MR2 Roadster Owners Club

The Workshop => Performance Related => Topic started by: Carolyn on February 26, 2016, 19:14

Title: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 26, 2016, 19:14
I've just rebuilt a 1ZZ engine.  It's a spare I took out of my MRS  and I took it apart to see what was inside.  It's had new bearings, latest pistons, re-seated and re-sealed valves and new timing gear.
I was thinking about going for a 2ZZ for my car, but when I'm driving around normally, as we do 90% of the time, I realised I didn't want an engine that had to rev hard to give more power.  I want quick grunt when I press the loud pedal. So I started looking at supercharging.  Hubby, Dave, and I have done lots of racing cars and dragsters, and there's no doubt that if you want grunt lower down, supercharging is the way to go.

I've priced Toyota superchargers and they are, well, more money than I want to spend on a car that will never be worth more than £3.000.

So we're going for a mini supercharger. Yes we will have to make a mounting bracket to fix it to the side of the engine, and make a custom exhaust manifold to make space for it.  It's not going to be a simple job.  We have all the kit to do that, so we're going for it.

We'll learn a lot on the way, and there will, doubtless be teething problems, but after building a rocket powered car, we're fairly confident we can pull it off.  Cabbydave said it's been looked at before.  I'm sure it has.  I don't think it has been done, though.  I'd love to be proven wrong on that, because someone out there has already been through the learning curve.

Anyone who's interested, please take part in this thread., so we can share ideas.

I'll be posting pics as we go.  The engine is on the stand and the supercharger arrives on Monday..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on February 26, 2016, 19:23
I'll get my popcorn on this.

As constructive suggestion I looked at fitting it in place of the ideller by the exhaust so using the stock belt and tensioner. Also you will need a bypass valve on that type of charger.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 26, 2016, 19:55
Popcorn?  Please elucidate.
Yep it has a bypass valve with it, not yet sure how to operate it until I get a good look at it.  And yes, I agree with substituting it for the idler pulley. Somehow I doubt the stock belt will be the correct length, but belts of all lengths can be got.
Throttle body on the input side and the same with the MAF sensor.  Haven't figured out what to do about injectors yet!!  And there'll be loads of custom plumbing and wiring.  I think we're on the same page here.

We'll know more once we've got it mounted!

Should be interesting??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: loadswine on February 26, 2016, 20:08
This sounds very interesting and something I think could work very well on the Roadster, once you manage to set it up. The superchargers are reasonably priced to get hold of, so there could be a few people who would like to do similar, if you can suss it all out. There was a guy called Carver over on Spyderchat, who did some work on this concept.  m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... er+charger (http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?24871-Sc-Kit&highlight=carver+charger) m   Hopefully bits on there, may be useful.
I think, with a bit of intercooling, this could be a great project.
I shall watch with great interest. Well done!  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on February 26, 2016, 20:57
A guy on CelicaClub fitted one to his 1zz, obviously a different layout but maybe worth a look.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 26, 2016, 21:06
Quote from: "loadswine"This sounds very interesting and something I think could work very well on the Roadster, once you manage to set it up. The superchargers are reasonably priced to get hold of, so there could be a few people who would like to do similar, if you can suss it all out. There was a guy called Carver over on Spyderchat, who did some work on this concept.  m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... er+charger (http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?24871-Sc-Kit&highlight=carver+charger) m   Hopefully bits on there, may be useful.
I think, with a bit of intercooling, this could be a great project.
I shall watch with great interest. Well done!  s:) :) s:)
Where would you put the intercooler?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: cabbydave on February 26, 2016, 21:30
Carolyn I have a spare charge cooler if you need to use that. I also have a small turbo with I think a t4 mount same as the mk2 mount. I was going to buy a ebay manifold at about £150 then go from there but the charger kit came along so I thought it easier to do that. I think Headcase had a look at doing the Mini or Merc compressor but passed on that. I do know a lot of Mini compressors failing but that could be down to badly looked after cars.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 26, 2016, 22:10
Quote from: "cabbydave"Carolyn I have a spare charge cooler if you need to use that. I also have a small turbo with I think a t4 mount same as the mk2 mount. I was going to buy a ebay manifold at about £150 then go from there but the charger kit came along so I thought it easier to do that. I think Headcase had a look at doing the Mini or Merc compressor but passed on that. I do know a lot of Mini compressors failing but that could be down to badly looked after cars.

That cooler could be handy.  I think we have couple in the workshop - but they might be on the big side.  Let me know what you want for it.  The amount of miles I'll put on it,(not that many)  hopefully the supercharger will stand up!!

Thanks for the help, your experience is respected here.  I've done a lot of stuff but I'm new to these little cars, no point re-inventing the wheel!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 26, 2016, 23:02
I just found the following from a 2008 thread:

"An Eaton M45 off a mini cooper-s. It will be a really tight fit. I did try one off a Mercades SLK but the ports were in the wrong locations to fit to I flogged it on ebay. Bespoke brackets & piping still to be fabricated.

sjspitz"
 
Not sure if he ever fitted this, best of luck with yours, it is a great idea.

You have prompted me to do some research into why superchargers are so often fitted directly on to the inlet manifold rather than blowing into a pipe leading to an intercooler and then to the engine, as with a turbo installation. I believe I have now discovered that this is because a positive displacement supercharger blowing into a pipe (rather than directly into a plenum/manifold) is extremely noisy. The reason for the odd shaped outlets on positive displacement superchargers is to provide noise attenuation. (Hence the reason for the rather odd flat and wide shape of the Mini's intercooler inlet, from the supercharger,  rather than being a simple pipe). This seems to be why the Rotrex option is more prevalent.

Another point I have picked up is that superchargers usually have to be fitted the right way up (for correct oil flow) so when you combine this packaging limitation with the need to also line up precisely with a suitable drive pulley and with the complexity of the plumbing/noise issue you begin to understand why this isn't done very often on a road car using a positive displacement supercharger.  

However, I really do hope you are able to pull it off, I still think a supercharged engine is very tempting.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 27, 2016, 08:14
Good steer on the oil-flow. We'll have to pay attention to that.  Hadn't thought about the noise!!  Probably have to figure out how to quiet it once we've got it working.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 27, 2016, 08:31
Just found this - yes it's the other way round but it still gives very good info:
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/mounted%20superchager.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/mounted%20superchager.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on February 27, 2016, 09:01
Here's the Celica thread...  m http://www.celica-club.co.uk/forum/inde ... 8-vvti-sc/ (http://www.celica-club.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/149381-dukey88-vvti-sc/) m

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr231/jferriby/MR2/IMG_0709_zpsv21j1ubm.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/jferriby/media/MR2/IMG_0709_zpsv21j1ubm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2016, 09:09
Not sure about that Celica one, you really want the belt to go at least half way round the pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 27, 2016, 09:38
I think the belt is just sitting loose.  Just realised all the work to get all the wiring, hoses and throttle cable to the throttle-body.  Must be mad!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: JoeCool on February 27, 2016, 10:10
Rotrexes may be expensive, but you can see why they're a nice option! The one on the Mx-5 I rallied was no bigger than a hefty Alternator.

It would be nice to see if this can be done, but as ever there's no such thing as a cheap option for those of us who haven't spent a lifetime building fabrication/welding/mechanical skills!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on February 27, 2016, 10:51
Space in the right place is always the issue with supercharging the 2.
I always thought a neat rotrex unit mounted where the aircon pump goes would be neat.
sjspitz gave up on supercharging and sold up in the end, the on he had was never going to fit.
Carver was doing good work on Spyderchat but disappeared after detonating a couple of cars, a shame as I really thought he was onto something.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: cabbydave on February 27, 2016, 11:57
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Space in the right place is always the issue with supercharging the 2.
I always thought a neat rotrex unit mounted where the aircon pump goes would be neat.
sjspitz gave up on supercharging and sold up in the end, the on he had was never going to fit.
Carver was doing good work on Spyderchat but disappeared after detonating a couple of cars, a shame as I really thought he was onto something.
Watch this space Rotrex plus bracket for charger where the a/c is mounted cooler ecu etc ready to go here.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 27, 2016, 12:26
Quote from: "cabbydave"
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Space in the right place is always the issue with supercharging the 2.
I always thought a neat rotrex unit mounted where the aircon pump goes would be neat.
sjspitz gave up on supercharging and sold up in the end, the on he had was never going to fit.
Carver was doing good work on Spyderchat but disappeared after detonating a couple of cars, a shame as I really thought he was onto something.
Watch this space Rotrex plus bracket for charger where the a/c is mounted cooler ecu etc ready to go here.
Tempting... ah well, I'm committed now!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on February 27, 2016, 13:32
Always makes me chuckle when I handle the Rotrex, 200 extra horses in the palm of my hand   s:D :D s:D  

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr231/jferriby/MR2/IMG_20160227_132631_zpszet2rgcg.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/jferriby/media/MR2/IMG_20160227_132631_zpszet2rgcg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: wafers on February 27, 2016, 13:51
Could be interesting. I love the sound of a 'charger as well. Keep us posted on updates!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: DoctorsDad on March 23, 2016, 15:09
Hi Guys,

What's the latest on this? Is it still a go-er?

Dave.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 5, 2016, 10:21
Taken a while as Rocket Car business took over...  Finally got it mounted to the engine and all squared up on all three axes.  We'll be making a custom exhaust manifold to go round it all.  
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160405_100725.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160405_100725.jpg.html)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160405_100750.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160405_100750.jpg.html)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160405_100802.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160405_100802.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: M.R. on April 5, 2016, 11:37
There is more than one thing wrong with that belt routing. Stock route is good, use that.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 5, 2016, 11:41
Quote from: "M.R."There is more than one thing wrong with that belt routing. Stock route is good, use that.

That's just a alsh-up for alignment. But please do elaborate.  Obviously with the supercharger in the loop, it's not going to be 'stock'.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on April 5, 2016, 12:22
Very impressive. Hats off too you. As for routing of the belt looks the same apart from the pulley now gone and a supercharger is it's place.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 5, 2016, 12:34
Oh wow, fantastic, can't wait for the detailed "How To" on this....

Is the supercharger outlet at the top or bottom?

Daft rhetorical question of the day: I presume there is clearance between the top of the rear subframe and the bottom of the supercharger once it goes in the engine bay?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on April 5, 2016, 13:30
This looks brilliant!
Are we looking at the next Carolyn performance kit in the making?  :-) :-) :-)  Someone's gotta fill the gap of SP!

I mean who doesn't want a little sticker down the side saying "SUPERCHARGED".... ?  s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 5, 2016, 13:32
There's plenty of clearance for the supercharger.  The exhaust is probably going through a vertical tunnel welded into the subframe.  I intake at top, out put at bottom.  Next job is fabricating the intake plate and tube...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 5, 2016, 13:36
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Very impressive. Hats off too you. As for routing of the belt looks the same apart from the pulley now gone and a supercharger is it's place.

No M R is correct - that's not the way it should be routed.  We're going to have to add an extra small idler to get the clearances along the top of the belt.  Watch this space it's going to be trick
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on April 5, 2016, 15:01
Very interesting Carlyn .... I'm looking forward to seeing the project go forward.
Exhaust routing can always be sorted with fabrication.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: M.R. on April 5, 2016, 22:51
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "M.R."There is more than one thing wrong with that belt routing. Stock route is good, use that.

That's just a alsh-up for alignment. But please do elaborate.  Obviously with the supercharger in the loop, it's not going to be 'stock'.
There is too little crank pulley coverage. It´s gonna slip. Wrong side of belt is in contact with tensioner pulley. It´s not good when grooved side of belt is in contact with smooth pulley. And there is 2 smooth pulleys in row. Belt could wander off.

You could keep stock route since supercharger replaces idler pulley, so route is similar. Cannot tell from pics if it gonna work that easily, but if necessary you can move supercharger up or down to make stock belt routing work without additional idler pulleys.

Anyway, nice to see someone working with supercharger. Too much turbo sh*t nowadays...   s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 6, 2016, 08:00
Quote from: "M.R."
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "M.R."There is more than one thing wrong with that belt routing. Stock route is good, use that.

That's just a alsh-up for alignment. But please do elaborate.  Obviously with the supercharger in the loop, it's not going to be 'stock'.
There is too little crank pulley coverage. It´s gonna slip. Wrong side of belt is in contact with tensioner pulley. It´s not good when grooved side of belt is in contact with smooth pulley. And there is 2 smooth pulleys in row. Belt could wander off.

You could keep stock route since supercharger replaces idler pulley, so route is similar. Cannot tell from pics if it gonna work that easily, but if necessary you can move supercharger up or down to make stock belt routing work without additional idler pulleys.

Anyway, nice to see someone working with supercharger. Too much turbo sh*t nowadays...   s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:

As I said before - that was a 'lash-up' to check alignment.  That's not even close to the right belt and (out of shot) it's pinched together with a pair of vice grips!  Rest assured we're going to use the traditional style routing.  There is little scope for varying the position of the supercharger as it turns out because of clearances in the engine bay, so we will be adding an extra idler.

Thanks for the input, though, 'cos we will doubtless get somethings wrong as we go and an external 'critical eye' is always a very good thing.  Good job we've got a spare car to play around with, as fitting it all in is quite a challenge.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 6, 2016, 10:13
Like this:?
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160406_100810.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160406_100810.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: tommyzoom99 on April 6, 2016, 16:32
this looks ace always liked a supercharger over a turbo, be interesting to see the power once its all complete.

subscribed!   s:D :D s:D  

cheers tommy
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 7, 2016, 07:43
Quote from: "lamcote"Oh wow, fantastic, can't wait for the detailed "How To" on this....

Is the supercharger outlet at the top or bottom?

Daft rhetorical question of the day: I presume there is clearance between the top of the rear subframe and the bottom of the supercharger once it goes in the engine bay?

Hmmm.... We forgot to allow for the slope of the engine.  So that was not a daft question.  It fouls on the subframe.  Ah well more fabrication to do.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 7, 2016, 08:39
Oh no, really hope you get it sorted, this would be a great option to have. Based on your experience so far, and using the lessons you are learning, do you think this could become a realistic project for others to do?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 7, 2016, 08:48
Don't know yet.  Depends on how it goes from here.  We've got an old spare subframe in decent nick, so we're looking at modding it.  David (hubby) is planning to fabricate a tubular one, which would make the project more difficult and/or expensive for others to do.  We haven't exhausted all the possibilities of clearing the subframe yet.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: M.R. on April 7, 2016, 09:36
Quote from: "Carolyn"Like this:?
Yes. In addition you get more supercharger pulley coverage that way, and that is always a good thing. That thing needs around 20hp to rotate at 14000rpm, so belt slipping is real concern.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: grog on April 23, 2016, 10:53
a rotrex is a great option, but they are hugely more expensive, as most OEM setups are eaton based, hence cheaper used.
however the Eaton will provide more low down power and the rotrex is better at high revs.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on April 23, 2016, 11:07
Subbed. Great idea looking forward to the progress
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on April 23, 2016, 13:41
The Rotrex pulls exactly the same as an Eaton (mp62) low down, but from 4k upwards it's obviously night & day  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 23, 2016, 14:12
All the evidence I have seen suggests that a positive displacement supercharger (eg Eaton) will deliver significantly more torque below 4k revs than a Rotrex. If they were equivalent at low revs I can't think why anyone would use anything other than a Rotrex?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on April 23, 2016, 15:04
Here's an old overlay I put together comparing stock 2zz, mp62 (Greddy kit) & Rotrex.

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr231/jferriby/CELICA/Rotrex-Greddy-Stock_Dynoscopy_zps3b6895bf.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/jferriby/media/CELICA/Rotrex-Greddy-Stock_Dynoscopy_zps3b6895bf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: justinread72 on April 23, 2016, 18:36
Quote from: "Carolyn"Like this:?
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160406_100810.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160406_100810.jpg.html)

Great work if you not seen the mighty car mods mini build on youtube you should as they came from down under to pick a new mini super charger kit up for there project and went through a lot to fit it to their old school mini with the A series engine

it would be worth seeing if you could make a kit to sell after as I really think if its a easy bolt on its a no brainer

good luck and more pics please

many thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: grog on April 24, 2016, 06:27
Quote from: "J03"Here's an old overlay I put together comparing stock 2zz, mp62 (Greddy kit) & Rotrex.

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr231/jferriby/CELICA/Rotrex-Greddy-Stock_Dynoscopy_zps3b6895bf.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/jferriby/media/CELICA/Rotrex-Greddy-Stock_Dynoscopy_zps3b6895bf.jpg.html)

it depends on sizing of the charger
most people would compare the charger options to achieve the same Max HP, (they assume it the max power which kills the engine)
if you do this the Rotrex will have less low torque,

people assume it's power that kills engines, but equally it can be low torque, or piston speed (revs)
if you compare the the same low down torque, the Rotrex is much stronger up top, as you show,

to do it thoroughly you'd need to set limits on low torque, max revs, and several other things,
you'd probably find the mid band power may be similar, with Rotrex better up top and PD better low down,

all that said i'd choose a rotrex, i just wish they were available a bit cheaper!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 24, 2016, 13:02
Absolutely right grog, that chart proves just how much more low end torque a positive displacement supercharger really does provide compared to a Rotrex. If the Greddy supercharger in this example was sized to give the same top end as the Rotrex the torque below 4k would be massive.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on April 24, 2016, 13:29
And the charger would be absolutely massive as well. The example above is a real world choice between the 2, comparing a PD which provides the same top end potential is pointless as it'd never happen. But yes, I get the point of a direct pound for pound comparison  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 25, 2016, 09:52
We're busy building a tubular rear sub-frame right now, to give us plenty of room for exhaust, supercharger and plumbing.

I don't see this as a bolt-on kit, it would be quite expensive.  More a project for those with tools and skills.

The whole reason for doing this it get get more bottom to mid-range grunt.  I'm trying to avoid having to spin the hell out of it.  Not because it's better for the engine (the engine is very happy to spin hard) but just because I want the power lower down to suit the kind of driving I do most of the time.

It's a personal taste kind of thing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 25, 2016, 10:34
Sounds good but a shame about the complexity.

Isn't it possible to use a longer drive shaft to the supercharger allowing you to mount the supercharger unit to the left hand end of the engine thereby moving the supercharger out of the way of the exhaust. This would mean it could be mounted further away from the subframe because you would only need room for the shaft past the block rather than the whole unit?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jeffsimply on April 25, 2016, 10:38
Quote from: "Carolyn"We're busy building a tubular rear sub-frame right now, to give us plenty of room for exhaust, supercharger and plumbing.

I don't see this as a bolt-on kit, it would be quite expensive.  More a project for those with tools and skills.

The whole reason for doing this it get get more bottom to mid-range grunt.  I'm trying to avoid having to spin the hell out of it.  Not because it's better for the engine (the engine is very happy to spin hard) but just because I want the power lower down to suit the kind of driving I do most of the time.

It's a personal taste kind of thing.

Agree with you, I think we're spoilt with torque these days on most cars, so things like a 1.8 NA Roadster feel slow, if it had extra torque it would make it a lot more comfortable IMO.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 25, 2016, 11:03
Quote from: "lamcote"Sounds good but a shame about the complexity.

Isn't it possible to use a longer drive shaft to the supercharger allowing you to mount the supercharger unit to the left hand end of the engine thereby moving the supercharger out of the way of the exhaust. This would mean it could be mounted further away from the subframe because you would only need room for the shaft past the block rather than the whole unit?

We considered that. It generates as many issues as it solves, I'm afraid.  We're not interested in making a business out of this.  For us it's just an interesting one-off project.

Once the subframe jig has been built, however, they could be produced in some volume.  The exhaust will be the same.  Then, perhaps, someone who is in the business could take it over and produce the stuff.  There'll be a ready market for the subframe, I should think.

I've yet to see a real performance enhancement for these cars that isn't expensive.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on April 25, 2016, 11:16
Quote from: "Carolyn"Once the subframe jig has been built, however, they could be produced in some volume.  The exhaust will be the same.  Then, perhaps, someone who is in the business could take it over and produce the stuff.  There'll be a ready market for the subframe, I should think.

  s:D :D s:D  yes I think there will be a market for the subframe! I've been looking at one in America but they are just so expensive. A reasonably priced tubular subframe would probably get quite a few takers!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jeffsimply on April 25, 2016, 11:24
How much is the one from America?

I can't imagine it will ever be cheap but are we talking more/less/the same as the one from Toyota @ circa £300 ?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on April 25, 2016, 11:27
I'm quoting figures off the top of my head here, but I think it was $600+ then add shipping and duty on top of that and it was rather expensive! I don't think they have as much need for subframes like us though so I doubt the demand is high enough to get enough produced to lower the price.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 25, 2016, 11:32
Can't see it being as cheap as the pressed steel Toyota one.  But they are all out production and sooner or later the stock will be gone.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on April 25, 2016, 11:37
Quote from: "Carolyn"We considered that. It generates as many issues as it solves, I'm afraid.  We're not interested in making a business out of this.  For us it's just an interesting one-off project.

Que major disappointment from all the subscribers to this build thread!....
Well, if one person can do it, I think that's the start!  :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J03 on April 25, 2016, 12:43
I'm currently having a tubular subframe jigged but haven't got a set price yet. How much would you envisage yours costing Carolyn?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 25, 2016, 13:21
Quote from: "J03"I'm currently having a tubular subframe jigged but haven't got a set price yet. How much would you envisage yours costing Carolyn?

I'll come up with a price once we've built one.  Don't like to guess but it would be cheaper than paying someone else to build the jig.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 25, 2016, 14:54
My concern about non standard subframes is what insurers will think. It's such a fundamental part of the car, won't they want to see some evidence that the structure is suitable and safe (in both design and construction), and if so, how would that be demonstrated?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on April 25, 2016, 15:02
Quote from: "lamcote"My concern about non standard subframes is what insurers will think. It's such a fundamental part of the car, won't they want to see some evidence that the structure is suitable and safe (in both design and construction), and if so, how would that be demonstrated?

You will have to ask your own insurance about price increases, but I highly doubt they will be wanting evidence of a safe and suitable structure seeming that you can change your wheels, tyres, suspension, engine and a whole load of other things that will effect how the car is suitable/safe in a crash etc much more than changing the sub frame ever would, yet they don't require any safety standards to be demonstrated.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 25, 2016, 15:52
Maybe, but most people fit wheels, suspension bits etc made by large reputable companies with a long track record of selling products which are demonstrably robust and safe, and even then, if a wheel or spring does break that isn't a catastrophic impact on the integrity of the vehicle. Plus, surely all tyres, aftermarket wheels etc pass British/EU Standards which the insurers must expect and rely on. I can't believe I would be insured if I made my own tyres and started driving round on them?

Likewise, if someone gets a subframe built by a local garage as a one off, where is the safety track record of that part, and if it fails, the whole of the back of the car (and the engine) falls off! If I was insuring that car I would be quite worried!

Sorry if I sound like a jobsworth HSE freak...... I'm not defending the insurers I just wonder whether it is a point worth considering?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on April 25, 2016, 16:15
Even if a wheel or Spring does brake that isn't a big impact on the vehicle??? Are you kidding me lol! I'd rather my subframe not be structurally as strong than be driving along at 70 on the motorway and have a wheel shatter or a strut collapse. Or my brakes fail or my engine spontaneously combust  s:) :) s:)  i'd be more worried about the majority of mr2s driving around with chocolate subframes that only take a whack of a hammer to disintegrate.

Insurers also can't keep a database of all "reputable" companies that provide aftermarket items. i think your thinking to much into it, but if your worried give your own insurer a call to check. With the modifications that go on to car it's not an uncommon thing for one of parts etc to be a structural part of a car.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jeffsimply on April 25, 2016, 16:26
Quote from: "lamcote"Maybe, but most people fit wheels, suspension bits etc made by large reputable companies with a long track record of selling products which are demonstrably robust and safe, and even then, if a wheel or spring does break that isn't a catastrophic impact on the integrity of the vehicle. Plus, surely all tyres, aftermarket wheels etc pass British/EU Standards which the insurers must expect and rely on. I can't believe I would be insured if I made my own tyres and started driving round on them?

Likewise, if someone gets a subframe built by a local garage as a one off, where is the safety track record of that part, and if it fails, the whole of the back of the car (and the engine) falls off! If I was insuring that car I would be quite worried!

Sorry if I sound like a jobsworth HSE freak...... I'm not defending the insurers I just wonder whether it is a point worth considering?

How many pictures of failed Rota wheels have you seen online?

Providing you declare it as a "modified suspension component" so that your backside is covered I really can't see it being a problem. The only time you might come under scrutiny is if you barrel rolled through a school bus stop, and I very much doubt anyone would say it was the subframe that caused the accident in that scenario.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on April 25, 2016, 16:42
Perhaps someone should start another thread on subframes.  This one is for supercharging.... and lots of relevant input will be needed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 22, 2016, 11:50
Re the discussion I started on the other thread, I thought it might be possible to create a mounting plate which hangs off the left hand end of the engine for the supercharger so it is mounted on the engine, and run the driveshaft and secondary belt to it as I described. This would allow the standard exhaust manifold and subframe to be retained. The only fabrication required would be the supercharger mount.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 12:49
It's a thought.. we'll take a look at the possibilities... I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 12:57
Just had a look at #2 car and the supercharger as it sits on the engine on the engine stand.  It would actually mount on the gear box (which would be ok..) Bearing in mind that we have to the direction of rotation, I looks as though we'd simply be transferring the subframe clearance issue to the other side of the car. .Bugger - 'cos it was a nice idea!
A Rotrex would be much simpler but they ain't cheap.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 22, 2016, 13:19
I am totally guessing all this because I don't know what the issues are but couldn't the supercharger be mounted up high, level with the cylinder head, where the air filter box is, out of the way of everything? The belt from the driveshaft could run up past the side of the exhaust manifold to meet the supercharger drive.

As you can tell I am desperate for you to find a simple solution to this because it is such a great project.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 13:31
I can tell you're very interested - sent you a PM.

We're not fazed by fabricating subframes and manifolds.  We've done a lot of high-end fabrication, so it's really not a worry.  There's no reason why we cant do two subframes and manifolds if you want to play too!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 22, 2016, 13:36
I would love to get involved, what lets me down are my practical skills and a total lack of tools and facilities. That's why I so want there to be a simple solution because I reckon a cheap supercharger on a 1zz is THE perfect engine for the MR2. Can't tell you how pleased I was that you were giving it a go. I reckon a simple DIY solution would be very popular.

Be interesting to hear people's thoughts?

(No PM arrived)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 13:54
Sent another PM...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 22, 2016, 14:15
I fully agree. The GT25 commonly used is a great turbo for the MR2 but there's still lag. A supercharger would really bring it home as far as driveability goes.

As my car has passed 66k, I'm starting to look into where the future of my 2 lies. 1zz Turbo, 2zz, 2zz turbo, oorr....1zz supercharged?  s:) :) s:)

Keeping my eyes on this thread  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 22, 2016, 14:35
Personally I think Carolyn made the case at the beginning of the thread really well for the use of the supercharger over the other options  :-) :-) :-)  

I'm totally sold on the idea and subscribed to the thread as I think it's a great idea, having driven a WRX and experienced power without character (personal opinion), I think the supercharger would go a long way to preserve the character of the engine and provide the power....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 14:48
If enough people want to play, a short production run of subframes and manifolds can be sorted.  We have probably the best Tig welder in the country right round the corner.  A matter of building a couple of jigs and notching a bunch of good quality steel tube.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 15:17
Also - there's other work to do, which the group could get stuck into.  Fueling - control and injectors (2zz?)

Many of you have far more experience than I with this stuff on a roadster.  Then there's the plumbing for the air/intercooler.  Someone with turbo experience would be handy.

Spread the workload -get a group result, which would be very very cool.  The MROC supercharger kit!?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 22, 2016, 16:13
If you're in need of a project plan I can happily assist! (Kind my job).

Also if you need some 2ZZ injectors to test out I can provide you with mine... (recently refurbed)

love the idea of a MR2ROC supercharger kit!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 16:39
That sounds like a good idea.  A plan!  A team!  I've got the workshop, the tools and we can use my ~2 car (in pretty good shape) as the guinea pig.  If all goes south - got a spare engine.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 17:17
Anybody got a used toyosport manifold, to be used as the basis for the one for this project?  I'll but a new one if it's needed.  The plan is to cut it near the top flange and extend it outward with straight tubing to go around the supercharger.  

The exhaust then goes right through the centre of the new subframe...

Must crack on with the subframe.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 22, 2016, 20:35
Quote from: "Carolyn"Anybody got a used toyosport manifold, to be used as the basis for the one for this project?  I'll but a new one if it's needed.  The plan is to cut it near the top flange and extend it outward with straight tubing to go around the supercharger.  

The exhaust then goes right through the centre of the new subframe...

Must crack on with the subframe.
Wouldn't an old stock manifold do then if you're cutting near the flange? Must be plenty of those around
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 20:38
No I need the rest of the toyosport - less bulky
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Mark A on June 22, 2016, 20:45
I have a spare Toyosport manifold you can borrow
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 20:55
Thanks for the offer, Mark, but it's going to get butchered...  want to sell it?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Mark A on June 22, 2016, 21:06
Make me an offer, it's not too old happy to picture it first, not going to be used by me now.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Mark A on June 22, 2016, 21:07
Or if the kit comes off might take a discount on one?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 22, 2016, 21:12
Sent you a PM.  The kit coming off is a long shot at this stage....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 18:14
Does anyone have a view about the most appropriate piggyback ECU for this. Would the Emanage Blue be adequate or would the Ultimate version be essential. Would the answer to this be different according to the boost levels being used?
Also what extra wiring is required to fit these piggybacks? I'm thinking Boomslang but hoping for a cheaper option!
Also, who is deemed to be the best tuner for boosted engines with Emanage units? If we managed to get to the point of tuning the kit in maybe we could all chip in some money to pay for a mapper to set up a standard map which would be available for everyone using the kit.
Any thoughts /advice?
Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 26, 2016, 19:14
Would seriously consider chipping in to help with tuning if it helps....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 19:32
Patrick (lamcote) visited today, with his lovely family, and we spent a few hours looking at, and discussing, the project.  I think we both agree that it does entail fabricating a sub-frame, and that it is not too big a challenge.  He's shown real commitment to the project, now we need more on board.
Jvanzyl, please come on board as the project will only get anywhere if the tasks are spread about somewhat.  We can do the mounting and fabrication to get the hardware in the car.  If you would take charge of the electronic control, that would be a major contribution.  Somebody who has done a turbo project would be good to help specify the 'plumbing'.
Those who contribute get to share the results.  That seems the way to go.
It really does help to come and have a look at how it all lays out around the engine and in the car.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 26, 2016, 19:45
Plumbing I assume you mean intake route and cooling?

Keep it as short as possible and to avoid added heat soak and a charge cooler is the most efficient but a small intercooler in front of the gearbox will probably do as it's the m45.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Nostromo on June 26, 2016, 20:00
This thread is 100% relevant to my interests! I don't yet have my MR2 so please excuse my ignorance but is there a reason why the charger couldn't sit on top of the engine then modify the engine cover to suit?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 20:11
There is no reason.  Except.. ugly and rearward vision.  Did consider that.

Don't know why folk are so worried about fabricating sub-frame.  It is the most elegant solution and not as hard as it sounds.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Nostromo on June 26, 2016, 20:17
Would it potentially be a much easier mod if you did go that way? Basically (ok, not that basic), I'm going to be turning my MR2 into an RS200 http://mrs200tribute.wix.com/ so will have a big engine cover and plenty of room for a supercharger to fit inside. Personally, I think it'd be pretty cool to look out the back window and see a nice belt driven charger pushing the car along.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 20:18
Can anyone confirm the diameter of the 1zz crank pulley?
Carolyn, is the supercharger pulley 65.5mm diameter (I believe that is the standard size)?
Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 20:22
Quote from: "Nostromo"Would it potentially be a much easier mod if you did go that way? Basically (ok, not that basic), I'm going to be turning my MR2 into an RS200 http://mrs200tribute.wix.com/ so will have a big engine cover and plenty of room for a supercharger to fit inside. Personally, I think it'd be pretty cool to look out the back window and see a nice belt driven charger pushing the car along.

Interestingly my hubby, David was part of the team that bult the first RS200s at TC prtotypes.  As for the charger on top - not my taste,
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 20:23
Quote from: "lamcote"Can anyone confirm the diameter of the 1zz crank pulley?
Carolyn, is the supercharger pulley 65.5mm diameter (I believe that is the standard size)?
Thanks

I'll measure and let you know.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 20:31
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "lamcote"Can anyone confirm the diameter of the 1zz crank pulley?
Carolyn, is the supercharger pulley 65.5mm diameter (I believe that is the standard size)?
Thanks

I'll measure and let you know.

135 crank. 65 supercharger.  You're working out how fast it will spin... should be similar to the mini?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 20:42
The Mini crank pulley is 138.7mm so the 1zz would produce very slightly less boost than the Mini but you can easily find 15% (and others) smaller pulleys for the supercharger which would push the boost up to more than standard (which seems to be 10-11psi on the 1.6l Mini)

Edit: Compression ratio on the Mini seems to be 8.3:1.!! Maybe stick to the standard pulley..... Both engines redline at 6,800 so that's OK.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 20:44
Good info.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 21:20
OK found some formulae about supercharger size/pulley ratios on the Web. If they are right it appears that there is a pretty much straight line boost variation when you use a supercharger on different sized engines. Can anyone confirm?
If so, that would mean that the standard Mini pulley setup would produce about 8.5psi max boost on the 1zz, taking into account the smaller 1zz crank pulley and the larger 1zz engine capacity. That should be c.45% power increase with a decent intercooler setup. Obviously this is back of envelope stuff.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 21:30
That'll do me.  So when it would be producing 100 hp, it will be 140.  When it would be producing 140 hp, it would be 196, without spinning its head off.  Can bring that up if we wish.  Personally I'd be happy to start there and see how she drives.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 21:42
I suppose it would be a bit less increase at lower revs because boost increases pretty much in direct proportion to revs/speed with a supercharger, (as opposed to a turbo, or a rocket as I learned today!). Nonetheless, as you say, that will do me too.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 26, 2016, 21:51
Don't forget I'm about 1/2 you're weight (no - you're not fat but you're not tiny either).  In a light car that gives me at least a 10hp start.
going to be much nicer to drive I think.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 26, 2016, 21:59
Have you thought about putting in place of the air con pump
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 21:59
I doubt you would need to rely on a weight advantage, your superior driving skills would be more than enough to make the difference I would say.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 26, 2016, 22:05
The space where the aircon pump is would take a Rotrex, but the M45 is surprisingly big, no way of squeezing it in there, or anywhere else apart from where Carolyn has found, as I had to agree when I saw it today, despite my smartarse ideas!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 08:55
Result of latest research:
The Mini's M45 supercharger gets inefficient after about 14,000rpm so you don't want to be spinning it faster than that at peak engine power revs. Our engine is tuned to give max power at 6,500rpm so the standard supercharger pulley (65.5mm) means the supercharger would be spinning at about 13,500rpm at 6,500 engine rpm. ie about maxed out.

The Mini is tuned to give max power at 5,500rpm and turns the s/c at 11,600rpm at peak power. This is why they can use underdrive pulleys to get more power.

This means the M45 on standard pulleys is as far as we could go on a 1zz, if people want more boost we would need to use a bigger s/c (which probably wouldn't fit).

(Running an underdrive pulley would increase the measured boost pressure but that would be artificial boost because it would just be resulting from very hot intake air which makes boost pressure on a gauge but not power on a dyno. Please be aware.)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 27, 2016, 09:12
Quote from: "Carolyn"Jvanzyl, please come on board as the project will only get anywhere if the tasks are spread about somewhat.  We can do the mounting and fabrication to get the hardware in the car.  If you would take charge of the electronic control, that would be a major contribution.  Somebody who has done a turbo project would be good to help specify the 'plumbing'.
Those who contribute get to share the results.  That seems the way to go.
It really does help to come and have a look at how it all lays out around the engine and in the car.

I tried to respond to this earlier but the post didn't come through it seems!

Basically I think I need to tell you that I have NO experience with electrics! When I said "chip in" I was thinking we were having a whip around to build a fund to pay for the mapping?

I can suggest that maybe we broaden the viewers by publicizing this on the Sypderchat site? There is a wealth of experience over there and more than likely a few material resources that we don't have here either...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 09:22
Broadening the viewers is a good idea.  

As our interest is not really at max RPM, it looks like we're pretty much on the right track.  Once it's built, there's no reason why we can't play with variations.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 09:25
The kit would require use of a custom Toyosport manifold and a custom exhaust, plus a piggyback ECU. I reckon applying these mods to a standard engine would bump power to 155bhp. So if we get a 45% power increase from the 8.5psi boost mentioned above, that means the standard pulley setup should give c.225bhp max. Not bad?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 09:31
Hadn't thought of the other power increase.  What's the power out put of the standard 1zz at 4,000 rpm (which is where the boost is most useful)?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 09:36
I'd certainly be very happy with 225 with no lag.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 09:38
Standard engine spec is 125lb/ft @ 4,400rpm which is 105bhp.

Presumably boost would be about 2/3 of max at that point so c.5.5psi, that would be c.30% increase, giving about 140bhp (including the exhaust/ECU mods) give or take.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 09:48
So.. around 135-140 with SC?  Big improvement.  Wonder if it can be mapped for optimum mid-range power.  Damn we need a local (ish) ecu boffin.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 09:48
It posted twice....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 09:58
Carolyn, you have come up with THE perfect engine for the MR2? We've got to do it.....

Plenty of power, no lag and it's even better than a Rotrex because there will be real low down torque, just what a road car needs.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 10:00
Quote from: "Carolyn"So.. around 135-140 with SC?  Big improvement.  Wonder if it can be mapped for optimum mid-range power.  Damn we need a local (ish) ecu boffin.

If you use an emanage ultimate and wideband o2 sensor you can have it map itself for a nice base map, and then tweak it  slowly to suit needs. The important part is the wideband and listening for knock, but I believe the 1zz has some pretty nifty knock sensor action anyway
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 10:04
Shnazzle, has anyone done that? Is it safe to rely on the knock sensors like that? Maybe worth a try on a sacrificial engine?

What are the chances of someone loaning us an eManage Ultimate and wideband o2 for a while to get it up and running????
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 10:21
We're trying to keep the costs down as much as possible.  Anyone with a creative engine control solution?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 10:21
Quote from: "lamcote"Shnazzle, has anyone done that? Is it safe to rely on the knock sensors like that? Maybe worth a try on a sacrificial engine?

Depends on how much you want to DIY.
Good thing is that we should already have a few base maps lying around for the emanage. Using the wideband "auto-tune" functionality allows it to adjust the map to the car. So that's safe. But you won't get the best out of it of course as the car will always try to be at stoich. That's just step 1.

Then it's a case of finding either a dyno or a lot of open private space and a friend in the car and tinkering with fueling and possibly air flow map. Lot's of tinkering. For a long time.
Could keep it safe and ensure that the ratio never goes below 13.0. Could push it towards 12 but I reckon that's asking for melting sh1t and making things go bang. But 13 is a pretty safe ratio with plenty fuel to keep things cool.

Then there's timing. Frankly I wouldn't even touch that because it's damn near impossible to tune without a dyno, and this is where knock is going to start to really play a role. You're unlikely to introduce knock if you're playing wiht a small margin in fueling ratios, but once you start messing with timing... One degree over could mean knock.
Granted...,knock is BAD but if you're tuning and seriously eyeball that knock sensor and let off immediately if it changes voltage...should be ok.

Oh, and we haven't even introduced map sensor and boost map yet.... hmm... I think this may be a case of donations for one car to get it done and then other people using that as a base map and tweaking.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 10:25
Just curious: Can you take a map developed on an eManage Ultimate and run it on an eManage Blue?

At this stage we just want a proof of concept so if we could get hold of the necessary hardware to see how/if it runs, that would be a start. We can take it from there according to how it goes.

I'm up for tinkering/DIYing as much as possible.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 10:32
Quote from: "lamcote"Just curious: Can you take a map developed on an eManage Ultimate and run it on an eManage Blue?

At this stage we just want a proof of concept so if we could get hold of the necessary hardware to see how/if it runs, that would be a start. We can take it from there according to how it goes.

I suspect not. The tables on the ultimate are bigger. Don't remember the figures but it goes from something like 16x16 to 20x20. So you'd lose 4x4 values...which is a lot.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 10:50
Anyone have any thoughts on cost:

Second hand Mini supercharger £120
Toyosports manifold £120 (plus modification costs £100)
Custom subframe £?
Custom exhaust £500?
[strike:25v60beu]eManage ECU £275 Second hand[/strike:25v60beu]
[strike:25v60beu]ECU Harness £150[/strike:25v60beu]
[strike:25v60beu]360-380cc Injectors £? Any suggestions for best cheap second hand source of this size of injectors?[/strike:25v60beu]
2zz yellow injectors £150?
Intercooler £50 Second hand (unless you get one with your supercharger)
Air filter £50?
Plumbing £200?
Brackets £100?
Fitting £? (Unless DIY)
[strike:25v60beu]Tuning £400?[/strike:25v60beu]
Latest Total £1,390 excl subframe and fitting cost (if required).


(I'll update as people suggest numbers)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 10:54
Second hand Mini supercharger £200
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)
Custom subframe £?
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering.
Intercooler £?
Plumbing £?
Fitting £?
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno
Total £?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 27, 2016, 10:56
Just a thought here - I have a friend who will be coming back from the US shortly.... would it be beneficial to buy the ulitmate and harness etc from there and bring it back?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 10:58
I'm hoping for some kind person to come up with a loaner. Is that just wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 11:00
Quote from: "lamcote"I'm hoping for some kind person to come up with a loaner. Is that just wishful thinking?

Maybe cabbydave? although I know he's got his ultimate ready to go for his rotrex 2zz install.

let's all bat our eyelids at cabbydave

Also, few more things.

Second hand Mini supercharger £200
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)
Custom subframe £?
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering.
Wideband AFR £120-50
MAP sensor for Ultimate + harness £150
Intercooler £?
Plumbing £?
Fitting £?
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno
Total £?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:01
Batting here...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:02
What we need is someone who has a good understanding of the electronics on the car to  come to SC HQ and have a long discussion on possible ways forward.  Any volunteers?  The more the better.
As someone who has done quite a few successful projects that were not done according to 'established wisdom', I cannot believe there is not something more creative and less expensive waiting to be exploited.

Second hand Mini supercharger £200   Bought for 120
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)  Can be had for £120.  modification £100
Custom subframe £?   Don't know yet.
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without  Need alternative
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering.  No idea
Intercooler £?  Came with the supercharger
Plumbing £?  Don't know
Fitting £?  DIY
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno   Got to find a volunteer
Total £?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 11:09
ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:11
Quote from: "shnazzle"ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.

Has anyone tried 2zz injectors on stock ecu?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 11:15
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "shnazzle"ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.

Has anyone tried 2zz injectors on stock ecu?

yes. Everybody who has done Cap's MAF mod  s:) :) s:)

Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:19
I think we need 360-380cc injectors - forgot those, now added to list!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on June 27, 2016, 11:20
Tuning wise 13:1 under load is lean. The stock engine NA seems to give it's best at about 12 - 12.5:1 no improvement going leaner, so I would assume that with boost you would want to start richer, maybe 10.5:1 and work your way lean from there.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 11:27
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Tuning wise 13:1 under load is lean. The stock engine NA seems to give it's best at about 12 - 12.5:1 no improvement going leaner, so I would assume that with boost you would want to start richer, maybe 10.5:1 and work your way lean from there.

True. 13 was an absolute limit for safety. But definitely good to know that the NA seems to be best at 12-12.5. If there's no point going to 13...why risk it eh?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:32
quote: "Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors"

The maf position will be different anyway as we won't be using the stock intake.  My though was just that, with boost, the ECU would work with slightly bigger injectors.  I am minded to try that first.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 11:34
Quote from: "Carolyn"quote: "Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors"

The maf position will be different anyway as we won't be using the stock intake.  My though was just that, with boost, the ECU would work with slightly bigger injectors.  I am minded to try that first.

Ah ok. Does the stock intake not fit with the SC in place? Regardless, seems that 310 might not even be enough based on what lamcote said
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:41
The Throttle body , MAF and air filter are all up steam of the SC.  You suck with an SC - not blow.  People call them 'blowers'. but they need to pull through the butterfly.  It's not complicated to do the intake.  The plumbing via the intercooler to the plenum is a bit more of a challenge but with the old intake out of the way, it won't be too bad.  
OK let's figure out the optimum injector size and then figure out how to get the best out of the standard ECU?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:42
The cheaper option would be to find out what max power you can deliver using the standard ECU with either 1zz or 2zz injectors and then fit a custom pulley to reduce boost achieve that number.

For example, if you can get 190bhp out of the standard ECU and 2zz injectors we would then want boost of around 4-5psi so we would need a SC pulley of around 130mm dia.

This would mean no costs for ECU, harness or tuning.

Is this a preferred route?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:44
Like your thinking but I think we can do a bit better than that... compromises here and there...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:47
Intriguing, what are you thinking?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:50
330cc (2zz brown) injectors should do 205bhp, if the standard ECU is up to that? But off/low boost likely to be be mega rich, emissions probs?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 11:53
Use established knowledge on MAF mounting/positioning.  Get the injector sizing right.  Run it and experiment.  As I understand it, the ecu reads the MAF and O2 sensors and controls the injectors - got to feed it the right info.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 11:58
I see where you're going but main obstacle will be getting standard ECU to fuel correctly for low revs/no boost ie almost standard fuel flow required and high revs with significant boost present. This means the slope of the fuel flow graph is very different to the natural aspiration which is what the standard ECU expects. Worth a try though. I think it will depend on whether the fuel trims in closed loop have enough adjustment to offset the AFR needed in open loop.

Only one way to find out!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 12:00
I'm going to give this a bit of mulling over.  Really want to keep the costs down....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:03
Couldn't agree more.

The more I think about it, the size of fuel trim adjustment available is the key to this. We need to find a max power output (and therefore injector size) that falls just within the standard ECU closed loop adjustment range. Maybe trial and error is the only way.

This could be doable, well done for keeping my feet on the ground.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 27, 2016, 12:07
me again with my thoughts.... re the over fueling on idle with 2zz injectors, my O2 sensors were quite old and slow reacting (according to steve). There was an appreciable difference to the values following a refresh of my air filter and sparks. I do think it would be wise to ensure that whatever you start testing on has "new" everything, otherwise you may be trying to deal with non-problems that can be sorted by simply refreshing components...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:09
Good point, thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 12:12
jvanzyl:  Yep.
Lamcote:  Don't forget -it's mid-range power we're after.  Not too fussed about top end.... I reckon, start with yellow 2zz injectors...??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:16
We will need a range of custom SC pulley sizes available though, unless we are happy having a mandatory 4,500 rpm redline.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 12:23
Let's start with whatever you think is the best all-round size?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 12:28
Quote from: "lamcote"We will need a range of custom SC pulley sizes available though, unless we are happy having a mandatory 4,500 rpm redline.

That would knock the entire solution out of the running as the engine itself doesn't really come to life until around 4k. You'd turn it into a diesel.

The stock ECU will fire errors and the like if the fuel trims are +/- 25 for extended periods of time. Would 310cc injectors be within that limit on low boost?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:33
If yellow 2zz injectors are 310cc that suggests a max power of around 195bhp.
Based on previous assumptions this suggests a pulley of c.120mm.
Brown injectors (330cc) would then need to be c.95mm
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:39
Does the standard ECU throw a wobbly if just the LTFT is at -25, or only if both the LTFT AND the STFT are at -25?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 12:47
Quote from: "lamcote"Does the standard ECU throw a wobbly if just the LTFT is at -25, or only if both the LTFT AND the STFT are at -25?

It's both. which I suspect would be the case in this ..err..case.

However;
"If the total of the short–term fuel trim value and long–term fuel trim value is within ±38 %, the system functioning normally."

I was fairly sure the max calibration was set to 25... hmm..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:51
Can anyone suggest if the MAF riser mod is going to help or hinder with this, to save me having to get my head around it.....?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 12:53
Wow that's extremely helpful. So we have 38% tolerance to play with. ie -25% LTFT plus -13% STFT before we hit probs.

I wonder if that means that if the 1zz injectors are 240cc we have tolerance for up to 138% of that capacity ie up to 330cc injectors? That would be nice!!!

That could make Carolyn's suggestion of 310cc a great option. Great intuition, oh what it must be like to be an engineer.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 13:00
Quote from: "lamcote"Can anyone suggest if the MAF riser mod is going to help or hinder with this, to save me having to get my head around it.....?

It's such an unknown with the SC. It provides boost pretty much instantly doesn't it?
Your starting position from idle is already flowing more than stock.
So, the airflow with the MAF at stock height might be a perfect match for the 310cc at the same duty cycle as the stock injectors.

If there is a gap at idle, a slight rise of MAF might make the car go towards overfueling at load but be better at idle.

So the question is, what pulley do you use to get that fine balance that balances the 310cc injectors with the additional airflow from the SC across the range? And, how far do you raise the MAF to make the ECU think
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 13:02
Maybe it's another tinkering parameter? How exciting....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 13:06
This is typical for me, always over-complicating things but...
Cap tried a MAF construction whereby he had variable vanes to adjust airflow...

If we wanted the car to read the lowest flow possible at idle, perhaps we could DIY a variable vane with an actuator, triggered by the idle air control valve signal, with a bit of clever use of a resistor and relay?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 13:08
I like it, and not beyond Carolyn's abilities to create no doubt.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 13:11
Now you guys are thinking creatively.  A controllable maf... sounds like a plan to me.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 13:24
 m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... orta/page4 (http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?34825-1-and-2-ZZ-ECU-s-Side-by-Side-Sorta/page4) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 13:28
Oh yes, this could be all the control we need? Well done..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 13:41
Spring loaded vane with adjustable tension.  The more it sucks -the less vane...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 13:44
Quote from: "Carolyn"Spring loaded vane with adjustable tension.  The more it sucks -the less vane...

ooohh...getting fancy now  s:) :) s:)   I like it
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 13:48
Got to make the inlet anyway.  Will not be too hard to make and very adjustable.  Can also experiment with vane size, if I make the vane easy to swap out.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 13:56
It's an SU carburettor for the MAF isn't it?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 13:59
kind of   Are you suggesting damping?  Could be done.  I do like the idea of making it purely mechanical.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 14:09
Quote from: "Carolyn"Got to make the inlet anyway.  Will not be too hard to make and very adjustable.  Can also experiment with vane size, if I make the vane easy to swap out.
Better still, an adjustable stop.  That way you can set the start point.  This is very do-able.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 14:24
I guess damping would only be required if it turned out to react too quickly. If the Spyderchat guy didn't need damping, hopefully we won't? Unless you think it would improve it? Probably have to build it and test it to know?

Very glad to hear you think it is do-able if we need it, we possibly may not.

Would you want to test out a basic system first to see how we go and then try this, or do you think it is wise to have this ready ASAP?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 14:25
Agreed.  It's build and test time.  Pick yer pulley, yellow injectors, go for it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 14:31
Well I would suggest 120mm SC pulley as a starting point with Yellows, and see how we go.

What needs to happen now before we can do a test run?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 14:47
Build the subframe.  Weld up the input plate.  Mount the throttle body. Sort out the exhaust manifold.  (Had an offer of one, sent a PM but no response as yet) Make the MAF tube. Get all the parts together for the out side to get the air through the intercooler and to the plenum.  Figure out how to make the bypass work. Install in the blue car.  Includes throttle cable and wiring extensions as the throttle body will be in a different place.
gonna take while...
No small project.  Will be a lot easier to re-produce one one is built.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 14:54
What help can I or others provide towards that, (if any, he says, looking at it rather bewildered!). Just ask if you need anything.

I'll keep thinking about the pulley size to try to be sure.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 15:18
I'm going to drop the exhaust out of the blue car and start trial fitting the supercharger to figure out the subframe.  We'll go from there. Step-by-step. Once we can get the thing in, we will sequentially work through it.  Input...then output.  Don't get daunted, it's amazing how things happen when you work through it sequentially.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 15:49
For the first test run it would be very helpful to have two different SC pulley sizes to allow us to identify differences in performance between the two boost levels. Perhaps 120mm and 110mm would be safe ones to use. This should give about 4.5psi and 5psi. Is this enough of a difference? Might not be, but don't want to melt the pistons...
We will need a wideband o2 sensor to monitor AFRs and a boost guage. Is there anything else anyone can think of, bearing in mind we won't have a sophisticated ECU for data logging?
How do you monitor the knock sensor with just the standard ECU on the engine?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 15:59
Could you mount the engine temporarily without building a full subframe. This would allow us to test the engine and get some idea if it might work, without you going to the trouble of designing and building the full subframe structure? It's up to you, of course.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on June 27, 2016, 16:01
Can anyone translate this into English for me please?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 16:08
I can hear when an engine is knocking.  Perhaps you can start sourcing the pulleys?  Boost gauge is no problem.

I'm going to build the subframe and the exhaust manifold.  That way we do a real-world test.  It's got to have a complete exhaust and it's got to move at some point.

There's no reason why we can't be lining things up in the meantime.  More haste...

We're going to make it work.  I'm the one taking the risk, and I'm happy with that.  

You can drive yourself mad thinking up problems before we get to them.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 16:09
Quote from: "Jrichards20"Can anyone translate this into English for me please?

What would you like translated?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 16:12
How many ribs and what belt width am I looking for on the pulleys?

Presumably a crank pulley / water pump pulley etc of the right size would do? Are any of the other pulleys on the car the right size by chance?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 16:17
Quote from: "Carolyn"I can hear when an engine is knocking.  

I wouldn't dream doubting your expertise, you know that, but wouldn't at least rigging up a strobe or something to the knock sensor be a good idea? I was always under the impression that if a knock can be heard, you  should have caught it sooner.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 16:43
I think it's the ignition timing that may be the biggest problem. We have no way of varying the ignition timing in response to boost levels, unless the adjustable vane MAF would allow us to alter this by tricking the ECU. So maybe we do need it?
My research suggests that "a supercharged engine requires a different advance curve from that of a naturally aspirated engine". This is because it is a "variable compression ratio" engine and as the effective compression ratio increases you need more ignition retard. The standard ECU won't deliver this unless it is modified or tricked to do so.
It is suggested that compared to a naturally aspirated engine, we may need 1-2 deg of ignition retard per 1psi of boost. We need to work out how to deliver this using the standard ECU.
Is there such a thing as a cheap piggyback control unit just for ignition timing control, reacting to boost levels? Could a Raspberry Pi be wired in to the system to achieve this?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 27, 2016, 16:57
The pe uses a 5 psi turbo with stock engine including ecu and injectors but they moved the maf upped the fuel pressure
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 16:58
Sorry for ignorance, what is pe?

Sounds promising though, thanks. Maybe 5psi is within tolerance for standard systems? We're just going to have to try this and see what happens.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 17:00
Could we use 1zz injectors with increased fuel pressure? What pressure increase is achievable and can it be variable over the rpm range?
Also what is standard 1zz injector size at 43.5psi? I can find no good info on this, everything from 230 - 290cc all over the place!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 27, 2016, 17:44
280 from memory a pe stands for power enterprise. They lifted the fuel a bar to 3 bar I think have to double check but 3 rings a bell. Stock system will correct within reason.

Personally if it was me I would pay the money and get an emerald ECU fitted and run a map system.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 17:46
Patrick: you're over complicating things.

If it doesn't work, we'll get an ecu
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 18:31
Quote from: "rbuckingham"280 from memory a pe stands for power enterprise. They lifted the fuel a bar to 3 bar I think have to double check but 3 rings a bell. Stock system will correct within reason.

Personally if it was me I would pay the money and get an emerald ECU fitted and run a map system.

£700 for an emerald.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 18:51
Quote from: "Carolyn"Patrick: you're over complicating things.

If it doesn't work, we'll get an ecu
Hehe I like how the variable MAF valve was simple but hooking up a strobe or led while tweaking is too complicated  s:) :) s:)  

Have to wonder though, once this kit is done and there are any  x solutions to get around a piggyback, wouldn't it be a better idea to just get the piggyback? It is a bit more, I'll give you that, but surely someone must have an ultimate we can borrow for a few months?

Having said that... A map should be unique per car, where mechanical isn't
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 19:18
Wrong Patrick  not you - Lamcote.  Hooking up a strobe ain't a bad idea.  I'm going to try for mechanical first.  If I have to get an ecu, I will.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 19:25
Hmmm, I suspect that rebuke was aimed in my direction, I am Patrick too!

Just getting carried away again!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 19:25
Ahh, yes, thought so. (Sorry I was writing my last post when yours arrived so missed it.)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 19:29
No Patrick '2' not aimed at you.  I'm doing my best to follow the KISS principle, in combination with 'I am not rich' reality.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 19:33
To make it clear: Shnazzle, no rebuke.  Lamcote: slow down, we'll get there.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 19:37
Lamcote rebuked, Shnazzle in the clear, but watch your step!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 19:38
Haha. Noted. As already stated, I do often fall foul of the KISS rule

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 19:49
Sorry guys.  A bit tetchy this afternoon.  Took the exhaust off the blue car, then my hand slipped attempting to remove the idler pulley and took a huge chuck of skin off my arm.  Went into a bit of a shock reaction...  just recovering...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 27, 2016, 19:56
Damn murderous car. Call it a day and sort recovery with a stiff drink

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 19:58
Oooh dear, hope you're OK and not in pain.

Just so you know, I have no objection to a timely rebuke, heehee, it's all good fun.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 27, 2016, 20:37
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "rbuckingham"280 from memory a pe stands for power enterprise. They lifted the fuel a bar to 3 bar I think have to double check but 3 rings a bell. Stock system will correct within reason.

Personally if it was me I would pay the money and get an emerald ECU fitted and run a map system.

£700 for an emerald.

Yep but it's a standalone so up for the job regardless of the engine.

But as I knew you were budgeting I thought I would mention the PE kit method as it uses stock ECU and injectors.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 21:07
Would a plastic water pump pulley be adequate or will it need to be metal?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 27, 2016, 21:23
It's got to handle a lot of power, metal, I would think.  I'll see if we can modify an idler pulley (has a bearing in it...)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 27, 2016, 21:37
Oh, isn't the bearing in the supercharger itself, I've been looking at lots of pulleys and they don't seem to have bearings in, they just have flat plates in the centre that bolt on to a shaft. I told you, you can't trust me with anything technical!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 07:28
- the idler pulley has a bearing in it.  You're on the right track.  We want ones without bearings.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 08:39
The end of the shaft is 19mm in diameter.  Don't know if it's tapered or keyed or both.  Going to have to pull it off.

It's an interference fit.   I've found loads of smaller ones to increase boost.  No bigger ones yet.  going off this idea...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 09:17
We can also limit boost with the bypass valve, it's controllable.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 28, 2016, 09:25
Quote from: "Carolyn"We can also limit boost with the bypass valve, it's controllable.

That's why I figured a manual boost controller would be an idea.
Just not sure how that works on a SC to be honest. Can you plumb a manual boost controller into the SC bypass valve? Or perhaps change the spring in the valve?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 09:27
 m http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/spa120-1 ... um-pulley/ (http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/spa120-1-aluminium-pulley/) m

Is this any good?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 09:28
Is the bypass just on or off though, or does it have graduated adjustment?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 09:48
Don't know.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 10:04
I suspect it will be on or off only as it's only really designed to be there to recirculate the air (and remove all boost) on part throttle to aid economy.

If so it can be used to switch the boost on or off, but not vary it like a wastegate would (subject to your hacking skills to make it do otherwise).
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 10:04
Any thoughts on the pulley I linked to?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 10:27
It needs to be a proper pulley for a ribbed belt.  Not going to be easy to find a pulley by the looks of it.  Manual boost control looks like a viable alternative.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 10:37
Could Widermuller make a pulley, it's a bit like a bigger HVAC knob!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 28, 2016, 10:58
We could make one...  
I'm going to leave this all alone for a few days and mull things over.  I'ts my wallet and I need to think it through..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 28, 2016, 11:14
Quote from: "Carolyn"We could make one...  
I'm going to leave this all alone for a few days and mull things over.  I'ts my wallet and I need to think it through..

we've driven her to insanity already boys  s:) :) s:)  
Retreat! RETREAT!

Good decision Carolyn. We'll all have a spy around to see what's what, bearing (no pun intended) in mind costs first and foremost.

From the looks of it, older american muscle cars are the best sources for larger SC pulleys it seems. So, that should narrow down the search. Perhaps forums for Dodge Chargers or Pontiac Firebirds?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 11:21
Well spotted shnazzle, I'll keep looking and hope Carolyn and her wallet make friends again.

What are your specific concerns? Is it one or two specific elements being discussed or the whole project?

I'm sure we can find a way through one way or another.

If it helps, the way I see it is; we have some options for the engine:

1) Proceed without a piggyback ECU and with a 120mm pulley. Saves a wad of cash, nice challenge, but needs a lot of tinkering time and may not be successful.
2) Proceed by buying a piggyback ECU and use the standard pulley. Costs more, less challenge, but I reckon it guarantees success quite quickly.
3) Proceed by borrowing a piggyback ECU and use the standard pulley. Saves the cash but probably guarantees quick success. Win Win (but less challenge, other than finding the ECU somewhere)?

All of the above depend on the subframe development of course, are you still happy with this bit?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2016, 12:39
a supercharger should be set to produce its max boost by sizing the pulley. the bypass valve is to be opened like on a turbo system to stop compressor stall. now compressor stall on a turbo makes noises and gives lag however on a supercharger it will be more catastrophic with the charger stopping and belts slipping
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 28, 2016, 12:43
What causes compressor stall in a supercharger? Is it the throttle being closed suddenly when on boost?

If so does the by-pass valve have two purposes:
1. Prevent stall/surge when throttle is closed suddenly
2. Improve part throttle fuel economy by recirculating air (cutting boost) in low load cruising

Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2016, 16:21
Correct
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 28, 2016, 23:13
If you have some specs of the pulley (fag packet sketch with dimensions will suffice) I'll see what I can come up with
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 08:04
SC pulley is 65.5mm. Mini crank pulley is 138.7mm. This apparently gives around 10.5-11psi on the 1.6l Mini.
I have estimated that the same SC pulley on the 1.8l 1zz with a 135mm crank pulley will give around 8.5psi. Both engines redline at 6,800.
What do you reckon?
Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 08:09
The SC pulley is interference fit on a 19 mm shaft.  The outer surface is for a standard 5 groove flat belt.  Lamcote:  How have you calculated pulley sizes?  Perhaps you can post the target RPM for the SC and we can check your calcs.  Still mulling it over....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 09:09
The simple version is:

1.6l is 0.88888 of 1.8l
138.7/65.5 = 2.12 and 135/65.5 = 2.06
2.06/2.12 = 0.97
10.5psi * 0.888 * 0.97 = 9psi
Assume our layout is 5% less efficient than the OEM Mini
9 * .95 = 8.5psi

If you look up the proper way to calculate pulley ratios it seems to pretty much tally with this outcome.

The internet says the M45 shouldn't spin past 14,000rpm at peak power. It is safe to higher revs (16,000?) but it is not efficient beyond 14,000.

The standard Mini M45 spins at 11,660rpm at peak power and with aftermarket 15% pulleys spins at 13,409rpm at peak power of 5,500.

1zz would spin it at 13,184rpm at its peak power revs of 6,400.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 09:38
Have you found the Mini SC outlet pipe yet. I have come up with one more option that could remove the need for a new subframe and would use most of the standard Mini plumbing!! I would need accurate measurements of the fully assembled SC with the big outlet pipe attached to test the theory.

I know you like having the new subframe, but if we could delete that it would make the cost of including a piggyback ECU more affordable and that would simplify the whole project so I thought it was worth ruling in/out.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 09:44
Target RPM for SC?  I'm struggling to see how you arrived at 120 mm...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 09:44
Slow down.  Yes I've found it does not clear the exhaust maniold.  Let go of your subframe fear.  Can we please, do one thing at a time?  Pulley size!

BTW It was the inlet we were looking for.  I have the outlet stuff.  How do you propose to deal with the fact that the supercharger fouls the subframe?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 09:51
1.6l is 0.88888 of 1.8l
138.7/65.5 = 2.12 and 135/120 = 1.125
1.125/2.12 = 0.53
10.5psi * 0.888 * 0.53 = 5psi
Assume our layout is 5% less efficient than the OEM Mini
5 * .95 = 4.7psi

That spins the SC at 7,200 at 1zz peak power
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 09:52
I meant the tall wide pipe that sits on top of the SC.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:01
TARGET RPM?  That is the inlet.  Now... pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:03
No, that is the outlet, it connects the SC to the intercooler positioned on top of the Mini engine.

See post at 8:51am for the 120mm pulley calcs.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:08
I've just been outside and spun the SC in the direction of rotation of the engine.  It blows out the bottom.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:10
The air goes up round the outside of the screws against the case wall, not squeezed down between the rotors in the middle, so it actually comes out the top.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:14
Just checked - you're right. Now pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:16
See post above at 8:51am for 120mm calcs.

Here below:

1.6l is 0.88888 of 1.8l
138.7/65.5 = 2.12 and 135/120 = 1.125
1.125/2.12 = 0.53
10.5psi * 0.888 * 0.53 = 5psi
Assume our layout is 5% less efficient than the OEM Mini
5 * .95 = 4.7psi

That spins the SC at 7,200 at 1zz peak power
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:18
Have you accounted for loss of SC efficiency at 7,200 rpm?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 10:19
Some 2zz injectors just came up for sale for 70 quid.
 l viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59416&p=691910#p691910 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59416&p=691910#p691910) l
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:21
That's handy.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:24
I am assuming that the SC makes about straight line boost with engine revs in the Mini. It produces max torque all the way from 1,700 - 4,500rpm so it must be pretty efficient at those revs. So if the Mini produces decent boost at 3,400 engine rpm we should get the same kind of performance at 6,400 engine rpm?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 10:26
Quote from: "Carolyn"That's handy.

Well the rest of this conversation is out of my league so figured I'd contribute SOMETHING  s:D :D s:D  haha
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:28
Lamcote.  The best I can find off the shelf is a 96mm
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 10:30
Quote from: "Carolyn"Lamcote.  The best I can find off the shelf is a 96mm

Essex2Visuvesi offered to have a look at a custom one, in case that post was missed in the frenzy
 l viewtopic.php?p=691884#p691884 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=691884#p691884) l
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:32
BTW  To use the stock outlet, the SC has to be moved a further 25 mm form the engine.  No problem -except even more reason for the subframe.  Well if you're convinced and I think you've convinced me about 120mm well have to make one.  Please explore that kind offer.

I'm away for the day now.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:38
If my other calcs are anywhere near, the 96mm pulley would give:

1.6l is 0.88888 of 1.8l
138.7/65.5 = 2.12 and 135/96 = 1.4
1.4/2.12 = 0.66
10.5psi * 0.888 * 0.66 = 6.1psi
Assume our layout is 5% less efficient than the OEM Mini
6 * .95 = 5.8psi

That spins the SC at 8,960 at 1zz peak power.

That could deliver c.200bhp so (in line with my previous logic!?!?) the ideal injector size would be 320cc. BUT my calcs/assumptions can't be THAT accurate so 310cc may still do.

Do we go for it with 96mm pulley and 310cc injectors?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 10:42
Does that assume the 310s are running at 100%? That's obviously a bit sketchy
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:43
No, about 92.5%. I always build in margins!


The only reason I suggested 120mm was to give a very safe boost level. If getting a 120mm pulley is prohibitive then 96mm isn't too much more. It's about 5.75psi rather then 4.5psi. That may not be too far off the mark? Who knows, it could even work out better if we try it??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 10:46
Last shot before I get in the shower.  We aren't that interested in 6,500 rpm performance anyway....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 10:49
Quote from: "Carolyn"Last shot before I get in the shower.  We aren't that interested in 6,500 rpm performance anyway....

That's definitely true for me.
I'm very interested in this kit even if it barely hits 200hp, simply for the power delivery UP to about 5000.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 10:53
No we're not, I agree, but for this to have any chance of working without a piggyback we need to manage to match the airflow to the fixed fueling levels we have (produced by the bigger injector size coupled with the standard non adjustable map), rather than the usual way which is to set your injectors to match whatever your airflow is, by using a piggyback.

It therefore needs to work across the whole rev range, otherwise it probably won't work anywhere.

We are sort of reverse engineering the fuel mapping.

Ignition timing is then the big issue for me, but the lower the boost, the less this may matter. Hence, another reason for the suggestion of a 120mm pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 11:00
I reckon this is a proof of concept and we know it will be better with ECU, but that's for later and bigger budgets. If this can be done mechanically, it means it's flexible as well for budgets...to a certain degree.
Smaller/stock pulley and piggyback could just be Stg2 of the CarolynCharger  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 11:01
Yep, that's how I see it too.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 11:41
How does the standard ECU control the injectors? Does it apply a specific duty cycle or does it just open them for a certain period of time?

If it is by duty cycle, is it possible to find out what duty cycle the standard ECU map drives the standard injectors in open loop?

If it is a period of time, is it possible to find out what that time is, in open loop, and then convert this to a duty cycle percentage?

Presumably if the standard injector is driven at 80% duty cycle at a given load site, the ECU would then drive a bigger injector at the same 80% figure, in open loop?

EDIT: Yes you can convert injector opening times to duty cycle %.

SO, can anyone tell me how long (in Milliseconds) the standard ECU opens the injectors at various load points in open loop, or even just at max power (6,400rpm) with wide open throttle?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 12:27
Quote from: "lamcote"How does the standard ECU control the injectors? Does it apply a specific duty cycle or does it just open them for a certain period of time?

If it is by duty cycle, is it possible to find out what duty cycle the standard ECU map drives the standard injectors in open loop?

If it is a period of time, is it possible to find out what that time is, in open loop, and then convert this to a duty cycle percentage?

Presumably if the standard injector is driven at 80% duty cycle at a given load site, the ECU would then drive a bigger injector at the same 80% figure, in open loop?

EDIT: Yes you can convert injector opening times to duty cycle %.

SO, can anyone tell me how long (in Milliseconds) the standard ECU opens the injectors at various load points in open loop, or even just at max power (6,400rpm) with wide open throttle?

Wouldn't that be reverse engineering the stock ECU mapping? Which hasn't been possible. We don't know what kind of calculations the ECU applies to calculate injector pulses. I'm not even sure we know all of the parameters it takes into consideration or how many tables it has.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 12:44
That's a shame.

Yes it would be, but that would help us to predict what the new fuel level delivered with the new injectors will be, and we could therefore estimate how closely that might match the new airflow.

eg if we knew the standard ECU opens the injectors at 85% duty cycle at 6,400 and wide open throttle, we could calculate how much more fuel we will have with the yellow injectors installed and then estimate whether the predicted airflow we will have would be about right/wrong. However, for all we know, the standard ECU might open the injectors at 80% or 77% or 83% etc etc at that load site, so we can't know how much fuel we will be getting at that load site when the new injectors go in.

EDIT: Unless we can just assume that the injectors will deliver the same percentage more fuel as the percentage increase in max flow. ie 310/280=1.107 ie 11% more. Is it as simple as that? Probably is thinking about? It would be nice to check the map though.

Presumably we will be able to measure the AFR once it is all up and running and try to work it all out from there.

Are the standard injectors really 280cc? I am sure I have seen 240cc/250cc elsewhere but it is hard to find a definitive answer.

EDIT2: Just checked MWR website and they reckon standard 1zz injectors are rated at 255cc/min. (Yesterday's assumptions were based on 240cc standard size so I'll need to redo the numbers below.) That would mean 310cc yellows give 21.5% more fuel at any given point in the map, so:

standard 140bhp * 1.215 = 170bhp. So we should have fuel for 170bhp and would therefore need airflow for 170bhp. Current predictions based on airflow available are 190-200bhp on 120mm-96mm pulleys....OK or risking going lean?? Should we be looking for brown injectors~:
330/255=1.295
140*1.295 = 182bhp

Yes I know I'm rambling.

To clarify:
Based on the above assumptions, 330cc injectors should provide fuel for 182bhp on the standard ECU map (assuming peak power AFR stays the same)
120mm pulley would give air for c.190bhp
Is this the best way to go initially?? Unless someone can improve on the assumptions/predictions/calculations?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 13:33
It's a lot of pressure to put the stock ECU under.
Do we even know if the injector lag times are the same/similar between the 1zz and brown injectors? Are we asking the ECU to compensate for too much?

I suspect the 2zz 310s won't be that different but once you go to an entirely different injector...

Or does it not make a difference because of the actual cam profile of the 1zz?

So many variables. That's my point; is it fair to assume the stock ECU can sort it all out just by adjusting timing, cycles, pulses, etc?

EDIT: Think I can answer my own question;....won't know until we try  s:) :) s:)  haha
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 13:38
I think the point is that I expect the ECU won't make ANY compensations in open loop (ignoring LTFTs for the moment!). To do any prediction we need to assume the injector performance is comparable. What impact does lag time have and can we find specs for these?

Done a search. Yes it makes a difference, no specs available. Agreed, only way forward is to test.

Need to agree on the spec: 96mm or 120mm pulley and 310cc or 330cc injectors?

I favour 120mm and 330cc as safest option but I am notoriously risk averse and very easily persuaded.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 29, 2016, 15:31
Well look, this project is welcome to the use of my Yellow injectors... maybe we should ask someone on the Celica forum if they have some browns we can test with as well?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 15:37
That's the spirit, thanks very much indeed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 16:16
Brilliant!

Ok, I'll man up....
I'll offer up my eManage Blue with harness temporarily, if need be. But only if the maps on there can be stored SAFELY! I don't want to lose them.
Rather not of course  s:) :) s:)  I'd get pretty fed up with my car without the extra pull.

Problem is of course that it is a Blue. So might not do what we need.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 17:21
Wow that's excellent. As you say, not sure what the difference between the Blue and Ultimate is. Have you any documentation that might explain it? I'll have a look at their website.
Hopefully we won't need a piggyback of course so your maps would be safe.
We are getting some more momentum going now. Brill!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 17:24
If you look it up the Ultimate had about an A4 sheet full of features over the Blue. Question is whether we need them.
One thing I know for sure is that the ultimate has plugs in the front for a extra sensors (such as a map sensor) and the blue doesn't. And the table sizes are 16x16 vs 20x20 on the ultimate. Just means the map is less smooth. But it does interpolate so probably won't feel it.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 29, 2016, 19:13
Ok
Just to be sure were singing from the same hymn sheet

You need one of these in 120mm?
 m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331888292552 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331888292552) m

Also where is the 120mm diameter referenced to? by that i mean in the peak or trough of the grooves?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 19:27
That's it.  Biggest I can find is from the States (96 mm).  Peak of the grooves.  In fact I think they go by the overall diameter, which is a bit imprecise.  ID is for interference fit on 19.182 mm shaft.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 29, 2016, 19:33
OK thanks for the claiification
So I'll source a standard pulley and machine a new one to the same dimensions other than the diameter.

I was going to go for a turbo kit on mine, but this looks interesting.
I have an Apexi FC on the way from Japan if its any use?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 19:44
That's a real help.  I've got the machine-shop pretty busy right now. Each mini-groove is tapered - not a simple thing to turn.  Please understand, we may not succeed.... I expect we will but it will take time.
You're on the list for a subframe at cost.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 29, 2016, 19:48
I'll pull the one off the SC and send it to you.  Please PM your address,
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 20:56
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"OK thanks for the claiification
So I'll source a standard pulley and machine a new one to the same dimensions other than the diameter.

I was going to go for a turbo kit on mine, but this looks interesting.
I have an Apexi FC on the way from Japan if its any use?
Apexi FC would be miles ahead of the  emanage blue. Harder to tune, but faaaaar more suitable
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 21:23
Brilliant, this must be the best forum on the Web. Thanks to everyone for their input and help. I really hope we can pull this off.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 29, 2016, 21:29
Quote from: "shnazzle"
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"OK thanks for the claiification
So I'll source a standard pulley and machine a new one to the same dimensions other than the diameter.

I was going to go for a turbo kit on mine, but this looks interesting.
I have an Apexi FC on the way from Japan if its any use?
Apexi FC would be miles ahead of the  emanage blue. Harder to tune, but faaaaar more suitable

A big but wit the Apexi tho is the Price, as this is supposed to be a Low-Cost conversion and the Apexi is around 800quid, add to that another the 200 for the programmer its gonna make a big dent in the budget.
I'm happy to loan mine out as I was going to go down the turbo route, but I'm now having second thoughts as this looks to be a more fun way to go.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 22:15
It's a fine point. But I guess we'd just be proving that with a map, regardless on what, this works well.

I'm still for the idea of trying mechanical first,and have the blue or fc as a backup

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 29, 2016, 22:22
Just gone back and read through the entire thread and I have some more thoughts

With regards to charge cooling a couple of thoughts to add to the mix:-
Water injection?
I used an aquamist with great success on a highly modified Renault 5 GT Turbo many years ago and also the AEM on my Wife's old Startlet rally car

As the boost pressures are quite low and space is limited then the  GT Turbo intercooler could be a posibility (these were used as an upgrade to the Smart Roadster stock item)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 22:23
Would cooling even be necessary at these boost levels? I know it's better...but is it necessary?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 22:25
Me too.

If it finishes up needing a piggyback /standalone to work, people will inevitably chose their own solution anyway. We could still develop a standard map on one of the (cheaper) options to keep costs down, but if we've proved it works (on one of the ECUs currently on offer), one of us would be ordering one of these anyway so at that point we could use that one.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 22:34
It's on the cusp for cooling. Less than c.4psi means intercooling can actually lose power because the pressure drop across the intercooler (assuming typical flow efficiency) more than offsets the gain from lower air temps. However if we get the predicted 5ish psi, added to the fact that the supercharger is tucked under the exhaust manifold (so likely to get hot), I feel intercooling would be preferable. Also the space limitation is around the siting of the supercharger itself, there should be relatively more room available for the plumbing.

If we finish up using the standard Mini supercharger outlet pipe we probably need to use the Mini intercooler because of the odd shapes involved. If not the Renault option sounds worth looking at.

Water cooling again is an option although I worry about putting water through the engine, not sure if that's fair, but I do (rust, leaks etc) and a normal intercooler is probably a lot more straightforward (and reliable?) if there is the space.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 22:38
What about the water meth option mentioned above?
Not only will it reduce temperatures, it will also provide extra protection  against knock.
It could be knocked up relatively cheaply

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 22:42
See above. Added after your last question. Personally I would tend to only use water injection on top of normal intercooling if it proved to be a necessary requirement.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 22:45
The atomisation is such that all water is burned. The metal doesn't have a chance to oxidise as the oxygen is used in combustion in ridiculously small amounts of time

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 22:47
Hmm, full atomisation even at the point in time you turn the engine off? Potentially leaving water lying in the engine, combustion chamber and cast iron cylinder liners all the time it is switched off? I think I mentioned earlier, I am notoriously risk averse!!

BUT this, along with everything else I write in this thread is nothing more than my opinion, it counts for no more than yours. I'm under no illusions, it's Carolyn's project, I'm just hoping to play a part in helping bring it to reality.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 29, 2016, 22:50
Quote from: "shnazzle"The atomisation is such that all water is burned. The metal doesn't have a chance to oxidise as the oxygen is used in combustion in ridiculously small amounts of time

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
EDIT: depending of course on where it is injected  s:) :) s:)  Closer to the chamber the better and less chance of rust
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on June 29, 2016, 23:04
A few thoughts:

I would run the supercharger to produce good horsepower at near the stock cars peak output. To produce boost into a larger engine, it will need to be slightly overdriven.

Fueling wise, a rising rate FPR may save you messing about with injectors and leave mapping tweaks minimal.

 m http://www.turbosmartusa.com/technical- ... -fpr-work/ (http://www.turbosmartusa.com/technical-articles/how-does-an-fpr-work/) m

Ignition timing will need some degree of compensation.

Using the mini supercharger gives a very cheap blower, but the money saved could easily be eaten up by the cost of a subframe unless you have there diy skills, so as a one off, it's good in cost terms, but could work out more expensive as a kit. There are cheap Eaton blowers around that are easier to mount and have bigger horsepower and torque potential.

When working out power against boost, you needed to take into account the amount of that power used to drive the blower.

I'm liking the look of this project, but it does look to be a whole heap of variables. I would be trying to keep it as simple as possible. Good luck!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 29, 2016, 23:17
Thanks Chris. I haven't ever got my head round the FPR thing. Does that work OK on the 1zz variable fuel pressure and non return fuel rail system? Also to make 255cc injectors flow like 310cc ones needs c.70psi, might that not blow the fuel rail seals etc?

The boost calcs do make an allowance for the different engine capacities.

Ignition timing is indeed a concern.

Which other superchargers are you thinking of?

The power increase percentage assumptions do implicitly account for the power used to drive the blower.

Keep the thoughts coming, the more help the better.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 08:08
The SC can be protected with a heat -shield.  The Mini intercooler and outlet can't be used.  It will sit directly above the hottest part of the exhaust and can't be shielded. (It needs air flow).  It's more likely to act as a heater than a cooler. We will have to fabricate the output plate and pipe, which is ok, but it won't produce the same result as the standard Mini one.  That means we will only know actual boost when we put a boost gauge on a running system.  That may well mean a second pulley.

At some point, the addition of variables and ideas has to stop so that something can be built.  Once built, it has to be tested under load, so the subframe is a must.  David and I are going to make a jig for making the subframe as the suspension mounting points are angled and have to be pretty precise.  Once a jig is built, more subframes can be produced.  What are they likely to cost?  We will know when we've built one.

Now we need to settle on a 'stage one' plan of exactly what we're going to build first, or we will never proceed.  You guys know your stuff and the discussions have been productive.  Can we, now narrow it down to one set-up.  Then we can test and replace speculation with observed evidence.
I'm open to a different supercharger, especially if it gets us around the subframe issue.

ChrisGB: Thanks for your considered input, any particular SC you have in mind?

Last point,: You can think this thing to death. You can't possibly spot all the issues in advance and there will doubtless be a fairly big one that is entirely un-predicted.  It's the nature of such projects.  The main reason I want to keep costs to a minimum is the simple fact it might not work out.  If we can get a decent working result, then it can be refined.
 
Let's set a deadline of 30 days to arrive at the 'stage one' plan?  That gives time for reflection and it will, in the end, speed things up.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 08:43
Agreed, excellent plan.

Given your comment about getting "around the subframe issue" are you now open to consider my alternative mounting idea, or should I forget it? I'm happy to go with whatever you decide.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 08:56
No, I'm not happy with that.  That was settled between us when you were here.  We can't keep going over old ground.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 09:05
OK, subframe topic closed. We need to decide on a final test spec.

My suggested "mechanical" (ie standard ECU) test spec, order of preference is:

1st. 120mm pulley with 330cc injectors
2nd. 120mm pulley with 310cc injectors
3rd. 96mm pulley with 330cc injectors

Which one do others prefer most?

Personally I would include an intercooler but not incorporate water injection.

Is there anything else to specify at this stage?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 09:42
Regarding the eManage Blue v Ultimate discussion.

If we finish up needing an ECU upgrade, it appears that the Blue can only control fuel maps, not ignition. Is this really correct? If so, Blue is no good to us. (Shnazzle's maps are safe!)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 09:50
I believe Blue can do it with the extra harness. Which I believe I have incorporated in my harness because there are plugs there that I can see on the standard harness.
I'll double check this. But there is definitely an ignitionmap

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 10:01
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160630/6ac955d8cae1da4bc02e14ac7b3a205d.jpg)

Left on that pic are the 8 ignition harness wires.
Confirmed this on another post on here with the wiring instructions.
 l viewtopic.php?p=637494&sid=eaf508dfb26806b5ca40025535fa4b82#p637494 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=637494&sid=eaf508dfb26806b5ca40025535fa4b82#p637494) l
So yes, we're in luck. My harness even comes with ignition wiring  s:) :) s:)  
Win.

On top of that, I noticed a Boost port in the back. Not sure how I missed this before but I suspect this is for a map sensor.

So... Sorted.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 10:03
Excellent news. Do you have a spec sheet for that thing? I can't find much real detail about either of them.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 10:53
Quote from: "lamcote"Excellent news. Do you have a spec sheet for that thing? I can't find much real detail about either of them.

Not really but this is from the manual:

12v system
Control factory injectors at 5RPM points (I think via the 5 dials at the front) with airflow meter or MAP signal inputs
VTEC control
Data logging and real time monitoring
Fine fuel adjustment with addition 16 RPM points
Control larger injectors and airflow meters
(with harness) control injector duty cycle and ignition timing
Ability to control 2 sub-injectors (thinking this would be great to control water injection if so desired)
trace fuel map in real time
Boost limiter cut


Just to add more happy news, I also have the injector control wiring in the harness. So, I've got the mother of all emanage blue harnesses! Injector, ignition and base. Only thing I could add is a MAP sensor. Happy days. Thank you robsonic
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: tatieu on June 30, 2016, 13:02
Stock injectors are 260cc it seems to me
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 15:27
Merci!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 15:33
Shnazzle, can you get some data logging done on your engine. Some data on injector pulse width, ignition timing, air flow and air temperature each graphed/tabled against throttle opening (load) and revs. How do the fuel trims show up as affecting the fueling?

Is that possible on your ECU?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 16:04
I cannot because I can't get the damn cables to work! I've got two. I think it's my laptop that's the problem. I'm going to borrow an older laptop tonight and then I'll see if I can connect.
Not sure I can log pulse widths and the like mind

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 16:12
OK. Are there some base maps that are available for piggyback ECUs for this engine that we can get hold of and view the data in a spreadsheet? A supercharger (probably only turbo available) one and a naturally aspirated one to compare would be amazing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 16:16
Quote from: "shnazzle"I cannot because I can't get the damn cables to work! I've got two. I think it's my laptop that's the problem. I'm going to borrow an older laptop tonight and then I'll see if I can connect.
Not sure I can log pulse widths and the like mind

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

A lot of this stuff only works on Windows XP.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 16:20
XP!!!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 16:23
Could try running XP in VirtualBox?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 17:00
Quote from: "lamcote"XP!!!!

Really.  All my mechanic friends run diagnostics and flashing on XP
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 17:05
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "lamcote"XP!!!!

Really.  All my mechanic friends run diagnostics and flashing on XP

Many of the connectivity issues are down to the Serial-USB convertors people try to use.  Most of them don't work too well causing communication issues & "lag" in the data stream

Shout if you need an XP laptop with a true 9 pin serial port. I have an old dell sitting here specifically for this reason
Its running an SSD too so its quite lively   s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 17:10
Oh and its payday today so bought myself a supercharger  s:D :D s:D

Going to design and make up some outlet flanges for the outlet and pass them onto Carolyn with the 120mm pulley, should make fabrication easier
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 17:15
You absolute star

Carolyn: I hope your friends don't go on the internet with their XP machines...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 17:19
Quote from: "lamcote"You absolute star

No Problem.
I might be able to offer up a second one if I can find another PSU pack
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 17:22
Quote from: "lamcote"You absolute star

Carolyn: I hope your friends don't go on the internet with their XP machines...

One NEVER goes on the internet with one's garage computer.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 17:28
Oh, I see.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 17:30
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "lamcote"You absolute star

Carolyn: I hope your friends don't go on the internet with their XP machines...

One NEVER goes on the internet with one's garage computer.

(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/69166566.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 17:32
I know. That's why I'm borrowing an XP laptop today  s:) :) s:)   The software was built for Win98. Win 2000 at a push,which is why it works on XP

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 17:35
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Oh and its payday today so bought myself a supercharger  s:D :D s:D

Going to design and make up some outlet flanges for the outlet and pass them onto Carolyn with the 120mm pulley, should make fabrication easier

That is very kind of you.  I'm struggling to remove the pulley without buying a special puller, as I'd rather not use heat on it.  Probably will end up getting the special puller! (Or persuading David to make one...

With you on board, and therefore a parallel project in progress, I think it might be good for me to take a more of a back seat for now.  I've been finding this a bit stressful, to be honest.  We will work on the subframe and follow on on the rest of it.  I'm not quitting, but I am slowing it down for my part.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 17:44
The challenge is to pull it off without bending it.
The correct tool spreads the load around the pulley... shouldn't be too hard to "Macgyver" something
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 17:50
You're right  we'll have a go over the weekend.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on June 30, 2016, 17:51
There's absolutely no rush Carolyn, don't get stressed whatever you do. I know I keep firing stuff around on here but I'm in no hurry whatsoever. Looking forward to seeing the results of the subframe solution as and when it arrives.
Thanks again for starting this all off, we'll get there in time.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 18:36
Other laptop ended up being Win7 as well. And it's a piece of sh1t and I want to toss it out the window.
I need to just buy a cable from GiffTech with software, which works on Win7.
Sick of this. I'm not trying anymore using DIY stuff

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 19:22
I have a little netbook on XP -but it's lent out at the moment...

On another note, I need to photograph the mounting brackets so you don't have to re-invent them.  There's also provision for an extra idler wheel to enable the belt to clear the bottom of the tensioner spring unit.  We're making ours using a skateboard wheel - don't laugh, they're tough. Got a couple of spares.  This will especially be needed with a 120 mm pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on June 30, 2016, 19:27
These guys have tons of cheap netbooks on XP.

 m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acer-Aspire-O ... Swc1FXcU8I (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acer-Aspire-One-ZG5-Atom-N270-1-60GHz-1GB-RAM-Netbook-160GB-HDD-Windows-XP-/361618807747?hash=item5432291bc3:g:4loAAOSwc1FXcU8I) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 20:22
I'm going to have to borrow. I'm going to check again as I had someone lined up to lend me a laptop

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on June 30, 2016, 21:13
Quote from: "shnazzle"I'm going to have to borrow. I'm going to check again as I had someone lined up to lend me a laptop

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

If not give a shout and you're welcome to have a loan of mine
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 30, 2016, 22:33
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"
Quote from: "shnazzle"I'm going to have to borrow. I'm going to check again as I had someone lined up to lend me a laptop

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

If not give a shout and you're welcome to have a loan of mine
Cool thanks. Will do
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on July 1, 2016, 11:49
Once upon a time......

I had a netbook on Win7, I bought Gifftech cable and software......

And it worked without trouble.
Must have taken all of 15 minutes to order, install and get working.

Then i tried it on a full size laptop running Windows7 ............ it worked.


I haven't tried it on Win10 64bit yet.


The moral of this fairy tale?
Why bother f---ing about when there's something available that's reasonably priced?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 1, 2016, 11:51
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Once upon a time......

I had a netbook on Win7, I bought Gifftech cable and software......

And it worked without trouble.
Must have taken all of 15 minutes to order, install and get working.

Then i tried it on a full size laptop running Windows7 ............ it worked.


I haven't tried it on Win10 64bit yet.


The moral of this fairy tale?
Why bother f---ing about when there's something available that's reasonably priced?

Exactly.
Good to know that it works on a "normal" laptop as well.
DEfinitely ordering this then. It'll have to wait a month though
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on July 2, 2016, 09:06
Shnazzle, is it possible to connect the Emanage ECU to the car and set it up with a neutral map which applies no changes at all to the fuel and ignition timing? Could we then log the settings the car is running on in that state? If so, this would allow us to determine what the standard ECU's fuel/ignition maps are.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 3, 2016, 07:37
Yup you can just zero all the cells, in which case it just runs without any adjustments. Then monitor. Although, as I said, I don't know exactly what kind of monitoring it offers

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on July 3, 2016, 08:36
That could be helpful. Does the Blue have a lot less logging capability than the Ultimate?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 3, 2016, 08:58
Quote from: "lamcote"That could be helpful. Does the Blue have a lot less logging capability than the Ultimate?
Not sure. I suspect you can log everything we need to log. The blue can adjust timing and pulses so surely it has to see what the current values are to do so.
So I assume we can log anything of any relevance. Air flow, timing, fueling... Pressure if a gauge is connected...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on July 3, 2016, 11:52
Just as an update, I have looked up the option of variable/higher fuel pressure as mentioned by Chris earlier. As far as I can see, with our returnless fuel system, implementing higher/variable fuel pressure would seem to cost in the region of £300. This is a significant chunk of the cost of just buying a piggyback ECU, be more complex to fit and have less flexibility. So, unless anyone can point us to a simple and cheap version, I don't see this as a viable option.

As another thought regarding my ignition timing worry. If we accept that the assumption about needing 1-2deg of ignition retard/psi of boost is correct. At our projected max boost of c.5psi we will need up to c.10deg of retard. If we use super unleaded fuel for our test runs, that might buy us (at least?) that much timing advance, so it's just possible that would solve the ignition timing issue....??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 3, 2016, 13:29
So we rigged up a puller that spreads the load, and applied a bit of heat.  Stuck.  Gave it as much force as reasonable.  I don't believe this would come off with the specialist puller either.

We're going to cut it off, I'm afraid, so no sample for making the new one.  On the other hand, we know the shaft diameter and the groove pattern is the same as the idler pulley.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 2, 2016, 20:47
I'm sure I have some spare mini pullies to hand if it helps reverse engineer what you need

I'm new to the forum but wife owned a 2005 mr2 from new to 70k,
so fairly familiar with the car, serviced by Matt @ Silverstone performance

Hopefully I can bring somthing to this thread having ran a supercharged r53 MCS and over 2008 squeezed another 100 or so bhp out of it, sold on at 140,000 Miles end of last year, still going strong on std bottom end, oem clutch and gearbox

Stock injectors 340 are good for 170 bhp

Jcw injectors 380 are good for 210 bhp

440 and 550 injectors used by various mini tuners to over 300bhp
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 2, 2016, 22:03
Interesting, what mods were required to get a 100bhp increase, also what boost pressure? I have read on Mini forums that the M45 supercharger doesn't easily deliver more than c.240bhp, did you have to modify it? Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 2, 2016, 22:23
In summary (ignoring lots of additional supporting mods which may or may not have added ponies along the way)

240 bhp with 17% pulley, janspeed manifold and miltec cat back exhaust from 10k -30k

270- ish, with newmancam, ported, polished Valved head, 440 injectors custom tune, bigger intercooler from 30k to 90k

Last few hp found with -20pulley 550 injectors, catcam, Aquamist water/meth injection  (as supporting mod for track temps) from 90k to 140k

Not sure on boost, as bigger intercooler and better flowing head reduced obd values, but around 18 psi at stage one,

Only unexpected cost beyond modding was for an additional supercharger brought at 80k just in case, and allowing car to be daily driven whilst spare was cam coated ( Warrington)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 2, 2016, 22:27
Great thanks, are newmancam and catcam sports camshafts?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 2, 2016, 22:32
Yep different lift and duration overlap etc

Mini only needs one, just choose where you want the power to arrive
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 5, 2016, 16:17
Kavs is the man who can provide custom mini pullies
He has done all mine including fitting an upgrade at Santa pod in 20 minutes (2 part item makes swaps easier)
He also can help with another popular choice   s:D :D s:D  

 m http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/lotus-sup ... ey-upgrade (http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/lotus-supercharger-pulley-upgrade) m

Apologies if link is stepping on anyone's toes still learning the ropes here
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 6, 2016, 12:43
Quote from: "Blue al"Kavs is the man who can provide custom mini pullies
He has done all mine including fitting an upgrade at Santa pod in 20 minutes (2 part item makes swaps easier)
He also can help with another popular choice   s:D :D s:D  

 m http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/lotus-sup ... ey-upgrade (http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/lotus-supercharger-pulley-upgrade) m

Apologies if link is stepping on anyone's toes still learning the ropes here

Nope, such links are very welcome and helpful.

New development.  We've figured out and fabricated the supercharger outlet and got the exhaust manifold mod under way.  We've looked, measured, sucked teeth, measured and discussed the subframe.  We've come to the conclusion that an existing subframe can be modified quite simply to accomodate clearance for the super charger.  Makes the whole project much more practical.

Will post pics in the next few days.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on August 6, 2016, 14:38
I'm still following this one and will help out where I can  s:) :) s:)

I'm now investigating the 13B-REW or Renesis route   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 6, 2016, 15:02
Looks radical.  We'll plate it in using heavy guage steel.  This is a practice piece, we'll be using a better condition subframe.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160806_144452.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160806_144452.jpg.html)

S/C outlet:
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160803_153348.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160803_153348.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 7, 2016, 09:27
After doing a lot more research on pulley sizes I am wondering if 120mm is going to be too Conservative? There is so much conflicting information and too few actual tested projects out there to be confident about the impact of pulley sizes on any given engine that has not been popular with supercharging, ie ours! I do wonder whether we ought to have a few sizes to experiment with eg 120mm (if now made), the standard 65.5mm and one somewhere between 70-80mm as may be available. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 7, 2016, 10:03
I'd already decided that 120 mm did not allow for lack of efficiencies caused by a ducting system that is, by necessity, cruder than the original Mini sysyem.

Done some figuring, and wanting not to over-do it, we're at making a 105 mm pulley.  Trying, also, to avoid the need for an intercooler.  We want to start with a very simple set-up which can evolve as we get to know it.  Remember, I'm not that interested in performance at high revs....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 7, 2016, 10:33
Agreed, as you say the inlet tract will inevitably be suboptimal compared to the Mini oem setup. Even 105mm might end up being too big but let's give it a go and see where we finish up. Is it fairly easy to swap the standard pulley back on if needed for testing purposes? Of course, whilst top end performance is not a concern, if it can't potentially deliver at the top end it won't produce bottom end either.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 7, 2016, 11:01
What standard pulley?  It's been cut off.  When you're doing these kinds of projects you can't keep going backwards and forwards.  Something gets built, then tested, then developed.  The original pulley would still give more boost than I want...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 7, 2016, 21:33
Gotta keep moving forward  :-) :-) :-)  
Will the exhaust come over the supercharger, or behind it?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 8, 2016, 07:49
The exhaust goes over the top.  Going to need a heat shield and wrapping.  We're extending a Toyosport by cutting it at the head flange and welding in more S/S tubing.  How we work the rest of the exhaust remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 9, 2016, 08:02
Quote from: "Carolyn"What standard pulley?  It's been cut off.  When you're doing these kinds of projects you can't keep going backwards and forwards.  Something gets built, then tested, then developed.  The original pulley would still give more boost than I want...

See the base of this page, the chart is mini focused, so not the sizes your considering
See how dramatically the charger rpm drops, which means cooler running
I'm sure kavs can figure out numbers or you can plot from these,
The compressor efficiency maps are on the net somewhere I will dig for them if you don't have them to hand


 m http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/mini-tuni ... ger-tuning (http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/mini-tuning-products/mini-cooper-s-supercharger-tuning) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 9, 2016, 09:32
It would be useful if we could see how the boost changes in line with the pulley sizes, the maps would help.
It seems that the design of the inlet tract has a massive impact on the boost produced so with no intercooler and a very different outlet pipe compared to the Mini we really are in uncharted territory so actual testing is the only way to find out what this setup would produce.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 9, 2016, 19:57
 m http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... 128483.gif (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128483.gif) m

Looking at the map we should be aiming at around 8k or more ?

I was spinning it off the map for my car,  20% and 7450 rpm but r53 minis come with forged rods and intercoolers foc from the factory, I had upgraded the intercooler and also water meth injection, and was  happy to trade potential max hp for off the line low down grunt and torques,
so it might be worth spinning it a little faster than think you need, if your happy the engine can handle the boost, for a better overall 2 -5k rpm pre lift package even if the headline numbers aren't quite so good
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 9, 2016, 20:01
I think the R53 is a Gen 3 supercharger, I wonder how different that would be?
Also, isn't that showing max efficiency almost down to 4,500?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 9, 2016, 20:12
Just doing some calcs based on that map.

With a 105mm pulley and an anticipated pressure ratio of 1.2-1.3 we would be running the supercharger pretty much right through it's maximum efficiency range on the 1zz. ie 1,500 to 8,500 supercharger rpm at 1.3 PR.

Assuming 105mm gives a 1.2-1.3 PR, which it might not quite. But it is a sensible starting point. If we can get to the point where we have a pulley to deliver that boost level it looks promising.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on August 9, 2016, 20:31
1.2 bar?????
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 9, 2016, 23:30
Yes and no!

1.2 bar absolute. ie 3psi boost as more usually described.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on August 10, 2016, 07:39
Gotcha was going to say I doubt the charger would even get to 1.2 bar boost.

I'll get back in my seat with the popcorn and carry on watching.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on August 10, 2016, 09:49
All comments /thoughts welcome, this is a voyage into the unknown so the more input the better in my view.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 16, 2016, 09:52
Quick update.  David is making two pulleys.  One 105 mm and one 115 mm.  We've decided to strip down the supercharger and give it a good clean and service.  While it's apart, David is going to put a key-way into the shaft.  He's putting them in the pulleys too.  We decided that interference fit would be a pain if we want to play with pulley sizes, so a key-way it is.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on August 16, 2016, 13:06
Might be handy for a charger rebuild

 m http://www.gtt.uk.com/product/mini-gen- ... e-coupler/ (http://www.gtt.uk.com/product/mini-gen-1-gtt-up-rated-supercharger-drive-coupler/) m

I've found American eBay is also good source of more Eaton bits,
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 16, 2016, 13:20
That's handy.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on September 5, 2016, 23:29
Might be a bit of inspiration

M45 charger

1.6 ltr engine
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on September 19, 2016, 14:01
How's this looking? Or has work stopped temporarily in favour of life?  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 19, 2016, 15:32
David's making a selection of pulleys...  It's plodding along.  I've got an engine swap to do to free up another engine for the project. The one we've been using is going back in my car, and I'm not doing that until the weather gets a bit worse, and I can bear to take my car off the road...
When something important happens, you'll hear about it!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 22, 2016, 08:46
Not really 'important', just a little progress to report....

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160920_123738.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160920_123738.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on September 22, 2016, 09:06
Hooray! Progress!!  :-) :-) :-)

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on September 22, 2016, 09:48
I think that classes as important on this build  s:) :) s:)  

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 24, 2016, 11:12
Well, the physical mounting and line-up is now done.  Note the extra idler to clear the tensioner.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160924_110326_1.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160924_110326_1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on September 24, 2016, 12:43
Looking good!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Mikeymead on September 24, 2016, 12:58
Quote from: "shnazzle"Looking good!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

+1, very neat.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 25, 2016, 16:35
Well , took the back off the blue car this morning and started a 'trial fit'.  So much for all the pre-measuring.  It fits with no chopping to the sub-frame!!!  The exhaust is going to be a bit trick, and one of the diagonal sheet-metal struts has to go.... but it's looking a much simpler job than I thought.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160925_161658.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160925_161658.jpg.html)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160925_161920.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160925_161920.jpg.html)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160925_161632.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160925_161632.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MR2j on September 25, 2016, 18:38
That looks awesome! Really impressive
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on September 25, 2016, 22:36
AAARGH!! I can't wait for this thing to work!!!
Rebuilt 1zz plus this will be totally on the cards for a lot of people I think!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on September 26, 2016, 15:08
As the metalwork side of things has gone so well, so far
are you in a position to fire it up soon, have injectors and management been lined up,
I have back-tracked and cannot see a conclusion for the next step ?
 I have some stock mini injectors/fuel rail if it helps (good for 230 bhp)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on September 26, 2016, 15:24
Is there an up to date check list of what components are still needed for this project?
If there is one thing I can do is trawl eBay- but I need specific instructions!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 26, 2016, 15:45
Quote from: "Blue al"As the metalwork side of things has gone so well, so far
are you in a position to fire it up soon, have injectors and management been lined up,
I have back-tracked and cannot see a conclusion for the next step ?
 I have some stock mini injectors/fuel rail if it helps (good for 230 bhp)

The long answer is.... nope.

The plan is to fire it up as stock as possible (with a boost gauge) and use a reader to have a look at what it's actually doing.  I'm thinking 2ZZ injectors...  management has most certainly not been lined up.  With a around 5lbs of boost (that's the target) we should be pretty good with the compression ratio. (done a bit of research on that one and the consensus seems to be we shouldn't have to play with timing to avoid detonation).  A small intercooler looks like the way to go..

The biggest obstacle to firing up is building the exhaust.  That is pretty much a custom job from one end to the other.  

Could use an aftermarket cat and a small silencer...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on September 26, 2016, 16:42
With studs, and drill,  could you fit a stock manifold upside down
Some straps and bungee sees the rest of the system hanging from the roof

All in the interests of "bench testing",  (don't drive anywhere   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  )

Seems a shame to throw the cost of a full custom system at it, so early in the development process
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 26, 2016, 16:55
Not much cost - we're fabricating most of it.  Took the heat-shields off a standard cat (big ugly lumpy thing) and we'll chop it about to get it to fit.  Then some kind of silencer (possibly motorbike...we've got a few of those). We've already chopped a Toyosport (used one) and we're extending it, with straight stainless tube)over the top of the supercharger to deliver the other side of the anti-roll bar.  Got to have somewhere for the Lambdas.  If it's ever going to be reproduce-able we've got to come up with a workable exhaust.  Plus we're trying to use the original airbox and MAF (it's hard to beat).  Flexible ducting on the way for outlet.... going to try to leave the throttle-body where it is and use a mini bypass valve.
It's one of those things where you've got to assume it's going to work (at some point).
Dammit -I'm already donating a perfectly good working car to the project.

Edit; can't flip the manifold.  Stud pattern.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2016, 12:15
Well, it will do for testing and development...  I'll have to have word with Hamish, when he gets finished moving shop, and see if we can't come up with something a little more elegant.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161007_120944.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161007_120944.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on October 7, 2016, 13:07
Quote from: "Carolyn"(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161007_120944.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161007_120944.jpg.html)

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  love it!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on October 7, 2016, 13:59
Awesome  :-) :-) :-)

In terms of a more "elegant" solution - I'm assuming cost wise it's cheaper to create some kind of manifold that would still meet up with the location of the standard downpipe/ cat? (if that's even possible??)

As if it doesn't then I'm guessing you're into custom cat fabrication as well then...

EDIT: Scratch that - just saw the higher up photo with the clearance!... guess it's custom manifold + Cat section & backbox?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2016, 14:40
Quote from: "jvanzyl"Awesome  :-) :-) :-)

In terms of a more "elegant" solution - I'm assuming cost wise it's cheaper to create some kind of manifold that would still meet up with the location of the standard downpipe/ cat? (if that's even possible??)

As if it doesn't then I'm guessing you're into custom cat fabrication as well then...

EDIT: Scratch that - just saw the higher up photo with the clearance!... guess it's custom manifold + Cat section & backbox?

That'll be the one.  Motorbike silencer, methinks.  Custom all the way, though we might do a lash-up to get her running.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on October 7, 2016, 14:50
In terms of just getting running - couldn't you just pop the standard cat and backbox on? (no idea how you'd support it)

Also - in terms of engine management. Where are you at? I've just taken delivery of Lee's eManage Blue, I won't be fitting it for a month or two due to other commitments. So if that would help, I can loan it to you?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on October 7, 2016, 14:53
Quote from: "Carolyn"(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161007_120944.jpg)

From experience the 1zz is quite sensitive to header lengths and diameters when tuning and mapping.
I appreciate this may be a stopgap but considering all the other effort you're putting into this project I reckon you need to get something much better fabricated.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2016, 15:06
Agreed.
Edit: Hence the mention of Hamish and a 'more elegant' solution.  We just want to get it to run and get some readings...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2016, 15:08
Quote from: "jvanzyl"In terms of just getting running - couldn't you just pop the standard cat and backbox on? (no idea how you'd support it)

Also - in terms of engine management. Where are you at? I've just taken delivery of Lee's eManage Blue, I won't be fitting it for a month or two due to other commitments. So if that would help, I can loan it to you?

That's very generous of you.  I think we're going to need something for some while, so we might as well get one of our own.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 19, 2016, 14:26
Well, the main part of the physical build is done.  I've been going over the thread and re-listening to the various inputs and we've decided to go for an ECU (e-manage type).
So, does anyone have a suitable ecu and harness that they are willing to sell?  Been trying to keep the spend down, but this looks like it does need to be done.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on October 19, 2016, 15:10
Drop me a PM with your address I have an e-manage blue here with harness etc, along with the USB cable, software etc

Wont be needing it till the spring now so You are welcome to borrow it
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Philip0694 on November 2, 2016, 22:28
How's the build going?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 3, 2016, 08:16
Making progress, but it's being fitted in around tons of other stuff.  Getting the final components for the rest of the exhaust. (Can't use the standard cat or muffler) and then it's on to management.  Induction plumbing all done.
Got an emanage blue and harness, yet to attach it to the car.
Getting there....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on November 4, 2016, 11:45
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Drop me a PM with your address I have an e-manage blue here with harness etc, along with the USB cable, software etc

Wont be needing it till the spring now so You are welcome to borrow it

How nice of you!

3 MR2ROC points awarded to this man.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jrichards20 on November 4, 2016, 11:46
Quote from: "jvanzyl"In terms of just getting running - couldn't you just pop the standard cat and backbox on? (no idea how you'd support it)

Also - in terms of engine management. Where are you at? I've just taken delivery of Lee's eManage Blue, I won't be fitting it for a month or two due to other commitments. So if that would help, I can loan it to you?


And again, 3 points to you too   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

People are so friendly on here.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 4, 2016, 11:58
I'm assuming the standard cat and exhaust won't fit due to how the manifold needs to sit now.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 4, 2016, 12:17
Carolyn has my e-manage blue as I have picked up an Ultimate for stupid money

I actually regret selling the PFC, but at the time I was going to go for a rotary conversion and the PFC wasn't going to be suitable
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 4, 2016, 12:32
Quote from: "shnazzle"I'm assuming the standard cat and exhaust won't fit due to how the manifold needs to sit now.

You assume correctly.  Cat not a problem, but I now need a pretty compact silencer.  Preferably not too noisy.  All suggestions welcome.

Edit:  By 'not a problem' I mean I can get a compact 200 cell cat with Lambda port for reasonable money....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 4, 2016, 12:50
this might be of use:-
 m http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorspor ... r-silencer (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/universal-exhaust-silencers/flowmaster-40-series-muffler-silencer) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 4, 2016, 13:21
looks useful.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: gamps on November 4, 2016, 19:09
Such a good build cant wait to see the end result!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 5, 2016, 09:12
Surely this build is very similar? I'm looking mostly at the manifold and exhaust design.

 l viewtopic.php?t=60709 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=60709) l
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 5, 2016, 09:37
Very similar.  That manifold would be cool....  Finding one??  

Looks like they've gone for a lot more boost and power than I'm looking for.  Very very thorough job.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: loadswine on November 5, 2016, 09:55
Is that not a Celica manifold? That is on a 2zz engine though. Is the Celica 1zz manifold different to the one on the roadster?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 5, 2016, 10:05
Looking on google... that's a 2zz turbo manifold.  not expensive.  might take a closer look if I'm not happy with what I've built...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: loadswine on November 5, 2016, 10:13
Looking at parts listings, the 1zz Celica manifold sweeps back, but the first parts of the primaries may not give the required clearance. Definitely a different profile to the one on the Roadster though. Might be worth a look.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 5, 2016, 10:31
Had another look at the 2zz.

The Eaton M45 (the Mini one) has the output on top.  No room for the manifold... bugger.  I'm quietly confident that the one we've fabricated will be good.  It's straight tube of the correct ID to a Toyosport assembly.  Average pipe length is actually now closer to even than before.  O2 sensors are in the right place...  
Anyway, it's built and in the car.  So we'll know soon enough.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Joesson on November 5, 2016, 11:09
An example of:

Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Theodore Roosevelt
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on November 5, 2016, 23:06
Quote from: "Joesson"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Theodore Roosevelt

Have saved that.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: mrzwei on November 5, 2016, 23:58
Or, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood in a Marine movie I can't remember the name of, 'IMPROVISE'   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 6, 2016, 00:33
Quote from: "mrzwei"Or, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood in a Marine movie I can't remember the name of, 'IMPROVISE'   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Heartbreak Ridge
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Joesson on November 6, 2016, 12:15
Quote from: "mrzwei"Or, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood in a Marine movie I can't remember the name of, 'IMPROVISE'   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Even better than a " one liner" , a " one worder!".

A bit like who needs a 5 when a 2 will do better!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 6, 2016, 15:12
Best to have a 5 and a 2 I reckon.  s;-) ;-) s;-)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 8, 2016, 11:56
Seriously though..

Does anyone have the pin map and key for the 1ZZ ecu?  Would be a huge time saver.

I've tried spyderweb and the links don't work.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: monsi on November 8, 2016, 18:22
Here's a link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3SZ75Txp8cGUzhzWnBoYUVrMlU) to the pinout I've used to wire in my standalone ECU.  If you need any help let me know.

Hope it helps   s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 8, 2016, 18:46
Indeed it does help.  Help is coming in from several members.  Great club!!

Thank you.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 8, 2016, 18:48
That's a great link. Answered to remaining pin questions
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 8, 2016, 19:14
The assistance from members is just brilliant.  This ecu bit is a very steep learning curve for me.  Just not done it before.  Spent the last decade on rocket engines and it just passed me by!
Keep up the good work peeps and we'll have working bit of kit.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 8, 2016, 19:44
Quote from: "Carolyn"The assistance from members is just brilliant.  This ecu bit is a very steep learning curve for me.  Just not done it before.  Spent the last decade on rocket engines and it just passed me by!
Keep up the good work peeps and we'll have working bit of kit.

OOOH rocket engines.... do you know much about Wren Turbines?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 8, 2016, 19:50
Not a bad little engine.  Unfortunately Wren went bust in a big way.  Not used one myself.  Big difference between a gas turbine and a rocket engine.
 w www.kinghtsarrow.com (http://www.kinghtsarrow.com) w .
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 8, 2016, 19:55
Quote from: "Carolyn"Not a bad little engine.  Unfortunately Wren went bust in a big way.  Not used one myself.  Big difference between a gas turbine and a rocket engine.
 m http://www.kinghtsarrow.com (http://www.kinghtsarrow.com) m .
OK... I have a wren turbine in the shed (Don't ask!)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 9, 2016, 19:48
Many thanks to all who have contributed pin info.  I can now wire the emanage.

However, before I start the engine up, I need to be sure that the basic settings are right for the 1ZZ.  I'm told that the unit I have is (probably) already set up but I do need to double check.

does anyone have the set-up instructions for the 1zz?  (it's an emange blue...)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 9, 2016, 20:01
Sorry C just got to reply.
If you got it on here it should be set up for 1zz.
If not, our friends across the pond (before they lost their minds and voted for a lunatic to be their leader) posted this and its still one of the best sources of emanage info

 m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... h-settings (http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?47497-Greddy-E-manage-Blue-jumpe-and-switch-settings) m !
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 9, 2016, 21:02
I got it from our Finish friend.  He never used it.  He told me that he was told it was set up.  I've joined spyderchat and you're right, it is a great resource. doesn't quite get me to the switch, jumper settings or I'm being thick...
I'm tied now. I'll try again tomorrow.  These steep learning curves are hard at my age!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 9, 2016, 21:43
Rotary switches on left once you open it up:
4,2,2.

JP1+3: jump 1 and 2
JP4-6: no jumper
JP7: jump 1 and 2

If you did wire in the ignition harness wiring, then JP2 needs to jump 2 and 3.

All the other little dials should just be zero'd. So the plusses on them should be straight up/down left/right.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 9, 2016, 23:53
For clarity the EMB Carolyn has is the one that came to me with the Turbo Kit I bought on eBay.  
The seller told me that this had been used with the kit previously but as he never fitted it (and obviously neither did I) I couldn't be certain of the settings
The EMB has all three Harnesses... Main, Ignition & injector
From memory the dials are all set to Zero, but I wouldn't swear to it
Sorry I'm not being much help here   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2016, 07:48
Thank you, both.  I will be using the ignition harness so that's all a big help.

I am now locked and loaded.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 10, 2016, 07:50
Might as well use the injector harness as well for that extra bit of control. It'll allow for duty cycle changes
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2016, 08:05
indeed, I'll be throwing the lot at it, including boost sensor, as this is an unknown quantity when it comes to tuning.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2016, 09:37
I have looked at the settings and jumpers.  It is definitely set up for the 1ZZ and for the ignition control.  All good.  That also means that the map it has will be close enough for firing up and testing.
now to start labeling wires....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 13, 2016, 17:54
I now have an XP computer with serial port, thanks to The Other Stu (who came today to sort our his rear brakes).  Got the software on it.  The emanage came with a USB cable that is (apparently) a serial port convertor type.  The emanage 'active light comes on but no communication.  Think I need a different cable connection.  Schnazzle did point one out that works, but I can't find the info for the life of me.
Please point me to one that works.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 13, 2016, 21:20
What connectors does it need? Male 9 pin D connector at both ends?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 13, 2016, 21:30
Gifftech make one that definitely
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on November 13, 2016, 21:42
Quote from: "jonbill"What connectors does it need? Male 9 pin D connector at both ends?
OK, so there are 2 cables.
One was almost a straight USB to USB cable (yes! Same both ends)
The other is a male Serial to USB. Now that's odd. Because the E-Manage has a USB port.

Carolyn, I know it might sound stupid, but the 2 ends on the USB, one was slightly longer. Have you tried swapping them round? You had the longer one attached to the laptop.

Btw, thank you for all your help today  s:) :) s:)  And it didn't take up the whole day too!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 07:44
thank you all for the input,
Jon:  the cable needed is USB to female serial port with a convertor built in.
Patrick:  Thanks I'll look up Gifftec
Stu:  Tried that cable both ways round.  The active light lights up for about a minute and goes out.  The computer isn't seeing the device.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 14, 2016, 09:15
HI Carolyn,
I can bring my emanage setup with me on sunday if you wanted to try the cables that come with mine?

Cheers,

John
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on November 14, 2016, 09:18
Quote from: "Carolyn"thank you all for the input,
Jon:  the cable needed is USB to female serial port with a convertor built in.
Patrick:  Thanks I'll look up Gifftec
Stu:  Tried that cable both ways round.  The active light lights up for about a minute and goes out.  The computer isn't seeing the device.
That's bizarre. It's not what it was doing yesterday - it was trying to install the driver.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2016, 09:53
Sounds like one part a standard usb to serial converter. If so that must be plugged in without anything connected on the serial end so it can register on the pc as a serial port. Once that done connect the rest and it should work. Otherwise the pc trys looking for drivers to connect to the emange and all will go wrong.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 11:25
Quote from: "jvanzyl"HI Carolyn,
I can bring my emanage setup with me on sunday if you wanted to try the cables that come with mine?

Cheers,

John

thank you.  Best plan yet

Richard:  Tried your suggestion.  No go.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 14, 2016, 13:17
Cool no worries... will bring everything... would be good to see how it's all supposed to plug in as it's one the next things I have on my todo list!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 14:47
Good job Jonbil is coming, or it will be the blind leading the blind... Jon is a bit of a wiz on this computing stuff, so is Stu.

We should probably throw it all at them and stand well back.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 14, 2016, 15:55
Quote from: "Carolyn"Good job Jonbil is coming, or it will be the blind leading the blind... Jon is a bit of a wiz on this computing stuff, so is Stu.

We should probably throw it all at them and stand well back.
I think we've been stitched up!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 14, 2016, 16:04
Quote from: "Carolyn"Jon:  the cable needed is USB to female serial port with a convertor built
Like this one?  m https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222267094188 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222267094188) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 14, 2016, 17:32
A couple of things maybe worth looking at.
With the cable plugged in,
In device manager, check the device has no error or warning icons.
This pic has a usb to serial device correctly installed and another device (ess game port) that isn't working.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161114/279fce5ac9f51023fd60f38ae7be7342.jpg)

because the ESS game port has a driver configured, I can unplug it and plug it in again as many times as I like, but it won't reinstall the driver or make it work.
You can sometimes get into this state if you haven't got the proper driver for the thing you installed.
The answer is to right-click-> uninstall it and then start again with the right driver.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 17:47
Quote from: "jonbill"
Quote from: "Carolyn"Jon:  the cable needed is USB to female serial port with a convertor built
Like this one?  m https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222267094188 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222267094188) m

I have one of those in transit.  I will try it and apply your science if it doesn't play nice.
Title: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 14, 2016, 18:05
The next thing to check is which com port the USB device is configured as. You can see in the earlier pic that mine is configured as "COM1".
If your PC has a real serial port enabled, it's most likely that it is COM1, and the USB port is COM2 or maybe even COM3.
 Some PC applications are written to assume the device they are working with is COM1. If the emanage software is such a one, you'll need to make your USB com port COM1. you should be able to do this with the advanced properties in device manager. (right-click->properties->advanced).
Also, it's possible that the emanage or the USB serial converter  needs a specific bit rate in the com port properties.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161114/53d476d720cd5e799f66fcb32670d219.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 14, 2016, 18:32
I've been reading the internet:  m http://www.migee.com/wp-content/uploads ... manual.pdf (http://www.migee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/greddy_emanage_software_manual.pdf) m
It seems that there are options (on the options menu!) in the emanage software to configure the port settings, so I feel confident that we can make this work.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 14, 2016, 19:16
Quote from: "jonbill"I've been reading the internet:  m http://www.migee.com/wp-content/uploads ... manual.pdf (http://www.migee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/greddy_emanage_software_manual.pdf) m
It seems that there are options (on the options menu!) in the emanage software to configure the port settings, so I feel confident that we can make this work.

Failing that there is always the JC method:-
(http://i.imgur.com/hhTINHX.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/g50MbV7.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/2IfuCO3.gif)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 19:19
Well, after ten minutes, I found the device manager!!!!!!!!!
Jon:  Tell you what:  You sort this for me and you're on for workshop access and machine shop services as needed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 14, 2016, 19:21
I've been at that approach for months now and I have had no luck. Installed drivers, uninstalled drivers, turn cable around, different laptops, different versions of Windows, different versions of emanage software...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 14, 2016, 19:30
Well, perhaps, with a team effort we can get this one pinned down .  That will be a very useful resource for the club in future.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 14, 2016, 19:45
Has anyone looked at this one?
 m http://redleader36.com/emanage/DIY%20Su ... 20V1.1.pdf (http://redleader36.com/emanage/DIY%20Support%20Tool%20cable%20V1.1.pdf) m
The cable is about 7 quid on evilbay
 m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nokia-CA-42-D ... 2238898635 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nokia-CA-42-DKU-5-USB-Data-Cable-Phone-7210-7250-etc-clearance/232133533814?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D8b63046bdae24846af770ed5f1cd3b41%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D282238898635) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 15, 2016, 09:57
I have one cable that will make the emanage go 'active'.  There's another on the way which should also accomplish that,at least.  I did find the com port selection in the emanage software.  AND I found the one that works for the USB/USB adaptor lead.
Now it seems to be an issue with the correct driver, other drivers causing problems and general software wizardry.  It also seems that the driver has to be compatible with a particular version of the emanage software (of which I have plethora).
At this juncture my expertise fails.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on November 15, 2016, 11:42
I should have taken that from you and brought it back on Sunday   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

I'm a radio geek and I have to play with virtual and serial ports and icky drivers all the time. Quite often, the problem is caused with fake chipsets and so on.
I'm a whiz with them (although they can take hours to diagnose).
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 15, 2016, 13:12
Good news
I have managed to locate a genuine cable from an acquaintance in Finland.
He is sending it over to me this week.  I'll send it on to Carolyn on the proviso that it is returned to me by 20th December. As I promised to bring it back when I go to Finland at Christmas
At least with a genuine cable we can rule out one variable
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 13:14
Excellent. I'd be very interested in if that solves the problem.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 13:15
Also... SE7EN motorsport do a 1zz supercharger kit now. A whopping 4700. But it is a rotrex. Oil and intercooler, apexi pfc+commander, mapping, injectors, intake and plumbing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 15, 2016, 13:28
Just a thought here...Se7en also appear to offer a " 4 cylinder rebuild service"  m http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/store ... ur%29.html (http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/store/p70/4_Cylinder_Engine_Rebuild_%28labour%29.html) m  for £875... I have no idea what that entails, but for those of us with older engines it might be worth noting prior to replicating Carolyns efforts with the supercharger kit!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 13:33
Well that goes without saying. You can't put forced induction on a knackered block.
Might as well buy a non-runner and sit in it on the drive making brum brum noises
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 15, 2016, 14:03
That price is for 'labour'.  If I were doing that service I'd have to add pistons rings gaskets, timing gear, bearings and possibly valves and springs (all oem).  Why all that?  I wouldn't put a warranty on anything less.
Anyway.  
Gary, please don't request that cable until we have got together this weekend and had a go at sorting things, unless you're happy with the extra effort. We would need the access to the correct driver and computer set-up.  I don't think it's so much a cable issue as a driver and computer set-up issue.
The one you sent with the kit is trying to work.  It's more me not getting the computer to play nice.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: stewart@boro on November 15, 2016, 14:21
Quote from: "shnazzle"Also... SE7EN motorsport do a 1zz supercharger kit now. A whopping 4700. But it is a rotrex. Oil and intercooler, apexi pfc+commander, mapping, injectors, intake and plumbing.

That was meant to be my little secret  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 14:24
Haha someone else outed it already. Both here and on FB  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 15, 2016, 14:30
oooooohhhh are you getting a kit installed??? When??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 15, 2016, 14:49
Quote from: "Carolyn"That price is for 'labour'.  If I were doing that service I'd have to add pistons rings gaskets, timing gear, bearings and possibly valves and springs (all oem).  Why all that?  I wouldn't put a warranty on anything less.
Anyway.  
Gary, please don't request that cable until we have got together this weekend and had a go at sorting things, unless you're happy with the extra effort. We would need the access to the correct driver and computer set-up.  I don't think it's so much a cable issue as a driver and computer set-up issue.
The one you sent with the kit is trying to work.  It's more me not getting the computer to play nice.

Ok I'll drop him a message, hopefully he hasn't posted it yet!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 15, 2016, 14:55
See if he's got the driver and set-up info??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 15, 2016, 14:57
Are you after the "guides"? I have all of the ones I could find here:

 m https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2QMt ... Ho5emNqdGs (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2QMtjsKQzIocXFxbHo5emNqdGs) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 15, 2016, 15:32
Thanks for that.  didn't have the support tool one.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: stewart@boro on November 15, 2016, 19:01
Quote from: "jvanzyl"oooooohhhh are you getting a kit installed??? When??

Having a big think about it
waiting to see what Brexit has done to my pension investments first.  s:( :( s:(
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 15, 2016, 20:27
Ok had a chat with Janne and this was his method of setting up.

His first comment was that if you have been messing with drivers then to reinstall the Operating system so as to start with a clean system it seems the e-manage & software is very fussy when it comes to the correct drivers.
He also suggested "cloning" the hard drive once you have the basic XP build with all the updates etc as this makes for a faster recovery if things go wrong.
Download all the E-Manage Blue installer packages from  m http://revspec.com/Ultimate.htm (http://revspec.com/Ultimate.htm) m
Starting with V1.10 install ALL the packages (1.10, 1.11, 1.20 & the 1.25 Update) restarting the machine after every installation has completed.

He has also advised to stay away from USB - Serial Adaptors and use a laptop with a true serial port.  Even with the correct lead he had many connectivity & dropout issues when using a USB convertor.

If anyone is interested Janne runs a 88 toyota starlet with 4wd & huge turbo  s:D :D s:D

Hope this helps guys!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 15, 2016, 20:46
That is a MASSIVE help.  Jon - Stu are you getting all this??
I reckon I've already messed the puter up playing with it.....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 21:07
Some of that isn't perse true. Sorry.
A driver is linked to a device. Windows won't just use another device driver you once had installed for the fun of it. If you look in the Device Manager you'll see it's linked to a specific driver library.

What does seem to be the case (as others have told me as well) is that it comes down to the serial to usb converters.
So yes, straight serial is the way forward. But, who they hell has a serial port???

What puzzles me is why quite a few people have had this working absolutely fine with the diy cable and even windows 7 laptops.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 15, 2016, 21:11
I'm going to grab a cable, cross over the read and write wires and get a terminal program. See if I can get it to transfer data accurately as a serial device.
If I can get that to work, then we know it's not the cable. Although, serial connections are very reliant on baudrate and have very primitive data correction/verification.

Maybe we need to set a parity bit on the port?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on November 15, 2016, 21:22
Quote from: "Carolyn"That is a MASSIVE help.  Jon - Stu are you getting all this??
I reckon I've already messed the puter up playing with it.....
Yes, but no but  s;) ;) s;)

I doubt you've done anything that can't be fixed quite quickly.
I'll bring the software on a stick.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 15, 2016, 22:02
Quote from: "shnazzle"Some of that isn't perse true. Sorry.
A driver is linked to a device. Windows won't just use another device driver you once had installed for the fun of it.

It is however possible install outdated or "bodged" drivers which can still cause issues. This is especially true with the drivers that come with some of the cheaper USB convertors found in all sorts of devices like ODB cables etc. While they may install correctly they may not be 100% compatible with the chipset version of the device, causing data issues & timeouts

I think what he was trying to say is that starting with a "clean" install removes a lot of the variables
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on November 15, 2016, 22:21
Looking forward to seeing you all Sunday and watching you go to work.

Still only November, but, mince pies anyone?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 16, 2016, 08:52
I'm sure we can fix it.  Did you say your laptop does have a std serial port Carolyn? Using that would make it a little simpler (with a serial cable, obvs[SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH])
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 09:47
Yes.  It's an older high quality machine with freshly installed XP and a proper serial port (all provided by Other Stu).

Got the serial cable you pointed out on the way.  Should be here today.

I'll bring the lot with me on Sunday......
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 16, 2016, 09:57
Just a thought here - do we have a power supply available to us on the day? It's just that a lot these lovely older machines have literally no battery life and probably need to stay plugged in in order to work.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 11:07
I'll pop up there and check.  Only fair to let them know we're descending on them.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on November 16, 2016, 11:23
Quote from: "jvanzyl"Just a thought here - do we have a power supply available to us on the day? It's just that a lot these lovely older machines have literally no battery life and probably need to stay plugged in in order to work.
I was going to bring a 300w inverter. Small as my suitcase generator is, I don't think it would fit in the two along with 2 adults.
Should be enough, I think.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 13:17
Plug socket available.  I refer you all to the events section for up to date info re Sywell.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 16, 2016, 14:20
In business  s:) :) s:)  
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161116/0ead4b97a1d930641bb0ead4a5990bb1.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 14:38
Well, that's hopeful.  It's no good telling me how you did it...  but Stu and Jon would actually comprehend.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 16, 2016, 14:49
It's actually very simple.
The green and white wires need to be crossed on the cable. Then I got the latest driver (Prolific for the PL-2303HXA chipset I have in my converter) and installed it.
Then plugged in the cable with the converter side in the laptop.
Go into device manager and see if it has loaded correctly. It didn't. I bumped into the connector and all of a sudden the yellow warning triangle disappeared.  AHA!! My stupid connector isn't 100%!
So I need to plug it in and bend it up a bit. Perfecto.

Then I installed the support tool v1.11. Then copied all files except eUp.exe and eUp.ini from the 1.49 zip and pasted them on top of the files that the 1.11 installer installed. (program filestrustgreddy).

Went into car. Plugged in the other side of the cable into emanage. Key in ignition and set to ACC.
Nothing...
Checked com-port...all good. Set key to ON.
BINGO!!

Just did a run out and logged some data. Good fun

Oh, and this is on Windows7
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 16:20
So there has to be power to the emange to communicate?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 16, 2016, 16:26
Oh yes definitely.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 16, 2016, 16:57
Quote from: "shnazzle"Oh yes definitely.

Have we just found the primary "issue" here   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 16, 2016, 17:01
Could well be.  I'll put 12v to it tomorrow and try it again....
Title: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 16, 2016, 21:22
Well yes  :-) :-) :-)  
I guess being usb connected might tempt you to think it can be powered by usb.
But perhaps there's a clue to a couple of things in that the emanage has a usb-a connector. Usb-a is for master/host devices which provide power rather than receive (like a pc). Also explains why Patrick needed a cross over cable - the pc also is a host/master from the serial protocol perspective.
All sorted then  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 08:21
we'll see.....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 17, 2016, 09:09
Hey - I found the below site which seems to be quite comprehensive in terms of the eManage blue and the exact pin layouts etc:
 m http://wilbo666.pbworks.com/w/page/4648 ... ort%20Tool (http://wilbo666.pbworks.com/w/page/46488386/GReddy%20e-Manage%20Support%20Tool) m

PLUS it has the 1.11 download files!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 09:18
I'm in.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 09:20
Excellent. Good week for emanage on mr2roc haha

Now to zero everything out, get the wideband connected and finish up the hardware  s:) :) s:)  
Then change fueling
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 09:38
It's mapped for boost with progressive ignition retard...  
Doubtless it's for a turbo, but it should suffice for firing up with some degree of engine safety...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 09:51
Quote from: "Carolyn"It's mapped for boost with progressive ignition retard...  
Doubtless it's for a turbo, but it should suffice for firing up with some degree of engine safety...

Is "should" where you want to be?  s:) :) s:)

I won't profess to know much about this area but, are there some fail-safe basic principles that can be applied to the map once adding the SC?

I'm assuming the most important thing is adding fuel in order to not run dangerously lean. Or has that base been covered?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 17, 2016, 10:09
Quote from: "Carolyn"I'm in.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


HOORAY!!!  s:-D :-D s:-D  Wel done Carolyn!

BTW I have the support tool running on a windows 10 tablet now... Maybe on the weekend I'll see if it's a viable way of interacting with the blue..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 10:32
Quote from: "jvanzyl"
Quote from: "Carolyn"I'm in.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


HOORAY!!!  s:-D :-D s:-D  Wel done Carolyn!

BTW I have the support tool running on a windows 10 tablet now... Maybe on the weekend I'll see if it's a viable way of interacting with the blue..
Depends on the chipset uses in the converter.
If its a Prolific then Win 10 is not supported on the pl-2303hxa chipset.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 10:57
Quote from: "shnazzle"
Quote from: "Carolyn"It's mapped for boost with progressive ignition retard...  
Doubtless it's for a turbo, but it should suffice for firing up with some degree of engine safety...

Is "should" where you want to be?  s:) :) s:)

I won't profess to know much about this area but, are there some fail-safe basic principles that can be applied to the map once adding the SC?

I'm assuming the most important thing is adding fuel in order to not run dangerously lean. Or has that base been covered?

Looking at the fueling map, that base is covered, though probably not ideal for a different boost curve.

I've still got quite a bit of work to do to get to actually running her up (other than idle).  Exhaust has to be finished and the wiring-in of the ecu is yet to be done.  Spent a while yesterday labeling wires.  Going to double check that today, then solder in all the connectors...

I've got a car electronics whizz nearby, so I shall have him peruse...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 11:02
Quote from: "Carolyn"It's mapped for boost with progressive ignition retard...  
Doubtless it's for a turbo, but it should suffice for firing up with some degree of engine safety...

Dont forget to back that one up for me  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 11:28
will do, just as soon as I figure out how to do that....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 11:56
Backed up.  I'll get a mem stick and send it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 12:58
Thanks  s:) :) s:)
For info the map Carolyn has is for the PE turbo kit. the emb is from the kit I picked up on eBay
I have not seen the map it so cannot comment on its suitability for purpose.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 13:02
There are a few more maps available somewhere on here. I downloaded them a while back. Mix of n/a and turbo maps
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 13:07
They're in the resources section
Would post a link but I'm on the iPhone and it's a faff
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 14:32
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Thanks  s:) :) s:)
For info the map Carolyn has is for the PE turbo kit. the emb is from the kit I picked up on eBay
I have not seen the map it so cannot comment on its suitability for purpose.

Do you happen to know if the map is for MAF before turbo?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 14:38
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Thanks  s:) :) s:)
For info the map Carolyn has is for the PE turbo kit. the emb is from the kit I picked up on eBay
I have not seen the map it so cannot comment on its suitability for purpose.

Do you happen to know if the map is for MAF before turbo?

That I can help you with!
MAF is before the turbo:-

Airfilter
MAF
Pipe
Turbo
Pipe
Throttlebody
Engine

Also the kit came with no form of charge cooling if that's any consequence?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 14:42
That's  my set-up ( not turbo, of course).  It will need tweaking but it will be a decent starting point.  2zz injectors?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 15:03
Quote from: "Carolyn"That's  my set-up ( not turbo, of course).  It will need tweaking but it will be a decent starting point.  2zz injectors?

With such low boost, based on fairly extensive research, charge cooling is not essential.  The sequence of components is exactly as I have it. I know my boost will come in earlier, but otherwise, it's got to be close.  
Still need to define injector size.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 15:17
Here's one thing that I mentioned when we first started.
I'm a little concerned that on the EMB you can't adjust injector lag time.

So, just be aware that if idling is rough as f00k when you get it going, it may be this. Only hope may be using the Anti-stall settings to fix idle.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 15:27
Bridge cross we shall, when at it we arrive.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 15:41
Quote from: "Carolyn"That's  my set-up ( not turbo, of course).  It will need tweaking but it will be a decent starting point.  2zz injectors?

Yes I think so, there was some injectors with the kit, Green ones from memory if thats any help?
I'll check tonight
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 15:46
2zz are yellow.  Green, usually, standard.  Cheers
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on November 17, 2016, 16:12
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"That I can help you with!
MAF is before the turbo:-

Airfilter
MAF
Pipe
Turbo
Pipe
Throttlebody
Engine

Also the kit came with no form of charge cooling if that's any consequence?

I reckon that's going to need a BOV fitting between the supercharger and the throttle body.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 16:15
Patrick!!  where have you been?  Yes, you're probably right.  Got a Mini one.  Fortunately I've even got a port for it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on November 17, 2016, 16:22
The Mini doesn't have a BOV as standard because it has the throttle body before the supercharger, the Mini does have a bypass valve, but that's a different thing. The BOV is required because the throttle body is being relocated after the supercharger in your setup.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 16:27
Quote from: "lamcote"
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"
Quote from: "Carolyn"

I reckon that's going to need a BOV fitting between the supercharger and the throttle body.


There's is one fitted tho the std PE kit did not ship with one
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on November 17, 2016, 16:29
It's not so important with a turbo, much more significant with a supercharger though.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 16:39
indeed.  Bidding on one as we speak.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2016, 17:37
PE ran standard injectors but increased fuel pressure. The 2zz injectors should even the difference out.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 17:58
That's the way I'm leaning.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 18:42
Quote from: "Carolyn"2zz are yellow.  Green, usually, standard.  Cheers

Apologies.... after confirming they are actually yellow and not green   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  (Yes I am colourblind lol)
Good thing I don't work in bomb disposal   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 18:57
2zz injectors it is then.  Damn this is adding up.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 19:07
It always does...   s:( :( s:(
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 19:38
Quote from: "Carolyn"2zz injectors it is then.  Damn this is adding up.

My £500 turbo kit has cost me almost 3 times that now and I haven't even started fitting it!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 20:46
I've just about finished spending... with injectors to come (but included in the total) I'm in for £900.  'bout what I anticipated.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 17, 2016, 20:53
Eek. That's already a fair bit.
But to be fair, if you've come this far with 900, that does give decent hope for the total cost of the build
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 17, 2016, 20:57
That's all the spending. Got all the exhaust parts.  Plenty of fabrication to do - but that's woman hours not cash.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on November 17, 2016, 21:04
Thats the scary part.
No labour costs.

I feel faint imagining what the labour costs would come out at, if it was being paid for on a normal client contractor basis.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on November 17, 2016, 21:06
If not already done so.

I'd like dibs on the first reasonably practical passenger ride.   s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on November 17, 2016, 21:24
Quote from: "Carolyn"I've just about finished spending... with injectors to come (but included in the total) I'm in for £900.  'about what I anticipated.

I could have done it cheaper had kept the stock exhaust and stuck with the E-Manage Blue and not gone for all the other "nice to have" upgrades like alloy rad, oil cooler, E-manage Ultimate, charge cooler etc
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 18, 2016, 12:59
Patrick (Headcase) has sorted the injectors for me.  Thanks all for responding.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on November 18, 2016, 17:15
Blimey things have moved on a lot in a couple of days since I last looked in....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 18, 2016, 17:19
The question is will it show up on Sunday??  s:-D :-D s:-D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 18, 2016, 17:34
Quote from: "jonbill"Blimey things have moved on a lot in a couple of days since I last looked in....

Projects are like that aren't they?  Getting close, but we're in no hurry.  Got some tasty exhaust components and we want it to look well.  So fabrication next week.  Oh and a bunch of soldering connectors for the emanage.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 27, 2016, 14:18
Update time.
Many thanks to Jon (Jonbil) who came by and assisted with labeling all the wires for the emanage.  So that's MAf, injectors, timing and boost all going to be managed.
Exhaust is halfway done.
Blow-off valve installed.
2zz injectors in.
Some heat shields (to keep the inlet cool), hangers and mounts to sort out.
Looking at fan for engine compartment...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 27, 2016, 14:38
Headcase has a ready-made fan. Thermostatic and all.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 27, 2016, 17:07
I'll check on that, though Boxter fans with thermo are on fleabay to £25
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 28, 2016, 16:28
Probably the biggest challenge has been to get the exhaust to fit with very limited space, and keeping ground clearance good.

Had to compromise with the junction beneath the plate, but this is what had to be done to get a decent cat in.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161128_161652.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161128_161652.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 28, 2016, 16:31
Ouch. Granted, the only way that collector is going to get any prettier is by casting. Or some very fancy cutting/welding.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 28, 2016, 16:56
But hey... if it works, then I think the aesthetics will be worth enduring!  :-) :-) :-)  

What's next on the list of to do's??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 28, 2016, 17:08
It's a bit more then aesthetics, I'm afraid - not ideal flow.  Not disastrous though.

Weld up the rest of the exhaust, sort out the hangers.

Make and install heat shields.  Mount fan.  Make mounts for the airbox.

Install the emanage.

tune it up.

Won't be quick, it's bloody cold in the workshop even with the wood-burner going.  Can only take cold a bit at a time.
.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 28, 2016, 20:33
I was talking flow   s:) :) s:)  Don't give a monkeys about aesthetics! Not to exhaust parts anyway... Other than the tips  s:) :) s:)  

But you're right, it'll do for now  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 5, 2016, 21:21
Okay...
Getting close.  Time to put the emange in the car.  Simple plug-in, thank God.
Now.  Where to put it and how best to mount it?
Harness leads about 4' long, so plenty of scope.  (Can also be coiled up).
I'm thinking passenger foot well....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 5, 2016, 21:29
I just have mine in the passenger rear bin. Easy access for the laptop cable and front dials
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 08:31
How have you secured it?  Have you done anything to protect from shocks?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 6, 2016, 08:45
Yes I put a bit of foam and then under the straps that are in the bin. Holds it in place nicely.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on December 6, 2016, 10:42
Pardon the utter naivety in this area.. but I'd love to see a pic or two of the actual installation process.. I'm dead paranoid on getting this wrong and at my current rate of progress it's only looking to get installed at Ding day 2017!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 12:03
I seem to recall that you have a plug and play harness, which makes it a doddle.  You just unplug the ECU and car connections behind the luggage bin, plug  in your new harness to the stuff coming from the engine, plug your Emanage into the harness and plug the harness back into the ECU and car.  The connectors can only go in one way.
I'm using a harness extension, so I've had to solder in connectors to the extension and and connect my Emanage harnesses to it.  A lot more work and very fiddly.
Here's what I've now got (big connector takes the stuff from the engine, bottom ones go to ECU and car):

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161206_115424.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161206_115424.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 6, 2016, 12:38
To get to that point....
In the passenger bin:
- Remove bin door (two screws)
- Remove plastic on the right side of the bin (one pull-tab at the top and pull out)
- Remove bin liner (two screws on the bottom). You'll have to open the driver's bin door to wriggle it out.
- push aside the access flap you see at the back
- Undo the security bolt on the big black bracket (Forgot the size. It's a hollow-tip torx. Size 6 maybe?)
- Move bracket aside and unplug cables from ECU
- Plug those cables into the harness. Only one way
- Plug the harness into the stock ECU
- Plug the other end into the emanage.
- Put everything back (I didn't bother with the security bolt. Just used another nromal bolt)
- Remove battery neg cable for 20 mins to reset ECU.
Sorted.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on December 6, 2016, 12:58
Thanks both! That does help! And once it's all plugged in I plug in the laptop, and then turn the key on the ignition so there is power but not actually turning the engine over and upload the right map?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 13:28
That's the idea.  With a bit if ingenuity, you can get power to the Emanage and do the uploading out of the car.. but not needed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on December 6, 2016, 13:32
So then it's just a question of praying that the map uploaded doesn't detonate the engine  :-) :-) :-) ... I THINK what I might do is just start with a clean stock map to make sure everything still works before I start "adding" to it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 13:35
Let's start another thread for you project?
There are others who can advise better than I.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 6, 2016, 14:51
haha. That's polite for "stop thread-jacking John!"

But this same thing does apply to this build. What's the plan Carolyn? Are you going to use a base map of some sort or are you just going to put the injector compensation in and then go from there with zero'd tables?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 15:20
I have a map that was designed for my layout (Maf, Throttle body position) for a Turbo with very similar boost.  I'm going to knock it back in the lower ranges (with it being a charger that will come in sooner).
I've got the right injectors so I might just richen it a tad all the way through.  The timing is pretty conservative on this map, but I will knock it back a bit in the lower ranges and make sure it runs knock-free.
Then it will be a dyno job.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 6, 2016, 17:12
Good luck, hope it all works out.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2016, 18:18
I'm confident that it will work.  I'm just going to play it safe until I can get on the dyno.

Having gone though the process, I don't think it's a project for most Roadster owners.  Turbo is much easier to put together and much better understood.

Also it ain't cheap, especially if you can't do your own fabrication and machine work.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 9, 2016, 18:10
Update:
Exhaust fully fabricated.  Hangers still to do.  Emanage in.  Fan in and wired. Got to make mounts for airbox (which is now upside down, don't laugh it all lines up lovely).
To do: drain tank and put fresh fuel in.  Add boost guage for direct reading. Heat shield for airbox.  Cooler spark plugs to install.
Getting close.
Pics in a few days.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 9, 2016, 18:30
I like the airbox idea.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 10, 2016, 10:13
We know the stock airbox and MAF are hard to improve upon, and the set-up works with turbos and 2zz.  I wanted to avoid the extra variable of a non-standard MAF mount.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on December 10, 2016, 10:33
I hope the first start is going to be videod
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 10, 2016, 10:46
Maybe the second... if the first one goes well.  Learned the hard way with rocket engine testing...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 11, 2016, 15:58
This is interesting (and expensive).  M45 Eaton on MX5.  Same throttle-body and maf position as ours.  No cooler.  My inlet is better, but their outlet is better than ours.  Uses a Mini bypass valve.  They can't spell.
 m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Salon-Motorsp ... Sw9IpX1nYV (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Salon-Motorsport-Mx5-Eaton-M45-supercharger-inlet-outlet-bracket-and-tentioner-/262716128048?hash=item3d2b19fb30:g:mGoAAOSw9IpX1nYV) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 11:20
It is me, or did 'someone' do a swift edit there?....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on December 12, 2016, 11:22
Looks like They split the kit if you can see value in some of it ?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 11:25
The outlet is nice, but too tall to fit under the exhaust on a roadster...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 13:02
Couple of pics

Inlet to supercharger:
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161212_123924.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161212_123924.jpg.html)

Top view, with extra support for manifold from bottom of block to the cross-piece
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20161212_123846.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20161212_123846.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 12, 2016, 13:17
Looking good. Is the plan to recirculate the air from the BOV outlet back in to the supercharger inlet pipe?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 13:29
Was just going to allow it to vent.  Unless you have a good reason for re-circulation?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 12, 2016, 13:40
I understand the ECU may well get confused if it isn't recirculated. I have read that the MAF will be measuring a load of air that never gets to the engine and the system won't understand why and will try to do something about it but won't get it right. I suppose it's the opposite of a vacuum leak?

People seem to recirculate into the inlet, before the supercharger but after the MAF.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 13:51
Hmm
Read up a lot on this.  There seem to be opposing 'expert' views.  We'll see how it does and ad a re-circ if it's a problem.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 12, 2016, 13:53
Might people's views be different if they are using a MAP rather than a MAF?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 12, 2016, 13:55
This is a common comment I see,

"Re-circulating Vs Vented Blow off Valve

Recirculating Blow Off Valve

A re-circulated BOV is one where the boost pressure is re-circulated back into the intake just before the turbo. This type of set-up is a must for those that are running a Mass Air Fuel ( MAF) sensor. The reason for this is that the MAF has already accounted for the air that is in the intake manifold, and if it was allowed to escape to the atmosphere, the car would run overly rich due to the fact that the ECU still believes that the air is in the intake tract."

enginebasics.com

Most others say the same as far as I can see?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 13:59
Yes... but I will be using a boost sensor.  WE'll see. Not the end of the world to add a bit of extra plumbing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on December 12, 2016, 14:11
I have no direct experience of any of this so I may be wildly wrong but I am assuming the boost sensor is used to richen the mixture to compensate for boost, however you still need to know how much air is going in, otherwise you wouldn't need the MAF.

Maybe someone who has actually done this could chip in? I agree that the addition of some extra plumbing is little problem but many different things could cause a rich mixture so it may be difficult to isolate a problem to this issue IF it exists. I am trying to minimise the potential need for debugging once you are up and running.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 12, 2016, 14:27
David and I have just chewed this over.  It seems that the re-circulate option is recommended 80 - 20 over simple blow-off.  So we'll put the plumbing in.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 13:27
She runs.
Well, she's idling OK and revving freely.  Don't know how she will be under load.  I removed the Emanage from the system, as it was just not behaving (probably a wrong connection).  So I started her up on the stock ECU (she's got 2zz injectors).  A bit on the loud side, but definitely legal. It was showing an eml (no code) with the Emanage in place.  No Eml with it out of the way.  Now to get the Emange to do what it needs to do...

(http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx288/laffin-gas/20170116_130213.jpg) (http://s764.photobucket.com/user/laffin-gas/media/20170116_130213.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 16, 2017, 13:48
And the crowd goes wild!!!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/40r0HqzxsH93q/giphy.gif)

my sincerest apologies if my happiness at the success of this project is in anyway horrific to others eyes... ;-p
Go Carolyn!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 14:19
Nothing like the whine of a supercharger.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 16, 2017, 14:37
Sweet
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: greybeardgt on January 16, 2017, 15:13
From greybeardgt Well done Carolyn! nominate you No 1 Superwoman!




           06 lagoon blue Little Magic MR2
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 17:40
Now I need to spend a few hours with my' puter, Emanage and someone who really knows their stuff on this.  Any volunteers??
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 16, 2017, 17:55
Quote from: "Carolyn"Now I need to spend a few hours with my' puter, Emanage and someone who really knows their stuff on this.  Any volunteers??

(https://media.giphy.com/media/e1Lv6Gvd8bFFC/giphy.gif)
  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 16, 2017, 18:28
Should we start with the error code? Then the knowledgeable can chip in as needed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 18:34
No error code.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 18:41
I'm not confident in my computer set-up and not really finding my way around the software (It may not even be installed and working properly).  I found one dodgy connection in the system, but I just really need a solid foundation on which to proceed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 16, 2017, 18:51
If it's throwing an immediate eml with no code, I'd be tempted to think it's the hardware setup of the emanage and then wiring.
All jumpers where they should be? Number of cylinders correct? MAF type correct (if using maf as an input)?

The MAP itself wouldn't cause an eml on start up. Not without a code.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 18:58
I checked the jumpers - all seems fine.  I'm using the standard maf and airbox (and it's doing fine without the Emanage).  Looking at the map, I'm not sure that it is using the maf (which it should).  
This needs someone to actually look at what's going on with my puter/software/ emanage.  I lack the basic comfort in working with it.
I don't feel it's going to be solved by 'remote'.  Time for hands and eyes on.
We could spend many messages trying to sort out that which an experienced eye will solve in a couple of minutes.  What I need is a bit of education.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on January 16, 2017, 20:06
Well done, great progress, hopefully someone with good knowledge of using eManage systems will volunteer to pop round?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 20:21
That's what I'm hoping for.  Or at least, an invitation to take my hardware somewhere and be shown how to use it properly.  The principles, I understand, the practice, I just need to be shown.  That's how I learn best.
She's running sweet under no load, so it's all down to getting it right on the road now.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MartinC on January 16, 2017, 20:37
Quote from: "Carolyn"That's what I'm hoping for.  Or at least, an invitation to take my hardware somewhere and be shown how to use it properly.  The principles, I understand, the practice, I just need to be shown.  That's how I learn best.
She's running sweet under no load, so it's all down to getting it right on the road now.
Have you tried contacting Greddy direct, to see if they can help?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 20:45
Thanks for the suggestion, Martin, but I'm in search of practical instruction.  I can read info on websites, but I'm dealing with language full of assumptions about the reader's knowledge and lots of acronyms and buzzwords.  Doesn't work for me.  I have manuals but it's amazing how little of the BASICS they bother to impart. I can't imagine Greddy doing other than referring me to their manual.
It's out there .. I'll have to troll through my motorsport contacts.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 16, 2017, 20:54
Would it help if I sent/brought you my setup with a laptop and everything that properly work etc?

I don't actually know how everything works but I can certainly help with loading software etc...?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 21:04
Hi John,
that would be a big help.  Also the other Jon (Jonbil) offered to take a look too.  Perhaps we can get all three of us together (Lunch on me!!) and give it a damn good thrashing?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 16, 2017, 21:16
Hey Carolyn,
We've got a newborn so weekends are kind of fully booked for a while but I can certainly drive up in an evening to bring stuff to you?
Alternatively I work in Harpenden so if you're within 30 mins drive I could make to yours and back during the week?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 16, 2017, 21:32
Quote from: "Carolyn"Hi John,
that would be a big help.  Also the other Jon (Jonbil) offered to take a look too.  Perhaps we can get all three of us together (Lunch on me!!) and give it a damn good thrashing?

Sorry red rag to a bull   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  :-
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Fawlty_6fa71f_585228.gif)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 16, 2017, 21:44
That is what I had in mind
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on January 17, 2017, 08:35
Quote from: "Carolyn"Hi John,
that would be a big help.  Also the other Jon (Jonbil) offered to take a look too.  Perhaps we can get all three of us together (Lunch on me!!) and give it a damn good thrashing?
I'm available at the weekend if I can help.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 17, 2017, 08:39
Quote from: "jonbill"
Quote from: "Carolyn"Hi John,
that would be a big help.  Also the other Jon (Jonbil) offered to take a look too.  Perhaps we can get all three of us together (Lunch on me!!) and give it a damn good thrashing?
I'm available at the weekend if I can help.

That would be a big help.  I'll call you.  John can't make it but he's offered the loan of his kt (lovely bloke) for comparison purposes.  I've got to go get it as he's busy being a Dad.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on January 17, 2017, 09:20
Maybe I can earn some positive karma with your engine,  to spend on the Damn Z engine.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 17, 2017, 09:39
Quote from: "jonbill"Maybe I can earn some positive karma with your engine,  to spend on the Damn Z engine.

Happy to have you show me what the problems are and see what we can do to assist.  (I think I know where I can get a few engine spares. like head and block... if required).
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: CrazySX on January 17, 2017, 11:23
I have 2 emanage blues.  You can use one if you promise not to break it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 17, 2017, 11:55
Quote from: "CrazySX"I have 2 emanage blues.  You can use one if you promise not to break it.

That's a very kind offer.  We already have two to play with.  It's not the kit -it's the operator, I'm afraid.  We'll get there.  Big learning curve.
Title: Re: RE: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: CrazySX on January 17, 2017, 12:15
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "CrazySX"I have 2 emanage blues.  You can use one if you promise not to break it.

That's a very kind offer.  We already have two to play with.  It's not the kit -it's the operator, I'm afraid.  We'll get there.  Big learning curve.
Ok no worries. Offer is there if you need it.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 17, 2017, 14:45
Going through the basic set-up once more to be sure.  Can Schnazzle (Patrick, or other knowledgeable type) confirm jumper and rotary switch settings??

I have rotary switches: 4 2 2

Jumpers at factory default except J2 which jumped 2-3.

Am I correct?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 17, 2017, 16:44
Pulled it out to take pics. Settle it for once and for all  s:) :) s:)  
A full Screenshot of my settings and map can be found in my readers ride (see link in my signature) near the end

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170117/b1b3b18cfa4c9414479aade174f89fde.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170117/d308e6a51c0af21606cdb9dd279624a1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170117/9e58709915ab948ea115698b3ba5f932.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 17, 2017, 17:26
Brilliant.  You star!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on January 17, 2017, 19:18
Quote from: "Carolyn"
Quote from: "jonbill"Maybe I can earn some positive karma with your engine,  to spend on the Damn Z engine.

Happy to have you show me what the problems are and see what we can do to assist.  (I think I know where I can get a few engine spares. like head and block... if required).

Thanks - I've got spare heads & blocks, but I need to make this head work - too much investment already to give up  :-) :-) :-)
There's nothing drastic, just an endless stream of niggles.
I thought I'd finished last weekend and started it up, only to discover the HG was leaking everything everywhere.
Which then revealed that the head bolts weren't torqued properly
which then revealed that my torque wrench (that snapped inside just after I'd finished assembly!) couldn't be trusted.
so I'm pressure testing the cooling system to be sure and then pulling then engine out again to retorque the main & rod caps.
aaaaagh.

I'm sure the emanage will be light relief!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 17, 2017, 20:31
If it wasn't for bad luck you'd have no luck at all!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 18, 2017, 15:05
Getting to grips with it now.  The ignition harness came labelled for connections, and it seems they were wrong (or open to misinterpretation).  Had two channels wrong (I think).  
Any way, Jon and I will get to the bottom of that, I'm sure.
One more bit of info need as I'm assuming that nothing can be taken for granted.
What (Patrick? Pretty please) is the correct code for the airflow device in setting up parameters?  There's one in there, but I need to double check.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 18, 2017, 15:56
Quote from: "Carolyn"Getting to grips with it now.  The ignition harness came labelled for connections, and it seems they were wrong (or open to misinterpretation).  Had two channels wrong (I think).  
Any way, Jon and I will get to the bottom of that, I'm sure.
One more bit of info need as I'm assuming that nothing can be taken for granted.
What (Patrick? Pretty please) is the correct code for the airflow device in setting up parameters?  There's one in there, but I need to double check.

Mine uses TY_HW-3 [Main Unit Setting]
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 18, 2017, 16:04
Thank you.  We have the same MAF, so that should be good.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 22, 2017, 15:32
Jon came by today and we double checked everything.  The ignition wires in the harness were labelled by 'channel' rather than cylinder.  I had connected them  incorrectly so the firing order was off.  That is corrected and all looks good.

We fired her up (just on the standard ecu) and she's doing more than 10lbs boost.  Time for a bigger pulley.  David will be pleased.

Sounds sweet at idle and revs nicely.

It's so bloody cold in the workshop right now, so it's now on hold until it warms up out there.

Looks like a workable set-up is now in sight.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 22, 2017, 16:01
(http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7e4/823673980_1712703.gif)

Sorry, Homer deserved extra sparkles for all your hard work  s:D :D s:D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on January 22, 2017, 16:13
And the only thing to add is that it makes a proper supercharger sound...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 22, 2017, 16:57
Brilliant! So now it's off to a tuner or are you going to do it on the road?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 22, 2017, 17:47
Get the boost level right and use a mate's dyno.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 22, 2017, 18:23
From what I have read 9PSI is the absolute maximum for reliability with stock internals so I am looking for 6.5-7 on my build.
Im going to go for a electronic boost controller so I can have wastegated Boost of 4 PSI and up to 7 for "hooligan mode"
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 22, 2017, 18:45
Yes I'm looking for an absolute max 8 psi.

As I'm looking to not have to rev her hard, that should give me the mid-range power I'm looking for.

I can see the attraction of a boost controller...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on January 22, 2017, 18:47
What size pulley are you using at the moment?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 22, 2017, 18:54
105 mm.  I thought we'd be much less efficient.  Not so.  Get yer calculator out, Patrick.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on January 22, 2017, 19:11
That's very impressive. Are you running without an intercooler as that will help efficiency compared to the Mini setup. Presumably you got it to rev up towards the red line to see 10psi, do you have an Air/fuel ratio sensor?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 22, 2017, 19:19
No intercooler.  Not quite redline..  Presume nothing - we may even be more efficient than the Mini!!

The original 120 mm??  no other data as yet.

When the emange goes back in, we'll collect some real-time data.  Only standard O2 sensors...

Pulley size first.  Then make the pulley, then worry about the rest.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 22, 2017, 20:43
Carolyn
I'll send you my Prosport AFR kit if you need one to borrow?
 m http://www.fastwrx.com/products/prospor ... d-kit-52mm (http://www.fastwrx.com/products/prosport-analog-wideband-kit-52mm) m

Just splice 1 o2 sensor to run the 2 normal O2 sensor sockets and then bung the Wideband in the spare hole!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on January 22, 2017, 21:11
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Carolyn
I'll send you my Prosport AFR kit if you need one to borrow?
 m http://www.fastwrx.com/products/prospor ... d-kit-52mm (http://www.fastwrx.com/products/prosport-analog-wideband-kit-52mm) m

Just splice 1 o2 sensor to run the 2 normal O2 sensor sockets and then bung the Wideband in the spare hole!
Ah thats clever. I read about splicing o2 sensors in another thread but didn't understand what they meant there!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on January 22, 2017, 21:53
You've run it at full load on the stock ECU?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jacobsprky on January 22, 2017, 23:39
well done on all your hard work, hopfully everything goes well for you. keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 07:39
Chris:  No load.  Don't plan to do that with the present boost level.  Don't like the possible consequences.  I'm not planning on putting it under load until the boost is in the < 8lbs range.  David has to make a new pulley to get that.

Gary:  That would be a big help.

Jon:  I was talking ollocks re where the boost line was attached (I was thinking about the vacuum for the BOV, doh!).  The boost line comes off the output of the supercharger.

Patrick (Lamcote): what do you reckon for pulley size?  When we get that right, we'll put the emange in and start tuning.

I'll take a pic of the map that's in the emanage for others to peruse.  The timing map looks pretty conservative to me....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on January 23, 2017, 07:46
Ah ok. If throttle is after blower, you won't know how much boost is actually being presented to the engine until it comes under load and the engine is breathing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 07:49
Ah, I was wondering about that.  What would you expect to see under no load?  higher or lower?  It was showing 8lbs  and then spiking up.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 23, 2017, 08:24
Quote from: "Carolyn"Chris:  No load.  Don't plan to do that with the present boost level.  Don't like the possible consequences.  I'm not planning on putting it under load until the boost is in the < 8lbs range.  David has to make a new pulley to get that.

Gary:  That would be a big help.

Jon:  I was talking ollocks re where the boost line was attached (I was thinking about the vacuum for the BOV, doh!).  The boost line comes off the output of the supercharger.

Patrick (Lamcote): what do you reckon for pulley size?  When we get that right, we'll put the emange in and start tuning.

I'll take a pic of the map that's in the emanage for others to peruse.  The timing map looks pretty conservative to me....

PM me your address (pruned my inbox the other day and must have deleted it) and I'll wack it in the post
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: ChrisGB on January 23, 2017, 08:29
If the blower is pressurising the inlet tract up to the throttle plate, the air is not going anywhere, so you will see a lot of boost. Ideally, you want to measure boost after the throttle plate, this will tell you how much the engine is seeing. I'm assuming that you are measuring boost before throttle, given the level being produced without the throttle being open?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 08:42
That's the level with the throttle open.  Engine not under load but revving.  It has BOV with recirc.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 09:32
Thinking about it....  The gauge showed 8lbs as the revs picked up then spiked as it stopped accelerating the engine.  It was not wide open, so the spike would be seeing the back pressure from the throttle plate.
I'll drop her onto the floor and slip the clutch in high gear and see what we get.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 14:43
Going to re-plumb the boost line to other side of throttle.

so which wideband sensor?  Bosch is the one that keeps popping up.  Five wire - they all seem to be that.  I'll need input on wiring it in.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 23, 2017, 19:12
The Wideband sensor in the kit I'm sending is a Bosch one
Part number D 258 017 025
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 23, 2017, 19:14
Ah, ok.  Promise not to chuck it on the floor!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 23, 2017, 19:47
The kit I have is standalone, sensor, controller & gauge. But Should be able to splice it into the EMB tho somehow
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 3, 2017, 12:15
This is what's in my Emanage at present.  Just fuel and ignition - no air map...

Just want to be sure it's fairly detonation proof.  Views. please.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20170203_115519.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20170203_115519.jpg.html)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20170203_115540.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20170203_115540.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 4, 2017, 08:46
My comment would be that the fuel mapping is likely to cause the standard ECU to quickly create a long term fuel trim that pulls a lot of fuel out and this could lead to a significantly lean situation in open loop at the top end. You will be fighting the standard ECU all the way if your remap doesn't deliver stoichiometric mixture in closed loop ie without fuel trim intervention.
You really need to be watching the wideband sensor very closely and making adjustments as you go.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 4, 2017, 09:16
Do you need to tail off the timing a couple degrees from about 4.5k onwards?

 And as Patrick said, the fueling will need to be watched for AFR. The ECU will not like those closed loop fueling settings at all. You have it starting at boost, but the ECU doesn't know boost so it'll just go off rpm/temp/load/o2 sensor(s) and pull fueling anyway.

To give you an impression of how quickly the stock ECU starts fighting...
If I reset my ecu and drive out of me estate, up a 50 road for 2 miles and onto the A1. By the time I get 3 miles down the A1 my long term fuel trims take a sudden nosedive and stay there.

So you get less than 10 minutes of driving on the emanage settings.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 4, 2017, 09:30
Shnazzle, the key is hitting stoichiometric in closed loop. As you say, the ECU doesn't know boost, but it also doesn't know what the settings are either, it just sees the O2 sensor data. As long as it sees stoichiometric mixture it is happy. This means that with a boosted engine you could well have a lot of extra fueling mapped in parts of closed loop, if you have a lot more air going into the engine, you just have to match fuel and air to hit stoichiometric.
You will have to watch that wideband in closed loop for the first 10 minutes to see what mixture your remap actually produces and amend as necessary.
My gut feeling, and it's no more than that, is the map shown overeggs the fuel for safety, however the problem with this is that it could cause a lean mixture in open loop as I said before. BUT I would expect the final map to be adding a fair amount of fuel in parts of closed loop where there is boost.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 4, 2017, 10:00
I have the loan of a wideband AFR kit (thanks to Gary) and Schnazzle-Patrick is going to do me one of his open loop trick-the-emanage kits...

Chris GB has been helping me to get to the bottom of getting an accurate boost reading... I'm going to be putting the car on rollers to get a reading under load.

Then I'll probably have to re-size the pulley to get target boost (c. 5 psi.)  Then it can be tuned,,,,

We'll get there.  At least the mechanicals are working lovely.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on February 4, 2017, 10:27
Remember that closed loop is only used at idle and cold running.
So you're under no boost at that time and the standard ecu will likely be relatively happy running things.
Fuel map and timing are basic adjustments obviously adding airflow adjustment is worthwhile under boost, the standard ecu will start pulling timing back if excessive knock is detected (one of the advantages of a piggy back setup).
A full professional map will obviously be the safest option.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 4, 2017, 11:19
You'd be surprised how often the stupid thing goes into closed loop Nic. When I've monitored it on my drive to work and when I was tinkering, I swear it spent most of the time in closed until I was either coasting (goes open on deceleration) or when when I was accelerating with a bit more haste.
The rest of the time the stupid thing is in closed. It absolutely adores its o2 sensors.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Wabbitkilla on February 4, 2017, 13:10
Quote from: "shnazzle"You'd be surprised how often the stupid thing goes into closed loop Nic. When I've monitored it on my drive to work and when I was tinkering, I swear it spent most of the time in closed until I was either coasting (goes open on deceleration) or when when I was accelerating with a bit more haste.
The rest of the time the stupid thing is in closed. It absolutely adores its o2 sensors.

I suppose that's because you drive like a pussy   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:P :P s:P
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 4, 2017, 13:33
Haha! Right you are!
Keep complaining about how slow these cars are, but if you drive with any kind of vigor you're breaking the law
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 4, 2017, 15:57
Haha! Right you are!
Keep complaining about how slow these cars are, but if you drive with any kind of vigor you're breaking the law
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 18, 2017, 11:55
Schnazzle's Emanage Trickery Unit (that's its official nomenclature) has arrived and is now hooked in.  Thank you Patrick.  Club donation duly supplied.  Now to finish our home-made rolling road....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on February 18, 2017, 16:14
Quote from: "Carolyn"Now to finish our home-made rolling road....

Are you related to MacGyver? (The proper one not the crappy remake)   s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 18, 2017, 16:20
didn't know there was a remake...

So long as we can run her up safely under load, the only thing I'd be missing from a dyno would be HP and torque - and I don't really care.... just want it to run well .  Rollers aren't too hard....
Anyway -mullets are banned in our family.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 18, 2017, 17:07
I won't tolerate a bad word being said about the original Macgyver series or Richard Dean Anderson.
The new one is utter utter utter kak and a total kick in the teeth to Macgyver.

Rant over.
Let's get this thing on the (rolling) road!

What a fantastic idea for mapping.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 18, 2017, 17:16
Yep.  with rollers you can do little and often, rather than risking damage running on the road.  A bit of detonation in small doses is preferable... though I'm mapping for slightly rich and timing knocked bak 7 degrees at boost and 4500 rpm.  Then it can be tuned from there...
Just got to finish the repairs on the rental property first.  (Been putting that off...)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 19, 2017, 09:11
To make things a bit more complicated/interesting...

 m http://www.srtsyndicate.com/archive/ind ... t-272.html (http://www.srtsyndicate.com/archive/index.php/t-272.html) m

It's a hell of a read but in summary it's a further advancement on the box of tricks.

It allows auto-tune to a preset AFR.

It uses a hobbs to send wideband signal through the TPS input on the emanage at specific level of boost.
And then also does what you already have to force the car into open loop.

In short, it sends AFR wideband through the tps line on emanage so that you can tune by AFR, but only in boost. So if you want 11.5afr, you dial that in and when you've hit X psi boost it will adjust the MAF signal to remove or add air to get to 11.5. Very clever.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 19, 2017, 09:25
Be warned.

I got a virus alert on that link.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 20, 2017, 19:08
Latest update:
 The Emanage is programmed (thanks Chris GB for input) to run just a little rich, and is now in the car.  Patrick's trickery unit is in.  She's been fired up and is running sweet.  Still needs rolling road tuning but, essentially it's done.  Last thing is to put heat shielding around the (inverted) air-box.
Thanks for project contributions from Shnazzle, Jonbil, Headcase, Esses2visuvesi, Lamcote, Chris GB, Jvanzyl and a few others....  
In many ways a true MROC group project, which is something the club can be proud of.
At some point I shall document all the things needed and 'to do', to do one of these for yourself.
It took a few months and a few squids but we've done the learning curve, so subsequent ones should be much easier.
Anyone who wants to come see is welcome, just send a PM.
Again, thanks to all, and apologies to anyone I've not mentioned.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on February 20, 2017, 19:23
Happy to help out where I can  s:) :) s:)
Now to fit my turbo kit! lol
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on February 20, 2017, 19:54
I'm very pleased and would love to see/feel it in the flesh.
I'm really glad as well that, as you said, it's been an MR2ROC project. You and hubbie did 90% of the work of course, but it was great to see the collective expertise come together.

Good stuff all! And thanks Carolyn for footing the bills and doing  this of course.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on February 20, 2017, 20:27
Right so who wants to buy a mini supercharger?   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  
I have one in the shed as I was going to follow Carolyn's lead and go SC but then decided to go turbo
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 22, 2017, 10:16
Excellent, but so many questions!

Which pulley size?
How much boost?
Is it drivable/usable?
How loud is it?
Does it idle OK?
Does it look like it will be a viable option for others to do? If not, then why not?
What are the good bits?
Are there any drawbacks?

I would really appreciate any information you have time to provide.

Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 22, 2017, 11:40
Which pulley size?  105 mm (might be too small)  What do your calcs suggest for a target of 6lbs??  Or perhaps I should ask, what is the theoretical max boost at 5,000 rpm with a 105 mm pulley?  I know you love doing these sums, Patrick.

How much boost?  Not absolutely sure, as (at present) I have to drive it illegally to find out, but around 6-8 lbs...

Is it drivable/usable?  Looks like it.

How loud is it?  Louder than I'd like, but acceptable.  There is room for a small additional can, but it's no louder than my neighbours Seven and that's legal.

Does it idle OK?  Idles lovely (which bodes well).

Does it look like it will be a viable option for others to do? If not, then why not?  Big question.  It depends on what you can do for yourself and what you have to pay others to do. AND on what you're prepared to spend.  The supercharger has had to be slightly modified, some casting removed to allow for the output pipe and the water-pump drive disabled.  We gave it a service with a good clean-out and new (special) oil.  Fabricating the exhaust is quite a job.  Then there's the cost of the Emange blue and harnesses...  The sub-frame turned out not to be a problem, but we had to cut out the two diagonal braces that go to the top cross member.  We're putting in an extra strut brace, a bit like a TRD, but bent to allow the fan in the engine lid to clear.  When I get the time (after the kinks are ironed out) I'll list what needs to be done....

What are the good bits?   All fits and it WILL work (even if I have to put on a different pulley).

Are there any drawbacks?   We'll see.  I have to justify spending the money to put it on the road legally to really know.

In other words... got to do the rolling road stuff to give proper answers, but...

If the boost is right, there is absolutely no reason why it should not be as reliable as a decent turbo set- up and, of course the boost comes in lower down and has a really flat trace - so it should give that mid-range 'kick' I was after.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 22, 2017, 14:15
just remembered:  Making the pulley and machining the key slot in the supercharger driveshaft....  That's a job most will have to pay a machine shop to do.

One we know the correct (ideal) pulley size) the pulley machining can be set up for CNC and be quite reproducible.   The drive shaft has to be pressed out of the housing for machining and pressed back in.  For us (our own machine shop and tame master machinist) this was not a big issue.  For others it is an added expense.

There's quite a lot of welding to do, the exhaust, the output duct and the mounting brackets.  Most folk would have to outsource that, though cutting and shaping the parts ready for welding is not too hard.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on February 22, 2017, 19:42
So pleased to hear you have this in the can
I know this is the route you took,
 but for anyone following in your footsteps
 supercharger pullies are a simple clamp on part, via my mini specialist, no machine shop required, just need to confirm final diameter that suits the application best on he road
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 22, 2017, 19:48
Not in the size I needed.  If you look back through the thread (there's a lot of it!), you'll see this was investigated.  Believe me, we didn't want to have to make pulleys.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Blue al on February 22, 2017, 20:06
Quote from: "Carolyn"Not in the size I needed.  If you look back through the thread (there's a lot of it!), you'll see this was investigated.  Believe me, we didn't want to have to make pulleys.

Apologies if I missed that point

These are only the "off the shelf" dims that suit the mini as a double check, look at bottom of this page
 m http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/mini-tuni ... ger-tuning (http://www.kavsmotorsport.com/mini-tuning-products/mini-cooper-s-supercharger-tuning) m

Custom sizes can be made, that will suit the 2 part clamp system,
gives some onward flexibility should you wish to fiddle with the boost
For example One was changed on my car at the side of the track at santpod
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 22, 2017, 20:13
Yep - we looked at that source, amongst others and actually found bigger ones than they offer - but not big enough.

As we can make our own, it made no sense to special order one.  We went for the key method because we could make pulleys ourselves.  Just as easy to change...  All about budget in the end.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 22, 2017, 20:50
The actual boost produced by a supercharger depends on the efficiency of the inlet tract so to calculate likely boost pressures with different pulley sizes I really need an accurate measurement of the boost in the plenum chamber you are getting with the 105mm pulley. I could then calculate what difference a different pulley size would be likely to make.
Without the current boost I would have to estimate that efficiency number and that inevitably leads to inaccurate results.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 23, 2017, 08:10
Quote from: "lamcote"The actual boost produced by a supercharger depends on the efficiency of the inlet tract so to calculate likely boost pressures with different pulley sizes I really need an accurate measurement of the boost in the plenum chamber you are getting with the 105mm pulley. I could then calculate what difference a different pulley size would be likely to make.
Without the current boost I would have to estimate that efficiency number and that inevitably leads to inaccurate results.

Point taken, Patrick.  I'm after a 'theoretical' number - not an 'accurate' one.  If you calculate on the basis you used before to arrive at a possible 120 mm pulley, what boost would 105 mm give?  I don't expect the answer to be accurate..   It's an 'all things being equal' request.  I don't expect we'll get as high as the number you come up with, just a 'maximum possible'.

I'm trying to avoid putting it under load with a bunch more boost than I think I've got.  If I know what is the most a 105 mm pulley will give, I can load her up with a safe setting.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on February 23, 2017, 11:06
Based on the previous calculation for 120mm but modified for 105mm

1.6l is 0.88888 of 1.8l
138.7/65.5 = 2.12 and 135/105 = 1.285
1.285/2.12 = 0.606
10.5psi * 0.888 * 0.606 = 5.6psi
Assume our layout is 15% less efficient than the OEM Mini
5.6 * .85 = 4.7psi

However, this was always intended to be a safe starting point, so I think this actually overestimates the potential boost because I am not convinced that the impact of the changed pulley diameter is really a straight line, so the max boost achievable may well be less than 4.7psi calculated above, so the 105mm pulley should be safe.

To achieve the 6-8 psi you want it may need a smaller pulley again, maybe even the standard 65.5? Things will be much clearer when we get a boost measurement.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 23, 2017, 12:38
Cheers Patrick.. That's just what I was after.  5.6 psi would be brill.  I do have a smaller pulley lined up, just in case.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on March 27, 2017, 00:38
Not sure if you chaps have seen this
 m http://autoapps.eaton.com/Simulator/ (http://autoapps.eaton.com/Simulator/) m
might help with you calculations for pulley sizes
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on March 27, 2017, 08:07
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Not sure if you chaps have seen this
 m http://autoapps.eaton.com/Simulator/ (http://autoapps.eaton.com/Simulator/) m
might help with you calculations for pulley sizes

Thanks for that.  Had a go with it, but it was so slow, I lost the will to live and had to lie down....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on April 30, 2017, 16:34
Any updates on how this has turned out?

Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 6, 2017, 13:30
An update.  I've just put a rebuilt engine in the car and built the systems back up.  I thought I'd get a pic before it's all obscured by the exhaust.  Gives folk a chance to see the layout.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: The Other Stu on October 6, 2017, 14:01
Is it still running rich?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 6, 2017, 14:11
Who knows?  Haven't started it yet.  Small matter of putting the exhaust on.  Got standard injectors in for now, so it should be fine.  I think all the nasty black stuff was the result of a buggered engine.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on October 6, 2017, 15:26
What's the gubbins on the left in the alloy thing? Are you hiding an air filter in there?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 6, 2017, 15:37
That's the original airbox.  Turned through 90 degrees and upside down.  The alloy is heat shielding.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on October 6, 2017, 16:35
Clever  sdick dick sdick y
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 6, 2017, 18:01
I so want to know what got censored?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Joesson on October 6, 2017, 18:09
Clever indeed.
I tried to emulate "censored" and "y" without success!

To use an old expression, maybe it' s Double Dutch  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 6, 2017, 19:21
Double Dutch?  Ah that would be Mr. Den Ousten and Mr. Vanzyl?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on October 6, 2017, 19:48
Carolynne
Do you have an aerial photo of the layout please? and one of the exhaust manifold off the car?
Thanks


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: RE: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on October 6, 2017, 20:09
Quote from: "Carolyn"Double Dutch?  Ah that would be Mr. Den Ousten and Mr. Vanzyl?
Nah. John's a fake Dutchy. Pretender. Name isn't even written correctly  s:) :) s:)  Once he starts introducing himself as Jan van Zijl, we can talk hehehe
Quote from: "Carolyn"I so want to know what got censored?
I didn't see the censorship haha! Must have that setting off
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on October 6, 2017, 20:11
That's John François Le Grange van Zyl to you mister!  s;-) ;-) s;-)  can't get the umlaut on the y on this keypad..

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 09:53
Herewith the manifold.  Picture from up top, later...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on October 7, 2017, 09:54
All the cool houses have exhaust manifolds in the lounge and fire extinguishers in the background!

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on October 7, 2017, 10:00
What was the verdict on the manifold in the end?
Is it fine the way it is or is it still a stopgap solution? Not that I can see any other way for it to go other than to split off to the left and right around the sc hehe. Would look cool. A v-block-like arrangement.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 10:12
It seems to wokk fine.  Although, without anything to compare it to (in this application), who knows?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 10:18
Top views.  That's yer lot!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on October 7, 2017, 10:19
Thanks Carolynne. I remember now. The lengths will be off but the SC will correct for that. The engine may run a bit rough and lumpy at very low rpm though. I suspect your stock airbox will help smooth the running but it will be a bit lack luster below 2k.

No criticism from me just thinking aloud. A bespoke manifold will make a big difference to the power band and delivery. And especially combat flat spots in the power delivery.

I look forward to the first test run.

Good luck.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on October 7, 2017, 10:22
Oh, you posted those while I was planning my essay! Thanks again Carolynne.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 10:23
It has always idled fine. And pulled well.  It's just that the engine was bad.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on October 7, 2017, 10:45
Oh no criticism intended, just thinking aloud. Looking forward to the first run.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 10:56
Non taken, Tyler.  I am a big believer in 'doing the experiment'.  There will be tons of room for improvement, I'm sure, but this also had to be kept within a reasonable budget, while the concept is worked out.  So far, it has surprised me how well it runs.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on October 7, 2017, 11:01
I wish I had the skills, knowledge, time, space, funds to have done this.
Well impressed and I'd love a run out when it's "done"  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on October 7, 2017, 11:31
What's the current list of things to be done?

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Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 11:56
Longer than my bloody arm.... 'Done' is a very moveable feast.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on October 7, 2017, 12:08
Quote from: "Carolyn"Longer than my bloody arm.... 'Done' is a very moveable feast.

Maybe this will help?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ba/69/ce/ba69ce1d1e4f6d6d9ae8d090774a877b.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on October 7, 2017, 12:25
I like that. Might put it on the wall at work [emoji106]
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on October 7, 2017, 13:14
My favourite is point 11
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 7, 2017, 13:31
This would, therefore, be a #11:
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on October 7, 2017, 22:18
It certainly looks done
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 9, 2017, 13:57
Primed the engine and fired it up.  No black smoke.  Chain tensioner useless...  Wondered why I'd left it out when I rebuilt it.... that would have been to remind me to get a new one!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: BahnStormer on November 7, 2017, 08:23
I was thinking about getting a s'charger on my 1zz... really keen to see how this pans out, both in terms of lessons learned and to see how the drivability has changed - same thinking as you - I'd like a little more instant low- and mid-end torque, but I'm not interested in revving the nuts off it to get the extra power and I want instant throttle response - the idea of a turbo spooling and boost coming in at 3000-4000 rpm mid corner does not appeal!

TBH slightly scared at how long it has taken. Would be interesting to see what you think the end to end time SHOULD be with a full time mechanic on it: I don't have a workshop or even a garage any more, so this needs to be done professionally as I don't think I know anybody with a workshop that can handle a MR2 sitting in the corner for months on end! (please let me know if there's anybody offering to do these types of conversions)...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 7, 2017, 08:56
 m http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/super ... -kits.html (http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html) m
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on November 7, 2017, 17:50
I don't want to thread hijack but the 7 Motorsports kit is rotrex based which won't really offer much low down and compared to a turbo offers little torque.
It will however make plenty of power and be much easier on engine and gearbox than a turbo or an Eaton blower.
Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: BahnStormer on November 8, 2017, 22:08
Quote from: "shnazzle"http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html

Thanks - pricey, but VERY nice!!

Quote from: "1979scotte"Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
.... is what I'm after. Low end torque is nice, but I'd gladly trade some of that earlier turbo boost for instant throttle response and predictability...

I'm guessing that se7en's claims for a 1zz are a little OTT (although they do say you'll also need a new exhaust)....
QuoteThis will give you 200-215BHP* @ 8 Psi of Boost

Anything close to 200bhp would be plenty!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on November 8, 2017, 22:37
Quote from: "BahnStormer"
Quote from: "shnazzle"http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/supercharger-kits.html

Thanks - pricey, but VERY nice!!

Quote from: "1979scotte"Extremely predictable linear power delivery.
.... is what I'm after. Low end torque is nice, but I'd gladly trade some of that earlier turbo boost for instant throttle response and predictability...

I'm guessing that se7en's claims for a 1zz are a little OTT (although they do say you'll also need a new exhaust)....
QuoteThis will give you 200-215BHP* @ 8 Psi of Boost

Anything close to 200bhp would be plenty!

If any thing I think 7 are being conservative.
No reason to limit the blower to 8psi.
10 psi on a tb2559 turbo is reliable should be more so on a rotrex.
Very little parasitic loss good efficiency low charge temperature and no torque spike is all good.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 8, 2017, 22:41
BahnStormer
Those claims are reasonable with a good exhaust and tuning with a piggyback/stand alone ecu. And it'll make very good torque, just smoothly and linearly, not all low down and meaty like the Eaton.

The se7en Motorsports kit uses the bigger 30-94 charger which is good for lots of top end power on the 2zz or a fully built 1zz but more importantly, with the appropriate restrictor on the inlet and smaller pulley size it will make great boost at low rpm and be restricted from boosting high into the revs thus limiting maximum power but having loads of low down torque, similar to an Eaton but in a smoother delivery from about 2-2.5k rpm.

Some very interesting reading on this on the Spyderchat forum, an some neat installations there also. I agree the price is high though, and would want to get the bones of the kit and do a build myself. Ideally I would locate the charger in place of the AC Pump, which most guys have done in the Spyderchat threads.

Scotte
The Rotrex will make as much torque low down as an Eaton if you want to build it that way, depends on what you want.

Carollynne
Any updates for us?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on November 8, 2017, 23:15
Quote from: "MrT"Scotte
The Rotrex will make as much torque low down as an Eaton if you want to build it that way, depends on what you want.

Carollynne

Hi Tyler
I am using a BOV to limit the  boost on my rotrex c30-94 so as to reach maximum boost in the midrange rather than peak revs.
She won't make the same torque as an Eaton at low revs at least I don't think so.
Roots type blowers are positive displacement make consistent boost through the rev range.
As in you get 5 psi at idle and 5psi at max RPM and 5psi everywhere in between.
They just produce massive heat at higher revs which effects efficiency.
A Rotrex is centrifugal type more revs = more boost and although I won't know it for a fact until I actually fit it I don't think it will be making any boost at 900 rpm.
This is probably over simplified but it's how I understand it.
Have a good book about superchargers lying about somewhere need to re read it.
How is your project coming along?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 8, 2017, 23:31
Carolynne
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, tell me to shut it if off topic.

Hi Scotte
Yes, I'm well versed in the function of the 2 types of chargers. The trick is your BOV will be blowing lots of bypass at high rpm if your charger is not restricted. But restricting it means you can run the Rotrex at a higher rpm meaning it reaches decent speeds lower in the revs then the restrictor (a smaller inlet trumpet insert) limits the volume/flow of air into the charger meaning it cannot output too much air and the BOV has an easier time controlling the flow and limits the back-flow of air.
Assuming your BOV returns before the charger but after the MAF this is not detrimental as the returned air will cycle through the Rotrex but the heat will build up if it is happening a lot as the same air is receiving more and more heat. This will happen to varying degrees depending on your application so may be insignificant for you but we won't know until your build is ready to start, or understand fully the spec of your build, not for this thread.
Note, the BOV is beneficial (thought not essential at low boost) to control closed throttle boost as the SC keeps pumping at the rate of engine rpm regardless of throttle opening unlike a Turbo so that is good. Make sure the BOV isn't cycling back upstream of the MAF as it may fool the ECU into thinking there is more air entering the engine or be harder to control. That is also why it is not vented to atmosphere (aside from turning the car into a job mobile...).

Happy to discuss further outside Carolynne's thread.

Carolynne, thinking about it, was there a logic for you using a BOV at lower PSI? I think you are running ~8PSI currently, but might have missed a change somewhere.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 9, 2017, 07:31
In my experimental car, the BOV is acting as a bypass valve, to deal with rapid shutting of the throttle (as in the original Mini application).  As you assumed, it returns to the input of the supercharger.  The MAF is upstream of the return.  There is quite a discussion of the BOV earlier in the thread.  In my case, the whole point of the exercise is to give more oomph lower down the rev range.
Bahnstormer: I'm lucky in that I have plenty of space and a big workshop, and another MR2.  This is a hobby project and I work on it only when time, inclination and (unfortunately) my health allow.  I reckon (fore-armed with knowing exactly what to do and how to do it) the actual physical build could be accomplished in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: lamcote on November 9, 2017, 08:48
Thought I might chip in ;

A turbo setup uses a BOV and a wastegate valve. (In the Mclaren P1 vids you hear the wastegate making a chirping noise and the BOV makes the whoofling noise). The BOV protects the turbo when you lift off the throttle, the wastegate limits boost by diverting exhaust gas.

An Eaton supercharger needs a BOV but not a wastegate, indeed a wastegate won't work at all with a positive displacement supercharger. They do however usually have a bypass valve for part throttle operation when boost isn't required. This is separate from the BOV.

Also an Eaton supercharger won't actually produce max boost at very low revs, it should in theory, but it suffers from inefficient rotor sealing at low revs so an engine won't see full boost until typically 2-3000 revs, but it does still provide a proportion of its max boost even at tick over so you will still be getting much more boost than with a Rotrex or turbo at that bottom end.

A Rotrex needs a BOV and I believe it may be possible to fit a wastegate to a Rotrex however, it is far preferable to operate a wastegate on a turbo by diverting exhaust gas, not inlet air, so most if not all wastegates do this. With a Rotrex you would obviously only be able to divert inlet air in some form of wastegate. I'm not sure if such a thing is available? A BOV is too much of a blunt instrument to use as a wastegate as it is either open or closed.

I know Rotrex setups do use restrictor plates but to get significant low end boost the restrictor would be so small you would severely choke off high end boost and be running very inefficiently.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on November 9, 2017, 09:50
Should take this elsewhere.
Total thread hijack.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 9, 2017, 10:22
So to return to topic, lesson is Carolynne knows what to do and this is an example of a GOOD well thought out installation, with creative solutions for the packaging issues of the MR2.

Well done so far Carolynne.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 9, 2017, 11:28
Carolynne

Just looking over your thread and pics, would there be mileage in turning the SC over and plumbing the outlet under the engine beside the sump and into a charge cooler or direct to the intake? Seems a simpler clearer route to me, if a little longer. And a bit further from the heat of the exhaust. Just an idea, wanted to ask your thoughts on it.

Thanks


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 9, 2017, 11:55
I suppose it could be done.  Not sure how the mounting points would work out. The lubrication of the supercharger is (it seems to me) pretty much designed to be one way up. I'm not sure it would be happy upside down. The present route to the intake is as a simple as...  Heat is dealt with by a fan drawing the heat upwards.  Going underneath would leave very little ground clearance, when you think about it.  Turning it over would also just swap the heat from exhaust issue to the intake of the supercharger. Same net calories going in.  
There's a lot to be said for a Rotrex - it's the expense that put me off.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 9, 2017, 11:58
Good points, thanks.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on November 9, 2017, 19:25
Quote from: "Carolyn"There's a lot to be said for a Rotrex - it's the expense that put me off.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2017, 10:04
To sum up.  The supercharger is on. It works.  It gives the low-end improvement I was looking for.  It needs to go on a dyno to be properly set up, but that will have to wait a while (watching pennies).
If anyone wants to copy the set-up, you're welcome to come and have a good look, take measurements for brackets and exhaust and have copies of the files for the project.
In my opinion, the idea is pretty much proven out, though dyno work with a better ECU than I'm presently using would be need to get the final optimum result.
Biggest challenge would be reproducing the special pulley we had to make, though one could simply measure and take to a service with a CNC lathe.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on November 10, 2017, 10:13
I do wonder why the EMB doesn't work for you but others have run pretty hefty turbo power with it.

It's not the best solution obviously, but you'd think it'd do the trick
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2017, 10:27
It probably will.  I'll let you know when we've done the dyno. It has its limitations. It will never be optimal (because of the things it can't do) but probably acceptable. Hell the car's running ok with it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 10, 2017, 13:33
Carolynne
From post 658 ish, are you using the 105mm pulley and have you measured actual boost? Would the car not run on stock ECU at that boost?
How many pennies are needed for the Dyno? I'll contribute for the research benefit.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on November 10, 2017, 13:36
I'm happy to contribute to the Dyno fund as well...
It'd be great to see what the kit can do and be incredibly useful for others who want to go down the same route...

Oh and plus the are a few us running (or wish we were) EMB so the map would be a good place to start for those wishing to leverage it if they went down the route..

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on November 10, 2017, 14:10
Thanks for the offers, guys.  It will be a while.  Not wanting to make a big deal, but health not cooperating....This project is going to have to stand while my geriatric skeleton is giving me problems.
Yes running 105 mm pulley.  Boost around 8psi... It's not legal on the street, so it's not really been up to temperature and run hard, just a couple of short local runs.  Hard to justify tax and insurance and MOT at this stage.
Yes it will run on standard ECU - to a point.  
If someone wants to take the idea forward, I suggest copying what we've done to this point and taking it from there..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on November 10, 2017, 17:33
Thanks Carolynne
Hope you feel better soon.


cheers

Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: BahnStormer on December 5, 2017, 15:48
Quote from: "Carolyn"Thanks for the offers, guys.  It will be a while.  Not wanting to make a big deal, but health not cooperating....This project is going to have to stand while my geriatric skeleton is giving me problems.
Yes running 105 mm pulley.  Boost around 8psi... It's not legal on the street, so it's not really been up to temperature and run hard, just a couple of short local runs.  Hard to justify tax and insurance and MOT at this stage.
Yes it will run on standard ECU - to a point.  
If someone wants to take the idea forward, I suggest copying what we've done to this point and taking it from there..

All the best with the health and let us know if you need to take a collection for the dyno research  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: alancsalt on December 6, 2017, 10:03
Smooth pulleys - smooth side of belt, Grooved pulleys - grooved side of belt. The pic looks like the idler pulley has grooved side facing it? These belts come in a range of lengths, so you'd want best match for this, maybe?

[attachment=0:3491vfho] ia0 serpentine belt.jpg ia0 [/attachment:3491vfho]

Am I talking thru my hat?

Ah, health.. shame.. this was interesting. Take care.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 6, 2017, 11:21
The extra idler pulley is indeed smooth side to smooth side.  It sits on top of the belt to guide it down past the tensioner (The supercharger pulley sits a tad high). Grooves on grooves too!!  The belt length is spot-on.

It ain't over....  yet.

The fact is the supercharger is in, working reliably and making boost. All the systems are in and working.  The thing runs and revs.  So if the question is 'can it be done?', the answer is yes.

Here's a pic of the idler (not a brilliant one, I admit):
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 31, 2018, 00:16
Hi Carolynne
I hope you are feeling better. Any progress with the supercharging? I'm running out of hair brained schemes to squeeze this thing in on the cold side of engine...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on May 31, 2018, 07:22
The mechanical part of the job is done, and has been done for ages.  I'm just holding back on the expense of the needed ECU and dyno work....  Runs pretty well just on the stock ECU, but (obviously) it's not quite 'right'.

The trickiest part of the job is making the pulley and modifying the supercharger to make it fit.

You're welcome to come and have a look and hear/see it running.

I really don't understand why people keep asking about 'progress'.

Jobs is done.  Supercharger is in and running.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on May 31, 2018, 08:17
I think it's because "progress" is defined by some as driving it around and posting YouTube videos of track days etc..



Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 31, 2018, 08:38
Apologies Carolynne, I understood it to not be running correctly for regular use therefore being unfinished. If it runs ok as is that's great.

I was looking at your photos again and wondered, do you think if the SC was flipped 180deg with outlet downward would a 2zz manifold fit above it? And run charge pipe under the sump? Just thinking aloud.

Thanks

Edit: ah is the subframe in the way? Not too clear in the later pics.

Edit: nope looks like it'll clear the subframe. You might have just solved my problem Carolynne. Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on May 31, 2018, 16:44
Quote from: MrT on May 31, 2018, 08:38
Apologies Carolynne, I understood it to not be running correctly for regular use therefore being unfinished. If it runs ok as is that's great.

I was looking at your photos again and wondered, do you think if the SC was flipped 180deg with outlet downward would a 2zz manifold fit above it? And run charge pipe under the sump? Just thinking aloud.

Thanks

Edit: ah is the subframe in the way? Not too clear in the later pics.

The supercharger will be in the way of the manifold either way.  Custom manifold required.  You're guessing.



Edit: nope looks like it'll clear the subframe. You might have just solved my problem Carolynne. Thanks
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on June 4, 2018, 14:55
Seen this kit in the flesh now and I must say the noise of that supercharger is quite something.
you'd definitely turn heads.

The manifold is one thing but the mounting is the genius of this. The custom manufacturing of parts would set anybody else back a hell of a lot of money.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 4, 2018, 16:14
Quote from: Carolyn on May 31, 2018, 16:44
Quote from: MrT on May 31, 2018, 08:38
Apologies Carolynne, I understood it to not be running correctly for regular use therefore being unfinished. If it runs ok as is that's great.

I was looking at your photos again and wondered, do you think if the SC was flipped 180deg with outlet downward would a 2zz manifold fit above it? And run charge pipe under the sump? Just thinking aloud.

Thanks

Edit: ah is the subframe in the way? Not too clear in the later pics.

The supercharger will be in the way of the manifold either way.  Custom manifold required.  You're guessing.



Edit: nope looks like it'll clear the subframe. You might have just solved my problem Carolynne. Thanks
Hi Carolynne
Which part is guessing? I realise the manifold is in the way, that is clear in your photos.

I apologise, I'll take my ramblings to my own thread and get back to work on it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on October 10, 2019, 09:49
As there is renewed interest in this, I'm bumping the thread, so you all can fond it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 25, 2020, 23:26
Right some of us have been wondering... the idea behind what comes next is to enable this modification to be used by more people be enabling the use of any mr2 mk3 manifold, stock or aftermarket.

Is it possible that a "spacer " could be created that would have the same holes as the manifold/head and essentially be 4 tubes held together at each end with the equivalent Mounting brackets?

That way you don't have to spend more money on a custom manifold, just the cat to enable it to go to the standard exhaust mounting point?

So yeah 4 tubes of appropriate length, held together on each end with the mounting plate that is on the end of the normal exhaust manifold that bolts to the head. You attach it to your normal manifold via a standard gasket and some nuts and bolts and the same again to connect the whole thing to the engine block.

That then means you just need a cat pipe to go to the exhaust via a s different route, 2zz injectors, and the silicone piping and a piggy back?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 26, 2020, 10:05
You mean like the exhaust manifold we actually built?  We  cut the flange off a Toyoysport, welded in four extension tubes (long enough for the rest of the manifold to sit to the rear of the subframe). Then we built a 2 1/2" cat pipe to go to a smaller flat silencer. so it would all fit in the available space.

Piggy back won't do the job, I'm afraid.  Has to be stand-alone ecu and a couple of hours on the dyno.

The piping is more complicated than just 'silicone' (especially the input to the supercharger)... but essentially that's what we built.



Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 26, 2020, 10:12
Then there is the matter of making the correct sized multi-grooved pulley and broaching a key-way for it  into the drive-shaft on the supercharger.  Plus designing and fabricating the mounts to bolt the supercharger to the engine....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 26, 2020, 11:33
found this:

manifold extension_640.jpg
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on January 26, 2020, 16:03
Fair enough, the idea behind the manifold "spacer" which would be a bolt in affair, was that it was one less item of custom welding that people would have to take to a shop. 

In the grand scheme, I was thinking that if people wanted to do what you have done, they could source their own charger and ecu etc but could purchase the custom fabricated stuff like the manifold spacer, the pulley and the charger bracket from you. 

I'm basically theorising how to make a kit that's all 😃
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 26, 2020, 17:49
Fair enough.  I'm afraid there's zero chance of our producing kits, though, John!

Anyone who wants to copy what we've made is welcome so to do.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: tatieu on January 27, 2020, 13:45
Do you have an idea of the bhp with this supercharger ?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 27, 2020, 14:25
Quote from: tatieu on January 27, 2020, 13:45Do you have an idea of the bhp with this supercharger ?

I don't 'know' for certain.. We're using a fairly big pulley and keeping boost down ,so I'd guess at around 190.  One day we'll have it dyno'd and then we'll know!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 2, 2020, 19:03
Stop press.  Progress is now being made on tuning the thing, thanks to Jonbill.

Watch this space.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 2, 2020, 19:45
Quote from: Carolyn on July  2, 2020, 19:03Stop press.  Progress is now being made on tuning the thing, thanks to Jonbill.

Watch this space.

I want a multiple applause button! @shnazzle
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 2, 2020, 19:58
Quote from: Carolyn on July  2, 2020, 19:03Stop press.  Progress is now being made on tuning the thing, thanks to Jonbill.

Watch this space.
On the emanage?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 2, 2020, 20:02
Speeduino.  Emanage can't do it.

It's Jon's project.  He has the car at his place.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 2, 2020, 20:42
Quote from: Carolyn on July  2, 2020, 20:02Speeduino.  Emanage can't do it.

It's Jon's project.  He has the car at his place.

Excellent! Open source :) 

Looked at those a while back and they showed great promise to be what MegaSquirt used to be.

Also, when done, it really opens up possibilities for other forum cars.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 2, 2020, 22:22
Quote from: Carolyn on July  2, 2020, 20:02Speeduino.  Emanage can't do it.

It's Jon's project.  He has the car at his place.


So basically you've outsourced us hassling you about this project to @jonbill :) nice
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on July 3, 2020, 08:01
its early days, but it was making some decent power at low rpm yesterday evening (until the inlet duct resonator blew off)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: thetyrant on July 3, 2020, 08:13
Nice work glad to see its moving along :), although in some way i was hoping you would loose interest and split the kit of it and i could buy it for my car :D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 3, 2020, 10:03
Quote from: jonbill on July  3, 2020, 08:01its early days, but it was making some decent power at low rpm yesterday evening (until the inlet duct resonator blew off)

Would it be beneficial if you were provided with an aem kit (the pipe plus filter (old but still serviceable)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on July 3, 2020, 10:07
Quote from: jvanzyl on July  3, 2020, 10:03
Quote from: jonbill on July  3, 2020, 08:01its early days, but it was making some decent power at low rpm yesterday evening (until the inlet duct resonator blew off)

Would it be beneficial if you were provided with an aem kit (the pipe plus filter (old but still serviceable)

maybe, but I think the immediate problem was that the BOV wasn't set right, so too much pressure on closed throttle. I might come back to you, thanks John.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 3, 2020, 10:28
This is the kit just as a ref, the pipe is so long you'd probably end up with it working all the way back to the side inlet!

0B047330-C0B2-404E-9620-A57AA021DE36.jpegF9F730E7-6720-4FAC-83D3-6A399C10991C.jpeg
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 3, 2020, 10:31
Happy to donate my Hurricane to the cause
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 3, 2020, 10:50
Thanks for the offers, guys, but:

Don't forget there's custom pipe work from the outlet of the supercharger.

The present inlet tract works quite well. We'd have to re-do a lot of the plumbing if it were changed.  Plus the accordion rubber tube makes a good shock absorber.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 16, 2020, 17:19
@jonbill it'd been long enough now! What's been happening? please tell us something...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 16, 2020, 17:31
Jon was making good progress when.... one of  the gear cables died.

He's now replaced the cable (HEROIC!!) and has now decided that we need to fit the smaller pulley (which we had made in case it was needed).

We are now awaiting a new auxiliary belt as it needs to be shorter for the smaller pulley.

So far, he's reporting useful power increase lower down, but not much higher up.  He got the thing to run sweetly and to rev out, so it's not far from being a winner!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 16, 2020, 19:15
Good to hear!
Look forward to further updates whenever  available..
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: potge on July 18, 2020, 19:15
Really really interesting! Turbos are nice, but superchargers have another charm. Speeduino is also ramping up so should be a solid basis and relatively low cost.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 18, 2020, 19:18
Quote from: potge on July 18, 2020, 19:15Really really interesting! Turbos are nice, but superchargers have another charm. Speeduino is also ramping up so should be a solid basis and relatively low cost.
Hopefully Speeduino remains open source and user-friendly and doesn't go thr way of MegaSquirt2/3.


Shows a lot of promise
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: potge on July 18, 2020, 19:34
Quote from: shnazzle on July 18, 2020, 19:18
Quote from: potge on July 18, 2020, 19:15Really really interesting! Turbos are nice, but superchargers have another charm. Speeduino is also ramping up so should be a solid basis and relatively low cost.
Hopefully Speeduino remains open source and user-friendly and doesn't go thr way of MegaSquirt2/3.


Shows a lot of promise

Let`s hope so.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on July 27, 2020, 11:32
a quick update for John.
I saw 102kpa at full throttle with the smaller 90mm pulley.
atmospheric pressure was 98 so 1/2 psi or so of boost!
I've ordered an 80mm pulley from the engineering department to see if we can get nearer the original goal of 4-5psi.

I've also ordered a new IAT to go just before they throttle. using the one in the MAF before the supercharger sis inaccurate and laggy I think, so I hope for a more consistent mixture with this.

more updates in a week or so. probably.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on July 27, 2020, 11:37
Quote from: jonbill on July 27, 2020, 11:32a quick update for John.
I saw 102kpa at full throttle with the smaller 90mm pulley.
atmospheric pressure was 98 so 1/2 psi or so of boost!
I've ordered an 80mm pulley from the engineering department to see if we can get nearer the original goal of 4-5psi.

I've also ordered a new IAT to go just before they throttle. using the one in the MAF before the supercharger sis inaccurate and laggy I think, so I hope for a more consistent mixture with this.

more updates in a week or so. probably.
That's the same feedback we received from RRR. Use an aftermarket IAT, not the one in the MAF. Not too close to the TB to reduce heat soak and fast fluctuations.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on July 27, 2020, 13:44
Quote from: jonbill on July 27, 2020, 11:32a quick update for John.
I saw 102kpa at full throttle with the smaller 90mm pulley.
atmospheric pressure was 98 so 1/2 psi or so of boost!
I've ordered an 80mm pulley from the engineering department to see if we can get nearer the original goal of 4-5psi.

I've also ordered a new IAT to go just before they throttle. using the one in the MAF before the supercharger sis inaccurate and laggy I think, so I hope for a more consistent mixture with this.

more updates in a week or so. probably.

John is pleased and thanks you for your kind updates!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 8, 2020, 12:32
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 8, 2020, 12:36
Well that's right noisy!!

I'm sure there are those who will love it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 8, 2020, 12:42
Noisy git! 
But sounds fantastic. 

You've hit the finish line @Carolyn; you, David and @jonbill well and truly proved the concept.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on August 8, 2020, 12:47
That's terrific!
Can we sponsor a dyno day for it? Very happy to contribute to understand what it's actually creating.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Call the midlife! on August 8, 2020, 13:00
Sounds like being on the number 32 bus going through town.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 8, 2020, 13:13
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August  8, 2020, 13:00Sounds like being on the number 32 bus going through town.
Well... Now I can't un-hear that
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 8, 2020, 16:42
Quote from: shnazzle on August  8, 2020, 13:13
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August  8, 2020, 13:00Sounds like being on the number 32 bus going through town.
Well... Now I can't un-hear that
you must have one of those jet engined busses!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Call the midlife! on August 8, 2020, 16:44
Quote from: jonbill on August  8, 2020, 16:42
Quote from: shnazzle on August  8, 2020, 13:13
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August  8, 2020, 13:00Sounds like being on the number 32 bus going through town.
Well... Now I can't un-hear that
you must have one of those jet engined busses!
😂 just the sound of the air hissing.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on August 8, 2020, 20:56
The under load sound. More kleenex required.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 8, 2020, 21:20
Quote from: Ardent on August  8, 2020, 20:56The under load sound. More kleenex required.
"more"?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on August 8, 2020, 21:32
 :-[
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 10, 2020, 16:31
So I took it for a spin today. This was the first time I could do more than piddle up our street. The hill up from Jon's is quite steep, it charged up.  Just to be sure, when leaving in mine I booted it up the hill.  It crawled up by comparison.

There's quite a few things to sort out, as one would expect, but it definitely needs a bigger blow-off valve with exhaust ducting and some kind of silencer.

I could live with the louder-than-stock exhaust (not as loud as some I've heard) and I could live with the supercharger whine, but the blow-off is 'orrible!!

Jon's done a great job getting it tuned, though there's still work to do at low rpm.

The plan is to fix the niggles, get the tune more sorted, do the blow-off and put a few miles on to make sure it's reliable and then it will be up for sale.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: thetyrant on August 10, 2020, 16:43
Nice work and really got me tempted to supercharge mine instead of turbo next time :), getting the noise acceptable is a big factor and i found this when i mini charged my old MX, i used the mini bypass valve to vent back into intake pipework rather than a vta dump which i hate the sounds off and can also make it more difficult to map depending on ecu, i had a lot of supercharger whine though especially once i fitted a smaller pulley to spin it at 17000rpm!, i didnt mind it though and could drive around it if needed and i think all superchargers should make the whine :D  see below for video of me on the slippy oulton park drift track, the special polished tarmac is not where you want instant boost/torque but one of most fun days ive ever had  :D


If you decide to sell the charger setup do let me know :D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: cptspaulding on August 10, 2020, 16:49
Quote from: Carolyn on August 10, 2020, 16:31then it will be up for sale.

I keep reading this post waiting for this bit to appear  :))  :))

The linear pull of a supercharged engine over a turbo has always appealed to me (or maybe I just haven't driven a turbo for long enough). My only worry is I might actually want to buy it  :-[
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 10, 2020, 16:52
Quote from: cptspaulding on August 10, 2020, 16:49
Quote from: Carolyn on August 10, 2020, 16:31then it will be up for sale.

I keep reading this post waiting for this bit to appear  :))  :))

The linear pull of a supercharged engine over a turbo has always appealed to me (or maybe I just haven't driven a turbo for long enough). My only worry is I might actually want to buy it  :-[
You, sir, do NOT need more power :)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 16:40
we've replaced the 25mm BOV with a 50mm one.
I'm afraid its completely ruined the sound effects.
on this upside, inlet air temps are down to a manageable 45-55 degrees, the hoses don't blow off and peak pressure is still the same - 125 kpa or so.
this is the same stretch of road as the previous recording.

https://youtu.be/zYhyq2gsDR8
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 16:46
Sounds much better good work :D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on August 20, 2020, 16:49
Much betterer.  Will be even better with the bins back in.

Getting there.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on August 20, 2020, 17:46
Much better!

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on August 20, 2020, 18:37
Licking that.
Not a typo.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 18:48
@jonbill how are you finding the Speeduino ecu setup ?   its one on my list for when i go turbo and outgrow the EMB ive fitted to tinker with in meantime
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 20:26
Quote from: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 18:48@jonbill how are you finding the Speeduino ecu setup ?   its one on my list for when i go turbo and outgrow the EMB ive fitted to tinker with in meantime
loving it. I haven't got any experience of tuning any other ECUs, but Speeduino has been great and easy to work with on this and my Datsun.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 20, 2020, 22:05
Sounds much better indeed. Transitions OK?
Sounds sweet. Bet you enjoyed it :)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on August 20, 2020, 22:24
Quote from: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 20:26
Quote from: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 18:48@jonbill how are you finding the Speeduino ecu setup ?   its one on my list for when i go turbo and outgrow the EMB ive fitted to tinker with in meantime
loving it. I haven't got any experience of tuning any other ECUs, but Speeduino has been great and easy to work with on this and my Datsun.

Had a read through your posts on the speeduino site. It was a bit like reading how Marc did his AR conversion...
what's your thoughts on this vs an emanage ultimate setup?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Call the midlife! on August 20, 2020, 22:38
Sounds kind of cute now, like it's really enjoying itself "wheeeeeee!"
Liking your work...👍🏻
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 22:57
Quote from: jvanzyl on August 20, 2020, 22:24
Quote from: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 20:26
Quote from: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 18:48@jonbill how are you finding the Speeduino ecu setup ?   its one on my list for when i go turbo and outgrow the EMB ive fitted to tinker with in meantime
loving it. I haven't got any experience of tuning any other ECUs, but Speeduino has been great and easy to work with on this and my Datsun.

Had a read through your posts on the speeduino site. It was a bit like reading how Marc did his AR conversion...
what's your thoughts on this vs an emanage ultimate setup?

I dont really know anything about the Emanage Ultimate so can't compare, sorry John.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 20, 2020, 23:16
Quote from: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 22:57
Quote from: jvanzyl on August 20, 2020, 22:24
Quote from: jonbill on August 20, 2020, 20:26
Quote from: thetyrant on August 20, 2020, 18:48@jonbill how are you finding the Speeduino ecu setup ?  its one on my list for when i go turbo and outgrow the EMB ive fitted to tinker with in meantime
loving it. I haven't got any experience of tuning any other ECUs, but Speeduino has been great and easy to work with on this and my Datsun.

Had a read through your posts on the speeduino site. It was a bit like reading how Marc did his AR conversion...
what's your thoughts on this vs an emanage ultimate setup?

I dont really know anything about the Emanage Ultimate so can't compare, sorry John.
Not comparable :) 

Piggy vs standalone
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on August 21, 2020, 07:12
Ah- I was reading the posts on the forum and thought it was running in parallel.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jonbill on August 21, 2020, 07:57
Quote from: jvanzyl on August 21, 2020, 07:12Ah- I was reading the posts on the forum and thought it was running in parallel.
yes, it is a parallel install. The Speeduino is reading Coolant, crank and cam signals in parallel with the Toyota ECU. Speeduino ECU is controlling fuel and Toyota is controlling everything else. (although I may take over the idle control too)

AIUI, difference between parallel and piggyback is piggyback is modifying inputs to the oem ecu to get the desired effect and parallel just shares sensors  to control outputs independently.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on August 21, 2020, 08:51
I don't think anybody on here is running true standalone. 
We always keep a bit of parallel. 

Unless.... Marc's 2AR-FE BEANs box of tricks works for 1zz. 
That + MWR airco controller for thr K20 kit and you can go full standalone. Without immobiliser
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 5, 2020, 15:45
Update. I visited Jon this afternoon and took the little bugger for a drive.  Jon has done a great job with the tuning.  It idles well, can be driven at low RPM in traffic in comfort and it pulls like a train from 2500 rpm.

The blow-off noise is gone as is much of the supercharger whine.  I just did the sums and it's making around 185 bhp, without having to rev it's tits off. 

It's now going for MOT and then we'll decide what to do with it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on September 6, 2020, 06:26
We can swap it for mine.
You guys need another project car to work on.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 6, 2020, 08:02
We do indeed - bring it on!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 11, 2020, 16:04
The car passed it's MOT no advisories today.  A bit squeaky-bum on emissions, but it passed.  Needs detailing out - but basically it's finished.  Took it for run.  It does go well.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on September 11, 2020, 18:27
Super news
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Bugster_MR2 on September 11, 2020, 20:21
This thread needs pictures and videos of the finished product. 🤓
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Jamtastic on September 11, 2020, 20:26
That's brilliant. All that hard work has paid off. An air of 'Garagista' about it.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 12, 2020, 11:31
It's very crowded in that engine bay!  Not very photogenic, I'm afraid.

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on September 25, 2020, 15:24
Took her round the block today, just to give her some exercise.  Quite cold today.  She does like cold air.!!  The grunt is so instant.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on September 25, 2020, 15:43
Quote from: Carolyn on September 25, 2020, 15:24Took her round the block today, just to give her some exercise.  Quite cold today.  She does like cold air.!!  The grunt is so instant.

My SP240 loved cold damp weather.
It seemed to allow a touch more boost but maybe that was just a dodgy gauge.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: cptspaulding on September 25, 2020, 22:49
I just landed on page 1 by accident (actually quite the worse for wear).

This build has been going 4 & a half years?  Wow. Time flies when you're an old bugger.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 17, 2020, 23:49
Just for completeness,a few months have elapsed since Carolyn decided to sell the beastie, to recoup at least some of the outlay spent on this project. I purchased this wondrous car a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it does indeed fulfill and exceed all expectations of how it goes.
The supercharger really does transform this car onto a completely different level, giving instant power whenever demanded, Carolyn estimated 185 bhp....who knows, but it certainly is appreciably more powerful than stock.
Maybe to the disappointment of some, it will not be my intention to 'tinker around' with it whatsoever as long as it is running as sweetly as it is at the moment.
I simply enjoy driving, although can appreciate the engineering(both mechanical and electronic) that were lavished on this very successful project
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 18, 2020, 06:44
Quote from: Gibla on December 17, 2020, 23:49Just for completeness, a few months elapsed Carolyn decided to sell the beastie, to recoup at least some of the outlay spent on this project. I purchased this wondrous car a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it does indeed fulfill and exceed all expectations of how it goes.
The supercharger really does transform this car onto a completely different level, giving instant power whenever demanded, Carolyn estimated 185 bhp....who knows, but it certainly is appreciably more powerful than stock.
Maybe to the disappointment of some, it will not be my intention to 'tinker around' with it whatsoever as long as it is running as sweetly as it is at the moment.
I simply enjoy driving, although can appreciate the engineering(both mechanical and electronic) that were lavished on this very successful project
I'm just glad it went to a good owner. It deserves it
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on December 18, 2020, 12:51
Quote from: Gibla on December 17, 2020, 23:49Just for completeness, a few months elapsed Carolyn decided to sell the beastie, to recoup at least some of the outlay spent on this project. I purchased this wondrous car a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it does indeed fulfill and exceed all expectations of how it goes.
The supercharger really does transform this car onto a completely different level, giving instant power whenever demanded, Carolyn estimated 185 bhp....who knows, but it certainly is appreciably more powerful than stock.
Maybe to the disappointment of some, it will not be my intention to 'tinker around' with it whatsoever as long as it is running as sweetly as it is at the moment.
I simply enjoy driving, although can appreciate the engineering(both mechanical and electronic) that were lavished on this very successful project
What's it going to take for you to put it on a dyno and generate some numbers so we can see exactly what it produces and where?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 18, 2020, 12:59
Quote from: jvanzyl on December 18, 2020, 12:51
Quote from: Gibla on December 17, 2020, 23:49Just for completeness, a few months elapsed Carolyn decided to sell the beastie, to recoup at least some of the outlay spent on this project. I purchased this wondrous car a couple of weeks ago and can confirm it does indeed fulfill and exceed all expectations of how it goes.
The supercharger really does transform this car onto a completely different level, giving instant power whenever demanded, Carolyn estimated 185 bhp....who knows, but it certainly is appreciably more powerful than stock.
Maybe to the disappointment of some, it will not be my intention to 'tinker around' with it whatsoever as long as it is running as sweetly as it is at the moment.
I simply enjoy driving, although can appreciate the engineering(both mechanical and electronic) that were lavished on this very successful project
What's it going to take for you to put it on a dyno and generate some numbers so we can see exactly what it produces and where?
Bit pointless without the "pre"
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 18, 2020, 13:06
Why spend the money ,when you're happy with what it does?  You can find out for your self on Ding Day!

Anyway, dynos are engine wreckers!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Topdownman on December 18, 2020, 13:16
I am not sure if I would want to listen to my car on a rolling road but if you really must know, these are the people who tuned my GT86;

https://www.tuningdevelopments.uk/rolling.php?language=en

Rolling road from £60.

Nice people and they have a good reputation on the GT86 forums.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 18, 2020, 14:01
@Topdownman

That's not too far away from me

I have looked in vain for a postcode to give a precise location.....can you help please?

ps

Not especially for the rolling road + just found the info

32 Melford Court,
Hardwick Grange,
Birchwood,
Warrington,
Cheshire
WA1 4RZ
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Topdownman on December 18, 2020, 14:26
Looks like you have found the info now and they are shown on google maps as to where exactly they are?

They were hard to find the first time I went there and Mike was taking someone out in their turbo demonstrator  when I turned up and he stopped in the road, asked if I was looking for them and gave me directions!

I thought the location would be pretty good for you. Last time I was there they were considering moving into North Wales but I guess that is on hold.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on December 18, 2020, 14:31
If your happy don't put it on a dyno it really stresses the engine and drivetrain.
Also sometimes finding out your 250bhp install only has 170 can be a tad disappointing.
This then leads to upgraditis down which is the road to ruin.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 18, 2020, 14:58
PLEASE keep it away from dynos. :)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on December 18, 2020, 17:08
I find myself in a curious position. Jekyll n Hyde, hypocrite, two faced or whatever.

I do enjoy watching dyno runs on youtube. Adore listening to a 2zz or K20 or anything for that matter on full taps.

Would I put mine there? Hell No.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on December 18, 2020, 17:11
Quote from: Carolyn on December 18, 2020, 14:58PLEASE keep it away from dynos. :)

I think the bum dyno is all that's required here.
Does it make you smile? Yes!
That's enough then.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 18, 2020, 21:33
Quote from: Carolyn on December 18, 2020, 14:58PLEASE keep it away from dynos. :)

We did discuss this .....it 'aint seeing a dyno (I take your advice)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: puma2 on December 19, 2020, 10:48
 :) sometime in life Just is enough hay.
you got sometime special there and if your happy use it as it is :)

why try and  find out what it can be, when happy is what it is :)

take the builders advice  8)  8)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 15:56
Get the accurate weight, find a straight bit of horizontal road and a tuning app will come quite close. Closer still if you can do same with a stock car, thus can compare.
You can download good enough app for free and it puts no extra stress on the engine/transmission.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 16:20
Quote from: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 15:56Get the accurate weight, find a straight bit of horizontal road and a tuning app will come quite close. Closer still if you can do same with a stock car, thus can compare.
You can download good enough app for free and it puts no extra stress on the engine/transmission.


Any clues as to what are good tuning apps @Petrus ?

Today was another horrible day regarding the weather, but I did give the car something closer to the beans today, and still well under 7000rpm red-line

My estimate would be 0-60mph in under 6 secs, 0-(erm. ain't saying more officer) in ....poa.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 16:40
Quote from: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 16:20Any clues as to what are good tuning apps @Petrus ?


I have used several and it really makes no difference.
Have look at what pops up the app store of yoúr phone and look those up on the web.
All you need it secure the phone horizontally on the floor and .... floor the car :-) and repeat a few times.
The actual numbers are nice to know only.
Repeat with an OEM and you have an accurate, hard % comparison as any dyno can give. For free, more fun and less hassle.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on December 19, 2020, 17:41
Some of the functions are bring done by the parallel ECU (Speeduino).  The software for that is on the DVD you got with the car.

The rest are done by the Toyota ECU.

A lot of runs went into tuning the car.  I do suggest you leave the tune well alone.  By all means take a look at what's going on, though. ;D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 18:12
Quote from: Carolyn on December 19, 2020, 17:41Some of the functions are bring done by the parallel ECU (Speeduino).  The software for that is on the DVD you got with the car.
....
A lot of runs went into tuning the car. 
....
By all means take a look at what's going on, though. ;D

That is übercool; ´video game´ and performance app included :-)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 18:53
Quote from: Carolyn on December 19, 2020, 17:41Some of the functions are bring done by the parallel ECU (Speeduino).  The software for that is on the DVD you got with the car.

The rest are done by the Toyota ECU.

A lot of runs went into tuning the car.  I do suggest you leave the tune well alone.  By all means take a look at what's going on, though. ;D

Really am a philistine and a technophobe rolled into one, there is zero prospect of me plugging anything into the ECU ....rest assured Carolyn. The car is running wonderfully, my 0-60 estimate is of far more importance to me than some abstract bhp number. 
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 18:55
If we belive the car to be producing 185 ish then I would imagine it would be 0-60 in the low 5s.
The tte turbo was sub 6 and that had to spool up something a root's supercharger doesn't have to contend with.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 19:21
That's an interesting 0-60 estimate @1979scotte, my ~ was done at only about 6200rpm max, so still some scope for even better acceleration eh?

But, even though surrounded by some fantastic empty roads around here, I only plan to push the car to such acceleration very briefly on an occasional basis only(very few cameras or police, however........)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 19:24
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 18:55If we belive the car to be producing 185 ish then I would imagine it would be 0-60 in the low 5s.
The tte turbo was sub 6 and that had to spool up something a root's supercharger doesn't have to contend with.

Hmmm. From stock car doing low/mid 8s to 5 secs is rather quick.

Here is a generic power/weight 0 - 60 calculator (do add the driver):

https://www.carspecs.us/calculator/0-60
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 19:27
Also most sane people don't launch the cars in the same way motoring journalists do so you're unlikely to match manufactures figures.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 19:30
Quote from: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 19:24
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 18:55If we belive the car to be producing 185 ish then I would imagine it would be 0-60 in the low 5s.
The tte turbo was sub 6 and that had to spool up something a root's supercharger doesn't have to contend with.

Hmmm. From stock car doing low/mid 8s to 5 secs is rather quick.

Here is a generic power/weight 0 - 60 calculator:

https://www.carspecs.us/calculator/0-60

EVO magazine had the roadster at under 8 seconds.
The TTE turbo is 100% sub 6 every review I've read agrees with my butt dyno that they're quick.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 19:43
Quote from: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 19:24
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 18:55If we belive the car to be producing 185 ish then I would imagine it would be 0-60 in the low 5s.
The tte turbo was sub 6 and that had to spool up something a root's supercharger doesn't have to contend with.

Hmmm. From stock car doing low/mid 8s to 5 secs is rather quick.

Here is a generic power/weight 0 - 60 calculator (do add the driver):

https://www.carspecs.us/calculator/0-60

Assuming 185bhp and the weight inc. driver to be 2550 lbs that gives an estimate of 5.98 secs using that calculator
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 19, 2020, 19:48
TTE has to be sub-6.

We've had a couple 5-6 second cars and when Helen's was running the nasty/dangerous dastek tune at full boost (peak 12psi) it felt a good bit faster than any of those cars. So a "stock" TTE setup, which sounds similar to the SC, must be 6 seconds tops.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 19:51
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 19, 2020, 19:30EVO magazine had the roadster at under 8 seconds.
The TTE turbo is 100% sub 6 every review I've read agrees with my butt dyno that they're quick.

Ask the resident sprinters I´d say. I remember there´s at least one on the forum. He linked weight dropping to times dropping, so I would, wouldn´t I  ;-)

As tests go, a Japanese comparison on youtube of a 2000 SMT and 5MT had  8.151 and 7.920 secs. over 150 meters.  Quite a difference from the over half a second the magazines reported ;-) 

Anyway, maybe @Ardent can enlighten us about his real world TTE.

Anyway2, @Gibla will probably tell us when he reads the test runs on the computer.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 20:08
Of course, all of this is and will remain speculation re 0-60 times and bhp.
The important comparison is with stock :- it's much quicker

Another comparison I can make is the number of cars I have owned in recent times that had a broadly similar performance
Fiesta St(PE) at 0-60 of ~6.2
Ford Focus ST at 0-60 of 5.7
Honda Civic Type R at 5.8
Skoda Superb (280) at 5.6
Hyundai i30N at 6.1

'Superblue' sits somewhere in there, exactly where is relatively unimportant to me

For a 20 year old roadster to be anywhere near these figures is awe-inspiring, and all delivered fuss-free with zero hesitation.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on December 19, 2020, 20:30
From the uber rare tte data sheet.
Screenshot_20201219-202802_OneDrive.jpg
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on December 19, 2020, 20:33
Never mind bhp. What torque are we talking?

That's what floats my boat.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 20:34
Quote from: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 20:08For a 20 year old roadster 

You hit a cord there.
A 20 y.o. Civic R will loose a bit too no?!

Now, as cool as acceleration times undoubtedly are, remember what the reactions are to nitrous oxide??
The übercoolness of yoúr car lies in the responsiveness through/out of corners; the hunting grounds of the Spyder. I am sériously awed by the thought of that :-)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 21:01
My only previous (underwhelming) experience with a supercharged vehicle was driving my deceased father's Mercedes C180 Kompressor to a dealer to sell on behalf of my mother. Although an automatic it was vaguely pleasant, although the weight of course blunted the performance.

The instant lag-free urge of a supercharger has certainly made me bemoan the fact they were not more widely adopted by car manufacturers, preferring the turbo option.

Equal economies of scale could have resulted in broadly similar pricing, but of course turbocharging was the avenue chosen, certainly from the cost pov. but also maybe they offer greater mpg?

Indeed @Petrus the beauty and joy of this car is the very light weight with adequate power to fully exploit the delightful handling while being able to surge to the next corner. We all know about this with our stock '2's , the extra power with no weight increase just magnifies that sensation.

So a long waffly answer......I just love a supercharger!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on December 19, 2020, 21:02
Quote from: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 21:01My only previous (underwhelming) experience with a supercharged vehicle was driving my deceased father's Mercedes C180 Kompressor to a dealer to sell on behalf of my mother. Although an automatic it was vaguely pleasant, although the weight of course blunted the performance.

The instant lag-free urge of a supercharger has certainly made me bemoan the fact they were not more widely adopted by car manufacturers, preferring the turbo option.

Equal economies of scale could have resulted in broadly similar pricing, but of course turbocharging was the avenue chosen, certainly from the cost pov. but also maybe they offer greater mpg?

Indeed @Petrus the beauty and joy of this car is the very light weight with adequate power to fully exploit the delightful handling while being able to surge to the next corner. We all know about this with our stock '2's , the extra power with no weight increase just magnifies that sensation.

So a long waffly answer......I just love a supercharger!!
Too much talk of numbers. 

You love it, it drives great, end of :) 

Jealous
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 21:11
Quote from: shnazzle on December 19, 2020, 21:02You love it, it drives great, end of :)


You want to love it more, search for the greater still.... and down the rabbit hole you gooooóóó.....
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 21:12
Quote from: Ardent on December 19, 2020, 20:33Never mind bhp. What torque are we talking?

That's what floats my boat.

Another unknown(and will remain so) suffice to say it's more than stock, 1/2 decent acceleration can be had in 4th-5th gear at speed, where in many gutless wonders I have owned would require much gear changing to maintain sensible progress.
Honda V-Tec in earlier Civic, Accord type R + S2000 very prone to this as minimal torque
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 19, 2020, 22:29
https://www.carspecs.us/calculator/0-60

says that @Adam28 ´s project is a 4 second car!!!  :))  :))

More importantly, true to the essence of the car, it also corners a lót quicker.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on December 20, 2020, 07:16
Quote from: Gibla on December 19, 2020, 21:12
Quote from: Ardent on December 19, 2020, 20:33Never mind bhp. What torque are we talking?

That's what floats my boat.

Another unknown(and will remain so) suffice to say it's more than stock, 1/2 decent acceleration can be had in 4th-5th gear at speed, where in many gutless wonders I have owned would require much gear changing to maintain sensible progress.
Honda V-Tec in earlier Civic, Accord type R + S2000 very prone to this as minimal torque
Do like torque. Which ever form it comes in.
Taking the working number of 185. That lines up rather nicely with that shown in the data sheet for the tte. Post 827.
Mine very rarely sees 6500rpm.
I just like to ride the wave up to 4500-5000
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on December 20, 2020, 09:44
Quote from: Ardent on December 20, 2020, 07:16Do like torque. Which ever form it comes in.

Although my n.a. 1ZZ is quite quick enough for mé on the public road, I actually, réally!, dream about supercharged bottom/mid range. It is súch a lazy thrill to have under your foot ahhhhh... imagining that in my itsybitsy!!
Enjoy Gibla, ENJOY!!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on December 20, 2020, 11:00
Thanks @Petrus I most certainly shall

This conversion slightly reminds me of one I similarly acquired a number of years ago(long since sold). A Honda Del Sol equipped with a B18C engine, trick suspension, bigger brakes....etc etc. I already owned a Vti (B16 A3) which had the most delicious revvy smooth engine.
The B18 was a beast in that car !!
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 19:11
reviving a dead thread, did you ever look at mounting it atop of the exhaust and place shielding? asking as I'm at the stage of having the parts and putting it all together.

built the super charger kit for a mx5 vvt got 220 out of it. so id imagine id get the same.fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 11, 2021, 19:18
Quote from: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 19:11reviving a dead thread, did you ever look at mounting it atop of the exhaust and place shielding? asking as I'm at the stage of having the parts and putting it all together.

built the super charger kit for a mx5 vvt got 220 out of it. so id imagine id get the same.fingers crossed.

We looked at many ways of mounting it.  In the end - there was only one that worked.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 19:23
was the power steering deleted as a result or did you work a way round the bottom?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on July 11, 2021, 19:43
It will be in here if it was.
But fairly confident the PS is present and correct.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 19:52
il have a real scourer through the thread when I get home as phone screens covered in oil is not ideal.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on July 11, 2021, 19:54
No, definitely not ideal.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on July 11, 2021, 20:43
Quote from: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 19:23was the power steering deleted as a result or did you work a way round the bottom?


The power steering isn't in the engine compartment on a roadster. 
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 21:21
I thought the pump was on the exhaust side of the engine.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on July 11, 2021, 21:28
Quote from: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 21:21I thought the pump was on the exhaust side of the engine.

The pump is electric and in the front.
Not sure what you're on about.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: kostonhumar on July 11, 2021, 21:34
I just had a look, I used to have a few corolla's and it was on the engine so I just made thought it was on there...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on January 24, 2022, 01:13
Resurrecting this fascinating thread once more.

5-6 years have elapsed since you 1st did this 1zz sc conversion @Carolyn and as such, some of the details may be rather hazy in the memory.....but...If you were doing this again with the knowledge you acquired during the build, would you do anything differently?

Here I am thinking and asking purely about the mechanical side of things + assuming a suitable donor car was already available. Maybe heat management, amongst other items you may mention?

You have mentioned on another thread that a number of 2zz owners had supercharged their cars. If any of those owners who had the M45 Eaton supercharger installed would care to comment on where they had that work done + their experience of the Eaton M45 longevity, it would be helpful. Are there other superchargers worth contemplating...cost considerations apply here though!

I have been trying largely in vain to see if there is a firm that sells reconditioned Eaton 45 SC, those firms that do exist will refurbish an existing unit, maybe from e-bay, but with massive caveats that means they are unable to offer any worthwhile guarantee.

As you can probably gauge from my comments and questions, I am seriously contemplating getting another 1zz supercharged beastie(in addition to the original)....but of course, this would need to be commissioned via a willing, trustworthy source.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: shnazzle on January 24, 2022, 07:33
I'll tag a question on to this; would it be easier/possible to fit the same setup to a 1zz car where the engine was the other way around? I.e where the space in the engine bay for the unit would be on the intake side. You'd be able to leave the exhaust side bone stock right?
It may be the cheapest route to 185ish hp in the form of instant torque there is for something like a Yaris or Corolla
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on January 24, 2022, 09:28
I'd use a bigger cat.  I don't think heat has been a problem.  Adding an intercooler could be done, but I'm not sure about the real benefit.  That's an experiment that would have to be conducted.  With an intercooler (or charge cooler) one could run a smaller supercharger pulley and get more power, but at what cost, in terms of engine reliability?  The connecting rods in a 1ZZ aren't the strongest.

I don't see supercharger reliability as a great problem as Eaton M45 superchargers are easy to come by and not difficult to service and refurbish.  The actual changing out of the supercharger is not a huge job, should one fail.  There is minimal amount of physical modification required to get the unit to fit to the mounting brackets, but not much and you have an example to use as a pattern.

Attaching the input plumbing to the supercharger is a challenge, but I think the method we used works just fine.

@Gibla:  when you next visit, we can discuss in more detail?

@shnazzle:  If the engine was the other way round (like a MK1) then that would solve having to build a custom exhaust, but, until one actually sees the layout of the different engine, it's impossible to say if the installation would be 'easier'.  The space may be taken up with the alternator, possible a power steering pump and/or an A/C pump.  Any engine can be supercharged, space permitting.  The challenge we took on was to do it to a 1ZZ in a MK3, as it wasn't obvious, at first, that it could be done.  The only way to find out was to do it!

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on January 24, 2022, 10:08
Quote from: Carolyn on January 24, 2022, 09:28I'd use a bigger cat.  I don't think heat has been a problem.  Adding an intercooler could be done, but I'm not sure about the real benefit.  That's an experiment that would have to be conducted.  With an intercooler (or charge cooler) one could run a smaller supercharger pulley and get more power, but at what cost, in terms of engine reliability?  The connecting rods in a 1ZZ aren't the strongest.


Spot on imo.
The draw back of a supercharger is the ´parasitic´ power; the more it blows, the more more the engine needs to produce.
Unlike with a turbo which cósts nothing to spool up, to produce power.
Thé thing for the kick, no so much for big power.
The ´Carolyn Solution´  is júst the thing for the 1ZZ imo.

Imo the TRD kit on the 1ZZ Corolla/Vibe was the optimal thing. It was the same but sized up as the Mk.1 MR2.
Instant extra oompf, limited extra power/stress.
Also nó mods required to the exhaust/intake other than a swap of the intake manifold for the supercharger. A pity it does not fit in our spyder.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on May 17, 2022, 00:23
Since I have deleted the airco, the option to mount an sc12/14 in that space has been in the back of my mind.
Actually mñeasured it and is should fit but the plumbing.... ::)
With the smaller alternator coming up there will be more space. Will measure again!

The photo below is how the sc14 should be mounted (lubrication) looking from above:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UhaOsbPIS._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

For me this is very much a backburner project which I will only go for it I can leave the exhaust system untouched and the OEM filter box ditto.  I would líke to fit the sc where th airco pump was and route áll the plumbing at the firewall side where it is coolest. This also leaves the option open for a small air/air intercooler as per TTE turbo or simpler still a finned alu tube.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fCQAAOSwQJZiHZmh/s-l500.jpg)


On the Mk1 AW11 Toyota fitted an SC12 with intercooler.
The n.a. engine produced 112 - 130 hp depending on market and year whereas the supercharged engine had 145 hp. This increase in output wíth intercooler is a sobering perspective.
Same horizon for the TRD Rootes type kit on the 1ZZ Corolla/Matrix (from 135 to 170 hp) and the TTE Eaton kit for the 2ZZ (from 189 to 215 hp).

Though turbo, the TTE turbo is much of the ´same´ as that is 185 hp whereas a tuned n.a. does 165/170.

Are we expecting perhaps a bit much? 

@Gibla  how do you now see it, in retrospect? And the current owner (not paid attention to where it went, sorry)?


Btw. have read and reread this thread several times and was, am, will stay in ÁWE.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: J88TEO on May 17, 2022, 09:01
Scratching the itch?  ;D
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on May 17, 2022, 11:06
@Petrus

18+ months on in my ownership, cooling has never really presented any issues. Only two issues reared their heads during that timeframe(both avoidable + neither catastrophic).

I would still heartily recommend you having a go, the Eaton M45 unit off a Mini Cooper S is as cheap as chips and v common. The work that Anon is doing on ECU remapping would certainly tie in nicely with this project(if that proves fruitful).

@MattPerformance may also have some contribution to make here?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on May 17, 2022, 12:37
Thank you @Gibla.
Not going M45 as that will not fit instead of the airco compressor and as such demands fabrication of the exhaust making the cheap supercharger more expensive  ;)
A flashable ECU would sure simplify things although the Speeduino parallel solution reads as practical too. Mind, at this end it needs be pretty much plug&play.

Anon  Yes, the finned stub just looks nice  ;)  Have you seen where the TTE turbo kit has the intercooler? The install manual is on here. If the plumbing is on that side anyway, it is almost too convenient not to incorporate.
The sc14 typically comes with intake/outlet fitted. The only precision fabrications needed are the mount to the engine and possibly a different pulley.  I can have thát done just 1 km. down the road.

@J88TEO Mine is pretty quick as it is (some 160 hp hauling under 900 kg*) and I would aim for very modest gains but I think the supercharger so totally befitting the Mk.3 concept. Also it is thé thing for the mountains. The uphill experience by Carolyn underlines that.

* off topic, but the reduction of rotating engine mass RÉALLY transforms the SMT. This is a biggy  :-\  concerning a supercharger.

Anyway, as observed on the backburner even behind a lightweight bonnet/ plastic windscreen, but I think this project thread uttahly übercool.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:02
Quote from: shnazzle on January 24, 2022, 07:33I'll tag a question on to this; would it be easier/possible to fit the same setup to a 1zz car where the engine was the other way around? I.e where the space in the engine bay for the unit would be on the intake side. You'd be able to leave the exhaust side bone stock right?
It may be the cheapest route to 185ish hp in the form of instant torque there is for something like a Yaris or Corolla
There's a factory supercharged 2zz on eBay atm and I was considering this again this week. Problem with the factory setup is the SC sticks forward far too much, you'd have to remove the engine bay bulkhead and most of the storage bin space for it to fit. Partly due to the sc position and also the stock intake manifold.

I've considered the best positioning and I believe an M45 would fit where the AC pump sits, pumping upward through a charge cooler and either round 180° to the stock throttle position or better into a custom intake plenum giving way more room for cooler and the correct manifold volume. Then I'd fit the throttle to the sc intake pipework.

Wouldn't require major fabrication if you cut off the stock manifold and ran some silicon connectors onto aluminium pipes to an intake housing. The AMG 63 charge cooler is a perfect size also and could probably be modified, though it's exotic stainless metal so not aluminium but no reason the intake can't be either.

And I'd pump the engine coolant back from a larger radiator through the charge cooler back to the engine rather than plumb a second system in. A big radiator will have plenty capacity and that AMG cooler won't restrict flow.

Hey I have a spare engine (pfl needs new rings), already have a M45 waiting and even fitted a big aftermarket radiator to the car last week, I'm running low on excuses. Maybe I want to keep the AC also... But talk is cheap so I'll shut up now before I talk my way into a corner [emoji6][emoji39]

Cheers
Tyler

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:05
Quote from: Gibla on January 24, 2022, 01:13Resurrecting this fascinating thread once more.

5-6 years have elapsed since you 1st did this 1zz sc conversion @Carolyn and as such, some of the details may be rather hazy in the memory.....but...If you were doing this again with the knowledge you acquired during the build, would you do anything differently?

Here I am thinking and asking purely about the mechanical side of things + assuming a suitable donor car was already available. Maybe heat management, amongst other items you may mention?

You have mentioned on another thread that a number of 2zz owners had supercharged their cars. If any of those owners who had the M45 Eaton supercharger installed would care to comment on where they had that work done + their experience of the Eaton M45 longevity, it would be helpful. Are there other superchargers worth contemplating...cost considerations apply here though!

I have been trying largely in vain to see if there is a firm that sells reconditioned Eaton 45 SC, those firms that do exist will refurbish an existing unit, maybe from e-bay, but with massive caveats that means they are unable to offer any worthwhile guarantee.

As you can probably gauge from my comments and questions, I am seriously contemplating getting another 1zz supercharged beastie(in addition to the original)....but of course, this would need to be commissioned via a willing, trustworthy source.
@Gibla I'm sure 2zz owners mostly use a Rotrex SC. Anyway a M45 is too small, need at least an M60 (Merc compressor models) or even an M90 (Lotus, but no room to swap the Lotus setup into a 2 without removing the bulkhead again).

The Rotrex is compact and easier to locate, also not too dissimilar from a turbo and more suited to the 2zz engine character.

I say all this, Toyota made a factory SC 2zz using a bigger roots style compressor, I'm not sure what make or model though. But there's one on eBay at the moment if you have a significant itch [emoji6]

Cheers
Tyler

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:07
Quote from: Petrus on May 17, 2022, 00:23Since I have deleted the airco, the option to mount an sc12/14 in that space has been in the back of my mind.
Actually mñeasured it and is should fit but the plumbing.... ::)
With the smaller alternator coming up there will be more space. Will measure again!

The photo below is how the sc14 should be mounted (lubrication) looking from above:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UhaOsbPIS._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

For me this is very much a backburner project which I will only go for it I can leave the exhaust system untouched and the OEM filter box ditto.  I would líke to fit the sc where th airco pump was and route áll the plumbing at the firewall side where it is coolest. This also leaves the option open for a small air/air intercooler as per TTE turbo or simpler still a finned alu tube.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fCQAAOSwQJZiHZmh/s-l500.jpg)


On the Mk1 AW11 Toyota fitted an SC12 with intercooler.
The n.a. engine produced 112 - 130 hp depending on market and year whereas the supercharged engine had 145 hp. This increase in output wíth intercooler is a sobering perspective.
Same horizon for the TRD Rootes type kit on the 1ZZ Corolla/Matrix (from 135 to 170 hp) and the TTE Eaton kit for the 2ZZ (from 189 to 215 hp).

Though turbo, the TTE turbo is much of the ´same´ as that is 185 hp whereas a tuned n.a. does 165/170.

Are we expecting perhaps a bit much? 

@Gibla  how do you now see it, in retrospect? And the current owner (not paid attention to where it went, sorry)?


Btw. have read and reread this thread several times and was, am, will stay in ÁWE.

I should have read all the posts first, my thoughts also.

Cheers
Tyler
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on May 27, 2022, 19:09
I'm the only one who HAS put an M45 on a 1ZZ,and make it work.  AND I can say, with certainty - you are all guessing and you are all incorrect in your assumptions.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:14


Quote from: Petrus on May 17, 2022, 12:37Thank you @Gibla.
Not going M45 as that will not fit instead of the airco compressor and as such demands fabrication of the exhaust making the cheap supercharger more expensive  ;)
A flashable ECU would sure simplify things although the Speeduino parallel solution reads as practical too. Mind, at this end it needs be pretty much plug&play.

Anon  Yes, the finned stub just looks nice  ;)  Have you seen where the TTE turbo kit has the intercooler? The install manual is on here. If the plumbing is on that side anyway, it is almost too convenient not to incorporate.
The sc14 typically comes with intake/outlet fitted. The only precision fabrications needed are the mount to the engine and possibly a different pulley.  I can have thát done just 1 km. down the road.

@J88TEO Mine is pretty quick as it is (some 160 hp hauling under 900 kg*) and I would aim for very modest gains but I think the supercharger so totally befitting the Mk.3 concept. Also it is thé thing for the mountains. The uphill experience by Carolyn underlines that.

* off topic, but the reduction of rotating engine mass RÉALLY transforms the SMT. This is a biggy  :-\  concerning a supercharger.

Anyway, as observed on the backburner even behind a lightweight bonnet/ plastic windscreen, but I think this project thread uttahly übercool.

Ok, again I should have read all the latest posts first, but had a brain dump. So M45 won't fit but SC14 would, interesting. I need to get shopping. I don't suppose you already have a SC14 in possession @Petrus and could show it at the National meet next month?

We might collaborate then.

Cheers
Tyler

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:24
Quote from: Carolyn on May 27, 2022, 19:09I'm the only one who HAS put an M45 on a 1ZZ,and make it work.  AND I can say, with certainty - you are all guessing and you are all incorrect in your assumptions.
Sorry @Carolyn nobody is questioning your finished product. And yes they are assumptions and speculations and even dreams... But that drives us forward right?

Also, I'm not averse to chopping out the bulkhead personally, just not interested in an all out 2zz SC conversion. And I've looked for the 1zz/Scion TRD kit before but hard to come by even in the US. So yes toying with ideas and clutching at straws somewhat here...

I also wondered about squeezing in a Rotrex where the AC was, that could fit. But they are too expensive even used to start messing about with such a project. For.me at least.

Cheers
Tyler

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on May 27, 2022, 19:37
Quote from: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:14@Petrus and could show it at the National meet next month?

We might collaborate then.

Cheers
Tyler



@Carolyn is the hands on expert. She has dóne it. Also she is UK based and I am not  ;)
Afaik two TRD Corolla 1ZZ kits were installed in the US. One with a ´shaved´ supercharger/manifold and no/hardly mods to the firewall. Those had rather moderate hp gains, not as much as the M45 by Carolyn.

As to the Mini/ Mercedes ones, those are Eaton ´twin screw´ type which is more efficient than the SC12/14 Rootes type which Toyota used for the AW11 and the TRD kit for the Corolla. As Carolyn proved, the M45 sweeps enough volume for the 1ZZ.
For the T-Sport Corolla TTE also fitted an Eaton to the 2ZZ.

For me it is a bee in the bonnet as imo it is thé thing for the ZZW30 but my personal pet project has developed in a different direction and though it remains at the back of my mind, is unlikely to happen because of the added weight/ rotating engine mass.
Nevertheless, if the install of the diminutive alternator works out will measure again  O:-) 
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: 1979scotte on May 27, 2022, 21:25
Quote from: MrT on May 27, 2022, 19:24Sorry @Carolyn nobody is questioning your finished product. And yes they are assumptions and speculations and even dreams... But that drives us forward right?

Also, I'm not averse to chopping out the bulkhead personally, just not interested in an all out 2zz SC conversion. And I've looked for the 1zz/Scion TRD kit before but hard to come by even in the US. So yes toying with ideas and clutching at straws somewhat here...

I also wondered about squeezing in a Rotrex where the AC was, that could fit. But they are too expensive even used to start messing about with such a project. For.me at least.

Cheers
Tyler



Don't buy a used rotrex especially if its been on a Honda. They're mega bucks but they drive so nicely. Although I think they're better on large capacity engines where the torque helps fill I'm the bottom of the rev range before the rotrex really gets going.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on May 28, 2022, 00:15
FYI seems the yanks have all the fun...

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/supercharger-on-passion-pics-p4-done-p6.14198/#post-205568

Cheers
Tyler

Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on May 28, 2022, 01:16
@MrT  here a photo of the Rotrex mounted instead of the AC compressor


(https://www.automotivating.com/Spyder/images/supercharger/rotrex5.jpg)


This can make a véry compact, light and silent install but the things are stúnningly expensive  :o
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: jvanzyl on June 2, 2022, 21:40
Quote from: MrT on May 28, 2022, 00:15FYI seems the yanks have all the fun...

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/supercharger-on-passion-pics-p4-done-p6.14198/#post-205568

Cheers
Tyler



Dude just Chuck £3k at the problem and buy the power enterprise Rotrex kit.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 5, 2022, 09:03
I didn't even know there was a zzw30 Rotrex kit out. I thought everyone talked of using a Celica kit which clashed with the bulkhead.

But too rich for me and not what I'm after, definitely more inclined towards the roots blower positive displacement mid range.

Thanks guys
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on June 5, 2022, 09:56
Quote from: MrT on June  5, 2022, 09:03I didn't even know there was a zzw30 Rotrex kit out. I thought everyone talked of using a Celica kit which clashed with the bulkhead.

But too rich for me and not what I'm after, definitely more inclined towards the roots blower positive displacement mid range.

Thanks guys

The Eaton remains the most efficient solution for a power upgrade matching the 1ZZ characteristics and the Carolyn solution is proven to wórk.

The TRD supercharger kit for the 1ZZ would have been an überneat readymade solution for TRD/TTE but it was rather iffy to make it fit. Rather telling that they thought the better of it and TTE Turbo it was.

Thus; Mini Eaton rules.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 5, 2022, 10:42
I'm not too familiar with the TTE kit but I believe BBE/S (?) Motorsport TVS300 something kit was a copy of sorts. Difficult to find and about as expensive as a Rotrex kit if you can find one.

Nice thing was that it had a cast manifold and mounted the SC below in place of the AC which is compact and I believe all fitted behind the zzw30 firewall. I'd love to find or build something similar.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 5, 2022, 12:26
Damn, the Power Enterprise kit mounts behind the engine beside the exhaust manifold anyway, I'm not keen on that unless I were adamant I kept the AC but I can just crack a window or replace my soft top. Plus the SC has inlet and outlet pipes welded on so difficult to repurpose some day. Shame.

https://youtu.be/QzuG1HwJz0I

So my search continues to find or build a BBE type kit including structural manifold with integrated charge cooler.. ambitious no doubt  ;)
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Gibla on June 5, 2022, 12:31
@MrT contact @MattPerformance by pm, he may have something to interest you
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on June 5, 2022, 13:47
Very far out in the left field is a G60 G-Lader. Those are available refurbished for none too outrageous money. It is lightweight and compact enough to fit where the AC sits. It would not need a charger cooler although you could fit it a la TTE turbo cooler.
The output increase is moderate but instant.
It looks to be the solution needing by far the least modifications, but probably a stillborn because it is all exclusively VAG oriented.
All theorising pipe dreams ;-)

Apart from one little known TRD supercharger mod the Carolyn Eaton is the only extensively documented supercharger install which wórks.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 5, 2022, 14:03
If I had the money this is a potential bargain! Sharing the love  ;)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225014550170
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on June 6, 2022, 08:58
Quote from: MrT on June  5, 2022, 14:03If I had the money

I do but even taken that thus out of the equation, all engine tuning has downsides. Even reducing engine rotating mass has a ´price´.

The ebay one is sub-ideal btw.

On the Rotrex there is quíte a bit on Spyderchat btw.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on June 6, 2022, 09:08
Quote from: Petrus on June  6, 2022, 08:58I do but even taken that thus out of the equation, all engine tuning has downsides. Even reducing engine rotating mass has a ´price´.

The ebay one is sub-ideal btw.

On the Rotrex there is quíte a bit on Spyderchat btw.

The eBay item isn't suitable for the zzw30 chassis but has all the parts needed at very reduced cost subject to final bidding, that was my point. Would need a mounting solution for which I could consider the AC location if I were inclined to try using a Rotrex, but as I said for less money and daily driveability (low-mid range torque) I'd prefer the Roots/Eaton SC and I have an M45 waiting patiently...
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: tatieu on July 11, 2022, 21:07
Quote from: Petrus on May 28, 2022, 01:16@MrT  here a photo of the Rotrex mounted instead of the AC compressor


(https://www.automotivating.com/Spyder/images/supercharger/rotrex5.jpg)


This can make a véry compact, light and silent install but the things are stúnningly expensive  :o
Do you have other pics of this setup ???
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Petrus on July 12, 2022, 12:05
Quote from: tatieu on July 11, 2022, 21:07Do you have other pics of this setup ???

https://www.automotivating.com/Spyder/supercharger.html
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MidshipMatt on February 2, 2024, 11:11
Hi all, sorry to revive an old thread, just wanted to say this supercharger kit lives on.

I bought it off Matt Lee Feb 2023, it has spent the last year sitting on a shelf in my garage and I've now started fitting it.

I came across this thread last night after some googling on maf positions and soon realised hang on a minute, this is where everything I have was born and subsequently read the whole thing start to end.
The supercharger itself requires refurbing, but I have another on the way.

So far the last few weekends have been spent making a complete custom exhaust, originally I was going to mate it to the original backbox flange position just to keep the cost down on materials, but ultimately that would have been a comprimise on what I wanted and also wanted to quieten down the exhaust I had a bit.

A couple of questions I have though, if those responsible can remember (apologies I can't remember names);

The maf tube mentioned in the thread is the oem one, the one I have appears to be a generic ebay item and of smaller diameter. When tuning, was there a reason the maf tube was changed or is it a case of a previous owner has decided to change for reasons unknown?

Also, regarding a bypass valve and the bov, everything I've read says maf before charger bypass valve needed between outlet and inlet downstrean of maf, however I have no bypass valve, but do have the 50mm bov also mentioned, the bov just vents to atmosphere. Is this the way it was when it was finished and tuned?
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on February 3, 2024, 23:25
@MidshipMatt that bought the superblue kit from a chap called Matt.

What are the chances of that?

Have not gone back and re-read the 36 pages, but I know @Carolyn had the self assembled zorst side sorted when the kit was one the car she built.

No idea if you have the every nut n bolt. But if you have read it all, you will know as much anyone wise bar Carolyn. (and or Jonbill)

In terms of first opening posts, that has to be up there in terms of randomness. In a good way.
Hopefully the spirit of superblue lives on.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MidshipMatt on February 4, 2024, 20:28
@Ardent yeah I have the complete setup, making a complete exhaust was just something I wanted to do, personal preference sort of thing and what better excuse than to finally start bolting everything up for the supercharger and make it fit round that too.

It was from reading the whole thread and looking at what I have that made me question have a couple of things been changed from what @Carolyn and @jonbill put together and tuned for, such as the oem maf tube and airbox, but the parts in the box I have are a generic maf tube of a smaller diameter than oem and a cone filter. Similar case with the bov, I have the 50mm bov jonbill mentioned swapping to, but no parts or provision in the inlet and outlet for a bypass valve.

Just little bits but bits that can make all the difference.

I'm hoping they see this and can remember what was done. I don't want to go changing anything on that side of things after reading the difficulties in it all coming together in the first place.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Ardent on February 4, 2024, 20:32
Quote from: MidshipMatt on February  4, 2024, 20:28@Ardent
Just little bits but bits that can make all the difference.
So true
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: Carolyn on February 5, 2024, 08:37
I'm not happy about what happened to that car, so I am very reluctant to get involved all over again. 

When it left us it had the OEM airbox (inverted and rotated through 90 degrees)and MAF. As I recall the Speeduino ECU did not use the maf, it used an inlet air temp sensor, a manifold pressure sensor and a  broadband O2 sensor.

The exhaust took some working out and it was what was required to accommodate the supercharger.

There was no bypass valve. Just the 50mm BOV, which worked fine.  We left the MAF in place as it filled the hole and gave us a home for the MAF wiring.

You did not, it seems get the whole kit, which comes as no surprise.

I'm afraid that's as far as I'm prepared to go with any assistance, but I wish you well with the project.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MidshipMatt on February 5, 2024, 13:06
Hi Carolyn, thank you for taking the time to reply and answer my queries.
I will have another dig through the box of bits I was given but it seems as though I'm missing a bit more than I initially thought.
I don't know any history about the original car etc.
I saw the "complete bolt-on supercharger kit" for sale 12 months ago, thought that sounds great and now I've got the time I'm just trying to piece the box of bits together, which is how I ended up coming across this thread.
Title: Re: Mini supercharger on 1zz
Post by: MrT on March 23, 2024, 11:52
@MidshipMatt will you do a build thread of your SC journey? I'd be interested in following and working things out with you. Interested to see your exhaust solutions also. Thanks