Hello all.
Yesterday my power steering failed. However, bizarrely, it seems to be working intermittently. I've checked the fluid level and it seems fine. No warning lights after start up. The car is currently veering (veering being the operative word!) constantly between handling like a tank and handling normally. Mainly it's the tank thing, though.
In case it helps, the car is pre-facelift (2001).
Is there anything simple I can check without having to book more time off work to take it to the garage again? (I think they're sick of seeing me!)
Thank you! s:) :) s:)
Can you be more specific about "failed"?
Can you hear the pump whining still, or is it just dead?
If its intermittent, can you hear the pump when it works and not when it doesn't...(iyswim! s:D :D s:D )
Strange you have no warning light..?
Have you a code reader?
You could try unplugging all 3 plugs under the pump, then starting the car and seeing what happens?
Maybe take it for a drive? I'm not sure how hard the steering is without the pump on, though, so be careful..!
I think this will be an increasing problem with these pumps in the future, after dismantling one last year...the brushes mill the copper away, spreading copper dust around the motor workings, causing arcing.
I think that the many reports of "car trying to kill me", "feels dangerous", "wandering around randomly on a straight road", etc, are caused by the initial effects of this.
Not too serious a problem for the ECU to throw a light / code, but enough to make the car a little unpredicatable.....
Anyway..I digress...! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Let us know..! s:D :D s:D
QuoteStrange you have no warning light..?
Is your warning light working?
Thanks both. s:) :) s:)
Dcod - it comes on at start up, (the P/S light, that is) then goes off. So I am presuming it's working?
Dyn-Evo - By 'failed' I just mean it is extremely hard to steer. Not sure how else to describe it!
Where is the pump? I don't really know what I'm listening for but I haven't noticed any different sounds since it happened.
I don't have a code reader - although I have had a few problems recently with losing power at 4000+ RPM (seems to be OK now though...?!) and that didn't throw up a light either - would any codes still be logged even if warning lights didn't come up for whatever reason?
QuoteWhere is the pump? I don't really know what I'm listening for but I haven't noticed any different sounds since it happened.
Turn the ignition on and listen by the front drivers side wheel, you should hear a faint whining noise.
As for it's location, open the bonnet, push all the poppers in and remove with finger nail, lift up plastic cover and you should see the pump and reservoir.
You can have pending codes that do not throw a warning lamp but a code reader will find. A U380 code reader for 20 quid on ebay or amazon is easy to use.
Toplesscouple had some p/s pump issues, may be worth a PM. A popular trick is to hit the pump casing with a hammer - I know TPLC had some success with this method.
is there any fluid in it?
Thanks all. I'll shelve looking for a code reader to another day as I just need to get this fixed quickly, but maybe for next time!
I will have a look/listen at the pump as soon as I can (tied up in work and meetings at the mo) and I'll see if Topless have any advice. s:) :) s:)
markiii - the fluid level is between the min/max, if that's what you mean?
One more question - if it is the pump am I likely to be doing further damage by driving it?
Obviously I will be trying to get it fixed ASAP but the sheer logistics of it/work etc mean I will have to do at least some driving. s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "MelBee42"markiii - the fluid level is between the min/max, if that's what you mean?
Are you talking about the power steering fluid level? (The reservoir is where the pump is, under the bonnet, under the plastic covering).
Don't know about doing damage to the car but you may do damage to yourself if the steering suddenly goes at an inappropriate time! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "MelBee42"markiii - the fluid level is between the min/max, if that's what you mean?
Are you talking about the power steering fluid level? (The reservoir is where the pump is, under the bonnet, under the plastic covering).
Yes, I checked it last night as I managed to prise the plastic up just enough to see it (it was dark and I couldn't figure out how to get it off properly) - hence not seeing the pump or anything else. But the fluid level is definitely OK.
When you say the steering might 'go' do you mean freeze up entirely? As it's already pretty much like driving a tank the majority of the time!
Quote from: "MelBee42"When you say the steering might 'go' do you mean freeze up entirely? As it's already pretty much like driving a tank the majority of the time!
If it's working intermitently then it could jump between very stiff and not stiff at a dangerous time. That was my concern.
Just as a side note, if a second-hand pump is required from a breakers, is the pump the same as the Celica? Anyone know? (May increase the ability to get one)
Before you spend hundreds Mel check this CLICKY (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=32611)
Quote from: "Les"Before you spend hundreds Mel check this CLICKY (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=32611)
+1
If this turns out to be the power steering pump rather than the steering joint then you have 5 options that I can think of and unfortunately they will all cost you a chunk of money,it will really depend on what your plans are with your car.
1. Go to Toyota and buy a new power steering pump for around £1400 then go straight to a therapist to have you head examined immediately!
2.Buy a new power steering pump from me,£350 would secure this. l viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36082 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36082) l
3.Buy a used pump for around £150,D!ck2ski would probably be best as I'm sure he would give you some kind of short term warranty.
4.Have your pump reconditioned if it isnt damaged beyond repair and it will probably be 3-4 weeks before you get it back.
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34536&p=415239&hilit=power+steering+pump#p415239 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=34536&p=415239&hilit=power+steering+pump#p415239) l
5.Do nothing,sell car as "spares or repair".
Quote from: "life of bryan"If this turns out to be the power steering pump rather than the steering joint then you have 5 options that I can think of and unfortunately they will all cost you a chunk of money,it will really depend on what your plans are with your car.
I can think of another option that I would personally try first:
Quote from: "Toplesscouple"Quote from: "Stewarty".
I took a small hammer, and while the pump was "spooling up" (I had a friend turn on the ignition for me) I gave it a couple of sharp taps with the hammer ON THE ALUMINIUM PUMP CASTING (not the soft steel can which surrounds the armature). This re-seats the motor shaft in the end bushings - a simple trick learned after years of rebuilding pumps and alternators.
It has worked flawlessly ever since. .
S.
Our P/S light came on today on the way home from a local jaunt. After checking the electrical side (well, pulled a fuse and it seemed ok s:) :) s:) ) I used the hammer trick. Appears to have worked. I guess we'll find out next weekend on Stephs run s:scared: :scared: s:scared:
Total cost circa £3 for a cheap hammer
Quote from: "KTM_RIDER"I used the hammer trick
s:D :D s:D I love posts like that. One of my favourite quotes: 'If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem starts to look like a nail'.
The basic test for power steering is to move the steering wheel from lock to lock (or try to) with the engine off. Then do the same with the engine running. The difference will be obvious.
If it isn't, then the WD40, if it still isn't, then the hammer trick, if still not then pm D!ck.
I personally would drive the car with the power steering malfunctioning because you usually only get issues at low speeds.
Thank you all. I guess knowing me I am not willing to take a hammer to any bit of the car as I know I'll make a terrible mess of things! I probably can't even do Les's recommendation by myself sadly, and although I could probably buy a second hand pump from D!ck I don't even know a garage that would fit it for me (I don't know anywhere that doesn't use parts they don't buy themselves). Thank you though - I will have take all your advice and see what logistical solution I can think of! s:) :) s:)
Not a difficult job,is there any members near you that have experience of this that can help?
*puts hand around mouth and shouts...... CUSTARD* s;) ;) s;)
Hello All. s:) :) s:)
I will have a look at it for her. I had asked Mel to post here as I knew you lot would have more experience than me. Mine has been fine so far (Fingers crossed)
Unfortunately I've lost my code reader. May by another.
You can check the lower steering joint visually by looking between the back of the wheel and wheel arch on the N/S/F (use a torch s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ), another method is to jack both front wheels off the ground (supported of course) then turn the steering wheel with the eingine off, you can usually tell if the joint is siezed.
Quote from: "custardavenger"Hello All. s:) :) s:)
I will have a look at it for her. I had asked Mel to post here as I knew you lot would have more experience than me. Mine has been fine so far (Fingers crossed)
Unfortunately I've lost my code reader. May by another.
Ive got a spare one as i can use my Kiwi. Would you like me to post it up to you and you can use it for as long as you need?
Thanks again all. Steering on the drive home yesterday was intermittent at best but this morning it was absolutely fine. Clearly something up though so I'll talk to Rob when he's free.
Cheers! s:) :) s:)
That would be great Nathan. Will PM you my address.
Posted lunch time today. Let me know it arrives safe
Checked the pump tonight (well OK, Rob did). Seems fine - when stationery. As soon as I drove off, the steering failed. Stopped, checked it again, pump sounds OK (also steering OK). Might there be any reason for this...?
Could this be what les suggested? A seizing steering universal joint perhaps?
Would that cause an intermittent fault? Or if it's seized would it just be like that all the time?
I'm in no way an expert but as it is an electro-hydraulic pump (hydraulics usually just fail but electrics are often intermittent) then I would make sure that any plugs / wires coming out of the pump are secure. Always worth a wiggle and a push!
QuoteAlways worth a wiggle and a push!
Said the actress to the bishop. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Steering joint becomes very slack allowing the crusiform to catch on the carriers above and below. Feels loose and rough and a little stiff. Key at position one, Steering lock off, but engine off. Rock the top of the steering wheel from side to side while looking at the front wheel. Any slight movement before wheels turn, or delay? UJ kaput.
Power steering may have an intermittent fault. Have you given it a bop with a hammer? On the side, directly between the mounting bolts on the ally casing. Whats the worst that can happen?
Sounds like it could be the ECU attached to the pump,I believe it alters how much power steering is given in relation to the speed you are traveling so it seems it could be failing to do this?
I'm not completely sure, but I havean idea that it was kind of intermittent when Les had it happen. You'll need to confirm with him though. It is possible for the UJ to seize temporarily I would have thought. Presumably Rob has already looked at the lower steering joint?
QuoteIt is possible for the UJ to seize temporarily I would have thought.
Youre probably right, Ive only seen 4 or 5 that are knackered. They were all pretty loose, so at some point between good and knackered I suppose it could happen, but Toyota would be in deep sh*t if it caused a crash.
I had the same problem a year ago and it was the steering joint, wire brushed and coated with a copper grease and it's been fine since.
There is a power steering pump on the for sales now mate if its that
Slight drift, but an interesting analytical thread.
Three types of problem:
Mechanical - a problem with the uj's
Hydraulic - problem with the pump unit, seals or something sticking
Electronic - connection or ecu issue
The uj and connection issues are fairly easy to eliminate, then the hammer therapy for the hydraulic problem. Possibly a code reader for the ecu.
If all that fails, and it hasn't really cost anything, then used pump from D!ck, ebay or whatever.
Quote from: "dick2ski"QuoteAlways worth a wiggle and a push!
Said the actress to the bishop. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Steering joint becomes very slack allowing the crusiform to catch on the carriers above and below. Feels loose and rough and a little stiff. Key at position one, Steering lock off, but engine off. Rock the top of the steering wheel from side to side while looking at the front wheel. Any slight movement before wheels turn, or delay? UJ kaput.
Power steering may have an intermittent fault. Have you given it a bop with a hammer? On the side, directly between the mounting bolts on the ally casing. Whats the worst that can happen?
Apologies but this means nothing to me whatsoever! Mounting bolts... ally casing... crusiform... you lost me at 'steering'. s;) ;) s;)
Tried the code reader, both O2 sensors are kaput.
Quote from: "loadswine"I'm not completely sure, but I havean idea that it was kind of intermittent when Les had it happen. You'll need to confirm with him though. It is possible for the UJ to seize temporarily I would have thought. Presumably Rob has already looked at the lower steering joint?
Quote from: "dick2ski"QuoteIt is possible for the UJ to seize temporarily I would have thought.
Youre probably right, Ive only seen 4 or 5 that are knackered. They were all pretty loose, so at some point between good and knackered I suppose it could happen, but Toyota would be in deep sh*t if it caused a crash.
My problem appeared during the winter after driving on wet salted roads, I feared the worse as I had power steering pump failure not long after I got the car (Fitted by Toyota under warranty), the steering stiffened up similar to pump failure but wasn't constant (it got worse after being stood over night).
As shown in the "How to" I did a temporary fix with loads of WD40, this freed it enough for a while but would be a dangerous fix to rely on.
After replacing the joint I did look into stripping the old one down and replacing the U/J but to be honest the yokes are that flimsy I wouldn't even consider re-using the old shaft.
OK had a look at it last night.
Didn't check the joint as the feel of the steering was perfect, and the problem is intermittent. Pump made all the right sounds from lock to lock, motor speed changed in relation to steering input as I would expect.
My only conclusion is that there is a problem with the motor. Of course the only way I can think of to prove that is to listen for the pump noise when the steering goes stiff. Not so easy apparently as it doesn't seem to happen while parked.
Only thing I didn't do was test with other electrics running. I'm guessing it's only happened when she has the lights on. Would be surprised if it's that though.
Could it be a battery/voltage issue as I'm sure I've read a post where someones battery was on its way out not giving enough power to the steering pump which give similar issues.
Rob - it happens with lights on or off. Also the pump sounds OK with the lights on too (checked just now). I just can't get it to replicate the problem when parked - have tried a couple more times. Yet when I'm driving it happens very frequently.
Oh well. Pump bought. We'll see if that fix it.
Does anyone know how easy they are to fit? And how much power steering fluid do I need?
Quote from: "life of bryan"Could it be a battery/voltage issue as I'm sure I've read a post where someones battery was on its way out not giving enough power to the steering pump which give similar issues.
I think it may have been Roger who experienced that. Didn't he get a warning light as well?
Quick update on this.
When I got the garage to fix my blown head gasket I also asked them to look at the steering.
They say it is definitely the UJ that is seizing up. They've oiled it up and everything but having picked it up and driven it today, it's still very bad. Will definitely need something replacing. Back to the garage I go. s:( :( s:(
As it is an exterior U/J it will have rubber seals on supposedly to keep water out and grease in, although they do work for quite some time the weather can still cause them to fail, this seal can still prevent oil getting in if just squirted on that's why I used loads WD40 while working the steering at the same time as it is thin enough to penetrate.
This is a very temporary fix and should not be relied on
I posted last week with the same issue. My steering was intermittent so got some good advice on here, my problem was slightly different in that my engine management light came on (its still on) around the same time. I haven't had time to take it to the garage so drove it for a few days it got worse and was like driving a tank, the PAS woulld drop in and out randomly. So I thought, following some advice it may be a battery problem not having enough power to efectively power the pump. I change the battery and it was back to normal.... for a few days!
At that point I decided that having fitted a new stereo the week before that I would put the stereo in standby before turning the ignition off. Strangely this seems to have worked, I haven't had an issue for over a week but then I have rarely used the stereo. Might be an alternator problem? or too much drain on the battery affecting the power to the steering pump.
Well, this is finally fixed! Thanks everyone for all your advice and thank you markiii for getting the UJ to me so quickly. Found a garage to fit it, and got new spark plugs while I was at it (hopefully this will fix some odd powerloss troubles I've occasionally had at high speeds... not that I ever drive at high speeds, of course!). £92. Much better than last week's heart-attack inducing bill!
Good news at last Mel, good stuff.
Thanks! Also, I now have a pump I don't need...!
Keep hold of it, someone will need one.
sorry to revive an old post if you have started getting a little whine, which some breakers said is on v low mileae for that (short of 20k) will the fix above work?
I took a small hammer, and while the pump was "spooling up" (I had a friend turn on the ignition for me) I gave it a couple of sharp taps with the hammer ON THE ALUMINIUM PUMP CASTING (not the soft steel can which surrounds the armature). This re-seats the motor shaft in the end bushings - a simple trick learned after years of rebuilding pumps and alternators.
May be worth posting this 'fix' in the 'how to' or 'faq' section because this is a very common problem.
It was mentioned on here before but is lost in the mass of data.
There is at least one member on here with the issue now and even if it is only a temporary fix it may only need to be repeated as and when it occurs.
Very useful post.