used a drop of oil yet.
it wasn't the engine from Nippon was it. Have seen quite a few poo boxes being sold on ebay. I got quite lucky, but there was a lot of junk around, making me think at the time that a 2zz swap was not as easy as people make out.
Quote from: "Ilogik"it wasn't the engine from Nippon was it. Have seen quite a few poo boxes being sold on ebay. I got quite lucky, but there was a lot of junk around, making me think at the time that a 2zz swap was not as easy as people make out.
Nippon? sorry but don't know what you mean. Is it a Japanese import company?
Just found a DIY guide to changing the PCV valve on a 2zz.
m http://www.diymytoyota.com/corolla/2zz- ... pcv-valve/ (http://www.diymytoyota.com/corolla/2zz-replace-pcv-valve/) m
Quote from: "iPap"I'll cheek mine later as I've had a new short block and rebuilt the top end myself. That said 3,500 miles since rebuild and not used a drop of oil yet.
One day I'll have enough money for a second car and be able do that sort of level of maintenence myself.
Are you a mechanic by trade? If not, good for you! Nice job. s:) :) s:)
Checked my PCV valve and it rattled like a baby. So back to pulling my hair out. s:( :( s:(
Quickly spoke to Rogue and they suggested vavle stem seal, piston etc. They said they would need to do tests such as a leak down test (as mentioned by Ilogik). They are now very busy as they are off to Silverstone from tomorrow to the 4th. I will probably book my car in with them to get it checked out at a later date.
On a more positive note, I've just been informally offered a job that's £6500 more than I'm currently on. s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Quote from: "rbuckingham"yep it wasnt that bad of oil burner i just mainly wanted the new engine in s:D :D s:D
just got to see what others are like. melbee, ktm_rider's old car would be good to find out on theres condition as they are on high consumption
I'd happily check but I wouldn't know what I was looking for or at!
I checked one today, seemed fine from a 95000 miler. Dont think its a burner though. Not even dirty.
Ill check KTM Riders old car tomorrow. Ill be stripping the engine and box out in the pm.
somebody mention me? s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
Im gonna check out yr PRV! Hope youve given it a good wash! s:) :) s:)
Read this tonite when i got in from work, just been out and cleaned it.
It was dirty, now rattles freely.
I hope this was the main reason for the high oil use. ( only when i drove it, when the missus uses it not so bad)
I will update in a week or so if any better.
Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "iPap"I'll cheek mine later as I've had a new short block and rebuilt the top end myself. That said 3,500 miles since rebuild and not used a drop of oil yet.
One day I'll have enough money for a second car and be able do that sort of level of maintenance myself.
Are you a mechanic by trade? If not, good for you! Nice job. s:) :) s:)
I had to take mine off the road for three weeks, luckily I have a bike.
I had my mechanic do the heavy work but I did the top end to save money as it was labour intensive. I helped him in my spare time as I lost my job at News Of The World when they shut down. I probably could have done it all if I had a ramp.
The only thing that was a problem was losing my job two weeks after buying all the new parts, totaling £1.5k before any labour. And since then, there was the coilovers and lots of other small bits to try and rid the car of the dreaded shakes/vibration at all speeds but... I can't cure it.
I've spent more money on this car than I paid for it and I still don't enjoy driving it like I should or did when I had a brand new one in 2000. I've got a minute buckle in a wheel and my new front disc is warped to a less than half a mm in 1000 miles so that needs replacing again. Then it's back to hunting down the vibration again. When will it end...
I hope yours sorts itself soon.
Sounds like your struggling there, ipap. Ive got some good discs and standard front wheels. 1 wheel plus pair of discs, £50 incl pnp. Any good?
Quote from: "iPap"The only thing that was a problem was losing my job two weeks after buying all the new parts, totaling £1.5k before any labour. And since then, there was the coilovers and lots of other small bits to try and rid the car of the dreaded shakes/vibration at all speeds but... I can't cure it.
I've spent more money on this car than I paid for it and I still don't enjoy driving it like I should or did when I had a brand new one in 2000. I've got a minute buckle in a wheel and my new front disc is warped to a less than half a mm in 1000 miles so that needs replacing again. Then it's back to hunting down the vibration again. When will it end...
I hope yours sorts itself soon.
Thanks mate. Checked steering UJ? Ball joints? Wheel bearings? Not a mechanic so I'm not much use really. Good luck to you though.
Quote from: "dick2ski"I'm gonna check out yr PRV! Hope youve given it a good wash! s:) :) s:)
PRV immaculate honest Guv, just the rest of the car that had seen better days.
I reckon it"ll be so clean you"ll be able to drink your afternoon coffee out of it s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "KTM_RIDER"PRV immaculate honest Guv, just the rest of the car that had seen better days.
I reckon it"ll be so clean you"ll be able to drink your afternoon coffee out of it s:) :) s:)
Doesn't seem to be a prime suspect for oil burning. However, I think the valve is certainly something that should be maintained for peace of mind especially as it is something that is so easy to do.
Still reading more about the PVC system and oil consumption. Found another article about specifies the pipe aswell as the valve. Just a warning that your valve may be fine but if there is a blockage in the pipe to it then it's still not going to work properly. Here is the simple test as mentioned earlier which is also mentioned in this article (but slightly different) :
1. Start engine and allow to reach operating temperature.
2. Allow engine to stabalise at idle.
3. Pinch or block hose between PCV valve and vaccum source.
4. Engine should drop around 50 rpm. If engine does not change, check PCV valve and hoses for blockages.
and from this article:
"If you have a tachometer, then set the motor at a smooth idle speed, take note of what the engine RPM is, next remove the hose from the ventilation valve, block up the hose with a suitable plug so its not sucking air, now check your tachometer, if the RPM has dropped by 50 RPM or more, then the crankcase ventilation system OK.
However if the RPM drops Less than 50 RPM, then I'd say it's properly partially blocked, may even be fully clogged up,
So it will need to be pulled apart and cleaned properly, a simple process, if it looks faulty ,then buy a new one
Don't forget to recheck it again, as the hose could be blocked as well, also the check the end of the hoses make sure there not sucking in air"
m http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Exces ... onsumption (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Excessive_Oil_Consumption) m
UPDATE
I've now done 500 more miles ... NO OBVIOUS OIL LOSS! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
All I did was clean my PCV valve which appeared to rattle ok but rattled a little more after cleaning.
I shall, of course, be continuing to monitor the situation.
UPDATE:
Had my oil changed (due to degredation), installed new PCV valve (peace of mind) and had my PCV hose checked for blockages. When having this done, it appears that I have had some oil 'weep' from my sump and head gasket! s:( :( s:(
QUESTION:
Is there any way that crankcase pressure could cause oil to be pushed through the head gasket? Sump I can understand but head gasket? s:? :? s:?
QuoteAt higher engine speeds, blowby gases increase crankcase pressure that can cause oil leakage from sealed engine surfaces
m http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf (http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf) m
Are you sure its the head gasket, the timing chain tensioner cover is a prime candidate for a bit of seepage. See a lot of those let oil by.
Quote from: "loadswine"Are you sure its the head gasket, the timing chain tensioner cover is a prime candidate for a bit of seepage. See a lot of those let oil by.
That's what my mechanic told me. Do you know if this is the same for a 2zz? (I'll probably research it anyway).
Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely check on that. s:) :) s:)
UPDATE:
Ok, so 500 mls and still no oil loss.
I took my car into Rogue to get the engine tested and looked over. Firstly it appears that the oil is coming from the bottom pulley (crank?) and is probably an oil seal. The oil seems to have been whipped up the engine making it look like it's coming from the head gasket s:D :D s:D . It's possible the seal may have been compromised by the pressure in the engine. Rogue couldn't confim or deny this so it's still just my thought.
A compression test and leak down test was peformed which confirmed it's not the head gasket but there did appear to be leakage down into the crank. Apparently, this could be due to either a score in the bore s:( :( s:( or aligned gaps in the rings (this can happen as rings twist around the cylinders).
For now, it's just a case of monitoring and hope it stays as it is. I shall get the oil seal replaced at some point though.
Quote from: "dcod"A compression test and leak down test was peformed which confirmed it's not the head gasket but there did appear to be leakage down into the crank. Apparently, this could be due to either a score in the bore s:( :( s:( or aligned gaps in the rings (this can happen as rings twist around the cylinders).
For now, it's just a case of monitoring and hope it stays as it is. I shall get the oil seal replaced at some point though.
Could it be the rings sticking in the piston grooves? Same as happens on some early 1ZZ engines.
I had a bad oil leak under load from behind the bottom pulley,my mechanic fixed it with a new seal.
Quote from: "life of bryan"I had a bad oil leak under load from behind the bottom pulley,my mechanic fixed it with a new seal.
The guy at Rogue said it's not a difficult fix but the bottom sump requires removing, cleaning and resealing when it's put back together. The sealant (silicon) needs up to 5 hours to set before new oil is put in. I believe that's what he said, my memory ain't what it used to be.
Quote from: "Toplesscouple"Could it be the rings sticking in the piston grooves? Same as happens on some early 1ZZ engines.
Could be a possibility. I'll research to see if it's a known 2zz problem. Is there anything that can be done about it? An additive maybe.
It was a circular seal directly behind the pulley on mine,luckily I check my oil on a regular basis mostly do small journeys and have a piece of wooden board under the car in the garage to show up leaks so I spotted it early.
Quote from: "Toplesscouple"Quote from: "dcod"A compression test and leak down test was peformed which confirmed it's not the head gasket but there did appear to be leakage down into the crank. Apparently, this could be due to either a score in the bore s:( :( s:( or aligned gaps in the rings (this can happen as rings twist around the cylinders).
For now, it's just a case of monitoring and hope it stays as it is. I shall get the oil seal replaced at some point though.
Could it be the rings sticking in the piston grooves? Same as happens on some early 1ZZ engines.
Can you post the results of that compression test?
There are usually three rings on a piston and it is usual practice during assembly to stagger the gaps so that they don't all line up. For them to 'move' that far is doubtful.
For them to say that 'there was leakage down into the crank' suggests that they got a low reading on one cylinder. If you pull the plugs and find a colour difference on one then there may be an issue.
Don't worry because oil / water loss problems can be managed until you choose to do something about them.
1500 miles ago my compression test was 201,202,215,215.
This time it was 185,188,190,193.
Leak test showed 20%, 18%, 12%, 10%. The guy at Rogue said that he could only hear the air escape through the oil filler cap which means it's escaping past the rings into the crank case.
The compression test actually shows closer figures now than before. The difference in values maybe due to a different gauge (different garages).
As for spark plugs, the plug that came out of cylinder 4 was different (white). This is probably because it came out of cylinder 1 at the previous compression test but put back in 4.
If you got it done at Rouge then I'd trust exactly what they say. The compressions look ok though really.
Quote from: "life of bryan"It was a circular seal directly behind the pulley on mine,luckily I check my oil on a regular basis mostly do small journeys and have a piece of wooden board under the car in the garage to show up leaks so I spotted it early.
I check my oil so frequently now that any loss I see now would probably be down to the number of times I wipe oil off the sfuck fuck sfuck ing dipstick!
Quote from: "mrzwei"If you got it done at Rouge then I'd trust exactly what they say. The compressions look ok though really.
That's how I feel. I'll get my local garage to change my oil in 2500mls. At the same time I'll get them to do another compression test to see the difference in values between garages and check things aren't any worse. I had new plugs put in so I'll also get them checked for colouration to see if cylinder 1 is a particular problem.
The guy at Rogue said the compression gauges have 5% tollerance. This is probably when they are new. 3 years down the line they are probably wildly inaccurate and generally used to show a difference between cylinders rather than a specific value. I doubt the gauges get calibrated every year.