Hi guys
Only had my MR2 about 2 months and my big end has gone, I've been advised not to drive it.
It's a 52 plate early facelift in otherwise mint condition with 74k miles.
Four options I can see:
1 - Basic rebuild service drive in, drive out - £800
2 - MattPerformance rebuild - £1300 (this was a tailored quote for my particular needs - he offers a few options)
3 - 2ZZ swap - £2000 minimum
4 - break the car/sell it as it is and buy another
A basic rebuild or breaking the car would cut my losses but I'd still need to buy another car which could have the same problems..
How much would a Matt rebuild or a 2zz swap add to residual values? As an enthusiast how much extra would you pay for a car with either of these?
Any suggestions welcome!
Sorry to hear about your troubles nightmare!
It depends on your wallet and requirements.
I would go either for Matts rebuild or a 2zz.
I trust Matt so would rather have his services rather than anyone else's on my 2.
2zz if you want more performance and like reving the nuts off your engine.
Form the performance increase think 2zz isn't great value for money unless you're doing the spanner work yourself.
I am biased I like my turbo.
I love my 2 couldn't break it or sell it.
Best of luck.
Thank you for the reply
I used to have an Exige which had the 2zz engine and I'm certainly a fan of the high revving nature. However I had engine failure on that too (thought Toyota were suppoosed to be reliable?) so I'd be worried about having the same problems again in the MR2 - by which point the total bill is getting ridiculous. At least with the Matt rebuild I could have some worry free motoring.
I'm very impressed with the MR2 but my main reason for not breaking with would be the £1000 worth of modifications I've just fitted!
Hi mate,
Sorry to hear you're having some issues. s:( :( s:(
My 2p worth is that none of them will particularly increase the value of the car. The 2zz might add a bit but being realistic probably not what you'll pay to get it in there in the first place.
In my opinion if you intend to keep the car then a MattPerformance rebuild would be my number one choice. You'll end up with a solid car and a drive-in/drive-out rebuild probably won't be as thorough in sorting out the 1zz to the same degree. Plus, Matt's name attached will certainly hold weight with people in this club for example if/when you come to sell it.
Personally I don't support breaking them unless there is much more significant damage, especially as you describe it as a mint condition example. If you did want to move on I'd much rather see the rolling chassis going complete to someone who is looking to do an engine swap etc...
Andy
+1
I agree with the above. I had the same dilemma as you though the idea of 2 zz never entered my mind. I opt for a low mileage running engine from a what was mint 05 plate car that had been written off. Saw engine running checked oil etc bought. With injector, inlet manifold, newish clutch, all ancillaries £ 500.00
Changed oil and filters changed auxillary tensioner and belts and pulleys decat the precat, Altogether just over £1000 fitted.
The car now stands me £ 3700 as I keep finding jobs to do. Example radiator, brakes you have to give the cars plenty of TLC so my advice would be " Better the devil you Know" sort out what's at hand at your given budget and enjoy. s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Tom
Best of luck
Quote from: "Kong"Thank you for the reply
I used to have an Exige which had the 2zz engine and I'm certainly a fan of the high revving nature. However I had engine failure on that too (thought Toyota were suppoosed to be reliable?) so I'd be worried about having the same problems again in the MR2 - by which point the total bill is getting ridiculous. At least with the Matt rebuild I could have some worry free motoring.
I'm very impressed with the MR2 but my main reason for not breaking with would be the £1000 worth of modifications I've just fitted!
Modifications? Where is your thread?
Yea I'm leaing towards the 'better the devil you know' stance. I've had no luck with cars recently, bought a Z4 Coupe which lunched it's gearbox (£2,200), my Exige needed an engine rebuild for £4,000 and bought a tidy little MK4 Golf for pottering I even had to spend £800 getting that through it's MOT. So looks like the MR2 is maintaining form!
To be honest I only paid £1500 for it so + £1300 for a quality Matt rebuild + belts and a new clutch I'm looking at about £3000 all-in for a 'fully sorted' car. - if I use man maths I could be made to look ok :/
The modifications are just as per my signature, nothing too excitingjust trackday stuff - but I'd lose a fortune selling them off straight away s:( :( s:(
Based on those figures then I'd be even more tempted with the Matt option!
£3k for a sorted car you can trust is better than many people have. s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Kong"Yea I'm leaing towards the 'better the devil you know' stance. I've had no luck with cars recently, bought a Z4 Coupe which lunched it's gearbox (£2,200), my Exige needed an engine rebuild for £4,000 and bought a tidy little MK4 Golf for pottering I even had to spend £800 getting that through it's MOT. So looks like the MR2 is maintaining form!
To be honest I only paid £1500 for it so + £1300 for a quality Matt rebuild + belts and a new clutch I'm looking at about £3000 all-in for a 'fully sorted' car. - if I use man maths I could be made to look ok :/
The modifications are just as per my signature, nothing too excitingjust trackday stuff - but I'd lose a fortune selling them off straight away s:( :( s:(
Wow that's poor luck.
Definatley go for Matts rebuild you won't need any luck with that.
Same situation but a year down the line and big ends already done toyed with the idea of getting an engine but never pulled the trigger as could find the trust to buy something unknown, spoke to Matt on the weekend just gone about various options safe to say my car is going to him to be fixed
If I was in your position, I'd 2ZZ swap. It totally transforms the car into something interesting to a proper weapon.
I'm surprised you had a 2ZZ failure in your Exige. I have done ooooodles of research on the 2ZZ, and it's generally regarded as being pretty much bulletproof provided it's well maintained.
Quote from: "Alex Knight"If I was in your position, I'd 2ZZ swap. It totally transforms the car into something interesting to a proper weapon.
I'm surprised you had a 2ZZ failure in your Exige. I have done ooooodles of research on the 2ZZ, and it's generally regarded as being pretty much bulletproof provided it's well maintained.
And a baffled sump or dry sumped!
I wouldn't waste £1300 putting a 1zz in a roadster, especially as it's a track car as you have said.
I'd put that £1300 towards a 2zz conversion every day of the week
Is there a list of garages who do the 2zz swap? I'm slightly against the clock with an Alps driving holiday late July so can't afford to have it in bits all summer!
Bonsai Motorsport (in Alex's sig) are going to be my choice
Are there any 'drive in, drive out' prices for a garage to do the swap? Been looking through the Performance section and most people seem to be DIYing to some degree s:( :( s:(
Yeah bonsai. Drive both cars there, drive one epic one away s:D :D s:D
How much would you say is the total cost Meeerk?
Quote from: "Alex Knight"If I was in your position, I'd 2ZZ swap. It totally transforms the car into something interesting to a proper weapon.
I'm surprised you had a 2ZZ failure in your Exige. I have done ooooodles of research on the 2ZZ, and it's generally regarded as being pretty much bulletproof provided it's well maintained.
Not sure where you did the research Alex, I guess not on SELOC. Loads of engine problems with the 2zz in Lotuses, especially on track, and I mean LOADS. Plenty of problems with 1zz engines as we know, but this bulletproof label that is given to the 2zz is a myth.
Total cost depends on what options you go for. It can / will vary depending on many factors and choices, eg;
- manifold
- exhaust system
- how you approach the wiring
- sump
- ecu
- engine choice (on a pallet or buy a car and break the rest to recoup some money)
- LSD / gearbox choice
There is scope to do it for a couple of thousand, there is scope to spend over double that!
It's down Personal choice and budget.
Wild guess here - you're suggestion is to have the 1zz rebuilt ? s;) ;) s;)
My suggestion is to compare apples with apples so as to give people proper information with which to make a decision.
The MR2 has an LSD (vitally important if, as is the case here, we're talking track use) so that's a must, not an option. Same with a baffled sump.
The only fair comparison is to use the 'engine on a pallet' solution (if Kong, or anyone else is in a position to buy a car, break it etc etc they're not going to be phased by doing an engine swap on the MR2 so the £1300 1zz cost is not the right figure).
So, reading between the lines, it's probably fair to say that a professionally installed 2zz will cost close to £4k whereas a 1zz costs less than £1300.
I have no agenda (believe it or not) trying to convince people to stick with 1zz engines because I can just as easily start doing 2zz conversions but I simply don't think that a professionally installed 2zz is particularly good value (whereas I completely see the merits of a DIY install, breaking the donor car to get bits and recuperate costs etc)
Edited to say: don't forget that when using off the shelf swap over parts (manifold, ECU, stock cat) you won't see much above 170bhp from the 2zz
It's always a difficult call, Kong. I'd say if your car's bodywork is really sound then a rebuild makes sense.
However, I note your options include: 4 "...buy another." IF you decide you want to pursue this option then look me up on 'selling' . I live in North Yorkshire - just outside Skipton - and may be able to help?
It's personal preference at the end of the day. And budget.
If the guy wants to spend £1300 to have his engine rebuilt, then fine, but that only gets him back to square 1.
To then extract more power from that engine will realistically be FI, I guess your looking around £3000 for a used kit, fitted, maybe I don't know (?).
So the £1300 option isn't really directly compatible to the 2zz swap option because the 2zz is a big upgrade, whereas the 1zz is just getting the car back to original output.
To achieve 2zz performance with the 1zz rebuild + turbo etc it's probably similar costs.
See what I'm getting at?
Except that the 2zz isn't a "big" upgrade in my opinion. On a bangs-for-your-buck metric, the stock engine or a turbo conversion (bearing in mind that most of the cost of a conversion can be recuperated down the line) offer much better value for money. We need more cars out on track days together to find out just how much faster a 2zz engined car is (and even then there'll be loads of other variables).
I agree of course that it's a matter of personal preference but you need all the facts to make that decision, pretty much all of which I think have now been presented!
I'd say I have the means and the skills to break down a Corolla/Celica to get the parts and I have people around me who could help me do the 2ZZ swap. However I don't have the time for a big long project, I've got a Nurburgring/Alps trip on 24th of July. Plus having my Exige in bits all last summer I would actually like to be able to enjoy a sports car during the nice weather, so for this reason I'm leaning towards the 1ZZ rebuild as it will should get me back on the road sooner. I have left messages with two of the best know 2ZZ swap garages to get an idea of a cost/timescale but nobody has called me back - unlike Matt who gave up 30 minutes of his time the other day to give me advice. As is being discussed it's hard to get a true comparison, obviously a 2ZZ would be my ideal preference.
I can see your logic, time is against you.
To be fair I'm pleasantly surprised how well the mr2 with 1zz went on track but I would be lying if I said i wasn't going down the straights wishing I had more power!
Quote from: "MattPerformance"The MR2 has an LSD (vitally important if, as is the case here, we're talking track use) so that's a must, not an option.
Not sure I'd agree to be honest. My 2ZZ conversion is coming up to a year ago, and I'm still using the (open) Corolla diff. Sure, there were a few moments on track where it would have been beneficial (in the wet), but 98% of the time I don't miss it. Sure, it's preferable, but a must? Not in my opinion. Slidy stuff is still very much available (wet or dry).
(http://i60.tinypic.com/m8o079.jpg)
Quote from: "MattPerformance"don't forget that when using off the shelf swap over parts (manifold, ECU, stock cat) you won't see much above 170bhp from the 2zz
Have to respectfully disagree too. My car on the dyno recently: Stock cat, (restrictive & cheap) CHE manifold, Megan racing exhaust (again, not exactly free-flowing).
Result: 188HP
Nice results, well worth the effort especially as you got a donor car to break up for parts s:) :) s:)
That's an excellent picture!
Theres a Celica 190 on ebay that's finishing tonight that's on in Manchester. You could buy that and your nearly there.
This thread has become a bit of a 2zz vs 1zz battle hasn't it.
I think 2zz is a viable performance upgrade for those that can do the work themselves.
I think a 1zz rebuilt by matt is about as reliable a 1zz engine you'll get anywhere.
Have said this all before.
Will a 2zz conversion have been re built or are we just talking a swap?
Does the swap come with some form of warranty?
People here seem to think 2zz are much more reliable? Is that actually the case? The op had one go wrong on his elise.
Is the op wanting reliability or more performance or both?
Also will someone tell me exactly how much a drive in/out 2zz swap is?
Not diy job.
The biggest issue with the 1zz seems to be oil burning, leading to failures. From what i understand, that is caused by precat failure over time (I may be completely wrong, that's just my understanding from reading here)
2zz doesn't have precat so doesn't suffer. That said, it has it's own issues with oil pickup, hence the NEED for a baffled sump.
Swings and roundabouts really isn't it.
Normally, a 2zz engine conversion is a swap, not a rebuild before install.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Also will someone tell me exactly how much a drive in/out 2zz swap is?
Not diy job.
It's not that simple, due to all the options and owners preferences on the swap parts,
I've made a big spreadsheet with all options and the price varies from cheapest (diy, buying a cheap car, recoup money by breaking what's left, weighing in the shell for scrap, cheap manifold, reuse stock exhaust etc) all the way to mega expensive (buy a low mileage car for ultimate piece of mind, ppe exhaust system, power fc ECU, LSD, loom adaptors etc etc)
I think the price varies by about £3k.... s:) :) s:)
just to give you my 2p
my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,
and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done im still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO
shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine
cheers tommy
Quote from: "1979scotte"Is the op wanting reliability or more performance or both?
This is the question you should be asking yourself, then you'll know what to do when you decide
Quote from: "tommyzoom99"just to give you my 2p
my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,
and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO
shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine
cheers tommy
When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
This seems to be a bit of a thread hijack now s8) 8) s8) but TBH, I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz.
If you get a 2zz because you want more power I would guess, like with the 1zz, you wouldn't see much power over stock with just an exhaust, filter and map. After this, just like the 1zz, massive diminishing returns without going forced induction.
So you would spend 2k>4k on a 2zz engine & fitting down time and then 2k>4k again + down time to turbo it....
Could have just spent 2k>4k on turboing a 1zz and be at the same point?
From what I know (I have had a 2zz in the past) the stock blocks are almost the same but the bore size and heads that are different. So I would imagine the same result turboed is possible.
Also, as what's been pointed out already, tuning cars is a big drain hole when you come to sell it. Everything you spend will go down the pan. A very large % of people want a stock car due to insurance, potential bodge-jobs, servicing and reliability issues. so you're cutting off lots of penitential buyers by fitting a non-stock engine. This can be avoided if turboing a 1zz as you can remove it, sell the turbo kit making 50% of the cost back and then have a hell of a lot more penitential buyers.
If I were you, get matt to install one for you. Save the difference to spend on a holiday! Then get the turbocharger when you want a power hike.
Same difference in the long run, money back +more buyers on resale!
Quote from: "Mr X"This seems to be a bit of a thread hijack now s8) 8) s8) but TBH, I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz.
If you get a 2zz because you want more power I would guess, like with the 1zz, you wouldn't see much power over stock with just an exhaust, filter and map. After this, just like the 1zz, massive diminishing returns without going forced induction.
So you would spend 2k>4k on a 2zz engine & fitting down time and then 2k>4k again + down time to turbo it....
Could have just spent 2k>4k on turboing a 1zz and be at the same point?
From what I know (I have had a 2zz in the past) the stock blocks are almost the same but the bore size and heads that are different. So I would imagine the same result turboed is possible.
Also, as what's been pointed out already, tuning cars is a big drain hole when you come to sell it. Everything you spend will go down the pan. A very large % of people want a stock car due to insurance, potential bodge-jobs, servicing and reliability issues. so you're cutting off lots of penitential buyers by fitting a non-stock engine. This can be avoided if turboing a 1zz as you can remove it, sell the turbo kit making 50% of the cost back and then have a hell of a lot more penitential buyers.
Couldn't agree more. Thats why I did it.
If I were you, get matt to install one for you. Save the difference to spend on a holiday! Then get the turbocharger when you want a power hike.
Same difference in the long run, money back +more buyers on resale!
Quote from: "Mr X"I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz
I fitted a 2ZZ because it enhances the essential character of the car.
Lightweight Japanese sports cars and high-revving low torque 4-bangers go hand-in-hand in my opinion.
I'm not bothered about resale value, as the car only cost me £1400 to start with. These cars are so cheap now that resale value is already a massively diminished return.
It's a (very) easy swap that liberates another ~50HP for not a lot of money if done right. No brainer if you ask me.
Reliability has been 1st class, despite quite a few track miles so far, and oil consumption (including all track work) has been zero.
And they sound bloody amazing too...
Quote from: "Escy"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"just to give you my 2p
my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,
and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO
shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine
cheers tommy
When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as im sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
Quote from: "tommyzoom99"Quote from: "Escy"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"just to give you my 2p
my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,
and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO
shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine
cheers tommy
When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as im sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
ive got a good idea what your building there, been there done that. Also stick away from the cams stay stock unless you go aftermarket standalone ecu, as a piggy back wont run it well. I learnt the hard way.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"Quote from: "Escy"When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
ive got a good idea what your building there, been there done that. Also stick away from the cams stay stock unless you go aftermarket standalone ecu, as a piggy back wont run it well. I learnt the hard way.
thanks for your insight to your 1zz building past, but got stage 2 cams from crower and got full management already to run my engine, I have also how you say "been there done that" and built a few high spec n/a engines before and matt at MWR has been most helpful so im sure it will be fine.
cheers tommy
Well to give you power ideas i made 187 on a poor map as it was a piggy back and standard injectors. But if you got a standalone ecu like a pfc then you will be fine as you say. Also i recommend 2zz injectors as they a 330cc against to stock 270cc. That's what held mine back on the power.
Oh that's some nice power from a 1zz(187bhp) I would be more than happy around the 180-190 bhp with a bit of luck it might creep into the 200bhp mark as i know these 1zz engines are good for 220bhp+ but my head isn't radical enough to reach those figures. i was looking at injectors as i haven't decided yet on what im going to run, i might change the pump and the rail as well, but if 2zz injectors are more than capable i might use them, be the cheapest option thanks s:) :) s:)
Soon once i get a bit more time i will create a thread for the build of the car as i know im in the wrong place now after this thread got slightly hijacked. although it might take me as long to post all the pics as it took to build the bloody thing as i have rebuilt the whole car.
cheers tommy
Quote from: "tommyzoom99"Quote from: "Escy"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"just to give you my 2p
my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,
and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO
shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine
cheers tommy
When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.
Like you say, each to their own and all that
Quote from: "Escy"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"Quote from: "Escy"When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.
Like you say, each to their own and all that
Each to there own indeed.
Sometimes it's not where your going but the journey that's important.
Hell for 5k I would probably have 300+ bhp 1zz turbo but that's just me.
Quote from: "Escy"Quote from: "tommyzoom99"Quote from: "Escy"When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?
why not?
its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else
each to there own and all that.
cheers tommy
I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.
Like you say, each to their own and all that
hi
wellit does seem mad that is what i spent even to me s:) :) s:) but this does include manifold, decat pipe and exhaust, but not the managment
but i looked at a 2zz and they were priced between 1k and 2k depending on condition, i have heard good and bad stories about these engines there good engines but still have there weaknesses like any other, by the time i rebuild it and got a exhaust and manifold all the bits to fit it ect the cost would be marginal, but thats not really the issue the car and build so far have cost me almost 10k so you could argue why bother at all why dont i just buy a RX7 or GTR or s2000, i have had some of these cars before high power etc for me i want something that handled well and that i could make a project out of there something different about a car you build yourself, i didnt really plan to go so far with it i just ended up here and still going s:) :) s:) still got so much more to do as well but even in stock for the car is 1 of the best driving cars i hav driven and hopefully when im done its going to great
cheers tommy
People seem to think the cure to anything, the result of enjoyable driving is a 2zz. Ffs get over it, it's an option but not necessarily the answer. You can spend money on rebuilding / building a respectable 1zz and have a known quantity engine that is fun for another 100K + miles, or buy a 2zz and all the mods and be buying an old worn one with someone else's problems.
Some people like getting the best out of the 1zz, good on them as it satisfies something within to do it. The engine will be perfect and has masses of character. Just because you've been sold the fantasy of 2zz doesn't make it come to reality.
I give kudos to people prepared to make the 1zz into the great engine it can be.
Each to their own.
When I bought my Ducati others were saying I was daft because it didn't have the outright power of their Jap crotch rockets. On paper it doesn't, but they and others really couldn't outpace me on the Duc, it simple outclasses their handling and traction.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"When I bought my Ducati others were saying I was daft because it didn't have the outright power of their Jap crotch rockets. On paper it doesn't, but they and others really couldn't outpace me on the Duc, it simple outclasses their handling and traction.
Really?
Its like comparing a GTR to a 599.
Both great cars but wouldn't we truthfully all want the Ferrari?
Good on you for being different.
Both of you.
Quote from: "Escy"It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.
I doubt the 2zz would make more torque - it has a shorter stroke.
This is not "tuning getting serious" - this is making the best n/a version of the engine that you can. Until you get to forced induction you'll be nowhere near any weak links of the engine.
Quote from: "1979scotte"Each to there own indeed.
Sometimes it's not where your going but the journey that's important.
Hell for 5k I would probably have 300+ bhp 1zz turbo but that's just me.
I agree with the first two comments Scott, but you'd need a bit more than £5k for that kind of package s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It's no secret that the T400X has had a preposterous amount of money sunk into it - enough to buy a GT3 - but the journey has been much more fun! (Oh and it's faster than the Porsche s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
Quote from: "1979scotte"Each to there own indeed.
Sometimes it's not where your going but the journey that's important.
Hell for 5k I would probably have 300+ bhp 1zz turbo but that's just me.
I agree with the first two comments Scott, but you'd need a bit more than £5k for that kind of package s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It's no secret that the T400X has had a preposterous amount of money sunk into it - enough to buy a GT3 - but the journey has been much more fun! (Oh and it's faster than the Porsche s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )[/quote]
I never said how long it would make 300bhp for Matt. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Point taken however.
As matt did the tuned 1zz will make as much power but actually more torque. It is also and engine that you don't have to scream everywhere to get it to move as it will always just get up and go. And if people really want to go why bother put a better engine in then why go 2zz when the 2gr lump makes over 300bhp stock!!! Tommy stick with what your doing, i can promise you it will be problems on the way but will be worth it. Also for others info ive sunk over £10k into my engine alone. Guess i should of just bought a lotus.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Quote from: "Escy"It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.
I doubt the 2zz would make more torque - it has a shorter stroke.
This is not "tuning getting serious" - this is making the best n/a version of the engine that you can. Until you get to forced induction you'll be nowhere near any weak links of the engine.
I'd be interested to see what torque a 1zz running those stage 2 cams produces compared to a 2zz
thanks for the encouragement lads nice to know some people share my izz love s:) :) s:)
well I would be more than happy to post the results once its all sorted might be while as it needs running in and putting back together first s:) :) s:)
from my understanding and with speaking to people who have built these engines up it should have a better torque cruve than a 2zz but time will tell
it shouldn't have to many weak points as someone said, and the tuning isn't that radical, basically removed the dodgy pistons for 79.5 12:1 wiseco jobs and rebuild the bottom end which high spec bearings all new pumps etc and had the flywheel crank pistons and rods balanced, then cams head work etc, I wont be reving its nuts off maybe raise the rpm to 7.5 but that's it its nothing radical really so should be a good strong engine once mapped in the 180bhp/190bhp I would be happy with that
it might be worth pointing out that this is a joint project with a good mate of mine so we have split all the cost which has made life easier
cheers tommy
Hi chaps just to give an update on this, I hate it when people ask advice and never post their conclusions!
I was contacted by a fellow forum member who had done a 2zz swap himself and offered to help me out. So that's the route I'm currently on with s:) :) s:)
I'd like to thank Matt for his time and advice, he knows his stuff and I'll certainly want to untilise his services in future. My main issue was I don't tend to keep my cars very long and although £1300 1zz rebuild is a great price considering that would probably sort the engine for life, it's the next owner who would be getting most of the benefit and not me!
Quote from: "Kong"I was contacted by a fellow forum member who had done a 2zz swap himself and offered to help me out. So that's the route I'm currently on with s:) :) s:)
Great choice, you won't regret it. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "1979scotte"People here seem to think 2zz are much more reliable? Is that actually the case?
AFAIK it's only the pre-face lift 1ZZ's that had any sort of reliability issues. From what I have seen and read the post-facelift 1ZZ and 2ZZ have been generally very good.
It's horses for courses, do you want a new engine, or a faster old engine?
Personally I think the 2ZZ is a fantastic engine. Makes me laugh every time it hit's 'lift'. Really can't wait to be slotting it into an MR2.