Banging my head against a brick wall here guys! Since having the entire exhaust off to do other jobs including pre cat removal, I'm having a ridiculous rise in blood pressure as I cannot seem to get to simple mating faces to seal! With 12 years aircraft maintenance experience, replacing gaskets, torquing nuts/bolts/unions is a daily activity. How on earth I'm getting this wrong defies belief.
Gaskets and studs/nuts are new. Torqued to the settings found on another thread, starting in the middle, following it up with the outer nuts progressively and equidistantly. It leaks. Add 90 degree turn. Still leaks. Remove, 2 further new gaskets assembled with a 'sensor safe' assembly paste. Had an assistant hold the main cat pipe in such a way that the two flanges are square and flush. Yep, still leaks! I had considered it could be the new flexi joints that had been welded in but use of my trusty aircraft high temp leak detector fluid (it bubbles where there is a leak) shows these are indeed sealed.
I've now ordered £25 worth of gaskets from Toyota rather than use the local motor factors incase there is a fitment issue? I'm gonna start again, from the manifold gasket down. Are there any useful pointers from anyone who has had trouble in the past?
Kind regards,
Jim
I cannot claim your practical experience however when I de catted the OE manifold I had no problems with the new (Toyota) gaskets sealing.
My guess is that it is a problem with the gaskets you are using or possibly an incorrect torque figure, although having only a very long torque wrench I did not use it on the 3 Amigo's.
The Toyota gaskets, 2 off x 174108 are a crush type.
Hope to hear all is well when you try the new (Toyota) gaskets.
+1 on Toyota gaskets. My only experience of non-T mani-cat gaskets has been with those that come with the cheapo stainless aftermarket manifold. They are notoriously pants, beaten only by the head-manifold gasket that comes with the kit which is double-pants!
The seal face is the indented ring around the exhaust hole and not on the flange itself, so thats the bit to concentrate on for cleanliness. Hopefully the MrT offerings will work OK. I've only had one poor experience with them. That was when working with 'tinkered' manis and cat pipes, where the recess was far too deep. Doubled-up gaskets solved that one.
Occasionally, the 'bulb' on the studs can impede the full travel of the cat flange onto them. Again, thats something I've only seen with aftermarket stuff and it sounds as though you're already happy that the flanges come together OK.
An outside possibility could be that you have an alignment issue on the mating surfaces due to distortion where the flexis have been welded on, although the flange is pretty chunky so thats something to park further down the list of possibles. The MrT crush gasket will take up some of the minor imperfections.
Oh, and make sure its an exhaust leak you're getting and not a draught from the flywheel. Some folk get confused by that - I'm sure you won't.
Quote from: "spit"An outside possibility could be that you have an alignment issue on the mating surfaces due to distortion where the flexis have been welded on, although the flange is pretty chunky so thats something to park further down the list of possibles. The MrT crush gasket will take up some of the minor imperfections.
I had this problem, it was important to torque up the manifold block gasket first and then the three amigos before the lower block bracket fixings. I ended up having to use a nut and bolt on one because of an alignment issue. That was with a 'made in China' cheapo though.
Oddly, I had not considered a draught from the flywheel, but it's certainly an exhaust leak. Under partial load it's pretty much inaudible. Anything past half pedal depression and you get that 'rapid tick' of a tiny exhaust leak.
I'm not sure it's a flexi alignment issue - I disconnected the cat pipe from the back box and had a colleague hold the pipe where I wanted to get the flanges nice and flush.
A good point about the blank portion of the stud - I'll inspect those upon removal when I get my Mr T gaskets.
It's reassuring to hear other folk have had issues with aftermarket gaskets. For what is worth, I don't think the crush washers are thick enough as when the flanges at pushed together by hand, the gap between the two is virtually nil, implying the tightening of the stud nuts is there purely to retain the cat pipe and not to compress the gaskets to form the required seal.
Great advice guys, thank you.
Jim
I had some motor factor seals and they weren't as thick as the toyota crush seals as you say. I ended up ordering from CTP on here and the crush seals were much thicker. Mine went together without and leaks (so far) so I suppose the issues you are seeing are due to poor quality pattern parts
£51 on genuine Toyota gaskets (manifold and downpipe x2), studs and nuts, correctly torqued......im STILL getting the 'rapid tic', such you would get from a leaking manifold. Only heard under load/deep throttle depressions. If it was a tiny hole, i'd expect it to improve as it got warm but it doesn't! Had the leak detector solution on it again.....no leaks.
Really, really, really stuck. Short of replacing the entire exhaust system......suggestions?
Regards,
Jim
When i got my latest car it had the pre cats removed i noticed a tick noise compared to the last car which had the precats in is this possibly the answer?
Seriously? Wow, I'd never had thought something like that would cause a tick!?!? But as you've had direct experience of both, and co-incidentally mine is de-pre catted, that could be the reason. I'd been wondering whether to buy an aftermarket manifold for a while now which would surely eliminate the tick?
Any other decatted members wish to share their experience?
Thanks mate.
Jim
It's not blown flexis is it?
Mine went and it was hard to pinpoint the blow.
Quite a common fault as these cars age.
Flexis are brand new, though it has crossed my mind there's a possibility of a pinhole in one of the welds. Again, leak detector solution was used but still no sign of a leak?!
If there is an exhaust leak then you would have found it with the leak detector solution, assuming you've gone over the whole lot? Definitely no leaks from a tiny crack or rust somewhere?
Take a recording of the sound and upload it somewhere.
You can hear the raspyish ticking, under load for examplew if in too high of a gear you would definitely hear it.
Yeah, drive along at 30mph in 4th, a decent press on the accelerator and the tick is heard getting quicker as the engine rpm rises?
Aii thats the one.
ALways been there Matt said it wasnt leaking and its been MOT'd recently no bothers, i always have and still belive its because the pre-cat chamber is not empty.
Just got back from a local garage who bunged a smoke generator up the exhaust tail pipe. Not a single whiff of smoke from anywhere.
Must be a weird side effect of emptying the pre cat chambers. Great excuse for a stainless manifold!
its not the worst noise in the world to be honest, but it make sense as the sound waves not have a chamber to bounce around, im in the process of decatting the main cat chamber so going to see how that affects the sound.
Perhaps not, but I hate noises/rattles/squeaks that I know shouldn't be there!
Does it go away after ten minutes or so. I have a tick on mine but it goes after a while and I believe it is one of the hydraulic tappets that is not getting oil quick enough. When the oil warms up and starts to get round quicker it goes away.
No, it's constant mate. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong, but these engines have solid lifters/tappets.
Regards,
Jim
Solid lifters is correct. Still they do wear and you can check the clearances.
Just shows you that when searching for information read the bloody thing correctly. I mis read a post on tappet noise and thought they were hydraulic tappets. I have since re-read the post and now have no idea what's causing my ticking noise. I think I was happier when I thought it was the tappets:)
I should know over the next day or two when I fit my new manifold....I'll report back.
I have noticed mine is a bit noisier with the precats removed. Like the ticky/tappy noise these engines have, but a little louder. Maybe it is a side effect.
Manifold has arrived at last. Should have that on tomorrow so we'll know for sure.
Regards,
Jim
UPDATE: It's not the manifold. While the stainless manifold has added a nice lump of midrange torque the annoying tick remains. The tick is there only under throttle/load.
Could there be a pin hole in the cat pipe under the heat shields? Could the heat shields themselves be creating this noise? Some of the bolts on the heats hold are in bad shape.
Knackered tappets/followers?
Never in my experience of attending to my own cars have I come across a problem like it. I'm open to suggestions, I'm completely through with this problem.
Regards,
Jim
Main cat Heat shields Can make a rattling noise usually around 2500 to 3000 revs. Very annoying rattle does for all the world sound like its Coming from the engine. Jumbo Jubilee clips around them cures it.
I had considered this but it's at all rpm when revved. I can't imagine heat shields making a ticking noise!?!? Worth a try though!
Anyone know of a spark plug(s) coming loose on these engines? A quick gooogle of "engine ticking causes" throws up a large number of results for loose spark plugs on various marques. Thoughts?
Regards,
Jim
You say you had new flexi's welded on.. If it is blowing, it sounds to me like the welding has warped the mating surface of the flange. Even when torqued up there could be a gap that would never be closed? Also could be exaggerated when the pipe is hot or cold? Maybe why the smoke test didn't show anything up?
I gutted my pre cat and didn't notice any change in noise really, especially not a tapping noise.
Keep us posted
Interesting thought manifold was it.
It's not the spark plugs either!!! Another £12 wasted. I'm convinced it's got something to do with the flexi joints that were welded in. A pin hole? Either way, I'm so close to part-exing this car....the stress is breaking me.
Regards,
Jim
Injectors? They are known to 'tick' when knackered? Surely this would be accompanied by an engine management light if failing?
I may be paranoid about timing systems but ticks for me have been associated with the timing system.
I noticed your comment on another thread and so it would seem this is an area you haven't yet considered.
Last weekend I changed the auxiliary drive belt and the chain tensioner O ring seal.
The belt tensioner was fine but the belt was obviously cracked at around 60k to be expected.
The O ring leak was apparent and is in close proximity to the belt tensioner and could be mistaken for a leak from the CHAIN (edit) tensioner !?
Could it be that it is the CHAIN (edit) tensioner that is malfunctioning, causing the chain to loose some tension and cause a tick?
For sure I know timing chains tick and just maybe that is what is happening with your 2.
That sounds plausible, however, I've had a smoke generator on the car and there are no leaks. The generator has a bung which goes in the tail pipe and is sealed. It pumps white smoke in and will escape at any point not making a seal. Not even a whiff of smoke came out.
I am tempted by a new cat. Shame they're so bloody expensive!!!
Jim
To check the tensioner would cost £0.00.and would get that out of the way.
The tensioner seems to be a hydraulic action. When removed the piston is extended. To reinstall a catch is depressed and the piston pushed in and retained with a latch to install. Installing releases the latch and the piston extends. So if you do this with the tensioner off the car, depress the plunger (some oil squirts out), engage the latch and then release it. If the piston extends I guess the tensioner is working.
If it is not working a replacement is around £30.00
I had considered a timing chain tensioner. However, if you rev the car slowly and gradually build the revs rather than blip the throttle, there is no noise (that I can tell). As soon as you 'load' the engine, the sound is obvious.
Is it a fairly easy job? Access doesn't look great, if I'm honest!!!
easy job. Remove clip from adjacent O2 sensor and let cable hang down.
10mm socket on extension and move nuts to just short of stud ends.
Straight screwdriver between block and flange of tensioner to lever flange off the block.
When it goes it will pop back towards you, hence reason to leave nuts on.
Remove nuts and pull put tensioner.
You will see a piston with a rack machined into it also what looks like a gate lach.
The piston should be out when you remove it. There is a rectangular button device which must be depressed while you push in the piston, it may squirt oil at you! When fully depressed put the latch onto the pin.
I suggest remove the latch and if the piston extends then the tensioner is working.
To replace, repeat above push and latch procedure and enter tensioner into the block with latch upwards.
Push in towards block and replace nuts tightening progressively to overcome the O ring friction.
I understand a click should be heard when the catch releases, I don't hear very well and so I removed a the tensioner again to find that it had released.
torque is 8 INCH pounds.
Do not overtighten .
There is an illustrated how to on spyderchat but i'mnot good with links
Wow, a very thorough guide! Thankyou for taking the time to type all that out!
I take it, firstly remove the auxbelt by levering the tensioner forwards, get the belt off (needs replacing anyway) then do what you said above?
Definitely a job for the weekend!
Many thanks,
Jim
No! It's easier than it sounds it's a 2 min job.
It doesn't affect the aux belt. It's just a tensioner assembly which goes in the front of te block, looking at the exhaust manifold it's just to the right.
Hang on, I think we're getting mixed up between timing chain and aux belt tensioner a here! The item you describe to the right of the manifold is the aux belt tensioner, the other that Joesson describes is the timing chain tensioner?!?!?
I'm talking about the timing chain tensioner, as is Joesson
A picture paints a 1000 words - had a quick google. The two are effectively next to one another. 2 nuts against an oval-ish plate!
Apologies - stressed!!!
Regards,
Jim
Thanks Meeerrk, I've had my eye of this ball for a while.
Hope you are OK now Jim, as you say the chain tensioner is an ovalish plate and it is tucked away and you have to be looking for it to notice it.
They two tensioners are very close to each other hence my thoughts about the leak.
It took me longer than 2 minutes but I de rusted and painted the flange before replacing it!
When you replace the auxiliary drive belt look for trevsMr2 post on here.
He did the post from memory, I did this on Sunday and can edit trev as follows.
I found it necessary to move the charcoal filter.
Get the correct belt one is for basic car another longer belt is for car with air con which has an extra pulley for the compressor.
Use a 6 point (I found a 12/multipoint socket started to round the nut off) 19 mm socket and a long wrecking bar on the cast "nut".
You need to PUSH to relieve the belt tensioner.
The bar needs to be as far back as you can get it and you will be touching the rubber seal on the engine compartment frame when the tensioner is relieved enough to replace the belt.
I borrowed son- in-law to do the pushing while I fitted the belt as I could not do both.
As trev says sketch out the belt run as it is a tortuous route!
I pinched the belt together just below half way and then put the pinch between the idler pullies and the resultant belt loop over the crank pulley.
I ended up as trev says with the alternator pulley but could not push and fit the belt solo.
Thanks again guys. I'll do the timing chain tensioner check this evening when I get a free 30 mins/a break in the weather as I'm at work. I'll eliminate that first, if it's not a chain issue i'll move to the belt and check all pulleys/idlers for rough play - this will have to wait until the weekend.
After that, I'll go for a new cat pipe in case the flange has been warped when welding-in the new flexis. I can cash-in the original Toyota cat at one of the local scrappies to off set the cost a little. I can sell the decatted original manifold (replaced with a stainless mani in error) to recoup more cash. After that I think it must be the cam/followers.
I did a video on my phone today but Photobucket just gives me errors - it uploads 'successfully' but then can't find the video it's just uploaded!!?
Regards,
Jim
All is well with the tensioner! Was tricky getting to unlatch when placed back into the engine but I managed it by wind ing the nuts all the way down then backing them off leaving a 1mm gap between nut and plate. A few light taps with a hammer later, the plate had the sprung feel I was after, nipped up the nuts....done.
We can strike chain tension off as an issue.
Thanks guys,
Jim
Sorry that didn't resolve the issue.
But as a positive it is another item off your list.
I'd like to think that it isn't (engine) life threatening! But I sympathise that it is being so elusive.
I once said to Redarrow: perseverance is the best tool in the box. I think it applies in this case!
That's fine mate, I was happy to explore the engine a little further than what I'm familiar with. Changed the oil again (it was due) with 5w40 but made no difference. When I changed the plugs, i checked the coilpack-end of the plug to see if there were signs of spark-jump but none were found.
Will bang my head a bit more.
Regards,
Jim
Had the car over to an independant Toyota specialist in Lincoln today for an expert-ear. The technicians' immediate reaction was "exhaust leak, definately!" After I'd told him the long list of expense, he then said it would be worth checking the cam/follower clearances - the rocker gasket needs replacing any way so will be the perfect opportunity to do this. I'm sure i've seen a guide somewhere? TDC on no1, measure so many, then TDC on no4 and check the others?
Otherwise, I have a new main cat arriving tomorrow. I have little faith in the fitment of the repaired item. Got a new auxiliary belt to put on too. After these have been replaced and should it not fix it, it really will be part-ex time.
Kind Regards,
Jim
I freely, & fully, admit that I have not read this thread.
If you have installed non-standard parts, why should you expect them to work well?
The only non standard parts are the flexi joints, and now the che style manifold. All gaskets have been OEM Toyota or aftermarket- makes no difference.
Regards,
Jim
Quote from: "1ZZ-FE"Banging my head against a brick wall here guys! Since having the entire exhaust off to do other jobs including pre cat removal
Just to be clear here, was the 'tick' there before you did this?
When I bought the car as a project, many things needed seeing too. One of which was the flexi joints - one had totally snapped away, the other had cracked welds so was blowing, making an absolute racket when I got it, so can't really compare.
The back end is on axle stands at the moment. I've replaced the main cat pipe which bizarrely, fits better than the OEM, in my opinion, although it wouldn't work with the aftermarket manifold - just couldn't get the flexis that protrude into the bottom of the mani to 'slot' together, so went back to the OEM decatted manifold. Fit is perfect. I started it up briefly, there does seem to be an improvement. I'll know tomorrow when I drop it down and go for a spin.
Regards,
Jim
[youtube:25iuk2kt]li2lQj1rHlo[/youtube:25iuk2kt]
FIXED!!! AT LONG F***ING LAST ITS FIXED!!! So the cat pipe was indeed the cause. I can only assume, as someone kindly suggested, the flange was warped from welding the new flexis in!? The relief is unreal.
Many thanks to all that contributed!!!
Regards,
Jim
So pleased for you. :-) :-) :-)
Pleased for you mate. Didn't want you to bin your 2.
Happy motoring.
Excellent news. Glad you got it sorted. s:) :) s:)
Thanks guys. Thanks to the members, 've learned so much about the car over the past few months. I honestly believe I could take that exhaust system apart blindfolded!!
Ideally, I'd like a late facelift with 2zz power for next summer. Looks like an easy swap.
Regards,
Jim
Great news s:D :D s:D
Just in time to enjoy some top-down, back road twisty, getting-sun-burned action!
That perseverance triumphs again, pleased for you.
She sounds great. Idles fine, no issues with the heat etc. I'm utterly ruined. My sunburn is such that without my t-shirt on, I look like a Drumstick lolly!
Jim
Excellent news s:) :) s:)
Definitely work towards the 2zz for next summer. You'll love it! And yeah it's an easy swap! s:) :) s:)
I've got a bit of an exhaust leak around the cat to manifold. I have bought new studs and gaskets to replace the 3 amigos.
The middle amigo seems to have been replaced by a nut and bolt at some point. The nuts have come off leaving the studs on the others 2.
How do I get the remaining 2 studs out and the new ones in?
Thanks
Quote from: "Two's Company"I've got a bit of an exhaust leak around the cat to manifold. I have bought new studs and gaskets to replace the 3 amigos.
The middle amigo seems to have been replaced by a nut and bolt at some point. The nuts have come off leaving the studs on the others 2.
How do I get the remaining 2 studs out and the new ones in?
Thanks
There are various methods, I would try the two nuts locked together method; get two nuts of the correct thread, screw them onto the stud, tighten them against each other and the stud should wind out.
Soak it in plus gas first though (for a few days if possible)
I tackled this today and the stud which was replaced by a bolt won't thread in. I guess it must have been drilled out at some point. Options?