Sean,
So you have the money now to go turbo, so what have you got in mind?
Are you honestly holding out for the TTE, or you got your eye on another kit? Or is it top secret (and i don't mean their kit s:roll: :roll: s:roll: ) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Won't be TTE, I can tell you that much.
HASS turbo looks to be the one to go for IMO, although im gonna wait 6 months and if there are any issues arise...
Not disagreeing with you at all but why do you think it's the 1 you'd go for.
This is just a gathering of opinions so don't think i'm against your opinion. In fact i think i actually agree with you if only they brought an IC out with it now, not a future plan.
May get this all moved to performance section if anyone else would like to chip in with their opinions on the current turbo kits available and their preference.
better move it then matey s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
PE
tried and tested, much more than any competition, also now comes with an IC option which was long awaited.
Stafford Fabrications
not the greatest of reputations with the celica community, and they have had dealings with them for a long time (very poor aftersales)
Supercharger
I know a few people who have gone for this option in the past and they have all blown their engines at some point, always a big learning curve and although better power across the range, inc top speed increases, laways costs lots of dosh in the end
HASS
very much in its infancy and no IC plans at present, would want to see this kit working well on a good few cars for a lengthy period of time before I would have been willing to go for this option personally
TTE
too much protracted secrecy from those supposedly in the know and no public announcement of a pending release date still. power figures initially discussed do not seem to merit such great expense, especially power is addictive and low bhp/boost will soon become boring, mark my words!
Boosting a car is not an everyday thing and consequently will not in reality be undertaken by many. IMHO If you want a boosted car with full manufacturers back up etc, you really should look at buying a 'sports car' that goes fast in the first place. The Roadster in reality is not that kind of animal, unless of course you make some drastic changes to its power output, then and only then is it truly a 'Sports car'
I do not regret turbo'ing my roadster at all, however, without the back up and prior knowledge gained by the likes of Darren and Ian it could have well been a nightmare! So, if your seriously considering one of the untried options then I would advise you to keep an emrgency fund in reserve in case you have any unforseen problems
All of the above is of course only my opinion (as requested), however compared with many people here who claim to be knowledgable on the subject, I HAVE actually turbo'd my car and I'm not just repeating various snippets read on spyderchat or at clandestine 'TTE Turbo' meetings s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
When it comes down to it, its your money, your car, nobody else matters s:D :D s:D
The HASS turbo, supposedly puts out at least 185bhp at the wheels. is an intercooler essential? ive read that you only require an IC (and bigger injectors) if you tune more power out of it.
surely they wouldnt sell the kit if it NEEDED an intercooler? or some other cooling solution?
The only 1 they have built so far is cooled with WI, not uncooled. I don't personally think at 6.5psi, which is about the psi you'll need for that kinda power, cooling is essential. It's just so much less worry with some sort of cooling as it does really get hot back there.
I know i ran for a year at that psi with no WI or IC, zero problems. So it isn't essential your right, just depends on what power your after.
For peace of mind though an IC or WI is nice to have, just hope they include one soon for not much more $$$'s
i wouldnt want to jump in at the deepend running high boost anyway. so 185whp which is about 215bhp at the fywheel is plenty for me to start with as its 75bhpo more than stock already!
idealy i would like to be running around 230-250bhp (flywheel) would water injection be enough to stay reliable?
WI is as efficient if not more than an IC(in our mid engine position), it just isn't as pratical. ie having to refill it and always keeping an eye on it that it's pumping.
WI is all i'm running at 9psi now, so it is definately reliable for cooling higher boost.9psi is about the pressure needed for your ideal bhp, it's amazing what 230bhp+ feels like in the '2. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
i cant even imagine. i just wanna see the look on a scooby drivers face when i rip past!
i know the water only comes out in little droplets and is supplied from your screen wash tank right? id say my driving style was about 85% normal and 15% flooring it, how often would i need to refill my water tank? can you still use the tank to spray your windshield?
btw, hoow bad was it on your insurance? and do you tell them everytime you knotch the boost up s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
sory for so many questions.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
In response to Perry's comments which I'm sure were said with a smile, I'd just like to add for the record.
1. He's right all the thoery in the world doesn't prepare you for teh real world of actually doing it, fixing it, living it. As I know through the months talking to Martin in the infancy of his install :-) :-) :-)
2. The TTE Turbo
Whatever impression may have been given over the months, everyting we know about the kit from discussions/meetings with TTE has been made public to you guys. There have been off the record comments which happen whenever you talk anybody, which include opinion, speculation, conclusion, some of it which you wouldn't say in public about people or companies, which in the interest of discretion and respect for those we have spoken to we have chosen not to repeat, any of which comments you guys may or may not have also heard at JAE when you had teh chance to talk to TTE in person. However anything concrete, with regard to pricing, testing, availability e.t.c, if we know, you guys know.
As a long time advocate of the TTE Turbo, would I buy one? Maybe. Theres a lot of if's still around,
Definative cost?
Definative kit parts?
Definative date for release, or even will it get final go ahead?
Warranty?
Will it be a TTE only option or officially sanctioned by TMC?
While TTE have in their minds what they'd like to do, and you guys are aware of as much as we are, will they ultimately by their own commercial guys, or TMC be allowed to do everything they want, who knows?
If you get teh warranty, if your happy with teh power output, if you want fire and forget reliability, then yes this is probably the kit for you. Always assuming you have the patience to wait for it.
Would I buy one? biggest issue for me is will I be happy with the power? Having driven it, it's definately how the roadster should have been all along. But I can't help feeling I'd want more oomph eventually, and once at that point the bear minimum I'd need would be a new piggyback ECU, and all of the advantages for buying it in teh first place would then be void.
Other Turbo options
Would I buy PE? tempting as it's proven, and MWR now do an intercooler. Your choice as to whether you beleive it necessary, but for me it's essential.
Would I buy SF, maybe, seems like a comprehensive kit for teh money, but the lack of ECU piggyback bothers me, enough not to buy one? I don't have enough info to make teh call yet. But they do have a mixed reputation.
Would I buy the HASS Kit, Tempting, no-ones had anything particularly bad to say about it as yet, (OK only one running, but I meant about the specs, statements e.t.c) Log manifold? nothing wrong with that if done right, Intercooler, is supposed to be coming but would need to be available for me to buy. They appear to know what they are doing and Jon Volks involvment gives me confidence as he's done some pretty mental turbo stuff over teh years. If anyone has any negatives about teh kit I'd be interested to hear.
All said one of the biggest things on my issues list at present is a complete kit. The ability to say I have bought xxxx turbo kit and it includes everything. I know from conversations with quite a few insurance companies lately that the fewer mods you need to declare the better. Mainly because most brokers and underwriters don't have a clue what your talking about.
If I can say kit, and cover off turbo, ecu, intercooler, exhaust, injectors and all associated stuff without having to itemise each bit so much teh better.
Now if MWR would sell teh PE complete with all ancillaries bundleD as a MWR kit I'd be equally interested.
Quote from: "perry190"Supercharger...
inc top speed increases
I believe I've 'proved' (or at least satisified myself) that with any FI application, top speed is (easily) going to be limited by gearing, not power output.
Quote from: "perry190"TTE
too much protracted secrecy from those supposedly in the know...
Speaking personally, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells regarding some of the information that TTE tell me: it's not always clearly defined what is public and what isn't. It could be argued that everything said to me must be inheritantly public, but I'd much rather err on the side of caution. Although I wasn't present at the time, I was aware that Gerald was speaking very freely regarding the current state of development at JAE, certainly more so than I would have expected. I did try and make the point on the news paper that everyone was free to go up and ask questions direct.
Quote from: "Tomr2"surely they wouldnt sell the kit if it NEEDED an intercooler? or some other cooling solution?
'Need' is not black and white. Bit like a turbo waste-gate - do you *need* one for it to work? Nope. Do you want your engine to last? Well, maybe it might be a good thing to have.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Decent IC's aren't cheap especially since they need to be oversized to make sure they have enough airflow to cool them. Obviously keeping the initial $$ down makes it more attractive to potential purchasers.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"9psi is about the pressure needed for your ideal bhp
Fighting talk! I run at ½bar (~7½psi); I did have it accidentally boosting to almost double that but I can't say I noticed all that much difference and I never dyno'd it at that. I'm happy where I am and that's all matters. YMMV s:) :) s:)
with the little airflow the '2 gets to cool the engine surely water injection would be a lot more efficient and cheaper?
how much is the PE kit by the way?
cheaper yes,
more efficient, not really if your intercooler is sized and located correctly.
better? all a matter of opinion.
it is a fact that water is 30 times more effecient at transfering heat than air, but the more water you spray into the turbo, the more often you're gonna keep needing to refilling the tank, plus you've got the danger of running out of water and not knowing?
dont think ive seen a pic of '2 with an intercooler. is it horizontal mounted or vertical?
I haven't used the screen wash bottle, i've customed up a bottle that fits behind the drivers side rear light. The screen wash bottle being at the front and the pump having to move the water to the back , i personally feel its testing the pump too much, but yes you can still use the washers as usual.
The bottle i have takes about 1.5litres(i think) and i fill it about once every couple of weeks, the washer bottle is massive in comparison so it'll last ages.
Insurance wasn't that bad but i'm over 30 now s:oops: :oops: s:oops: They never asked when i told them i had a turbo what the power output now was, so i take it i can output what i like!
Mark, your opinions basically echo everyone else i have spoke to thoughts.But if you want a complete kit you know now what is needed, so you don't really need MWR or anyone else to bundle it all together as a kit, you can order the parts to suit your needs.
Basically upto 4.5psi any kit
upto 7psi any kit with a piggy back ECU or PFC(ok Tem s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
7psi+ kit, ECU,IC/WI,injectors
De cat or high flow cats and exhaust aren't a must and are eay to sort out if not included in a kit.
Martin, ive never dynoed so i'm only speculating at 230bhp at 9psi. The MWR IC is nearly here, when it is i''m testing the PE to it's max(or maybe my engine). You mentioned before that you were boosting to 1bar by mistake, i'm sure if you were you'd notice the difference from that and 7.5psi. I do from 6.5 to 9psi. From Matt at MWR he says he couldn't boost past 12psi without it dropping to 10psi at high revs, could it of been your guage?
Quote from: "Tomr2"it is a fact that water is 30 times more effecient at transfering heat than air, but the more water you spray into the turbo, the more often you're gonna keep needing to refilling the tank, plus you've got the danger of running out of water and not knowing?
dont think ive seen a pic of '2 with an intercooler. is it horizontal mounted or vertical?
1.Yes.
2.Yes the more you boost the more it goes down. As a safety measure i've got a float in the bottle that lights a LED on the dash when i'm low on water.
3. The IC i'm getting and Martin has is a water/air IC as pictured here m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_inter ... mr2_s.html (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_intercooler_kit_toyota_mr2_s.html) m
correct I could build my own at thsi point,
insurance proved a pain at renewal though, I have no where near teh mods, you , Perry, or Martin has and I was hitting some major issues with having too many mods.
I I could blanket it all under one then life would be easier, DIG aside there was £400 between those who would allow any mods and those that wouldn't.
does the intercooler replace your radiator?
$1200 is well out of my price league...
Intercooler, may air to air, in which case goes in the engine bay, air to water likely sits in front of your rad up front, though basically anywhere you can get good air flow to it.
yep, with a chargecooler the pre-rad goes at the front, in front of the oem rad The cold air passes through the pre-rad to the oem rad.
The main advantage of the chargecooler method rather than WI is that its is cooling all the time (unless stationary), not just when boosting at the set limit for your WI.
Air charge temps can get very very high in the engine bay and consequently this has a detremental effect on perfomance and engine safety. I have two temp gauges, one reading from the MAF and the other just before the plenum, the temps rise at extreme rates when cruising on the motorway on a hottish day and your of course not boosting at all at this point.
As an example a GT4 rally model will expect air charge temps around the 30 degC mark when racing about, and when sitting stationary they wouldnt push the engine if the temps had risen above 40deg C
Temps in the roadster at cruising speed on the motorway are often in the 65deg C range, and thats without boosting! so an chargecooler is a mucg better overall option than WI as it is constant.
Ian and I will be running both a chargecoller and WI, so we will be expecting to see much lower temps all the time and even more when boosting (and WI comes on)
Insurance
I informed DIG that I was fitting a turbo kit and the expected bhp, that was all the detail they required. Additional premium was £26 s:D :D s:D but saying that my car was already heavily modded and I am an old bugger.
I should add that it doesnt matter how fast your 'two' goes, you will get used to it in no time at all and want more! (its a drug!!)
but saying that, when the old boxter cant keep up, it does feel good s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Perry, Interesting comment ref DIG, did you just say I'm fittign a turbo kit, period? or did you include the bigger injector, aquamist, emanage e.t.c? did you tell them teh value?
I think my words were:-
"Yes its me again! I'm looking to fit a Power Enterprise turbo kit to the car and wanted to know how much my premium is likely to go up.
DIG: "what power is it going to be once done?"
"Initially I'm looking at about 190bhp which is the same as my old celica of course, but its unclear what it will be once its all tuned properly etc"
DIG: "whos fitting it"
"I'll be doing the electrics and ancillaries but the toyota main desler that originally supplied the car will be doing the mechanicals"
DIG: "you only have 2 months left and your premium wont rise for the remaining period, we cant tell how much it will go up untill renewal time"
Renewal letter came through, up £26. so quick call to DIG to check if this includes the turbo conversion to be told yes it does.
The fact that at the beginning of the 12 months I had a heavilly modded (cosmetic) celica 190 which is a higher insurance group than the roadster anyway probs helped offset the renewal cost, but either way I'm happy s:D :D s:D
DIG do seem inconsistant at the mo on mods and wont insure a lot of people for much less mods or offer renewals at sometimes double the cost of the previous year.
I made no mention of the kit breakdown, just that ot was a 'turbo kit', obviously the kit and all the ancillaries to work in unison (apart from injectors) are available from Monkeywrench
The injectors although a different colour are a toyota part just not standard in the roadster (celica 190). I will be writing to them shortly to inform them of my new wheels, strut bar and custom engine lid, but as is the joy of my present policy I dont expect to see any rise in premium for these added items
insurance is individual and as such you wont really know what the likey cost will be until you ask the question of course
good luck tho matey
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"3. The IC i'm getting and Martin has is a water/air IC as pictured here m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_inter ... mr2_s.html (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_intercooler_kit_toyota_mr2_s.html) m
Slight correction - mine is a custom job as it predates the MWR by a couple of years but it is essentially very similar. Their front rad seems to have significantly different dimensions (mine's smaller) but I'm sure they've done all the maths s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "perry190"I should add that it doesnt matter how fast your 'two' goes, you will get used to it in no time at all and want more! (its a drug!!)
I seem to be disagreeing with everyone alot lately, huh. Since it's been set up at ½bar, I haven't felt the inclination to want more. No doubt the turbo makes straight lines disappear but IMO it doesn't make serious cornering any easier.
I think ians ref to the MWR site was to show what barrel type A/W charge cooler set ups looks like rather than yours specifically, the MWR set up seems to have significantly shorter pipe runs than yours, at least as far as I can see from the pics of yours anyway s:? :? s:?
on the 'more power' side this is of course a personal thing, but is without doubt the case with the majority of custom boosted guys I know, which is quite a few s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I'm glad your happy with your power output, at least you wont be spending any more dosh for ever seeking that little bit more s:D :D s:D happy for ya s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
As said i was just showing a similar product to what you have Martin, not implying it was that one.
I'm with Perry on the power.I'm happy running at 9psi but i do feel sometimes i want more as, dare i say it, it feels slow s:roll: :roll: s:roll: Can't even remember what a stock '2 feels like.
Martin you probably disagree as you drive the car "as it was meant" and on the track i appreciate more power in the corners doesn't help. Were just power junkies in need of a quick street fix s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
yep s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Sorry, just had to chime in here s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Tomr2"it is a fact that water is 30 times more effecient at transfering heat than air
Yes it is - but don't forget that by spraying it into the incoming air, you are replacing part of your combustible mixture with water on each stroke - theoretically meaning less power.. Actually it doesn't work out like that, because it lets you run more boost and/or cools the mix down
but if you were to get a bit heavy handed with the water it would have detrimental effects. (Put enough in and you'd hydrolock the engine, but I think you'd have trouble managing that through an atomising jet).
I've nothing against WI - indeed I keep thinking about it on the 'other' car, but I'll be uprating the IC's first.. You think $1200 is expensive - 300 IC's are that each.. and there's two.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Tomr2"does the intercooler replace your radiator?
I can't believe nobody has picked up on this.
NO it doesn't replace your radiator s:) :) s:)
The radiator cools the coolant that's flowing around the engine - it does that by passing the water through a big finned metal heatsink (the rad).
An intercooler cools the air that's coming out of the turbo and is on it's way to the engine - it does that by passing the air through a big finned metal heatsink - it's just like a radiator, only the passages are bigger, essentially.
A water/air intercooler, or chargecooler, cools the air that's coming out of the turbo, but it does it by passing the air through what is effectively an intercooler submerged in water - meaning the heat from that air is bled off into the water. That water is constantly circulated around a closed system which includes
another radiator - usually mounted in front of the cars normal radiator - and the heat from the water is then dissipated out through that radiator.
The chargecooler vs. intercooler debate is usually a hotly contested one - although in our cars I'd say the chargecooler is going to be much better than an intercooler, if only from an ease of installation point of view - you don't have to think so much about where you put it, because the bit that's doing the eventual cooling (the secondary rad) will always be up front in nice clean, cool airflow.
(Tests on other cars, usually front engined, have shown that intercoolers work just as well when the car is moving, but a chargecooler usually keeps the intake charge cooler when the car is stationary, reducing the initial hot influx of air when you stamp on the loud pedal).
IMHO, YMMV etc s;) ;) s;)
Aaron
I think the rad question was covered in my statement that "the pre-rad goes in front of the oem radiator" s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
the replacement of fuel by water no matter how miniscule is covered by using a mixture in your bottle rather than straight water, this upping the octane slightly if thats your preference
as we've all said charge coolers are the preference to WI if at all possible and if used in conjunction the water added will be even less (only at higher boost
however good points raised there matey s:D :D s:D
not familiar with a 'charge cooler' anyone got a pic to show me? who sells them?
That link to MWR page i posted is a chargecooler. Basically a water/air IC is also known as a chargecooler.
Quote from: "perry190"I think the rad question was covered in my statement that "the pre-rad goes in front of the oem radiator" s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I guess.. but I hate ambiguity s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Tomr2"not familiar with a 'charge cooler' anyone got a pic to show me? who sells them?
As mr-s_turbo says, MWR sell them, Pace also manufacture them in this country.. there's not much to look at, mind:
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/ricc/pics/univ_dim.gif
For a nice overview of all the parts of a system go to http://www.paceproducts.co.uk click to 'Go to our website', then choose "Radiators/Intercoolers/Chargecoolers" at the top, and drill down to 'Anatomy of a Chargecooler'.
Be warned, that's the worst website in the
universe and if you go to any other page on their website first, you won't be able to get to the relevant page without going right back to the start s:? :? s:?
charge coolers look to me as if they will give you a slight lag when boosting. let me get this straight, the turbo spools up and then the warm air from the turbo then has to go right the way through a radiator and is cooled before it can get into the engine? how much are they btw?
Quote from: "Tomr2"charge coolers look to me as if they will give you a slight lag when boosting. let me get this straight, the turbo spools up and then the warm air from the turbo then has to go right the way through a radiator and is cooled before it can get into the engine?
Given identical pipework, no more than an intercooler will add. All a chargecooler (or to give it it's other name, a water/air intercooler) is, is an intercooler sealed into a tank of water..
The air comes out of the turbo, through the core of the chargecooler and on to the engine. The heat from the air is drawn out and into the water surrounding the chargecooler core, and then the water (not the air) is pumped around a radiator system to cool it back down.
With an air/air intercooler, the air comes out of the turbo, through the core of the intercooler (which will be almost identical to the core of the chargecooler, it's just not sealed in a tank of water) and on to the engine.
In reality, I think you could build a chargecooler setup with less lag than an intercooler, given our engine bay layout - the pipework for an air/air intercooler would be quite convoluted in order to position the intercooler in cool airflow. With a chargecooler, the box (containing the core and water) can go anywhere, as it doesn't need to be in cool airflow - the cooling is provided by the water circuit and secondary radiator thats at the front of the car.
Quotehow much are they btw?
Depends where you buy one from.. s:) :) s:) Short answer is, I have no idea, but probably comparable to, possibly a little more than, an air/air intercooler.
HTH,
Aaron
Lag wise the charge cooler is more efficient, on our setup that is. The chargecooler sits in line of the original flow whereas the air/air has to go off on a bend somewhere to get to the IC placement near cool air flow, then it has to come back . Causes some lag.
The original MWR post i did had the picture of the chargecooler on the top left hand side in the first picture, and the heat exchange infront of the rad on the second. The price is there too. m http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_inter ... mr2_s.html (http://monkeywrenchracing.com/mwr_intercooler_kit_toyota_mr2_s.html) m
conclusion: if i invest in a turbo, i dont think im running above 6.5 psi, cant be bothered with the hassle/extra cost of cooling...
IMO it doesn't matter what pressure you're at - a turbo will add (significant) heat to the intake air. I'd say some form of cooling is essential.
btw has TTE ever announce that they will include an IC/other cooling application?...
Quote from: "Tomr2"btw has TTE ever announce that they will include an IC/other cooling application?...
The TTE kit has an air-air intercooler mounted in front of the gearbox.
Mmmm there will be some loss of power there then due to the extended piping from the turbo via the IC to the inlet, one thing the PE does have going for it is that the piping from turbo to inlet is the most direct route possible, also as said the charge cooler method is more efficient on our particular set up due to heat loss from the water both at the pre-rad and the piping running the full length of the car (water pipe).
I spent about 3 hours at PACE with the guy who designed the c/cooler for the VX220 application and he said to place an intercooler low enough down to get any significant cooling even with an air scoop would retract from the turbos power due to losses from the pipe run
All I can say for sure is that if I drive my car early on a nice cold morning she feels twice as responsive as on a hot day s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D , so the more cooling we can get the better, no matter what the route as long as power loss isnt a bi-product s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
even N/A, the 2 doesnt feel half as responsive on a hot day as it does on a nice cold dense morning! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: