I have developed a bit of an issue over the last couple of days...
My car starts perfectly, ticks over smoothly, drives perfectly up to about 3 to 4k rpm.
Then... if I try to drive in an 'energetic and enthusiastic' manner, the engine noise changes and I lose some speed at the top of each gear
To be honest, I actually like the noise, it sounds like a straight through/tuned exhaust s:D :D s:D . What I don't like is the loss of power, never a good sign s:( :( s:(
When not under pressure, revving is clean and crisp.
There is no smoke/steam from the exhaust, unless the weather is cold/wet, then the usual white puffs from an engine with a cat.
I have a slow water leak (can lowered water pressure cause this kind of thing?), but the bottle has never been allowed to run dry. I think it's my rad at the usual bottom left spot.
I had the oil changed as I have done about 5k miles since I got her, slight improvent but still got the problem.
While they had it, I got them to look at the exhaust, but they couldn't find anything wrong with it (they are an exhaust centre, not a Toyota specialist....)
So, to summarise...
1, has anyone come across anything similar?
2, does anyone have any pointers where to look?
3, can anyone recommend a decent garage near me (Tunbridge Wells in Kent)?
Preferred possibility is the maf is dirty or faulty.
Next possibility is catalyst or precat failure blocking the exhaust.
First try cleaning the maf and reset the ecu.
Have a read of this symptoms sound similar
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43983&p=516063&hilit=blocked+cat#p516063 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43983&p=516063&hilit=blocked+cat#p516063) l
Hopefully its not but may be you could eliminate it anyway.
Hmmm, I've really got to get myself an O2 socket, and soon!!!
Some of those symptoms do sound similar, I was thinking it must be exhaust related somehow. (Or a knackered head)
Well, ya live and learn, dontcha s:?: :?: s:?:
Just got back from my local automotive electrician, got him to plug her into his SOLUS machine.
He did a full reset on the ECU, and my problems seem to have been cured, for the sake of twenty quid s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
I thought that using my OBD reader was sufficient to clear down the problems s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I don't know if it was because I did something wrong, or because my MAF was so dirty brfore I cleaned it last week, but that seems to have been the root of my troubles s:D :D s:D
So, a message to all the others on here who aren't quite sure what they're doing...
The how-to's on the forum were written by people who know what they're talking about, read them properly!!!
I believe a lot of the ROC members "wear The Tee shirt" and have got it dirty doing what their writing about!
A new maf secor is part of my yearly service.
I must admit i need a new/ secoundhand
But vgc standard cat... Pm me got one for sale !
Thanks for the offer, but I'm off to see an exhaust specialist today. Looking at getting a stainless system made for her s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Well, that was a waste of time then s:( :( s:(
They talked the talk, but they were worse than useless when I got there s:flame: :flame: s:flame:
When I plug in my OBD, and ask for real-time information, it says Catalytic Converter Information Incomplete.
Should my Cat be 'talking' to my ECU?
If they're not talking, does this mean my Cat has failed, and this is where I should be looking? (As well as checking/knocking out if they're still there my Pre-Cats)?
It seems that everywhere I go, they take one look and say 'ooooh, mid-engine.... don't know nuffin' 'bout them, errrrm'.
I can get a new cat locally, I have an ECP down the road who can supply at a reasonable price. I just don't fancy shelling out that much unless I know that's the problem.
Some cars have catalyst heating, our car does not. Obdii is a generic system so it will still look for the data relating to cat heating. Incomplete just means our ecu doesn't support it. You need to monitor the pre catalyst O2 sensor pulse patterns and the post catalyst patterns and compare. Simply though if you don't get a code stating catalyst operating below efficiency then the cat is doing its job. The only way to look for your problem is to get physical and take the O2 sensors out for a look or just take the whole catalyst off for a look.
I have an aftermarket cat recently removed if you need to test it and I am also in Kent.
I'm reasonably sure it's a sensor problem really.
I've booked it in On Wednesday, asI'm just working too many hours at the moment.
Thanks for the offer Andyroo, you're not a million miles away, I'll bear that in mind:)
No problem just let me know.
When you say you lose power in gears like how ?
Example
1st 0 to 30
2nd 30 to 50
3rd 50 to 70
4th 70 to 90
5th 90 to 110
What order does yours go please....
Ps. Afther reading what you have said sounds
Like a hole in the exhuast , know i was told
You can also have fine crack or a seal come apart
From the exhust it self , i was told turn engine on
And use a tissue and place the tissue along the exhuast
To see if any escaping air hit it, if it does that the point
Where the crack is or line fracture ....
Becouse there noise , also check the rubber pipes
Leading to the air box, and also cheek the air box for
Leafs and crap.
Be carefull exhuast get so hot use gloves....
Afther that above only way strip the exhuast
And look at the precat .....
If you take out a o2 sensor left and right your see with a torch
In the hole ,A honey come nest, that the dreadded pre cat that everybody
Dreads , if it brakes apart it can go into the engine
And destroy the car..
The idea is you take the mainifold off ,and
Wack that honey come out both sides with a
Long screwdriver and that
Suppose to stop the precat engine destroying method
, they say if it not there in the mainifold
Then it can not heart the engine and the one
Cat on the car is enough to go thu it mot on
It own.
The last thing I did was clean the MAF sensor, so I'm assuming I damaged it somehow. I've ordered a new one, along with an O2 sensor (I've had one ready for a while, so I'll do both). That will give me a chance to check if I still have pre-cats or not (not for long if I have).
I've decided to do it myself, rather than pay someone else.
If I'm lucky, this might be my excuse for a nice new exhaust system s:D :D s:D
Hmmmm, OK, well £400 odd quid later and...
I no longer have Pre-cats, has improved the exhaust sound as well (nice little bonus there s:) :) s:) ), doesn't look like they'd done any damage anywhere in the engine.
I have new O2 sensors, (both Denso) I'll wait and see how they work out ref error problems...
I have a new MAF sensor, the old one wasn't giving a proper reading.
I have a porous sump s:scared: :scared: s:scared: (New one Tuesday after Easter).
She is revving fast and easy up to about 4k, then she still isn't right. Just not getting the power through the higher revs s:( :( s:(
I'll do a full ECU reset in the morning, my radio was still tuned, so I don't think he did one. But I am working about 20 miles away tonight, so I will be able to disconnect the battery when I get to work, reconnect it in the morning, let her warm up and then take her for a nice long detouring drive in the morning through the lanes. As usual, I hadn't read the section on the reset properly, didn't see the bit about letting the engine warm up before driving off, and then going for a nice long drive without hammering the throttle too hard.
TBH, I'm still not 100% convinced about the CAT itself. I forgot to ask if he had pressure tested the exhaust, as it still feels like an exhaust/back pressure issue. This would explain the drop in power and pick up in noise? Possibly?
stupid thought....have you changed the air filter and changed the spark plugs?
Hopefully not a stupid thought at all s:) :) s:)
Especially since I'm planning to do exactly that!!!
Ordered a K&N panel filter, and some Denso plugs. Hopefully have them by mid-week. I'm starting to think this is a fuelling/air issue.
2 questions really...
1, does anyone know the correct gap for standard copper plugs?
2, does anyone have the address for a decent psychiatrist? My wife thinks I should sell the car and get a 'normal' one!!!! s:scared: :scared: s:scared: s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Spark plug type:
DENSO SK16R11
NGK IFR5A11
Spark plug gap, mm (in.):
1.1 (0.043)
Thanks for that.
I'm fairly sure it's a fuel/air problem now. That's what my symptoms seem to bepointing at:
low power,
flat spots,
excessive exhaust noise,
hesitating when throttle pressed,
runs fine on tickover/light throttle pressure.
When the MAF sensor is playing up, am I right in thinking thatit doesn't throw an error code? I ask because I bought a nonOEM MAF. I'm toying with popping to Mr t's and buying an OEM one, if there's a chance that will cure my problem. I'm fairly sure this all started when I tried to clean my old one...
In the good old days, I would have been checking my points/plugs and carb.
OK, latest update, in the hope someone has seen something similar...
New K&N panel filter, done. s:) :) s:)
New Denso spark plugs, done. I did notice a little oil around the tops of a couple of the old Bosch Multi-sparks I removed (I have a very light leak on my cam-cover, but my mechanic said it isn't worth doing). The old plugs were a lovely rich-tea biscuit colour with no evidence of oil contamination. s:) :) s:)
New Denso O2 sensors, done. s:) :) s:)
Original Toyota MAF sensor, properly cleaned and put back (seems to be giving good readings...), done. s:) :) s:)
Pre-Cats removed, exhaust given a thorough check-over at the time, done. s:) :) s:)
Does the ignition timing ever go slightly off on these? Feels almost like I am getting pre-ignition?? I am still getting problems, and it feels like an ignition issue. (In the old days, I would have done the points/capacitor by now). Unfortunately, I am a bit behind the timers with these new-fangled engines (you probably guessed that by now!!)
Where would I find the VVTi? Can I test it? How hard is it to replace? Is this the possible cause of my problems? Do they go wrong very often?I read somewhere on here that it may be the cause if my problems are around the 4000 RPM mark.
I'm wondering if the air/fuel thing is a bit of a red herring, and I should be looking at the ignition side of things...
Oh, and I don't get any fault codes.
Fin
if you dont mind pm'ing your E
I have 2 very good pdf docs on the vvti
Jason
pm sent, thanks
pdfs sent
Well, been down to Mr T, new MAF Sensor £165!!!
I hope that's the cause, guess I'll find out Wednesday when it arrives! If not, their diagnostics are just ovef £50 an hour with vat, which I actually think is quite reasonable.
Thanks Ardent, I've had a read through, and at least now I am sure it's not the VVTi system s:) :) s:)
Some good news at last s:D :D s:D
your welcome.
Can not help thinking how usefull a toyota hand held tester would be.
The bay of E ??????
Hand held tester? Haven't seen one of those...
I have an OBDii reader, if that's the same thing??
The write-ups at least explain why I have been having trouble working out whether it was a fuel or timing issue. It appears that the MAF sensor controls both.
Well, I have now replaced everything I can think of (except the radiator, I'll do that this weekend as my new one turned up yesterday).
She still has no power and won't go past about 4.5k except in first s:( :( s:( I've got her booked in with my local Mr T on Tuesday next week, hopefully they'll be able to tell me what it is. I've spent over £1000 on her in the last couple of weeks,money I was hoping to put towards something fun, either getting the head airflowed (has anyone tried that?) or a set of skirts for her s:( :( s:(
keep us updated
Will do. I noticed a couple of threads about temperature senders etc. I'm wondering if it's something along those lines, and it's running on constant 'choke'.... The temp gauge sits nicely in the middle, but does it send a separate signal to the ECU?
That would explain quite a few of my symptoms, including really cr#p mpg figures (down to well below 30 from an average 38 or so). Anyway, I'll have a quick look when I do my rad, but I'm just gonna leave it to Mr T and hope it's nothing serious!!!
Did you try and unbolt the main cat to see if it allows it to rev as it might be blocked. Also look for any loose pipe on the air intake mainly after the maf ie around the throttle body.
I originally thought of the cat, I've had 3 'experts' check it over (I even trust 2 of them) they all said the cat was fine.
I've checked all the hoses I can see, and I can't find any leaks/loose ones anywhere. Tbh, I kinda wish it was the cat. I've been offered one at a good price, and I'd probably use it as an excuse for a new exhaust.
Maybe you've got a dirty fuel filter giving you trouble?
l viewtopic.php?f=47&t=46032 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=46032) l
The thread mentions to depressurize the fuel system first, I don't know the best way to do that???
I read that you spent £400 getting rid of the pre cats, does that mean you got a new exhaust manifold? If so which one?
No, it's the original manifold, but that included 2 o2 sensors and drilling an helicoiling 2 of the 3 amigos.
Just a thought, and possibly showing my ignorance...
I've just done my radiator, chuffed that that went well s:D :D s:D , but...
As soon as I turned the key, the water went straight through the system to the rad. Shouldn't it have been held back by the thermostat until it got up to temperature?
Could a knackered thermostat be the cause of my problems???
Just an idle thought, I'm not touching her again, Mr T can sort it out on Tuesday s;) ;) s;)
If the thermostat is stuck open then it will always let water flow straight through, which just means a longer warm up time. Once it's warm everything should run smoothly, but even cold engines will rev to redline if you're nasty.
I thought a fuel filter and pump was one of the most popular culprits for power cutting out at high rpm and as speed increases.
You might as well just ask Toyota to replace the pump & filter and let you know if it needs anything else.
Thanks. The fuel line thing certainly sounds like a possible/probable culprit. I'm working straight through until next Monday night now, shame as it sounds like a relativelh easy one to check/fix.
Just in case I get bored over the weekend....
How do you clean a fuel filter, it seems an easy job to get at it. I don't know what I would use for cleaning though :/
The fuel filter as you probably already know is located inside the fuel tank. I replaced a friends last week and it was a straightforward job. I'd definitely replace it rather than try to clean it though as it has a very fine mesh and I don't know how you'll be able to tell if your 'cleaning' has been effective or not.
Andy.
Ok, thanks. I've been speaking to Mr T' who is looking at it on Tuesday.
The lower part of the filter is about £12, and the housing is just over £35.At that price, it's not worth messing around trying to clean the old one.
On the grounds that this sounds like a good lead, both are coming in on Wednesday. They come from Belgium, so they take a day longer.
It's still booked for a diagnostic, so fingers crossed on fuel starvation!!!
Seems stange that this all seemed to start when I cleaned my old MAF sensor, maybe a dirty MAF works best with a dirty fuel filter?
Hi there,
Im having exactly the same issues as you on my 2000 mr2 with 99k miles. i have changed the maf + o2 sensors, had a garage look at the exhaust system and my local garage has had a look and cant see anything wrong. please keep us updated...
Hi wizzard, sorry to hear that s:( :( s:(
I know it's frustrating, I've been chasing my tail for a month on this one!!! I should have a firm answer on Tuesday, the good news is that the filter is looking like a solid possibility. It would mess things up the same as the other bits,but it's mechanical so there's no error code s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I'm hoping that's the case, a new one is just over a tenner plus vat from Mr T (I haven't checked the price with Chris from CTP), and there's an excellent write-up on here how to change it s:) :) s:)
Does yours get worse when the engine warms up?
i hadn't even considered the fuel filter... i do hope that's it as that isn't to expensive! yes mine gets worse as it warms up, it drives fine and idles fine up until about 4k then acceleration in 3rd gear is non existent. so much for my local garage... if it hasn't got an engine light on they wont even try to look into fixing it!
Any news? i have taken my after market ecu out and still have the same problem.
Well, I took it up to Mf T.
They had a good look at the air intake, couldn't find any leaks s:) :) s:)
They checked the compression, all looks fine s:) :) s:)
They checked the fuel flow, all good s:) :) s:)
They checked the ignition, all good s:) :) s:)
They checked the exhaust manifold, all good s:) :) s:)
They spent about an hour going through everthing, and charged me exactly nothing at all!! I had to check I'd heard him properly, I was expecting a bill for about 100 quid s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Anyway... they are convinced that the cat has collapsed. Tbh, that's what I originally thought, but I've had it checked a few times and they all said it was fine. I have been offered one at a good price, just got to convince the other half that she fancies a bit of a drive s;) ;) s;)
Not sure whether to do the filter tomorrow anyway, and see what happens there. Or get a cat, and do both. Apparently, nobody pressure checks cats any more, but that's what their database says is most likely.
Thanks for the update Fin, i have the car booked into the garage tomorrow for a fuel filter now so will go ahead with that and look for a cat on ebay.
How did you get on with the filter? Has it made any difference?
Be careful if your cat is blocked, the back pressure has been known to torpedo the engine!
A restriction anywhere in the exhaust would only reduce the exhaust noise, or so I thought anyway.
More than one exhaust shop has flow tested the cat already right? It would be good to unbolt the cat and test, but that could be a bit of a pain... Less painfull than paying for a new cat that wasn't needed however.
A poor fuel supply will sure cut power, but it won't make the car sound like it has a tuned exhaust as you mention in the op, it would be more like sputtering/coughing/pulsing.
Maybe you should record the sound upload it somewhere so we can hear it.
I wonder if a dirty or sticking/faulty injector could be the cause? Possibly causing a lean or rich condition, affecting sound and power?
I'm surprised at mr t's diagnosis, with no cat flow test or visual inspection, just an expensive guess, although i've noticed heaps of reports of mrT having no clue about MR2's, causing people to blow heaps of cash.
Well the filter made no difference at all, however the mechanic at the garage said he was 99% sure it was a blockage in the exhaust most likely the cat as he took out the o2 sensors and the engine reved fine! I have now ordered a new cat on eBay for £185 and if that doesn't work then I have no clue what it could be.
Hi wizzard, does your exhaust sound louder than normal like fin's car?
Are your pre cats removed?
Glad to hear you seem to have found the cause.
I'll be doing mine this morning,I'll post to confirm result. I just wish I'd listened to my gut instonct when this first happened, instead of chasing my tail because of 'experts' at exhaust shops!
It would have saved me a heap of cash, and alot of hassle for alot of people trying to help me think what else it could be.
I think you might find that I did tell you to unbolt the main cat at the top of the page. As what can happen is pre cat matterial comes away and travels down the exhaust to the main cat where it gets stuck. This restricts flow to the point the engine is not able to clear all of the exhaust gasses so the next bang of the piston is not so strong and so on. This not so perfect bang is less power and no revs, plus it has been seen before.
I thought you were qiite probably right at the time, my own initial thought was a blocked exhaust causing excess back pressure.
That's why it's so annoying that I asked 3 'experts' to check it for me, and the idiots all said it was fine. I am assuming it is partially blocked, enough to allow some gases through, but not for the engine to breathe properly. The 'experts' saw gas flow, and thought that was it. Now I've spent a month chasing my tail, wasted a couple hundred quid on sensors (most of what I spent needed done anyway), when I could have just chucked a new cat on there, and have enjoyed driving like I usually do.
Ooooh, I could crush a grape!!!
Right, latest (and last) update on this one!
New cat fitted this morning, and a quick test drive with a great big smile on my face s:) :) s:)
It's been so long since this started, that I'd forgotten how much fun driving is supposed to be! She's still not quite 100%, but the ecu reset won't be complete yet.
My thanks to all of you for hints and tips. And to the idiots at the exhaust centres.... well I'd best not write that here, ladies read these comments as well s;) ;) s;)
pleased for you. Now go an enjoy.
Wow, glad you fixed it, sorry for adding to the confusion.
No problems. Everybody on here was trying to help, when the 'experts' got it wrong s:) :) s:)
Just goes to show.... An enthusiastic amateur beats an incompetent professional alot of the time!
As a side point, I have seen peple question the longevity of the fuel filter on here occassionally. Like I said to the chap at MrT: if it's a 'lifetime filter', why do you sell replacements?